We need a medicare type medical insurance for everyone in this country. Governments should insure that we have easy access to healthcare and education and work to keep us safe. We are not a free for all Anarchy.
You bring up some interesting points (though a little dogmatic) about our healthcare and how money everywhere in government is wasted.
Since you see this as a problem, you have taken to making suggestions and complaints in these comments.
So I ask you now, and charge you too, with finding a more concrete way of solving these problems. What can you do to make a real difference, beyond making just noise?
Naw, I don't feel it's so stark a condition. The biggest thing the wealthy want is less regulations - to keep things the way they are. The "way things are" now is unacceptable. There' too much social divide, too many people indentured, too many people living day-to-day, paycheck-to-paycheck.
I think it's time to give working people a break from this bullshit. "Socialsim" is a big word, and I don't think it's fair to relegate your idea of "reform" into it, as though it is a waste receptacle.
@abyssquick The wealthy want more regulation. I prevents smaller companies from competing. The most regulated markets are always dominated by a small group of people.
Yes, many kinds of regulation are used to the advantage of the wealthy. I have much personal experience with a market insistent on not being regulated - the "health food" industry. These companies make most of their profits from non-FDA regulated vitamins + supplements. They have grown during the recession.
Yet, these relatively unregulated markets are the most rife with charlatans, bullshit products, and huge price gougers. It's remarkable what people get away with in that industry.
@abyssquick They don't get away with much. Consumers are smart. They figure it out and stop the abuses faster and more intelligently than government beaurocrats do.
No, people are not smart. Why is the 'Acai Berry" a multi-billion dollar enterprise? Because the USA public buys the bullshit products and health claims.
It's actually a very cheap provincial surplus from Brazil. A weed. Very very cheap. $1 in Brazil buys what Americans pay $50-60 for.
No, the problem is that our public is nutritionally and critical thinking illiterate. Many companies rely on this consumer ignorance (they like it that way) to sell their bullshit.
So, I would like to see them regulated for the sake of public safety.
The food industry is also renowned for it's politics of being lax on quality standards through lobbying and various political gray areas of regulation. They want to be unregulated as possible, yet are clearly one of the industries in need of it, considering the shit they put in our food supply (some ingredients are deemed so unhealthy they are illegal in other nations)...
@abyssquick You don't have any experience. All of those additives are safe and have never been proven dangerous in small quantities. In new york and california. If you'd payed attention you'd know that regulations are beeing wrieten by the companies themselves. They know that making it more difficult to do business will only strengthen their monopolies.
Trans fats? High Fructose Corn syrup? Isolated glutamates? The ones linked to cardiovascular disease?
The obesity epidemic in this nation, as well as general nutritional illiteracy, is evidence enough that the food industry is being irresponsible. Yes, the public makes bad choices... but they use addictive and cheap ingredients, and THEY KNOW IT. It's good business.
If you really want to improve healthcare costs, you'd be for regulating these practices in our food industry. Less sick people.
You're a sporting chap aren't you. This is an artifice isn't it? Took me long enough to figure out. Thanks for wasting my time with your disingenuous polarity!
I concur. Everything I have said is completely unbased in reality, and is a peal to emotions and not logic. I cower and cringe obsequiously before you, a clear and perceptive intellectual colossus.
you know who would hate this, doctors, politicians, and the insurance companies, they are all in on it. does anyone know what the hell they are charging you for just for walking into an emergency room. it should be posted, each and every cost, and the attending physician who will treat you.
come on, if they want transparency, let's get so deep we see cappilaries.
I can cut this paperwork in half, have the attending doctor filled out all relevant paperwork of care provided, down to the aspirin given. He is the supervisor of the operation in question. Let's do away with all these different departments, lets bring forth a more focused atmosphere of care. No longer will a doctor be able to moonlight, he will be contractually obligated to a certain hospital.
Why would Doctors support a Bill that taxes them, > $200,000? They have seen enough abuse by the Insurance Companies against their patients: deny treatments, changing drug formulary, drop coverage, preexisting condition exclusion, & Medicare drug GAP for Senior. Dont ever get sick or in an accident, you will be bankrupted & screwed by Insurance.
UncommonThinker: Do you check under your bed every night for the evil communists and socialists? They hide down there with the boogie man and their all out to get ya.
these costs are normal for a company providing typical goods and services. Spending 60% of your money on marketing is not unusual. If you want to get rid of these costs you either have to make insurance non-prophet or government run.
So if the health care system in european countries is sooo horrible, why do they have a higher life expectancy than the US. Most studies I've seen rank the US quite low, far behind most of europe and canada.
Morons. We don't have 'private' health care. Govt already pays for 60% of health care in this country. The states and feds regulate both payers and providers in very significant ways, so this argument is flawed in it's foundation. How can all you supposedly 'informed' people not know this?
And why are americans overly dependent of inefficient insurance companies paid for on our behalf by employers. Do employers offer full coverage auto insurance which also covers oil changes? Most of us have have cars. Our government uses the tax system to herd us into these programs which are driving costs up. That's the problem.
Because of inflated medical costs, due to hospital billing practices. Which is in turn due to for-profit status of most healthcare. The only reason employers need to cover part of it is because the system is for-profit. A $1,500 at-cost operation becomes a $50,000 bankruptcy. That's why.
@abyssquick The government pays for most of health care already. Every aspect of the auto industry is for profit. Which don't employers pay for that. You're not making any sense. I earned my insurance coverage. Just like I earned the rest of my compensation.
And what do you pay for this coverage that you've "erned" and what happens when you get in an accident and can no longer work? Is your coverage going to cover you then or do you not think that far ahead?
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@Jason442200 I also have a savings account and short term liability. And I haven't screwed my family over or anything so they'd let me move in with them if I was truly in need.
So instead of paying into a universal system to help you out when you need it, you'd rather burden your family with the extra costs? Thats pretty messed up. I'm sure your family doesn't need that kind of burden
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@Jason442200 And con artists are less likely to screw over my family. And stupid family decisions are unlikely to bankrupt the health care system for everyone elso as well. Communism always delivers inferiority. I don't want to burden my family. Which is why I saved my own damn money.
That's great you have insurance. Meanwhile many many people have no access to insurance or to medicaid, and are losing their house, business, sanity.
It's all such a great political jousting match for some. I am inclined to suggest that you live in an insulation of youthful inexperience. I don't understand it. You speak like I'm taking something from you, just for existing.
I'm not even crying "discrimination" - I just think people aren't aware.
The administrative costs associated with the US health-care system system along with the legal framework lead to the excessive inefficiencies in the system. A system should be judged by its results, and it does not appear that the marginal results merit the cost.
When firms put more money into marketing & lobbying versus research & development the system itself is flawed. You do not have the creative destruction necessary for capitalism but a form of rent seeking.
@TurboDally: So you'd rather pay through your nose to make sure that only you are covered than to collectively contribute so that everyone is covered? That sir is immoral.
It seems that ones with fully covered health care don't like to think ahead. What happens if for some reason you loose your coverage? You mean to tell me that if you lost your coverage somehow in the future you would be more than happy to fend for yourself rather than have your country help you out?That makes no sense to me
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@Jason442200 It makes plenty of sense when you work hard and save wisely. You are simply very ignorant about insurance and costs. Health care would be cheaper if insurance was banned and people simply saved for there own health care needs.
Mabey in a perfect world, but what happens when you get robbed? Or you havn't saved up enough? or you loose your job? Should we all have to work hard and save money to pay for the police to come help you in an emergency? Your idea still only covers the higher working class, not every one.
I am ignorant towards american health care cost because I don't live in the sates. As I stated earlier, here in Canada I pay $38 a month for full coverage whether I need it or not? How is that wrong?
Mabey if I lived in the States. Last time I called the cops in my town they were at my door in less then 10 min. And the time before that when my truck got broken into, they had a suspect in 30 min and had him arrested within 2 days.
@Jason442200 Which is exactly my point. They didn't stop anything. The came and did the easiest part of the job. Figuring out who did it. And ten minutes is plenty of time to kill someone.
@DeletedDelusion In those rare circumstances it is awesome to live in the most charitable nation in the world. History has proven that communities always band together to health their neighbors. And without insurance companies we'd have more money to give.
In what world do you think people would give their money at their discretion? Not the present one. That's an argument from idealistic fancy.
This sort of charitable ideal world doesn't exist right now. We have to work with what we have - we can't fundamentally change our entire social structure - that would take a long time. What's happening right here, right now is of pertinence.
