Al Sullivan - Near death out of body experience.

[adam3251]

Your brain does crazy stuff when you deprive it of oxygen and/or pump drugs into it.

[bunflinger]

Nothing will ever be good enough for you, cloud person. Janice Minor Holden has approx 100 veridical OBE's during NDE. That means they were corroborated by the people there at the time, LOL . Read the Dutch Denture case and explain that. For you to be right, every single one of them has to be wrong LOL . What are the odds of that LOL. How about the corroborated case Penny Sartori witnessed in her study. You can find it on her website. No good ? Lucky guesses ? LOL.

.

[finalcloud13]

@bunflinger Sure thing, I'd love for me to be wrong, I like discovering new things. This one just hasn't met its burden of proof yet. Kindly provide me a link to any of these totally legitimate articles and I'll happily read them. BTW, you sure use lol a lot, I wish you had better things to say than that.

[bunflinger]

@finalcloud13 Go to Dr Penny Sartori's website and you will find the corroborated case, patient 10 I think it was.

Google> 'articles in english denture case' < . LOL LOL LOL I was copying you LOL LOL ....

[finalcloud13]

@bunflinger You don't seem to understand what evidence is. All you keep throwing is anecdotal material. Sorry, these are not worth next to nothing as evidence in the scientific realm. Maybe you think demon possession is real too?

[bunflinger]

@finalcloud13 Where do bone heads like you come from, cloud person. I gave you the opportunity to read Penny Sartori's excellent corroborated case. And you come back with all this rubbish. Dying brain Sue Blackmore= outdated old nonsense that has been accepted as Gospel by closed minded materialistic psuedo

sceptics who don't know their arse from their tit.

[finalcloud13]

@bunflinger Penny Sartori's excellent story that has gotten nowhere. Maybe someday someone will come up with something worthy, I'm certainly hopeful. BUT IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET, idiot.

Bye.

[bunflinger]

@finalcloud13 "Penny Sartori's excellent story that has gotten nowhere. Maybe someday someone will come up with something worthy"

Penny Sartori's study was ignored by the sceptics because they didn't like the conclusion, you ignorant buffoon.

Pim Van Lommel's 8 year study likewise. You don't know anything about the subject.

[finalcloud13]

@bunflinger AND, have you wondered why in all these cases people seem to only have these when they're dying or near death or in cardiac arrest? It's because a dieing brain does not function correctly, firing random signals everywhere so you will see weird things. It has been studied.

[finalcloud13]

@bunflinger Also, don't get mad at me because you don't have anything solid to offer.

And also for any idiots that still don't understand my point, I KNOW and AGREE that NDEs and OBEs HAPPEN. This means I DO think that the person FELT like they came out of their own body. I DO NOT think they actually did in real life. Please read and frigging comprehend what you're reading.

[bunflinger]

@finalcloud13 You have swallowed the classical sceptical bullshit about OBE's. They DO ACTUALLY come out of their bodies. That is why they are able to get veridical information. What comes out ? That which SEES and processes and remembers. I can't believe you don't think there is anything unusal about the Al Sulivan video.

Four doctors have told you they can't explain it and yet YOU who hasn't read the literature think you know better.

You are in for a big (frigging) surprise cloud person.

[finalcloud13]

@bunflinger The mistake that you're making is that when you or someone doesn't have an explanation for something, you jump to the conclusion of something that's not justified. These people somehow heard or saw something in the room they were in while they were in a comatose state. All that says is that it may be possible to hear or see in a state previously not thought to be able.

[finalcloud13]

@bunflinger By the way, there has never been a single VERIFIABLE case of any "out of body experience." There are anecdotal stories, but those aren't evidence. There have been some attempts like putting cards or pictures up above the ceilings or on high shelves, where they could only bee seen by someone actually flying, but people who claimed to have OOB experiences in those test rooms could NEVER identify the test objects. OOB fails every objective test.

[bunflinger]

@finalcloud13 By the way, you are on the page of a verified OBE . Four Doctors have just said there is no normal explanation for it. When you are a sitting on the toilet, do you doubt that it is really happening ? Al KNOWS what he saw and what he saw was what he shouldn't have been able to see. Read the literature and stop trying to take a short cut by quickly scimming through with your biased nonsense.

[finalcloud13]

@bunflinger You still don't get it, do you? It doesn't matter who says it, until you are able to scientifically confirm it. When a doctor tells a person they have a certain illness, we know that if we REALLY wanted, the doctor can show us the exact proof that the person has that illness.

