Series - Pagan misconceptions about Paganism - Dogma

[takibisin]

As to some of the comment responses I am seeing to this vid: Oh my, so much hate. sigh.... I really had hoped to come back to something besides flat out trolling and hate. That is what made me leave in the first place. He has expressed his opinion. If you disagree, good for you! You have a mind of your own. But please, express your opinion is a less hateful/trolling manner. helps no one, hurts you. Keep an eye on that blood pressure hardcore youtubers! I see heart attacks in the immediate future

[mumsthewitch]

So good to see you back. The word dogma in essence means structure ergo the way we practice is a dogma Got that from the get go. The trick is not to get dogmatic towards others with our particular practice.

[maggoli67]

Interesting. 

[JacobDanielRay]

When is your next video? I can't wait for it.

[illiezeulette]

Well said. I am eclectic as far as formulating my own belief system, not adhering to any one particular established tradition in whole, but I adhere to my own system with all of my heart and soul. I think that many ex-Christian Pagans tend to confuse "dogma" with "the dogmatic teaching of religion X that religion X is the only true religion," which is a false association, of course.

[athairfiachdubh]

@illiezeulette Thank you so very much for actually understanding that. so many "pagans" seem to think because they do not like something, such as a word in this case, that it then MUST be wrong. Nice to see others who have gotten past blind hate.

[illiezeulette]

@athairfiachdubh No problem. I'm a religion major at university and will probably become a minister or chaplain of some sort... I better get this stuff straight! Anyway, keep up the great work. (:

[JacobDanielRay]

"Something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet" (dogma, Merriam-Webster). Adding on to the definition, or tenets. Your video did go over this, even though you did not quote word by word. I applaud you for that and agree as well. I follow as well. Some of which come from the RDNA, Searls O'Dubhain and so on. So I do have dogma. Just wanted to add some two cents because you are right.

-Blessed Be

[dumoktheartist]

I had been meaning to watch this one, I just never got to it, great Vid.

[AncientWisdomSpirit]

if pagans should follow dogma then aren't you saying that all neo-pagan and eclectic pagans are false pagans? I mean if you're following a pagan dogma then mixing different paths would obviously be a faux pas and basically you've insulted most pagans who are smart enough to see this. This is disgusting and really it's something I would expect from a christian, jew or muslim NOT a pagan.

[athairfiachdubh]

@AncientWisdomSpirit Actually no. Of course that was the point of the video pointing out that Dogma is not a bad word. Funny thing is that all I stated is that at a certain religions core there is Dogma that must be followed. Did not say anything about not being able to mix anything. THAT is a misconception about Dogma AND paganism. Why people did not take the time to see this is beyond me. Funny how people cannot see past a single word to the core.

[AncientWisdomSpirit]

@athairfiachdubh Part of the definition of dogma states "something that should not be diverged from" so if you look at eclectic paganism you quikly realize that all eclectic pagans diverge from one dogma to another and if you knew what you were talking about you would see this. This is not a misconception this is your misconception of the word dogma. Religions who follow dogma do not worship other gods or take teachings from other beliefs because that is a breach of their dogma, get it?

[athairfiachdubh]

@AncientWisdomSpirit You know, this is one of the first semi coherent disagreements I have received on this video. Thank you for actually having something to actually say other than "Nuh-uh". As to my answer on this I will be doing another video as to the responses I have received on this one and I will be more than happy to respond to this on in the video I will be doing then. Would just take too many comment boxes. After which if you still do not agree we can debate then. Deal?

[athairfiachdubh]

@AncientWisdomSpirit And yes, I understand what you are getting at and have a response for it. It will be a few days probably before I get to my answer, however, I will answer it. Family takes first priority.

[wikedwitch80]

@AncientWisdomSpirit The definition that I found states dogma as a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed. So it depends on the rules of the religion. If the rules of the religion prohibit you from mixing pantheons and etc., then you would not be following it's dogma. However, if the religion allows followers to mix pantheons or etc. then they would still be following it.

