Vegan Abolitionist Approach (part 2 of 2) - MUST WATCH

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

Im not suggesting that vegans live pure lives, its impossible. However there is a heck of a lot we can do. The solution is not to do nothing just because we can't do everything. That's defeatist.

Morality is not just a personal view. Would you say that what the Nazi's did was fundamentally wrong? Would you say it's a matter of personal opinion? No right minded person would consider what happened in those gas chambers to be anything but morally abhorrent.

Morality is not relative.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"Morality is not just a personal view. Would you say that what the Nazi's did was fundamentally wrong "

Regarding the Nazis, what is important on a moral view?The fact they murdered or the fact they murdered only taking in account the numbers.Would 3 million and not 6 million made the crime less inhumane?There is no morality in killing,period.Making categories of"good"or"bad"foods won't change that simple moral fact.We need to kill to survive but that doesn't make it moral.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

we don't need to directly kill animals to survive. We can live healthfully on a vegan diet. Yes its impossible to stop indirect death during farming of veggies/grains, but we can definitely stop direct animal slaughter. Meat is a luxury for the large majority of this world, not a necessity.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"we don't need to directly kill animals to survive. We can live healthfully on a vegan diet. "

When you make a list of the nutrients you don't or hardly find in the vegan diet I wouldn't be so sure.Why do vegans need chemically manipulated vitamins?Simply because the vegan diet isn't natural to the human body.

The vegan livestyle is a middle of the 20th century movement,possible only because of medicine and science discoveries and the huge logistic machine feeding you.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

please enlighten me on this "list" of nutrients i need that can't be found in a vegan diet.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"please enlighten me on this "list" of nutrients i need that can't be found in a vegan diet."

No vitamin B12, no or poor vitamin D (in temperate regions), no EPA/DHA, no Taurine, poor iodine, poor iron, poor selenium, poor calcium. And I presume I forget some.

Are you enlighted enough, most vegans have no idea what dietary dangers there livestyle really has but strangely they know plenty of the supposed dangers of meat and use every opportunity to talk about them.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

B12 supplements are cheap and plentiful. Vitamin D is recommend to ALL people in temperate regions, regardless of diet (due to lack of exposure to adequet sunlight). EPA/DHA = i consume a oil made by UMO that uses a variety of vegan sources for my omega 3,6,9 DHA/EPA. Covered. iodized table salt. I don't even try and eat foods rich in iron, and the last time i donated blood, the women told me i have excellent iron levels (above 150). Plant foods are the major sources of selenium

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"B12 supplements are cheap and plentifu"

B12 for vegans is mostly "cyanocobalamin"it's a man made vitamin made with the help of chemical manipulation.

"Vitamin D"

Vitamin D is found in meat/fish,not one plant has vitamin D.Plenty of vegans lack vitamin D

"EPA/DHA ="

From what source is this oil as there is no DHA/EPA in plants?

"iodized table salt"

That depends strongly in wich iodized salt you are talking about,not all salts have enough iodine.Still plenty of vegans lack iodine

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

b12 is made from bacteria, not from meat.

most people are vitamin D deficient, regardless of what they eat.

DHA: google "udo dha 3 6 9"

You critize vegans as having deficiencies, yet the large majority of people on this planet are buying the largest majority of daily supplements, are eating animals that had fortified feed so that their bodies have those vitamins in their flesh (not natural), and nearly every packaged food is heavily foritifed with vitamins and minerals

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

And yet most people are deficient, regardless if they are vegan or not. There is already so much supplemenation in our food system. If meat/dairy was so good, why are the countries with the highest dairy consumption have the worst bone issues? Why are heart disease and cancer so prevelent the more meat/dairy a country consumes? There are already so many studies showing these links.

The American Dietetic Association says a vegan diet is healthy for all people in all life stages.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

Calcium: Google "vegan calcium" and you will see that theres lots to eat. Most people eat too much, and a lot of the recommended daily amounts are so high because of the acidic diet of most people.

