I don't see this as socialist at all...socialism is top down.. this is bottom up capitalism..This doesn't really have a name you could pin to it..I love it ...A well done documentary !...The people in control of their own future, sounds like liberty to me..sounds like freedom!
And lastly why did Norway do good? well Oil helped but as any other country oil have not increased the wealth of the individual actually the living standard is lower than that of sweden, with no oil. What did make Norway, holland and so on relatively succesful is the relatively low corruption. Most african countries sell their resource for pennies on the dollar and only a few persons benefit from findings, thats corruption. Norway had a different approach. and oh yes Norway has a huge goverment
And the interesting thing is that capitalist countries turn socialistic(e.g USA) and socialistic countries turn capitalistic(e.g China) very strange its like the system is changed by someone so that someone can gain benefits from that particular system, it like changing the game rules while playing, that if something that is most likely caused by corruption.
Bjarnet3 and socialistaTribalista you are having a very interesting discussion and you are probably both right in some sense since there are examples of both sucessful collectivism and of capitalism. I would go even further they can both be succesful if curruption is kept at a minimum, thats the hard part. In sovjet union capitalism failed probably because of corruption in the US capitalism has failed to corruption. Yes Amerikan capitilism is no more.
great film. watched all 9 parts of it. makes you really appreciate the things that you have, especially having a job.a great movie for people who complain about their jobs. I just hope that the whole world will not end up like Argentina. I hope for the best. But if it does, we know what to do now (:
"Rule of law, Private property and limited government is the key to prosperity"
Norway is absolutely not an example of anything close to "limited government", with some of the largest social programs in the world (per capita) and massive state run companies.
I disagree on private property, as large alternatives to industrial organization are proven (from high tech cooperatives to factories), but atleast they are not unethical nor unsustainable.
@SocialistaTribalista It is the cripple effect that is important... Not oil by itself... 400+ companies working independent. Creating tools and goods for the oil/subsea industry,, building up their capital and skill... Lets says 5 of them loosing their subsea contracts,,, it is easier for them to re-manage their factory and do something really different,,, then if it only was 1 Government run company running the whole thing.
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CRIPPLE EFFECT. Atleast trust me on this one...
no one is argueing for central economic planning, however the fact remains that Norway (gov) ows the LARGEST oil company in Europe, and that profits from it are, quoting your PM, "redistributed for social spending". that isnt free market, thats social democracy.
not sure how you think you can dispute my argument, Norway has some of the largest social democratic programs (per capita) in the world, I listed it, are you saying that was all free market? or are you saying its trivial?
garanteed minimum pensions,free single payer healthcare, highest unemplyment insurance in the world (government subsidy) of 87.6% of previous salary, and a tax rate of up to 47.8% for the highest bracket, MASSIVE state run companies holding huge market share of areas of the economy, massive corporate regulation, dispute me,is this free market? is this not market interventionist?
question, is it unethical/immoral for workers to own a company democratically? to not have bosses?
@SocialistaTribalista Social wealth-fare programs is privileges, as long as we can effort it, and as long as there is oil and resources we can indulge ourselves with those types of programs.
I live in Norway, I know how it is, the largest part of the oil industry is private,, but 40 years ago we didn't have any Private Norwegian Subsea Oil and Gas companies in Norway AT ALL. Today we have 400+, and maybe 20 000+ companies in some form of a relation to that same industry...
"Social wealth-fare programs is privileges, as long as we can effort it, and as long as there is oil and resources we can indulge ourselves with those types of programs"
your making excuses for the obvious, Norway is DEEPLY social democratic, market interventionist and has a massive state sector (by no means limited government), so you finally admit your wrong, good, were making progress.
and of course programs can only exist if there is money, how could they otherwise?
No, that is not unethical or immoral as long as it is not taken trough force by somebody.
ok, lets start off by democratizing state-owned industries, then move on to those that have pilfered from the tax payers through corporate welfare, companies like AIG, Citibank, and all there capital assets since they maintained them through nefarious means and with the peolple money. I'm fine with this, which falls under your description i mentioned above.
@SocialistaTribalista If you win 100 million in lottery, can you say? "look how good I am to make money,, look how good I am to take care of my family and friends" No,, it is obvious that you was lucky
Norway is a very bad example to listen to, if you want to become wealthy,, because we became wealthy on Natural Resources... Real Wealth creation,,, then you have to look at Google, Facebook, Microsoft & Apple... They created enormous amount of wealth from nothing...
it seems very clear that your aware you lost your arguments, so lets recap:
Norway is NOT an example of "limited government", and is by ALL social indicators (UN, World Bank, IMF, CIA World Fact Book) argueably the greatest place to live (with Netherlands and Sweden). This when at the turn of the 20th century was desperately poor, "enormous wealth from nothing", so i dont see your point about how Norway sint an example, even Facebook began with initial capital to start from.
If Norway is just a country that won "the lottery" so to speak with its natural resources, how about the Netherlands with very few natural resources, also desperately poor at the turn of the 19th century and destroyed in WW2, why is it also among the greatest places to live by all social indicators?
@SocialistaTribalista In countries where you loose private property,, you loose everything and every incentives to prosper,, remember that your body is private property. This is the last property you loose...
There are plenty of capitalist governments in the world with enormouse natural wealth, far more then Norway, that arent nearly as developed, Ukraine, Brazil, Canada, etc. Norway socio-economic system has mantained a level of education, civil society, and democratic framework that has kept it prosperous while other naturally rich nations have been ruined/handicapped by there free market approuch.
I have my facts (with data to prove), can you back up YOUR claims? i dont think so.
@SocialistaTribalista If people want to live under dictatorship or socialism,, that's ok for me,, as long as they do not force me to live under the same "coercive system"
Every men and women should be their own King and Queen, freedom should be the rule and not the exception, government should follow the people, not the opposite.
