Hey great video but i have some comments. 1st Most English solders did not fire there bess but 3 times a year during peace time. 2nd as for accrucy it would be about 50 percent at 3 rounds a min. 3rd depending on size of the man you are shooting at while moveing toward you and firing. With battle sounds they may have hit there target at most 30 percent of the time. That is why English soldier depended on his Bayonet. Fire prime and load fire prime load fire load fix bayonets charge bayonets
@berealiam Sure - we are not claiming this would be the accuracy in battle. Clearly it was not. The gun itself seems relatively accurate with a period load, so other factors must be at play otherwise whole armies would be annihilated on Napoleonic battle fields (and they were not).
@berealiam Sure - we are not claiming this would be the accuracy in battle. Clearly it was not. The gun itself seems relatively accurate with a period load, so other factors must be at play otherwise whole armies would be annihilated on Napoleonic battle fields (and they were not).
@cdsadler That is true I love the brown bess one of the best weapons and workhorse for colonization during the period. I know the purpose at that time as was in the revolution was to hold the field as the victor compared to the cost of men and supplies. This is a good video on demostrating the weapons use. Most people must just be aware of factors a soldier faced when he had to use and fire in volly formation during a battle and factors that effect it.
@45atMYside I do not recall a reference to buck and ball as a British Napoleonic Wars load but have not looked for it specifically. Some regiments occasionally used two balls.
Someone else might know a reference to British buck and ball. Or a reason it was not used.
@TheRoboteer This is true and it would also occur for right handed soldiers. W/e handed they were though, most soldiers would turn their head right before firing as to not hurt their eyes
actually.. would the reason for the massive difference in rested firing, and firng in line is the recoil? ok i admit sharpe isnta history book, but it appears a semi common idea was to aim slightly low to prevent the recoil from causing the bullets to go too high i.e aiming at the pelvis region causing the muskets to instead hit the bellies and waistsof the enemy line is there anything to that assertion of recoil?
@elgostine In this test, we were pointing the guns at the white square on the black plastic. We did not practice before hand apart from Peter's 10 rounds. The the shot pattern does not seem to be especially high - mainly to the right for some reason.
but the reason for keeping men in ranks was partly discipline reasons since it was the more intelligent men that became skirmishers, and i think the average redcoat was considered by officers to be a uncouth rougue who should be kept in line. and secondly alloweed soldiers to be less of a tempting target for cavalry, and allowed more massed fire skirmishers cant easily form square. and are much more vulnerable to horsemen.
@elgostine The assessment of officer-soldier qualities is probably a bit harsh.
The main reasons for being in line are, according to the manuals of the time, defence from cavalry (as you note), the need for a high density single volley to pave the way for a bayonet charge, and to provide the weight of numbers to make the charge a success.
good god 160 grains, even for a brown bess thats alot, maximum i put through mine, is about 120, but i tend to stick at about 90, and that hits a man sized target at 75 yards
@maddymann8 We are an historical re-enactment group researching what actually happened on a Napoleonic battlefield. 160 grains, 0.08 windage etc replicates the standards of the day.
If I was target shooting today with a 0.725 cloth patched ball, I'd use a load similar to what you suggest.
@maddymann8 Period powder was not of the same quality as today. The grainage used then was higher than today but the power behind the two are approximately equivalent
@LordTharrion Would much appreciate a reference to this - we were not able to locate comments on British powder from around 1810-15. Several references to poor powder quality in the US. But by 1810 the British were apparently producing a quality mix - but no references to quantify it.
@cdsadler I have not been able to find any references (of yet) as to the quantifiable energy produced by period gunpowder (except one non-publication reference stating approximately 9 Foot-pounds as compaired to 13 post war). However, nearly ever reference I have come accross which gives the historical powder charge size has a disclaimer noting the diferential between historical and modern "black" gunpowder quality and consistant quality.