[wikedwitch80]

@AncientWisdomSpirit Wicca is one religion that takes from other sources. If a Wiccan uses Christian mythology they are not breaking the rules or dogma. If a Christian that adheres to the ten commandments worships other deities, then the Christian would be breaking the rules. Just because the religion that you are taking from prohibits the act from it's followers, does not mean that the taker's religion prohibits the act. Dogma is just another word for rules that applies to religion.

[wikedwitch80]

@AncientWisdomSpirit For example, a religion could have the rule that you can do whatever feels right to you. That is still dogma, but it is very loose dogma.

[AmargeinConan]

I love this video - it was ironic watching this because I was having a dicussion with someone about this very same topic *Grins* It is true any and every belief has Dogma in it but sadly many do not see this as they are blinded by various things to the truth. Better to walk upon solid ground than to try and rebel blindly against the quicksand.

I find it funny reading the comments and seeing how badly some people just don't get it.

[Hope2321]

Hey dude, liked your video, a good point on dogma, no matter where you go there will always be a guidline, even in everyday work! But im just curious, what do you mean by people by saying they're "making it up as you go along?" like do u mean people just make it up for themselves or is there more meaning behind it?

[athairfiachdubh]

@Hope2321 What I am saying is that without core belief (dogma) they are making it up as they go along. Without a core there is nothing to hold everything together.

[Neopagan2007]

I agree with most of what you said.

[magsevyn]

How hilarious! This was meant to be funny, wasn't it? LMAO Belief is "making it up as you go along". My goodness, I surely hope this was meant to be funny because ordering people to believe a certain way is a waste of breath and only done by those who have a messiah complex. The more I listen to this, the more I realize this was meant to be funny. Noone could rationalize in this complex manner and take them seriously. Thanks for the giggle, it is a strange sort of humor.

[athairfiachdubh]

@magsevyn Actually that is not even close to what I said. Having no core belief is making it up as you go along. As for a Messiah complex, no, I am not ordering anyone to believe anything. The point of the video is to stop people from thinking that belief IS making it up as you go along. Of course I made that plain so you are either dense OR you are trying to troll. Either way you fail.

[HELPIHATEMYCOUNTRY]

yes the world needs fundamentalist pagans????? lmao who cares man?? all you'll accomplish here is dividing pagans and most likely getting people to hate you. Good job

[athairfiachdubh]

@HELPIHATEMYCOUNTRY Dogma has nothing to do with fundametalism. It is the core of a belief system. If people hate the truth, and me for speaking it, then that is their problem. I never said they MUST believe what I do or that they MUST follow as I do. Of course after looking at your page I see that you are yet another moron who cannot understand complex ideas.

[chemicalangel3]

You bring up a great point here and i applaud you for talking about this. I understand what your saying here and i agree with you. Paganism aswell as any other religion or faith has it's own Dogma. If you follow a religion, you are following a set of rules that come along with it. Welcome back...looking forward to your series! :)

[athairfiachdubh]

@chemicalangel3 Thank you dear. Still debating between the next two topics. I do not know how many topics I will end up doing in this series but I have a few others. Thank you for your continued support. Blessings.

[gloamingschild]

all i have to say, is: I wish I had seen this when I was 18 and just apprenticing myself to the Craft, even though I might not have gotten it then. Thanks for putting this up!

[athairfiachdubh]

@gloamingschild HEH! I wish that I had understood it years ago when I first started as well. Thank you for watching.

[Crowinblack2001]

Welcome back to the tubs brother / friend. As you vary well know I 100% agree with you on this matter and I have said the same thing to people.

[athairfiachdubh]

@Crowinblack2001 What I think is funny is how many people missed the point. They hear the word Dogma and believe that it is a bad thing. Funny how a word has power, especially to those who do not understand it. Miss talking to you guys but the little one takes up a large amount of time. Give my love to Charity.

