God is irresistible because He cannot suspend His perpetual virtues.Which came first God's Spirit substance (God is Spirit ) or His Virtues, love goodness,mercy,truth,etc.? Neither of course they are simultaneous.God is self existing Life by Nature of whom He is in Virtue.If you suspend His Virtues or a Virtue of God you suspend His Life.All free will suspends God's Virtue to independent virtue which then would make God subordinate.
Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
Matthew 23:37 isn't saying the God is mourning over Jerusalem because they wouldn't come to him. He's proclaiming judgment and wrath upon the city because they were stoning the prophets. He's not saying He desired to save the current generation, but there CHILDREN. They wouldn't have it.
"O Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your CHILDREN together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
"If He really did long to gather them to Him why didnt He Irresistibly drawn them as you say He could have but didnt?"
My answer:Cuz God didnt choose to. He did NOT plan to save them, they were, as romans 9 says, "vessels prepared FOR destruction/wrath".
But, your answer would be: "cuz God cannot draw irresistibly, Even if God wanted to save Paul, Paul could have said: NO! and God woulda had to find another person. What glorifies God more? I defend God's sovereignty, you defend man's free will
Your Answer "God didnt choose to. He did NOT plan to save them,"
This is completely illogical.
Christ stated He longed to gather them to Him, You say that Christ alone decides who will be saved, then you say that Christ didn't choose to save them! Why did Christ say that He longed to gather them to himself when clearly He didn't because according to your theology He never planned to?
You defend the sovereignty of a sovereign God who says He wants to do one thing and does the opposite.
shteve77, you , like many others have twisted Matt. 23:37. It says- How often I wanted to gather YOUR CHILDREN together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. God was speaking to the Jewish leaders(Pharisees), and they were referenced as Jerusalem. He wanted to gather their CHILDREN not the leaders. It was the leaders who were unwilling, not their children. It says nothing about them not being willing. Something to keep in mind.
Friend, If Irresistible Grace is true it would be consistently shown to be so throughout scripture.
Please read Isa 5, and tell me how this can be consistent with Irresistible Grace?
"...., judge between me and my vineyard. What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad?"
If God had done everything that could be done to make them produce good fruit, why does He find only bad?
Wow! Good Sermon! Try to find a sermon like that in most churches or on Christian radio or Christian internet. I think most Christians would walk out if they heard a sermon like this.
If Grace were really irresistible, then those that Christ longed to gather to Him in Matt 23:37 would have come to Him.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Mt 23:37
The ones who were not willing to be gathered are not the Children, which would make your point, but it was the Pharisees and Jewish leaders who killed the prophets who were not willing. This is just to condemn the Jewish Leaders of preventing the children of Jerusalem from hearing God. Dont get confused, it says " YOU were not willing". not of those who Christ wanted to gather, but of another subject. Context Context context
It's Irrelevant who the people are that are not willing. The fact is, Christ declared "how often I have longed to gather". If Irresistible grace were true then these that He longed for would have been irresistibly drawn. Christ isn't lamenting because the Pharisees are preventing the "children of Jerusalem from hearing God" as you say. Christ is lamenting because he wants to gather them to himself. You're then saying that God wanted to gather people to Him but the leaders thwarted it?
In 23:13, Jesus says of the Pharisees, "You shut the kingdom of heaven in mens faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." If Irresistible grace were true then in what sense can the Pharisees "shut the Kingdom of God" in men faces if God has drawn them irresistibly? How can God's Irresistible drawing be thwarted by men? And if God hasn't drawn these men, then how can the Pharisees "Shut the Kingdom of Heaven" on men for whom God has never opened it?
You are missing one point. What the Pharisees do have consecuences. Just the same as we often say that bad theology has eternal consecuences, because it may change the eternal future of a person (whether they go to heaven or hell), the Pharisees also caused ppl to remain in their self righteousness system with their actions, which God also planned, so they are guilty of "shutting the Kingdom of Heaven". Remember the golden chain of redemption of romans 8:30. "Those He called He also Justified"
Yes the Pharisees caused people to remain in their self righteous system. But you then say "which God planned" How can the Pharisees be guilty of "shutting the Kingdom of Heaven" on these people if God has never opened it to them, and it was His plan to keep them out? And that means that Christ never actually did want to gather these people to Him, because it was His plan all along for the Pharisees to "shut them out". Did Christ really want to gather these people to Himself as He said, or not?
"How can the Pharisees be guilty of "shutting the Kingdom of Heaven"... if it was His(God's) plan to keep them out?"
Rom 9:19-21:"You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? God planned that Jesus would be crucified and betrayed by Judas, but Judas was still guilty of betraying Jesus. This is Biblical truth
Did Christ really want to gather these people to Himself as He said, or not?
If it was His plan for the Pharisees to keep these people from entering the Kingdom of Heaven then Christ never did want to gather them to Himself. Why then did He say that He did?
If Irresistible grace is true and He did want to gather them to Himself (as He stated) then why are they not Irresistibly drawn to Him?
