Book of Mormon, Archaeology & Metals Part 3 (the texts)

[FIREMANHENDOU]

I am so sorry for this guy! I believe he really thinks that Joseph Smith was a prophet? 

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@FIREMANHENDOU

Bless you for your concern.....

[rickgigliotti]

Definition of wasting your time - Looking for proof for the Book of Mormon.

What a joke. 

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@rickgigliotti

A better definition is being a moron posting worthless comments on another site like you did here. Now THAT is a joke.

[Xmetalearth]

I like my video games lol.

[LDS4Life71]

great video

[jaimesandoval1988]

The Mormon religion was a racist religion!

[karuspery]

Yeah,God made them black and white-how awful.When will the anti white brigade try Him in a court of Human Rights?

[jaimesandoval1988]

??I dont follow what you are saying??

[karuspery]

James chapter 1 vs 5

John Chapter 4 vs 48

Mathew Chapter 13 vs 4

[keowndaniel]

Could you tell me your view on The Book of Abraham being mistranslated by Joseph Smith. Something that has been proven by Egyptologist Dr. Stephen E. Thompson. Not trying to start an argument just wanting to know you view. You can write back or send a video.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Yes I can tell. Thompson is simply not the last word on anything about the Book of Abraham. I don't see what he said as proof. Based on the reading I have been involved in with the literature, Thompson hardly proves a lot. Why do you suppose he proved anything?

[keowndaniel]

Well he was not only Thompson many Egyptologist have said that is was mistranslated.

[karuspery]

Who? When? Where? How? Just get down on your knees and ask God as James says you should do. Stop seeking proof.The proof will be in your heart but the seed will not grow in Barren soil.

[TrueSaintsLDS]

I really liked your comment here. I could not have said it any better. :)

[michaelguild13]

thank you for being smart :P

[joeyslaptop]

@keowndaniel Joseph Smith's translations provided interpretation and divine inspiration. Rather than just translate word for word, Joseph Smith would interpret as he translated, rendering a deeper understanding and providing context not available to a typical scholarly translator. Dr. Rhodes, an Egyptologist and religion professor has a publication that may provide you with additional understanding as well.

home.comcast.net/~michael.rhod­es/JosephSmithHypocephalus.pdf

[JustinMartyrJr]

(Prophets & Christ preaching the WORD in all lands!) "But if any one desires to see many bodies filled with a divine Spirit... who teach the Gospel of Jesus in all lands... [they are the prophets. Christ was prophesied would also] "...commencement among them in a bodily shape, He might arise with might & power upon a world of souls, which no longer desired to remain deserted by God." Ante-Nicene Fathers, 4:609, Origen responding to Celsus charge that Christians' "god" was asleep for centuries.

[JustinMartyrJr]

"If Christ was before Abraham, as He claimed to be, then surely He must have manifested Himself to other nations beside the Jews, or other nations, including the Jews, must have derived their religious systems and ideas from

some common source." Lundy, Monumental Christianity, 1882, p.98.

[JustinMartyrJr]

Tertullian AD 145-220 wrote that Christ has "illumined the whole world with the rays of His gospel." Christ was "a light to the nations; wherefore He had determined & decreed that the nations also were to be enlightened by the law & the word of the gospel." Ante-Nicene Fathers 3:173, 346, 356, An Answer to the Jews, 14; Against Marcion, 4:1, 9. Art works show the word of God flowing from Christ into the 4 corner parts of the whole earth. John P. Lundy, 1876, Monumental Christianity, 188-190, 282

[JustinMartyrJr]

Ariel L. Crowley, BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD; Hallenfahrt Christis, in Richard Paul Wulker, Bibliothek der Angelsachsischen Poesie, (Leipzig: Wigands, 1897); Himmel Hölle Fegefeuer, Das Jenseits im Mittelalter, 1994, Schweizerisches Landesmuseum, Zurich,

Wilhelm Fink Verlag, Munchen; Roger J. Adams, The Iconography of Early Christian Initiation: Evidence for Baptisms for the Dead,

1977, in LDS Church Archives, Doc. Thesis; DT, Upon Them Hath the Light Shined, (SLC, Ut, RH&PS, 1995-99. To name a few.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

WOW! And *none* of these wonderful sources were even the ones I have and was thinking about! There is even more than I realized! Thank you JustinMartyrJr!

