These guys are from the group called ARMA but there are a lot of other groups that are also training HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts). I will send you a link to the hema alliance training partner finder map, I hope there is a group near you.
@1169Timothy No, this is what it looks like when you have actually learned the techniques and have them down to a science. Training is slow, awkward, and clumsy, which is why those "other assholes" do it, so they can get better.
@Dirkan1234 A zornhau is a diagonal oberhau, often done against another incoming oberhau to simultaneously arrest the incoming strike with the strong of the blade and park the point in the attacker's face. It is then followed with a thrust. Or, it could be just any old diagonal oberhau depending on how you interpret things.
@MrMRwhitaker - Given that you are training with people who John Clements had to boot from ARMA for exteremently bad behavior we do not expect for you to hear any thing positive about John Clements. Myself, I have studied under Clements for 11 years and I don't have a single negative thing to say about the man.
soul of sword fighting. I gravitate towards the longsword and wish to read The Archeology of Weapons: Arms and Armour from Prehistory to the Age of Chivalry by Oakeshott. Wonderful video
(cont) But I guarantee, a 5 year old with a sword can be rendered ineffective by an adult. It takes true bodily skill to wield a melee weapon. The sword was one of the first steps in the evolution of human combat and has remained effective to this day. It is a beautiful tool throughout all cultures whether it be curved or straight, single or double-edged, short or long, heavy or light, meant for thrusting, parrying, or cutting, each one has some aspect to attribute to the entire physiology and.
One of my favorite videos ever. I'm not advocating the use of weapons at all, but as a true gut feeling, I cannot deny the badassery. Melee weapons are vestiges of the past when Man could still rely on his physicality as a weapon. I feel modern weaponry (guns, explosives, weapon systems, etc;) eliminate the rudimentary reason for avoiding combat that is not necessary, therefore making the raising of arms justifiable. Any 5 year old could pick up a gun and accidentally kill another life...(to be)
@Eiburya It's true that firearms can be used by anyone, but there is still skill in their employment and use. Wars are not fought by computers or won by idiots, as so many people seem to think today. A 5 year old with a rifle will be no more or less effective versus a 5 year old with a sword. Neither know what they're doing and both can kill if they happen to, though dumb luck, score a solid hit and knock someone out of the fight.
@Eiburya One could argue that CQB is as much a martial arts style as Kunst de Fechtens and is just as much about muscle memory, reflexes and smart movement. Of course, melee weapons have something firearms sure don't - you can practice with them on a live partner with proper safety gear! So I can certainly see why you might find them more interesting, as you can do more in the sport arena with a good longsword than you can with a pistol.
And no, there's no denying melee weapons are cool. ;)
I own broadsword wasters. It's very difficult to find any info on their technique. Is it similar to longsword technique or would I be training incorrectly?
@hybriddefect Depends on what you mean by "broadsword". A broadsword is a basket-hilted sword, but a one-handed medieval sword with just a crossguard is called an arming sword. Let us know which one you mean and we can help you better. :)
@Kunstdesfechtens I am referring to the one handed medieval sword. I did not know it was called an arming sword. I've been slowly catching on these last couple days, that I get more basket hilt results when I search the term broadsword. ;)
Thanks for the correction. I still have a lot to learn.
@Kunstdesfechtens I measured the grip at 5 inches with a 2 inch circular pommel (making it difficult to hold like a longsword) and a 3/4 inch cross guard. I don't know if it's considered a ricasso but the dull part of the blade is 2 inches and the edge portion is about 29 1/2 inches. The blade width itself is almost 2 inches. Looking around (even on the site and shop I found my wasters off of), this particular type of sword gets misnamed a lot, it seems.
@hybriddefect I'm not an authority on the arming sword. You could use it like a messer for the most part, as detailed in a few manuals. You just have to be careful about techniques that use the nail, which an arming sword doesn't have.
It doesn't seem right to label this a sport. It may have escaped your attention but these arts of mars were also called the arts of defense. People don't just take up martial arts to pass time and/or compete, but also to learn how to defend oneself. The thing is unlike the east we have lost our western heritage of martial defense and even though the weapons change I am sure some principles remain valid.
@2voles It is and it isn't. Historically, it was practiced for sport, self-defence and warfare. They all went hand in hand. Most people today go through their entire lives without ever having a violent encounter, so the SD aspect is really not applicable for most people. These weapons have been obsolete on the battlefield for half a millenium, so warfare is right out. That leaves the "sport" part the most likely _application_ for modern practicioners, if not the most likely motivation. (con't).
@2voles (con't) My own motivation isn't sporting at all. I use the sporting aspect to help troubleshoot my interpretations. I enjoy competition, but I'm more concerned with doing the techniques correctly and optimally. I enjoy the "art" of it, but that's just me. I know people who practice PRIMARILY for tournaments and sparring. Their motivation is winning, plain and simple. And that's OK. It's no less valid in my books.
Valid questions. The first thing that comes to mind is bit when he's doing something else, like shift guard or taking a step back or something. Or just don't give your opponent the time to do any of these techiques, to always have the initiative. A good example for that is this drill:
watch?v=ByxdpgWS9GU
You can also counter these counters so that you hit with your secound strike.
Yet another thing, your opponent don't know how you will do that first attack.
@fgh77hgf Striking first is the ideal. That's one use of the "Master Strikes" which are designed to lessen the chance of a single-time counter by closing the angles the counter is likely to take.
I just cant believe that most people in our western world still believe that knight fighting style was just mere brute force......I mean, I like samurais and katanas and all that eastern stuff, but I just feel pity for those who think that our western heritage is just crap compared to Asian, ALL DUE TO THOSE FANCY MARTIAL ARTS FILMS (NOT ALL OF IT..)....Keep going guys, you're just DAMN AWSOME!
After seeing this, I am joining my local chapter. It's a very good time to get involved, this sport is growing by leaps and bounds, and there are still some untranslated manuals to study. Who knows to what heights we can take this?
@aerik9 Well, it kind of is a sport since none of us will ever do this "for real", no matter how realistic or martial the intent of the training is. I don't have a duel to the death planned any time soon, so all my training is _effectively_ sportive and recreational, even if I don't think of it that way.
@Kunstdesfechtens Certainly this Art is recreational and scholarly, but it is not a sport in any sense. ARMA members don't hold or compete in any sort of sporting competition, but rather stick to the purely martial aspects of the Art in their practice. There is a difference between sportive and recreational.
@aerik9 ARMA does freeplay. They're not trying to actually kill each other when they do so. That certainly falls under the "play" part of "in earnest and in play". That makes part of their training sportive, even if the end goal is not competition. The sportive side of MA is a perfectly legitimate part of MARTIAL study. Freeplay is basically a sport (competitive within a certain ruleset; i.e. controlled takedowns, and other safety precautions) with the goal of creating a good martial artist.
@Kunstdesfechtens I can't say that components of ARMA training methods are not sportive, but what is more important is that the end result is not sport. While freeplay is definitely more "play" than it is "earnest," the intent demonstrated in such practice places it beyond true sport. It is, at best, a half-sport, with its "players" seeking to "win" not by sword-tagging, but by legitimately powerful strikes that would kill/disable just as readily in "earnest" as they do in "play."
This video shows that the blade is not the only part of the sword.To many people think so today. You must also remember that it is the man that is the true weapon, the sword is only an extension of yourself.
in the zornhau, isnt the attacker supposed to cut in a quick, small arc as to place the point in the defender's face as the attacker finishes his step?
@xtcarnage15586 There is no "better". If you want to be a longsword fencer, use longsword techniques. If you want to do well in Kendo matches, become a Kendoka. Since none of us fight for real with swords anymore, do what you find the most fun. As far as "real life' technique goes, the longsword stuff here is better, since that's what it was used for. Kendo is used for a VERY specific sporting ruleset, not for earnest combat with sharps.
@xtcarnage15586 Kendo and indeed the majority of today so-called "martial arts" are usually "combat sports" of gentlemen. There's no intention of killing but more of sparing between civilized gentlemen.