Did Christ really want to gather these people (Matt 23:37) to Himself as He said, or not?
If it was His plan for the Pharisees to keep these people from entering the Kingdom of Heaven then Christ never did want to gather them to Himself. Why then did He say that He did?
If Irresistible grace is true and He did want to gather them to Himself (as He stated) then why are they not Irresistibly drawn to Him?
He does, That the Pharisees acted like that had to come to pass for salvation to be of the Gentiles. the Key is in verse 38:"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.'". Christ did end up gathering those He wished, there is no indication in the verse that He didnt. Besides, the word translated as "wanted" in vs37 is θέλω in Greek. and is more accurately translated as WOULD, not indicating a desire but a possibility.
Their house is left to them desolate because they refuse to believe and so do the people of Jerusalem.
Do you seriously think that Jesus laments over Jerusalem (weeping in Luke) saying "How often it's been possible for me to gather you"? That doesn't even make sense.
The word is: θέλω [will/would/would have, desire, to will, have in mind, intend]
You say Christ did end up gathering those He wished. You've just made that up. How do you come to that conclusion? Nothing in this verse ..cont.
indicates He gathered those He wished, in fact, the opposite. It doesn't mention He gathered any of them, and the only mention of the future to say Jerusalem will be left desolate. It is talking about the past. "How often I have longed" This is talking about now and many times in the past. Clearly in the past He has wanted to gather them to himself and couldn't because they refused. But you say He was lamenting over the fact that the Pharisees did exactly what He wanted them to do! What nonsense
This verse is not teaching in its context or anywhere about whether or not Grace is Irresistible. The point Jesus is making in this verse is about the condemnation and the sins of the Pharisees. I think it would be wiser if you let verses that intend to teach on Grace to be the rule in regards to those who mention something that relates to Grace in passing. Applying your interpretation style would lead to many wrong parallels from the Bible itself. Let the clear verses interpret the rest
This verse teaches us that Jesus wanted many times to show His Grace to these people, both now and in the past, but He couldnt because the Pharisees refused, and because the people refused. If a doctrine is true then no passage of the Bible will contradict it. You say Grace is Irresistible yet here clearly Christ expresses a desire to gather many to Him both now and in the past and they dont come. Therefore Grace is not Irresistible.
If a doctrine is true then no passage of the Bible will contradict it. Agreed, Mat 23:13 doesnt contradict irresistible Grace. Simply because it does not teach on irresistible grace in the first place, thats not the main theme. In the second place, even if you wanted to say that Irresistible Grace isnt biblical based on this verse, you have to try to reconcile your resistible grace theology with all the other verses that indicate otherwise, you said it yourself, gotta be consistent throughout
Of course Matt 23:37 doesn't teach on Irresistible grace, but it does teach on Christ drawing people to himself. It actually teaches on "resistible grace", as does Stephen when He tells the Jewish leaders "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (Acts 7:51)
2nd you have to understand that Matthe23:13 is not talking about an attempt of God to save anyone. If anything it is describing a natural desire, stemming from God's nature, to want good in general, including that the sons of Jerusalem had believed. But you say that didnt happen in the past, although it may have in the future. ok, but even then, God was in control, God made it happen that way. Even though God may have wanted to save someone, God didnt try nor draw them according to the verse
You say "Even though God may have wanted to save someone, God didnt try nor draw them" This is illogical. If God alone decides who will be saved then those who He doesn't save are not saved because He doesn't want them to be saved. But you say that God did want to save them! If you had the power to say a word and save someone's life, but you decide not to, how can you then argue that you really did want to save their life? Obviously you did not want to save them or else you would have acted.
Did God want His son to be horribly scourged and to suffer a humilliating death? No, But God decreed it didnt He? So I guess you would have to say that the Crucifiction is illogical too. It is funny you have the nerve to quote: No man will come to Christ on His own, but Christ said that "when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself. (Jn 12:32). So Christ draws all men when He is lifted up, so all men are saved huh? Universalism? Whats next? Open theism?
Of course God didn't want His Son to die, but it was the only way He could save sinful men so He allowed Him to be crucified. The difference is, He did it out of love for us. The love He has for mankind led Him to actually DO something, namely sacrifice His precious Son. What you said was "Even though God may have wanted to save someone, God didnt try nor draw them" God wants to save them but doesn't want to irresistibly draw them and so does nothing about it???? It's completely illogical.
Funny, your explanation for the same case that qualifies, as you claim, as "illogical" is that "God did it out of love for us". Clearly then God prefered to show His love over something that He wanted (Not having His son crucified). In the same manner, God prefered to show His Sovereignty and Glory by effectively saving those who His son died for, and so He did NOT draw someone He could have, even though He might have wanted to. Same situation, different attribute being presented. Very Logical
Nonsense. God loves men so much, He sacrificed His Son for us. God DID something He DIDN'T want to do, to accomplish what He wanted, that is our salvation. You are saying that God wanted these to be saved. Declared "how often I have longed to gather" but DIDN'T DO anything about it. If He really did long to gather them to Him why didn't He Irresistibly drawn them as you say He could have but didn't? If He had saved them, how would it have taken away from His sovereignty or Glory? Illogical!
