Here's on for you: Jesus said that your prayers will be answered. Not might be; WILL be.
So where does that leave god's plan?
Every time you pray, do you screw up his plan? Or does he ignore you? Or is your prayer already foreseen? In which case, why pray at all? If it's already part of the plan you shouldn't need to, and the offer of fulfilling your prayers was a hollow one.
None of this religion, or any other, actually adds up. None of it.
@MissChaceurz No it doesn't. Instead of trolling the comment, you'd do good explaining why it's still a choice, because he already knows the choice. In other words... you choose what he programmed you to choose
But what if the Theist says God shut off his omniscience for a moment and just made a couple of things and let the Universe go its own road,know what I'm saying?
This argument is the result of a profound confusion between knowledge and causation. Let us suppose that there is a temporal fax machine, a hypothesis contrary to fact. That does not mean that I did not freely choose to send the message. Your knowledge is NOT the cause of me sending the message. It does not matter who knows what. What matters is who caused the message. If it is I, I am free. If I never saw the message, it could not cause me to send it. So, what did? Me. Freedom is causation.
@dfpolis The problem there is omniscience would prevent the individual who has it from choosing, as he or she or it already knows what it will do. This would not stop free will from others, unless of course it was the creator of others, in which case since the creator has no free will, neither could it's creations as all factors had already been selected, thus the outcome to everything had already been so as well.
@humanistheart No one is omniscient but God. God is perfect, and so cannot change, because any change would add or subtract a perfection. As God does not change, He cannot know before He chooses, because there is no before and after in God, only an eternal now. Peace, DP
Exactly Freewill is very likely an illusion in which we as carnal beings function autonomously. Supposing an eternal realm exists in which are created spiritual beings designed to perform eternal duties with no autonomy. They may become discontent with their station and question why they can't be fully autonomous in eternity. What better way to show such spirits than to create this temporal illusion of autonomy, in which they self-justify the nature of their capacity for freewill.
The choices are known, they are not "decided" before we make them. God doesn't decide what choices we'll make, we do. So it's free will and nothing else. Choice is choice.
Jesus knew Peter would deny Him 3 times. Peter denied he would. Peter denying Him 3 times doesn't mean he didn't have a choice to do otherwise, Jesus just knew what choice he'd make.
I'm choosing to continue typing this message regardless of who knows whether I'll finish it or not. It's still my choice to finish this message
PART 2: (I did not write this) In fact, I don't even have to be in the room at all. I think I know my son well enough, though, to tell you that if I come back into the kitchen the cookie will be gone. His act was made completely free of my influence, but I knew what his actions would be.
@05gardnerj I don't think you understood the nature of omniscience. You analogy shows that you know the probability of the action you son will take. You son is very likely or 99.99% chance to eat the cookie, and this is a knowledge in probability. However, when we are discussing omniscience, it can not be probable, it has to be CERTAIN, which means it is impossible in any imaginable world that you are wrong. Now I ask, does your knowledge meet the criteria of perfect knowledge?
PART 1: (I did not write this) Just because God can foresee which choice you will make, it does not mean you couldn't still freely choose the other option. I have a five year old son. If I were to leave a chocolate chip cookie on the table about an hour before dinner time and my son was to walk by and see it, I know that he would pick up the cookie and eat it. I did not force him to make that decision.
Yes God knows everything, But we still have free will.
If you want to kill yourself go right ahead, God isn't making you do it, he already knows your going to do it, but its still your choice. As with every other choice.
God says I love you I created you, I already know what your going to do, but you dont, So love me or hate me.
@RespectMyHate But god cannot be wrong, So if he knows you are going to kill yourself that means you have to kill yourself, otherwise that would make him wrong.
@HonestTechnoAtheist Yeah God knew but you didn't, that makes all the difference. So everything you do is according to your will. even though God Knows your every move, lightyears before you do it. Its just part of Gods nature to know the future.
Anyway please watch my video popsicle masterpiece. appreciate it.
@RespectMyHate I am not perfect and can be wrong, where as god is perfect and cannot be wrong. That is what you need to realize. So if god cannot be wrong, that means if he knows something will happen, then it will happen, otherwise he was wrong.
And btw a lightyear is a measurement of distance, not time. A lightyear is something like 5.8 trillion miles.
@HonestTechnoAtheist Yes it will happen, everything God knows will happen, will happen. That doesn't mean God is making it happen, it simply means God knows its going to happen.
God Knows everything that will happen, therefore he is always right.
I used the word lightyear as a figure of speech, and you knew what I was talking about.
Haven't you ever heard somebody say something like,"that person is so smart, they're lightyears ahead of me" Its could mean time or a distance.
@RespectMyHate God cannot be wrong, so if he knows something will happen then that means it wil happen. If god knows something will happen that means it will happen.
the usa phildephia experiment showed that time travel and time lines can be viewed. so with science if you can see it it is written. the only religion that recognises this is islam. so if you can go into the future and see it via time lines it is written we are such small clogs in universe what we do one way affects the other. this alters western governments ie defence laws, renders religion useless to a degree.
In a universe where each possible result of actions (infinite) is an alternate reality that exists (but each individual reality can't see the other ones), God can't exist.
Anyway, if the universe works the way we think it does, moving forward in time (which is impossible, scientists may try, but the laws of the universe make this impossible) and sending a fax to a friend, him/her receiving it, him/her telling you "you will send me this from the future", and you refusing that, would make you cho
... choose another path resulting in another alternate reality where you never faxed the letter to your friend. So you will not remember him/her saying "you will send me this in the future" because it never happened in that reality. There. This is all impossible anyway, because moving in time is impossible. It's probably already known among many scientists, but I am writing a "book" anyway.
Matter and energy wouldn't be able to move through time either, because each point in
... the volume of space (w,x,y,z right now, there are infinite of these points) is simply a different combination of each atom of matter and energy (unique locations). If there are only 3 atoms in the universe and there are only 3 points of each axis (there are infinite, a centimeter can be split infinite times. 3x3x3x3x3 = 243 realities), each combination of locations would be an alternate universe. Matter can't move through time, because that would just result in an alternat
... e reality which already exists. You can't move all matter and energy into one point of time. That would just be removing all matter from all points (impossible to add/remove matter or energy from existence) to create a reality that already exists (there can't be 2 identical realities, they will be the same reality).
@jesucristoelmesias God may have know what the choice will be,howerver could you at 7;30 am go to the mountain instead? No you could not b/c God knew your going to the beach, You only have a illusion of freewill your are going to do what God knows your going to do,from God perspective you have no freewill it is a illusion.
Does your theory still work if God is eternal and outside time, rather than the everlasting God in time view you seem to take? In other words, there is no such thing as future to God, your actions are eternally present to him. From our perspective it hasn't happened yet and from God's perspective it is happening in the present, so from neither perspective is it fossilised into a timeline that God somehow sees stretching into the distance.
Nothing that exists inside a universe (if it existed outside a universe/existence, that would too be the universe/existence) can exist outside a universe. If it did, that would too be existence/universe. Nothing can exist "before" (= outside) time which is a dimension (w,x,y,'Z'). If it did, that would too be time. Saying something is eternal means that they are exactly as big as time itself. Time has a size like the width of the universe. Nothing is eternal except for existence.
@MagnusRulerHardt Our understanding of what "universe" is, leaves a lot to be desired. I think Einstein said basically that without space (what most people would call 3 dimensional), time (linear) cannot exist. The universe consists of more than 3 (or 4) dimensions. Our scientifically provable (observable) reality does not. Also, to say that exsistence is eternal is a paradox, if nothing can exist outside of time as you say. Eternity is TIMELESSNESS. No beginning, no end, no linear time.
your video is stupid. Your suggesting that if you show me the paper "i wrote" that i will somehow not be able to do something different. My arms will float up against my will and type exactly what It typed before.
This has nothing to do with a christian omniscient God and free will. God never told anyone EXACTLY what they would do in any case. The closest was Jesus foretelling Peter that he would betray Jesus, but he didnt say how. Try again.
You speak of man's free will as if it is something that everyone can have. That would mean that God had to look into the future and calculate all the choices we would make, and then figure out how to fulfill his ultimate plan for the world. The problem is that not only did God claim to know about future events, but he also laid out his plans of his own. God's plans are not submitted to man's choices but the other way around; man's choices are submitted to God's plan.
The better explanation is that looking into the future is nonsense. God cannot see what has not yet happened; God is not a time traveler. But if God can't see into the future then how does he know it? The answer is that God is controlling every event real-time as it happens. Our choices are really his choices, and our illusion. He knows the future because he knows what he is going to do. This preserves God's plans but destroys man's free will. Free will is an illusion that only applies to God.
Your argument seems to give man true free will to make a choice once, but then lock him into that choice so he can't change his mind later. Then you argue that because he can't change it, he therefore doesn't have free will. It doesn't add up.
My explanation takes into account the fact that God also has plans of his own that he revealed in the Bible. Those plans must happen as God said. Therefore, free will has to be completely not allowed from the start, and thus an illusion only.
I see what you're saying but I don't agree, or perhaps see it differently. God can know one's choices and the eventual outcomes of those choices, but your analogies assume he somehow controls them, which is not the case. To refer to your fax machine, you might know what I'd write, but it was still MY CHOICE to write it. That you happened to know WHAT I would write is neither here or there as far as my free will is concerned because you did not MAKE me write it.
I always hated this allegory. If some alien on a planet a billion miles away knew the fate of some random person on earth, how would their freedom to choose between chocolate ice cream and strawberry ice cream any different then everyone else on earth? It wouldn't matter! For all intents and purposes it wouldn't make a difference at all.
If the alien showed the human a script laying out every decision the person would make during their lifetime, the human would recognize that they are not actually making decisions. He would see that he is powerless, just going through the motions, living out a script he didn't write.
If the alien keeps that information to himself, the human fate will not any less predetermined, he is still following a prewritten script which he is just as powerless to change.
@azsuperman01 (this is necrorat) Perhaps I'm missunderstanding what you're trying to say. Are you agreeing with me? In the latter example you give, it demonstrates how a person can make decisions and still have a fate....