Collectivism is and has been the source to ALL EVIL. The idea that my group is more important than yours,, I cannot imagine that people is not waking up.
collectivism is near unavoidable, to live in Norway is collectivism, your a citizen with rights and responsibilities, you cant kill anyone without consequences, but neither can anyone do the same to you without consequences, thats a core collectivist notion that near everyone accepts. Do you not believe in the 'social contract'? if not why not live in the wilderness where you can escape this "evil" collectivism.
something tells me you've never heard of the social contract...
"coercive system" by definition any state is coercive, arent police coercive forces (if not then can you tell the police rules dont apply to you? i dont think so), arent ALL taxes coercive (do you believe in NO taxes, i.e. no funding AT ALL for the government).
workers democracy is not a dictatorship, you agreed it wasnt unethical, if people decide through elections they want a differant economic system should they not have the right to form it? or is democracy also "evil"?
@SocialistaTribalista Venezuela have 7 companies and all of them is own by the government... Do not fool yourself and believe that just because Norway have a state owned big oil company,, that Norway is a big success because of Statoil... LOL, do not be ignorant...
Statoil is not the success,, but the privatly owned industry is, tens of thousands of individual working free and independent is working much better together than a few publicly owned....
Venezuela has 7 companies? in all of Venezuela there are only 7 privately run companies? can you tell me where you got this "fact"?
Sir, I can quote you and send you the Associated Press article, which in turn was quoting a World Bank official, where did you get your info?
does Norway own the largest oil company in Europe or not, does that company redistribute wealth to the population or not, is that an example of Limited government or not, its very simple sir.
@SocialistaTribalista And now the answer to your question "is it unethical/immoral for workers to own a company democratically? to not have bosses?"
No, that is not unethical or immoral as long as it is not taken trough force by somebody. Actually the stock marked is many times like that... Pensions funds, social-security and medical insurances are all using this model...
Bosses specialize in accumilating capital, as the film showed and as cooperative high teck companies show (theres an example of one in Capitalism a love story) they are not essential, we can disagree but the fact remains that large and impressive companies exist that prove alternatives are sustainable, for example the video above.
its not just an issue of the share in wealth, its an issue that it is inherently unethical to have rent labor, that private tyrranies are not essential.
This is one of the most inspiring things I've ever watched. I think this model is actually more suited for alot of people's basic instincts, maybe not all but alot. Complete democracy in a work place. It does make alot of sense if you don't assume the worst in the majority of people in this world ......
''LOOK INTO A MIRROR, DONT BECOME THE WASTE OF THE GLOBALISED WORLD''. I am a Pakistani and I salute the Argentinian's for the huge difference that they have made for us all as citizens of the world! They have truely set a milestone for us all! Thank you Dear Argentina!!!!!!
I like this ending,, but I do not agree that you should take over private property,, BUT THIS FACTORY HAS BEEN SUBSIDIZED, so in a way it belongs to the people or workers. The government should not subsidize anything, thats the main problem.
If they do not subsidize, the taxes can be lower, If the taxes are lower, more people can save money (create capital), if more people save, more people invest, if more people invest, more jobs is created...
@bjarnet3 This is the "free market system", except that the workers are also the owners. The whole system can still be run on laissez-faire economic principles.
sure, if you want to believe that and you dont like the term "socialism", fine call it what you like, but this is what ALL us revolutionary workers want, this is the model we fight for, not the Soviet nonsense, its what Venezuela is building, what Argentinians are building, democratic ownership of the means of production and distribution.
well near all of the largest corporations in the world exist today because of large subsidies and corporate welfare, so if we just start expropriating them we're already off to a great start haha
I cant wait to see a cooperative Microsoft and Ford, or cooperative AIG and Wal Mart.
how about a "free market" society, if you want to call it that, where all industry is democrtized like in the video, wouldnt that be a better society? no bosees, industrial democracy?
Like doctors specialize in medicine, bosses specialize in doing business.
Many large companies today have millions of stock-owners,, thereby pension funds, social security, medical security, insurance funds. They have a share in the wealth from large companies, but we only read about the CEO's large profits.
The most free societies is the wealthiest. This is not magic, it is just facts.. Rule of law, Private property and limited government is the key to prosperity.
Bosses specialize in accumilating capital, as the film showed and as cooperative high teck companies show (theres an example of one in Capitalism a love story) they are not essential, we can disagree but the fact remains that large and impressive companies exist that prove alternatives are sustainable, for example the video above.
its not just an issue of share in wealth, its an issue that it is inherently unethical to have rent labor, that private tyrranies are not essential.
we may disagree on labor theory of value and if capitalism is unethical, but surely a democratic workplace isnt, and we can both agree to that, and if the model is possible, and it is, there is no wrong in implementing such a system, especially from the ground up.
since 1968 the US economy has doubled yet real-wages remain stagnant within a 1% margin, that doesnt seem to show the benevolence of corporations to me, however thi isnt core to the discussion.
@bjarnet3 it generally is the rule, today, that the richer a country the more democratic it may be, however I think your connecting dots that arent there, for example if limited government is key, why are the greatest places to live, by EVERY independant standard of living, deeply social democratic, highly market interventionist, Nordic countries, which at the turn of the 19th century were desperately poor?
@SocialistaTribalista Well I live in a so called Social Democratic Nordic Country,, And we have much less interference then so called capitalistic countries,,, Norway where I come from, have a strong support for Rule of Law and private property, low amount of regulations, NO minimum wage laws (yet nobody is paid less then 20$ / hour), short time to start a business (less then 7 days), the government recently cut huge amount of regulations "to start a business".
sorry to correct a norwegian about their own country but...