It doesn't frigging matter what you say, it fricking matters what you can show.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn what the fuck Argument from Ignorance and BURDEN OF PROOF is. God damn.

I'm done.

[finalcloud13]

@finalcloud13 There could be an entirely natural explanation for it. If you don't know the explanation, then simply assuming it's out of body is an argument from ignorance, and worthless. You'd need evidence to show it was out of body.

[airtonyt1]

bunflinger (interesting name) however you are wrong. There is peer reviewed scientific literature on NDEs. Read the Dutch study in the Lancet (one of the most prestigious medical publications). There is also a peer reviewed Journal of Near Death studies. And there are countless other studies in this area.  Catch up on the literature, you may be surprised.

[bunflinger]

@airtonyt1 I think you've got your bunflinger mixed up with final cloud person.

[finalcloud13]

@airtonyt1 I read the latest article from the Lancet, relevant material on pages 2116 and 2117. I can't post links so go to the wikipedia page on near death experiences, go to the bottom and click the Lancet source. It's just like I thought, it's merely an article ABOUT near and out of body experiences, and in no way supports it. It just says that the tested patients' experiences do not match up with what actually happened, therefore, the experience is most likely a hallucination of some sort.

[AnduinX]

@finalcloud13: Actually, I've had an OBE too, as has my brother. These things are very real - and your statement that people can't have sensory perception without a brain is baseless. The assertion has not been proven despite what you may believe. That's the very core of the dualism vs physicalism debate, which continues on even today.

[finalcloud13]

@AnduinX No, my statement that people can't have sensory perception without a brain is entirely valid. What the hell will you process it with if not with the brain lol. I don't doubt that you and your brother had an experience which you believe to be an OBE, I just don't believe you when you say you in reality you came out of your body and saw/heard/felt things that were actually happening in real time.

[finalcloud13]

@finalcloud13 Usually if something doesn't pass peer review there's something wrong with it that makes it unscientific. What makes you say that peer review is corrupted?

[finalcloud13]

@finalcloud13 I also out of curiosity read up on the first three people on your list: Kenneth Ring, Sharon Cooper and Melvin Morse. Unsurprised to see that all I find are essays of stories they heard, but not one offer a method of testing the validity of them. I even quote Kenneth Ring in one of his articles: "seeing no reason to doubt the authenticity of his claim..."

Yup, basically they just don't think anyone's lying, so they believe whatever they hear. Sorry, not good enough for me.

[AnduinX]

@finalcloud13: Is your position then to dismiss all anecdote and case-study accounts that go against your world view as liars? Even when there are multiple people involved - such as the medical staff in this video? Due to the bulk of NDE accounts, I find that position to be untenable. I also think the validity of an anecdote needs to be examined on a case by case basis, not dismissed out of hand.

[finalcloud13]

@AnduinX The reason that the scientific method is so successful is because it doesn't accept anything less than concrete evidence that can be tested, where predictions can be made and reproducible results can be obtained.

Simply, the notion of invisibly flying out of one's own body is - you gotta admit - an extraordinary claim. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Anecdotes is just not enough, even when there are multiple anecdotes.

[finalcloud13]

@finalcloud13 How do you approach claims of people saying they've been abducted by aliens? Sightings of so many legends like lochness monster, bigfoot, fairies, leprechauns, demons, chupacabra, etc. etc. etc.?

All of them are anecdotes, and all of them have multiple cases from different people. But it's not like we will therefore say all of these happened or exist. We need more. We need better. We need stronger evidence than anecdotes.

[finalcloud13]

@finalcloud13 And also, I totally agree with you that the validity of each anecdote needs to be verified. However, in the end that verification will have to require a step further than just anecdotes, and that has not happened yet, but maybe someday it will.

[AnduinX]

@finalcloud13: I’d love to hear of such evidence too. I think the reason that we’re lacking evidence is because science is just now beginning to take the idea seriously. The horizon research foundation has kicked off the first well-funded expansive attempt at studying veridical perception in their awareness during resuscitation study, which is still underway.

[AnduinX]

@finalcloud13: Well, I think there’s a big difference between the NDE and those other subjects. Aside from the fact that there is far more anecdotes behind the NDE, there's also a very big difference between the quality of anecdotes between those things. The NDE evidence includes much more cases of doctors and medical staff, family members, or friends verifying out of body perceptions. Bigfoot sightings usually involve a lone man in the wilderness and a great deal of alcohol.