No, it doesn't. It shows that if someone's fate is already written, that person is powerless to change it. They aren't actually making any decisions for themselves. The only difference is whether or not the person has the illusion of freewill.
@azsuperman01 But if somehow everything has already happened from god's perspective and he's looking at an already recorded video of our choices that wouldn't imply we have free will would it now? I'm not sure how if God exists he could relate to temporality and time, but I'm giving a hypothetical.
Suppose a man designed and built a slot machine that would randomly pay off 100 to 1
Of course he knew in advance the chances of a payoff on the first pull (as he had designed) would be VERY unlikely. yet failing to pay off the first time gets him so angry, he smashes it to pieces.
Then he spends hours building another one just like the first.
Again he gets madder, destroys this one, then makes another, & another & another...
who knows everything that ever has & ever will happen, .. and he knew it long before anyone existed.. knowing most of us would question him, resulting in our burning torment in hell for forever.
Then after he watches this over & over for a thousand lifetimes, he becomes even more angry at the freewill he gave us to exercise.. so he furiously continues to create and destroy millions- yet- still.. he never realizes his own pointless stupidity!
Thanks, but to be honest with myself, the analogy somewhat misses its mark.
While the slot machine maker knows that his machine WILL payoff eventually, he just does not know when.
God, however knows in advance EXACTLY who will question him..and when... which makes his absurd activities way less rational than that of the machine maker.
@azsuperman01 Wow, finally someone with the Biblical and Scriptural answer. Yes, we are following the predetermined plan of God [as the Scriptures say] but we are more than robots. YES, there are similarities between robots and humans however robots cannot LOVE, we are so much greater than a mere robot. The robot argument is not going away, however it does not do any harm to all of what you have just said to be true.
@lostallmymirth Theists are subconsciously atheists because the only way to resolve this discrepancy is really by invoking parallel universes. In other words, our universe and the natural multiverse is a type of pantheistic "god". There never was a personal god.
@lostallmymirth Well you should know that neither Christ nor all other Biblical authors NEVER taught that immortal people, unbelievers, or anyone for that matter would burn it hell. Hell meant something completely different back in the 1600s. "all will eventually be drawn to Christ (John 12:32). The teaching of endless torment is NO WHERE found in the scriptures.
I am fully prepared to have you tell me that I am misreading, misinterpreting, or taking out of context just a few from KJV eg. Matt. 5:22 ..."Thou fool, shall be in danger of HELL FIRE" or Matt.25:41 ""depart from me into...everlasting fire", or Luke 16:23 "in HELL he be in torment"....but please be somewhat creative and original when doing so.
@lostallmymirth Do you debate Universalists? Hell is translated from two greek words and those words have completely different meanings. Hades has NOTHING in common with Gehenna. That's why you NEVER see FIRE associated with Hades. Hades LITERALLY means imperceptible. Sheol and hades are the same thing: unconscious death in the grave. "For in death there is NO REMEMBRANCE of Thee: in the grave [Heb: sheol] who shall give You thanks?" (Psalm 6:5). No one gives thanks because they are dead.
@lostallmymirth You can believe that people are alive in sheol/hades but if you do, your interpretation CONTRADICTS Psalm 6:5 and MANY other verses. "Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [Heb: sheol], where you go"(Ecclesiastes 9:10). How can someone be alive in sheol with no knowledge, remembrance, reason, etc. Come on use your brain brother. Christ words are spiritual (John 6:63). Not literal fire.
@lostallmymirth The rich man represents the Jews who are in torment and are spiritually dead and Lazarus represents the Gentiles who have not the word as they do. That's why Lazarus ate the crumbs from the rich man's table and the DOGS licked his sores. The bread crumbs represents the word of God and the dogs and lazarus represent the gentiles. There is a gulf fix spiritually between the jews and gentiles. The purple, fine linen that the rich man wore is WHAT THE JEWISH PRIESTS WORE.
@lostallmymirth Continuing with the dogs and crumbs symbolism. Matt 16:24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread [The word of God that the Jews have], and to cast it to dogs [Gentiles]. 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. The Girl is a GENTILE.
@lostallmymirth "And He [Jesus] spoke this parable [consisting of five different examples] unto them." The "them" being the 'publicans and sinners' of verse 1, and the 'Pharisees,' 16:14. Jesus always and only spoke to the multitudes in public, in PARABLES, Matt. 13:34. "And He spoke this parable unto them...Continuing is next post.
@lostallmymirth You need to start with my first comment if you haven't already. [1] "what man of you..." (Luke 15:4-7)--this is the first part of "this parable."
[2] "Either what woman..." (Luke 15:8-10)--this is the second part.
[3] "And He said, a certain man..." (Luke 15:11-32)--this is the third part.
[4] "There was a certain rich man..." (Lk. 16:1-13)--and this is the fourth part.
[5] "There was a certain rich man..." (Luke 16:19-31)--and this the final part.
@lostallmymirth So we have: "what man, what woman, a certain man, a certain rich man, a certain rich man." It is so unmistakably clear that this five-part parable is all related to one another by the very first words of each presentation that it defies human comprehension to believe that even one theologian could or would argue that the first four examples are parables, but the fifth example is not. That is carnal spiritual stubbornness on a par to be envied by Satan himself.
@lostallmymirth When he says "depart from me into eonian fire," they are departing to Earth. The Fire is the word and law of God ((Deut 33:2, Jer 23:29) which they will be taught after the first resurrection. "For when thy Judgments are in the Earth, the WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa 26:9). Don't you get that Christ words are Spiritual which means SYMBOLISM. In John 15 he speaks of the farmer, the vine, branches, and fire. Not literal. Farmer is the father, the vine is Christ etc.
@lostallmymirth 1 John 4:14 says God sent Christ to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD. That IS the ultimate plan of God. Rom 8:21 says that the WHOLE CREATION will one day become the Sons of God, of course after they bow their knee, confess Christ, and learn righteousness. He is the savior of even those who don't believe (I Tim 4:10), however that doesn't mean they will enter heaven AS THEY ARE, no their flesh must be consumed by the fire of God. Fire associated with Judgment is spiritual (I Cor 3:15).
I'm a believer, and even i know this. I'm not gunna get into how God can exist while we have free will, it'll take too long and isn't catholic view. But yes, if you look at time as ONE straight line, then this video is correct. However if you take into consideration parallel universes, well it gets a little more deep.
@corythesuit B/c if you decide not to send it then you would not have seen it in the first place, If God knows the future it is already created from his perspective you have no choice therefore no freewill. Thank;s
This video is fucking bullshit, and I am not even going to explain why. Plus all you christian asswipes are retardet, so please stop commenting. You are like fucking trolls and without your annoying religious bitching, atheism wouldn't exist.
greek dude went completely over ur head dumbass he knows its gonna happen if ur gonna murder someone and want to change ur mind to not murder that person u cant so if u r going to hell u cant make it better so god basicley if hes real bullshit made the rapist and murderers do what they did so god is a rapist and a murderers and acountss for all the sins of the world so he is fuckin phycho
you fucking religious people are fucked, i don't even think you people know what the fuck ur even talking about, god does not have a plan anybody morons, do you people not understand that science proves against all that bullshit even existing, like get off your ass and read a fuckng book, and not the bible, i'm looking for facts not bullshit.........
You know what's ironic azsuperman, God himself would logically be bound by that same mechanical slavery to his own foresight like we are, as he can't make himself wrong. Yet he can do anything we are told, meaning that he should be able to defy the impossible and still be able to make choices....meaning that hes fallible and his foresight is wrong. It's a paradox.
A quite good video about a near-timeless theological paradox.
When you're discussing God(or any other object, for that matter), you have to consider His attributes as they fit together as a whole. If you cherry-pick certain attributes and put them together without such consideration, you can end up with problems that wouldn't follow in a holistic examination. It's similar to how two puzzle pieces will fit seamlessly into their particular puzzle, but they may not fit together with each other.
A logical fallacy. One cannot directly equate foreknowledge of a choice with forcing an individual to make a choice.
God knows a man will kill himself . God does not cause the man to purchase the gun or pull the trigger, yet God knows his course. Does God force the man to pull the trigger? Of course not. Were the man to change his mind, God would have known of that choice also.
The entire issue of "no free will" is yet another tired way of humans self-pity and blame God for their woes.
What if God told the man the day he was going to kill himself, where and when he was going to purchase the gun and where and when he was going to pull the trigger?
The man has the ability to change all of the details of the prophecy that was revealed to him by god...
law of excluded middle-a statement is either true or false...
if true...
then god didn't know because what he told the man was wrong...
because according to the bible god cannot tell a lie...
so you choose....
a. cannot tell a lie
b. is omniscient
c. we have freewill
remove the one you like the least... The post was a lot longer but youtube didn't put up my second continuation and i didn't feel like re-typing that sh*t. lol
Whether or not God can tell a lie is irrelevant. We are talking about whether omniscience (by any being) precludes free will. You have yet to demonstrate how knowledge of a future action means that action is not free.
What about this argument:
I have a perfect camera. It will take a perfect picture of an event as it happens, and it can not be wrong. It took a picture of you robbing a bank. Therefore, you had to rob the bank, because if you did something else, the camera would be wrong.
2. Assume the camera took a picture of you doing X.
3. Therefore, from 1 and 2, it was impossible for you to do anything except X, because if you did not-X, then the camera would be wrong. And since the camera is perfect, you must not have free will.
Yes, Im trying to keep it simple so that you can understand my explanation.
So, again, if I have a picture of you doing X, does that mean that you did not have free will at the moment you did X? Or are you saying that your free-will action X caused the picture?
Its called an analogy because it is a similar situation, not the exact same situation.
So, if I have a picture of you doing X, does that mean you did not have free will at the moment you did X? If you answer the question, I can explain the analogy.
Okay, since you havent responded yet, Ill jump to the conclusion:
If there is a perfect camera always pointed at me, recording everything I do, then it is impossible for me to do anything other than what it records, because it is perfect. However, I still have free will, because my actions determine what is recorded on the camera. So if you have a picture of me doing X, that does not mean I didnt have the free will to do X.
And please, tell me why my analogy doesnt apply. Both have a person performing an action, and an infallible observer. You have yet to show how the observer causes the person to not have free will. Omniscience just happens to be a perfect camera that can see into the future, but the results are the same.