Norway's minimum wage is 10 Euros for immigrants, and while yes there is no federal minimum, labor unions negotiate contracts for 70/55 percent of public/private workers, ask any monetarist, labor unions distort markets as they are not interrelated (government also plays a role through negotioting wage ranges via NTC Calculation Committee for Wage Settlements). Buisness doesnt decide wages in Norway, workers do.
the state owns huge parts of the economy like Stateoil, Statcraft (hydroelectricity), Telenor (telecommunications), Norsk-Hydo (aluminum production), to name a few.
you also have garanteed minimum pensions, free single payer healthcare, the highest unemplyment insurance in the world (government subsidy) of 87.6% of previous salary, and a tax rate of up to 47.8% for the highest bracket.
regulation on industry is massive, lets not even get started.
@SocialistaTribalista You have many facts distorted her my friend... Just to mention,, I have owned and run my own business since I was 16 years old. I also have subsea oil and drilling related education aswell.
I must say that the Norwegian government has done a good job on dividing the wealth between thousands of private companies... Norway have 400+ Private Subsea Oil and Gas Companies in Norway, compared to Socialistic Venezuela who have only 7 (State run companies).
no I dont, does your coutries unions negotiate 70/55% of your workforces contracts? (I can site you norwegian gov. stats if you like)
Does your country have DEEPLY interventionist policies like garanteed minimum pensions (why not private?) single payer healthcare (why not private?) the worlds highest unemployment insurance (why not 33% like in America) and a high tax rate that largely goes to "social spending" (stoltenberg's words not mine).
Statoil is the largest offshore oil company in the world, the government owns 67% of it., though it may be a diversified sector, the state is by far the largest entity (I can back this up with facts from Wall Street Journal and your government if you like)
To compare Norway and Venezuela is unfair, like comparing Sri Lanka to Japan. Venezuela is a developing country, Norway is a highly developed country, and with very differant models.
@SocialistaTribalista No, Venezuela is the perfect example, where they have no private property, no individual rights (only privileges).. No private businesses.. Venezuela will never become wealthy if they continue their policies.
Even though Statoil is the larges company, they do not own most percentage of the oil sector... I bet all 400+ private companies togheter is worth far more then Statoil alone... But you must put this in context,, We didn't have wealthy private investors before the oil
No private property? do you have proof of this, according to Associated Press over 80% of Venezuela's economy is private.No individual rights? you read too much opposition press, I can debate every bit of it (and win) but thats a very long conversation and alot of articles and studies to send. In Venezuela, you have the right to protest, right to vote in internationally credited free/fair elections,etc
the goal in Ven. is not central economic planning, its worker cooperatives
@SocialistaTribalista "why are the greatest places to live, by EVERY independant standard of living, deeply social democratic, highly market interventionist"
Can you please tell me where you get that info from? I know the question makes it sound like I'm trying to discredit what you're saying, but I'm not. I'd just like to see some solid statistics pinning regulation vs. free-ish market based economies. I'm still uncertain as to whether I should lean left or right when it comes to economics.
no offense taken, socio-economic data is freely and widely available, and well sourced, check the Human Development Index, CIA World Factbook, World Bank sourced material, and depending on what specific stats your looking for there are a variety of trusted studies.
Argentina in South America (compare to freeish market Colombia), Japan in Asia (compare to China), South Africa in africa, Netherlands/Norway/Sweden in Europe, etc.
Well done people, well done! Politicians, as we've seen are by definition corrupt. Che is going to come out there one day and fight alongside with you and companeros and cooperatives are going to make the lives of local people better. Take it back one by one. If people unite they will be stronger than thanks and police. Unite.
I was just wondering why the workers didnt just build a new factory instead of wasting time trying to take over the old one. That would have created a lot more jobs. So if this model works, why havent all the unemployed people in the US come together and build a factory and start producing widgets? Whose stopping them?
@spiffy43 PART 1 NO! my point is that these factory workers would never have their jobs if owner of the factory didn’t risk their savings to build it. This is the part that socialists don’t understand. All socialists want, is for the workers to own the factory and produce a product for a fair wage. So how do you get a bunch of strangers to build a factory from scratch so that they can work for a fair wage?
@studentofmises Socialism-versus-capitalism is such a tired argument. Why are we discussing 16th century economics versus 19th century economics? I want a 21st century economic system which, clearly, should be incredulous towards authority.
These "socialist" workers are more entrepreneurial than 90% of business people I work with. I think they're on the right track.
@spiffy43 You are right, these are hard working people. But that’s not the problem. The problem is precisely what you do not want to discuss. This is socialism vs. capitalism issue. There no better system than the free market capitalistic system, where people pursuing their own interests help better society as a whole. History does not lie. That is what the 21st century economic system should go back too.
@spiffy43@studentofmises Guys it is not a Socialism-versus-capitalism issue. Their problem relys on globalization. For the owners it is just coins, what they took ower, though the profit they have taken from Argentina are millions.
@spiffy43 part 2 If you can answer that, then you have just solved our unemployment problem. Remember these people in the documentary took (stole) the factories from the owners. This is why it is easy to be a socialist, communist, fascist ( all the same) because you don’t have to think to create anything, all you have to do is take it from others.
@studentofmises "Remember these people in the documentary took (stole)"
In this case their actions are justified as they too were stolen from in the form of unpaid wages, as noted in Part 1. Theoretically 2 wrongs shouldn't make a right, but when 1 wrong leaves the victims in such a state of financial despair, I can't blame them for resorting to what they resorted to here. Ultimately, the law acknowledged this as well.
@Arnie1Lerma maybe they should make a pill.........of course you and I are not greedy its always the other people. Would you ever take a job that pays more than another?
@studentofmises "of course you and I are not greedy its always the other people"
There's people who strive for a modestly comfortable lifestyle, and then there's gluttony. Why try to equate the two?
"Would you ever take a job that pays more than another?"
Not if what I'm currently making is enough to support my modest means of living, and more importantly, if me accepting the other job would result in a person with many children to feed getting fired & being left without an alternative.