The only supplements i take: b12 (twice weekly) vitamin D (onces a day except in summer), DHA/EPA oil with my shake daily. I have yearly blood work done, and im very healthy. Im 6 foot 4, 240 lbs and i work out every day at the gym.

So, please enlighten me on how im deficient.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"Calcium:"

I wonder why the EPIC-Oxford study has shown 30% more fractures in vegans if there is no calcium problem in vegans.

"So, please enlighten me on how im deficient"

You just proved that the vegan diet is neither natural or easy.

I am 46 and just as healthy as you isn't that strange for an omnivore.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

"I am 46 and just as healthy as you isn't that strange for an omnivore."

if you think that vegans can't be healthy, then that means im not healthy, and then that means you just said you are not healthy. So which is it?

Regardless, its been fun having this discussion with you, but this dialogue is taking too much of my time. All the best.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"Yes its impossible to stop indirect death during farming of veggies/grains"

That isn't the case for all the rats and mice,they are killed directly,but again that doesn't seem to be a problem.

"Meat is a luxury for the large majority of this world, not a necessity."

There are plenty of cultures on this planet based on pastoral communities.Even the FAO recognizes the pastoral mode to combat hunger and poverty in third world countries.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

death of rats and mice is an indirect death. It is a problem, and if we had vegan farmers, and a vegan world, i would hope that steps would be taken to limit indirect deaths. I find it ironic that you criticize me for not caring enough, when its us vegans who are taking actively avoiding causing death and suffering on the majority of sentient animals in the world. Perhaps you should shine that mirror on your own life, and see if you care enough.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"death of rats and mice is an indirect death. "

Excuse me?Ever heard about the massive campaigns every year against rats and mice, this is not an accident at all. It's organised campaigns to murder animals.

What I see is again hypocrite behaviour coming from your ideas.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

What massive campaigns every year? Im talking about accidental death of animals during grain/vegetable farming. What are you talking about?

How are my beliefs hypocritical?

Want to see hypocritical?: "Do you believe its wrong to inflict UNNECESSARY suffering on animals?" most people would say its wrong. There is no necessity in eating/wearing/hunting animals, so our ONLY justification is entertainment, and therefore you are being hypocritical because entertainment is not necessary.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"What massive campaigns every year?"

I am talking about the organized campaings done in every city on this planet every year to control rats and mice.

Ever heard any of you talking about this?Why always campaining against the bad meat industry and forgetting those animals?That's what I call being a hypocrite.

I wonder what you call UNNECESSARY suffering and why always that animal phobia, aren't plants alive?Why this racism in protecting the life of any lifeform?

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

its not about being alive, its about being sentient that's important (the ability to feel and think). Plants don't feel or think.

Regardless, i don't want to open this up for further discussion. Wish you all the best. Good day.

[celt130]

"I find it ironic that you criticize me for not caring enough, when its us vegans who are taking actively avoiding causing death and suffering on the majority of sentient animals in the world."

What I find ironic is that the supposed animal abolitionists only talk about some animals to save,strangely the ones that others eat.What I see is that you only care about some animals,not all of them.

That simple fact only proves what hypocrite ideas you really stand for,maybe you could use a mirror.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

i care about all animals, however the largest uses of animals in this world is for food, clothing and science. We are trying to get people to understand veganism so that the world moves in that direction. Its not that i care more or less about one animal or another, its that if people wrongly think its ok to kill animals for fun (eating), then they won't care about other animal abuses.

Please outline for me how you think im being hypocritical, and how you are not.

[netforce0]

i support you and everything you hold, i just have a differnt approach towards the ultimate goal, sorry for the misunderstanding, but that is the generic nutshell version of my beliefs. If you feel i am living life wrong please call me out on it, because i feel i am doing pretty good if not the best i can. I have lost many nights of sleep crying over how everything is fucked up so please don't act like i don't care

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

i believe you do care very much, and i think that you have animal's best interest in mind, however, i think your approach is misguided and impractical. I used to think the way you do. I would strongly suggest you read up on Prof. Gary Francione's books... they really changed (for the better) my perception of vegan advocacy, as there are lots of warm heated, sincere people in the animal rights movement doing little good, and some doing a lot of harm.