No. I would prefer that the wealthy pay, not the commonfolk. The divide has grown too large. The wealthy have abused working people too much, abused them through scarcity of jobs, through coercion, escalation, and many other practices to get more out of people for less.
It is they who should pay, not the average American.
@abyssquick 99 middle class people with guns for every one guy. Yeah, its the rich guy with all the power. You realize only 10% of multi-millionaires inherit their money. The rest earn it. Not the mention the net worth of rich people has been plummeting like a rock.
The point being the distribution of wealth. There's too much of it in too small an area. Losing money won't kill a wealthy person.Losing healthcare, losing a house, losing a job - all of this has far more net impact on the capability of a person to survive. There's a reason other nations don't allow overly abundant wealth - because it results in the social oppression of an ogliarchy. The purpose of America being founded as a "Republic" is to prevent such extremes. It has happened nonetheless.
@abyssquick The states tax the rich more than any other nation. the EU is required to have a 15% sales tax or more to fund their government. High taxes on the rich has always resulted in economic depression the world over.
Wealthy taxes used to be much higher than they are today. So, complaints of "the government alway being in their pocket" is based on lack of perspective to how "bad" taxation was.
I do not consider the USA one of the wealthy-taxing nations. We are clearly allowing the profuse accumulation of wealth in small areas (especially over the last 30 years).
The social divide is enormous. Working people have no savings, and are in fact indentured by loans for even the most basic living necessities.
Some people cannot help themselves, the system carries insurmountable momentum. Do you have any idea how stressful these situations can be, for those with health conditions? Stress is a huge risk factor for anyone with a health condition. It's easy to discuss from the outside, while not tangled in a precarious predicament yourself. It's a bit backwards to expect the same action from everyone.
What's the point of having a "society" if not to mutually increase each others' quality of living?
Check out constitution - our society doesn't exist to mutually increase each other's quality of living - whatever that even means. Why don't you move to someplace where they have that kind of society instead of trying to ruin this one?
No, read the constitution (and this goes even further), what a "Republic" is (see: Plato's Republic) & the philosophical basis behind it. In the most basic sense, the aim of creating a society (yes, even a Republic) is to increase each others' quality of life. It is a mutual effort. This is a basic philosophical conception.
How am I ruining your society? I am as American as you. My ancestors are pilgrims & native. Do not seek arrogate that identity for yourself, I take great offense to that.
This is pointless. That's a simplistic caricature, an inaccurate representation of a rather complex problem. There are many courses of action, to solve it. It's a bit condescending to whittle it down to such an obtuse analogy.
This charitable idealistic world does not presently exist. And if it does, it is only with stipulation. How does this rhetoric help anyone right now? Or do we have to wait for this nation of charity to arrive first?
@abyssquick Again, UHC is charity! And its riddled with abuse and fraud and destroys any incentive to innovate and treat. Hows that government charity doing in greece?
Of course people in the USA will say "we have the best care" "the rest of the world sucks" (to whittle down to an obtuse analogy :)
It's all peripheral to what I've been attempting to say. I'm not asking for entitlement, I'm asking for fair access. I don't even have that. I receive financial ruin, sloppy care. The only reason being a congenital condition.
Ive been through bureaucracy a dozen times with the help of lawyers, congressmen, senators. There is no recourse for people in my position.
But what the constitution does is create a very limited sphere of government action, and asserts the primacy of our natural rights. No place in the document does it assert the rights of 'society' as superior to individual rights. My point in asking you to go elsewhere is that you have a conception of the relationship between govt and its citizens that isn't contemplated by our constitution. Other countries have such constitutions - France for example. Liberte, fraternite and egalite.
And believe me, I would emigrate, if it is possible. Do you understand it is impossible to immigrate if you are not well-off financially?
Saying "go somewhere else" is a blunt non-answer, a dismissive "swept under the carpet" non-argument. I can't "just leave" as people eloquently put it. Other nations have such thick, convoluted bureaucracy to prevent it. Most (all that have good healthcare) require substantial savings to even attempt.
"Sometimes" - more like "most of the time" I would say. A person with any sort of medial device will inevitably be forced to file bankruptcy. They can't even get insurance, especially if young. They have NO options really. That's the whole problem - social discrimination via insurance deprivation. Hospitals ransack these people, arrogate their future. I know because I'm one of them.
There are so many treatable diseases. Expensive to treat, yes, but quite treatable. The system is the problem.
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@abyssquick Its called medicaid. There are millions of people on it right now who can't afford health insurance or to pay out of pocket. You're just leing.
No, you cannot get on medicaid unless you are old or disabled. There are many, many people who do not fit into these parameters. Just because a person has a medical condition, or medical device does not mean they are "disabled."
I don't think you have any experience with the system.
Medicaid is run by the state. Many states set parameters depending on their demographic. My state happens to be one which excludes people like myself. You are perhaps fortunate to live somewhere this isn't the case. Still, medicaid access should not dictate where a person lives. That's totally backwards.
25% of the residents of NYC are on medicaid - many poor people are eligible for it. You simply are ignorant of how medicaid works. Medicare is provides for the old and disabled (if they have participated in the program)(, and medicaid pays for the gap if their too poor to make up for it themselves. There are those who've never paid into SS who don't qualify and only are eligible for medicaid.
Not all states work the way NY does. Parameters are set by the individual state. They can't do anything about your finances if you've had insurance in the past 6 months. It's all technicalities that perpetually exclude people like me.
Yes, let's just indenture people with congenital conditions who need treatment. Because having their condition isn't bad enough, let's make them pay for it too - se them back a notch. This whole line of thinking is offensive to people who require treatment.
You would have them simply "pay" for these things? Just a simple matter of "saving their money" is it? No. One cannot help how they are born. It's not "entitlement" ask for a level financial playing field, the same as anyone else.
What people need to get into their thick skulls is that economic efficiency means something else entirely than the coloquial term efficient. In economics efficiency means the way that makes corporations squeeze the most money out of you while giving you the least service as possible in return. In that meaning private health care is most efficient.
Blows my mind why americans hold on to their privatized health care system so tight. I think it must be the fear of change or their me me me atitude that the rest of the world in oh so familiar with, "as long as I'm covered I don't care about anyone else. It's the american way" I really don't get it.
It sucks for those of us who can't get insurance - such as just about any young person with a congenital condition. Thus, we're saddled with huge bills - forced to pay through the nose (i.e. be wealthy) or file bankruptcy. Forget about business or home-ownership.
Yes, the people who don't want systemic change have not suffered it's pitfalls. Unfairly, the media grants them a loud voice. They think it's all "entitlement" or other socially prejudiced rick-folk rhetoric.
Oh I hear ya, I was talking to an american the other day and he was telling me his brother has to pay about $800 a month on health insurance for his family, I almost choked to death. $800!?!?! Thats insaine and then from what I hear there's even a chance that they can deny what ever claim is made. That kind of mentality is scary as shit. I pay $38 a month (because I can afford it) and I know I will ALWAYS get treatment no matter what.
$38 US? That's less than my &%#@ing cell phone bill! I pay $180/mo for single coverage with a $2,500.00 annual deductible. I have zero pre-existing conditions.
no no, thats $38 canadian, so more like $39.25 US. If I were in a higher tax bracket, say over $100,000 a year it would go up a bit and if I were in a lower income level it would be free. We have no deductable, you just go into the hospital, give them your care card # and get treated. No bill, no money, no paper work.
That may be, but they could institute income based co-pays to help keep costs down. I don't mind a $25-35 co-pay. It might keep the helicopter-parents out of the office when their 'lawn-dart target' gets a scraped elbow.
The wealthy exploit the pride of the hard-working. "Life is though, tough shit" - "Be thankful for you job," - "don't rock the boat," etc. Seeding this rhetoric they have swindled vast areas of the poor into this "be happy in your hovel" attitude we often hear.
The 'rich' ought to be thankful we allow their wealth. Most nations do not, they redistribute it to prevent vast social divides which occur in an Ogliarchy.
The rich have abused their workhorses. It's time they pull their own cart.
@abyssquick 100% in agreement. If the rich don't want their wealth taken away, they should try a little harder not to make it so easy to hate them for the unjust system they perpetuate. Whats so amazing is that despite that fact that middle class has been getting more and more fucked, so many refuse to do anything about it.
The "rich" are often as socially illiterate as the general public (for different reasons), having most often grown up insulated in a wealthy sector of society.