Part 2 “u wouldn’t take a job that would result in a starving family without any alternative” Look I am glad that u wouldn’t but what if u had a starving family to feed and needed that job? U are assuming all things should work a certain way if it works for u, but the truth is that everything is different for everyone and u cannot lump us all in one group. Your definition of modesty is different from mine and everyone else’s.
Part 1 So if we do not live up to your standards of modesty then we fall in the gluttony category and are greedy. I was unaware that u are the one that speaks for us all and can differentiate what is and what isn’t modest.
Also, it's interesting to see the split consciousness of the worker in the occupied factory 'supporting' a presidential candidate. For those saying about IQ it has nothing to do with workers consciousness! It has everything to do with false consciousness not IQ levels, they are not the same thing! There will always have to be a class war, there is no other way. The proletariat will carry out its historical role of destroying all classes and creating a classless society.
Thanks for the uplaod! Certainly relations of production have changed to a certain extent. However, how long is it before the contradictions between workers on equal pay with no bosses come up against the occupied work places without equal pay and bosses. And the new government. Also the power of the state being used against the workers who are trying to get back in their workplaces. If there was ever an argument for the dictatorship of the proletariat is this film not it?
Very briefly, whilst I am at university. It could easily have mentioned Juan Perón's adminration of Mussolini, protection of Nazi war criminals and suppression of opposition instead of hinting that he was a social reformer. Secondly, it does not mention the Trot group that the main fellow dfeatured in the documentary is part of.
Excellent video series. But a creepy look into the possible future of other countries if we are not careful. It did not look like either side got overly violent which i doubt would be the case in America so we need to prevent this happening here,By waking up and admitting that it is actually happening right now. Stop living in denial Please!
Thank you for posting this compelling documentary, definitely a 10. The prophetic letter given to Naomi Klein is haunting...
"We are the mirror to look into. The mistake to avoid. Argentina is the waste that remains of a globalized country. We are where the rest of the world is going."
My channel has playlists on Argentina's economic collapse, banking fraud, black ops, bioterrorism, chem trails, economy, global warming scam, masons, NWO, propaganda, vaccines, 911 and more.
Very good film. Inspiring. Decentralised direct democracy is the truly adaptive and thus sustainable way forward. Those workers are an example to us all. When knowledge is born conscience is awakened.
When the shoe factories in NH and ME were being closed-after many generations of family skills-We the poeple needed to do the same. skills of generations are stolen by fascist corporate owners,who take the profits of the backbone of another's labor. Steal the education from the next generation and walk away with the food from the workman's table, then return to crush family loyality so the man is left with
nothing. Free Enterprise and Natural Family built the states!
I don't see this as socialist at all...socialism is top down.. this is bottom up capitalism..This doesn't really have a name you could pin to it..I love it ...A well done documentary !...The people in control of their own future, sounds like liberty to me..sounds like freedom!
toddholladay 1 week ago
Comment removed
jsgdk 1 month ago in playlist The Take (La Toma) English subtitles
This could be a good punishment method for corporations in USA.
You cant really imprison a corporation or execute it for serious crimes..
and theyre supposed to be like people? lol
jsgdk 1 month ago in playlist The Take (La Toma) English subtitles
I was wondering where people got the idea of cooperatives from at Occupy Wall Street. Now I know.
riethc 3 months ago in playlist The Take (La Toma) English subtitles
thank you for this documentary :)
colombo14 3 months ago
I love happy endings! :)
pwpg0516 4 months ago
Thank you for this post.It is inlightning to see some answers to some of the hard problems we are all facing.
americanmutt100 5 months ago 2
And lastly why did Norway do good? well Oil helped but as any other country oil have not increased the wealth of the individual actually the living standard is lower than that of sweden, with no oil. What did make Norway, holland and so on relatively succesful is the relatively low corruption. Most african countries sell their resource for pennies on the dollar and only a few persons benefit from findings, thats corruption. Norway had a different approach. and oh yes Norway has a huge goverment
MikeKay1978 6 months ago
And the interesting thing is that capitalist countries turn socialistic(e.g USA) and socialistic countries turn capitalistic(e.g China) very strange its like the system is changed by someone so that someone can gain benefits from that particular system, it like changing the game rules while playing, that if something that is most likely caused by corruption.
MikeKay1978 6 months ago
Bjarnet3 and socialistaTribalista you are having a very interesting discussion and you are probably both right in some sense since there are examples of both sucessful collectivism and of capitalism. I would go even further they can both be succesful if curruption is kept at a minimum, thats the hard part. In sovjet union capitalism failed probably because of corruption in the US capitalism has failed to corruption. Yes Amerikan capitilism is no more.
MikeKay1978 6 months ago
does anyone know the name of the classical song throughout the film?? i love it and cant find the name of it anywhere!
iusehax 6 months ago
@iusehax "Santa Maria Del Buen Ayre" by Gotan Project.
grakeico 5 months ago
This reminds me of Yugoslavia.
Serbiawhat 7 months ago
Excellent documentary!
chaoabordo 7 months ago
inspirational.
simonmow1 9 months ago
this is a great story but as usual, the tea party types are here to 'dis' the film...
granskare 11 months ago
great film. watched all 9 parts of it. makes you really appreciate the things that you have, especially having a job.a great movie for people who complain about their jobs. I just hope that the whole world will not end up like Argentina. I hope for the best. But if it does, we know what to do now (:
uzer76 11 months ago
Inspiring, I saw this film in NYC and the audience was cheering the workers at the end of the movie.
Marielalaura 1 year ago
your initial claim
"Rule of law, Private property and limited government is the key to prosperity"
Norway is absolutely not an example of anything close to "limited government", with some of the largest social programs in the world (per capita) and massive state run companies.
I disagree on private property, as large alternatives to industrial organization are proven (from high tech cooperatives to factories), but atleast they are not unethical nor unsustainable.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@SocialistaTribalista It is the cripple effect that is important... Not oil by itself... 400+ companies working independent. Creating tools and goods for the oil/subsea industry,, building up their capital and skill... Lets says 5 of them loosing their subsea contracts,,, it is easier for them to re-manage their factory and do something really different,,, then if it only was 1 Government run company running the whole thing.