@LordTharrion Thanks - please let us know if you have more success. We would expect some reference to powder quality and load as the various percussion rifles were introduced in the 1840-60s. Not found anything yet but someone may know the answer.
@cdsadler "The British Gunner" by J. Morton Spearman. The first edition appeared in 1828 and contained the following information about powder charges for flintlocks: Service charge: 6 drams (165 grains)
The service charges given in this table, although established by authority, are too great, and might be reduced by about one-fourth. They have not been altered since 1775, while the strength of the powder has been increased in nearly a two-fold ratio since that period."
@camerl2009 Research shows Bess bores were more like .76 in production versions, and ball used was about 0.68. A 0.75 bore and 0.67 ball replicates that windage. I presume the ball size was chosen with ease of loading a fouled gun in mind but have no references stating that.
Larger balls - 0.715 and 0.725 used today are presumably because shooters today are looking for accuracy, and have plenty of time on a range to reload.
I think that Volley-Firing was more used for the reasons of Psychology and the Battlefield-Circumstances, then pure Inaccuracy of the Musket. With Soldiers en-masse on the Battlefield, even a few Volleys choke the Battlefield in Smoke. Your Tests show exactly what I have been saying for years, that the Musket is not that bad, and that Battlefield-Circumstances do the Trick.
@LutzDerLurch Agreed - as we say in the notes with the clip, shock and charge was the likely the best plan. And officers at the time often comment that firing disorders the line and cohesion after several rounds, and it was hard to get the troops to respond to new orders. So circumstances did not allow the good qualities of the Brown Bess to be exploited fully. Well, that is one view anyway.
@cdsadler Well, warfare is always a complex Matter. I have no doubts that a M16 Rifle beats the BB in all disciplines, but given that in the Vietnam Wars an average of several 100.000 rounds had to be fired to inflict a casualty, the 2-5% effectiveness of the muskets are not soo bad after all. Warfare is far more than simply weapons. However, I prefer Peace and Coexistence over War and Violence. :)
@cdsadler If I may also add, as a English civil war re-enactor, the accuracy of a period smoothbore was about 4%. This is found to be quite plausible as records of a particular battle showed that two groups of musketeers about 500 a side were engaged in a fire fight for about 8 hours, after which one side reported casualties at about 80 men. So 8 men per hour is pretty inaccurate. I am surprised you actually hit the target.
@Professsor Lot of issues in play in a battle. In Napoleonic engagements, eye witnesses often reported engagement ranges as far shorter than was actually the case. In a couple of engagements where ranges were actually 50-80 yards, casualties were around 50% eg for a regt at Albuera (not the whole battle).
@cdsadler ECW is a good period indeed. I do fancy giving Napoleonics a try, but the kit is so expensive. Fancied trying Rifles but after watching a battle most of the British were comprised of 3 squadrons of rifles and 1 of foot. So, if I did do it, I would probably be a redcoat. but I would like to own a Baker and go to a range or hunting with it. Will you be doing any more videos?
What was the procedure at the time for a flash in the pan misfire. Where would they get the extra powder to try it again, crack open another charge? I know i have heard of muskets with 7 or 8 charges being found in them on the battlefield.
Thats some imressive accuracy, there did seem to be a pull to the right. You mention in the notes that fire by volley was reserved for close range to combine it with a bayonet charge. I personally think it had to do with penetration of the target, at close range your putting a lot more kinetic energy into the target, the protection of being in the second rank might not be as great as it would be at long range. That might be an idea for a future test.
This test demonstrates why the bow & arrow were replaced by the Musket, it wasn't just because the musket could shoot through plate armour as many longbow fans want you to believe, but because they could lay down more accurate directly aimed fire as-well.
Firing at 100+ meters with a bow & arrow you have to use plunging fire (i.e. indirect fire), vastly decreasing accuracy. Whilst a Musket can be aimed directly at up to 200 meters away (i.e. direct fire), providing much better accuracy.
