Suffering and Joy in Evangelizing Mormons

[lilbeaveymac]

ive pulled at least 2 away from mormonism

[AR333]

I've spoken to over 20 missionaries and not one of them knows a thing about the historical Jesus. Not one of them has critically examined their worldview. All of them swallow wholesale the story of Lehi. None of them are open to listening to professionals in any field if that field has issues with their beliefs, such as the global flood. All of them believe that "prayer" constitute a viable method to answering such questions.

[majinish]

If the numbers at the pageants were going down odds are it's because people don't care to listen to people like you & anyone could see why. Of course parents don't want you talking to their kids. All you do is yell at everyone. Yes, we LDS are Christians. Seriously, I never take evangelicals seriously because you give no reason. You believe in what, 60% of the Bible? We LDS believe in the Bible's teachings 100%.

[barbados199]

I really enjoyed this, thanks!

[musicgladiator]

Rob Sivulka....what if...just WHAT IF, in the end, you're completely wrong. And Mormons are right? What then? Would you accept that if an angel himself told you? Probably not.

[RSivulka]

@musicgladiator: If I'm wrong & LDS are right, then I go to the 2nd heaven (the terrestrial kingdom). If I'm right, then you're on your way to eternal torment in hell. The apostle Paul said that even if an angel were to given another gospel, you weren't to listen to him (Gal. 1:6-9). Mormonism is another damnable gospel.

[majinish]

@RSivulka Wrong just as you usually are Siv. We LDS are aware of verses like that which critics attempt to throw out there and use. You claim Moroni brought another gospel. Not so. He brought the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ to be preached to all nations, kindred, and tongue (Revelation 14:6). The Bible proves over and over that the Book of Mormon is true.

[majinish]

@RSivulka In the videos you tell at pageants to force people to hear you yet you rarely let any LDS talk to you. The reason is simply because you fear being wrong. People like you claim you do it out of love. That's a load of crap. Saying that is simply an attempt to justify anything you say. You say it's out of love yet you seek to destroy our faith. That's not love, you simply show hatred in a different way.

[Chinaculiacan]

@majinish You still blind? I thought you got something out of my post and your church history, I thought Jesus would touch your heart? but how can he? your believes are stronger than the facts we've shown you! Hey even Jesus rebuked the religious for their believes, and if he Jesus, rebukes you, don't be surprise.

[majinish]

@Chinaculiacan Haven't been blind at all. Jesus has touched my heart so many times. I have no reason to worry about being rebuked. I believe in Jesus Christ's true teachings, not your version of his teachings. What you want has nothing to do with Christ, you simply want anyone who's a real Christian, Mormons, to believe whatever you say and see things your way. No thanks. We prefer Jesus' way, not yours.

[Chinaculiacan]

@majinish If is the Jesus that had 3 wives the Mormon apostle Orson taought, I feel sorry for you! but if is the Jesus of Nazareth, the one that didn't have 3 wives then i'm with you. And please I want no one anyone to believe what I say, but to look at the Instructions. The Bible. Tell me? I think I asked you if you could find a World setting for the BOM, have you find it yet?

[majinish]

@Chinaculiacan That was Orson's opinion, not doctrine.

[Chinaculiacan]

@majinish You want doctrine? here it is. There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188. God is increasing in Knowledge (Joseph Smith) Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, p 120; God has a form ofa man (Joseph Smith Journal of Discourses, vol 6, p. 3. What happened to the savior being our mediator? or God being God being from the begining and the end? Psalm 90:2. What excuse r u going 2 give me excuse of a mormon?

[majinish]

@Chinaculiacan Orson Hyde a prophet, he was an apostle. While an apostle is someone of position, the prophet is the one who declares doctrine. You haven't given doctrine.

[Chinaculiacan]

@majinish OMG> Another excuse.

[majinish]

@Chinaculiacan No matter what we say you and other critics always claim its an excuse. What I said isn't an excuse, its a fact. Only the prophet can declare what is doctrine. If you don't want the truthful answer, and obviously you don't, then don't bother asking questions. I'm not going to answer your way, I give the honest answer.

[Chinaculiacan]

@majinish OMG another excuse, just another Mormon.

[majinish]

@Chinaculiacan See what I mean? Your ignorance has blinded you. You didn't get an answer you wanted so you claim its an excuse.

[dorisfenella]

@majinish Some people are just satanic don´t waste your time with them.