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CRIPPLE EFFECT. Atleast trust me on this one...
bjarnet3 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
no one is argueing for central economic planning, however the fact remains that Norway (gov) ows the LARGEST oil company in Europe, and that profits from it are, quoting your PM, "redistributed for social spending". that isnt free market, thats social democracy.
not sure how you think you can dispute my argument, Norway has some of the largest social democratic programs (per capita) in the world, I listed it, are you saying that was all free market? or are you saying its trivial?
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
garanteed minimum pensions,free single payer healthcare, highest unemplyment insurance in the world (government subsidy) of 87.6% of previous salary, and a tax rate of up to 47.8% for the highest bracket, MASSIVE state run companies holding huge market share of areas of the economy, massive corporate regulation, dispute me,is this free market? is this not market interventionist?
question, is it unethical/immoral for workers to own a company democratically? to not have bosses?
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@SocialistaTribalista Social wealth-fare programs is privileges, as long as we can effort it, and as long as there is oil and resources we can indulge ourselves with those types of programs.
I live in Norway, I know how it is, the largest part of the oil industry is private,, but 40 years ago we didn't have any Private Norwegian Subsea Oil and Gas companies in Norway AT ALL. Today we have 400+, and maybe 20 000+ companies in some form of a relation to that same industry...
bjarnet3 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
"Social wealth-fare programs is privileges, as long as we can effort it, and as long as there is oil and resources we can indulge ourselves with those types of programs"
your making excuses for the obvious, Norway is DEEPLY social democratic, market interventionist and has a massive state sector (by no means limited government), so you finally admit your wrong, good, were making progress.
and of course programs can only exist if there is money, how could they otherwise?
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
No, that is not unethical or immoral as long as it is not taken trough force by somebody.
ok, lets start off by democratizing state-owned industries, then move on to those that have pilfered from the tax payers through corporate welfare, companies like AIG, Citibank, and all there capital assets since they maintained them through nefarious means and with the peolple money. I'm fine with this, which falls under your description i mentioned above.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@SocialistaTribalista If you win 100 million in lottery, can you say? "look how good I am to make money,, look how good I am to take care of my family and friends" No,, it is obvious that you was lucky
Norway is a very bad example to listen to, if you want to become wealthy,, because we became wealthy on Natural Resources... Real Wealth creation,,, then you have to look at Google, Facebook, Microsoft & Apple... They created enormous amount of wealth from nothing...
bjarnet3 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
it seems very clear that your aware you lost your arguments, so lets recap:
Norway is NOT an example of "limited government", and is by ALL social indicators (UN, World Bank, IMF, CIA World Fact Book) argueably the greatest place to live (with Netherlands and Sweden). This when at the turn of the 20th century was desperately poor, "enormous wealth from nothing", so i dont see your point about how Norway sint an example, even Facebook began with initial capital to start from.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
If Norway is just a country that won "the lottery" so to speak with its natural resources, how about the Netherlands with very few natural resources, also desperately poor at the turn of the 19th century and destroyed in WW2, why is it also among the greatest places to live by all social indicators?
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@SocialistaTribalista In countries where you loose private property,, you loose everything and every incentives to prosper,, remember that your body is private property. This is the last property you loose...
bjarnet3 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
There are plenty of capitalist governments in the world with enormouse natural wealth, far more then Norway, that arent nearly as developed, Ukraine, Brazil, Canada, etc. Norway socio-economic system has mantained a level of education, civil society, and democratic framework that has kept it prosperous while other naturally rich nations have been ruined/handicapped by there free market approuch.
I have my facts (with data to prove), can you back up YOUR claims? i dont think so.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago 2
@SocialistaTribalista If people want to live under dictatorship or socialism,, that's ok for me,, as long as they do not force me to live under the same "coercive system"
Every men and women should be their own King and Queen, freedom should be the rule and not the exception, government should follow the people, not the opposite.
Collectivism is and has been the source to ALL EVIL. The idea that my group is more important than yours,, I cannot imagine that people is not waking up.
bjarnet3 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
collectivism is near unavoidable, to live in Norway is collectivism, your a citizen with rights and responsibilities, you cant kill anyone without consequences, but neither can anyone do the same to you without consequences, thats a core collectivist notion that near everyone accepts. Do you not believe in the 'social contract'? if not why not live in the wilderness where you can escape this "evil" collectivism.
something tells me you've never heard of the social contract...
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
"coercive system" by definition any state is coercive, arent police coercive forces (if not then can you tell the police rules dont apply to you? i dont think so), arent ALL taxes coercive (do you believe in NO taxes, i.e. no funding AT ALL for the government).
workers democracy is not a dictatorship, you agreed it wasnt unethical, if people decide through elections they want a differant economic system should they not have the right to form it? or is democracy also "evil"?
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@SocialistaTribalista Venezuela have 7 companies and all of them is own by the government... Do not fool yourself and believe that just because Norway have a state owned big oil company,, that Norway is a big success because of Statoil... LOL, do not be ignorant...
Statoil is not the success,, but the privatly owned industry is, tens of thousands of individual working free and independent is working much better together than a few publicly owned....
bjarnet3 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
Venezuela has 7 companies? in all of Venezuela there are only 7 privately run companies? can you tell me where you got this "fact"?
Sir, I can quote you and send you the Associated Press article, which in turn was quoting a World Bank official, where did you get your info?
does Norway own the largest oil company in Europe or not, does that company redistribute wealth to the population or not, is that an example of Limited government or not, its very simple sir.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@SocialistaTribalista And now the answer to your question "is it unethical/immoral for workers to own a company democratically? to not have bosses?"
No, that is not unethical or immoral as long as it is not taken trough force by somebody. Actually the stock marked is many times like that... Pensions funds, social-security and medical insurances are all using this model...