I see you are unable to provide a solid argumentation for the verse i asked you about (Jn 6:44). Your theology is inconsistent with the verse, and its teaching is on Grace and Salvation, unlike the one you have so much trouble with (Mat23:37) which does not teach on that. You say "Clearly this verse shows this ", but fail to provide any meaningful exegesis of the scripture, rather u repeat your empty assertion, and start jumping all over the place quoting verse after verse out of context.
I left a comment about Matt 23:37 which you responded to. You then started to quote other verses such as John 6:44 because you cannot explain how Matt 23:37 can be consistent with Irresistible Grace. You also claimed that Christ only died for those that come to Him. I have given you verses that show you are wrong in those assumptions, which I note you have not responded to. If I have quoted them out of context then please show me how? (John 12:47, 2Pet 2:1)
God's grace is irresistible because God's purpose is irresistible Rom. 8. The question we have to ask ourselves is, am I redeemed? Have I been born again by his Spirit? The Sovreignty of God must be bowed to. Only a rebel will deny it. Every breath you take he gives. We must all bow to the Lord Jesus and seek mercy from him instead of debating over clear truth revealed in scripture. God's purpose cannot be overthrown by man's will, but all men are responcible to believe on the Son of God.
According to God's word, Christ is all. To the Arminian, his free will is all. To the hyper-calvinist, his sound doctrine is all. But to the believing sinner, Christ is all! I know whom I have believed, Paul said. We should all examine ourselves whether or not we know the living God, our Savior Jesus Christ. He is Sovreign, and he does save whom he will. And all his people shall be willing in the day of his power. The question is, am I born again of his Spirit, saved by his grace?
Clearly the ALL MEN in JN12:32 is not referring to every single human being, since then you would have to argue that everyone will eventually get saved. You argue that Christ "draws" all men, and allows them to refuse. So im guessing that in the group that is drawn (which you argue is everyone) there will be those who arent saved cuz they will end up refusing. You should keep reading: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." Jn6:44
You are confusing "draw" with "save". Christ didn't say "If I be lifted up I will save all men" It says "draw all men". Not "all kinds", not "some", but "all men". So, no, I dont have to argue that everyone will eventually get saved.
Show me where in the Bible does it say that those who are drawn, are not saved. The JN 6:44 reads:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
The DRAWING of the Father, results in the COMING of the ppl. The Coming of the ppl necessarily results in the "being raised at the last day". ITs an unbreakable chain THe HIM that the Father draws, is the same HIM that Jesus raises. Everyone who is drawn is saved according to this verse.
It doesn't say that all those that are drawn will come and will be raised up on the last day, and it doesn't say that everyone who is drawn is saved. You are reading your theology into the verse.
It says that, those that come to the Father have been drawn by Christ, and he will raise them up at the last day.
This does not mean that all that are drawn, come. It means that all who come will be saved.
Clearly many scriptures teach not all are saved, but all are drawn. (John 12:32)
There are many verses that show Christ died also for those that will die in their sins because they refuse to believe. "These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." John 5:39
John 12:47-48 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me..."
Clearly, many who Christ came to save will be judged for rejecting Him.
Just as a quick summary of my original question: Jn 6:44--> "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. " This means that once someone is drawn, He is able to come, and not only that, but as a result of the drawing that person will FOR SURE be raised up/saved. Keep believing in a God who attempts to save ppl but fails. I hope soon enough you realize that your idol is "free will" and ud go to incredible extents to defend ur idol.
If you want to read John 6:44 as "All that are drawn will come and are raised up on the last day" then go for your life. But the verse doesnt say that. It says "all that come are drawn and will be raised up on the last day" Every single person that comes to Christ will be raised up on the last day. And none of these can boast because it was Christ who drew them. But this doesnt mean He didnt draw others, which is consistent with John 12:32 which says that He draws all men.
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves." 2 Pe 2:1
Clearly these false teachers who bring destruction on themselves were bought by Christ.
"Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard. What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad?"
Isa 5:3-4
Please tell me why, if grace is Irresistible and God has done everything He could to make them produce good fruit then why does He find bad fruit?
Or in 2 Pet 2:1, Clearly these false teachers who bring destruction on themselves were bought by Christ.
"..., just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."
Now Jn6:44 is surely a stumbling block for your theology. Because there are several things taught. 1st. unless the Father draws a person, that person cannot come to Jesus. 2nd: Whenever the Father draws a person, Jesus will raise Him up on the last day. So whoever is drawn, will be saved necessarily. But if you wanna argue that EVERYONE is drawn, ... then you must also agree that EVERYONE is "raised up at the last day"/saved. Resistible grace is not taught in John 6, Irresistible grace is.