They think that we workers are "ungrateful" "whiners" and "begrudging their success" and whatnot. They hate unions, and seed anti-union rhetoric (please, remind us commonfolk again why unions are a bad idea...?). There is a proximity blindness. I've met some who flat out deny we're in a recession, because it hasn't affected them.
well unions are bad because they have been corrupted as bad as the corporations. the basic idea yea unions are good in this capitalistic society because it was a way to fight the bastards but now the heads are just as greedy and worthless as the ones they are suppose to be protecting us from. the workers are still getting screwed just by both sides now.
Yes, but a "union" is merely by definition a collection of people who band together with the common goal of improving their circumstances. This in itself I would not object to - I consider the modern form of "unions" as another matter. I don't think the conception itself is without merit. Perhaps some modern incarnations of it have gone too far.
No, they're getting screwed by one side: the ruling capitalist class. The bureaucrats running the unions are simply class collaborationists who are tied by a thousand strings to the Demorats, a capitalist party.
The problem with unions is that they don't have a socialist outlook. That problem can be corrected.
isnt that what i just said that even thou the idea of unions is good to help the workers in this capitalistic society they have turned into nothing more than another corporation trying to squeeze every dime they can for themselves by screwing the people paying them and the workers they are suppose to be helping. hence why i said now the workers are getting screwed from both sides now. just because we can change unions for the better doesnt mean that arent bad
I suppose it is - forgive the impersonalness of the internet, it is difficult mode of adequate human communication.
As congest suggests 'capitalism' has the capacity to actually go against the whole purpose of human society. 'Society' is very popular among humans working together we can all improve our living circumstances mutually. Capitalism, which encourages greed while deferring it at the same time, can indeed pull it the other way.
well absolutely even thou capitalism has given us many great things i believe we are at a point where we can create a new form that works way better. now what that system is i can only come up with ideas. but what i do know is the system america has now is definitely not the best we can come up with.
i do know no matter what system we can come up with if its allowed corruption will ruin it.
"We can do better" is always a good attitude. The intent of the USA's founding fathers in implementing a "republic" was to prevent oppressive momentum of both Ogliarchy (wealthy-ruled) and Democracy (majority ruled). "Republic" (as in Plato's Republic) is a "middle road" to keep the extremes at bay.
Presently the former 'Republic" has fallen into an Ogliarchy, due to the pressure of overrun Capitalism.
That is an overview of how I see it presently, but there's always more detail to consider.
@abyssquick You are 100% correct...However, you left out the growing Theocracy in America!
The Republican Party & the wealthy use religion to get folks to vote against their own economic well being and against the basic upkeep of our great nation.
Dark Times are coming if we do not reverse course!
i do a lot of arguing with creationist and fundies on the internet and i see the same tactics being used by the republicans. nothing but a bunch of lies and misrepresentation of facts. quote mining like crazy when its just not a blatant refusal to acknowledge facts.
There is an undercurrent of Theocracy, seeding illogical / irrational decisions. People's cherished beliefs are being exploited politically.
Part of it is due to general social / scientific illiteracy (there are many shills on the airwaves actively breaking people's trust in academia). Another part of it is the very fact of corporate-owned airwaves (what you watch as "news" is the face of a corporation).
Public discussion is saturated with media-perpetuated ideas / terms - a wide influence.
one of the biggest problems with politics today is scientifically literate people no longer go into politics. its left for people who just want money and another term.
thou it wouldnt solve everything by any means, term limits would be a great step towards righting the path this country has gone down.
@Nibielari A fine mix of Capitalism & socialism is what we have...We are currently to heavy of the capitalist side! We should not be profiting off the health of human being nor should we be profiting off the Judicial & criminal system like we are!
It boils down to the American public uncritically absorbing about a hundred years of unceasing anti-communist propaganda. The American public is so politically illiterate that large sections of them think a corporate whore like Obama is a socialist!
Yeah, Obama is caving to the lobbies. The public is incapable of perceiving social and political subtlety.
We're an presently Ogliarchy, going by observation. The USA was born as an experimental Republic (see Plato). Yet, we have a good portion that think we're a democracy.
We also have a good portion that think s "republic" has something to do with "republican" because one word contains the other.....
They've been lied to as it's a sin to have a NHS. You're not taking care of yourself. You're forcing someone else to do it for you. America = sheep. We say we have our own mind but that is a lie too. Our minds belong to whom ever they give it to. Sad really. This is the last days for America.
@Jason442200 What the hell are you talking about Jason. America bailed out the soviet union. We bailed out mexico, we're giving more aid to haiti than any other coutry, america is the single largest charitable nation both per person and as a whole. What kind of communist hate mongering is this.
@UncommonThinker: Are you on glue? what the hell else would the cops do in that case? Do you expect them to see the future and swoop in and stop a robbery before it happened? So they should have anticipated that someone was going to break into my house while I'm not there and rob me? Man would I love to live in your little dream world. The cops did exactally what they should.....I called in a crime and they responded.
Man, put down the crack pipe and come back to reality.
@Jason442200 And there is you. You defend your home. Which is the number one deterent of crime. You're the one claiming the government paid police are the reason you don't get robbed every day.
No, I wasn't claiming that at all. Buddy, put down the crack pipe and go back to school.
And where do you get the idea that me defending my home is the main deterant of crime? Obviosly the dude who broke into my truck wasn't concerned about what I would do and if it wasn't for the cops he would've gotten away with it.
@UncommonThinker: You think fire dept don't do anything any more? Wow, you need to wake the hell up and leave mommy and daddy's house. And as far as the $20 bill thing goes, it probably wouldn't go missing for a while in my town, hense why most people don't lock their homes here.
Thats absolute CRAP. Don't throw out numbers like 99% when you have no idea what your talking about. I'm responsible but don't own a house, instead I own a business but I am always aware that shit happens and sometimes its out of our control. To say that anyone who doesn't make lots of money and is not resposible don't deserve proper health care is disgusting. You live in a first world country but think and act like your in a third world country.
So if your america is providing soooo much to other countries why can't america provide for it's own people? Why are there so many americans without health insurance or having to rack up insaine doctor bills?
@Jason442200 Because we're a hard working people and don't expect charity to cover what we ourselves are capable of providing. If you really need help then you can suffer the inconvenience of actually asking the person whose paying. Your neighbor. Instead of a mindless beaurocrat who gets paid to pass out checks.
Yes, it sure is nice to work and to provide for your self, I am actually self employed and running my own company but one thing I have learned is that......shit happens. And that is what universal health care is about (in my opinion) Sure, you might be fully covered but shit happens to everyone. So would you consider the fire dept a charity? You pay into it but how many times have you had to call them?
Universal Healthcare Care is completely pro- small-business. We would in fact see a proliferation of small-time entrepeneurs. Depending on how it is executed, it could be a great thing to do for our economy.
@abyssquick That's just a talking point. UHC would not benefit businesses. If it did then the US wouldn't be the richest nation in the world with the highest per capita incomes.
@Jason442200 Insurance is the shit happens. So is moving in with a family member. The reason we don't have as much "shit happens" is because we're expected to plan for it. And just like the police, the fire department doesn't do much of anything anymore. Houses are more flame resistant than ever. And unlike health care, I'm not worried about destroying fire innovation just because my city counsel pays for fire truck.
The development of healthcare technology takes place at large hospitals and universities...
For people with chronic conditions "shit is happening" always. That's why making them buy insurance is completely inappropriate - it's financial discrimination. It is favoring people with money, and ousting those without. One's financial status might determine what quality of care they receive. Hospitals that are for profit only do care as required legally. Then they broom you out the door and bill you.
@abyssquick Large hospitals are "for profit" and "Universities rely on charitable donations." That's just another example of how industry and charity work excellently with one another. And medical companies still invent more medical products and innovation than another. You realize the united states has the highest survival rates for most major diseases. That's because anything free must also be arbitrarily rationed to reduce costs.
No, I don't know where you get that US statistic. Cardiovascular disease is the most prominent western chronic ailment - and France has the highest quality care, and best longevity associated with it. Followed by Italy, I as remember. It is this same way for most major diseases.
I realize there are lots of claims like this out there, but I'm not speaking from "anti-USA" stance. I'm just trying to understand all these points of view here.
@abyssquick Its easy to win an argument if you lie. Italy is nearly bankrupt. And France recently killed off many of their government nursing residents in the heat wave of 2003. 14,000 senior citizens died in 2003 of neglect in nursing homes. Quality in those hospitals is low and uncomfortable compared to our system.