But the problem is that it becomes inefficient...
bjarnet3 1 year ago
Bosses specialize in accumilating capital, as the film showed and as cooperative high teck companies show (theres an example of one in Capitalism a love story) they are not essential, we can disagree but the fact remains that large and impressive companies exist that prove alternatives are sustainable, for example the video above.
its not just an issue of the share in wealth, its an issue that it is inherently unethical to have rent labor, that private tyrranies are not essential.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
These are the "evil communists" american conservatives are always warning us about?
TheForwardGaze 1 year ago 2
@TheForwardGaze
yup, heaven forbid we ever try that here.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
Is it me, or does Maty's baby at 2:45 have this really awesome look of defiance??!!
dOZE86 1 year ago
This is one of the most inspiring things I've ever watched. I think this model is actually more suited for alot of people's basic instincts, maybe not all but alot. Complete democracy in a work place. It does make alot of sense if you don't assume the worst in the majority of people in this world ......
chisler000009 1 year ago
Look around you at the workers of the world forced into a race to the bottom by globalization. Even those in the "new economy" will not be spared.
Here we have an example of how we can move beyond this organized barbarism!
Great film!
wiegraf9009 1 year ago
anyone know the name of the music at the end? thanks
toxicapple 1 year ago
''LOOK INTO A MIRROR, DONT BECOME THE WASTE OF THE GLOBALISED WORLD''. I am a Pakistani and I salute the Argentinian's for the huge difference that they have made for us all as citizens of the world! They have truely set a milestone for us all! Thank you Dear Argentina!!!!!!
MrSWATIMAN 1 year ago
I love a happy ending. . . Power to the people. . . . Freedom for tooting. . . .
dixon97a 1 year ago
I like this ending,, but I do not agree that you should take over private property,, BUT THIS FACTORY HAS BEEN SUBSIDIZED, so in a way it belongs to the people or workers. The government should not subsidize anything, thats the main problem.
If they do not subsidize, the taxes can be lower, If the taxes are lower, more people can save money (create capital), if more people save, more people invest, if more people invest, more jobs is created...
I LIKE THE FREE MARKED CAPITALIST SYSTEM.
bjarnet3 1 year ago
@bjarnet3 This is the "free market system", except that the workers are also the owners. The whole system can still be run on laissez-faire economic principles.
tr7386 1 year ago
@tr7386
sure, if you want to believe that and you dont like the term "socialism", fine call it what you like, but this is what ALL us revolutionary workers want, this is the model we fight for, not the Soviet nonsense, its what Venezuela is building, what Argentinians are building, democratic ownership of the means of production and distribution.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
well near all of the largest corporations in the world exist today because of large subsidies and corporate welfare, so if we just start expropriating them we're already off to a great start haha
I cant wait to see a cooperative Microsoft and Ford, or cooperative AIG and Wal Mart.
how about a "free market" society, if you want to call it that, where all industry is democrtized like in the video, wouldnt that be a better society? no bosees, industrial democracy?
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@SocialistaTribalista
Like doctors specialize in medicine, bosses specialize in doing business.
Many large companies today have millions of stock-owners,, thereby pension funds, social security, medical security, insurance funds. They have a share in the wealth from large companies, but we only read about the CEO's large profits.
The most free societies is the wealthiest. This is not magic, it is just facts.. Rule of law, Private property and limited government is the key to prosperity.
bjarnet3 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
Bosses specialize in accumilating capital, as the film showed and as cooperative high teck companies show (theres an example of one in Capitalism a love story) they are not essential, we can disagree but the fact remains that large and impressive companies exist that prove alternatives are sustainable, for example the video above.
its not just an issue of share in wealth, its an issue that it is inherently unethical to have rent labor, that private tyrranies are not essential.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
we may disagree on labor theory of value and if capitalism is unethical, but surely a democratic workplace isnt, and we can both agree to that, and if the model is possible, and it is, there is no wrong in implementing such a system, especially from the ground up.
since 1968 the US economy has doubled yet real-wages remain stagnant within a 1% margin, that doesnt seem to show the benevolence of corporations to me, however thi isnt core to the discussion.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@bjarnet3 it generally is the rule, today, that the richer a country the more democratic it may be, however I think your connecting dots that arent there, for example if limited government is key, why are the greatest places to live, by EVERY independant standard of living, deeply social democratic, highly market interventionist, Nordic countries, which at the turn of the 19th century were desperately poor?
and that is a fact.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@SocialistaTribalista Well I live in a so called Social Democratic Nordic Country,, And we have much less interference then so called capitalistic countries,,, Norway where I come from, have a strong support for Rule of Law and private property, low amount of regulations, NO minimum wage laws (yet nobody is paid less then 20$ / hour), short time to start a business (less then 7 days), the government recently cut huge amount of regulations "to start a business".
bjarnet3 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
sorry to correct a norwegian about their own country but...
Norway's minimum wage is 10 Euros for immigrants, and while yes there is no federal minimum, labor unions negotiate contracts for 70/55 percent of public/private workers, ask any monetarist, labor unions distort markets as they are not interrelated (government also plays a role through negotioting wage ranges via NTC Calculation Committee for Wage Settlements). Buisness doesnt decide wages in Norway, workers do.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
the state owns huge parts of the economy like Stateoil, Statcraft (hydroelectricity), Telenor (telecommunications), Norsk-Hydo (aluminum production), to name a few.
you also have garanteed minimum pensions, free single payer healthcare, the highest unemplyment insurance in the world (government subsidy) of 87.6% of previous salary, and a tax rate of up to 47.8% for the highest bracket.
regulation on industry is massive, lets not even get started.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@SocialistaTribalista You have many facts distorted her my friend... Just to mention,, I have owned and run my own business since I was 16 years old. I also have subsea oil and drilling related education aswell.
