Anarcho-Primitivism, Archeolgy and Anthropology 1/10

[undefinedleftist]

Does anyone know the name of the song at the very beginning?

[WhiteMysteryDrink]

@undefinedleftist Goodbye horses, originally done by q lazzarus, not sure who this is covering it.

[undefinedleftist]

@WhiteMysteryDrink thanks

[SSTTEEAALLTTHH]

I would argue that the only way to prevent a Malthusian catastrophe is to use technology, such as hydrophonic farming etc.

[jimbob1969]

It would help if you could spell Archaeology properly. As a consequence I didn't watch the rest.

[pornocollection]

You can tell the vid is going to be good when the starting music is attributed to a transvestite cannibal :P but seriously, much love for these vids man :D

[pornocollection]

You can tell the vid is going to be good when the starting music is attributed to a transvestite cannibal :P but seriously, much love for these vids man :D

[wildnites558]

This is the enviro movement gone completely bonkers. No one, no modern civilization is going to simply give up it's technolog and it's modern conveniences, just as no hunter from 40,000 years ago would give up his spear or dart simply because some animal rights activist came along and said it's wrong to eat meat and kill animals. The spear, the dart, the stone knife, the bow, the arrow - they were all of man's "modern technology" of that ancient age. And somehow man (and woman) still progressed.

[Matias19869]

@wildnites558

as far as I know the hunter/gather people lived for 200.000 years and are still living today WILD in harmony with nature. 10000 years ago people began to farm different places around the world. these places are now deserts. the "modern technology" might change in time, but maybe its more about not to try to TAME the nature... I dont see this as any kind of rule and there are many or every aspect counts. In the end its all evolution.

[mongoose704]

@bigkong20 Well I am not out to change your mind 8^) 

[mongoose704]

@bigkong20 That's where I have progressed. Like many I progressed from the two party system to minarchism to anarchism. I'm still a relative newborn and am still learning and developing my belief system.

[mongoose704]

@bigkong20 Ah so you would definitely view all forms of government as tyranny. I would take it that you also especially frown upon Republican and Democratic forms of government as the former is tyranny by the minority and the other tyranny by the majority. I would share a lot of your beliefs in the individualist realm. Tucker has influenced me.

[mongoose704]

@bigkong20 I see. It seems I've heard others call him a "green anarchist."

Ahh there are too many adjectives. Because of that I have to call myself an eclectic anarchist when I would just prefer to be an anarchist without adjectives 8^)

[mongoose704]

Benwalter and bigkong20

Are you anarcho-primitivists? What would you call yourself?

[benwalter]

@mongoose704 Eh, no i would not call myself an anarcho primitivist for certain. though i have been reading and thinking along those lines for a while. there is enough that i don't particularly agree with that i would not identify as such. I dunno, i see more opposition in capitalism and industrial civilization more than really civilization in general. I would just call myself an anarchist. I even hesitate to say green anarchist.

[mongoose704]

@benwalter Yeah I'm an eclectic. In this day and age of eveyrone must take a side my beliefs tend to run people the wrong way and I encounter a lot of the: "You're just trying to be everyone's best friend" from people that are trying to be everyone's worst nightmare.

Do you see capitalism as a coercive force? I see wide income inequality and extreme poverty as coercive forces. Extreme property rights could be as well, IMHO.

[benwalter]

@mongoose704 Haha yeah i see that. Well if someone even considers themselves an anarchist they are taking a stand opposing to a great portion of the population but i see what you mean. and its no use separating into tiny microcosms of ideals if that will separate you from people you almost wholly agree with.

Well yes, i think it encourages the greed and terrible things that happen for money. If everyone thought like anarchists, capitalism would not be so bad but thats not gonna happen.

[mongoose704]

@benwalter Thankfully most anarchists can accept the nuances of others although I find anarcho-capitalists to be the most intolerable of such . Note that I do not consider them true anarchists because I believe anarcho-capitalism is an illegitimate strain of anarchism. I see it as merely replacing The State with private institutiona and I believe all authoritarian hierachies and structures need to be justified while ACs think private organizations and property holders are self justified, IMHO.

[mongoose704]

@mongoose704 I should have said intolerant. ACs are intolerant of nuances. I can tolerate anyone that isn't being a total jerk with me all the time. With them I practice the non-association principle.

[benwalter]

@mongoose704 I also sort of jokingly think of myself as a primitivists sympathizer. and in my head i think of alot of the people i know being anarchist sympathizers.

[mongoose704]

@benwalter I've gathered bits from the various strains of anarchism. Primitivism has made me look at domestication, the environment and even our relations with children and animals a little differently.

[benwalter]

@mongoose704 Yeah there is alot to gain, i often tell people to look at primitivist literature even just to learn about discrimination of indigenous peoples. Also things like internalized hate for the natural world. And also its made me think more about issues of violence/nonviolence, derrick jensen secifically on that part tho i think.

[mongoose704]

@benwalter I confuse a lot of people when I say I reject the big three of socialism, fascism and capitalism. I am a free market anarchist and many people, the media and even wikipedia confuses modern capitalism with free market anarchy. There are notable differences. Of course I get my information from ecomomic texts rather than an encyclopedia anyone can contribute to, common wisdom or the mass media.