Actually you're the one with the logical fallacy. "God would have known of that choice also."? LOL logic fail. Listen to what you're saying buddy. God KNOWS the outcome, as it is exampled by the bible. For God, he knows the outcome of every choices made by every human beings. The outcome is "set in stone", for God. So if the man did not pull the trigger and changed his mind, it violates God's knowledge of outcome that this man would die. Two choices equal two different outcomes.
You cant just say set in stone as if it proves something. By that logic, the past is set in stone, correct? If you had cereal for breakfast yesterday morning, that is a fact. It is unchangeable. You can not go back and alter that decision.
So, does that mean that you had no free will when you chose cereal for breakfast?
Yes if there was an omniscient/omnipotent being like your "God". You're obviously not refuting any of my argument because face it, you can't. Just read your bible, God foresees future outcomes and events therefore it is "set in stones" as it proves my point that if an omniscient being like your "God" knows an outcome, it is set in stone therefor our decisions, no matter how free we may seem to be, will be that of a decision that will lead to the foreseen outcome by your God.
Im not saying that the past is set in stone IF God exists. I am saying, even if an omniscient being does not exist, then the past is set in stone, right? You did X yesterday, and you cant change that. So, does that mean that when you did X, you had no free will?
Again, you fail to realize that having no free will when i made that decision is only true when there is an omniscient being. And your argument of past being set in stone as opposed to future being set in stone is completely irrelevant and it does not make sense.
The past is set in stone yes, even if there is no omniscient being. However when i make a decision that's the present, and that "past" is essentially the outcome from when i make that decision. So, if there is no omniscient god, there is no outcome set in stone, therefore when i make a decision at that time, i have free will.
So the past is set in stone, but at the moment you made that decision, it was still a free-will decision. Similarly, even though a future action is known (i.e. set in stone), that does not preclude it from also being a free-will decision. An omniscient being knows what you WILL do, but that does not mean that it is something you MUST do. Similarly, something you DID do in the past does not mean it is something you MUST have done.
"An omniscient being knows what you WILL do, but that does not mean that it is something yo MUST do." ROFLMAO are you serious? I already explained that it is what you MUST do or else it violates omniscience. Obviously your blind faith and devotion is preventing you from truly comprehending this. If an outcome is known to be absolute truth and must, the choice we make ultimately leads to that outcome if there is an omniscient being. If there is an omniscient being, what i did in the past means
No, its not what you must do. Your assumption is based on an error in logic. Will do is not the same as must do.
So again, if an omniscient being does NOT EXIST, but you did X yesterday, does that mean that you MUST HAVE DONE X (i.e. that you had no free will when you did it)? After all, the past is set in stone, right? And set in stone equals no free will, right?
Yes it is what you must do and will do if there is an omniscient being. Why are you repeating yourself when I answered it like two times already? Obviously you're ignoring my answers because you cannot refute them. I'm gonna stop this pointless debate since you cannot comprehend. What's funny is you haven't elaborated with any logic or sense, all you do is ask irrelevant questions and piece together out-of-context analogy as if it has any weight to it.
"Yes it is what you must do and will do if there is an omniscient being."
You keep making this fallacy. "Must do" is not equivalent to "will do." If God knows that you will do X, then yes, it is impossible to do something other than X. But that is only because it is logically impossible that you will do both X and (not X) at the same time. It would be true even if God didnt exist:
1. In the future, you will do X.
2. Therefore, you must do X, so there is no free will.
Again, if an omniscient being does not exist, the future is not set in stone, therefore it is I who decide what PAST will be set in stone. Again your using my "FUTURE set in stone = no free will" and applying it to "PAST set in stone = no free will" which is incomparable as future with omniscient being is not the same without an omniscient being. The past which is set in stone without omniscient being is "set in stone" by humans. Past with omniscient being set in stone is done by God,
If an omniscient being exists, the future is still set in stone by humans; it is just known in advance by God. With omniscience, a cause can precede the effect, but that doesnt mean that the effect is the cause.
therefore no free will. This is getting pointless, I'm done debating with a Christian whose brain capacity is blocked by blind devotion. You cannot comprehend what i'm trying to say. It is logically irrefutable. You keep playing with words like "will do" and "must do" as if it has any sort of valid argument behind it. If there's an omniscient being, you MUST do what God foresees therefore you WILL do it, or else it violates God's omniscience. I'm done with your illogical comparison and stupidity
"If there's an omniscient being, you MUST do what God foresees therefore you WILL do it, or else it violates God's omniscience."
And you have failed to prove this. By that same logic, if you WILL DO X in the future, then you MUST DO X or you will violate logic, therefore no one has free will.
Failed to prove this? What is there to prove? How can you NOT logically understand that "If there's an omniscient being, you MUST do what God foresees therefore you WILL do it, or else it violates God's omniscience."?
Yes, that's my argument. And your counter argument was that:
1. According to me there's no God
2. Yet what you will do is what you must do because of my argument of the situation where there is an omniscient God.
3. Therefore even if there's no omniscient being, people have no free will according to my logic.
And AGAIN, you cannot use the same logic when the VARIABLE is different. The variable is whether there is a God or not. If there is a God, your understanding of my argument is correct. But
"And AGAIN, you cannot use the same logic when the VARIABLE is different."
Logic is logic. I am simply showing how, using your argument, humans must not have free will, regardless of the existence of an omniscient being. Therefore, either your logic is incorrect, or it does not prove anything about omniscience. Either way, it is wrong.
Again, you say "in the future, you will do x" when the variable is changed. "in the future you will do x" can only be used by a situation where there IS an omniscient god that knows what you will do with 100% probability. If there is no god, nobody knows what you will do, therefore the choice is yours. Your argument is invalid my friend. You're trying to use logic where it cannot apply.
"'in the future you will do x' can only be used by a situation where there IS an omniscient god that knows what you will do with 100% probability."
You are completely wrong. Logically, you can say, "In the future, you will do X." That is a logically valid statement, and completely true where X is the set of all actions it is possible for you to do. Really, if you don't understand this, take a logic class. Omniscience is not required to make statements about the future.
Well then that's not really my argument is it? It looks like I did not make my self clear. "In the future, you will do X BECAUSE the outcome is already set in stone by the foreknowledge of God"
Essentially, what i'm saying is with an omniscient God you do not affect the outcome. Without an omniscient God, you affect the outcome. Do you disagree that with an omniscient God you do not affect the outcome? Please explain to me how you can affect the outcome when the outcome is already known by God.
"Do you disagree that with an omniscient God you do not affect the outcome? Please explain to me how you can affect the outcome when the outcome is already known by God."
Because God knows everything that will happen. So if I do X, then God knows (and has always known) that I will do X. And if I do Y, then God knows (and has always known) that I will do Y. God knowledge is affected by my actions, not the other way around. That is the definition of omniscience: God knows what is true.
God's knowledge is NOT affected by your action because he KNOWS your action before you can make them. X and Y determines 2 different outcomes. God only knows 1 outcome, so how can this be true? Your action/choices determine the outcome, but the outcome is already known so how can u affect it? You say "If i do x, god knows i will do x" and if i do "y..." you CANNOT do Y because y would produce different outcome and it would violate god's omniscience. X and Y = outcome of X1 and Y1.
"God's knowledge is NOT affected by your action because he KNOWS your action before you can make them."
Omniscience is knowing everything that is true, and "I will do X" is only true if I actually do X. So yes, my actions DO affect his knowledge! That is what omniscience IS!
"but the outcome is already known so how can u affect it?"
Because omniscience means that effects can precede causes.
If your action in the present affects his knowledge then he is not omnipotent. Holy shit your understanding of time is so screwed up it's pointless and pathetic to even keep talking to you. "Omniscience is knowing everything that is true.. blah blah blah" that doesn't prove anything that i said to the post you're replying to. Also, you still didn't explain how can YOU affect the outcome in the present if the future is already known?
"If your action in the present affects his knowledge then he is not omnipotent."
Omnipotence has nothing to do with it. We are talking about omniscience, not omnipotence. And if someone knows the future, and you DO something in the future, that affects his knowledge in the past, by definition.
"Also, you still didn't explain how can YOU affect the outcome in the present if the future is already known?"
But the bible is just full of 1 outcome. Do u see in the bible that "IF This, GOd knows that"? No, it's always "God knows this", there IS no IF in presence of omniscience. IF indicates improbability and uncertainty, that destroys the whole Christians' claim that God is omniscient.
Also, if you say God knows all the outcome because of your free will. Any HUMANS can make that sort of statement. If you do that, this will happen, NO SHIT. What separates omniscient being from humans is that an omniscient being says "I know you will do it", not "if you will do it, i know you will do it"
"an omniscient being says 'I know you will do it', not 'if you will do it, i know you will do it'"
That's because the second statement is redundant. We say, "I saw that you went to the store," not "If you went to the store, I saw that you went to the store." The statement "I saw that you went to the store" explicitly includes "You went to the store." And the statement, "If you will do X, I know you will do X" explicitly includes "You will do X."
No, it's not. AGAIN you treat the past and future the same. Your analogy of "If you went to the store, I saw that you went to the store" is not equal to "if you will go to the store, I will see that you will go to the store". And even if it turns out to be "You will do X", that's not much different from tyranny and command. rofl.
I'm not saying that past and future are the same. I'm saying that if you say, "I know you went to the store," that explicitly includes the statement, "You went to the store." And if an omniscient being says, "I know you will do X," then that explicitly means that "You will do X" is true...not because the being CAUSES it, but because he KNOWS it.
God's knowledge cannot be affected by your action as he knows what you will do BEFORE you do them. Omg this is so pointless. Your answer to "How you can affect the outcome when the outcome is already known" is "Because God knows everything that will happen." You're not providing any sort of logically convincing answers, you should take a class that explains to you what time really is. And being omniscient by definition isn't knowing what is only true, it is essentially knowing everything.
Im sorry to see that you have given up responding. I was actually curious as to how you would answer my arguments about knowledge of an event being caused by that event.