I must say that the Norwegian government has done a good job on dividing the wealth between thousands of private companies... Norway have 400+ Private Subsea Oil and Gas Companies in Norway, compared to Socialistic Venezuela who have only 7 (State run companies).
bjarnet3 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
"you have many facts distorted"
no I dont, does your coutries unions negotiate 70/55% of your workforces contracts? (I can site you norwegian gov. stats if you like)
Does your country have DEEPLY interventionist policies like garanteed minimum pensions (why not private?) single payer healthcare (why not private?) the worlds highest unemployment insurance (why not 33% like in America) and a high tax rate that largely goes to "social spending" (stoltenberg's words not mine).
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
Statoil is the largest offshore oil company in the world, the government owns 67% of it., though it may be a diversified sector, the state is by far the largest entity (I can back this up with facts from Wall Street Journal and your government if you like)
To compare Norway and Venezuela is unfair, like comparing Sri Lanka to Japan. Venezuela is a developing country, Norway is a highly developed country, and with very differant models.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@SocialistaTribalista No, Venezuela is the perfect example, where they have no private property, no individual rights (only privileges).. No private businesses.. Venezuela will never become wealthy if they continue their policies.
Even though Statoil is the larges company, they do not own most percentage of the oil sector... I bet all 400+ private companies togheter is worth far more then Statoil alone... But you must put this in context,, We didn't have wealthy private investors before the oil
bjarnet3 1 year ago
@bjarnet3
No private property? do you have proof of this, according to Associated Press over 80% of Venezuela's economy is private.No individual rights? you read too much opposition press, I can debate every bit of it (and win) but thats a very long conversation and alot of articles and studies to send. In Venezuela, you have the right to protest, right to vote in internationally credited free/fair elections,etc
the goal in Ven. is not central economic planning, its worker cooperatives
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
@SocialistaTribalista "why are the greatest places to live, by EVERY independant standard of living, deeply social democratic, highly market interventionist"
Can you please tell me where you get that info from? I know the question makes it sound like I'm trying to discredit what you're saying, but I'm not. I'd just like to see some solid statistics pinning regulation vs. free-ish market based economies. I'm still uncertain as to whether I should lean left or right when it comes to economics.
TheLurkingAtheist 1 year ago
@TheLurkingAtheist
no offense taken, socio-economic data is freely and widely available, and well sourced, check the Human Development Index, CIA World Factbook, World Bank sourced material, and depending on what specific stats your looking for there are a variety of trusted studies.
Argentina in South America (compare to freeish market Colombia), Japan in Asia (compare to China), South Africa in africa, Netherlands/Norway/Sweden in Europe, etc.
SocialistaTribalista 1 year ago
Very cool that a different way of doing things was shown instead of the same old protesting and getting nothing accomplished.
RicRagsLive 1 year ago
Well done people, well done! Politicians, as we've seen are by definition corrupt. Che is going to come out there one day and fight alongside with you and companeros and cooperatives are going to make the lives of local people better. Take it back one by one. If people unite they will be stronger than thanks and police. Unite.
raisinsunn 1 year ago
Producer Silvia Basmajian, hay a. Armenian :-))
raisinsunn 1 year ago
I was just wondering why the workers didnt just build a new factory instead of wasting time trying to take over the old one. That would have created a lot more jobs. So if this model works, why havent all the unemployed people in the US come together and build a factory and start producing widgets? Whose stopping them?
studentofmises 1 year ago
@studentofmises Are you seriously asking why unemployed people can't afford to buy millions of dollars worth of real estate and equipment?
Let me guess: Your parents are rich.
spiffy43 1 year ago
@spiffy43 PART 1 NO! my point is that these factory workers would never have their jobs if owner of the factory didn’t risk their savings to build it. This is the part that socialists don’t understand. All socialists want, is for the workers to own the factory and produce a product for a fair wage. So how do you get a bunch of strangers to build a factory from scratch so that they can work for a fair wage?
studentofmises 1 year ago
@studentofmises Socialism-versus-capitalism is such a tired argument. Why are we discussing 16th century economics versus 19th century economics? I want a 21st century economic system which, clearly, should be incredulous towards authority.
These "socialist" workers are more entrepreneurial than 90% of business people I work with. I think they're on the right track.
spiffy43 1 year ago
@spiffy43 You are right, these are hard working people. But that’s not the problem. The problem is precisely what you do not want to discuss. This is socialism vs. capitalism issue. There no better system than the free market capitalistic system, where people pursuing their own interests help better society as a whole. History does not lie. That is what the 21st century economic system should go back too.
studentofmises 1 year ago
@studentofmises Unfortunatley, we do not have a "free market capitalist system" anymore.
N172ER 1 year ago
@spiffy43 @studentofmises Guys it is not a Socialism-versus-capitalism issue. Their problem relys on globalization. For the owners it is just coins, what they took ower, though the profit they have taken from Argentina are millions.
attiland56 1 year ago
@spiffy43 part 2 If you can answer that, then you have just solved our unemployment problem. Remember these people in the documentary took (stole) the factories from the owners. This is why it is easy to be a socialist, communist, fascist ( all the same) because you don’t have to think to create anything, all you have to do is take it from others.
studentofmises 1 year ago
@studentofmises "Remember these people in the documentary took (stole)"
In this case their actions are justified as they too were stolen from in the form of unpaid wages, as noted in Part 1. Theoretically 2 wrongs shouldn't make a right, but when 1 wrong leaves the victims in such a state of financial despair, I can't blame them for resorting to what they resorted to here. Ultimately, the law acknowledged this as well.
TheLurkingAtheist 1 year ago
There is plenty in this world to satisfy every need
but there will never be enough to satisfy greed
---------
I wrote that after watching your excellent series
Arnie1Lerma 1 year ago
@Arnie1Lerma maybe they should make a pill.........of course you and I are not greedy its always the other people. Would you ever take a job that pays more than another?
studentofmises 1 year ago
@studentofmises "of course you and I are not greedy its always the other people"
There's people who strive for a modestly comfortable lifestyle, and then there's gluttony. Why try to equate the two?