@abyssquick That WHO study was done in 2000 and they stated the united states was the highest in quality. You should really read the study. And its criticisms. They ranked Columbia next to us. Because when I think of Columbia, I think of drug lords and american quality health care.
@abyssquick You're just a compulsive liar then. 25% of the rankings we're for equality. Not quality. I bet you'd say cuba has good health care as well.
@abyssquick Cuba didn't rank very far behind us either in that WHO study. Equality over quality. did you look up the 14,000 senior citizen deaths in France in 2003?
The medeterranean heat waves are a climate issue. There's drought and desertification going on in that area. The same is happening in Australia, too. I fail to see how the two are necessarily connected. You would have to delineate causation specifically to what you say. People die from climate catastrophes every year, all over the world.
@abyssquick That doesn't happen in the united states. We have good health care. And when your in a hospital and die of heat exhaustion. It is a health care problem.
Rationalizing is for people in the wrong, who lie to themselves.
You however seem to have an inaccurate (or politically / media influenced) concept of what I'm trying to say. You use inaccurate analogies, ask questions trying to pidgeonhole my response - to which you have a pre-form rebuttal. I'm just sharing my experiences with US healthcare & how I have come to think based on them. That's all.
I'm sorry. People like me exist. We're just as American (at least, we speak the same language).
You can't just subjugate the whole discussion, as though you are somehow "victorious" by pigeonholing people into terms like "liar" and "communist" - such obtuse distinctions show a clear lack of perceptive capacity.
@abyssquick Equality is the only standard for which Europe and canada succeeds in health care. The United states wins in quality and innovation hands down. We're richer and harder working. Because society demands it. My family, who are my safety net, demands it.
It's an overabundance of yang. some would call it hard-headed. Obviously we, as Americans, value the qualities common to ourselves, in the scenarios and places familiar to us.
However, the trademark of a worldly, rational mind is the ability to exist outside this conditioned province. Physicially, and intellectually.
It's one thing to have interest and some in where you come from. It's another to allow the mind to be run by it. (Wear the shoe only if/as you see fit.)
@abyssquick So basically I'm righ but I shouldn't judge. Perhaps equality is better than quality. Just don't force it on me. Find your own socialist paradice. history has shown that socialists don't have much long term compassion for net takers of society.
I don't think it is fair to judge. Every scenario is different. We have a general idea of how societies function, but the details can change the course years down the road.
Understand that I have no choice but to seek a "socialist paradise" as I must fight for my equality. I am discriminated against by this system. So it's not really a choice for me. Understand that. I have little future unless the USA changes it's policies for people like me.
Education and constant vigilance is the key. But I would suggest that ignoring political paradigms is probably the best benefit.
Ideas from one place may be applied to another, with care. We implement socialism already for much of our infrastructure. so, it's not a foreign concept really.
Then why is it that every time I go down to the US I'm generally out weighed by atleast 100lbs? Most americans I meet in my travels are lazy as shit not to mention fat as hell. To say that america is harder, smarter and better than anyone else is a statement from someone who has never left home. I love my country Canada but I deffentally realize that there are counrties ahead of us in various industries.
And furthur more, if the US is so great, why are you in the back pocket of China?
We are scientifically, nutritionally, and often socially illiterate. I speak as one of them. A denizen of this increasingly listless and lethargic land.
@abyssquick And our primary weaknesses are government control and manipulation. The government has done socialism worse than any other country. Which is why we have the worst school system. Thank goodness we have a good free market culture. And Canada is a lot more free market that the US right now. Which is why they can afford the negative affects of government control of health insurance.
How exactly does government hamper and manipulate us out of social and financial prosperity?
I think the power rests with the people. A country is a collection many individual minds, and as such, a reflection of them. People vote for those most like themselves, do they not?
SO, if we as people can do the thinking, the communicating, we can accomplish anything.
The government IS people. An extension of them. The psyche of the nation of the must change if we expect the government to change.
@abyssquick Towards limited government and personal freedom. Because as a voter I'm only one in 300 million people. But as a worker and consume, I'm 100% responsible so I have every incentive to get it right!
Yes, you are small in number, but our minds are distinctly American, a reflection of American culture.
We're customers of the private sector. We're citizens of the public sector. Capitalism has smudged tho two together.
What I fear about deregulation is that it benefits those with wealth - it allows the extrapolation into new areas, and creates a financially defensive culture.
Capitalism = "let's make more for less" (exploit) - If we pursue this we have to be diligent in it's supervision.
We need a medicare type medical insurance for everyone in this country. Governments should insure that we have easy access to healthcare and education and work to keep us safe. We are not a free for all Anarchy.
Lupitamihita 1 year ago
45% wasted money? Just wait till the government gets a hold of health care, then it will be more like 75% wasted money.
alvincay100 1 year ago
This woman's voice is very annoying.
BizWiz2000 1 year ago
The public believes what they are told in advertisments. I also have a scratch I cant reach. Damnit.
SouthernWhiteTrash 1 year ago
Americans are stupid
marniespeaks 1 year ago
Some of us try not to be. Sorry about the others.
abyssquick 1 year ago
not your fault - you're out numbered
marniespeaks 1 year ago
geeks have less sex.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@pizzaboyserious Hmm, Republicans under "tort reform" want to defang the False Claims Act, which is what is already in place to fight such abuse...
Robfenix 1 year ago
@pizzaboyserious
You bring up some interesting points (though a little dogmatic) about our healthcare and how money everywhere in government is wasted.
Since you see this as a problem, you have taken to making suggestions and complaints in these comments.
So I ask you now, and charge you too, with finding a more concrete way of solving these problems. What can you do to make a real difference, beyond making just noise?
crowdeg 1 year ago 2
Naw, I don't feel it's so stark a condition. The biggest thing the wealthy want is less regulations - to keep things the way they are. The "way things are" now is unacceptable. There' too much social divide, too many people indentured, too many people living day-to-day, paycheck-to-paycheck.
I think it's time to give working people a break from this bullshit. "Socialsim" is a big word, and I don't think it's fair to relegate your idea of "reform" into it, as though it is a waste receptacle.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick The wealthy want more regulation. I prevents smaller companies from competing. The most regulated markets are always dominated by a small group of people.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Yes, many kinds of regulation are used to the advantage of the wealthy. I have much personal experience with a market insistent on not being regulated - the "health food" industry. These companies make most of their profits from non-FDA regulated vitamins + supplements. They have grown during the recession.
Yet, these relatively unregulated markets are the most rife with charlatans, bullshit products, and huge price gougers. It's remarkable what people get away with in that industry.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick They don't get away with much. Consumers are smart. They figure it out and stop the abuses faster and more intelligently than government beaurocrats do.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
No experience?
No, people are not smart. Why is the 'Acai Berry" a multi-billion dollar enterprise? Because the USA public buys the bullshit products and health claims.
It's actually a very cheap provincial surplus from Brazil. A weed. Very very cheap. $1 in Brazil buys what Americans pay $50-60 for.
No, the problem is that our public is nutritionally and critical thinking illiterate. Many companies rely on this consumer ignorance (they like it that way) to sell their bullshit.
abyssquick 1 year ago
People need protecting from their own ignorance. That's what regulation is for - because people can't know everything about everything.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick Totalitarian dictators (and their liberal brethren) rarely protect anyone.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
There are illogical extremes on both side of the political coin.
abyssquick 1 year ago
So, I would like to see them regulated for the sake of public safety.
The food industry is also renowned for it's politics of being lax on quality standards through lobbying and various political gray areas of regulation. They want to be unregulated as possible, yet are clearly one of the industries in need of it, considering the shit they put in our food supply (some ingredients are deemed so unhealthy they are illegal in other nations)...
In my experience, greed favors deregulation.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick You don't have any experience. All of those additives are safe and have never been proven dangerous in small quantities. In new york and california. If you'd payed attention you'd know that regulations are beeing wrieten by the companies themselves. They know that making it more difficult to do business will only strengthen their monopolies.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Trans fats? High Fructose Corn syrup? Isolated glutamates? The ones linked to cardiovascular disease?
The obesity epidemic in this nation, as well as general nutritional illiteracy, is evidence enough that the food industry is being irresponsible. Yes, the public makes bad choices... but they use addictive and cheap ingredients, and THEY KNOW IT. It's good business.