Good video guys. Tells a nice story. Given this result commanders could have tried a volley at 130 yards - load - fix bayonets - volley - charge. Training and live fire practice may be the answer.
I didn't know we could fire flintlocks in Australia, let alone fire an M4A1.
mathsprofessional 1 month ago
Hey great video but i have some comments. 1st Most English solders did not fire there bess but 3 times a year during peace time. 2nd as for accrucy it would be about 50 percent at 3 rounds a min. 3rd depending on size of the man you are shooting at while moveing toward you and firing. With battle sounds they may have hit there target at most 30 percent of the time. That is why English soldier depended on his Bayonet. Fire prime and load fire prime load fire load fix bayonets charge bayonets
berealiam 4 months ago
@berealiam Sure - we are not claiming this would be the accuracy in battle. Clearly it was not. The gun itself seems relatively accurate with a period load, so other factors must be at play otherwise whole armies would be annihilated on Napoleonic battle fields (and they were not).
cdsadler 2 months ago
@berealiam Sure - we are not claiming this would be the accuracy in battle. Clearly it was not. The gun itself seems relatively accurate with a period load, so other factors must be at play otherwise whole armies would be annihilated on Napoleonic battle fields (and they were not).
cdsadler 2 months ago
@cdsadler That is true I love the brown bess one of the best weapons and workhorse for colonization during the period. I know the purpose at that time as was in the revolution was to hold the field as the victor compared to the cost of men and supplies. This is a good video on demostrating the weapons use. Most people must just be aware of factors a soldier faced when he had to use and fire in volly formation during a battle and factors that effect it.
berealiam 2 months ago
.67 is much too small thats why the accuracy was poor
lukie117 4 months ago
@45atMYside I do not recall a reference to buck and ball as a British Napoleonic Wars load but have not looked for it specifically. Some regiments occasionally used two balls.
Someone else might know a reference to British buck and ball. Or a reason it was not used.
cdsadler 5 months ago
is it true that if you used this gun and you were left handed the flash went off in your face?
TheRoboteer 5 months ago
@TheRoboteer It is not true - plenty of modern left handers fire flintlocks with right hand locks.
But it is immaterial to military guns as everyone had to fire right handed - no exceptions.
cdsadler 5 months ago
@TheRoboteer It is not true - plenty of modern left handers fire flintlocks with right hand locks.
But it is immaterial to military guns as everyone had to fire right handed - no exceptions.
cdsadler 5 months ago
@TheRoboteer This is true and it would also occur for right handed soldiers. W/e handed they were though, most soldiers would turn their head right before firing as to not hurt their eyes
AlvinSpitoon 5 months ago
@TheRoboteer Are these exact models? (They don't have rifling?)
mrfunds122 4 months ago
@mrfunds122 They are both Pedersoli reproductions - smoothbore of course.
cdsadler 4 months ago
@cdsadler That's great, I never shot a smoothbore, which is why I am so curious of how it affects the accuracy. Great video by the way.
mrfunds122 4 months ago
actually.. would the reason for the massive difference in rested firing, and firng in line is the recoil? ok i admit sharpe isnta history book, but it appears a semi common idea was to aim slightly low to prevent the recoil from causing the bullets to go too high i.e aiming at the pelvis region causing the muskets to instead hit the bellies and waistsof the enemy line is there anything to that assertion of recoil?
elgostine 6 months ago
@elgostine In this test, we were pointing the guns at the white square on the black plastic. We did not practice before hand apart from Peter's 10 rounds. The the shot pattern does not seem to be especially high - mainly to the right for some reason.
cdsadler 5 months ago
im not sure about the short range,
but the reason for keeping men in ranks was partly discipline reasons since it was the more intelligent men that became skirmishers, and i think the average redcoat was considered by officers to be a uncouth rougue who should be kept in line. and secondly alloweed soldiers to be less of a tempting target for cavalry, and allowed more massed fire skirmishers cant easily form square. and are much more vulnerable to horsemen.
elgostine 6 months ago
@elgostine The assessment of officer-soldier qualities is probably a bit harsh.