God gives an illusion of choice. It is like a man on a path and theres a fork in the road. On one path is a barrier, beyond it is beautiful land. The other path is a terrible path with a lake of burning sulphur at the end. One of those paths will have an impenetrable barrier of impossibility blocking you from going down it. So if you are marked for damnation by God, you can try and try to believe/repent, but you will never succeed. You cannot possibly.
if there is no God, you cannot say what you WILL do is what you MUST do because there is no omniscient being to know what you WILL do therefore what you do isn't a MUST do. If you apply my logic to two VERY different type of situation of course it would fail. But like i said, the variable has changed, so in case of no God, nobody knows with 100% probability (like God) what you will do therefore what you will do is your free will.
"if there is no God, you cannot say what you WILL do is what you MUST do"
Sure I can.
1. In the future, you will do X.
2. Therefore, you must do X, because if you didnt, it would violate 1.
How can you disprove this? If you will do X, how is it possible for you to not do X? Please demonstrate how you can do something other than X without violating part 1 of the proof.
No you can't, because if there is no God, your "1. In the future, you will do X" immediately becomes obliterated. If there is no God, NOBODY knows what you will do in the future except yourself, so what you will do is YOUR choice and free will.
So essentially, the correct sentence would be "1. in the future, you will do X BECAUSE God knows you will do X. Therefore you must do X because if it didn't it violates #1 of God's OMNISCIENCE. Again you're applying a logic where it applies GOD into a situation of no-God. The logic with God immediately becomes obsolete. "In the future you will do x because someone already knows u will do x". if there is no god, there's nobody that will kno wat u will do therefore determining the outcome is u.
"So essentially, the correct sentence would be '1. in the future, you will do X BECAUSE God knows you will do X.'"
No, the correct statement would be, "1. God knows you will do X because you will do X." Omniscience is knowledge of things that are true. You have to assume "You will do X" before you can assume "God knows you will do X."
LOL like all Christians, you contradicted yourself again. You say "the correct statement would be, "1. God knows you will do X because you will do X."" Meaning "God knows you will do X" is BEFORE "You will do X" as you stated just now. Then you go on to say ". You have to assume "You will do X" before you can assume "God knows you will do X."? FAIL. You couldn't be more wrong. lol
And even if it does make sense, you have to assume "God knows you will do X" first because he's the one with the knowledge of future before you even "Do X". There is no much difference between "God knos u will do x because u will do x" and "U will do x, because god knows u will do x"
So HwarangOfFaith, have you just given up completely? I was curious to see how you would respond to my latest points, but you have been strangely quiet. Have you given up already?
Lol given up? How petty of you. Grow up kid. All your points are the same redundant crap that is illogical according to the definition of time. You didn't answer any of my questions with any substance. Anyone who understands omniscience can pull your answers out of their asses like that, not to mention those answers were completely illogical in perspective of time.
YOUR action in present affecting God's knowledge? Seriously you have no understanding of time. Okay, here. God knows everything in this universe before you were even born. YOUR action affecting God's knowledge is like saying your actions are affecting the past. Do you still not get that your actions are always made in present and its relation with past and future? I am not going to reply to any of your baseless answer unless you can provide answers using correct understanding of time. Till then.
"YOUR action in present affecting God's knowledge? Seriously you have no understanding of time. Okay, here. God knows everything in this universe before you were even born. YOUR action affecting God's knowledge is like saying your actions are affecting the past."
Yes, exactly! That is what omniscience IS: present and future actions affecting knowledge in the past! You can't have knowledge of the future without the future affecting the past! Do you really not get that??
God knowing your fate means that if he made you to repent, you will repent, no matter what. If he made you to be damned, you will be damned no matter what.
Yes, you have the "illusion" of free will", but your fate is not your own. It is predetermined. That is the point being made in this video. You cannot have free will if it is impossible to choose a choice thatd make god wrong. Understand?
2. You will do and MUST (u can take out the must if u want) X because if you didn't, it violates #1.
3. You will do what God foresees. God knows the outcome so he sets the outcome in stone, therefore you don't really have free will because you cannot affect the outcome.
Your argument is not well formed. First of all, "You will do and must do X because if you didn't, it violates 1" is incorrect, because you did not include a statement, "God knows you will do X." In fact, the entire argument is not logically sound.
well formed or not, you understand what i'm trying to say. "You will do and must do X because if you didn't, it violates 1, 1 meaning God's omniscience."
something what i MUST have done. You really don't allow yourself to comprehend this do you? Your logic fails so hard it's not even worth to keep this argument going. It's been proven by people far intellectually superior to you that free will and omniscience cannot co-exist unless some compromise is made for your "God".
In short, youre saying that with an omniscient being, the future is set in stone, therefore you have no free will. However, in the absence of an omniscient being, the past is also set in stone, but those actions were still free will actions. Therefore, set in stone does not imply no free will, so your argument about omniscience is thrown out the window.
Again, you're comparing past and future in perspective of present as if they were the same thing buddy. You obviously did not, or cannot comprehend what i'm trying to say. In short, i'm saying with omniscient being, the future is set in stone, therefore you have no free will. WITHOUT omniscient being, future is NOT set in stone therefore you HAVE free will. You're saying past=future in two different context, your argument couldn't logically and intellectually fail so hard.
Here's on for you: Jesus said that your prayers will be answered. Not might be; WILL be.
So where does that leave god's plan?
Every time you pray, do you screw up his plan? Or does he ignore you? Or is your prayer already foreseen? In which case, why pray at all? If it's already part of the plan you shouldn't need to, and the offer of fulfilling your prayers was a hollow one.
None of this religion, or any other, actually adds up. None of it.
DaToNyOyO 1 month ago
Google L. Ray Smith Bible-Truths, click on his website and scroll down to number 15 for his four articles on Free Will.
JAKEHARRIS281 5 months ago
I'm tired of this flawed argument. If you want to see a refutation feel free to see the video I uploaded on it.
mrstevenjake22 6 months ago
This is the dumbest thing I've heard u say n I've herd u say sum dum things!!!
MissChaceurz 9 months ago
I cannot get ova how dum that is!! Jut because he new why u would chose before you chose it still makes it ur choice!!
MissChaceurz 9 months ago
@MissChaceurz No it doesn't. Instead of trolling the comment, you'd do good explaining why it's still a choice, because he already knows the choice. In other words... you choose what he programmed you to choose
Alice89chan 6 months ago
But what if the Theist says God shut off his omniscience for a moment and just made a couple of things and let the Universe go its own road,know what I'm saying?
MingBaiLiaoJie 9 months ago
This argument is the result of a profound confusion between knowledge and causation. Let us suppose that there is a temporal fax machine, a hypothesis contrary to fact. That does not mean that I did not freely choose to send the message. Your knowledge is NOT the cause of me sending the message. It does not matter who knows what. What matters is who caused the message. If it is I, I am free. If I never saw the message, it could not cause me to send it. So, what did? Me. Freedom is causation.
dfpolis 10 months ago
@dfpolis The problem there is omniscience would prevent the individual who has it from choosing, as he or she or it already knows what it will do. This would not stop free will from others, unless of course it was the creator of others, in which case since the creator has no free will, neither could it's creations as all factors had already been selected, thus the outcome to everything had already been so as well.
humanistheart 9 months ago
@humanistheart No one is omniscient but God. God is perfect, and so cannot change, because any change would add or subtract a perfection. As God does not change, He cannot know before He chooses, because there is no before and after in God, only an eternal now. Peace, DP
dfpolis 9 months ago
@dfpolis No being can be omniscient period, not without loosing ones free will.
And calling your god perfect is horrid, as it means genocide and infanticide are not morally wrong.
humanistheart 9 months ago
Exactly Freewill is very likely an illusion in which we as carnal beings function autonomously. Supposing an eternal realm exists in which are created spiritual beings designed to perform eternal duties with no autonomy. They may become discontent with their station and question why they can't be fully autonomous in eternity. What better way to show such spirits than to create this temporal illusion of autonomy, in which they self-justify the nature of their capacity for freewill.
ReligionlessFAITH 10 months ago
The choices are known, they are not "decided" before we make them. God doesn't decide what choices we'll make, we do. So it's free will and nothing else. Choice is choice.
Jesus knew Peter would deny Him 3 times. Peter denied he would. Peter denying Him 3 times doesn't mean he didn't have a choice to do otherwise, Jesus just knew what choice he'd make.
I'm choosing to continue typing this message regardless of who knows whether I'll finish it or not. It's still my choice to finish this message
IanLDN 11 months ago
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IanLDN 11 months ago
PART 2: (I did not write this) In fact, I don't even have to be in the room at all. I think I know my son well enough, though, to tell you that if I come back into the kitchen the cookie will be gone. His act was made completely free of my influence, but I knew what his actions would be.
05gardnerj 11 months ago
@05gardnerj I don't think you understood the nature of omniscience. You analogy shows that you know the probability of the action you son will take. You son is very likely or 99.99% chance to eat the cookie, and this is a knowledge in probability. However, when we are discussing omniscience, it can not be probable, it has to be CERTAIN, which means it is impossible in any imaginable world that you are wrong. Now I ask, does your knowledge meet the criteria of perfect knowledge?
amsd1231 10 months ago
PART 1: (I did not write this) Just because God can foresee which choice you will make, it does not mean you couldn't still freely choose the other option. I have a five year old son. If I were to leave a chocolate chip cookie on the table about an hour before dinner time and my son was to walk by and see it, I know that he would pick up the cookie and eat it. I did not force him to make that decision.
05gardnerj 11 months ago
I think that god has forgotten a little thing called the Quantum Theory.
callkaro911 1 year ago
Yes God knows everything, But we still have free will.
If you want to kill yourself go right ahead, God isn't making you do it, he already knows your going to do it, but its still your choice. As with every other choice.
God says I love you I created you, I already know what your going to do, but you dont, So love me or hate me.
GOD IS AWESOME
RespectMyHate 1 year ago
@RespectMyHate But god cannot be wrong, So if he knows you are going to kill yourself that means you have to kill yourself, otherwise that would make him wrong.
HonestTechnoAtheist 1 year ago
@HonestTechnoAtheist yes but you made to choice to do so, and YOU did it.
How is that Gods fault? he gave you free will and you exercised that will.
seems fair to me.
RespectMyHate 1 year ago
@RespectMyHate The reason everyone has free will is because no god exists who knows everything and cannot be wrong.