[netforce0]

Vegans are extreme they don't understand that human psychology doesn't work that way, MAYBE if we were all vegetarians already you could convince everyone to go vegan but tis not easy. Get the government to stop subsidizing meat production and it will be a lot easier. I am a vegetarian by the way. Vegan at home, vegetarian when i eat out.

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

Veganism is not extreme. I fully understand the human psychology as i too am human, and once did eat animal products. Im not super human, i love food, and im a vegan. Never did say trying to convince people to go vegan was easy (vegetarians are often even harder to talk to about veganism).

"Get the government to stop subsidizing meat"? Really? How are you going to convince everyone to pay A LOT more for animal products? Change people, and the government will follow.

[netforce0]

@VeganTruth economic reforms are one of the best ways to get people to change their lifestyle. Literally making it too expensive to produce meat, will make it too expensive to buy meat, making it too expensive to eat meat. Making people who don't even support vegetarianism follow along. It is the biggest step i feel that america can take towards a food revolution.

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

that's naive for a number of reasons: 1) politicians who you would have to convince eat meat. They wouldn't want to pay more for their meat 2)Animal Industry lobbiest have huge power and money to control what laws are passed, and i can tell you they would fight any attempt to make their products unfordable 3) citizens would demand that the subsidize be reformed because government is the voice of the people, government can't dictate.

[netforce0]

@VeganTruth Wow so you are saying the only way to fix it is to get people to stop eating meat? Even those like ted nugent who hunt their own meat? Good luck. My economic approach seems a lot more effective.

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

the reality is that everyone won't go vegan, so its pointless to try. What you should do is be vegan yourself, and get those who are responsive to go vegan. Once there are enough people who are vegan, then they will have political force to change laws. As it is now, 99% of the world thinks its alright to eat animals, so why would they make it more expensive for themselves? Doesn't make sense.

[netforce0]

@VeganTruth its not easy, i'm not saying it is easy. Sorry if i am painting that picture.

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

What is not easy?

[netforce0]

@VeganTruth also have you seen how people act towards psuedo- socialism??? good luck in america justifying a real form of socialism.

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

Why are you vegetarian? Why don't you eat vegan all the time? Do you wear leather? Fur? If so, why? if not, why?

[netforce0]

@VeganTruth its really hard to eat out as a vegan for 1, and its just something i have kept since i started going veg. I get the vegan option if it is offered, but taht is really rare here in Evansville Indiana. I'm an eco-femenist so i am against the domination of animals and nature. I am too poor for fur and leather for 1, but no i do not own any and see them as stupid. I have conviced a few friends to go vegetarian, and drink organic milk. So I am doing what i can in my busy life to make adif

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

If you are against domination of animals, why do you still support domination of animals in your food choices? Regardless of how "nicely" the animals were treated, your "organic" milk and dairy is still the product of suffering, death and domination.

[netforce0]

@VeganTruth i realize this. You don't have to explain my own ideology to me. I rarely eat out and that justifies me partaking in vegetarian because it is not domination if it is rare. Organic milk farms that i tell people to buy from have Grass Fed cows, that are allowed to graze, never fed corn, etc. While it can be seen as domination i tell them to do that because it destroys the factory farm business. Which is obviously domination. The first step towards a better future is small.

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

" it is not domination if it is rare". Im sorry that is entirely false if you put that into a human context: Rape is a form of domination. Its domination if its done frequently or rarely. Is it ok to rape someone if you only do it once?

Why not advocate that people drink rice/soy/almond milk rather then slightly less dominated "organic" cow milk farms? Why advocate for something that is still cruel and morally problematic, when there are so many alternatives?