[Chinaculiacan]

@majinish Your doctrine is full of holes, black holes. Your church history is dark and evil, it doesn't matter how you painted, slide it, or cut it, you prophets apostles and so on, were and are sons of vipers, who have put themselves before the savior, it doesn' matter how nice you might put the answer, your history is ugly when it comes to God and his place. Your history proves it very clearly.

[majinish]

@Chinaculiacan Didn't I just go over this? The things you said aren't doctrine. Obviously you don't know our church history. No prophet or apostle has ever put themselves above Jesus Christ. The only thing evil here is people like you that purposely rebel against Jesus Christ and his church and teachings. We put God the Father and Jesus Christ above all. You think you can intimidate any member of Jesus Christ's church into believing your personal way. (continuted)

[majinish]

@Chinaculiacan I'm not someone you can intimidate. All critics seem to think we don't know Jesus Christ's church's history. Guess what, I do. That's something critics don't expect. You want us to agree with you regardless if your statements are full of crap and they usually are just as you've demonstrated. You just called Jesus Christ evil as well as his church.

[Chinaculiacan]

@majinish You want to see someone who puts himself before Jesus Christ? here it is.Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.

[Chinaculiacan]

@majinish The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. You have ignorad the bible verses I gave you contradicting your prophets last days, ur church history, u talk about blindness? u wouldn't be able to see. You poor thing. Remember his coming and coming soon.

[majinish]

@Chinaculiacan Is this and the other the only part of the quote you're going to give? You forgot the part where Joseph Smith was reading from 2 Corinthians 11. He applied this chapter to his time to illustrate what was going on. By the way, Jesus himself said he'd have followers that would do greater works than what he did. I haven't ignored any part of the Bible nor do I intend to. (continued)

[darkestyousibug]

@majinish what is this greater works? can Joseph Smith's blood save us from sin?

[majinish]

@Chinaculiacan I believe in what the Bible really teaches, not what you claim it teaches. I don't ignore the church history. I proved that already. When you bring up a quote make sure you don't pick and choose what part to use. Yes, I talk about how blind you are to the truth. I do know Jesus Christ will return and being a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings I'm looking forward to it.

[Chinaculiacan]

@majinish What are you going to say next? that u need a passport to be with Jesus and God? LOL DUDE. (Brigham Young) From the day that the priesthood was take from the earth to the winding up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith Junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are, I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. Journal of Discourses 7:289 also cited in ensign, June 1994. LOL ON U

[majinish]

@Chinaculiacan The laugh is on you. Have you even looked at this quote and also read the Bible? Whenever you give quotes you should really try giving more than just a selected part. In 1 Corinthians 6:2 we learn that the followers of Jesus Christ, the saints, will judge the world. This includes Joseph Smith who was a prophet of God.

[dorisfenella]

@majinish She autoproclaim a true christian and also said "I would have liked to killl Joseph Smith with my own hands"

Do you see the whole thing?

She is a YTG

[majinish]

@Chinaculiacan The article doesn't imply Joseph Smith is as important as Jesus but the Bible teaches we're to accept the teachings of the prophets and apostles of God. Remember what Jesus said to the disciples in Matthew 10? The judgment of Sodom and Gumorah would be more tolerable than the judgment of those who rejected the teachings of the disciples, anyone sent by Christ. Jesus' disciples teach Jesus' teachings which aren't his own but the Father's teachings.

[granitelocal]

I don’t find your brand of religion any more palatable than the Mormons. It is all still nonsense and a waste of time. It is still some guy talking like he knows the will of some nonexistent invisible friend. It is still some guy talking of testimony of anything that can be testified about. It is the same old drivel and nonsense that the Mos waste people’s time and energy with. Go volunteer for something useful to society. I couldn't stand listening to the guy.

[RSivulka]

@granitelocal: I don't find your brand of agnosticism any more palatable than any other unbelieving version. It's nonsense & a waste of time. Repent & become a follower of Christ, who historically proved Himself via prophecy & miracles.

[granitelocal]

@RSivulka I am not agnostic. I am atheist. I am not wasting my time on anything other than enjoying life and educating myself in truth rather than fictitious mythology. You crack me up with that Christian repentance, guilt nonsense. I enjoy a guilt free life free of religion. Life is good.