"Would you ever take a job that pays more than another?"
Not if what I'm currently making is enough to support my modest means of living, and more importantly, if me accepting the other job would result in a person with many children to feed getting fired & being left without an alternative.
TheLurkingAtheist 1 year ago
Part 2 “u wouldn’t take a job that would result in a starving family without any alternative” Look I am glad that u wouldn’t but what if u had a starving family to feed and needed that job? U are assuming all things should work a certain way if it works for u, but the truth is that everything is different for everyone and u cannot lump us all in one group. Your definition of modesty is different from mine and everyone else’s.
studentofmises 1 year ago
Part 1 So if we do not live up to your standards of modesty then we fall in the gluttony category and are greedy. I was unaware that u are the one that speaks for us all and can differentiate what is and what isn’t modest.
studentofmises 1 year ago
There is plenty in this world to satisfy every need
but there will never be enough to satisfy greed
---------
I wrote that after watching your excellent series
Arnie1Lerma 1 year ago
we have to start producing things in our own country and stop buying everything from China. Fair trade ain't free
zeusvalentine 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I would happy see same some places where i have worked.
Dumb lazy greedy socialist workers run the thing by them self. It would end up bankruptcy in couple months.
Most of you commies dont understain why this worked for them.
Points are:
1. Someone in the past allready invest the plant and made it work.
2. They dont probable pay no taxes in the bussness.
3. They are skilled workers.
Btw did anyone else notice the banker got jew nose?
urpis99 2 years ago
Also, it's interesting to see the split consciousness of the worker in the occupied factory 'supporting' a presidential candidate. For those saying about IQ it has nothing to do with workers consciousness! It has everything to do with false consciousness not IQ levels, they are not the same thing! There will always have to be a class war, there is no other way. The proletariat will carry out its historical role of destroying all classes and creating a classless society.
9407113678 2 years ago
Thanks for the uplaod! Certainly relations of production have changed to a certain extent. However, how long is it before the contradictions between workers on equal pay with no bosses come up against the occupied work places without equal pay and bosses. And the new government. Also the power of the state being used against the workers who are trying to get back in their workplaces. If there was ever an argument for the dictatorship of the proletariat is this film not it?
9407113678 2 years ago
This was a flawed documentary but was still awesome, thanks.
Mark999999999 2 years ago
tell us the flaws
yanjason80 2 years ago 4
Very briefly, whilst I am at university. It could easily have mentioned Juan Perón's adminration of Mussolini, protection of Nazi war criminals and suppression of opposition instead of hinting that he was a social reformer. Secondly, it does not mention the Trot group that the main fellow dfeatured in the documentary is part of.
Mark999999999 2 years ago
I´m from Argentina, dunno what university are you attending. But you don´t know nothing about Perón, so first read something and then talk.
Romi235 2 years ago 3
And he suppressed opposition = Feitlowitz, Marguerite. A Lexicon of Terror: Argentina and the Legacies of Torture. Oxford University Press, 2002.
Mark999999999 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I'm glad to see this worked out for these workers, but to suggest this is the future for a highly developed society is wishful thinking.
Sure...In Ohio or Michigan where factories are abandoned...go for it!
Don't kid yourself and think workers can occupy a viable business in US...we have laws and a constitution.
I encourage coops...go for it!
BTW...The Shock Doctrine was a half truth rag...the same can be said about blamely Menem for all of Argentia ills.
JESS6TY 2 years ago
Excellent video series. But a creepy look into the possible future of other countries if we are not careful. It did not look like either side got overly violent which i doubt would be the case in America so we need to prevent this happening here,By waking up and admitting that it is actually happening right now. Stop living in denial Please!
Peace
glenisah 2 years ago 4
Take heed for all of you must follow the example, rid yourself Of non-producers, IMF, BANKERS, FEDRAL GOVERMENTS, or they will put you in your grave.
This video was inspiring keep up the good work.
freepress666 2 years ago 5
Thank you for posting this compelling documentary, definitely a 10. The prophetic letter given to Naomi Klein is haunting...
"We are the mirror to look into. The mistake to avoid. Argentina is the waste that remains of a globalized country. We are where the rest of the world is going."
My channel has playlists on Argentina's economic collapse, banking fraud, black ops, bioterrorism, chem trails, economy, global warming scam, masons, NWO, propaganda, vaccines, 911 and more.
hplaserjet2001 2 years ago 4
Bravo. 10/10. I will have to send this to a lot of my friends to watch.
ddrumsman549 2 years ago 3
Very good film. Inspiring. Decentralised direct democracy is the truly adaptive and thus sustainable way forward. Those workers are an example to us all. When knowledge is born conscience is awakened.
GrouchoMarxist1 2 years ago 32
that was a really good documentrey
communist9 2 years ago 3
This story is bigger then life !
Hold on Forja workers!
BokasaTzar 2 years ago
Thank you for posting this... It was not only a great documentary but it was also an assignent for class ^___^
EscaraFoxGirl 3 years ago 4
Thank you for posting this film in it's entirety! So glad to watch something inspiring with potential for replication around the world for once.
electricaura 3 years ago 28
Fantastic. Now tell me how to manage electronics HW design company like this.
Or maybe let's scrap our TV after global crisis.
krbosak 3 years ago
Thanks for sharing this great documentary
princessedu8 3 years ago 5
Thanx for the history .
When the shoe factories in NH and ME were being closed-after many generations of family skills-We the poeple needed to do the same. skills of generations are stolen by fascist corporate owners,who take the profits of the backbone of another's labor. Steal the education from the next generation and walk away with the food from the workman's table, then return to crush family loyality so the man is left with
nothing. Free Enterprise and Natural Family built the states!
PaF2BFree 3 years ago 4