[netforce0]

@VeganTruth yes on the individual rape is a domination of of another individual. Humanity eating meat all the time is a domination of animals, one person having cheese pizza is a nickle in the bucket. I understand your feelings, and i do advocate for those things. But i say, if you won't go soy/rice/etc at least go organic. Ya know?

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

however "organic" or "humane" has little to no real meaning legally. Also, what ends up happening is that people who were concerned about animal use, and could have perhaps been made vegan, end up feeling pretty good about themselves when they buy what they think is "humane" animal products. If people think that "humane" products dissolve there moral responsibility towards animals, they end up stopping there and continue, if not increase, their animal use. Id rather someone go vegan.

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

Factory farming is wrong, but so is ALL animal farming/entertainment/experiem­entation. Drawing the line between "humane" farming and factory farming is arbitrary. Both result in the death of those animals, the selling of calfs to veal farms.

There is probably more suffering in a glass of milk then in a piece of meat: Dairy animals are kept alive longer, tortured longer, and end up in the same slaughterhouses that flesh animals are killed at. How does that move us forward?

[netforce0]

@VeganTruth Making it fiscally impossible to survive by practicing such horrible techniques is a good way to cut out these practices. I know all of this. I've watched earthlings, read Regan, been to a slaughterhouse, seen a factory farm, etc. You seem to think that i disagree with your ideology... i support your ultimate goal, i just understand that small steps lead to big steps. You can tell me i'm horrible all day, all it does is bring me down and slow down my goals, which are your goals.

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

im not discounting that it will take many small steps, im just disagreeing with the steps. Its an attractive idea to stop the institutional exploiters, however it's a supply and demand industry. You close down 100 slaughterhouses, but if the demand for meat is the same, then 100 more slaughterhouses will open up. If government A removes subsidizes, and the demand for meat continues, then country A will buy meat from other countries and ruin industry A in their country. Won't happen

[netforce0]

@VeganTruth if the government gets rid of the oil subsidies as well then this will make the supply of meat go down and the price of meat go up. the poor will be "forced" to eat less. In the long term the demand for meat will go down, and the supply will follow. The less meat people eat, the more other foods can be subsidized and demanded. This is not an easy plan to explain because it relys a lot on "what ifs, and assumptions". Health related problems that meat causes will also go down.

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

that's naive. why would the government get rid of oil subsidies? This world runs on money, and oil and farming is big business. You can't force a population to do something it doesn't want. Its like you going into a Muslim run country and demanding that they separate religion and state. You have to change people's minds, and then when these people's population has political power can things actually take place.

[netforce0]

@VeganTruth you probably right about that. But maybe we are looking at it from too much a black and white standard. Maybe if we do both, try to change enough people so that when these legal measures are taken it will happen. And money is the root of all evil, that's why i'm wanting to take it away from them. America isfull of different view points and ideologies yet it is split down the middle politically technically. Get one party to stop listening to big oil and agro-buisness, maybe we can win

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

I don't think you fully understand economics, because all things sold work on a Supply and Demand basis. When you have 99% of people Demanding something, someone in this world will provide the Supply. By trying to reform the Supply is pointless because its not in the interest of the Suppliers, or the 99% of people Demanding. You have to work to change the demand, the people buying. Once we have enough, then political action makes sense. Its now a waste of time/money/effort.

[netforce0]

@VeganTruth i understand how economics work, however tarrifs would most certaintly be implemented on meat production if the US couldn't compete with foriegners, unless its mexico and canada due to NAFTA

[VeganTruth]

@netforce0

if the USA (or any country) made their products too expensive, they can't stop the import of cheaper goods from other countries, so in effect they would kill the industry at home, while strengthen it abroad. 1) The Government of any country wouldn't kill a profitable industry on its own turf unless massive public outcry demanded it 2)Industry survives as long as demand stays the same. Attacking Suppliers is pointless. Change demand, and supply will match

[TRGreywolf]

In the burning house scenario, I will save the puppy because for most other people, they will save the human baby instead. Few will choose to save a dog over a human, so I will be one of the few who will save the puppy instead.