[JustinMartyrJr]

See the You Tube series:

Christ's descent into Hell & Baptism as type of Descent

CHRIST DESCENT INTO HELL BAPTISM FOR DEAD AS TYPE OF DESCENT 2

More in this series in the works. Dr. Huge W. Nibley, Mormonism & Early Christianity, SLC & Provo, Utah: Deseret Book Co., & FARMS, 1987; Jeffery Burton Russell, Satan, The Early Christian Tradition, Ithace & Lon.: Cornell Un. Press, 1981; T. W. Doane, Bible Myths, NY: Truth Seekers, 1882; John P. Lundy, Monumental Christianity, NY: J W Bouton, 1875

[JustinMartyrJr]

4: Montanists & Marcionites did baptism for the dead. 1 Cor. 15 Paul uses ritualistic type of resurrection in Baptism for the dead, in defense of the resurrection. Baptism being a type of "buried with Christ, raised up with him." Many in Paul's day, didn't like doctrine of physical resurrection; so he defends it, & points out inconsistency of those Christians at Corinth who were performing ritualistic type of a bodily resurrection, while at the same time saying that there was no resurrection.

[JustinMartyrJr]

Part 3: Both Christians & Pagan weddings anciently, on up to modern times, both have "hand fasting" hand grips in wedding ceremonies. Thus, it's no wonder that scholars can also find both early Christians & pagan mystery religions performing, anciently, their own versions of baptism for the dead. In historic Christianity, Christ's descent into hell & baptism as it's ritualistic type, are well documented in art, writings, monuments, councils that later rejected different versions & later legends.

[JustinMartyrJr]

Part 2: Baptism, virgin births, sacraments, & mysteries, (as mentioned by early anti-Christians, as being some of the things that early Christians borrowed from paganism). Are just some of the parallels that critics have noted. Justin Martyr's 1 & 2nd Apologies deals with these issues. He says that there's parallels because paganism had once had the true gospel given to them by true prophets, whom demons heard & counterfeited. Thus the parallels. Wedding hand clasps are another, anciently & now!

[JustinMartyrJr]

Baptism & Baptism for the Dead were both ritualistic dramas of Christ's descent into the spirit prison (Eph.4:7-14; 1 Pet. 3:15-22; 4:5-6; Isa. 42:6-7; etc.) Because early Christianity was one in many "mystery religions," early anti-Christians, upon noting this, charged that early Christians took from Mithra & other pagan mysteries. One of the doctrines was Christ's descent into the underworld. Celsus, AD 170-80, mocks early Christians for this belief. The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 4:419-20, & 448

[JustinMartyrJr]

Ariel L. Crowleys comparison of the "Anthon Transcript" with Egyptian demotic characters was first published in 1940s, The Improvement Era, Vol.45 #1, Jan. 1942, p.14-15, 58-61; Feb. 1942, p.76-80, 124-5; Vol.45, #3, March 1942, p.150-1, 182-3; Vol.47, 9, Sept. 1944, p.542-3, 576-83. The Improvement Era, Vol. 55, #9, Sept. 1952, p. 644-645, entitled: The Anthon Transcript & the Maya Glyphs, by Ariel L. Crowley. "About The Book of Mormon," Ariel L. Crowley, 1961, Deseret News Press, p. 5-59.

[JustinMartyrJr]

To Apologeticsman: So, you told us where it's illegal to find evidences, that it can't be LDS sources. And that it's critics we should go to for "evidences" analysis. That we'll probably never find evidences anyways, (so why look?). So, is this your way of rejecting any sources that I post here, so you don't have to be bothered with doing a little reading? You still haven't given a good definition of what evidences means & would be. Artifacts? Script samples? Stone monuments? What's been dug up

[TheBackyardProfessor]

YEP! That is precisely how they do it. DIsallow any evidence they can't deal with, and THEN pronounce judgment in complete ignorance of the real and actual evidence, that they priori disallow! Too weird! Flippin funny too.

[JustinMartyrJr]

To Apologeticsman: It sounds like to me your going to establish the usual double standards of where, how, & what LDS apologists can consider as evidences. And anything that comes from them is to be rejected in the name of they're "trying to invent truth to fit their own lusts." I think is more like, they're presenting evidences as to "why they believe," in what the Holy Spirit has already confirmed to them is truth. Testimonies complimented by a careful on going search for evidences found!

[JustinMartyrJr]

?s for BackyardProf.: Take a close look at the art works in the series: Christ As Cosmic Cruiser, there's some art works of Mayan resurrection hand grips, that are interesting to compare with historic Christian art works of Christ's descent into hell, the Anastasis, or resurrection. Do you know of any other examples of these types in your research & readings. Great Bibliography you gave here. Most these books I've never heard of.