ARMA focuses more on practical and historical martial arts: killing people. Of course you don't get to kill any.
You can watch a few vids of them doing sword fights: they do it fast, brutal and aim to wound the opponent. Other combat sports aim to "score" instead.
@xtcarnage15586 To demonstrate the last point further, ARMA fights focuses on whether you score a hit anywhere: arms, legs, chest, face, etc ... In a fight with sharps, a hit anywhere may kill you (most of the time soldiers were killed after receive a hit in the legs or arms), eventually. Other combat sports, if you watch closely tend to go for hits that get points, depending on the sport.
To uderstand this video, you should know, this is just techniques. In fight, this is just ways, how you can kill your enemy without thinking of your move. Just the way how to do that, sparing looks quite diferent, but trust me, it¨s realy great to know this in a sparing.
@duran3d they aren't players. this isn't a game. All fighting arts are dangerous. (remmber that when you put your kids in to karate) they both knoiw what they are doing. that takes away much of the danger of doing something stupid. even in full plate armour they would be fully safe. think of it this way you are a can of food and they have a canopner. it doesn't matter what you have on they will get to you if they wanted to.
What I don't get about this sort of video, no matter how fancy a pirouette or riposte can be, is they aren't taking into the account the OTHER fighter's move after he's blocked or been blocked.
It's all well showing what you can do if someone attacks you with a sword and holds that position while you stab them in the face but two people of equal skill wouldn't fight like that.
@ChainsawGutsFuck There are some freeplay videos that show just that: /watch?v=6bZWuNd-tqY and here's one that shows the back and forth of various counters: /watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA
@ChainsawGutsFuck You have a point, and you're wrong. But both in equal measure. You are right, two men of experience fighting would look drastically different. However, versus an inexperienced fighter, these techniques may be all that's needed to win. I am reading the Ringneck/Liechtenauer... manual... again. What'll happen (sometimes) is a strike like one in the video, followed by the counter. (The kill in this video) Following that is the counter to that, and so on. ...
@ChainsawGutsFuck ... Both swordsmen will continue until fatigue and physical fitness, or mental power, or skill render one the victor. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, these videos don't show all. But, they ddo show if this, then that. I believe the only way you can truly learn is to join ARMA, or read the work of the old masters yourself, find a partner, and train.
@xsnowxdemonx At the most core level, swords all work the same way, You either push/stab with a point or you have to pull/draw the blade across. Human beings all have the same basic shape. There's only so many ways we can move with a sword and have everything work. Similarities are going to happen, and even when someone "takes" from another style, it can't stay the same because a different person is doing it with a different form. It'll change and isn't "from" anymore.
@xsnowxdemonx go figure >.> multiple cultures converging towards the same/similar techniques.. you know, to ME that doesn't make sense.. I mean why would they converge towards the Effective techniques? :O
This has nothing to do with kendo, it's just fencing.
If the samourai (who never fought any any real war apart from quarreling between themselves) discovered martial techniques with the sword,then the european knight (who were real warriors and not duellists) discovered these techniques too.
There are some very intteresting fencing books from these period but they are not well known to the mass compared to the overrated kendo.
I will take the exemple of the euro and arab knights: They fought hundreds of massive scale wars with very different ennemies (mongols, Timurids, turks, amongst themselves etc) and won. Their aim was to kill and destroy the opposing army not honor or wathever else. They constantly improved their techniques and equipment to be more efficient killing machines and to match their new ennemies. This is a "real" warrior. kendo is an art, not an effective way to kill
@solwen: Let's see if I got it right here then: A real warrior is a man/woman who wants to improve his/her tecniques so that the warrior can match their enemies and maybe overpower them :). But a manslaughterer is not a real warrior at all, which I think you're refering to as well what a true warrior isn't (manslaughterer that is) :). Ty then m8 for the info. But correct me if I was wrong in any way or so :/.
A warrior will use/do all he can to defeat his ennemies. He will evolve and use the most effective technique to kill. Let's compare him to a factory: Cold, not always beautiful but effective at what it does.
For a duellist/kendo/samurai the way you fight is more important than the effectiveness of your techniques. Let's compare him to a craftman: Artistic and beautiful but ineffective.
For a martial art like fencing whose aim is to kill, the first one (warrior) is preferable imho
@solwen: Ok is all I believe I can say XD. But yeah, I would also prefer the first one(warrior) which I believe you said was the most effective in combat :/.
@solwen: Ah, so you know of warhammer 40k too, huh?! Good that most people know where my name originates from :D. Yes, I prefer melee I use to fight with whatever I think a sword(or mace) could be in my mind such as a stick or something like that hehe and my sisters and I use to fight(carefully) so we don't hit our fingers. It is funny indeed. Ty for the respond m8.
I want to see one of you guys against a samurai, i love longswords and katana's, and have respect for both, but i think longswords and renaissance martial arts are underrated
This is amazing. You guys look like the illustrations from the famous 16th century german illustrated text, whose name I cannot recall. It is one of the only written sources for the art of the longsword.
@colinkadink : yes that is the one i had in mind. but i had the century wrong. wikipedia says 1460s. also you might check out the Book of the Sword by Richard Francis Burton, reputed to be the best swordsman of the Victorian era and one of the first white men to go to Mecca on the haj.
Impressive! the real interpretation of Zwerchau: preventing, intercepting and moving out of the opponent's line! I guess you didn't harm edges cos you rotated blades at the impact..
I seriously wish there was some place around here where I could study European swordsmanship. No one here seems to be interested on that, and I can only find kenjutsu dojos nearby. It really looks fascinating and I am very enthusiastic about such matters. It's really a shame that this sort of martial art is not nearly as popular as the Asian ones.
This is awesome and very educational to see. All I have seen are drawings from history books of these but that is not quite the same as seeing real people performing the moves. Bravo!
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
You should always wear headgear when "fencing" with armas clowns because they take pride in hurting their training partners. You guys should buy matching wigs so your socks don't look so nisch nisch.
@Evassassin This person is actually a serious swordfighting instructor. Please be more analytical and less general once you watch four seconds of a video and make a judgment. Also, get off 4faggotry. That *chan sucks ass, "redundant adjective is redundant" memes are old and common. Stop spouting memes in public.
We do have fencing Masks thank you very much. So far no one that I herd ever got hurt, they teach you control with contempt...
Also the socks are like that because thats how they trained historically. This is to show the student or students which side is their left & their rite when looking at them...
Look in your area for "Historical European Martial Arts", "Western Martial Arts", or "Historical European Swordsmanship". If you can't find anything, I can help you locate a group.
Regarding the wide stances, I think the issue is camera related. Simply placing a foot a few inches off center from the other makes a significant difference, not to mention where your weight is directed. Also, this /is/ a demonstration, and certain things may be exaggerated so the MA-familiar viewer can get a better idea of the subtleties (usually fundamentals) at play .
Regarding defense, I think it's a scientifically verifiable fact that head on collisions = max damage to both parties
interesting, dont have any longsword experience really, but is it just me or are the basic stance really wide and easily pushed over at the wrong angle? and that angle is consistenly exposed to the opponent?, i dont know, this is from a kendo background
The stance used in longsword is very different from Kendo. It has to be wide since one has to be able to enter grappling, and lowering your centre of gravity and widening the stance helps that. It doesn't have to be THAT wide, but it's not written in stone. I prefer a more "face on" stance, but still at least shoulder width apart. Kendoka don't have to worry about being dumped on their butt with a hip throw, hence the more upright, feet closer together stance.
a fair enough point, might try longsword fighting one day...although with kendo, though we dont have grappling, you do get thrown on your ass in the higher ranked sparring, in fact, i won a tournament with a well placed leg sweep
I think some Longsword would certainly improve a kendoka's understanding of swordsmanship. Some take up iado to get an idea of the mechanics of steel, but I think longsword would be even better, since you get steel PLUS sparring. It's certainly a lot of fun, and learning new ways to fight is always a good idea. Should you get the urge, drop me a line and I'll see if I can find a group near you.
haha, yeah, its a technique only for adults or higher ups, which is why im surprised when im allowed to use it agains them...(im 18 and not very high ranked) anyway, we do kan shin ryu which is a pre ww2 style and thus would have alot of 'illegal' moves in it, like leg strikes etc
Hah! That explains that. I'm pretty much positive that the type of Kendo I was doing was the modern, standardized version.