[VeganTruth]

@TRGreywolf

hey, its nice to see that you are still around. Have you gone vegan?

[TRGreywolf]

@VeganTruth

Hi, there. No, but I have gone vegetarian.

[celt130]

Why do you never talk about the killing of billions of rats and mice killed every year to protect you from diseases and stop them eating your food?Are they not animals?What about all the wild animals killed every year when fields are harvested?Your fields who feed you what do you think lived there before when it was still a forest.What about your house,workplace,roads,leisure you use. How much animals are killed or hurt for your own luxurious life?

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

Hi, thanks for your input as those are valid questions. Veganism is about doing what we can to alleviate suffering. I oppose animal testing, and if I had a choice, I would choose the drugs that were not tested on animals, but We don't have that option. I believe the use of animals for testing is often bad science, and unnecessary. The issue is choice. I can easily live healthy without meat and dairy, but I can't live healthy if I need medication when I get sick

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

As to the animals killed while harvesting, I believe it's an issue of how current farming practices. Combines drive side by side and don't give animals a chance to escape. If I could choose a vegan farmer who would take care not to allow animals die, but again I don't have the choice, as such farmers aren't labeled.

All your points are valid, however as a vegan there is little I can do other then run to the forest and live in a tent.

[celt130]

The point of feeding a couple of million vegans or the feeding of 6,5 billion people every day on a vegan diet is interesting.75% of the crops grown in the world are fertilised by chemicals who are not sustainable in the future.A"natural"based agriculture would use manure.What would the vegans propose to meet feeding all those people naturally without manure is a question no vegan ever answered to me.Every thing we do affects the planet and the question is if veganism is the only answer.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

good question, and at this time i dont have an answer for you regarding the manure issue. Will look into it and let you know.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

Being vegan doesn't mean being pure and not guilty of animal death, but it means doing what is easy to stop the most death and suffering. I think you have a skewed idea what veganism is about. We strive for a world were even the lab/ field animals, etc are free from danger. Until the time when there are more vegans, we have to do what we can to stop the most suffering.

Veganism is an easy step to help reform the worlds persecutive of non human animals and help stop some suffering

[celt130]

@VeganTruth I imagine you believe world hunger exists because of rich people eating meat?I can also assume you think all the meat and milk we consume are from industrial origin?Why is the killing of an animal less moral then the killing of a plant?Because you think plants don't feel?When did murder become moral?Any killing of any lifeform in any circumstance is morally wrong.Creating"good"or"bad"foo­d based on pain only is not morally defendable in any circumstance.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

please dont assume anything of me. I believe that the world are hungry for a number of reasons, most importantly due to corrupt leadership, uneducation, greed of corporations etc. The western diet does have a negative impact on the worlds poor too, but i wouldnt classify that as one of the main causes.

Vegans believe that sentience is important, not just being alive. Plants are not sentient.

A blade of grass if farm more different then a human or cow.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth You chose the easy arguments as it was there fault,not ours.Why do you think 80% of the world population lives with less then 10$/day?Why do you think your goods are so cheap?Imagine those people would have the same wages as us,how much would our goods would really cost.Plain economics,empires where build on slaves,we build on cheap labor and poor people.We all profit from this economic situation.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

i totally agree. I would be willing to pay more if it ment the human situation improved. But again, i dont have much of a choice when buying products. most products are made in countries that have lax laws.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth Well yes,that is an utopia you hear a lot.The question is,are you willing to pay 10X more as you will lose your rich livestyle and your luxurious standard of life for ever.Do you think our leaders and our Western economy will survive?Big empires only became big because of slaves, so we the Westeners have our own slaves building our stuff for peanuts.Veganism or great utopias will never change this.Your young, so I understand.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

i completely agree, however its the responsibility of everyone to at least make an effort to change the world for the better. The issue is that we allowed government and big business to dictate our lives, and it is up to us to take back some of that control. We need to be accountable in our daily lives if we expect the those that we "elect" to represent us. Vegan world is long shot, but we start with ourselves and work towards that future. Its better to try then to give up and not care