[apologeticsman]

LDS archaeology is non existent. You'd better off trying to prove Mormonism by philosophy than by science. There is simply no evidence for any of the historicity of the LDS scriptures.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

I agree, but there is much instruction from the external materials as well. There is plenty of evidences for the historicity of the scriptures.

[TrueChurchLDS]

Swords clearly existed in Mesoamerica, and they were so labeled by Spanish conquistadors.

Some descriptions of Nephite/Lamanite swords make more sense if a non-metallic sword such as a macahuitl is indicated by the text.

In short, critics have not taken the time to understand the Book of Mormon text and the Pre-Columbian context from which it springs.

They read the text in the most naive fashion possible, and so dismiss it unfairly.

fairlds . org

[JustinMartyrJr]

Define what you think "evidence" means, then we'll go from there. For example, what would be considered "evidence" that Christ went to other nations?

[apologeticsman]

There were supposedly several million of the so called ancient Israeli/Indians living in the Americas, so they would have had a vast and noble culture, and would have left behind tons of proof of their existence. Where are the scrolls and stones with Hebrew and or Egyptian on them? Where are their temples, and their millions of weapons that surely would have fallen on the great battlefield? Where in fact is any trace of their existence? The Aztecs and Mayans were evil pagans, not Jews.

[JustinMartyrJr]

Your approach is to make a claim that can easily be overturned through research & time. That of: "There is simply no evidence"!

What if there was? What then? Would that evidence be set aside because it goes against what many have almost made into a CREED, that "There is simply no evidence"!

Are you looking to see what evidences there is? Do you know, for example about "The Lachish Letters"? Again, define what you mean by evidence, & what would be considered evidences, then we'll go from there!

[apologeticsman]

You would be better served watching videos about archaeology and the Book Of Mormon. They are made by so called anti Mormons, but they are all well researched scientists who have taken the time to sift through the rubble so to speak and show fairly conclusive evidence against Mormon history.  I would like to see any examples of Egyptian hieroglyphs , reformed Egyptian, or Hebrew on any scroll or structure in any ancient American excavated site, any of their temples, any references to Jesus

[JustinMartyrJr]

Oh! So if I want to get a fair unbiased presentation of Christianity, I should go to Atheists & Anti-Christians? Take a look at the Lachish Letters, their manner of writing, the characters used, the time frame they were written in, & then the Anthon Transcript. Also: The Anthon Transcript A Series of Articles in

The Improvement Era Jan. - Mar., 1942, Ariel L. Crowley, LL.B. at SHIELDS web site. After this I have other sources. These cell limiting amounts of sources we can post.

[apologeticsman]

No, but if you want to be "fair" as the fair LDS . org says they are, you'd want to look where people are actually trying to find answers, not to someone who is trying to invent truth to fit their own lusts. Archaeology is a science, and it is only as good as the data discovered. If nobody has discovered any reference to Jesus in ancient America, no hieroglyphs from Egypt or "reformed Egyptian, and no Hebrew written from a vast civilization numbering in the millions, it probably doesn't exist

[JustinMartyrJr]

Invent truth? Apologeticsman, that's what early anti-Christian Celsus wrote to early Christian apologists about "inventing" the doctrine of Christ's descent into hell to preach the gospel! Of "inventing absurd apologies by which you are ridiculously deceived". Origen Against Celsus II, 43, in PG 11:864-65; Ante-Nicene Fathers, 4:419-20, & 448.

So, if it's from LDS apologists, it's not worth even looking at? Is that standard also for Christian apologists' works to, in showing Bible evidences?

[apologeticsman]

there is some scriptural evidence that Jesus did do something out of the ordinary in "hell" or as it would be truly, the grave or Abraham's Bosom, but to make an entire doctrine vicarious baptism based on that is uneven and not in harmony with the vast wealth of scripture references which tell us that there are no second chances after death. Jesus most likely preached to those who died as righteous men, but had not known the name of the risen savior at their deaths, but it happens no more

[TheBackyardProfessor]

The work for the dead is entirely in line with the scriptures. I can do no better than go to 1 Corinthians 15:29 for starters. OBVIOUSLY it was known anciently in Biblical times.