Doesn't matter if I chose to do it, god already knew I was going to do it.
HonestTechnoAtheist 1 year ago
@HonestTechnoAtheist Yeah God knew but you didn't, that makes all the difference. So everything you do is according to your will. even though God Knows your every move, lightyears before you do it. Its just part of Gods nature to know the future.
Anyway please watch my video popsicle masterpiece. appreciate it.
RespectMyHate 1 year ago
@RespectMyHate I am not perfect and can be wrong, where as god is perfect and cannot be wrong. That is what you need to realize. So if god cannot be wrong, that means if he knows something will happen, then it will happen, otherwise he was wrong.
And btw a lightyear is a measurement of distance, not time. A lightyear is something like 5.8 trillion miles.
HonestTechnoAtheist 1 year ago
@HonestTechnoAtheist Yes it will happen, everything God knows will happen, will happen. That doesn't mean God is making it happen, it simply means God knows its going to happen.
God Knows everything that will happen, therefore he is always right.
I used the word lightyear as a figure of speech, and you knew what I was talking about.
Haven't you ever heard somebody say something like,"that person is so smart, they're lightyears ahead of me" Its could mean time or a distance.
RespectMyHate 1 year ago
@RespectMyHate God cannot be wrong, so if he knows something will happen then that means it wil happen. If god knows something will happen that means it will happen.
HonestTechnoAtheist 1 year ago
@HonestTechnoAtheist Yes if God knows something is going to happen then I will happen.
RespectMyHate 1 year ago
@RespectMyHate Please don't kill yourself. there will be no one left on this channel to comment. Nothing is Gods fault... Yes God is awesome.
merlinspower 11 months ago
the usa phildephia experiment showed that time travel and time lines can be viewed. so with science if you can see it it is written. the only religion that recognises this is islam. so if you can go into the future and see it via time lines it is written we are such small clogs in universe what we do one way affects the other. this alters western governments ie defence laws, renders religion useless to a degree.
sexybritgent 1 year ago
In a universe where each possible result of actions (infinite) is an alternate reality that exists (but each individual reality can't see the other ones), God can't exist.
Anyway, if the universe works the way we think it does, moving forward in time (which is impossible, scientists may try, but the laws of the universe make this impossible) and sending a fax to a friend, him/her receiving it, him/her telling you "you will send me this from the future", and you refusing that, would make you cho
MagnusRulerHardt 1 year ago
@MagnusRulerHardt
... choose another path resulting in another alternate reality where you never faxed the letter to your friend. So you will not remember him/her saying "you will send me this in the future" because it never happened in that reality. There. This is all impossible anyway, because moving in time is impossible. It's probably already known among many scientists, but I am writing a "book" anyway.
Matter and energy wouldn't be able to move through time either, because each point in
MagnusRulerHardt 1 year ago
@MagnusRulerHardt
... the volume of space (w,x,y,z right now, there are infinite of these points) is simply a different combination of each atom of matter and energy (unique locations). If there are only 3 atoms in the universe and there are only 3 points of each axis (there are infinite, a centimeter can be split infinite times. 3x3x3x3x3 = 243 realities), each combination of locations would be an alternate universe. Matter can't move through time, because that would just result in an alternat
MagnusRulerHardt 1 year ago
@MagnusRulerHardt
... e reality which already exists. You can't move all matter and energy into one point of time. That would just be removing all matter from all points (impossible to add/remove matter or energy from existence) to create a reality that already exists (there can't be 2 identical realities, they will be the same reality).
Our actions move us through w,x,y,z.
MagnusRulerHardt 1 year ago
Free will is an illusion, indeed.
deloreanized 1 year ago
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@deloreanized
You can pretend to know that.
MagnusRulerHardt 1 year ago
God does know the outcome of your actions, but it does not mean that you have no control of your choices in life.
i look at it this way
say you are sitting in your home at 7 am, at 8 am you decide to go to the park. God already knew you decided to go to the park.
ok. now instead same day
you are in your home at 7 am, at 8 am you decide to go to the beach. God already knew you had decided to go to the beach
either way God knew, but the choice was yours, therefore your theory fails.
jesucristoelmesias 1 year ago
@jesucristoelmesias God may have know what the choice will be,howerver could you at 7;30 am go to the mountain instead? No you could not b/c God knew your going to the beach, You only have a illusion of freewill your are going to do what God knows your going to do,from God perspective you have no freewill it is a illusion.
quebec10000 1 year ago
Does your theory still work if God is eternal and outside time, rather than the everlasting God in time view you seem to take? In other words, there is no such thing as future to God, your actions are eternally present to him. From our perspective it hasn't happened yet and from God's perspective it is happening in the present, so from neither perspective is it fossilised into a timeline that God somehow sees stretching into the distance.
lakester1979 1 year ago
@lakester1979
Nothing that exists inside a universe (if it existed outside a universe/existence, that would too be the universe/existence) can exist outside a universe. If it did, that would too be existence/universe. Nothing can exist "before" (= outside) time which is a dimension (w,x,y,'Z'). If it did, that would too be time. Saying something is eternal means that they are exactly as big as time itself. Time has a size like the width of the universe. Nothing is eternal except for existence.
MagnusRulerHardt 1 year ago
@MagnusRulerHardt Our understanding of what "universe" is, leaves a lot to be desired. I think Einstein said basically that without space (what most people would call 3 dimensional), time (linear) cannot exist. The universe consists of more than 3 (or 4) dimensions. Our scientifically provable (observable) reality does not. Also, to say that exsistence is eternal is a paradox, if nothing can exist outside of time as you say. Eternity is TIMELESSNESS. No beginning, no end, no linear time.
7greenjeans7 1 year ago
@7greenjeans7
TIME IS NOT LINEAR FOR FUCK'S SAKE!
MagnusRulerHardt 1 year ago
@MagnusRulerHardt I meant that 3d space limits our perceptions in a way that creates the illusion of linear time.
7greenjeans7 1 year ago
@7greenjeans7
Doesn't change the fact that time is not linear. There are still 6 more dimensions. As non-linear as it could possibly be.
MagnusRulerHardt 1 year ago
@MagnusRulerHardt You simply substitute "existence" for "God". It's just a change of name.
7greenjeans7 1 year ago
@7greenjeans7
Are you saying that God is empty 10 dimensional space? Hm... He can't be much of a God, then.
MagnusRulerHardt 1 year ago
your video is stupid. Your suggesting that if you show me the paper "i wrote" that i will somehow not be able to do something different. My arms will float up against my will and type exactly what It typed before.
This has nothing to do with a christian omniscient God and free will. God never told anyone EXACTLY what they would do in any case. The closest was Jesus foretelling Peter that he would betray Jesus, but he didnt say how. Try again.
TCollard33 1 year ago
You speak of man's free will as if it is something that everyone can have. That would mean that God had to look into the future and calculate all the choices we would make, and then figure out how to fulfill his ultimate plan for the world. The problem is that not only did God claim to know about future events, but he also laid out his plans of his own. God's plans are not submitted to man's choices but the other way around; man's choices are submitted to God's plan.
Entropy56 2 years ago
The better explanation is that looking into the future is nonsense. God cannot see what has not yet happened; God is not a time traveler. But if God can't see into the future then how does he know it? The answer is that God is controlling every event real-time as it happens. Our choices are really his choices, and our illusion. He knows the future because he knows what he is going to do. This preserves God's plans but destroys man's free will. Free will is an illusion that only applies to God.
Entropy56 2 years ago
Your argument seems to give man true free will to make a choice once, but then lock him into that choice so he can't change his mind later. Then you argue that because he can't change it, he therefore doesn't have free will. It doesn't add up.
My explanation takes into account the fact that God also has plans of his own that he revealed in the Bible. Those plans must happen as God said. Therefore, free will has to be completely not allowed from the start, and thus an illusion only.
Entropy56 2 years ago
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I see what you're saying but I don't agree, or perhaps see it differently. God can know one's choices and the eventual outcomes of those choices, but your analogies assume he somehow controls them, which is not the case. To refer to your fax machine, you might know what I'd write, but it was still MY CHOICE to write it. That you happened to know WHAT I would write is neither here or there as far as my free will is concerned because you did not MAKE me write it.
inphanta 2 years ago
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inphanta 2 years ago
I always hated this allegory. If some alien on a planet a billion miles away knew the fate of some random person on earth, how would their freedom to choose between chocolate ice cream and strawberry ice cream any different then everyone else on earth? It wouldn't matter! For all intents and purposes it wouldn't make a difference at all.
necrorat 2 years ago
@necrorat
If the alien showed the human a script laying out every decision the person would make during their lifetime, the human would recognize that they are not actually making decisions. He would see that he is powerless, just going through the motions, living out a script he didn't write.
If the alien keeps that information to himself, the human fate will not any less predetermined, he is still following a prewritten script which he is just as powerless to change.
azsuperman01 2 years ago
@azsuperman01 (this is necrorat) Perhaps I'm missunderstanding what you're trying to say. Are you agreeing with me? In the latter example you give, it demonstrates how a person can make decisions and still have a fate....
zombiemouse 2 years ago
@zombiemouse
No, it doesn't. It shows that if someone's fate is already written, that person is powerless to change it. They aren't actually making any decisions for themselves. The only difference is whether or not the person has the illusion of freewill.
azsuperman01 2 years ago
@azsuperman01 But if somehow everything has already happened from god's perspective and he's looking at an already recorded video of our choices that wouldn't imply we have free will would it now? I'm not sure how if God exists he could relate to temporality and time, but I'm giving a hypothetical.
RuinSonic 1 year ago
@azsuperman01,
Try this analogy
Suppose a man designed and built a slot machine that would randomly pay off 100 to 1
Of course he knew in advance the chances of a payoff on the first pull (as he had designed) would be VERY unlikely. yet failing to pay off the first time gets him so angry, he smashes it to pieces.
Then he spends hours building another one just like the first.
Again he gets madder, destroys this one, then makes another, & another & another...
Oh you get the point!
lostallmymirth 2 years ago 2
This omniscient God..
who knows everything that ever has & ever will happen, .. and he knew it long before anyone existed.. knowing most of us would question him, resulting in our burning torment in hell for forever.