It's been a while, so I figured I'd check. I gave up on Kendo a while back due to time constraints, and have only found the time to practise Taekwondo.
There are only so many ways to kill human with a sharpened stick. Of course there are similarities, martial arts is one of the things that all nations and races have in common.
0:21 is known as Hengen, followed by a cut with the short edge known as a Schiller. It is not from Kendo, though there are resemblances between various kinds of swordsmanship.
i say only the cutting edge is good for defense and offense, and the side and back are last resort, ok?
you guys say that the side and back can be used for defense quite effectively, and that the cutting edge is too brittle and therefore not very good for defensive maneuvers
i only say what i say because i've seen what happens when one follows what you guys say
Sounds like the swords you used were not made correctly.
If the swords you used to test the striking were "real", as in historical and accurate, they would cost thousands of dollars. Did your sensei really allow you to shatter swords that cost thousands of dollars?
And: The Samurai believed an educated warrior is a better warrior. You would do well to do some scientific research on these matters.
Pressure = Force / Area
More pressure, more damage. More area, less damage.
you mean to say swords made these days aren't real? i remember mentioning that we used cheness katanas, and cheness cutlery seems to be a well experienced company in the making of any kind of blade... about the scientific research... if science only goes as far as P = F / A to you, i should tell you it's much more complicated than that. you should also consider microstructure of the steel the katana is made from, grain size, components percentage, and so on
How much do katanas flex when they receive impact on the flats? Longswords appear to be quite springy, partially because the blades are symmetrical on either side. Katanas on the other hand have one edge and would naturally behave differently.
well on the side of any blade, longswird or katana, the sections of the structural basis of the steel that withstand stress are the same. on the cutting edge though there's only a few atoms, so one has to start talkiing about macrostructure. the katana has soft steel on the back of the blade which significantly reduces the impact received by the harder steel of the cutting edge. also the curved shape allows a growing area (well, string, of atoms...) of contact uppon impact
but for something as straightforward as "let's hit this katana with that other one and see what happens" and what happens is the cutting edge will take more punishment without visible damage than the side or back of the blade, does one really have to go into theory after witnessing experimental results?
Hmm, it looks like katana's structure is significantly different from a longsword. In the case of longswords, the same "let's hit this longsword with that other one" test yielded opposite results. The edges were badly damaged while the flats were just fine, maybe just because the longsword has better flex?
There's also a mythbusters episode about this, but of course...it's mythbusters, not a good scientific test. =P
You keep saying this yet all of the sources I have read contradict this. I've even seen footage of a Japanese Kenjitsu master instructing his students to use the BACK of the blade; watch this video from 8:24
watch?v=s4yaQDwxoaE&feature=re lated
Also as Caliburnis stated a while back this isn't just 'theory' its the combined experience of many many others passed on as knowledge.
"when you block your opponent you should always use the back of the sword, because that's the hardest part..."
if there's anyhting we've agreed on, it's that the cutting edge is the hardest part of a katana, so i dunno if this "master" knows what he's talking about. and he didn't block either, he just used the back to hit the side of the other guy's bokuto... that's ok, nothing wrong there, but if he were to block... with real katanas at play...
Lost in translation I think anyway, the point is that you don't use the edge of your sword for anything other than striking your oponent. Another point that Caliburnis and I have made is that there are no 'blocks' in Japanese or Medieval fencing. You don't seem to grasp the concept of defending with your blade by deflecting or beating off an attack without that manouver being a linear 'block'.
of course i can "grasp the concept" of defending (it's not a concept by the way... there's no conceptual knowledge about defending with a sword...) that's why i noticed that old man in the vid you directed me to wasn't even blocking anyway. after all this i still think you guys should worry more about doing than talking or stuff that other people, that you consider to be masters, say
I know the guy wasn't 'blocking', maybe you are missing the part where I said that there were no 'blocks'. He was defending using the back of the blade by beating off an oponents attack. BTW the 'old man' is Risuke Otake and hes the head of one of Japan's oldest kenjutsu schools.
My guess is their translator probably doesn't know anything about Japanese fencing, and as the Sensei was explaining how the back is the best part for blocking, the translator did the best he could and translated as "hardest" when perhaps the Sensei was saying something like "strongest, most resistant, or most resilient" which was simply translated as "hardest" in English. Technical subjects are particularly difficult for translators to render properly from one language to another.
i train under Tomita Sensei. he never did TELL me (as in, out loud) how to block, parry or anything defense related, but always made me realise, in bokken practice, that the back and side of the blade are actually good targets if you'd want to destroy your opponent's blade, or at least make it fly off his hands, so i don't really use the back or the side anymore, the less i became to use them, the more effectively i defended and counter attacked.
looks a lot like kenjustu to be honest. i guess that both arts came to the same natural conclusions. two human beings fighting with sharpened "sticks" made out of metal won't allow many differences, regardless the origin of the art
There are some differences, but of course sword arts must share similarities since one only keeps what works. The German concept of "winding" is rare (but not unknown) in Kenjutsu. There is less blade to blade contact as well, since the Katana cannot withstand the same stresses.
the katana can and will withstand any number of blows, with any force, as long as they are received by the cutting edge of the blade, instead of the side or back. but of course, even great masters make mistakes, so blocking fierce blows isn't always a good idea if you can't do so using the cutting edge. if you block with the side of the blade... you're dead. THAT'S why there isn't much blade to blade contact in kenjutsu, or pretty much any japanese sword martial art.
Funny, I've done some Koryu kenjutsu, and many deflections were done with the FLAT of the blade, or with the edge to teki's flat. Mind you, different ryuha do things differently.
I would have thought that avoiding contact with the cutting edge since it would be the hardest, and therefore most brittle part of the sword. And the back of the sword being of softer steel more apt for parying since it would not chip just dent
the back of the katana is made softer precisely because the cutting edge is hard and brittle. as a result, all blows blocked with the cutting edge have their force absorbed by the back, and so neither does the cutting edge shatter, or the back gets cut by another blade's edge. if you block with the back it's no use if the steel is soft, it'll get cut like butter, it won't absorb anything. and the side is pretty much like glass. only the cutting edge is good for striking and blocking
That actually wouldn't eliminate all the damage. The back edge helps with overall survivability, but blocking linearly will have all of the force hit the blade, and then fracture the cutting edge.
As well, a cut to the back of the blade is not going to cut it like butter. Steel does not go through steel like that using human strength. The general principle revolves around deflection, not 'absorbing' the blows.
besides, you'll notice that in kenjutsu, in defensive positions, they always point the cutting edge to the opponent's cutting edge, never the back, nor the side. AND the way the hands wrap around the hilt makes it the only possible part of the blade to use efficiently. try holding a katana or a bokuto and block an imaginary strike to the head. see what i mean? you don't use the side or the back do you?
Actually, in many Koryu styles you /do/ use the side or the edge. For instance, to work with your cutting edge versus cutting edge example. Someone comes in with a vertical cut to the head, you can move in, and nudge your opponent's sword to the side, away from yourself using the side of the blade. Look at where the blade is, then. Perfectly aligned to striking at your opponent who, with luck, is now entirely exposed. You can strike his upper body wherever you please.
yes yes, but that is an exception. and nudging the ooponent's blade to the side with the side of your blade isn't quite efficient. all this simulating isn't enough, that's why i hate discussing things online
Not terribly efficient? I beg to differ. I've seen it done frequently, and I've done it before. It's a simple, and effective technique, especially if your opponent is getting impetuous. The point is thus; the point of defense in swordsmanship isn't to perform a "linear block", as I call it, but to deflect. Neither the Japanese, or the Europeans, perform linear blocks like they do in the movies. It's always some sort of angle which manipulates the kinetic force of the opponent's cut.