If you really want to improve healthcare costs, you'd be for regulating these practices in our food industry. Less sick people.
abyssquick 1 year ago
You're a sporting chap aren't you. This is an artifice isn't it? Took me long enough to figure out. Thanks for wasting my time with your disingenuous polarity!
abyssquick 1 year ago
I feel like such an idiot. You're just some twat arguing for fun. Not actually interested in what you're saying. You're a troll and a sportsman.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick You haven't said anything intelligent this entire time. Just stupid sentiment without any basis in reality.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
I concur. Everything I have said is completely unbased in reality, and is a peal to emotions and not logic. I cower and cringe obsequiously before you, a clear and perceptive intellectual colossus.
abyssquick 1 year ago
It cost over 1.8 million dollars to fully vaccinate a 1000 children
DrMDK
drmdk 1 year ago
Money makes the world go around.
mrmaciejm 1 year ago
Love the Lipitor commercial on this video page.
thetimman00 1 year ago
you know who would hate this, doctors, politicians, and the insurance companies, they are all in on it. does anyone know what the hell they are charging you for just for walking into an emergency room. it should be posted, each and every cost, and the attending physician who will treat you.
come on, if they want transparency, let's get so deep we see cappilaries.
jvforever72 1 year ago
I can cut this paperwork in half, have the attending doctor filled out all relevant paperwork of care provided, down to the aspirin given. He is the supervisor of the operation in question. Let's do away with all these different departments, lets bring forth a more focused atmosphere of care. No longer will a doctor be able to moonlight, he will be contractually obligated to a certain hospital.
jvforever72 1 year ago
AMA and ANA (DOCTORS & NURSES) support the Bill.
4Profit Insurance companies are against the Bill.
Why would Doctors support a Bill that taxes them, > $200,000? They have seen enough abuse by the Insurance Companies against their patients: deny treatments, changing drug formulary, drop coverage, preexisting condition exclusion, & Medicare drug GAP for Senior. Dont ever get sick or in an accident, you will be bankrupted & screwed by Insurance.
I will go with AMA on Health Care Reform.
noformstyle 1 year ago 4
UncommonThinker: Do you check under your bed every night for the evil communists and socialists? They hide down there with the boogie man and their all out to get ya.
Jason442200 1 year ago
@Jason442200 Yeah, between medicare and the patriot act, communism is a threat in america.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
these costs are normal for a company providing typical goods and services. Spending 60% of your money on marketing is not unusual. If you want to get rid of these costs you either have to make insurance non-prophet or government run.
ndyt 1 year ago
So if the health care system in european countries is sooo horrible, why do they have a higher life expectancy than the US. Most studies I've seen rank the US quite low, far behind most of europe and canada.
Jason442200 1 year ago 2
@Jason442200 Violent crime. We have more murders per capita. Your average gang member dies at the ripe old age of 25. That hurts our average.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Great, your guns against exploit do work greatly against violent crime!
And no, when you gang member die at 25 , he is not included in the stat about prostate cancer survivor!
moestietabarnak 1 year ago
Morons. We don't have 'private' health care. Govt already pays for 60% of health care in this country. The states and feds regulate both payers and providers in very significant ways, so this argument is flawed in it's foundation. How can all you supposedly 'informed' people not know this?
glennd7962 1 year ago
And you think that somehow the government will have less waste and less paperwork. Right...
purplecharger88 1 year ago
And why are americans overly dependent of inefficient insurance companies paid for on our behalf by employers. Do employers offer full coverage auto insurance which also covers oil changes? Most of us have have cars. Our government uses the tax system to herd us into these programs which are driving costs up. That's the problem.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Because of inflated medical costs, due to hospital billing practices. Which is in turn due to for-profit status of most healthcare. The only reason employers need to cover part of it is because the system is for-profit. A $1,500 at-cost operation becomes a $50,000 bankruptcy. That's why.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick The government pays for most of health care already. Every aspect of the auto industry is for profit. Which don't employers pay for that. You're not making any sense. I earned my insurance coverage. Just like I earned the rest of my compensation.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
And what do you pay for this coverage that you've "erned" and what happens when you get in an accident and can no longer work? Is your coverage going to cover you then or do you not think that far ahead?
Jason442200 1 year ago
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@Jason442200 I also have a savings account and short term liability. And I haven't screwed my family over or anything so they'd let me move in with them if I was truly in need.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
So instead of paying into a universal system to help you out when you need it, you'd rather burden your family with the extra costs? Thats pretty messed up. I'm sure your family doesn't need that kind of burden
Jason442200 1 year ago 2
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@Jason442200 And con artists are less likely to screw over my family. And stupid family decisions are unlikely to bankrupt the health care system for everyone elso as well. Communism always delivers inferiority. I don't want to burden my family. Which is why I saved my own damn money.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
@UncommonThinker: What are you babling about?
Of course you don't want to burden your family, so why would you say that they would have to help you if you lost your insurance or savings?
As for the rest of your comment, I have no idea what your trying to say, how bout some sentance structure?
Jason442200 1 year ago
That's great you have insurance. Meanwhile many many people have no access to insurance or to medicaid, and are losing their house, business, sanity.
It's all such a great political jousting match for some. I am inclined to suggest that you live in an insulation of youthful inexperience. I don't understand it. You speak like I'm taking something from you, just for existing.
I'm not even crying "discrimination" - I just think people aren't aware.
abyssquick 1 year ago 3
what is this lady on?
rugs729 1 year ago
The administrative costs associated with the US health-care system system along with the legal framework lead to the excessive inefficiencies in the system. A system should be judged by its results, and it does not appear that the marginal results merit the cost.
When firms put more money into marketing & lobbying versus research & development the system itself is flawed. You do not have the creative destruction necessary for capitalism but a form of rent seeking.
QuasistellarQuark 1 year ago
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Its either socialism or capitalism, there's no other possibility!!!
I should not be forced to pay extra tax money for other people to have healthcare, it's immoral!
TurboDally 1 year ago
@TurboDally: So you'd rather pay through your nose to make sure that only you are covered than to collectively contribute so that everyone is covered? That sir is immoral.
It seems that ones with fully covered health care don't like to think ahead. What happens if for some reason you loose your coverage? You mean to tell me that if you lost your coverage somehow in the future you would be more than happy to fend for yourself rather than have your country help you out?That makes no sense to me
Jason442200 1 year ago 4
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@Jason442200 It makes plenty of sense when you work hard and save wisely. You are simply very ignorant about insurance and costs. Health care would be cheaper if insurance was banned and people simply saved for there own health care needs.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Mabey in a perfect world, but what happens when you get robbed? Or you havn't saved up enough? or you loose your job? Should we all have to work hard and save money to pay for the police to come help you in an emergency? Your idea still only covers the higher working class, not every one.
I am ignorant towards american health care cost because I don't live in the sates. As I stated earlier, here in Canada I pay $38 a month for full coverage whether I need it or not? How is that wrong?
Jason442200 1 year ago 4
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@Jason442200 You should by a gun. The police will only show up in time to hose your corpse off the side walk.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Mabey if I lived in the States. Last time I called the cops in my town they were at my door in less then 10 min. And the time before that when my truck got broken into, they had a suspect in 30 min and had him arrested within 2 days.
Jason442200 1 year ago
@Jason442200 Which is exactly my point. They didn't stop anything. The came and did the easiest part of the job. Figuring out who did it. And ten minutes is plenty of time to kill someone.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
If somebody has a pre-existing condition or children with health issues they sometimes can't earn enough money to pay their bills in the first place.
Individual saving is not really an option unless you want a lot of people, especially children, to die from treatable desease.
DeletedDelusion 1 year ago
@DeletedDelusion In those rare circumstances it is awesome to live in the most charitable nation in the world. History has proven that communities always band together to health their neighbors. And without insurance companies we'd have more money to give.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
In what world do you think people would give their money at their discretion? Not the present one. That's an argument from idealistic fancy.
This sort of charitable ideal world doesn't exist right now. We have to work with what we have - we can't fundamentally change our entire social structure - that would take a long time. What's happening right here, right now is of pertinence.
abyssquick 1 year ago
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@abyssquick Then you've already lost because that's exactly what you're asking people to do through the government. Charity.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
No. I would prefer that the wealthy pay, not the commonfolk. The divide has grown too large. The wealthy have abused working people too much, abused them through scarcity of jobs, through coercion, escalation, and many other practices to get more out of people for less.