[celt130]

@VeganTruth You see we can agree on some things, maybe things will change or we will change.You think it is the people who elect governments?That is an illusion called democracy.The US is a good example.Observe how the candidates first pass there exam before all kinds of lobby's,banks etc before they can even start and then they get eventually there support.For those people if it is bleu or green who wins that doesn't matter,they have been approved by them,not by the people.Same every where else

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

Oh I agree, that's why I wrote "elect" in quotations.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth Where is it different exactly?Plants breath,eat,drink,communicate,f­eel,reproduce and more important they live.Animals and humans only live on this planet because of plants.Animals and humans are parasites.Plants as animals have GABA wich is a neurotransmitter and science has proven plants can make the difference between a drop of water and insect legs and act on it in seconds.Still nothing justifies the moral importance of animals over all other liveforms on this planet.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

i disagree. Sentience is different then a plants ability to react to its environment.

I appreciate your commitement to police veganism, but i think you miss the point altogether: There is no need to eat meat/dairy/eggs/fish to live. There IS a need to eat plants in order to live. There is a need to live in society in order live an acceptable life, and until we can reform it to make it more vegan and animal friendly, we have to deal with a bit of hypocrisy.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth Inuits lived on a 90%/99% meat-fish diet for centuries without heart diseases and almost no cancers in one of the hardest environment on the planet.You can only live on meat,some people do that in our western world.It isn't more difficult then following a vegan diet.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

the inuit also have short life spans, and have the bones that age much quicker then the rest of the western population. Just because you can survive on meat, doesnt mean you need to. Its about necessity, not about choices.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth That is modern data,didn't exist before the industry and fastfood that changed there way of life for ever.The problem they have with there bones comes from the poisoning of the artic foodchain with PCB and heavy metals coming from our industries.There are plenty of scientific data to confirm this.

"Just because you can survive on meat, doesnt mean you need to"Doesn't that apply to your livestyle also?

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

Could you link to that proof? From what i understood, remains found of the Inuit from many years ago had the same bone issues as today.

I don't understand your last comment.

[celt130]

But, as we have seen, the existence of some plant analogue of an animal nerve and nervous system might be anticipated. Research generated in the light of the concept of plant neurobiology would, if approached with an open mind, strengthen (or weaken) this possibility. Moreover, the abstract form of Living Systems Theory provides a way of dispelling stereotypes and permits nerves and nervous transmission to be viewed in the light of a universal channel and net subsystem

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

Are you suggesting a carrot and a pig are more similar then vegans would admit? If so, that is nonsense.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

Reflections on plant neurobiology

Peter W. Barlow

That article is written by a scientist exploring the still vast universe of plants we still need to discover.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

if what Mr Barlow says is correct (and i haven't read it or confirmed or denied it) then it would still make sense to be vegan because 1) we still need to eat to live 2)eating plants directly kills less plants then eating animals directly (the "meat" animal that you consume had to eat a lot of plant material in order to grow large enough to be killed) 3)The plant food we do eat shows no sign of sentience whatsoever, but all the farmed animals do.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

2)Does a cow kill the grass it eats?No it doesn't.Cows are also fed on the numerous leftovers from the crops we don't eat. Eating grass fed cows or other animals is a choice.

3)The plant food has shown evidence of communication between themselves and the ability of "feeling",there is an experiment done by an university in Germany where plants did feel the difference between a harmless drop of water and the harmfull legs of an insect and act on it in seconds with a chemical response.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

2)Leftover crops? 70% of all crops grown in the US end up as animal feed. That's not left over.