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." (Jn 6:44)
Who is it that is raised up on the last day? Those that come to Christ! And can anyone come to Christ on their own? Of course not! No one will come to Christ unless the Father draws Him. But again Christ said He will draw all men to himself. The Holy Spirit will "convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment" (Jn 16:8)
You want to say that the "all men" of Jn12:32 refers to every single human being, and from these ppl who are drawn by Christ, some will refuse, upon what basis? I can consistently say that the "all men", as in 1 tim 2:1-2, is not referring to every single human being but to all kinds of men. In this way, I can say that the group drawn, is the group raised, from whom Christ will lose none, and is the same group saved. Upon what basis do you say that all the drawn, are not all raised in Jn6:44?
With 2:Tim, V1 says "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone" The context is everyone. We should pray for everyone. Then it talks about a specific group we should remember to pray for, those in authority. Why? So that with good rulers "we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness." Then it says that God desires all men to be saved. Note, "all men" not "all types of men"
and also, its 1 timothy 2, and the context clearly defines what it means by ALL MEN, and the definition is "for kings and all those in authority", because The apostle wants the believers to pray for ALL kinds of men, this usage of "all men" is throughout the whole Bible. HE wrote this because the Kinds and the ones in authority were the ones persecuting the Christians, and so prayers had to be made for even them, its a kind of men. Ur traditions are too thick.
To show He meant all kinds of men, rather than write "all kinds" he writes "all men" and then He gives a list of different types of men that contains just one type, ie, rulers? Surely If you want to show you mean different types you would give a list that contains more than one type?
You must understand that the bottom line of irresistible Grace is that whatever God decrees to happen will inevitably come to pass, even in the salvation of individuals. Take: John 6 "37,All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.-39This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." There is no resisting when the Father Gives the Son a group of ppl, they will be saved.
Yes, what God decrees will come to pass but, God has decreed to allow man some degree of freedom. He allowed Israel to have a King, but told them He didn't want them to. He wants all men to accept His gift of salvation but allows them to refuse.
John 6:37 can't just be read out of context. Yes, God draws men, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44) ...cont...
No man will come to Christ on His own, but Christ said that "when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself. (Jn 12:32)
We are told the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and judgement.
In John 6:40 "For my Fathers will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." It is those who look to the Son and believe who have life. No one would look to Christ unless Christ draws them, but He draws all men and allows them to refuse.
It is the giving of the Father that precedes the coming of the people to the Son. It is not the other way around. Also, once the Father has given someone to the Son, the Son will never lose that person. Its done, saved, irresistibly. This passage teaches on Irresistible Grace, unlike Matthe23:13, which doesnt contradict it either. I can be consistent throughout the Bible with Irresistible Grace, while you cant reconcile the idea that God tries and fails to save people with scripture.
We have life when we believe as John said in 20:31 "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
I might have seen something like that. I am going to have to go check it again. Not sure of what I saw was a 'program'. I just saw a short clip of Lane in Arizona visiting Dr. White.
No, its a 'program' called Rightly Divided which is brand new. It is really good, and Dr, White was his first guest. I will send it to you, it was quite interesting and the Dr. spoke of some interesting things I never heard before, such as what's going on with the missionaries in Islamic nations.
praise Allah
skiingman97 4 months ago
it takes violence to save a sinner (enemy) praise God as he has Free will and it is perfect
eternitywithjesus888 4 months ago
academic scholarship is not revelation
skoobalon 9 months ago
zach kueker looks like jesus
skoobalon 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
You can gett this mp3 at ezmp3grab..com
produce828 1 year ago
God is irresistible because He cannot suspend His perpetual virtues.Which came first God's Spirit substance (God is Spirit ) or His Virtues, love goodness,mercy,truth,etc.? Neither of course they are simultaneous.God is self existing Life by Nature of whom He is in Virtue.If you suspend His Virtues or a Virtue of God you suspend His Life.All free will suspends God's Virtue to independent virtue which then would make God subordinate.
polopowers1 1 year ago
Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
kamaujackson811 1 year ago
Matthew 23:37 isn't saying the God is mourning over Jerusalem because they wouldn't come to him. He's proclaiming judgment and wrath upon the city because they were stoning the prophets. He's not saying He desired to save the current generation, but there CHILDREN. They wouldn't have it.
"O Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your CHILDREN together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
kamaujackson811 1 year ago
"If He really did long to gather them to Him why didnt He Irresistibly drawn them as you say He could have but didnt?"
My answer:Cuz God didnt choose to. He did NOT plan to save them, they were, as romans 9 says, "vessels prepared FOR destruction/wrath".
But, your answer would be: "cuz God cannot draw irresistibly, Even if God wanted to save Paul, Paul could have said: NO! and God woulda had to find another person. What glorifies God more? I defend God's sovereignty, you defend man's free will
aldoivan16 2 years ago
Your Answer "God didnt choose to. He did NOT plan to save them,"
This is completely illogical.