It is they who should pay, not the average American.
abyssquick 1 year ago 2
@abyssquick 99 middle class people with guns for every one guy. Yeah, its the rich guy with all the power. You realize only 10% of multi-millionaires inherit their money. The rest earn it. Not the mention the net worth of rich people has been plummeting like a rock.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
The point being the distribution of wealth. There's too much of it in too small an area. Losing money won't kill a wealthy person.Losing healthcare, losing a house, losing a job - all of this has far more net impact on the capability of a person to survive. There's a reason other nations don't allow overly abundant wealth - because it results in the social oppression of an ogliarchy. The purpose of America being founded as a "Republic" is to prevent such extremes. It has happened nonetheless.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick The states tax the rich more than any other nation. the EU is required to have a 15% sales tax or more to fund their government. High taxes on the rich has always resulted in economic depression the world over.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Wealthy taxes used to be much higher than they are today. So, complaints of "the government alway being in their pocket" is based on lack of perspective to how "bad" taxation was.
I do not consider the USA one of the wealthy-taxing nations. We are clearly allowing the profuse accumulation of wealth in small areas (especially over the last 30 years).
The social divide is enormous. Working people have no savings, and are in fact indentured by loans for even the most basic living necessities.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick Why do we fall? So we can learn to pick OURSELVES up.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Some people cannot help themselves, the system carries insurmountable momentum. Do you have any idea how stressful these situations can be, for those with health conditions? Stress is a huge risk factor for anyone with a health condition. It's easy to discuss from the outside, while not tangled in a precarious predicament yourself. It's a bit backwards to expect the same action from everyone.
What's the point of having a "society" if not to mutually increase each others' quality of living?
abyssquick 1 year ago
Check out constitution - our society doesn't exist to mutually increase each other's quality of living - whatever that even means. Why don't you move to someplace where they have that kind of society instead of trying to ruin this one?
glennd7962 1 year ago
No, read the constitution (and this goes even further), what a "Republic" is (see: Plato's Republic) & the philosophical basis behind it. In the most basic sense, the aim of creating a society (yes, even a Republic) is to increase each others' quality of life. It is a mutual effort. This is a basic philosophical conception.
How am I ruining your society? I am as American as you. My ancestors are pilgrims & native. Do not seek arrogate that identity for yourself, I take great offense to that.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick How do you help you neighbor by sneaking money out of their pockets. If you need money, ask. If you are truly in need, they will help.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
This is pointless. That's a simplistic caricature, an inaccurate representation of a rather complex problem. There are many courses of action, to solve it. It's a bit condescending to whittle it down to such an obtuse analogy.
This charitable idealistic world does not presently exist. And if it does, it is only with stipulation. How does this rhetoric help anyone right now? Or do we have to wait for this nation of charity to arrive first?
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick Again, UHC is charity! And its riddled with abuse and fraud and destroys any incentive to innovate and treat. Hows that government charity doing in greece?
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Of course people in the USA will say "we have the best care" "the rest of the world sucks" (to whittle down to an obtuse analogy :)
It's all peripheral to what I've been attempting to say. I'm not asking for entitlement, I'm asking for fair access. I don't even have that. I receive financial ruin, sloppy care. The only reason being a congenital condition.
Ive been through bureaucracy a dozen times with the help of lawyers, congressmen, senators. There is no recourse for people in my position.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick You can afford a lawyer but not health care?
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Another ad-hominem presumption. Contingency can be helpful.
Also we have one in the family. Don't you?
abyssquick 1 year ago
But what the constitution does is create a very limited sphere of government action, and asserts the primacy of our natural rights. No place in the document does it assert the rights of 'society' as superior to individual rights. My point in asking you to go elsewhere is that you have a conception of the relationship between govt and its citizens that isn't contemplated by our constitution. Other countries have such constitutions - France for example. Liberte, fraternite and egalite.
glennd7962 1 year ago
And believe me, I would emigrate, if it is possible. Do you understand it is impossible to immigrate if you are not well-off financially?
Saying "go somewhere else" is a blunt non-answer, a dismissive "swept under the carpet" non-argument. I can't "just leave" as people eloquently put it. Other nations have such thick, convoluted bureaucracy to prevent it. Most (all that have good healthcare) require substantial savings to even attempt.
It's not an answer. The problem remains.
abyssquick 1 year ago
"Sometimes" - more like "most of the time" I would say. A person with any sort of medial device will inevitably be forced to file bankruptcy. They can't even get insurance, especially if young. They have NO options really. That's the whole problem - social discrimination via insurance deprivation. Hospitals ransack these people, arrogate their future. I know because I'm one of them.
There are so many treatable diseases. Expensive to treat, yes, but quite treatable. The system is the problem.
abyssquick 1 year ago
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@abyssquick Its called medicaid. There are millions of people on it right now who can't afford health insurance or to pay out of pocket. You're just leing.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
No, you cannot get on medicaid unless you are old or disabled. There are many, many people who do not fit into these parameters. Just because a person has a medical condition, or medical device does not mean they are "disabled."
I don't think you have any experience with the system.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick I racket up a 90 thousand dollar bill of medicaid.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Medicaid is run by the state. Many states set parameters depending on their demographic. My state happens to be one which excludes people like myself. You are perhaps fortunate to live somewhere this isn't the case. Still, medicaid access should not dictate where a person lives. That's totally backwards.
abyssquick 1 year ago
25% of the residents of NYC are on medicaid - many poor people are eligible for it. You simply are ignorant of how medicaid works. Medicare is provides for the old and disabled (if they have participated in the program)(, and medicaid pays for the gap if their too poor to make up for it themselves. There are those who've never paid into SS who don't qualify and only are eligible for medicaid.
glennd7962 1 year ago
I've tried repeatedly. Repeatedly.
Not all states work the way NY does. Parameters are set by the individual state. They can't do anything about your finances if you've had insurance in the past 6 months. It's all technicalities that perpetually exclude people like me.
abyssquick 1 year ago
Yes, let's just indenture people with congenital conditions who need treatment. Because having their condition isn't bad enough, let's make them pay for it too - se them back a notch. This whole line of thinking is offensive to people who require treatment.
You would have them simply "pay" for these things? Just a simple matter of "saving their money" is it? No. One cannot help how they are born. It's not "entitlement" ask for a level financial playing field, the same as anyone else.
abyssquick 1 year ago
What people need to get into their thick skulls is that economic efficiency means something else entirely than the coloquial term efficient. In economics efficiency means the way that makes corporations squeeze the most money out of you while giving you the least service as possible in return. In that meaning private health care is most efficient.
13otany13ay 1 year ago 6
Blows my mind why americans hold on to their privatized health care system so tight. I think it must be the fear of change or their me me me atitude that the rest of the world in oh so familiar with, "as long as I'm covered I don't care about anyone else. It's the american way" I really don't get it.
Jason442200 1 year ago 7
It sucks for those of us who can't get insurance - such as just about any young person with a congenital condition. Thus, we're saddled with huge bills - forced to pay through the nose (i.e. be wealthy) or file bankruptcy. Forget about business or home-ownership.
Yes, the people who don't want systemic change have not suffered it's pitfalls. Unfairly, the media grants them a loud voice. They think it's all "entitlement" or other socially prejudiced rick-folk rhetoric.
It's a shit show really.
abyssquick 1 year ago
Oh I hear ya, I was talking to an american the other day and he was telling me his brother has to pay about $800 a month on health insurance for his family, I almost choked to death. $800!?!?! Thats insaine and then from what I hear there's even a chance that they can deny what ever claim is made. That kind of mentality is scary as shit. I pay $38 a month (because I can afford it) and I know I will ALWAYS get treatment no matter what.
Jason442200 1 year ago
$38 US? That's less than my &%#@ing cell phone bill! I pay $180/mo for single coverage with a $2,500.00 annual deductible. I have zero pre-existing conditions.
jefevonQ 1 year ago
no no, thats $38 canadian, so more like $39.25 US. If I were in a higher tax bracket, say over $100,000 a year it would go up a bit and if I were in a lower income level it would be free. We have no deductable, you just go into the hospital, give them your care card # and get treated. No bill, no money, no paper work.
Jason442200 1 year ago
That may be, but they could institute income based co-pays to help keep costs down. I don't mind a $25-35 co-pay. It might keep the helicopter-parents out of the office when their 'lawn-dart target' gets a scraped elbow.