[AnduinX]

@finalcloud13: What also impresses me about the NDE is that many people who speak of accurate veridical perception stand to gain little, and some actually stand to lose a great deal, such as doctors who went on to risk their multi-million dollar medical careers to study the phenomenon.

[AnduinX]

@finalcloud13: Who defines what an extraordinary claim is, and who defines what constitutes extraordinary evidence? Without a clear definition of either, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" becomes a license to dismiss anything out of hand. Beyond that, why should I require a much steeper degree of evidence before I accept survival than anything else? Simply because it’s outside of the physicalist paradigm? I have never heard a good response to this.

[AnduinX]

@finalcloud13: The problem with the peer reviewed process in my eyes is because it has become more a scientific conformity measure than an unbiased quality control check. Most entries are dismissed out of hand by the 'old guard'. Just look at how much outrage and commotion was made when a scientific journal published Bem's paper on ESP.

[AnduinX]

@finalcloud13: I also think the evidence for OBEs and accurate veridical perceptions is very compelling. There's plenty of researchers who have found positive results - Dr Ken Ring and Sharon Cooper's work on the blind. Dr Melvin Morse's work on children. Dr Jeffrey Long's material, and others. Just because something is not peer-reviewed in a prestigious journal does not make it invalid as evidence, especially given the corruption of the peer-reviewed system itself.

[TyneOdu]

its called astral projection buddy, you can probably do it if you practice for like a month...not that hard.

[finalcloud13]

@TyneOdu LOL!!!

[bunflinger]

So, all you closed minded sceptics, what are you going to do with this ? Don't start rooting through the case to find out if the patient was told about the arm movements by Dr Takata or Doctor La Sala because he wasn't. I think your best bet is to ignore it and hope it will go away.

[finalcloud13]

@bunflinger This is so stupid. Out of body experience my ass. What the fuck do you think you see with if you have no eyes out of your body, or a brain to even fucking process the image that's coming into your eyes?

[bunflinger]

@finalcloud13 Stupid morons like you, final cloud person, should read the literature before commenting on things they know absolutely nothing about. And don't swear at me. 

[finalcloud13]

@bunflinger You're not going to find peer reviewed scientific literature on this poor subject because crap like this doesn't make it through. Why doesn't it make it through? Because there's never anything other than the person saying "really, I did it!" 

[AnduinX]

@finalcloud13: There is already peer reviewed material on the subject, see airtony's reply, and for your information the largest NDE study ever to take place is underway, involving many hospitals in many different countries. So I guess "crap like this" does make it through. The anecdotal evidence for the NDE is far stronger than a lone person saying 'really, I did it', as you put it, because there are numerous cases where accurate veridical perception has been confirmed by others involved.

[finalcloud13]

@AnduinX There's a difference between near death experience and out of body experiences buddy. For one, near death experiences don't necessarily fall under supernatural while an out of body one does, because the person is claiming to actually have sensory perception outside of their body, which for all intents and purposes should not be possible.

If there're legitimate peer reviewed material on out of body experiences, I'd like to see it though I'm pretty sure it won't be impressive.

[RealityQuestioned]

@finalcloud13 (-_-) They both claim to have sensory perception without use of the brain or body. Science hasn't caught up to this. I've been out of body, and I don't believe there is a rational explanation for my experience. It is not only an extremely improbable and useless function for a brain that evolved on it's own, but it is extremely improbable that this function would even be possible by accident.

[finalcloud13]

@RealityQuestioned Oh great, now you're also claiming to have done it too. You can't have "sensory perception without use of the brain." This has been tested, we know how to make people blind, deaf, paralyzed, etc. When a person with no arms says they feel an itch where it used to be, do you think there's actually an astral arm there? When a blind person says they see various colors or shapes, do you think it's really there in front of them or do you think it's a trick in the brain? Same thing.

[finalcloud13]

@AnduinX Um, yeah, the brain processing images and sounds aren't the same as consciousness and self awareness. Robots can process images and sounds but they're not conscious. Nobody really cares where consciousness itself comes from, the point here is that he's saying that people are seeing images and hearing sounds without the eyes and ears that we WITHOUT A DOUBT know is required. How do we know? Because we can intentionally make people blind and deaf by disabling these organs.

[AnduinX]

@finalcloud13: No, we know that we can make people blind and deaf through physical means while they're alive and limited by the physical, that says nothing about the senses when they're no longer here. Also correlation is not causation, and every correlation between mind and brain that can be explained by viewing the brain as the producer can just as easily be explained if you view the brain as the filter/regulator. I subscribe to Huxley's 'reducing valve' view of the brain.