[RSivulka]

@granitelocal: I don't find your brand of atheism any more palatable than any other unbelieving version. It's nonsense & a waste of time. It's fictitious mythology. Your sense of goodness is no better than your mere likes, but as far as I know, that can extend to rape, child abuse, stealing, etc. There's no objective badness here. Simply matter bumping into more matter w/ no ultimate purpose to life, let alone morality. Most people know better, & you should repent from your delusion.

[granitelocal]

@RSivulka Equating morality and purpose in life with religion is a common fallacy of those who call themselves religious and condemn the lives of non-believers of religious fantasy.

[RSivulka]

@granitelocal: If it is a common fallacy, you are yet to demonstrate it. As Dostoevsky said, "If God is dead, all is permissible." In other words, everything (life purpose as well as morality) becomes relative to something or another, since again, all we are is matter in motion. Since almost all of us assume an objective basis to such judgments, it seems more likely that non-religious belief is a fantasy.

[granitelocal]

@RSivulka If we are going to quote, how about this: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” – Richard Dawkins

[RSivulka]

@granitelocal: If you're a little open-minded: epsociety[dot]org/library/arti­cles[dot]asp?pid=45

[granitelocal]

@RSivulka I see no correlation between religion and morality. Christians kill doctors, persecute gays, protest fallen heroes and blow up buildings. The Crusades murdered millions and the Puritans killed Indians and their own as witches. Queen “Bloody” Mary burned and tortured 400 of her subjects as heretics. The Christian church stifled science and progress, tortured and killed their own and enslaved the Africans.

[granitelocal]

@RSivulka Actually, Dostoevsky didn’t say that. One of the characters in his book said that, but yes, he was a Christian. There were many conversations in that novel.

[RSivulka]

@granitelocal: Yes, I realize a character in his novel said it, nonetheless, it's true. If there is no ultimate justice or objective morality or a design plan of the way things ought to be, then all the atrocities you mention turn out to be simply your or your groups own personal gripes. No group (Christians as well as atheists) are exempt from atrocities. If you want a good debate on the necessity of God for the grounding of morality: youtube[dot]com/watch?v=2xkghh­MoCzU

[RSivulka]

@granitelocal: BTW, this lecture was a pep talk for fellow Christian evangelists. So your comments are as out of place as me criticizing a music video not speaking to my thoughts on evangelism. But I guess this fits with the mindset of most atheists! If you really want a serious defense for the Christian Faith, then get a hold of William Lane Craig's "Reasonable Faith" or J. P. Moreland's "Scaling the Secular City."

[RSivulka]

BTW, I was talking to another professor at our June Ex-Mormon Meetup, who happened to be X-LDS, & he was speaking of how emasculated the LDS Church is. It was works by John Eldredge that helped him to see the God-given potential for being "Wild at Heart."

[TsarIvanIV]

So its the women's fault and we women aren't warriors? Yeah right dude. Look up the history of women missionaries and saints sometime, they out-man you 100%.

I liked the sermon up until this point, but when it comes to this feminization bull, as if femininity is somehow weak and limp, I'm out.

[aaronshaf2006]

@TsarIvanIV From what I remember, he didn't say feminization was the fault of women. It's the fault of men who won't step up. In any case, chill out and don't miss out on the beauty of God-designed complementarianism.

[TsarIvanIV]

@aaronshaf2006 Nevertheless a weak, impotent church is not the result of feminization, it's the result of laziness. Femininity does not necessarily breed weakness and masculinity does not necessarily breed strength. You're a cool guy, Aaron, but I hope you don't miss out on the beauty of God-designed egalitarianism. ;)

[RSivulka]

@aaronshaf2006: To clarify, feminization of the church is the result of there simply being more women these days in the church & that entails a certain expression of reality. Whose fault it is is a complex issue & beyond the point of my talk. My point is that love is expressed differently by men & women. (Again, I'm speaking in generalities.) When men are absent from the church, then a certain expression is going to be dominant, & for others to say there's no difference is just myopic.

[aaronshaf2006]

@RSivulka Thanks for the clarification.

[RSivulka]

@TsarIvanIV: If you don't see the generalities of women as being nurturing rather than conquering, then you're simply out of touch with reality. Of course there are warrior-women and of course there are nurturing men, but God's given strengths unique to each sex, which comes in handy for the rearing of kids. Gender is a factor in how men & women experience reality. Neither is inferior to the other, but just different. The basis for this is primarily the huge chemical difference between sexes.