Christ stated He longed to gather them to Him, You say that Christ alone decides who will be saved, then you say that Christ didn't choose to save them! Why did Christ say that He longed to gather them to himself when clearly He didn't because according to your theology He never planned to?
You defend the sovereignty of a sovereign God who says He wants to do one thing and does the opposite.
shteve77 2 years ago
shteve77, you , like many others have twisted Matt. 23:37. It says- How often I wanted to gather YOUR CHILDREN together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. God was speaking to the Jewish leaders(Pharisees), and they were referenced as Jerusalem. He wanted to gather their CHILDREN not the leaders. It was the leaders who were unwilling, not their children. It says nothing about them not being willing. Something to keep in mind.
Haukman66 2 years ago
Friend, If Irresistible Grace is true it would be consistently shown to be so throughout scripture.
Please read Isa 5, and tell me how this can be consistent with Irresistible Grace?
"...., judge between me and my vineyard. What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad?"
If God had done everything that could be done to make them produce good fruit, why does He find only bad?
shteve77 2 years ago
Mind-blowing insight!
wtchflld31 2 years ago
Wow! Good Sermon! Try to find a sermon like that in most churches or on Christian radio or Christian internet. I think most Christians would walk out if they heard a sermon like this.
wtchflld31 2 years ago
If Grace were really irresistible, then those that Christ longed to gather to Him in Matt 23:37 would have come to Him.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Mt 23:37
shteve77 2 years ago
The ones who were not willing to be gathered are not the Children, which would make your point, but it was the Pharisees and Jewish leaders who killed the prophets who were not willing. This is just to condemn the Jewish Leaders of preventing the children of Jerusalem from hearing God. Dont get confused, it says " YOU were not willing". not of those who Christ wanted to gather, but of another subject. Context Context context
aldoivan16 2 years ago
It's Irrelevant who the people are that are not willing. The fact is, Christ declared "how often I have longed to gather". If Irresistible grace were true then these that He longed for would have been irresistibly drawn. Christ isn't lamenting because the Pharisees are preventing the "children of Jerusalem from hearing God" as you say. Christ is lamenting because he wants to gather them to himself. You're then saying that God wanted to gather people to Him but the leaders thwarted it?
shteve77 2 years ago
In 23:13, Jesus says of the Pharisees, "You shut the kingdom of heaven in mens faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." If Irresistible grace were true then in what sense can the Pharisees "shut the Kingdom of God" in men faces if God has drawn them irresistibly? How can God's Irresistible drawing be thwarted by men? And if God hasn't drawn these men, then how can the Pharisees "Shut the Kingdom of Heaven" on men for whom God has never opened it?
shteve77 2 years ago
You are missing one point. What the Pharisees do have consecuences. Just the same as we often say that bad theology has eternal consecuences, because it may change the eternal future of a person (whether they go to heaven or hell), the Pharisees also caused ppl to remain in their self righteousness system with their actions, which God also planned, so they are guilty of "shutting the Kingdom of Heaven". Remember the golden chain of redemption of romans 8:30. "Those He called He also Justified"
aldoivan16 2 years ago
Yes the Pharisees caused people to remain in their self righteous system. But you then say "which God planned" How can the Pharisees be guilty of "shutting the Kingdom of Heaven" on these people if God has never opened it to them, and it was His plan to keep them out? And that means that Christ never actually did want to gather these people to Him, because it was His plan all along for the Pharisees to "shut them out". Did Christ really want to gather these people to Himself as He said, or not?
shteve77 2 years ago
"How can the Pharisees be guilty of "shutting the Kingdom of Heaven"... if it was His(God's) plan to keep them out?"
Rom 9:19-21:"You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? God planned that Jesus would be crucified and betrayed by Judas, but Judas was still guilty of betraying Jesus. This is Biblical truth
aldoivan16 2 years ago
You are not answering the question.
Did Christ really want to gather these people to Himself as He said, or not?
If it was His plan for the Pharisees to keep these people from entering the Kingdom of Heaven then Christ never did want to gather them to Himself. Why then did He say that He did?
If Irresistible grace is true and He did want to gather them to Himself (as He stated) then why are they not Irresistibly drawn to Him?
shteve77 2 years ago
aldoivan16,
My question to you is:
Did Christ really want to gather these people (Matt 23:37) to Himself as He said, or not?
If it was His plan for the Pharisees to keep these people from entering the Kingdom of Heaven then Christ never did want to gather them to Himself. Why then did He say that He did?
If Irresistible grace is true and He did want to gather them to Himself (as He stated) then why are they not Irresistibly drawn to Him?
shteve77 2 years ago
He does, That the Pharisees acted like that had to come to pass for salvation to be of the Gentiles. the Key is in verse 38:"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.'". Christ did end up gathering those He wished, there is no indication in the verse that He didnt. Besides, the word translated as "wanted" in vs37 is θέλω in Greek. and is more accurately translated as WOULD, not indicating a desire but a possibility.
aldoivan16 2 years ago
Their house is left to them desolate because they refuse to believe and so do the people of Jerusalem.