Having a cutting edge facing your opponent does not prove that you use the cutting edge to defend. It just proves that having the cutting edge facing the opponent is better for the techniques used. For instance, if you turned the back of the blade towards your opponent, or the side, you'll have to reorient your grip in order to make counter-attacks or to attack at all. This is detrimental to one's combat efficacy, as it adds time in between one action and another.
i have shattered katanas with my bokuto by hitting them anywhere besides the cutting edge, sure they weren't the very best katanas, but they were reliable, and never even scratched one by brutalising their cutting edges with vicious blows with another katana, so now what? all that talk and i could easily prove you wrong if we were to meet and have a go with a couple of katanas.
Actually I'd say that the complete opposite was true, a Samurai would use the back of his blade to parry, or the side to beat off attacks. The edge of a Katana is very brittle, if it hits something hard and sharp like another sword edge its going to chip or fracture, at the very best you will dull your sword. AFAIK no system of sword combat, European or Japanese, using a cut and thrust sword advises a parry, block, whatever, with the cutting edge. To do so will ruin the sword very quickly.
i have shattered katanas with my bokuto by hitting them anywhere besides the cutting edge, sure they weren't the very best katanas, but they were reliable, and never even scratched one by brutalising their cutting edges with vicious blows with another katana, so now what? all that talk and i could easily prove you wrong if we were to meet and have a go with a couple of katanas.
never been advised on that, but it comes with experience. you block with anyhting else than the edge, you're dead. anyway, back at you: which ones don't?
Well it figures that you haven't actually been taught propper technique. I'd hazard a quess that no Sword masters Japanese or otherwise advise you to block with the cutting edge of your sword. In fact Japanese swordsmanship doesn't have 'blocks' in it, you beat off or deflect attacks if you can't dodge them. I'm afraid you are talking nonsense. If you use the cutting edge of your sword to parry an attack you will ruin your sword, and then you certainly will be dead.
never been advised on that, but it comes with experience. you block with anyhting else than the edge, you're dead. anyway, back at you: which ones don't?
You kind of avoided my question, so I'll respond with my own research in a moment. Here, I'll demand the following; Which Japanese masters suggest defending only with the cutting edge? I'll gather my sources while you answer that.
As well, you sort of voided your own experience. Didn't you just say you had no experience with traditional katana?
for the 1st question: i think i said i didn't know already but whatever. 2nd question: please point out the comment in which i said i didn't have experience with traditional katana. maybe you're referring to the one i said i had destroyed "reliable yet not the very best kind" of katanas, but that doesn't mean i've never handled a traditional. besides i don't think anyone in their right mind would experiment with traditional katanas. but hey, you win, i've grown tired of this, i give up...
Wow... Great techniques and brilliant executions (no pun intended)!!!
MrInfinitifitness 6 days ago
Where are you guys practicing out of? I'd love to get in on this asap!
bmworgii 2 months ago
@bmworgii
These guys are from the group called ARMA but there are a lot of other groups that are also training HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts). I will send you a link to the hema alliance training partner finder map, I hope there is a group near you.
gurkfisk89 2 months ago
Double dragons
Yalashaska 2 months ago
This is what it looks like when you train to use a longsword, not like these other assholes on youtube that give knights a bad name.
1169Timothy 3 months ago
@1169Timothy No, this is what it looks like when you have actually learned the techniques and have them down to a science. Training is slow, awkward, and clumsy, which is why those "other assholes" do it, so they can get better.
Jetman123 2 months ago
@Jetman123 The other Ass holes that I am talking about are not people training but the people fucking around.
1169Timothy 2 months ago
@1169Timothy "Fucking around" is how you learn.
Jetman123 2 months ago
I want one of those swords :'(
neverwatch8thepisode 4 months ago
@neverwatch8thepisode You can buy it. A longsword maybe stands to 150 dollars - 200 dollars + ship.
MrSantiago0789 4 months ago
@Dirkan1234 A zornhau is a diagonal oberhau, often done against another incoming oberhau to simultaneously arrest the incoming strike with the strong of the blade and park the point in the attacker's face. It is then followed with a thrust. Or, it could be just any old diagonal oberhau depending on how you interpret things.
Kunstdesfechtens 5 months ago
"no edges where injured during the making of the movie" :D
Primetarget83 6 months ago
if you are to fight this guy...better not do it if he has a longsword in is hands....i consider it unwise...
Ulver27 6 months ago
@MrMRwhitaker - Given that you are training with people who John Clements had to boot from ARMA for exteremently bad behavior we do not expect for you to hear any thing positive about John Clements. Myself, I have studied under Clements for 11 years and I don't have a single negative thing to say about the man.
ranpleasant 6 months ago
@ranpleasant well this group is better then arma because there is no assclownery
MrMRwhitaker 5 months ago
@ranpleasant Are you part of the ARMA? WHERE ARE THEY?!?!!?!?!??!
Victoryman34 5 months ago
i heard john was a ass clown i joined the meyer Freifechter guild it rocks!
MrMRwhitaker 7 months ago
@MrMRwhitaker : You heard wrong.
Halofreakanoid 5 months ago
soul of sword fighting. I gravitate towards the longsword and wish to read The Archeology of Weapons: Arms and Armour from Prehistory to the Age of Chivalry by Oakeshott. Wonderful video
Eiburya 8 months ago
(cont) But I guarantee, a 5 year old with a sword can be rendered ineffective by an adult. It takes true bodily skill to wield a melee weapon. The sword was one of the first steps in the evolution of human combat and has remained effective to this day. It is a beautiful tool throughout all cultures whether it be curved or straight, single or double-edged, short or long, heavy or light, meant for thrusting, parrying, or cutting, each one has some aspect to attribute to the entire physiology and.
Eiburya 8 months ago 2
Comment removed
Eiburya 8 months ago
One of my favorite videos ever. I'm not advocating the use of weapons at all, but as a true gut feeling, I cannot deny the badassery. Melee weapons are vestiges of the past when Man could still rely on his physicality as a weapon. I feel modern weaponry (guns, explosives, weapon systems, etc;) eliminate the rudimentary reason for avoiding combat that is not necessary, therefore making the raising of arms justifiable. Any 5 year old could pick up a gun and accidentally kill another life...(to be)
Eiburya 8 months ago
@Eiburya It's true that firearms can be used by anyone, but there is still skill in their employment and use. Wars are not fought by computers or won by idiots, as so many people seem to think today. A 5 year old with a rifle will be no more or less effective versus a 5 year old with a sword. Neither know what they're doing and both can kill if they happen to, though dumb luck, score a solid hit and knock someone out of the fight.
Jetman123 7 months ago
@Eiburya One could argue that CQB is as much a martial arts style as Kunst de Fechtens and is just as much about muscle memory, reflexes and smart movement. Of course, melee weapons have something firearms sure don't - you can practice with them on a live partner with proper safety gear! So I can certainly see why you might find them more interesting, as you can do more in the sport arena with a good longsword than you can with a pistol.
And no, there's no denying melee weapons are cool. ;)
Jetman123 7 months ago 5
I own broadsword wasters. It's very difficult to find any info on their technique. Is it similar to longsword technique or would I be training incorrectly?
hybriddefect 8 months ago
@hybriddefect Depends on what you mean by "broadsword". A broadsword is a basket-hilted sword, but a one-handed medieval sword with just a crossguard is called an arming sword. Let us know which one you mean and we can help you better. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 8 months ago
@Kunstdesfechtens I am referring to the one handed medieval sword. I did not know it was called an arming sword. I've been slowly catching on these last couple days, that I get more basket hilt results when I search the term broadsword. ;)
Thanks for the correction. I still have a lot to learn.
hybriddefect 8 months ago
@hybriddefect It's all very interesting though, isn't it?
