Anytime someone is asked to simply "make a commitment" (standard Graham rhetoric), you know that already the whole process has been compromised and messed up! Nowhere in scripture is ANYONE commanded to "make a commitment" to Christ for ANY reason, much less for salvation.
This is a fundamental error of Graham and many others (Greg Laurie, Promisekeepers, and MANY others. If you don't do it the Bible way using Bible language, the whole deal is dead in the water.
Thank you for your insightful comments. I can say that today "making a decision for Christ" means something entirely different than what it meant to Moody and Spurgeon. It used to mean a person wanted to live for God until God saved the person. "Making a decision for Christ" was the beginning of a hopeful courtship rather than of a marriage vow. It was a willingness to marry if God decided to consummate the marriage.
@patrickmcintyre = I watched your video again today, as I usually pick up new stuff in this manner. If prior to Billy Sunday, ministers did NOT tell people that they were saved just by having come to an altar, and if the "struggle of faith" is necessary for salvation, whether it is just an hour, a day, or 20 years, do you not see the risk of people believing that we are justified by works - the whole James thing! None of the key verses used today state or imply anything but a KNOW-SO salvation!
You have identified a grievous problem with modern theology. We no longer have the vocabulary to discuss what theologians call prevenient grace, which means grace that ends in regeneration. Up until the 20th century, Calvinist and Arminian ministers understood that there was "common grace" and "saving grace", and there was no definite way to identify the difference. A "struggle of faith" is not necessary - it was just typical.
Saving faith didn't mean "agree with doctrine", and a profession of faith did not mean the person was willing to say he agreed with a doctrine. Saving faith meant a change of nature that happened at God’s command, which resulted in a supernatural yielding to God the Holy Spirit INSIDE the individual. A profession of faith could only be given if the person knew he was saved because he had experienced a definite working of the Holy Spirit in him and power over sin.
Up until the point of saving faith, the Holy Spirit could only act UPON a person. Most people went through a period of “law work” where the Holy Spirit would influence the seeker through various “means of grace” including preaching, reading the Bible, prayer and inquirer counseling. Law work convicted the seeker as to his true condition until the point he was able to repent by the grace of God.
I regret the use of the term “struggle of faith” because most Christians today don’t recognize common faith and saving faith. When they hear faith they immediately think “saved by faith”. I should have said “struggle of common faith”. But then I would have had to explain what ministers before the 20th century understood. That unless the faith is related to regeneration, it is only common faith. Everyone in the world has common faith.
This is brilliant! The heresy of our times is the "sinner's pray" not because of what it says but, how it is used. God has convicted me of the damage that "false" Christians have done in the churches of Canada and the US, and in political movements. My Pastor was just kicked out of a large church, with over 1000 families, for believing that God communicates to us via the Holy Spirit. My struggle of faith lasted 27 years. Every Christian should listen to your brilliant videos.
i used to be part of an evangelical church that was big on the "pray this prayer with me..." nonsense, everything was based on emotion and feelings with no thought out theology or anything, it was worthless and i eventually gave up on it
I was muslim ,read the bible ,and then God saved me through Jesus .I can truly tell you guys ,salvation is God's work and man has nothing to do with it ,I sometimes can not believe how my life changes. I'm indeed a new person and a new born in Christ. I can't picture it in word . what is more amazing is that i can not picture how and why would God sent his son Jesus to die for me . A sinner ,without hope or any power to save myself ,yet he Jesus did die for my sins ,drinking the cup of wrath ..
Amen! I have a friend who's American but is thoroughly steeped in Islam. How do you suggest I share the gospel with him? We just correspond by e-mail.
I almost feel angry that this was never taught me as a new christian so many years ago, it would have taken a lot of the grief i had over my desire for salvation and my inability to achieve it away. My own struggle lasted about 24 years.
I believe 20th century evangelicals abandoned concepts like "struggle of faith" mostly because they were intimidated by the challenges of science and didn't want there to be any "question" as to whether a person is born again. In other words, the whole issue of whether being born again is a supernatural experience or merely a psychological phenomenon has been called into question, so evangelicals, not wanting a discussion, eliminated the debate by changing their theology.
Can you suggest any good, solid, proven classic material on the subject of the struggle of faith the men here mentioned such as Jonathan Edwards or anyone else actually experienced? I would like to find this book or books and read them.