Then after he watches this over & over for a thousand lifetimes, he becomes even more angry at the freewill he gave us to exercise.. so he furiously continues to create and destroy millions- yet- still.. he never realizes his own pointless stupidity!
lostallmymirth 2 years ago 4
@lostallmymirth
Excellent analogy, I like it!
azsuperman01 2 years ago
@azsuperman01
Thanks, but to be honest with myself, the analogy somewhat misses its mark.
While the slot machine maker knows that his machine WILL payoff eventually, he just does not know when.
God, however knows in advance EXACTLY who will question him..and when... which makes his absurd activities way less rational than that of the machine maker.
lostallmymirth 2 years ago
@lostallmymirth
Good point.
azsuperman01 2 years ago
@azsuperman01 Wow, finally someone with the Biblical and Scriptural answer. Yes, we are following the predetermined plan of God [as the Scriptures say] but we are more than robots. YES, there are similarities between robots and humans however robots cannot LOVE, we are so much greater than a mere robot. The robot argument is not going away, however it does not do any harm to all of what you have just said to be true.
JAKEHARRIS281 5 months ago
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FallofDarkness55 8 months ago
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@lostallmymirth Theists are subconsciously atheists because the only way to resolve this discrepancy is really by invoking parallel universes. In other words, our universe and the natural multiverse is a type of pantheistic "god". There never was a personal god.
FallofDarkness55 8 months ago
@lostallmymirth Well you should know that neither Christ nor all other Biblical authors NEVER taught that immortal people, unbelievers, or anyone for that matter would burn it hell. Hell meant something completely different back in the 1600s. "all will eventually be drawn to Christ (John 12:32). The teaching of endless torment is NO WHERE found in the scriptures.
JAKEHARRIS281 2 months ago
@JAKEHARRIS281
I am fully prepared to have you tell me that I am misreading, misinterpreting, or taking out of context just a few from KJV eg. Matt. 5:22 ..."Thou fool, shall be in danger of HELL FIRE" or Matt.25:41 ""depart from me into...everlasting fire", or Luke 16:23 "in HELL he be in torment"....but please be somewhat creative and original when doing so.
lostallmymirth 2 months ago
@lostallmymirth Do you debate Universalists? Hell is translated from two greek words and those words have completely different meanings. Hades has NOTHING in common with Gehenna. That's why you NEVER see FIRE associated with Hades. Hades LITERALLY means imperceptible. Sheol and hades are the same thing: unconscious death in the grave. "For in death there is NO REMEMBRANCE of Thee: in the grave [Heb: sheol] who shall give You thanks?" (Psalm 6:5). No one gives thanks because they are dead.
JAKEHARRIS281 1 month ago
@lostallmymirth You can believe that people are alive in sheol/hades but if you do, your interpretation CONTRADICTS Psalm 6:5 and MANY other verses. "Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [Heb: sheol], where you go"(Ecclesiastes 9:10). How can someone be alive in sheol with no knowledge, remembrance, reason, etc. Come on use your brain brother. Christ words are spiritual (John 6:63). Not literal fire.
JAKEHARRIS281 1 month ago
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JAKEHARRIS281 1 month ago
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@lostallmymirth The rich man represents the Jews who are in torment and are spiritually dead and Lazarus represents the Gentiles who have not the word as they do. That's why Lazarus ate the crumbs from the rich man's table and the DOGS licked his sores. The bread crumbs represents the word of God and the dogs and lazarus represent the gentiles. There is a gulf fix spiritually between the jews and gentiles. The purple, fine linen that the rich man wore is WHAT THE JEWISH PRIESTS WORE.
JAKEHARRIS281 1 month ago
@lostallmymirth Continuing with the dogs and crumbs symbolism. Matt 16:24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread [The word of God that the Jews have], and to cast it to dogs [Gentiles]. 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. The Girl is a GENTILE.
JAKEHARRIS281 1 month ago
@lostallmymirth "And He [Jesus] spoke this parable [consisting of five different examples] unto them." The "them" being the 'publicans and sinners' of verse 1, and the 'Pharisees,' 16:14. Jesus always and only spoke to the multitudes in public, in PARABLES, Matt. 13:34. "And He spoke this parable unto them...Continuing is next post.
JAKEHARRIS281 1 month ago
@lostallmymirth You need to start with my first comment if you haven't already. [1] "what man of you..." (Luke 15:4-7)--this is the first part of "this parable."
[2] "Either what woman..." (Luke 15:8-10)--this is the second part.
[3] "And He said, a certain man..." (Luke 15:11-32)--this is the third part.
[4] "There was a certain rich man..." (Lk. 16:1-13)--and this is the fourth part.
[5] "There was a certain rich man..." (Luke 16:19-31)--and this the final part.
JAKEHARRIS281 1 month ago
@lostallmymirth So we have: "what man, what woman, a certain man, a certain rich man, a certain rich man." It is so unmistakably clear that this five-part parable is all related to one another by the very first words of each presentation that it defies human comprehension to believe that even one theologian could or would argue that the first four examples are parables, but the fifth example is not. That is carnal spiritual stubbornness on a par to be envied by Satan himself.
JAKEHARRIS281 1 month ago
@lostallmymirth When he says "depart from me into eonian fire," they are departing to Earth. The Fire is the word and law of God ((Deut 33:2, Jer 23:29) which they will be taught after the first resurrection. "For when thy Judgments are in the Earth, the WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa 26:9). Don't you get that Christ words are Spiritual which means SYMBOLISM. In John 15 he speaks of the farmer, the vine, branches, and fire. Not literal. Farmer is the father, the vine is Christ etc.
JAKEHARRIS281 1 month ago
@lostallmymirth 1 John 4:14 says God sent Christ to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD. That IS the ultimate plan of God. Rom 8:21 says that the WHOLE CREATION will one day become the Sons of God, of course after they bow their knee, confess Christ, and learn righteousness. He is the savior of even those who don't believe (I Tim 4:10), however that doesn't mean they will enter heaven AS THEY ARE, no their flesh must be consumed by the fire of God. Fire associated with Judgment is spiritual (I Cor 3:15).
JAKEHARRIS281 1 month ago
I'm a believer, and even i know this. I'm not gunna get into how God can exist while we have free will, it'll take too long and isn't catholic view. But yes, if you look at time as ONE straight line, then this video is correct. However if you take into consideration parallel universes, well it gets a little more deep.
REALSLIK 2 years ago
if you already showed me the paper... what exactly stops me from deciding not to send it it?
corythesuit 2 years ago
@corythesuit B/c if you decide not to send it then you would not have seen it in the first place, If God knows the future it is already created from his perspective you have no choice therefore no freewill. Thank;s
quebec10000 1 year ago
This video is fucking bullshit, and I am not even going to explain why. Plus all you christian asswipes are retardet, so please stop commenting. You are like fucking trolls and without your annoying religious bitching, atheism wouldn't exist.
noromuhz 2 years ago
greek dude went completely over ur head dumbass he knows its gonna happen if ur gonna murder someone and want to change ur mind to not murder that person u cant so if u r going to hell u cant make it better so god basicley if hes real bullshit made the rapist and murderers do what they did so god is a rapist and a murderers and acountss for all the sins of the world so he is fuckin phycho
patrickledford420 2 years ago
awesome wish all christians would watch this
patrickledford420 2 years ago
you fucking religious people are fucked, i don't even think you people know what the fuck ur even talking about, god does not have a plan anybody morons, do you people not understand that science proves against all that bullshit even existing, like get off your ass and read a fuckng book, and not the bible, i'm looking for facts not bullshit.........
micEEZbro23 2 years ago
You know what's ironic azsuperman, God himself would logically be bound by that same mechanical slavery to his own foresight like we are, as he can't make himself wrong. Yet he can do anything we are told, meaning that he should be able to defy the impossible and still be able to make choices....meaning that hes fallible and his foresight is wrong. It's a paradox.
Ayatron34 2 years ago
Ayatron34 is an unplesant homosexsual abnormal BLACK GAY ! ! This lump of shit , this beast loves the Batman who is a manly white man.
Ayatron34 is a dirty African BITCH. ! !
6676plentybody 2 years ago
Bad example. Very bad example. Omniscience is not god over God. God knows what He wants to know and that´s the Best. It´s not a set it´s reality.
What He wants "makes" Him God. Not what He can. So you can delete your video now.
GreekTrustsJesus 2 years ago
It is set as God can never be wrong, thus he foresight can never be wrong. Duh.
Ayatron34 2 years ago
A quite good video about a near-timeless theological paradox.
When you're discussing God(or any other object, for that matter), you have to consider His attributes as they fit together as a whole. If you cherry-pick certain attributes and put them together without such consideration, you can end up with problems that wouldn't follow in a holistic examination. It's similar to how two puzzle pieces will fit seamlessly into their particular puzzle, but they may not fit together with each other.
Groundkisser 2 years ago
A logical fallacy. One cannot directly equate foreknowledge of a choice with forcing an individual to make a choice.
God knows a man will kill himself . God does not cause the man to purchase the gun or pull the trigger, yet God knows his course. Does God force the man to pull the trigger? Of course not. Were the man to change his mind, God would have known of that choice also.
The entire issue of "no free will" is yet another tired way of humans self-pity and blame God for their woes.
cputeq007 2 years ago
What if God told the man the day he was going to kill himself, where and when he was going to purchase the gun and where and when he was going to pull the trigger?
The man has the ability to change all of the details of the prophecy that was revealed to him by god...
law of excluded middle-a statement is either true or false...
if true...
then god didn't know because what he told the man was wrong...
BigBen81 2 years ago
Then God (or whoever the omniscient being is) lied to the man, or the man misheard. It does not prove that omniscience precludes free will.
abates17 2 years ago
right... you have to give up something...
because according to the bible god cannot tell a lie...
so you choose....
a. cannot tell a lie
b. is omniscient
c. we have freewill
remove the one you like the least... The post was a lot longer but youtube didn't put up my second continuation and i didn't feel like re-typing that sh*t. lol
BigBen81 2 years ago
Whether or not God can tell a lie is irrelevant. We are talking about whether omniscience (by any being) precludes free will. You have yet to demonstrate how knowledge of a future action means that action is not free.