Eiburya 8 months ago
@Kunstdesfechtens I measured the grip at 5 inches with a 2 inch circular pommel (making it difficult to hold like a longsword) and a 3/4 inch cross guard. I don't know if it's considered a ricasso but the dull part of the blade is 2 inches and the edge portion is about 29 1/2 inches. The blade width itself is almost 2 inches. Looking around (even on the site and shop I found my wasters off of), this particular type of sword gets misnamed a lot, it seems.
hybriddefect 8 months ago
@hybriddefect I'm not an authority on the arming sword. You could use it like a messer for the most part, as detailed in a few manuals. You just have to be careful about techniques that use the nail, which an arming sword doesn't have.
Kunstdesfechtens 8 months ago
0:43 Amazing defensive technique! xD
WhatJustHappendd 8 months ago
It doesn't seem right to label this a sport. It may have escaped your attention but these arts of mars were also called the arts of defense. People don't just take up martial arts to pass time and/or compete, but also to learn how to defend oneself. The thing is unlike the east we have lost our western heritage of martial defense and even though the weapons change I am sure some principles remain valid.
2voles 8 months ago
@2voles It is and it isn't. Historically, it was practiced for sport, self-defence and warfare. They all went hand in hand. Most people today go through their entire lives without ever having a violent encounter, so the SD aspect is really not applicable for most people. These weapons have been obsolete on the battlefield for half a millenium, so warfare is right out. That leaves the "sport" part the most likely _application_ for modern practicioners, if not the most likely motivation. (con't).
Kunstdesfechtens 8 months ago
@2voles (con't) My own motivation isn't sporting at all. I use the sporting aspect to help troubleshoot my interpretations. I enjoy competition, but I'm more concerned with doing the techniques correctly and optimally. I enjoy the "art" of it, but that's just me. I know people who practice PRIMARILY for tournaments and sparring. Their motivation is winning, plain and simple. And that's OK. It's no less valid in my books.
Kunstdesfechtens 8 months ago
The measure is mostly too wide. No one would atack like this. Besides that: nice and prescise sword-handling!
MrHenryMason 9 months ago
ok, nice defense/counterattacking, but what about striking first?
Im not bashing, just curious if there any special techniques to land a strike, to engage with your opponent?
Cos it seems like whoewer engage first=loser:-)
fgh77hgf 9 months ago
@fgh77hgf
Valid questions. The first thing that comes to mind is bit when he's doing something else, like shift guard or taking a step back or something. Or just don't give your opponent the time to do any of these techiques, to always have the initiative. A good example for that is this drill:
watch?v=ByxdpgWS9GU
You can also counter these counters so that you hit with your secound strike.
Yet another thing, your opponent don't know how you will do that first attack.
gurkfisk89 9 months ago 2
@fgh77hgf Striking first is the ideal. That's one use of the "Master Strikes" which are designed to lessen the chance of a single-time counter by closing the angles the counter is likely to take.
Kunstdesfechtens 9 months ago
please wear protector.its horrible.
simplynotfact 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I just cant believe that most people in our western world still believe that knight fighting style was just mere brute force......I mean, I like samurais and katanas and all that eastern stuff, but I just feel pity for those who think that our western heritage is just crap compared to Asian, ALL DUE TO THOSE FANCY MARTIAL ARTS FILMS (NOT ALL OF IT..)....Keep going guys, you're just DAMN AWSOME!
MrAlepedroza 10 months ago
long sword>katana ok start the flame
Dtavs 10 months ago
Could had put some slow motion in this video
Arewington 10 months ago
After seeing this, I am joining my local chapter. It's a very good time to get involved, this sport is growing by leaps and bounds, and there are still some untranslated manuals to study. Who knows to what heights we can take this?
zoopyjoobles 10 months ago 2
@zoopyjoobles What you see in this video is not a sport.
aerik9 10 months ago
@aerik9 Well, it kind of is a sport since none of us will ever do this "for real", no matter how realistic or martial the intent of the training is. I don't have a duel to the death planned any time soon, so all my training is _effectively_ sportive and recreational, even if I don't think of it that way.
Kunstdesfechtens 10 months ago
@Kunstdesfechtens Certainly this Art is recreational and scholarly, but it is not a sport in any sense. ARMA members don't hold or compete in any sort of sporting competition, but rather stick to the purely martial aspects of the Art in their practice. There is a difference between sportive and recreational.
aerik9 10 months ago
@aerik9 ARMA does freeplay. They're not trying to actually kill each other when they do so. That certainly falls under the "play" part of "in earnest and in play". That makes part of their training sportive, even if the end goal is not competition. The sportive side of MA is a perfectly legitimate part of MARTIAL study. Freeplay is basically a sport (competitive within a certain ruleset; i.e. controlled takedowns, and other safety precautions) with the goal of creating a good martial artist.
Kunstdesfechtens 10 months ago
@Kunstdesfechtens I can't say that components of ARMA training methods are not sportive, but what is more important is that the end result is not sport. While freeplay is definitely more "play" than it is "earnest," the intent demonstrated in such practice places it beyond true sport. It is, at best, a half-sport, with its "players" seeking to "win" not by sword-tagging, but by legitimately powerful strikes that would kill/disable just as readily in "earnest" as they do in "play."
aerik9 10 months ago
If that's a long sword, then I don't want a short sword.
NinjaAssassin336 11 months ago
This video shows that the blade is not the only part of the sword.To many people think so today. You must also remember that it is the man that is the true weapon, the sword is only an extension of yourself.
beretta83 11 months ago 3
they remind me of little children play- fighting
TigressofBalance 11 months ago
the attackers cuts seem very wide.
in the zornhau, isnt the attacker supposed to cut in a quick, small arc as to place the point in the defender's face as the attacker finishes his step?
bsapaka 1 year ago
what do you think is better? this or kendo?
xtcarnage15586 1 year ago
@xtcarnage15586 There is no "better". If you want to be a longsword fencer, use longsword techniques. If you want to do well in Kendo matches, become a Kendoka. Since none of us fight for real with swords anymore, do what you find the most fun. As far as "real life' technique goes, the longsword stuff here is better, since that's what it was used for. Kendo is used for a VERY specific sporting ruleset, not for earnest combat with sharps.
Kunstdesfechtens 1 year ago 10
@Kunstdesfechtens Very well put, it is the tastes of the individual and their objectives that matter.
psylinx 1 year ago
@xtcarnage15586 Kendo and indeed the majority of today so-called "martial arts" are usually "combat sports" of gentlemen. There's no intention of killing but more of sparing between civilized gentlemen.
ARMA focuses more on practical and historical martial arts: killing people. Of course you don't get to kill any.
You can watch a few vids of them doing sword fights: they do it fast, brutal and aim to wound the opponent. Other combat sports aim to "score" instead.
ImEternalWanderer 11 months ago
@xtcarnage15586 To demonstrate the last point further, ARMA fights focuses on whether you score a hit anywhere: arms, legs, chest, face, etc ... In a fight with sharps, a hit anywhere may kill you (most of the time soldiers were killed after receive a hit in the legs or arms), eventually. Other combat sports, if you watch closely tend to go for hits that get points, depending on the sport.
ImEternalWanderer 11 months ago
If Either the attacker or defender knew what they were doing it would look a lot different
videoedit69 1 year ago
Love it great stuff boys
Dallasarcher 1 year ago
how could i learn this stuff? im really interested
tuffy464 1 year ago
@tuffy464 Contact the HEMA Alliance, WMA Coalition or ARMA to find study groups near you.
Kunstdesfechtens 1 year ago
0:40 PERFECT!
Stug0 1 year ago
To uderstand this video, you should know, this is just techniques. In fight, this is just ways, how you can kill your enemy without thinking of your move. Just the way how to do that, sparing looks quite diferent, but trust me, it¨s realy great to know this in a sparing.
Tyrhor 1 year ago
balett........ ballerinas gehören vor einen spiegel mit rosa kleid . this are longswords for you? you have many to learn. balerinas.