Any biography of a pre-20th century Born Again Christian will outline their struggle of faith before they recognized God saved them. A compilation of salvation stories is available in a book called Conversions edited by Hugh T. Kerr and John M. Mulder. I think it has been republished as Famous Conversions.
Thanks for the information patrick. In case you are interested there are several books that deal with different aspects of the videos here such as altar calls. The books are "The Invitation System", "Revivals and Revivalism", "The Old Evangelicals", "Evangelicalism Divided" and "Pentecost Today?" by Iain H. Murray. I guess you are probably aware of the answer Billy Graham gave Larry King on his program concerning the gospel as well as Joel Osteen.
Thank you for the information. Some Southern Baptist reformers use the information that Billy Graham recently said 80% of Southern Baptists are not born again. One of Billy Graham's key men from the 1960's told me a couple of years ago he thought the salvation prayer system went terribly wrong when it was taken from the inquiry room counseling environment and put on the back of tracts. It is now a full blown hyper-sacrament.
Matt 7:21-23 says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Saving faith is more than believing something is true.
i agree with what your videos are saying... it's good stuff. -but- watch out with your delivery, as above. some people may take that and think that salvation is by works. you need to be more specific, because if they don't know that much about the Word, they can take what you said the wrong way.
Thank you for the heads up. When replying to a comment, one must try to "read between the lines". I believe daspansker71 was expressing the view that Romans 10:9 is a formula for salvation, which is the most common view. As you know, the question isn't grace versus works, but rather, God giving salvation versus man assuming he's saved because of something he's done (repeated a salvation prayer or similar "act of faith"). God bless you. Patrick
I am not a 5 point Calvinist, but I believe in the Perseverance of the Saints the way Calvin taught it - not the way it's taught today. Calvin would say most American evangelicals are not saved, regardless of their "profession". God bless you. Patrick.
I just found out that you can do this. So on a 3 part series I did. On video #1 I did a video response with #2, and on #2 I did a video response with #3 (and I posted the links for all vids in the description).
Lots of "seeker" mentioned, but we know that no one seeks after God (Rom 3:11).
Rather God initiates by drawing people to Himself (John 6:44). Being said, man is merely a "responder" to God's call. This being the case, it supports we are truly saved by Grace & not works or actions of our own (Rom 11:6 & 2 Tim 1:9).
The rest clearly shows how we have strayed from God's drawing & grace, but instead created a man centered "easy believe-ism" w/ little noticeable change in ones life.
All you say is true. It is true that God draws man. It is true that Salvation is by the grace of God alone. It is true that Jesus says we should seek Him, Matt 6:33, Matt 7:7 and strive to enter in Luke 13:24, Acts 15:17, Acts 17:27, Hebrews 11:6. Jesus gave us a sobering description of what happens to people when they hear the Word in Matt 13:18-23. All are true.
Anytime someone is asked to simply "make a commitment" (standard Graham rhetoric), you know that already the whole process has been compromised and messed up! Nowhere in scripture is ANYONE commanded to "make a commitment" to Christ for ANY reason, much less for salvation.
This is a fundamental error of Graham and many others (Greg Laurie, Promisekeepers, and MANY others. If you don't do it the Bible way using Bible language, the whole deal is dead in the water.
Thanks !
tigerlilly66 1 year ago
Hello tigerlilly66-
Thank you for your insightful comments. I can say that today "making a decision for Christ" means something entirely different than what it meant to Moody and Spurgeon. It used to mean a person wanted to live for God until God saved the person. "Making a decision for Christ" was the beginning of a hopeful courtship rather than of a marriage vow. It was a willingness to marry if God decided to consummate the marriage.
patrickmcintyre 1 year ago
@patrickmcintyre = I watched your video again today, as I usually pick up new stuff in this manner. If prior to Billy Sunday, ministers did NOT tell people that they were saved just by having come to an altar, and if the "struggle of faith" is necessary for salvation, whether it is just an hour, a day, or 20 years, do you not see the risk of people believing that we are justified by works - the whole James thing! None of the key verses used today state or imply anything but a KNOW-SO salvation!
tigerlilly66 1 year ago
Hello tigerlilly66-
You have identified a grievous problem with modern theology. We no longer have the vocabulary to discuss what theologians call prevenient grace, which means grace that ends in regeneration. Up until the 20th century, Calvinist and Arminian ministers understood that there was "common grace" and "saving grace", and there was no definite way to identify the difference. A "struggle of faith" is not necessary - it was just typical.