[Crowinblack2001]

@athairfiachdubh, Ya little ones can eat up most of one's time that's for sure, and I will bud. :-)

[PaganBorn79]

I don't like dogma because I don't like putting limitations on anything. However you made a good point about evolutionists(and I am one, I'm also agnostic) The only reason I call myself an eclectic pagan is because it's as loose a term as I can use to describe myself without saying I'm merely spirtual. I don't describe myself as just "spiritual" because most of what I am comes from european pagan dogma (I just see deities another way) but I'm not confined by pagan dogma so WTF am I?

[athairfiachdubh]

@PaganBorn79 Honestly, it makes you an agnostic evolutionist. That was the point of my video. Dogma is not a dirty word it is something that sets down the guidelines for a certain type of belief. That is all. If one feels constrained by a particular belief system then it is not for them, hence they cannot follow the Dogma that is all. I could go around saying I am a Catholic, however, I am not due to the fact that I am not one who can follow their beliefs due to my own.

[PaganBorn79]

@athairfiachdubh Yeah but wether I believe in evolution or wether there is a physical god or goddess doesn't have anything to do with my spirituality because you can interpret these dogmas a hundred different ways right? We don't have a bible to follow so how can we be certain which dogmas are real and which ones are 20th century cult imagination?? I do understand what you are saying and I do agree to an extent but I see it a different way which is fine by me.

[loumil4]

Hailsa athairfiachdubh, I personally feel the Asatru Folk Assembly and the Odinic Rite developed the virtues/charges as a summary.Be this as it may; I do not feel, as a heathen, that those lists are the for-all to heathenism. For the means in which one must live is stated foremost within the havamal and second throughout the multitude of stories. (for those ill-read of heathenism.)The regulations also will vary dependent upon Which Hof you attend. (agreed dogmatism is everywhere)

Frith,

Lou

[athairfiachdubh]

@loumil4 Agreed on the 9 noble virtues point. Was only using it as a point of reference as to types of Dogma seen within paganism, however, thank you for pointing it out. I should have been more clear on that point. Even though I do agree with the virtues. However, that is my personal Dogma. Should have used the Havamal as my reference but how many would actually know that over the Virtues who are not read into Heathenism?

[loumil4]

@athairfiachdubh Unfortunitly very few would of understood the reference if placed more so into the stories; so within that the use of the virtues is more grounded.

[Mysticblue1212]

How much should I bet you will get a lot of Pagans will get all pissy now. I am not sure if I understand why. I may or may not agree with you on this, I don't see why I or anyone else should get a bee up their ass about it. Anyway, I will be watching. Glad to see you again. I missed your videos.

[athairfiachdubh]

@Mysticblue1212 HEH!  I would not bet too much. Already gotten a bunch of hatemail for this. I knew I would. People do not seem to want to take responsibility for their beliefs so it goes to say that most people do not want to be told that there are rules of conduct for belief. My oh my would life not be easy if we could just do what ever the hell we wanted? Blessings. Still want to know if you do agree though.

[Mysticblue1212]

@athairfiachdubh I actually do agree with you. Even for those that just consider themselves "spiritual". I guess if I believed anyone didn't have dogma that would be Athiests or Agnostics. Oh shit, here comes my ass pounding...

[athairfiachdubh]

@Mysticblue1212 HEH! The hilarious thing on this one is all the dislikes and hate mail I have been getting. I knew it would happen. Lost a few subs as well. (shrug) As for your "ass pounding" I seriously doubt anyone has the balls to take on the old guard on here. We might not always agree but we care for our own.

[OnTheFence31]

@Mysticblue1212 I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you could say whatever the fuck you want and your fat ass would be safe from any pounding.......From any man, women or beast

[Mysticblue1212]

@OnTheFence31 Maybe you should stay out on that limb till you have a penny or two so you can buy a clue. I swear, the genius spewing from you is just incredible! You can't attack what I have to say so you have to go to my page and see I am fat so you attack. Sorry but I and everyone else am aware of that. So, just how does that effect what I have to say? Maybe you should grow a pair and make your own videos. Until then, step off dick!

[UlfrSkald]

makin notes for a response

[UlfrSkald]

crap you're gonna make me put videos up dammit.....ass

[athairfiachdubh]

@UlfrSkald HAH! I win! I ALWAYS WIN!