Berserkertrank 1 year ago
@Berserkertrank You're from SCA, right? Real fighting is not bashing each other with rattan sticks.
Ranziel1 1 year ago 3
Wearing no protections makes it pretty dangerous for both players.
duran3d 1 year ago
@duran3d they aren't players. this isn't a game. All fighting arts are dangerous. (remmber that when you put your kids in to karate) they both knoiw what they are doing. that takes away much of the danger of doing something stupid. even in full plate armour they would be fully safe. think of it this way you are a can of food and they have a canopner. it doesn't matter what you have on they will get to you if they wanted to.
kokofan50 1 year ago
What I don't get about this sort of video, no matter how fancy a pirouette or riposte can be, is they aren't taking into the account the OTHER fighter's move after he's blocked or been blocked.
It's all well showing what you can do if someone attacks you with a sword and holds that position while you stab them in the face but two people of equal skill wouldn't fight like that.
ChainsawGutsFuck 1 year ago
@ChainsawGutsFuck There are some freeplay videos that show just that: /watch?v=6bZWuNd-tqY and here's one that shows the back and forth of various counters: /watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA
Kunstdesfechtens 1 year ago
@ChainsawGutsFuck You have a point, and you're wrong. But both in equal measure. You are right, two men of experience fighting would look drastically different. However, versus an inexperienced fighter, these techniques may be all that's needed to win. I am reading the Ringneck/Liechtenauer... manual... again. What'll happen (sometimes) is a strike like one in the video, followed by the counter. (The kill in this video) Following that is the counter to that, and so on. ...
MegaGlueman 1 year ago
@ChainsawGutsFuck ... Both swordsmen will continue until fatigue and physical fitness, or mental power, or skill render one the victor. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, these videos don't show all. But, they ddo show if this, then that. I believe the only way you can truly learn is to join ARMA, or read the work of the old masters yourself, find a partner, and train.
MegaGlueman 1 year ago
When fighting with European broadswords, using more than just your sword is surely a requirement for victory
EdikShepherd 1 year ago 3
@xsnowxdemonx At the most core level, swords all work the same way, You either push/stab with a point or you have to pull/draw the blade across. Human beings all have the same basic shape. There's only so many ways we can move with a sword and have everything work. Similarities are going to happen, and even when someone "takes" from another style, it can't stay the same because a different person is doing it with a different form. It'll change and isn't "from" anymore.
SavageInsight 1 year ago
where can i learn more explaining short edge and long edge. I have failed to come up with much on google searches
Great stuff
Emanusmell 1 year ago
@Emanusmell Long edge is the edge that faces the same way as your knuckles. Short edge is the edge that faces your wrist. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 1 year ago
Hardcore
xtcarnage15586 1 year ago
0:36 WTHF !!!
Pogojunky 1 year ago
@xsnowxdemonx go figure >.> multiple cultures converging towards the same/similar techniques.. you know, to ME that doesn't make sense.. I mean why would they converge towards the Effective techniques? :O
*sarcasm*
fuzzybunie 1 year ago 2
Dude you are good with a longsword cheers:)
jettarulz 1 year ago
This has nothing to do with kendo, it's just fencing.
If the samourai (who never fought any any real war apart from quarreling between themselves) discovered martial techniques with the sword,then the european knight (who were real warriors and not duellists) discovered these techniques too.
There are some very intteresting fencing books from these period but they are not well known to the mass compared to the overrated kendo.
solwen 1 year ago
@solwen: So I bet you know what a true/real warrior is? What is that? Tell me please :/.
Khornedevotee 1 year ago
@Khornedevotee
I will take the exemple of the euro and arab knights: They fought hundreds of massive scale wars with very different ennemies (mongols, Timurids, turks, amongst themselves etc) and won. Their aim was to kill and destroy the opposing army not honor or wathever else. They constantly improved their techniques and equipment to be more efficient killing machines and to match their new ennemies. This is a "real" warrior. kendo is an art, not an effective way to kill
solwen 1 year ago 2
@solwen: Let's see if I got it right here then: A real warrior is a man/woman who wants to improve his/her tecniques so that the warrior can match their enemies and maybe overpower them :). But a manslaughterer is not a real warrior at all, which I think you're refering to as well what a true warrior isn't (manslaughterer that is) :). Ty then m8 for the info. But correct me if I was wrong in any way or so :/.
Khornedevotee 1 year ago
@Khornedevotee
A warrior will use/do all he can to defeat his ennemies. He will evolve and use the most effective technique to kill. Let's compare him to a factory: Cold, not always beautiful but effective at what it does.
For a duellist/kendo/samurai the way you fight is more important than the effectiveness of your techniques. Let's compare him to a craftman: Artistic and beautiful but ineffective.
For a martial art like fencing whose aim is to kill, the first one (warrior) is preferable imho
solwen 1 year ago 3
@solwen: Ok is all I believe I can say XD. But yeah, I would also prefer the first one(warrior) which I believe you said was the most effective in combat :/.
Khornedevotee 1 year ago
@solwen: Or did I catch it wrong here now?! :/ Now it all got complicated again.
Khornedevotee 1 year ago
@Khornedevotee
you got it right and as a devotee of Khorne i was sure you would preffer the most effective way to kill :D
solwen 1 year ago
@solwen: Ah, so you know of warhammer 40k too, huh?! Good that most people know where my name originates from :D. Yes, I prefer melee I use to fight with whatever I think a sword(or mace) could be in my mind such as a stick or something like that hehe and my sisters and I use to fight(carefully) so we don't hit our fingers. It is funny indeed. Ty for the respond m8.
Khornedevotee 1 year ago
Comment removed
CrankyBadger 1 year ago
I want to see one of you guys against a samurai, i love longswords and katana's, and have respect for both, but i think longswords and renaissance martial arts are underrated
Eso1 1 year ago
This is amazing. You guys look like the illustrations from the famous 16th century german illustrated text, whose name I cannot recall. It is one of the only written sources for the art of the longsword.
lebarosky 1 year ago
@lebarosky
Hans Talhoffer?
colinkadink 1 year ago
@colinkadink : yes that is the one i had in mind. but i had the century wrong. wikipedia says 1460s. also you might check out the Book of the Sword by Richard Francis Burton, reputed to be the best swordsman of the Victorian era and one of the first white men to go to Mecca on the haj.
lebarosky 1 year ago
Awesome!!!!! Looks so much fan to practice
mzambo666 1 year ago
Impressive! the real interpretation of Zwerchau: preventing, intercepting and moving out of the opponent's line! I guess you didn't harm edges cos you rotated blades at the impact..
ezekijel9 1 year ago
I'll remember this the next time I have to have a swordfight.
TehSamurai 2 years ago
I seriously wish there was some place around here where I could study European swordsmanship. No one here seems to be interested on that, and I can only find kenjutsu dojos nearby. It really looks fascinating and I am very enthusiastic about such matters. It's really a shame that this sort of martial art is not nearly as popular as the Asian ones.
Folhasful 2 years ago
Folhasful you have 100 % right. But the Western Martial Arts would be in the top again....
megasayajinsongoku99 2 years ago
This is awesome and very educational to see. All I have seen are drawings from history books of these but that is not quite the same as seeing real people performing the moves. Bravo!
amuletts 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
those padded long swords look like dildos.
TheGreenArrow100 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
You should always wear headgear when "fencing" with armas clowns because they take pride in hurting their training partners. You guys should buy matching wigs so your socks don't look so nisch nisch.
Lafaugere 2 years ago
obvious troll is obvious. gtfo youtube
Evassassin 2 years ago 27
@Evassassin This person is actually a serious swordfighting instructor. Please be more analytical and less general once you watch four seconds of a video and make a judgment. Also, get off 4faggotry. That *chan sucks ass, "redundant adjective is redundant" memes are old and common. Stop spouting memes in public.
slik204 1 year ago
@Lafaugere ARMA actually has an extremely good safety record. It is absolutely silly to suggest that ARMA members take pride in hurting each other.
ranpleasant 2 years ago 17
We do have fencing Masks thank you very much. So far no one that I herd ever got hurt, they teach you control with contempt...