[TsarIvanIV]

@RSivulka I never said that. My problem is with the notion that the reason the church has slowed down in America is due to an over-abundance of the nurturing element. Is there a lot of that now due to the majority of women? Yes, but it's not to blame for the lack of conversions or work. That's to blame on a general laziness and lack of vigor on the part of both men AND women. For instance, the church in China is by far more populated by women and conversions there are skyrocketing.

[RSivulka]

@TsarIvanIV: You bring up a good point with China. My point is that here in America I think more can be said for why "non-rock-a-boatis" is in play in our culture rather than simple laziness. If a church is dominated by a view of love that is nurturing AND looks down on other conquering expressions, then males are either going to fall in line or be outcasts. If I've got this right, then that limits various expressions of gender in our society.

[TsarIvanIV]

@RSivulka I think it has far more to do with pluralism and post-modern discomfort concerning ultimate truth than it has to do with the prominence of gender. I also think it has a lot to do with a culture that expects women to "naturally" be more "spiritual" and excuses men from involvement because Christianity has never been considered a very masculine religion from the get-go (see Celsus). Men aren't becoming outcasts in a dystopian scenario, they're just staying home and sleeping in.

[RSivulka]

@TsarIvanIV: "Postmodernists are taking aim at Enlightenment concepts of rationality and science, debunking them as expressions of Western, white, male power. In feminist algebra, the common idiom of "attacking" mathematical problems is denounced as oppressive and violent. In feminist biology, the concept of DNA as the "master molecule" directing the cell's activities is denounced as a product of masculine bias. ... continued on next post

[RSivulka]

@TsarIvanIV: continuing the quote... "The scientific method itself is criticized for incorporating sexist overtones of male dominance and control, which justify the "rape of the earth." Feminist Sandra Harding is notorious for suggesting that Newton's principles of mechanics should be called Newton's "rape manual." Women have often introduced helpful new perspectives into scholarship,... continued in last post of 3

[RSivulka]

@TsarIvanIV: part 3 of 3... "but here I'm talking about a radical, ideological feminism that works hand-in-glove with postmodernism and multiculturalism in debunking the very idea of rationality and objectivity (Nancy Pearcey, "Total Truth, Liberating Christianity from Its Cultural Captivity" [Crossway], 113)." So I think there's much more to this story. When this thinking becomes prominent, it's no wonder guys would rather stay home & watch the ball game.

[TsarIvanIV]

@RSivulka You know, I think now is when I withdraw. Youtube isn't the place for this kind of discussion, and from your massive quotation I'm beginning to think that further discussion will only divide us rather than draw us together. Go in peace brother.

[RSivulka]

@TsarIvanIV: Sorry, I don't remember the source, but the contemp music on KLOVE & other Christian stations is primarily geared toward women of a certain age. What can I say my friend? You're a-typical!

[RSivulka]

@TsarIvanIV: Just really curious... have you ever street preached?

[TsarIvanIV]

@RSivulka No, that's not my evangelism style. I'm actually a missionary to China, where I do teaching missions. I've done some evangelism though.

[RSivulka]

@TsarIvanIV: No obviously it doesn't have to be that extreme, but I submit the example I already used in the video. Lots of guys don't like the way women are running the show in the church & just 1 example of it is our modern praise music in the churches. If that's the sole expression of love for Jesus, then it seems obvious to me that our churches won't be utilizing a lot masculinity.

[TsarIvanIV]

@RSivulka For the record, I'm a woman, a feminist, and I hate that crappy praise music too. ;) And for some reason, the praise bands all seem to be led by men....lol

[RSivulka]

@TsarIvanIV: LOL! I suggest those guys have fallen in line & have become emasculated! ;>P

[RSivulka]

@TsarIvanIV: You may want to get a hold of Dr. James Dobson's, "Bringing Up Girls," & read ch. 4, "Why She Is Who She is," for starters. The notion that boys & girls are only different in regards to reproductive anatomy & physiology was in vogue in academic circles from the period of 1965 to 1995. Times have changed. This is even reflective of the secular literature I use to teach Philosophy 101 on the community college level.

[MereMessenger]

Such an important sermon. Christians forget the bold rash Jesus. The churches need to grow some balls and preach the truth as Jesus did.

[RSivulka]

My apologies on 45:33 when I mis-spoke and said the "Book of Mormon" when I meant "Book of Abraham." Call it a brain-fart!

[WorthDieing4]

Amen! Beautiful sermon.