Yes, I know, that was mean and a bit tacky.
jefevonQ 1 year ago
The wealthy exploit the pride of the hard-working. "Life is though, tough shit" - "Be thankful for you job," - "don't rock the boat," etc. Seeding this rhetoric they have swindled vast areas of the poor into this "be happy in your hovel" attitude we often hear.
The 'rich' ought to be thankful we allow their wealth. Most nations do not, they redistribute it to prevent vast social divides which occur in an Ogliarchy.
The rich have abused their workhorses. It's time they pull their own cart.
abyssquick 1 year ago 6
@abyssquick 100% in agreement. If the rich don't want their wealth taken away, they should try a little harder not to make it so easy to hate them for the unjust system they perpetuate. Whats so amazing is that despite that fact that middle class has been getting more and more fucked, so many refuse to do anything about it.
eirefrance 1 year ago
The "rich" are often as socially illiterate as the general public (for different reasons), having most often grown up insulated in a wealthy sector of society.
They think that we workers are "ungrateful" "whiners" and "begrudging their success" and whatnot. They hate unions, and seed anti-union rhetoric (please, remind us commonfolk again why unions are a bad idea...?). There is a proximity blindness. I've met some who flat out deny we're in a recession, because it hasn't affected them.
abyssquick 1 year ago
well unions are bad because they have been corrupted as bad as the corporations. the basic idea yea unions are good in this capitalistic society because it was a way to fight the bastards but now the heads are just as greedy and worthless as the ones they are suppose to be protecting us from. the workers are still getting screwed just by both sides now.
Nibielari 1 year ago
Yes, but a "union" is merely by definition a collection of people who band together with the common goal of improving their circumstances. This in itself I would not object to - I consider the modern form of "unions" as another matter. I don't think the conception itself is without merit. Perhaps some modern incarnations of it have gone too far.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@Nibielari
No, they're getting screwed by one side: the ruling capitalist class. The bureaucrats running the unions are simply class collaborationists who are tied by a thousand strings to the Demorats, a capitalist party.
The problem with unions is that they don't have a socialist outlook. That problem can be corrected.
Congest 1 year ago
isnt that what i just said that even thou the idea of unions is good to help the workers in this capitalistic society they have turned into nothing more than another corporation trying to squeeze every dime they can for themselves by screwing the people paying them and the workers they are suppose to be helping. hence why i said now the workers are getting screwed from both sides now. just because we can change unions for the better doesnt mean that arent bad
Nibielari 1 year ago
I suppose it is - forgive the impersonalness of the internet, it is difficult mode of adequate human communication.
As congest suggests 'capitalism' has the capacity to actually go against the whole purpose of human society. 'Society' is very popular among humans working together we can all improve our living circumstances mutually. Capitalism, which encourages greed while deferring it at the same time, can indeed pull it the other way.
I think we have lost a human focus in the USA.
abyssquick 1 year ago 4
well absolutely even thou capitalism has given us many great things i believe we are at a point where we can create a new form that works way better. now what that system is i can only come up with ideas. but what i do know is the system america has now is definitely not the best we can come up with.
i do know no matter what system we can come up with if its allowed corruption will ruin it.
Nibielari 1 year ago 2
"We can do better" is always a good attitude. The intent of the USA's founding fathers in implementing a "republic" was to prevent oppressive momentum of both Ogliarchy (wealthy-ruled) and Democracy (majority ruled). "Republic" (as in Plato's Republic) is a "middle road" to keep the extremes at bay.
Presently the former 'Republic" has fallen into an Ogliarchy, due to the pressure of overrun Capitalism.
That is an overview of how I see it presently, but there's always more detail to consider.
abyssquick 1 year ago 3
@abyssquick You are 100% correct...However, you left out the growing Theocracy in America!
The Republican Party & the wealthy use religion to get folks to vote against their own economic well being and against the basic upkeep of our great nation.
Dark Times are coming if we do not reverse course!
SkyDaddy7 1 year ago 3
very nice observation
i do a lot of arguing with creationist and fundies on the internet and i see the same tactics being used by the republicans. nothing but a bunch of lies and misrepresentation of facts. quote mining like crazy when its just not a blatant refusal to acknowledge facts.
Nibielari 1 year ago 3
There is an undercurrent of Theocracy, seeding illogical / irrational decisions. People's cherished beliefs are being exploited politically.
Part of it is due to general social / scientific illiteracy (there are many shills on the airwaves actively breaking people's trust in academia). Another part of it is the very fact of corporate-owned airwaves (what you watch as "news" is the face of a corporation).
Public discussion is saturated with media-perpetuated ideas / terms - a wide influence.
abyssquick 1 year ago
well put
one of the biggest problems with politics today is scientifically literate people no longer go into politics. its left for people who just want money and another term.
thou it wouldnt solve everything by any means, term limits would be a great step towards righting the path this country has gone down.
Nibielari 1 year ago 3
@Nibielari A fine mix of Capitalism & socialism is what we have...We are currently to heavy of the capitalist side! We should not be profiting off the health of human being nor should we be profiting off the Judicial & criminal system like we are!
We have lost our morals in search of GREED!
SkyDaddy7 1 year ago 4
In the allegedly enlightened happy-go-lucky "health food" industry, no less.
abyssquick 1 year ago
Could you lend me $100? I'll pay you back next Tuesday maybe.
bush1tman 1 year ago
@Jason442200
It boils down to the American public uncritically absorbing about a hundred years of unceasing anti-communist propaganda. The American public is so politically illiterate that large sections of them think a corporate whore like Obama is a socialist!
Congest 1 year ago
Yeah, Obama is caving to the lobbies. The public is incapable of perceiving social and political subtlety.
We're an presently Ogliarchy, going by observation. The USA was born as an experimental Republic (see Plato). Yet, we have a good portion that think we're a democracy.
We also have a good portion that think s "republic" has something to do with "republican" because one word contains the other.....
...?
abyssquick 1 year ago
They've been lied to as it's a sin to have a NHS. You're not taking care of yourself. You're forcing someone else to do it for you. America = sheep. We say we have our own mind but that is a lie too. Our minds belong to whom ever they give it to. Sad really. This is the last days for America.
medicatedsaint 1 year ago
@Jason442200 What the hell are you talking about Jason. America bailed out the soviet union. We bailed out mexico, we're giving more aid to haiti than any other coutry, america is the single largest charitable nation both per person and as a whole. What kind of communist hate mongering is this.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
@UncommonThinker: Are you on glue? what the hell else would the cops do in that case? Do you expect them to see the future and swoop in and stop a robbery before it happened? So they should have anticipated that someone was going to break into my house while I'm not there and rob me? Man would I love to live in your little dream world. The cops did exactally what they should.....I called in a crime and they responded.
Man, put down the crack pipe and come back to reality.
Jason442200 1 year ago
@Jason442200 And there is you. You defend your home. Which is the number one deterent of crime. You're the one claiming the government paid police are the reason you don't get robbed every day.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
No, I wasn't claiming that at all. Buddy, put down the crack pipe and go back to school.
And where do you get the idea that me defending my home is the main deterant of crime? Obviosly the dude who broke into my truck wasn't concerned about what I would do and if it wasn't for the cops he would've gotten away with it.
Jason442200 1 year ago
@Jason442200 The leave a $20 bill on the side walk with a sign asking someone nicely not to take it. Or else you'll call the police when its gone.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
@UncommonThinker: You think fire dept don't do anything any more? Wow, you need to wake the hell up and leave mommy and daddy's house. And as far as the $20 bill thing goes, it probably wouldn't go missing for a while in my town, hense why most people don't lock their homes here.
Jason442200 1 year ago
@Jason442200 I bought my own house. 99% of responsible people save money and can afford to buy things.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Thats absolute CRAP. Don't throw out numbers like 99% when you have no idea what your talking about. I'm responsible but don't own a house, instead I own a business but I am always aware that shit happens and sometimes its out of our control. To say that anyone who doesn't make lots of money and is not resposible don't deserve proper health care is disgusting. You live in a first world country but think and act like your in a third world country.
Jason442200 1 year ago
So if your america is providing soooo much to other countries why can't america provide for it's own people? Why are there so many americans without health insurance or having to rack up insaine doctor bills?
Jason442200 1 year ago
@Jason442200 Because we're a hard working people and don't expect charity to cover what we ourselves are capable of providing. If you really need help then you can suffer the inconvenience of actually asking the person whose paying. Your neighbor. Instead of a mindless beaurocrat who gets paid to pass out checks.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
@UncommonThinker, I'll ask again...are you on glue?