Also the socks are like that because thats how they trained historically. This is to show the student or students which side is their left & their rite when looking at them...
255Knights 2 years ago 2
I always wear headgear even when I'm just practicing. I don't want to lose an eye.
Ieatbabyseals 2 years ago
Interesting.
Bayushi1975 2 years ago
i could own this guy..lol j/k where can i get a sword like that and do this kind of stuff
overturned50 2 years ago
Look in your area for "Historical European Martial Arts", "Western Martial Arts", or "Historical European Swordsmanship". If you can't find anything, I can help you locate a group.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago 2
alright man thanks alot ill definitely do some research and look in to it
overturned50 2 years ago
Regarding the wide stances, I think the issue is camera related. Simply placing a foot a few inches off center from the other makes a significant difference, not to mention where your weight is directed. Also, this /is/ a demonstration, and certain things may be exaggerated so the MA-familiar viewer can get a better idea of the subtleties (usually fundamentals) at play .
Regarding defense, I think it's a scientifically verifiable fact that head on collisions = max damage to both parties
KuLaydMahn 2 years ago
Very, very impressive. Just don't hurt each other guys!
BaronWVS 2 years ago
interesting, dont have any longsword experience really, but is it just me or are the basic stance really wide and easily pushed over at the wrong angle? and that angle is consistenly exposed to the opponent?, i dont know, this is from a kendo background
Stapo10011 2 years ago 2
The stance used in longsword is very different from Kendo. It has to be wide since one has to be able to enter grappling, and lowering your centre of gravity and widening the stance helps that. It doesn't have to be THAT wide, but it's not written in stone. I prefer a more "face on" stance, but still at least shoulder width apart. Kendoka don't have to worry about being dumped on their butt with a hip throw, hence the more upright, feet closer together stance.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago 6
a fair enough point, might try longsword fighting one day...although with kendo, though we dont have grappling, you do get thrown on your ass in the higher ranked sparring, in fact, i won a tournament with a well placed leg sweep
Stapo10011 2 years ago
I think some Longsword would certainly improve a kendoka's understanding of swordsmanship. Some take up iado to get an idea of the mechanics of steel, but I think longsword would be even better, since you get steel PLUS sparring. It's certainly a lot of fun, and learning new ways to fight is always a good idea. Should you get the urge, drop me a line and I'll see if I can find a group near you.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago 3
Wait, I didn't even know that was legal in Kendo! Of course, it's been years since I've even picked up Shinai, but still... a leg sweep?
Holy crap.
imorriso1 2 years ago
haha, yeah, its a technique only for adults or higher ups, which is why im surprised when im allowed to use it agains them...(im 18 and not very high ranked) anyway, we do kan shin ryu which is a pre ww2 style and thus would have alot of 'illegal' moves in it, like leg strikes etc
Stapo10011 2 years ago
Hah! That explains that. I'm pretty much positive that the type of Kendo I was doing was the modern, standardized version.
It's been a while, so I figured I'd check. I gave up on Kendo a while back due to time constraints, and have only found the time to practise Taekwondo.
imorriso1 2 years ago
There are only so many ways to kill human with a sharpened stick. Of course there are similarities, martial arts is one of the things that all nations and races have in common.
Ranziel1 2 years ago 2
0:21 is known as Hengen, followed by a cut with the short edge known as a Schiller. It is not from Kendo, though there are resemblances between various kinds of swordsmanship.
Zwerchhau 2 years ago 17
0:12 looks like sakui nage from judo
MMAfighter70 2 years ago
Very dynamic!
yannoche 2 years ago
dammit i'm lost, back to stage 0
i say only the cutting edge is good for defense and offense, and the side and back are last resort, ok?
you guys say the exact opposite right?
i only say what i say because i've seen what happens when one follows what you guys say
alright gentlemen. your turn
lORDELO2 2 years ago
EDIT:
dammit i'm lost, back to stage 0
i say only the cutting edge is good for defense and offense, and the side and back are last resort, ok?
you guys say that the side and back can be used for defense quite effectively, and that the cutting edge is too brittle and therefore not very good for defensive maneuvers
i only say what i say because i've seen what happens when one follows what you guys say
alright gentlemen. your turn
lORDELO2 2 years ago
Sounds like the swords you used were not made correctly.
If the swords you used to test the striking were "real", as in historical and accurate, they would cost thousands of dollars. Did your sensei really allow you to shatter swords that cost thousands of dollars?
And: The Samurai believed an educated warrior is a better warrior. You would do well to do some scientific research on these matters.
Pressure = Force / Area
More pressure, more damage. More area, less damage.
tiamat9989 2 years ago
you mean to say swords made these days aren't real? i remember mentioning that we used cheness katanas, and cheness cutlery seems to be a well experienced company in the making of any kind of blade... about the scientific research... if science only goes as far as P = F / A to you, i should tell you it's much more complicated than that. you should also consider microstructure of the steel the katana is made from, grain size, components percentage, and so on
lORDELO2 2 years ago
That's a very good point.
How much do katanas flex when they receive impact on the flats? Longswords appear to be quite springy, partially because the blades are symmetrical on either side. Katanas on the other hand have one edge and would naturally behave differently.
tiamat9989 2 years ago
well on the side of any blade, longswird or katana, the sections of the structural basis of the steel that withstand stress are the same. on the cutting edge though there's only a few atoms, so one has to start talkiing about macrostructure. the katana has soft steel on the back of the blade which significantly reduces the impact received by the harder steel of the cutting edge. also the curved shape allows a growing area (well, string, of atoms...) of contact uppon impact
lORDELO2 2 years ago
but for something as straightforward as "let's hit this katana with that other one and see what happens" and what happens is the cutting edge will take more punishment without visible damage than the side or back of the blade, does one really have to go into theory after witnessing experimental results?
lORDELO2 2 years ago
Hmm, it looks like katana's structure is significantly different from a longsword. In the case of longswords, the same "let's hit this longsword with that other one" test yielded opposite results. The edges were badly damaged while the flats were just fine, maybe just because the longsword has better flex?
There's also a mythbusters episode about this, but of course...it's mythbusters, not a good scientific test. =P
I'll look into this further. Thanks!
tiamat9989 2 years ago
Comment removed
mrbeast85 2 years ago
You keep saying this yet all of the sources I have read contradict this. I've even seen footage of a Japanese Kenjitsu master instructing his students to use the BACK of the blade; watch this video from 8:24
watch?v=s4yaQDwxoaE&feature=re lated
Also as Caliburnis stated a while back this isn't just 'theory' its the combined experience of many many others passed on as knowledge.
mrbeast85 2 years ago
i'll quote the translation for you:
"when you block your opponent you should always use the back of the sword, because that's the hardest part..."
if there's anyhting we've agreed on, it's that the cutting edge is the hardest part of a katana, so i dunno if this "master" knows what he's talking about. and he didn't block either, he just used the back to hit the side of the other guy's bokuto... that's ok, nothing wrong there, but if he were to block... with real katanas at play...
lORDELO2 2 years ago
Lost in translation I think anyway, the point is that you don't use the edge of your sword for anything other than striking your oponent. Another point that Caliburnis and I have made is that there are no 'blocks' in Japanese or Medieval fencing. You don't seem to grasp the concept of defending with your blade by deflecting or beating off an attack without that manouver being a linear 'block'.
mrbeast85 2 years ago
And therein, I think, lies the secret.
In longsword and I imagine katana as well, rigid parries are to be avoided period.