patrickmcintyre 1 year ago
Hello tigerlilly66-
Saving faith didn't mean "agree with doctrine", and a profession of faith did not mean the person was willing to say he agreed with a doctrine. Saving faith meant a change of nature that happened at God’s command, which resulted in a supernatural yielding to God the Holy Spirit INSIDE the individual. A profession of faith could only be given if the person knew he was saved because he had experienced a definite working of the Holy Spirit in him and power over sin.
patrickmcintyre 1 year ago
Hello tigerlilly66-
Up until the point of saving faith, the Holy Spirit could only act UPON a person. Most people went through a period of “law work” where the Holy Spirit would influence the seeker through various “means of grace” including preaching, reading the Bible, prayer and inquirer counseling. Law work convicted the seeker as to his true condition until the point he was able to repent by the grace of God.
patrickmcintyre 1 year ago
Hello tigerlilly66-
I regret the use of the term “struggle of faith” because most Christians today don’t recognize common faith and saving faith. When they hear faith they immediately think “saved by faith”. I should have said “struggle of common faith”. But then I would have had to explain what ministers before the 20th century understood. That unless the faith is related to regeneration, it is only common faith. Everyone in the world has common faith.
God bless you.
patrickmcintyre 1 year ago
This is brilliant! The heresy of our times is the "sinner's pray" not because of what it says but, how it is used. God has convicted me of the damage that "false" Christians have done in the churches of Canada and the US, and in political movements. My Pastor was just kicked out of a large church, with over 1000 families, for believing that God communicates to us via the Holy Spirit. My struggle of faith lasted 27 years. Every Christian should listen to your brilliant videos.
billpetriejr 1 year ago
Hello billpetriejr-
Thank you for your kind words.
patrickmcintyre 1 year ago
i used to be part of an evangelical church that was big on the "pray this prayer with me..." nonsense, everything was based on emotion and feelings with no thought out theology or anything, it was worthless and i eventually gave up on it
boganlewis 2 years ago
Hello boganlewis-
Thank you for your reasoned comments.
patrickmcintyre 2 years ago
I was muslim ,read the bible ,and then God saved me through Jesus .I can truly tell you guys ,salvation is God's work and man has nothing to do with it ,I sometimes can not believe how my life changes. I'm indeed a new person and a new born in Christ. I can't picture it in word . what is more amazing is that i can not picture how and why would God sent his son Jesus to die for me . A sinner ,without hope or any power to save myself ,yet he Jesus did die for my sins ,drinking the cup of wrath ..
Muhipac 3 years ago
Hello Muhipac-
Thank you for your wonderful praise to God.
patrickmcintyre 3 years ago
I rejoiced while reading your comments. Bless you!
desertdoggz 3 years ago
Amen! I have a friend who's American but is thoroughly steeped in Islam. How do you suggest I share the gospel with him? We just correspond by e-mail.
arihalos 2 years ago
I almost feel angry that this was never taught me as a new christian so many years ago, it would have taken a lot of the grief i had over my desire for salvation and my inability to achieve it away. My own struggle lasted about 24 years.
dkshotwell 3 years ago
Hello dkshotwell-
Thank you for your comments.
patrickmcintyre 3 years ago
"Struggle of Faith", man you would not even HEAR that in most churches today, much less speak to believers who go through it.
mumpty 3 years ago
Hello Mumpty-
I believe 20th century evangelicals abandoned concepts like "struggle of faith" mostly because they were intimidated by the challenges of science and didn't want there to be any "question" as to whether a person is born again. In other words, the whole issue of whether being born again is a supernatural experience or merely a psychological phenomenon has been called into question, so evangelicals, not wanting a discussion, eliminated the debate by changing their theology.
patrickmcintyre 3 years ago
Can you suggest any good, solid, proven classic material on the subject of the struggle of faith the men here mentioned such as Jonathan Edwards or anyone else actually experienced? I would like to find this book or books and read them.