What about this argument:
I have a perfect camera. It will take a perfect picture of an event as it happens, and it can not be wrong. It took a picture of you robbing a bank. Therefore, you had to rob the bank, because if you did something else, the camera would be wrong.
abates17 2 years ago
lol...
ok... lets pretend your god CAN tell a lie...
cool... but in its mind, it knows that it lied and also knew that what it really thought you cannot deviate from...
same thing...
and your argument about the camera is so flawed...
it doesn't have anything to do with the FUTURE...
it is present and past...
you haven't constructed an argument that refuted my claim...
you just provided a flawed example that didn't even contain a premise, inference or conclusion... good try
BigBen81 2 years ago
Okay, Ill spell it out for you:
1. Assume a perfect camera exists.
2. Assume the camera took a picture of you doing X.
3. Therefore, from 1 and 2, it was impossible for you to do anything except X, because if you did not-X, then the camera would be wrong. And since the camera is perfect, you must not have free will.
abates17 2 years ago
duh... because you don't have freewill in regards to the PAST....
but supposedly you have freewill in regards to the FUTURE...
so give an example with the FUTURE in mind...
if you don't mind sir
BigBen81 2 years ago
So you mean, for every act that happened in the past, I didnt have free will?
abates17 2 years ago
not AFTER you made the decision lmao...
the camera and picture analogy describes will AFTER an event....
You are starting to expose WHY you believe the shit you believe... I'm starting to think i'm talking to a teenager. At least i hope so...
BigBen81 2 years ago
Yes, Im trying to keep it simple so that you can understand my explanation.
So, again, if I have a picture of you doing X, does that mean that you did not have free will at the moment you did X? Or are you saying that your free-will action X caused the picture?
abates17 2 years ago
Its not about keeping it simple... i have no problems with that...
Its about making a correct analogy to describe the situation at hand...
1. provide a circumstance where events are described ahead of time...
2. show how after this prophecy is revealed the subject has the ability to deviate from the prophecy or what was in the mind of the prophet...
FUTURE, NOT PAST LOL...
BigBen81 2 years ago
Its called an analogy because it is a similar situation, not the exact same situation.
So, if I have a picture of you doing X, does that mean you did not have free will at the moment you did X? If you answer the question, I can explain the analogy.
abates17 2 years ago
Okay, since you havent responded yet, Ill jump to the conclusion:
If there is a perfect camera always pointed at me, recording everything I do, then it is impossible for me to do anything other than what it records, because it is perfect. However, I still have free will, because my actions determine what is recorded on the camera. So if you have a picture of me doing X, that does not mean I didnt have the free will to do X.
abates17 2 years ago
Dude.... the example is flawed...
You are purposely coming up with an inaccurate analogy and pretending like its the best you can come up with.,.
If its the best you can come up with then you should study more...
If its not the best you can come up with then you should use another example...
Make sure the knowledge of X pertains to the FUTURE...
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE FUCKING DISCUSSION IS ABOUT LOL...
FREEWILL IN REGARDS TO KNOWLEDGE OF FUTURE EVENTS....
Not past :( smh
BigBen81 2 years ago
Look up analogy in the dictionary.
And please, tell me why my analogy doesnt apply. Both have a person performing an action, and an infallible observer. You have yet to show how the observer causes the person to not have free will. Omniscience just happens to be a perfect camera that can see into the future, but the results are the same.
abates17 2 years ago
Actually you're the one with the logical fallacy. "God would have known of that choice also."? LOL logic fail. Listen to what you're saying buddy. God KNOWS the outcome, as it is exampled by the bible. For God, he knows the outcome of every choices made by every human beings. The outcome is "set in stone", for God. So if the man did not pull the trigger and changed his mind, it violates God's knowledge of outcome that this man would die. Two choices equal two different outcomes.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
You cant just say set in stone as if it proves something. By that logic, the past is set in stone, correct? If you had cereal for breakfast yesterday morning, that is a fact. It is unchangeable. You can not go back and alter that decision.
So, does that mean that you had no free will when you chose cereal for breakfast?
abates17 2 years ago
Yes if there was an omniscient/omnipotent being like your "God". You're obviously not refuting any of my argument because face it, you can't. Just read your bible, God foresees future outcomes and events therefore it is "set in stones" as it proves my point that if an omniscient being like your "God" knows an outcome, it is set in stone therefor our decisions, no matter how free we may seem to be, will be that of a decision that will lead to the foreseen outcome by your God.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
Im not saying that the past is set in stone IF God exists. I am saying, even if an omniscient being does not exist, then the past is set in stone, right? You did X yesterday, and you cant change that. So, does that mean that when you did X, you had no free will?
abates17 2 years ago
Again, you fail to realize that having no free will when i made that decision is only true when there is an omniscient being. And your argument of past being set in stone as opposed to future being set in stone is completely irrelevant and it does not make sense.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
And again, you fail to see the distinction between what IS true and what MUST BE true.
abates17 2 years ago
The past is set in stone yes, even if there is no omniscient being. However when i make a decision that's the present, and that "past" is essentially the outcome from when i make that decision. So, if there is no omniscient god, there is no outcome set in stone, therefore when i make a decision at that time, i have free will.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
So the past is set in stone, but at the moment you made that decision, it was still a free-will decision. Similarly, even though a future action is known (i.e. set in stone), that does not preclude it from also being a free-will decision. An omniscient being knows what you WILL do, but that does not mean that it is something you MUST do. Similarly, something you DID do in the past does not mean it is something you MUST have done.
abates17 2 years ago
"An omniscient being knows what you WILL do, but that does not mean that it is something yo MUST do." ROFLMAO are you serious? I already explained that it is what you MUST do or else it violates omniscience. Obviously your blind faith and devotion is preventing you from truly comprehending this. If an outcome is known to be absolute truth and must, the choice we make ultimately leads to that outcome if there is an omniscient being. If there is an omniscient being, what i did in the past means
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
No, its not what you must do. Your assumption is based on an error in logic. Will do is not the same as must do.
So again, if an omniscient being does NOT EXIST, but you did X yesterday, does that mean that you MUST HAVE DONE X (i.e. that you had no free will when you did it)? After all, the past is set in stone, right? And set in stone equals no free will, right?
abates17 2 years ago
Yes it is what you must do and will do if there is an omniscient being. Why are you repeating yourself when I answered it like two times already? Obviously you're ignoring my answers because you cannot refute them. I'm gonna stop this pointless debate since you cannot comprehend. What's funny is you haven't elaborated with any logic or sense, all you do is ask irrelevant questions and piece together out-of-context analogy as if it has any weight to it.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"Yes it is what you must do and will do if there is an omniscient being."
You keep making this fallacy. "Must do" is not equivalent to "will do." If God knows that you will do X, then yes, it is impossible to do something other than X. But that is only because it is logically impossible that you will do both X and (not X) at the same time. It would be true even if God didnt exist:
1. In the future, you will do X.
2. Therefore, you must do X, so there is no free will.
Same logical flaw.
abates17 2 years ago
Again, if an omniscient being does not exist, the future is not set in stone, therefore it is I who decide what PAST will be set in stone. Again your using my "FUTURE set in stone = no free will" and applying it to "PAST set in stone = no free will" which is incomparable as future with omniscient being is not the same without an omniscient being. The past which is set in stone without omniscient being is "set in stone" by humans. Past with omniscient being set in stone is done by God,
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
If an omniscient being exists, the future is still set in stone by humans; it is just known in advance by God. With omniscience, a cause can precede the effect, but that doesnt mean that the effect is the cause.
abates17 2 years ago
therefore no free will. This is getting pointless, I'm done debating with a Christian whose brain capacity is blocked by blind devotion. You cannot comprehend what i'm trying to say. It is logically irrefutable. You keep playing with words like "will do" and "must do" as if it has any sort of valid argument behind it. If there's an omniscient being, you MUST do what God foresees therefore you WILL do it, or else it violates God's omniscience. I'm done with your illogical comparison and stupidity
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"If there's an omniscient being, you MUST do what God foresees therefore you WILL do it, or else it violates God's omniscience."
And you have failed to prove this. By that same logic, if you WILL DO X in the future, then you MUST DO X or you will violate logic, therefore no one has free will.
abates17 2 years ago
Failed to prove this? What is there to prove? How can you NOT logically understand that "If there's an omniscient being, you MUST do what God foresees therefore you WILL do it, or else it violates God's omniscience."?
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
The correct statement is, "If there is an omniscient being, you WILL do what God foresees." That does not mean you MUST do it.
abates17 2 years ago
Here, I'll write out your argument as a proof. You tell me if this is correct:
1. God is omniscient.
2. God knows that in the future, you will do X.
3. Therefore, you must do X.
4. Therefore, you have no free will.
Is that your argument?
abates17 2 years ago
Yes, that's my argument. And your counter argument was that:
1. According to me there's no God
2. Yet what you will do is what you must do because of my argument of the situation where there is an omniscient God.
3. Therefore even if there's no omniscient being, people have no free will according to my logic.
And AGAIN, you cannot use the same logic when the VARIABLE is different. The variable is whether there is a God or not. If there is a God, your understanding of my argument is correct. But
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"And AGAIN, you cannot use the same logic when the VARIABLE is different."
Logic is logic. I am simply showing how, using your argument, humans must not have free will, regardless of the existence of an omniscient being. Therefore, either your logic is incorrect, or it does not prove anything about omniscience. Either way, it is wrong.
abates17 2 years ago
Again, you say "in the future, you will do x" when the variable is changed. "in the future you will do x" can only be used by a situation where there IS an omniscient god that knows what you will do with 100% probability. If there is no god, nobody knows what you will do, therefore the choice is yours. Your argument is invalid my friend. You're trying to use logic where it cannot apply.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"'in the future you will do x' can only be used by a situation where there IS an omniscient god that knows what you will do with 100% probability."