3)Plants can't feel anything as they don't have brains, nervous systems, nerve endings, etc. Doesn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint for a plant (which cannot pick up and move itself) to feel things... the whole point of sentience is survival, and since a plant can't move, it can't react to threats.

When was this "experiment"? Show me a peer reviewed study.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

2)ALL the cattle first start of fed on pastures/leftovers till they get to 700/800 pounds.Then some of them are sold to feedlots but not all of them.Even animals fed with grain need 6x more silage then grain or they die of grain poisoning.

3)There are animals without brains to, like seastars,jellyfish,sponges.Mak­ing any comparaison between different living organism on any biological level is quite stupid.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

cows aren't supposed to eat grain whatsoever. The cows in the current system wouldn't live much longer on the diet they are fed (they are horribly sick from the food we fatten them up with).

Most people don't eat animals that don't have brains. Most animals are sentient.

[celt130]

3) Familiarity with one particular lifeform tends to create stereotypes which can be obstructions in a consideratiIn fact, one problem with the term plant neurobiology lies with the stereotypic image of nerves as anatomical attributes peculiar to the organs of sensate, motile animals from mammals to hydra on of features of other lifeforms.Thus, it might seem fanciful to believe that similar structures should exist within the customarily perceived stereotype of insensate and immobile plants.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

But, as we have seen, the existence of some plant analogue of an animal nerve and nervous system might be anticipated. Research generated in the light of the concept of plant neurobiology would, if approached with an open mind, strengthen (or weaken) this possibility. Moreover, the abstract form of Living Systems Theory provides a way of dispelling stereotypes and permits nerves and nervous transmission to be viewed in the light of a universal channel and net subsystem

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

Reflections on plant neurobiology

Peter W. Barlow

Plants and animals have both GABA, why not find out what GABA stands for.Plenty of Google on plant GABA or plant neurotransmitter.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

If veganism can succeed, then the world would change there practices. We would then change the way we create roads, rubber, plastics, how we farm, how we test new drugs, what goes into building materials.

Its not realistic to give up living in society. It IS an easy choice to just stop eating meat/dairy/eggs/fish. I see from your channel that you are passionate about anti veganism, dont know what your agenda is, but i feel that you need to reevaluate what you know about veganism.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth I am not passionate about anti-veganism at all.Everybody has the free choice to do what he pleases without imposing his views to somebody else.I have been around for some time and sadly the arguments most vegans use to justify they supposed moral superiourity on omnivores are based on lies,wrong data or just no common sense at all.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

If you lived in a world where no one had issues with child labour, or slavery, and YOU understood that it was wrong... would you stay silent and let everyone else choose to use children in such a way? Probably not. ITs the same with vegans. We see a moral issue with using and killing sentient animals for no good reason. Its not necessary for health, it not necessary to live, yet we kill billions of animals a year for entertainment and convenience.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth That is the main difference between you and me and other extremists,I don't see the world in black and white.Only extremists see the world that way to justify there actions on that simplistic concept.I believe the world is grey and that "the unique truth" simply doesn't exist."The truth" is very different when you change your own position.Your believes are based on experiences,your childhood,parents and education.All those things vary from one person to another,as makes your "thruth"

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

very true, your upbringing and people you interact with definitely play a part of how you live and your beliefs.

Do you believe that racism, sexism and homophobia are choices people should have? If they were born into a family with these kind of beliefs, would you say that its ok, and they are entirely entitled to spread there discrimination?

[celt130]

@VeganTruth You can educate yourself and go out of your circle.Sadly most vegans only go on vegan sites to find there "truth" without ever looking elsewhere like on scientific sites and where data can be found.My personnel path led me to investigate what vegans use as arguments as they present themselves as being the saviours of the world and the only true moral and ethic people on this planet.I know what happens to vegans when you confront them with scientific data.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

yes there is a lot of misinformation, but that is true on both sides, so to be fair, you must be also critical of scientific data that has a conflict of interest (ie studies done on behalf of industry).