I just posted a video from the ARMA website on my page with some longsword edge contact tests.
tiamat9989 2 years ago
of course i can "grasp the concept" of defending (it's not a concept by the way... there's no conceptual knowledge about defending with a sword...) that's why i noticed that old man in the vid you directed me to wasn't even blocking anyway. after all this i still think you guys should worry more about doing than talking or stuff that other people, that you consider to be masters, say
lORDELO2 2 years ago
I know the guy wasn't 'blocking', maybe you are missing the part where I said that there were no 'blocks'. He was defending using the back of the blade by beating off an oponents attack. BTW the 'old man' is Risuke Otake and hes the head of one of Japan's oldest kenjutsu schools.
mrbeast85 2 years ago
My guess is their translator probably doesn't know anything about Japanese fencing, and as the Sensei was explaining how the back is the best part for blocking, the translator did the best he could and translated as "hardest" when perhaps the Sensei was saying something like "strongest, most resistant, or most resilient" which was simply translated as "hardest" in English. Technical subjects are particularly difficult for translators to render properly from one language to another.
Zwerchhau 2 years ago 9
i train under Tomita Sensei. he never did TELL me (as in, out loud) how to block, parry or anything defense related, but always made me realise, in bokken practice, that the back and side of the blade are actually good targets if you'd want to destroy your opponent's blade, or at least make it fly off his hands, so i don't really use the back or the side anymore, the less i became to use them, the more effectively i defended and counter attacked.
lORDELO2 2 years ago
So you study Aikido and not Kenjutsu?
mrbeast85 2 years ago
both
i started with aikido and iaido, about 4 years ago, quit iaido and started with kenjustu, still training aikido though
lORDELO2 2 years ago
looks a lot like kenjustu to be honest. i guess that both arts came to the same natural conclusions. two human beings fighting with sharpened "sticks" made out of metal won't allow many differences, regardless the origin of the art
lORDELO2 2 years ago 3
There are some differences, but of course sword arts must share similarities since one only keeps what works. The German concept of "winding" is rare (but not unknown) in Kenjutsu. There is less blade to blade contact as well, since the Katana cannot withstand the same stresses.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
the katana can and will withstand any number of blows, with any force, as long as they are received by the cutting edge of the blade, instead of the side or back. but of course, even great masters make mistakes, so blocking fierce blows isn't always a good idea if you can't do so using the cutting edge. if you block with the side of the blade... you're dead. THAT'S why there isn't much blade to blade contact in kenjutsu, or pretty much any japanese sword martial art.
lORDELO2 2 years ago
Funny, I've done some Koryu kenjutsu, and many deflections were done with the FLAT of the blade, or with the edge to teki's flat. Mind you, different ryuha do things differently.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
I would have thought that avoiding contact with the cutting edge since it would be the hardest, and therefore most brittle part of the sword. And the back of the sword being of softer steel more apt for parying since it would not chip just dent
EGCblackknight 2 years ago
the back of the katana is made softer precisely because the cutting edge is hard and brittle. as a result, all blows blocked with the cutting edge have their force absorbed by the back, and so neither does the cutting edge shatter, or the back gets cut by another blade's edge. if you block with the back it's no use if the steel is soft, it'll get cut like butter, it won't absorb anything. and the side is pretty much like glass. only the cutting edge is good for striking and blocking
lORDELO2 2 years ago
That actually wouldn't eliminate all the damage. The back edge helps with overall survivability, but blocking linearly will have all of the force hit the blade, and then fracture the cutting edge.
As well, a cut to the back of the blade is not going to cut it like butter. Steel does not go through steel like that using human strength. The general principle revolves around deflection, not 'absorbing' the blows.
Caliburnis 2 years ago
besides, you'll notice that in kenjutsu, in defensive positions, they always point the cutting edge to the opponent's cutting edge, never the back, nor the side. AND the way the hands wrap around the hilt makes it the only possible part of the blade to use efficiently. try holding a katana or a bokuto and block an imaginary strike to the head. see what i mean? you don't use the side or the back do you?
lORDELO2 2 years ago
Actually, in many Koryu styles you /do/ use the side or the edge. For instance, to work with your cutting edge versus cutting edge example. Someone comes in with a vertical cut to the head, you can move in, and nudge your opponent's sword to the side, away from yourself using the side of the blade. Look at where the blade is, then. Perfectly aligned to striking at your opponent who, with luck, is now entirely exposed. You can strike his upper body wherever you please.
Caliburnis 2 years ago
yes yes, but that is an exception. and nudging the ooponent's blade to the side with the side of your blade isn't quite efficient. all this simulating isn't enough, that's why i hate discussing things online
lORDELO2 2 years ago
Not terribly efficient? I beg to differ. I've seen it done frequently, and I've done it before. It's a simple, and effective technique, especially if your opponent is getting impetuous. The point is thus; the point of defense in swordsmanship isn't to perform a "linear block", as I call it, but to deflect. Neither the Japanese, or the Europeans, perform linear blocks like they do in the movies. It's always some sort of angle which manipulates the kinetic force of the opponent's cut.
Caliburnis 2 years ago
Having a cutting edge facing your opponent does not prove that you use the cutting edge to defend. It just proves that having the cutting edge facing the opponent is better for the techniques used. For instance, if you turned the back of the blade towards your opponent, or the side, you'll have to reorient your grip in order to make counter-attacks or to attack at all. This is detrimental to one's combat efficacy, as it adds time in between one action and another.
Caliburnis 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
i have shattered katanas with my bokuto by hitting them anywhere besides the cutting edge, sure they weren't the very best katanas, but they were reliable, and never even scratched one by brutalising their cutting edges with vicious blows with another katana, so now what? all that talk and i could easily prove you wrong if we were to meet and have a go with a couple of katanas.
lORDELO2 2 years ago
Actually I'd say that the complete opposite was true, a Samurai would use the back of his blade to parry, or the side to beat off attacks. The edge of a Katana is very brittle, if it hits something hard and sharp like another sword edge its going to chip or fracture, at the very best you will dull your sword. AFAIK no system of sword combat, European or Japanese, using a cut and thrust sword advises a parry, block, whatever, with the cutting edge. To do so will ruin the sword very quickly.
mrbeast85 2 years ago
i have shattered katanas with my bokuto by hitting them anywhere besides the cutting edge, sure they weren't the very best katanas, but they were reliable, and never even scratched one by brutalising their cutting edges with vicious blows with another katana, so now what? all that talk and i could easily prove you wrong if we were to meet and have a go with a couple of katanas.
lORDELO2 2 years ago
So which Japanese sword masters advise you to block with the edge?
mrbeast85 2 years ago
never been advised on that, but it comes with experience. you block with anyhting else than the edge, you're dead. anyway, back at you: which ones don't?
lORDELO2 2 years ago
Well it figures that you haven't actually been taught propper technique. I'd hazard a quess that no Sword masters Japanese or otherwise advise you to block with the cutting edge of your sword. In fact Japanese swordsmanship doesn't have 'blocks' in it, you beat off or deflect attacks if you can't dodge them. I'm afraid you are talking nonsense. If you use the cutting edge of your sword to parry an attack you will ruin your sword, and then you certainly will be dead.
mrbeast85 2 years ago
They also probably weren't traditionally made. The Differential Hardening process is what makes the edge so fragile.
As well, I do have to agree with mrbeast's sentiment. Precisely which Japanese sword masters advise you to block with the edge?
Caliburnis 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
never been advised on that, but it comes with experience. you block with anyhting else than the edge, you're dead. anyway, back at you: which ones don't?
lORDELO2 2 years ago
You kind of avoided my question, so I'll respond with my own research in a moment. Here, I'll demand the following; Which Japanese masters suggest defending only with the cutting edge? I'll gather my sources while you answer that.
As well, you sort of voided your own experience. Didn't you just say you had no experience with traditional katana?
Caliburnis 2 years ago
for the 1st question: i think i said i didn't know already but whatever. 2nd question: please point out the comment in which i said i didn't have experience with traditional katana. maybe you're referring to the one i said i had destroyed "reliable yet not the very best kind" of katanas, but that doesn't mean i've never handled a traditional. besides i don't think anyone in their right mind would experiment with traditional katanas. but hey, you win, i've grown tired of this, i give up...
lORDELO2 2 years ago
So seems like you were talking rubbish afteral then.......;-)
mrbeast85 2 years ago