Do you seriously think that Jesus laments over Jerusalem (weeping in Luke) saying "How often it's been possible for me to gather you"? That doesn't even make sense.
The word is: θέλω [will/would/would have, desire, to will, have in mind, intend]
You say Christ did end up gathering those He wished. You've just made that up. How do you come to that conclusion? Nothing in this verse ..cont.
shteve77 2 years ago
indicates He gathered those He wished, in fact, the opposite. It doesn't mention He gathered any of them, and the only mention of the future to say Jerusalem will be left desolate. It is talking about the past. "How often I have longed" This is talking about now and many times in the past. Clearly in the past He has wanted to gather them to himself and couldn't because they refused. But you say He was lamenting over the fact that the Pharisees did exactly what He wanted them to do! What nonsense
shteve77 2 years ago
This verse is not teaching in its context or anywhere about whether or not Grace is Irresistible. The point Jesus is making in this verse is about the condemnation and the sins of the Pharisees. I think it would be wiser if you let verses that intend to teach on Grace to be the rule in regards to those who mention something that relates to Grace in passing. Applying your interpretation style would lead to many wrong parallels from the Bible itself. Let the clear verses interpret the rest
aldoivan16 2 years ago
This verse teaches us that Jesus wanted many times to show His Grace to these people, both now and in the past, but He couldnt because the Pharisees refused, and because the people refused. If a doctrine is true then no passage of the Bible will contradict it. You say Grace is Irresistible yet here clearly Christ expresses a desire to gather many to Him both now and in the past and they dont come. Therefore Grace is not Irresistible.
shteve77 2 years ago
If a doctrine is true then no passage of the Bible will contradict it. Agreed, Mat 23:13 doesnt contradict irresistible Grace. Simply because it does not teach on irresistible grace in the first place, thats not the main theme. In the second place, even if you wanted to say that Irresistible Grace isnt biblical based on this verse, you have to try to reconcile your resistible grace theology with all the other verses that indicate otherwise, you said it yourself, gotta be consistent throughout
aldoivan16 2 years ago
Of course Matt 23:37 doesn't teach on Irresistible grace, but it does teach on Christ drawing people to himself. It actually teaches on "resistible grace", as does Stephen when He tells the Jewish leaders "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (Acts 7:51)
shteve77 2 years ago
2nd you have to understand that Matthe23:13 is not talking about an attempt of God to save anyone. If anything it is describing a natural desire, stemming from God's nature, to want good in general, including that the sons of Jerusalem had believed. But you say that didnt happen in the past, although it may have in the future. ok, but even then, God was in control, God made it happen that way. Even though God may have wanted to save someone, God didnt try nor draw them according to the verse
aldoivan16 2 years ago
You say "Even though God may have wanted to save someone, God didnt try nor draw them" This is illogical. If God alone decides who will be saved then those who He doesn't save are not saved because He doesn't want them to be saved. But you say that God did want to save them! If you had the power to say a word and save someone's life, but you decide not to, how can you then argue that you really did want to save their life? Obviously you did not want to save them or else you would have acted.
shteve77 2 years ago
Did God want His son to be horribly scourged and to suffer a humilliating death? No, But God decreed it didnt He? So I guess you would have to say that the Crucifiction is illogical too. It is funny you have the nerve to quote: No man will come to Christ on His own, but Christ said that "when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself. (Jn 12:32). So Christ draws all men when He is lifted up, so all men are saved huh? Universalism? Whats next? Open theism?
aldoivan16 2 years ago
Of course God didn't want His Son to die, but it was the only way He could save sinful men so He allowed Him to be crucified. The difference is, He did it out of love for us. The love He has for mankind led Him to actually DO something, namely sacrifice His precious Son. What you said was "Even though God may have wanted to save someone, God didnt try nor draw them" God wants to save them but doesn't want to irresistibly draw them and so does nothing about it???? It's completely illogical.
shteve77 2 years ago
Funny, your explanation for the same case that qualifies, as you claim, as "illogical" is that "God did it out of love for us". Clearly then God prefered to show His love over something that He wanted (Not having His son crucified). In the same manner, God prefered to show His Sovereignty and Glory by effectively saving those who His son died for, and so He did NOT draw someone He could have, even though He might have wanted to. Same situation, different attribute being presented. Very Logical
aldoivan16 2 years ago
Nonsense. God loves men so much, He sacrificed His Son for us. God DID something He DIDN'T want to do, to accomplish what He wanted, that is our salvation. You are saying that God wanted these to be saved. Declared "how often I have longed to gather" but DIDN'T DO anything about it. If He really did long to gather them to Him why didn't He Irresistibly drawn them as you say He could have but didn't? If He had saved them, how would it have taken away from His sovereignty or Glory? Illogical!