[LiberAnarchy]

I completely agree. Great video. And I would say its ok to be w/o dogma in a religious sense, but I prefer people to be honest about it, to say "I don't know." or "I'm reserving judgement." or "I'm agnostic." or "I'm still seeking." etc. And it is quite incorrect to say that pagans do not have dogma.

[whitewolfheathen]

I've met some heathens that didn't follow the nine noble virtues. It was funny because they wanted to feed into the PC crowd but did not want to follow ancestry is better than universalism.

[ShadowArtist]

There may be some idividuals, groups/trads that do push/impose dogma (i.e. these sets of princples are "Abosulute truth and superior to all other truths and beliefs and if you don't follow them your a bad person!" as such, but they aren't universally followed by all Pagans; it's like, there isn't a "Pagan Vatican".

[ShadowArtist]

hm. What universally accepted, over-arching chuch of pagan authority is enforcing a distinct set of principles or doctrine that is saying it it true and absolute above all other religions(i.e. dogma)? While I do see certain hardline Traditions/individuals attempt to impose dogma. I'm pretty sure there aren't Wiccan or Asatru Churches with priests telling followers to go forth and push the idea that Wiccan beliefs or Asatru believes are absolute truth and superior to all other truths and beliefs.

[athairfiachdubh]

@ShadowArtist That is the point. Dogma does not NEED to be pushed. People do push their dogma, however, that is not what it is. Yes, it a particular religions Dogma may say to go out and "push the idea". That is not what Dogma is however. Hence why I did this video about the misconception of Dogma. Dogma is the CORE of a particular belief, not an action.

[ShadowArtist]

@athairfiachdubh I respectfully disagree, the core of belief is just a concept, a set of ideas. In my view "dogma" is when a set of beliefs that has a core element that does not allow acceptance or understanding of other beliefs or truths, it includes the element of "this is absolute law/truth and superior to all others, and all others are false."

[athairfiachdubh]

@ShadowArtist HEH! Everyone is always free to disagree.

[athairfiachdubh]

@ShadowArtist As well, when did I bring up a ruling body of anything? Dogma is not something that is enforced by any ruling authority, unless you take the Gods into account which by your response I am guessing you are not. Dogma is the core of your beliefs. That is all.

[ShadowArtist]

@athairfiachdubh when a set of beliefs that is claimed to be absolute truth by a Church/organization then in my view that's when that set of beliefs *becomes* dogma. Without a centralized church/organization, In my view that set of beliefs is only dogma when a person/group pushes that set of beliefs as the one and only absolute truth.

[whitewolfheathen]

@ShadowArtist things like the ten commandments and the Nicene Creed are dogma, it is not absolute truth because therein is the fallacy. There is no absolute truth and absolute truth is certainty not dogmatic, it is the commandments that come from the belief that cause it to be dogma.

[ShadowArtist]

@whitewolfheathen when a person imposes whatever they think is the "absolute truth" it is a form of dogma in my view. The Nicene Creed and the 10 Commandments are dogma because they still contain/imply that those doctrines are absolute truth and law above all others and must be enforced and imposed upon all irregardless of the truths and beliefs of other religions and spiritual paths. It's the idea they set down as "unquestionable truth, and only the right truth" that makes them dogma IMV

[PeterThenn]

@ShadowArtist

There are multiple definitions of dogma. He is using definition #3. You are using definition #2.

dog·ma

1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.

2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true.

3. A principle or belief or a group of them:

[athairfiachdubh]

@PeterThenn Actually I am kinda using them all but mostly #3. Fore instance Crowley set down bylaws and to be a follower of what he said in a Dogmatic sense it would be under #1. As well as #2 I am saying that for each of us the truth is our own Dogma.

[ShadowArtist]

@PeterThenn I understand that. I still disagree with using such a loaded term as a blanket label for all neo-pagan sets of belief. Since there are pagans that don't consider their principles to be absolute truth above all other truths and beliefs, and are usually open to accept and understand different beliefs and paradigms (not all, but some do).