[apologeticsman]

If you do a little bit further study, you will find that it was not Christians who practiced this, but it was the pagan Corinthians who did this. The Christians would not have seen any need to baptize themselves for dead people, since people had to choose to receive Jesus by faith in order to be saved, and baptism was only a sign that one had done that. See Acts 10:40-48 for an example of people who were saved before water baptism

[TheBackyardProfessor]

If you do a little bit more study on this, you will see that both Biblical scholars and LDS scholars disagree with your weak interpretation about this being a pagan practice. There really has been a bit written this last decade on this. Apparently you are unfamiliar with the recent discussions.

[apologeticsman]

No, I am quite familiar with the discussions and the context of the passage in question. When interpreting the Bible, one must employ the Bible as it's own best interpreter, because if it is indeed "God breathed" it must be 100% accurate and infallible and have no contradictions in it. Therefore, if one found a verse that stated that we need vicarious baptism, the Bible would be contradictory and self defeating. In the context, Paul speaks of "THEY who baptize for the dead" i.e. non Christians

[TheBackyardProfessor]

No you are not familiar with them at all. The Bible is nowhere near 100% asccurate. This is utterly ridiculous. That is not to say it is not scripture, but it is nowhere near 100% accurate. And interprets itself? Good heavens are you seriously *that* far behind the times?!

[apologeticsman]

Amen! If I am behind the times for believing that God is incapable of lies or allowing His holy word to be lost or corrupted, then so be it! I will be a fool for Jesus! I'd trust the Bible with it's 20 or so disputed verses over any LDS scripture, especially the B.O.M. which has been altered at least 3000 times, including doctrinal alterations.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

God ***obviously*** has allowed some scripture to be lost, as well as to be hidden to come forth in later times. You don't understand the history ofthe Bible and the formation of the canon process do you.

[apologeticsman]

yes I do, but I don't have to understand history or canonization to know the nature of God. This so called "free agency" that man has is not freedom to override God's sovereignty, and there is nothing God values or defends more in His sovereignty that His word. His word is His bond, and that is why the Bible says it is impossible for God to lie, because He is absolutely holy and sovereign. I know that there were some things that didn't make it into the Bible, but we obviously didn't need them

[TheBackyardProfessor]

We aren't trying to override God. Good heavens man, is this the kind of gibberish we have to listen to from a so-called "informed Christian"?! Surely you can do better mind reading than this tissue of absurdity?

[apologeticsman]

Oh no? If one puts down the validity of the Bible, one can not escape putting down God Himself. Jesus is called "The word of God" , meaning that He is the culmination of all of God's promises and prophesies, so if you can't trust God to keep His word pure, how can you trust anything He says? You can't.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

We don't put down the validity of the Bible, that is your weirdly misunderstanding interpretation of the facts. If one (such as you) ends up worshipping the Bible, making it perfect and infallible, one commits idolatry, for which penalty is death, according to the Bible.

We seek to understand the Bible realistically, not phony Evangelical type of interpretation with no reality here. And when we learn the facts, we are not putting down God. Good grief man you need to take elementary logic 101

[apologeticsman]

I don't worship the Bible, and as far as my logic is concerned, it is my strongest trait. I do however worship a perfect, holy and righteous God; a God without beginning or end, and one who is wholly sovereign over all He has created. A being such as this could not and would not allow His message to mankind to be fundamentally tampered with or corrupted. Yes, there are translations that are corrupt, including the Jehovah's Witness Bible, but man can not corrupt the original.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

It's not your strongest point with the logic of what the Bible is and is meant or supposed to be. Yes, I worship God also realizing he freely allows mankind to be wicked and do stupid things, like lose His own Word. I mean he let his own house, the temple be destroyed, not once, but twice! And He still hasn't have it made yet again! He allows men their wickedness, even to destroying His property, and losing His own Word. All you have to do is read a little realistic history about it all.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Since we don't have anything like the original then this is a moot point. What we have is corrupted and incomplete. The original resides in God alone apparently. We certainly don't have it here on earth. We have something even more important. Yes, living prophets like ancient Israel had, to guide us as to what God wants us to do. Scripture is wonderful, but living revelation is vastly superior, as it is from God Almighty Himself, now what someone else has written and interpreted.

[mtcanz]

@TheBackyardProfessor : Scripture is wonderful, but living revelation is vastly superior

Ps 138:2b "...For You have magnified Your word above all Your name."

Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

2 Tm 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Living revelation that contradicts existing revelation (scripture) is not to be trusted.

[JustinMartyrJr]

We have a more sure word of prophecy, wrote Paul, & we do well to heed it. What about the living Word? Why did even earliest Christians regret to admit that the spiritual gifts were fading out of the Church? Why are there so many different versions of the bible too? They all read differently through the centuries. It's critics that inadvertently put down their own bible when they use disinformation propaganda tactics against LDS. Which if done on bible, would make it not pass their own tactics.