You are completely wrong. Logically, you can say, "In the future, you will do X." That is a logically valid statement, and completely true where X is the set of all actions it is possible for you to do. Really, if you don't understand this, take a logic class. Omniscience is not required to make statements about the future.
abates17 2 years ago
Well then that's not really my argument is it? It looks like I did not make my self clear. "In the future, you will do X BECAUSE the outcome is already set in stone by the foreknowledge of God"
Essentially, what i'm saying is with an omniscient God you do not affect the outcome. Without an omniscient God, you affect the outcome. Do you disagree that with an omniscient God you do not affect the outcome? Please explain to me how you can affect the outcome when the outcome is already known by God.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"Do you disagree that with an omniscient God you do not affect the outcome? Please explain to me how you can affect the outcome when the outcome is already known by God."
Because God knows everything that will happen. So if I do X, then God knows (and has always known) that I will do X. And if I do Y, then God knows (and has always known) that I will do Y. God knowledge is affected by my actions, not the other way around. That is the definition of omniscience: God knows what is true.
abates17 2 years ago
God's knowledge is NOT affected by your action because he KNOWS your action before you can make them. X and Y determines 2 different outcomes. God only knows 1 outcome, so how can this be true? Your action/choices determine the outcome, but the outcome is already known so how can u affect it? You say "If i do x, god knows i will do x" and if i do "y..." you CANNOT do Y because y would produce different outcome and it would violate god's omniscience. X and Y = outcome of X1 and Y1.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"God's knowledge is NOT affected by your action because he KNOWS your action before you can make them."
Omniscience is knowing everything that is true, and "I will do X" is only true if I actually do X. So yes, my actions DO affect his knowledge! That is what omniscience IS!
"but the outcome is already known so how can u affect it?"
Because omniscience means that effects can precede causes.
abates17 2 years ago
If your action in the present affects his knowledge then he is not omnipotent. Holy shit your understanding of time is so screwed up it's pointless and pathetic to even keep talking to you. "Omniscience is knowing everything that is true.. blah blah blah" that doesn't prove anything that i said to the post you're replying to. Also, you still didn't explain how can YOU affect the outcome in the present if the future is already known?
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"If your action in the present affects his knowledge then he is not omnipotent."
Omnipotence has nothing to do with it. We are talking about omniscience, not omnipotence. And if someone knows the future, and you DO something in the future, that affects his knowledge in the past, by definition.
"Also, you still didn't explain how can YOU affect the outcome in the present if the future is already known?"
Your actions affect the present by definition.
abates17 2 years ago
But the bible is just full of 1 outcome. Do u see in the bible that "IF This, GOd knows that"? No, it's always "God knows this", there IS no IF in presence of omniscience. IF indicates improbability and uncertainty, that destroys the whole Christians' claim that God is omniscient.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
Also, if you say God knows all the outcome because of your free will. Any HUMANS can make that sort of statement. If you do that, this will happen, NO SHIT. What separates omniscient being from humans is that an omniscient being says "I know you will do it", not "if you will do it, i know you will do it"
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"an omniscient being says 'I know you will do it', not 'if you will do it, i know you will do it'"
That's because the second statement is redundant. We say, "I saw that you went to the store," not "If you went to the store, I saw that you went to the store." The statement "I saw that you went to the store" explicitly includes "You went to the store." And the statement, "If you will do X, I know you will do X" explicitly includes "You will do X."
abates17 2 years ago
No, it's not. AGAIN you treat the past and future the same. Your analogy of "If you went to the store, I saw that you went to the store" is not equal to "if you will go to the store, I will see that you will go to the store". And even if it turns out to be "You will do X", that's not much different from tyranny and command. rofl.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
I'm not saying that past and future are the same. I'm saying that if you say, "I know you went to the store," that explicitly includes the statement, "You went to the store." And if an omniscient being says, "I know you will do X," then that explicitly means that "You will do X" is true...not because the being CAUSES it, but because he KNOWS it.
abates17 2 years ago
God's knowledge cannot be affected by your action as he knows what you will do BEFORE you do them. Omg this is so pointless. Your answer to "How you can affect the outcome when the outcome is already known" is "Because God knows everything that will happen." You're not providing any sort of logically convincing answers, you should take a class that explains to you what time really is. And being omniscient by definition isn't knowing what is only true, it is essentially knowing everything.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"God's knowledge cannot be affected by your action as he knows what you will do BEFORE you do them."
If you have an omniscient being, his knowledge is affected by the future, BY DEFINITION. Otherwise, it's not omniscience.
"And being omniscient by definition isn't knowing what is only true, it is essentially knowing everything."
No, it is knowing everything that is TRUE. If you know things that are false, then it's not omniscience, is it?
abates17 2 years ago
Im sorry to see that you have given up responding. I was actually curious as to how you would answer my arguments about knowledge of an event being caused by that event.
abates17 2 years ago
God gives an illusion of choice. It is like a man on a path and theres a fork in the road. On one path is a barrier, beyond it is beautiful land. The other path is a terrible path with a lake of burning sulphur at the end. One of those paths will have an impenetrable barrier of impossibility blocking you from going down it. So if you are marked for damnation by God, you can try and try to believe/repent, but you will never succeed. You cannot possibly.
That's not free will. It's an illusion
Ayatron34 2 years ago
if there is no God, you cannot say what you WILL do is what you MUST do because there is no omniscient being to know what you WILL do therefore what you do isn't a MUST do. If you apply my logic to two VERY different type of situation of course it would fail. But like i said, the variable has changed, so in case of no God, nobody knows with 100% probability (like God) what you will do therefore what you will do is your free will.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"if there is no God, you cannot say what you WILL do is what you MUST do"
Sure I can.
1. In the future, you will do X.
2. Therefore, you must do X, because if you didnt, it would violate 1.
How can you disprove this? If you will do X, how is it possible for you to not do X? Please demonstrate how you can do something other than X without violating part 1 of the proof.
abates17 2 years ago
No you can't, because if there is no God, your "1. In the future, you will do X" immediately becomes obliterated. If there is no God, NOBODY knows what you will do in the future except yourself, so what you will do is YOUR choice and free will.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
So essentially, the correct sentence would be "1. in the future, you will do X BECAUSE God knows you will do X. Therefore you must do X because if it didn't it violates #1 of God's OMNISCIENCE. Again you're applying a logic where it applies GOD into a situation of no-God. The logic with God immediately becomes obsolete. "In the future you will do x because someone already knows u will do x". if there is no god, there's nobody that will kno wat u will do therefore determining the outcome is u.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"So essentially, the correct sentence would be '1. in the future, you will do X BECAUSE God knows you will do X.'"
No, the correct statement would be, "1. God knows you will do X because you will do X." Omniscience is knowledge of things that are true. You have to assume "You will do X" before you can assume "God knows you will do X."
abates17 2 years ago
LOL like all Christians, you contradicted yourself again. You say "the correct statement would be, "1. God knows you will do X because you will do X."" Meaning "God knows you will do X" is BEFORE "You will do X" as you stated just now. Then you go on to say ". You have to assume "You will do X" before you can assume "God knows you will do X."? FAIL. You couldn't be more wrong. lol
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
And even if it does make sense, you have to assume "God knows you will do X" first because he's the one with the knowledge of future before you even "Do X". There is no much difference between "God knos u will do x because u will do x" and "U will do x, because god knows u will do x"
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
So HwarangOfFaith, have you just given up completely? I was curious to see how you would respond to my latest points, but you have been strangely quiet. Have you given up already?
abates17 2 years ago
Lol given up? How petty of you. Grow up kid. All your points are the same redundant crap that is illogical according to the definition of time. You didn't answer any of my questions with any substance. Anyone who understands omniscience can pull your answers out of their asses like that, not to mention those answers were completely illogical in perspective of time.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
YOUR action in present affecting God's knowledge? Seriously you have no understanding of time. Okay, here. God knows everything in this universe before you were even born. YOUR action affecting God's knowledge is like saying your actions are affecting the past. Do you still not get that your actions are always made in present and its relation with past and future? I am not going to reply to any of your baseless answer unless you can provide answers using correct understanding of time. Till then.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"YOUR action in present affecting God's knowledge? Seriously you have no understanding of time. Okay, here. God knows everything in this universe before you were even born. YOUR action affecting God's knowledge is like saying your actions are affecting the past."
Yes, exactly! That is what omniscience IS: present and future actions affecting knowledge in the past! You can't have knowledge of the future without the future affecting the past! Do you really not get that??
abates17 2 years ago
God knowing your fate means that if he made you to repent, you will repent, no matter what. If he made you to be damned, you will be damned no matter what.
Yes, you have the "illusion" of free will", but your fate is not your own. It is predetermined. That is the point being made in this video. You cannot have free will if it is impossible to choose a choice thatd make god wrong. Understand?
Ayatron34 2 years ago
perhaps u misunderstood my argument. Here:
1. God is omniscient
2. You will do and MUST (u can take out the must if u want) X because if you didn't, it violates #1.
3. You will do what God foresees. God knows the outcome so he sets the outcome in stone, therefore you don't really have free will because you cannot affect the outcome.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
Your argument is not well formed. First of all, "You will do and must do X because if you didn't, it violates 1" is incorrect, because you did not include a statement, "God knows you will do X." In fact, the entire argument is not logically sound.
abates17 2 years ago
well formed or not, you understand what i'm trying to say. "You will do and must do X because if you didn't, it violates 1, 1 meaning God's omniscience."
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
something what i MUST have done. You really don't allow yourself to comprehend this do you? Your logic fails so hard it's not even worth to keep this argument going. It's been proven by people far intellectually superior to you that free will and omniscience cannot co-exist unless some compromise is made for your "God".
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
"Past" does not equal "future" in the perspective of "present". Surely you're smart enough to realize this.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago
In short, youre saying that with an omniscient being, the future is set in stone, therefore you have no free will. However, in the absence of an omniscient being, the past is also set in stone, but those actions were still free will actions. Therefore, set in stone does not imply no free will, so your argument about omniscience is thrown out the window.
abates17 2 years ago
Again, you're comparing past and future in perspective of present as if they were the same thing buddy. You obviously did not, or cannot comprehend what i'm trying to say. In short, i'm saying with omniscient being, the future is set in stone, therefore you have no free will. WITHOUT omniscient being, future is NOT set in stone therefore you HAVE free will. You're saying past=future in two different context, your argument couldn't logically and intellectually fail so hard.
HwarangOfFaith 2 years ago