[mongoose704]

@bigkong20 What about Thoreau? Could we call him an anarhco primitivist or a Green anarchist (if there is truly such a thing and there is any difference between the two)

[MadManApothecary]

Say what you want about John Zerzan but he is a good sport and has enough humility for me to consider him a good guy without knowing him. If it had been me talking to a group and all these morons wanted to argue increasingly retarded points that got us no where but to a politically correct discussion I would have emphasized how stupid they were and then told them to go screw themselves. How many of these people seem like they want to disagree with everything. How does that get us anywhere?

[benwalter]

The argument of primitivists not living primitively is pointless. Their main idea is the civilization is destroying the indigenous cultures of the world and if we don't change this, that way of living (which is the only sustainable way of living) will be impossible. you have to reach the people in civilization to get them to think about and perhaps change their ways. If i hear one more person making this complaint i might lose it. Ignore your prejudices for a second or two. please.

[mongoose704]

@benwalter From what I've read anarcho-primitivism really isn't an ideology, a cause or even a strain of anarchy. It seems to me that it is a CRITICISM of anarchy, claiming that anarcho-domesticates don't go far enough because they haven't recognized domestication and civilization as a coercive force that must justified. If that is the case than your argument that their refusing to live primitively isn't hypocritical, stands correct.

[benwalter]

@mongoose704 the other thing i think alot and this is maybe not directly relating to what you are saying or anything but like traditional red anarchists call primitivists out on not practicing what they preach, but when is the last time you see someone live truly and fully as an anarchist, it is incredibley rare if even possible.

[mongoose704]

@benwalter While I am not an anarcho primitivist I think they do make some good points to be considered. On domestication I do not interpret anarchism meaning that we have to summarily reject all authoritarian relations. I always took it to mean that we demand justification for all such and many aspects of domestication can be justified. That is a good point about whether anarchy can exist in its pure form. I remain an eclectic anarchist but I still ask myself that question.

[benwalter]

@mongoose704 And i don't mean to even attack more traditional anarchists, i just see that double standard occasionally. Another observation i have made is often anarchist treat anarcho primitivism how, maintream people treat anarchism: Both have aspects worth critiquing, for certain, but often people dismiss them without even trying to comprehend or learn about the ideas.

[benwalter]

@mongoose704 but yes i would say i fall in a similar boat. I have been looking more into what people have called post civilization recently. One main thing is i don't really disagree with the idea of agriculture. It seems to me it would be necessary for survival after any sort of collapse situation anyway. Another point made that i think is valid, is that civilizations tend to sprout out of collapsed civilizations; that any sort of change would need to be well underway before a collapse.

[benwalter]

@mongoose704 Oh and one more thing, ha sorry. I don't really concern myself anymore with whether any of these types of changes are possible to occur. If Anarchy or primitivism or any mix match is worth anything its worth trying to live up to personally even if it never happens in a really major way. And i do think that states of anarchy (state as in like a period of existance) are possible to "work", whether or not their i think the chance of them happeneing is possible. know what i mean?

[mongoose704]

@benwalter I guess I do because I do not like exercises in futility (a bit consequentialist, maybe a bit.) But fear not anarchism received a big practical credibility boost with the Anarcho-Syndicalists of Spain. Though I am not a syndicalist it showed that anarchism could form and exist.

[benwalter]

@mongoose704 Sure, i gotcha. i guess i just mean, i think anarchist principles employed by more people would make a better place, even if no grand or total change occurs. things like cooperatively run businesses or reductions in these unbelievable class gaps. Things like that. I dunno, its not really a fully fledged point. sorta random thoughts. Yeah, there have totally been a good amount of examples of anarchism working in different instances.

[mongoose704]

@benwalter I have to agree there.

We all want a better way and we both, and more of society, are coming to the point where we are losing total faith in government and state hierarchies.

[GlobalAlternateMedia]

@benwalter

How is primitivism the only systainable way of living?

[azoth23]

Zerzan is a moron. He uses the very thing he hates to try to prove his philosophy.

Thus his arguement become null and void.

Malthus's equation dx/dt is an out of date model. A more accurate model is

dx/dt=kx-kx^2

If Zerzan was actually to practise what he preaches, he should live in a cave dressed in a a bearskin cloth and pick fruit.

[ninyae]

Any dream can become reality if enough people dream it. A way out has been shown to us through the tecniques of food forest growing, natural sequence farming and keyline water harvesting. The solutions are there. If just 10% of us get behind these techniques and demonstrate them, put them up for show in our local communities and rural areas, then the dream can switch from doom to hope. At the same time, those 10% of people are undermining corporate power by becoming producers not consumers.

[saska71]

hippydrippy old shit

fuck john o'connor

[mizzoukid19]

the thing is, AmericanApostate, that catastrophe is pretty much inevitable. we are killing our environment and ourselves at a rate that proves our doom unless we change drastically. better learn how to survive at the grassroots level now before it's too late.

[AmericanApostate]

I saw Zerzan a few months ago at my school. An interesting topic and to me a nice goal, but a pipe dream in the face of the modern world, barring a Malthusian catastrophe.

[pazomblez]

well that's the whole point isn't it? we are going towards that malthusian catastrophe at an ever-accelerating rate.

[Rodav92Metal616]

@AmericanApostate The school is also an important invention of civilization. In the school, the teachers tell you how to be a good civilian... Why Zerzan go to the place where children are educated to be a good humans inside the civilization?? He just talks primitivism, he doesn't practice primitivism

[pennilesscripple]

did i say thank you? i did.

well i'm saying it again.

this is a valuable and substantial addition to the anti-civilization videos available on youtube--a great resource for people with questions, etc. thank you!