The main reasons for being in line are, according to the manuals of the time, defence from cavalry (as you note), the need for a high density single volley to pave the way for a bayonet charge, and to provide the weight of numbers to make the charge a success.
cdsadler 5 months ago
Where do you fellas get your bess's from? Are they italian or indian repros?
griebz 7 months ago
@griebz Both in this test are Pedersoli.
cdsadler 6 months ago
does it have any form of iron sights or is it a point and fire gun
badcoairsoft11 7 months ago
@badcoairsoft11 Try wikipedia
cdsadler 7 months ago
good god 160 grains, even for a brown bess thats alot, maximum i put through mine, is about 120, but i tend to stick at about 90, and that hits a man sized target at 75 yards
maddymann8 9 months ago
@maddymann8 We are an historical re-enactment group researching what actually happened on a Napoleonic battlefield. 160 grains, 0.08 windage etc replicates the standards of the day.
If I was target shooting today with a 0.725 cloth patched ball, I'd use a load similar to what you suggest.
cdsadler 9 months ago
@maddymann8 Period powder was not of the same quality as today. The grainage used then was higher than today but the power behind the two are approximately equivalent
LordTharrion 9 months ago
@LordTharrion Would much appreciate a reference to this - we were not able to locate comments on British powder from around 1810-15. Several references to poor powder quality in the US. But by 1810 the British were apparently producing a quality mix - but no references to quantify it.
cdsadler 8 months ago
@cdsadler I have not been able to find any references (of yet) as to the quantifiable energy produced by period gunpowder (except one non-publication reference stating approximately 9 Foot-pounds as compaired to 13 post war). However, nearly ever reference I have come accross which gives the historical powder charge size has a disclaimer noting the diferential between historical and modern "black" gunpowder quality and consistant quality.
LordTharrion 8 months ago
@LordTharrion Thanks - please let us know if you have more success. We would expect some reference to powder quality and load as the various percussion rifles were introduced in the 1840-60s. Not found anything yet but someone may know the answer.
cdsadler 8 months ago
@cdsadler "The British Gunner" by J. Morton Spearman. The first edition appeared in 1828 and contained the following information about powder charges for flintlocks: Service charge: 6 drams (165 grains)
The service charges given in this table, although established by authority, are too great, and might be reduced by about one-fourth. They have not been altered since 1775, while the strength of the powder has been increased in nearly a two-fold ratio since that period."
LordTharrion 8 months ago
@LordTharrion "The charges established in 1838, for the new pattern arms....are for the musquet 4.5 drams (124 grains)."
LordTharrion 8 months ago
@cdsadler do you think results would be the same with rifled percussion pistols?
theswordsman09 8 months ago
@theswordsman09 I have no knowledge of rifled pistols.
cdsadler 8 months ago
@cdsadler thanks anyway o you know about smooth bore pistols?
theswordsman09 8 months ago
@theswordsman09 No first hand knowledge of pistols either.
cdsadler 8 months ago
@cdsadler thanks anyway
theswordsman09 8 months ago
hmm why such a under size ball the brown bess is .750 and the ball is .670
camerl2009 10 months ago
@camerl2009 Research shows Bess bores were more like .76 in production versions, and ball used was about 0.68. A 0.75 bore and 0.67 ball replicates that windage. I presume the ball size was chosen with ease of loading a fouled gun in mind but have no references stating that.
Larger balls - 0.715 and 0.725 used today are presumably because shooters today are looking for accuracy, and have plenty of time on a range to reload.
cdsadler 10 months ago
I think that Volley-Firing was more used for the reasons of Psychology and the Battlefield-Circumstances, then pure Inaccuracy of the Musket. With Soldiers en-masse on the Battlefield, even a few Volleys choke the Battlefield in Smoke. Your Tests show exactly what I have been saying for years, that the Musket is not that bad, and that Battlefield-Circumstances do the Trick.