shteve77 2 years ago
I see you are unable to provide a solid argumentation for the verse i asked you about (Jn 6:44). Your theology is inconsistent with the verse, and its teaching is on Grace and Salvation, unlike the one you have so much trouble with (Mat23:37) which does not teach on that. You say "Clearly this verse shows this ", but fail to provide any meaningful exegesis of the scripture, rather u repeat your empty assertion, and start jumping all over the place quoting verse after verse out of context.
aldoivan16 2 years ago
I left a comment about Matt 23:37 which you responded to. You then started to quote other verses such as John 6:44 because you cannot explain how Matt 23:37 can be consistent with Irresistible Grace. You also claimed that Christ only died for those that come to Him. I have given you verses that show you are wrong in those assumptions, which I note you have not responded to. If I have quoted them out of context then please show me how? (John 12:47, 2Pet 2:1)
shteve77 2 years ago
God's grace is irresistible because God's purpose is irresistible Rom. 8. The question we have to ask ourselves is, am I redeemed? Have I been born again by his Spirit? The Sovreignty of God must be bowed to. Only a rebel will deny it. Every breath you take he gives. We must all bow to the Lord Jesus and seek mercy from him instead of debating over clear truth revealed in scripture. God's purpose cannot be overthrown by man's will, but all men are responcible to believe on the Son of God.
quaderichards02 2 years ago
According to God's word, Christ is all. To the Arminian, his free will is all. To the hyper-calvinist, his sound doctrine is all. But to the believing sinner, Christ is all! I know whom I have believed, Paul said. We should all examine ourselves whether or not we know the living God, our Savior Jesus Christ. He is Sovreign, and he does save whom he will. And all his people shall be willing in the day of his power. The question is, am I born again of his Spirit, saved by his grace?
quaderichards02 2 years ago
Clearly the ALL MEN in JN12:32 is not referring to every single human being, since then you would have to argue that everyone will eventually get saved. You argue that Christ "draws" all men, and allows them to refuse. So im guessing that in the group that is drawn (which you argue is everyone) there will be those who arent saved cuz they will end up refusing. You should keep reading: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." Jn6:44
aldoivan16 2 years ago
You are confusing "draw" with "save". Christ didn't say "If I be lifted up I will save all men" It says "draw all men". Not "all kinds", not "some", but "all men". So, no, I dont have to argue that everyone will eventually get saved.
shteve77 2 years ago
Show me where in the Bible does it say that those who are drawn, are not saved. The JN 6:44 reads:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
The DRAWING of the Father, results in the COMING of the ppl. The Coming of the ppl necessarily results in the "being raised at the last day". ITs an unbreakable chain THe HIM that the Father draws, is the same HIM that Jesus raises. Everyone who is drawn is saved according to this verse.
aldoivan16 2 years ago
It doesn't say that all those that are drawn will come and will be raised up on the last day, and it doesn't say that everyone who is drawn is saved. You are reading your theology into the verse.
It says that, those that come to the Father have been drawn by Christ, and he will raise them up at the last day.
This does not mean that all that are drawn, come. It means that all who come will be saved.
Clearly many scriptures teach not all are saved, but all are drawn. (John 12:32)
shteve77 2 years ago
There are many verses that show Christ died also for those that will die in their sins because they refuse to believe. "These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." John 5:39
John 12:47-48 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me..."
Clearly, many who Christ came to save will be judged for rejecting Him.
shteve77 2 years ago
Just as a quick summary of my original question: Jn 6:44--> "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. " This means that once someone is drawn, He is able to come, and not only that, but as a result of the drawing that person will FOR SURE be raised up/saved. Keep believing in a God who attempts to save ppl but fails. I hope soon enough you realize that your idol is "free will" and ud go to incredible extents to defend ur idol.
aldoivan16 2 years ago
If you want to read John 6:44 as "All that are drawn will come and are raised up on the last day" then go for your life. But the verse doesnt say that. It says "all that come are drawn and will be raised up on the last day" Every single person that comes to Christ will be raised up on the last day. And none of these can boast because it was Christ who drew them. But this doesnt mean He didnt draw others, which is consistent with John 12:32 which says that He draws all men.
shteve77 2 years ago
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"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves." 2 Pe 2:1
Clearly these false teachers who bring destruction on themselves were bought by Christ.
shteve77 2 years ago
"Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard. What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad?"
Isa 5:3-4
Please tell me why, if grace is Irresistible and God has done everything He could to make them produce good fruit then why does He find bad fruit?
shteve77 2 years ago
Or in 2 Pet 2:1, Clearly these false teachers who bring destruction on themselves were bought by Christ.