[apologeticsman]

There was an indefinite but sure time limit on tongues and prophesy, so I have no doubt that when they stopped, it was because God desired them to. The vast majority of the versions are merely improvements on older ones, not different messages, but more clarity and modern language usage. The LDS seem to have no real trust in the scriptures, as if they think God is too weak to keep His word pure in the face of human will. I trust in God, not in man, and it is God who saves, not prophets

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Or rather, they stopped because men stopped having faith in God, not that God wanted His gifts to stop. Again, men have the freedom to act with God or act without God. When we act without God, we lose God's gifts. When we return to God, he sends prophets, apostles, etc., who hear His word, and teach us the ways of God again. God constantly sends prophets as Amos 3:7 teaches.

[JustinMartyrJr]

"Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, &... I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?...I command all men, both in the east... west... north... & south, & islands... that they shall write the words which I speak unto them" 2 Nephi 29. The WORD = Christ, in historic Christianity, goes forth into all corners of the earth, so that people could be saved wherever they were.

[JustinMartyrJr]

Christ the WORD, says Origen in response to early anti-Christian Celsus, wrote that the WORD was distributed into all corners of the earth. Anti-Christs had gone out, so also had the WORD to combat devils everywhere. Why do critics like to say B.O.M's account of Jesus' visit to U.S. couldn't have happened, cause Mayan, etc., were devilishly paganistic, which many were. But then, wouldn't that mean devils reigned here, but Christ didn't? Was HE neglectful, as Celsus charges? NOT! ANF 4:557, 609

[JustinMartyrJr]

Don't need book of Enoch? Why's it cited by earliest Apostles? Then earlier Christians? Because it talked about pre-existence, war in heaven, & fall of satan & his angels. What about Shepherd of Hermas? Once in canon, later rejected? Does God's sovereignty include speaking to other nations too? Or is he neglectful like early anti-Christians said the Christians' god was? Earlier Christians answered: Christ, angels, prophets, apostles went to other nations, cause they need God's saving words too?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Archaeology a science? That's pushin it. And if no one finds materials IN OUR TIME, then that is proof against its existence?!? Please tell me yer kidding would ya please.... So if it doesn't occur in the time limits that *WE* place on things, they don't exist.....LOL! No, sorry, I mean ***LAUGHING OUT LOUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!***

[TheBackyardProfessor]

We *have* examploes of Reformed Egyptian, declared by bonafide Egyptologists, but you won't believe it anyway.

[hopeforyourlife]

Ancient Mexico?

Mayans?

Incas?!

Are you not in Idaho?

Why is the discussion on South America when I was told the BoM is set in N America?

Where is the Hill Cumorah?

Throw me a bone here.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

I've thrown 655 bones. Ya just gotta keep learnin like all the others are doing.

[TrueChurchLDS]

Since 2005 the items archaologically verified. They include evidence in the Old World of steel swords and metal plates for the right time and place, and in the New World, a strain of barley, thrones, cement, highways, and military regalia and assorted weapons, Hebrew Words, evidence of reading and writing, and multiple expectations for the geogray and history.

fairlds . org

[JustinMartyrJr]

Also, to add to your list, horse remains, carvings, elephants remains, carvings & legends about them in earlier US. Demotic Egyptian writing characters matched up with samples from the Anthon Transcript, etc., (Joshua Moses Bennett, The Gospel of the Great Spirit, (SLC, Utah: Morning Star Pub, 1990). Plus, legends, art works, types & early Christian doctrine about Christ's world wide treks, (see video documentary: Christ As Cosmic Cruiser, ) on You Tube, click on my name above, Justin Martyr Jr.

[glycoboy]

i've watched a lot of your vids and i support you.. i'm confused on this one though.... although very interesting you say, "do you get the point? (about the extent of ancient culture etc" but i don't get how this proves or disproves the b.o.m. for the critics

[CIRELUX]

A Book of Mormon vid game base on the wars whould be fun. you know what I have a game that you make up you own storys that whould be the best I think for that. :)

[skyaglow]

I appreciate and respect how you show exactly where your study and resources come from.

I thank you for doing the foot work, and then present it to us!

Thats a whole lot of research you have done!

thank you

[TheBackyardProfessor]

I am almost more than sure critics will simply toss it all off as not being "real scholarship," or something silly like that - GRIN! Many of them apparently are allergic to reading and learning other views other than their own.