LutzDerLurch 1 year ago
@LutzDerLurch Agreed - as we say in the notes with the clip, shock and charge was the likely the best plan. And officers at the time often comment that firing disorders the line and cohesion after several rounds, and it was hard to get the troops to respond to new orders. So circumstances did not allow the good qualities of the Brown Bess to be exploited fully. Well, that is one view anyway.
cdsadler 1 year ago
@cdsadler Well, warfare is always a complex Matter. I have no doubts that a M16 Rifle beats the BB in all disciplines, but given that in the Vietnam Wars an average of several 100.000 rounds had to be fired to inflict a casualty, the 2-5% effectiveness of the muskets are not soo bad after all. Warfare is far more than simply weapons. However, I prefer Peace and Coexistence over War and Violence. :)
LutzDerLurch 1 year ago
@cdsadler If I may also add, as a English civil war re-enactor, the accuracy of a period smoothbore was about 4%. This is found to be quite plausible as records of a particular battle showed that two groups of musketeers about 500 a side were engaged in a fire fight for about 8 hours, after which one side reported casualties at about 80 men. So 8 men per hour is pretty inaccurate. I am surprised you actually hit the target.
Professsor 10 months ago
@Professsor Lot of issues in play in a battle. In Napoleonic engagements, eye witnesses often reported engagement ranges as far shorter than was actually the case. In a couple of engagements where ranges were actually 50-80 yards, casualties were around 50% eg for a regt at Albuera (not the whole battle).
ECW is a great period.
cdsadler 10 months ago
@cdsadler ECW is a good period indeed. I do fancy giving Napoleonics a try, but the kit is so expensive. Fancied trying Rifles but after watching a battle most of the British were comprised of 3 squadrons of rifles and 1 of foot. So, if I did do it, I would probably be a redcoat. but I would like to own a Baker and go to a range or hunting with it. Will you be doing any more videos?
Professsor 10 months ago
What was the procedure at the time for a flash in the pan misfire. Where would they get the extra powder to try it again, crack open another charge? I know i have heard of muskets with 7 or 8 charges being found in them on the battlefield.
30270534 1 year ago
@30270534 Crack open a new Cartridge and dump whatever Powder cant be filled to the Pan.
LutzDerLurch 1 year ago
@30270534 i only heard these extreme stories from Civil-War Percussion Muskets, that are actually more difficult to load.
LutzDerLurch 9 months ago
Thats some imressive accuracy, there did seem to be a pull to the right. You mention in the notes that fire by volley was reserved for close range to combine it with a bayonet charge. I personally think it had to do with penetration of the target, at close range your putting a lot more kinetic energy into the target, the protection of being in the second rank might not be as great as it would be at long range. That might be an idea for a future test.
cujomojo2007 1 year ago
sorry my english, only one (3:32) flash in the pan, apart from this no retardment between ignition and shoot, love that...
mfsm67 1 year ago
Remarkable accuracy for loads with such high windage between ball and bore. Great demonstration and very informative thank you.
fretwoork 1 year ago
This test demonstrates why the bow & arrow were replaced by the Musket, it wasn't just because the musket could shoot through plate armour as many longbow fans want you to believe, but because they could lay down more accurate directly aimed fire as-well.
Firing at 100+ meters with a bow & arrow you have to use plunging fire (i.e. indirect fire), vastly decreasing accuracy. Whilst a Musket can be aimed directly at up to 200 meters away (i.e. direct fire), providing much better accuracy.
bellator11 1 year ago
Good video guys. Tells a nice story. Given this result commanders could have tried a volley at 130 yards - load - fix bayonets - volley - charge. Training and live fire practice may be the answer.
geeress 1 year ago
its been a while since ive herd a musket go of i was jumping at the first 2 shots. thats was awesome i really love watching these videos!
BtoZproductions 1 year ago