Thanks. :)
parakeethands 2 years ago
Hello parakeethands-
Any biography of a pre-20th century Born Again Christian will outline their struggle of faith before they recognized God saved them. A compilation of salvation stories is available in a book called Conversions edited by Hugh T. Kerr and John M. Mulder. I think it has been republished as Famous Conversions.
patrickmcintyre 2 years ago
Thanks for the information patrick. In case you are interested there are several books that deal with different aspects of the videos here such as altar calls. The books are "The Invitation System", "Revivals and Revivalism", "The Old Evangelicals", "Evangelicalism Divided" and "Pentecost Today?" by Iain H. Murray. I guess you are probably aware of the answer Billy Graham gave Larry King on his program concerning the gospel as well as Joel Osteen.
parakeethands 2 years ago
Hello parakeethands-
Thank you for the information. Some Southern Baptist reformers use the information that Billy Graham recently said 80% of Southern Baptists are not born again. One of Billy Graham's key men from the 1960's told me a couple of years ago he thought the salvation prayer system went terribly wrong when it was taken from the inquiry room counseling environment and put on the back of tracts. It is now a full blown hyper-sacrament.
patrickmcintyre 2 years ago
there are not any strings attached to salvation. the bible does not say u might be saved, it says u shall be saved!!!
daspankster71 3 years ago
Hello daspankster71-
Matt 7:21-23 says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Saving faith is more than believing something is true.
patrickmcintyre 3 years ago
i agree with what your videos are saying... it's good stuff. -but- watch out with your delivery, as above. some people may take that and think that salvation is by works. you need to be more specific, because if they don't know that much about the Word, they can take what you said the wrong way.
GB
CapnnIrdenory 3 years ago
Hello Capnnirdenory-
Thank you for the heads up. When replying to a comment, one must try to "read between the lines". I believe daspansker71 was expressing the view that Romans 10:9 is a formula for salvation, which is the most common view. As you know, the question isn't grace versus works, but rather, God giving salvation versus man assuming he's saved because of something he's done (repeated a salvation prayer or similar "act of faith"). God bless you. Patrick
patrickmcintyre 3 years ago
actually, this is my real name, and channel.....
yeah, i am with you... are you a Calvinist?
CapnnOrdinary 3 years ago
Hello CapnnOrdinary-
I am not a 5 point Calvinist, but I believe in the Perseverance of the Saints the way Calvin taught it - not the way it's taught today. Calvin would say most American evangelicals are not saved, regardless of their "profession". God bless you. Patrick.
patrickmcintyre 3 years ago
Thank you so much for posting this video.I learned of this when Douglas Jacoby put a link on his website for his readers to see this.
Katherine Rentino
MMCC, Philippines
kathyrentino 3 years ago
so its normal to have a struggle of faith? I am experiencing this.
germantonsy 4 years ago
BTW if you took the first vid in this series and added the following vid as video responses, that would make it easier.
Just a thot.
Love ya bro,
steve
hetgow 4 years ago
Hello hetgow-
Thank you for the suggestion.
Your right that on youtube sometimes each video is seen as a stand-alone. I'll see if youtube lets me put the third video as a video reponse.
God bless you.
Patrick
patrickmcintyre 4 years ago
I just found out that you can do this. So on a 3 part series I did. On video #1 I did a video response with #2, and on #2 I did a video response with #3 (and I posted the links for all vids in the description).
Good series Bro.
Love,
steve
hetgow 4 years ago
Lots of "seeker" mentioned, but we know that no one seeks after God (Rom 3:11).
Rather God initiates by drawing people to Himself (John 6:44). Being said, man is merely a "responder" to God's call. This being the case, it supports we are truly saved by Grace & not works or actions of our own (Rom 11:6 & 2 Tim 1:9).
The rest clearly shows how we have strayed from God's drawing & grace, but instead created a man centered "easy believe-ism" w/ little noticeable change in ones life.
Thanks
:D
hetgow 4 years ago 2
Hello hetgow-
All you say is true. It is true that God draws man. It is true that Salvation is by the grace of God alone. It is true that Jesus says we should seek Him, Matt 6:33, Matt 7:7 and strive to enter in Luke 13:24, Acts 15:17, Acts 17:27, Hebrews 11:6. Jesus gave us a sobering description of what happens to people when they hear the Word in Matt 13:18-23. All are true.
God bless you.
Patrick
patrickmcintyre 4 years ago
awesome, true, wonderful
skinapo007007 4 years ago
Is this so? Is it not simply repentance and faith?
DDDDDDDD35 4 years ago