Yes, it sure is nice to work and to provide for your self, I am actually self employed and running my own company but one thing I have learned is that......shit happens. And that is what universal health care is about (in my opinion) Sure, you might be fully covered but shit happens to everyone. So would you consider the fire dept a charity? You pay into it but how many times have you had to call them?
Jason442200 1 year ago
Universal Healthcare Care is completely pro- small-business. We would in fact see a proliferation of small-time entrepeneurs. Depending on how it is executed, it could be a great thing to do for our economy.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick That's just a talking point. UHC would not benefit businesses. If it did then the US wouldn't be the richest nation in the world with the highest per capita incomes.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
@Jason442200 Insurance is the shit happens. So is moving in with a family member. The reason we don't have as much "shit happens" is because we're expected to plan for it. And just like the police, the fire department doesn't do much of anything anymore. Houses are more flame resistant than ever. And unlike health care, I'm not worried about destroying fire innovation just because my city counsel pays for fire truck.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
The development of healthcare technology takes place at large hospitals and universities...
For people with chronic conditions "shit is happening" always. That's why making them buy insurance is completely inappropriate - it's financial discrimination. It is favoring people with money, and ousting those without. One's financial status might determine what quality of care they receive. Hospitals that are for profit only do care as required legally. Then they broom you out the door and bill you.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick Large hospitals are "for profit" and "Universities rely on charitable donations." That's just another example of how industry and charity work excellently with one another. And medical companies still invent more medical products and innovation than another. You realize the united states has the highest survival rates for most major diseases. That's because anything free must also be arbitrarily rationed to reduce costs.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
I'm not suggesting "free"
No, I don't know where you get that US statistic. Cardiovascular disease is the most prominent western chronic ailment - and France has the highest quality care, and best longevity associated with it. Followed by Italy, I as remember. It is this same way for most major diseases.
I realize there are lots of claims like this out there, but I'm not speaking from "anti-USA" stance. I'm just trying to understand all these points of view here.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick Its easy to win an argument if you lie. Italy is nearly bankrupt. And France recently killed off many of their government nursing residents in the heat wave of 2003. 14,000 senior citizens died in 2003 of neglect in nursing homes. Quality in those hospitals is low and uncomfortable compared to our system.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
I'm not "lying." I'm going by the WHO assessment from just a few years ago. How is that "lying?"
It's rather juvenile to call out someone as "lying" when incredulity on your part may be a factor.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick That WHO study was done in 2000 and they stated the united states was the highest in quality. You should really read the study. And its criticisms. They ranked Columbia next to us. Because when I think of Columbia, I think of drug lords and american quality health care.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
I did. Ironically, in my effort to emigrate. What study are you reading?
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick You're just a compulsive liar then. 25% of the rankings we're for equality. Not quality. I bet you'd say cuba has good health care as well.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
No, I wouldn't say that about Cuba. Do you take me for some striped liberal? I'm independent.
I've actually spent a great deal of time talking to people from these places about their care, in my effort to find a suitable area to emigrate.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick Cuba didn't rank very far behind us either in that WHO study. Equality over quality. did you look up the 14,000 senior citizen deaths in France in 2003?
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
The medeterranean heat waves are a climate issue. There's drought and desertification going on in that area. The same is happening in Australia, too. I fail to see how the two are necessarily connected. You would have to delineate causation specifically to what you say. People die from climate catastrophes every year, all over the world.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick That doesn't happen in the united states. We have good health care. And when your in a hospital and die of heat exhaustion. It is a health care problem.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
We don't have unexpected climate extremes and desertification in the states. It's been more steady climate here, compared to many areas.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick Were you just born? We had record heat waves at the same time france did.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Stop with the red herrings. You know full well this path is completely peripheral to my point, and is bad logic. At least I would hope so.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick If you beleive what your saying is true than your crazy. I don't care how well you rationalize it.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Rationalizing is for people in the wrong, who lie to themselves.
You however seem to have an inaccurate (or politically / media influenced) concept of what I'm trying to say. You use inaccurate analogies, ask questions trying to pidgeonhole my response - to which you have a pre-form rebuttal. I'm just sharing my experiences with US healthcare & how I have come to think based on them. That's all.
I'm sorry. People like me exist. We're just as American (at least, we speak the same language).
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick I'm sorry communists exist too. And liars.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
You can't just subjugate the whole discussion, as though you are somehow "victorious" by pigeonholing people into terms like "liar" and "communist" - such obtuse distinctions show a clear lack of perceptive capacity.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick Equality is the only standard for which Europe and canada succeeds in health care. The United states wins in quality and innovation hands down. We're richer and harder working. Because society demands it. My family, who are my safety net, demands it.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
@UncommonThinker: "The United states wins in quality and innovation hands down. We're richer and harder working"
What an insainly ignorant statement, you really havn't been outside your own country much have you?
And I'm sure communism is a HUGE threat to the US....oh waite, it's not 1956 anymore.
Jason442200 1 year ago
@Jason442200 Who won the most nobel prizes in medicine again? The United states. Is that my country? Yes!
Harder, smarter, better. The american work ethic. Canada isn't too bad either. I'm just as proud of canada.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
It's an overabundance of yang. some would call it hard-headed. Obviously we, as Americans, value the qualities common to ourselves, in the scenarios and places familiar to us.
However, the trademark of a worldly, rational mind is the ability to exist outside this conditioned province. Physicially, and intellectually.
It's one thing to have interest and some in where you come from. It's another to allow the mind to be run by it. (Wear the shoe only if/as you see fit.)
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick So basically I'm righ but I shouldn't judge. Perhaps equality is better than quality. Just don't force it on me. Find your own socialist paradice. history has shown that socialists don't have much long term compassion for net takers of society.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
I don't think it is fair to judge. Every scenario is different. We have a general idea of how societies function, but the details can change the course years down the road.
Understand that I have no choice but to seek a "socialist paradise" as I must fight for my equality. I am discriminated against by this system. So it's not really a choice for me. Understand that. I have little future unless the USA changes it's policies for people like me.
abyssquick 1 year ago
Education and constant vigilance is the key. But I would suggest that ignoring political paradigms is probably the best benefit.
Ideas from one place may be applied to another, with care. We implement socialism already for much of our infrastructure. so, it's not a foreign concept really.
abyssquick 1 year ago
Then why is it that every time I go down to the US I'm generally out weighed by atleast 100lbs? Most americans I meet in my travels are lazy as shit not to mention fat as hell. To say that america is harder, smarter and better than anyone else is a statement from someone who has never left home. I love my country Canada but I deffentally realize that there are counrties ahead of us in various industries.
And furthur more, if the US is so great, why are you in the back pocket of China?
Jason442200 1 year ago
We are scientifically, nutritionally, and often socially illiterate. I speak as one of them. A denizen of this increasingly listless and lethargic land.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick So now you're stating we're just inferior? Must be that there govment learnin. Can't wait til them folks run the hospitals too.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
No, I'm pointing out weaknesses, places to improve. You have already alluded to our strengths as you see them.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick And our primary weaknesses are government control and manipulation. The government has done socialism worse than any other country. Which is why we have the worst school system. Thank goodness we have a good free market culture. And Canada is a lot more free market that the US right now. Which is why they can afford the negative affects of government control of health insurance.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
How exactly does government hamper and manipulate us out of social and financial prosperity?
I think the power rests with the people. A country is a collection many individual minds, and as such, a reflection of them. People vote for those most like themselves, do they not?
SO, if we as people can do the thinking, the communicating, we can accomplish anything.
The government IS people. An extension of them. The psyche of the nation of the must change if we expect the government to change.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick Towards limited government and personal freedom. Because as a voter I'm only one in 300 million people. But as a worker and consume, I'm 100% responsible so I have every incentive to get it right!
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
Yes, you are small in number, but our minds are distinctly American, a reflection of American culture.
We're customers of the private sector. We're citizens of the public sector. Capitalism has smudged tho two together.
What I fear about deregulation is that it benefits those with wealth - it allows the extrapolation into new areas, and creates a financially defensive culture.
Capitalism = "let's make more for less" (exploit) - If we pursue this we have to be diligent in it's supervision.
abyssquick 1 year ago
@abyssquick What exploit? We have guns! You can't exploit people who can fight back. Equality means equally impoverished.
UncommonThinker 1 year ago
I fail to see how mutually cocked firearms are a state of prosperity and/or peace.