"..., just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."
shteve77 2 years ago
Now Jn6:44 is surely a stumbling block for your theology. Because there are several things taught. 1st. unless the Father draws a person, that person cannot come to Jesus. 2nd: Whenever the Father draws a person, Jesus will raise Him up on the last day. So whoever is drawn, will be saved necessarily. But if you wanna argue that EVERYONE is drawn, ... then you must also agree that EVERYONE is "raised up at the last day"/saved. Resistible grace is not taught in John 6, Irresistible grace is.
aldoivan16 2 years ago
Nonsense, it says
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." (Jn 6:44)
Who is it that is raised up on the last day? Those that come to Christ! And can anyone come to Christ on their own? Of course not! No one will come to Christ unless the Father draws Him. But again Christ said He will draw all men to himself. The Holy Spirit will "convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment" (Jn 16:8)
shteve77 2 years ago
You want to say that the "all men" of Jn12:32 refers to every single human being, and from these ppl who are drawn by Christ, some will refuse, upon what basis? I can consistently say that the "all men", as in 1 tim 2:1-2, is not referring to every single human being but to all kinds of men. In this way, I can say that the group drawn, is the group raised, from whom Christ will lose none, and is the same group saved. Upon what basis do you say that all the drawn, are not all raised in Jn6:44?
aldoivan16 2 years ago
With 2:Tim, V1 says "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone" The context is everyone. We should pray for everyone. Then it talks about a specific group we should remember to pray for, those in authority. Why? So that with good rulers "we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness." Then it says that God desires all men to be saved. Note, "all men" not "all types of men"
shteve77 2 years ago
and also, its 1 timothy 2, and the context clearly defines what it means by ALL MEN, and the definition is "for kings and all those in authority", because The apostle wants the believers to pray for ALL kinds of men, this usage of "all men" is throughout the whole Bible. HE wrote this because the Kinds and the ones in authority were the ones persecuting the Christians, and so prayers had to be made for even them, its a kind of men. Ur traditions are too thick.
aldoivan16 2 years ago
To show He meant all kinds of men, rather than write "all kinds" he writes "all men" and then He gives a list of different types of men that contains just one type, ie, rulers? Surely If you want to show you mean different types you would give a list that contains more than one type?
shteve77 2 years ago
You must understand that the bottom line of irresistible Grace is that whatever God decrees to happen will inevitably come to pass, even in the salvation of individuals. Take: John 6 "37,All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.-39This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." There is no resisting when the Father Gives the Son a group of ppl, they will be saved.
aldoivan16 2 years ago
Yes, what God decrees will come to pass but, God has decreed to allow man some degree of freedom. He allowed Israel to have a King, but told them He didn't want them to. He wants all men to accept His gift of salvation but allows them to refuse.
John 6:37 can't just be read out of context. Yes, God draws men, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44) ...cont...
shteve77 2 years ago
No man will come to Christ on His own, but Christ said that "when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself. (Jn 12:32)
We are told the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and judgement.
In John 6:40 "For my Fathers will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." It is those who look to the Son and believe who have life. No one would look to Christ unless Christ draws them, but He draws all men and allows them to refuse.
shteve77 2 years ago
It is the giving of the Father that precedes the coming of the people to the Son. It is not the other way around. Also, once the Father has given someone to the Son, the Son will never lose that person. Its done, saved, irresistibly. This passage teaches on Irresistible Grace, unlike Matthe23:13, which doesnt contradict it either. I can be consistent throughout the Bible with Irresistible Grace, while you cant reconcile the idea that God tries and fails to save people with scripture.
aldoivan16 2 years ago
We have life when we believe as John said in 20:31 "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
shteve77 2 years ago
This teaching was a blessing. Always good to hear brother Jim preach. Thanks for posting this Lane.
Haukman66 2 years ago
I never tire of hearing about the grace of God. I never tire of hearing truth!
Lane is always posting gems. Have you seen his new program yet?
(Laughing) ...And James White is his first guest. I never tire of him, either.
silmalila 2 years ago
I might have seen something like that. I am going to have to go check it again. Not sure of what I saw was a 'program'. I just saw a short clip of Lane in Arizona visiting Dr. White.
Haukman66 2 years ago
No, its a 'program' called Rightly Divided which is brand new. It is really good, and Dr, White was his first guest. I will send it to you, it was quite interesting and the Dr. spoke of some interesting things I never heard before, such as what's going on with the missionaries in Islamic nations.
silmalila 2 years ago
I saw it. I have seen a portion of it already. I will have to sit down, and watch the whole thing. I wanna see the one with Jim Maclarty on there.
Haukman66 2 years ago
I like this teaching
This flies in the face of those antichrists preaching that God cannot do anything on earth unless we let him do it- Myles Munroe
That is a LIE....
stopplayingchurch 2 years ago
Lookin' forward to watching this!!
As Jim says,
"Grace, grace, grace,
grace, grace,
grace, grace, grace,
grace, grace, grace, grace,
GRACE!"
Studier101 2 years ago
wooot!
Love it!
vanpatrick 2 years ago
I posted to my facebook with the comment: "Calvinists eat babies?!?!?!?!?!"
nathanjonessr 2 years ago
Gotsta have ma Jim McClarty! Thanks Lane, been waiting for this...
Soldier7of7Christ 2 years ago
Preach it brother. Jim you always challenge me.
seephas 2 years ago
I have to stop missing events like this in my hometown...........
Brutangel22 2 years ago
A close second! I can't wait either.
DefendingTheTruth 2 years ago