I agree veganism isnt the end all solution to this world's problems, however theres a lot of good going vegan does. The positives definitely out-way any negatives. Its a good start in the right direction and it shouldnt be judged poorly just because of some bad info.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth An omnivore with a moderate meat consumption raised on pastures and without a car will be more ecological then a vegan with a car buying his groceries in a supermarket.Except for the pain issue wich isn't really a moral valid argument any omnivore can be as ecological as any vegan,just a matter of priorities.I use agricultural data from the FAO,IFAD and UNESCO,the rest on serious scientific sites.I am still waiting for any vegan to come with serious scientific data to prove me wrong

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

Very little of the green house gases come from transportation of food. It comes a lot more from the production. Where do you get your stats on omnivore vs vegan (in regards to carbon footprint)?

Why is pain not a valid moral argument? I think that's being dismissive because it doesn't suite your desires.

Please link me directly to your agricultural proof.

Veganism is about morality, not about being green. Even if it wasn't green, it still is the morally consistent choice.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"Very little of the green house gases come from transportation of food. It comes a lot more from the production. Where do you get your stats on omnivore vs vegan (in regards to carbon footprint)?"

That I wouldn't be so sure.A lot of our food travels a lot of miles to get to your plate.

Fields need to be cleared,fertilised,pesticided,­water and big machines every year to produce.Grass fed animals are much more ecological.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

its true that lots of food does travel a long way, however animal production is still farm more environmentally damaging. Even the UN came out and said that animal food production is the #1 cause of green house gases (more then all the trains, planes, cars, trucks put together).

Where did those green grass fields come from? most came from cleared forests. The large majority of animals are not grass fed, and fields of rain forests are cut to plant soy, end up as animal feed.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

All depends in what system they are living. Mixed crop-livestock farming produces around 50% of the meat and 90% of the milk on this planet.The animals are fed on pastures and with farm residues.There manure is used on fields to feed animals and humans.A total natural system.IFAD mixed crop livestock farming

Soy is hardly fed to animals,animals are fed with soymeal,that is a byproduct of making soy oil for humans.99% of all vegetal oil is made of soy.Soymeal is hardly for humans.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

There are plenty of grazing eco systems on this planet like the American prairie,Russian steppe or African savanna.It's normal that forests burn down and become some time grass.Grass feeds also wild animals.

Nature on the other hand nature doesn't produce mono fields.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"Why is pain not a valid moral argument? I think that's being dismissive because it doesn't suite your desires. "

I wonder how any of you can actually know if plants don't feel pain? Plants are on this planet way longer then animals.Plants breath,drink,eat,communicate,f­eel just as any other lifeform on this planet.

In fact animals and humans are just parasites living because plants exist.

Why would only animals have the benefit of pain and not all the other lifeforms?

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

Please, if you are concerned about plants, then you should still go vegan (less plants die in a vegan diet then in an omnivores diet). There is no proof that plants feel or think. They can react to stimulous, and the plants we eat don't react at all. There is no debate that cows, pigs, chickens, fish, etc feel and think.

Plants don't need pain or the ability to sense, because they can't use it for practical purposes: they can't leave if they sense danger.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"Please link me directly to your agricultural proof."

On what issue exactly? 

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

"I use agricultural data from the FAO,IFAD and UNESCO,the rest on serious scientific sites.I am still waiting for any vegan to come with serious scientific data to prove me wrong"

your agricultural proof regarding?

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

It's totally possible to feed the human population on an organic farming scenario using animal manure only without chemical fertilisers. Google "can organic farming feed the world" a Berkeley study.

To my knowledge it's impossible to feed 7 billion people every day on a vegan based agriculture.It can be done on a small scale but not to feed the planet.It's once again an utopia.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

"To my knowledge it's impossible to feed 7 billion people every day on a vegan based agriculture.It can be done on a small scale but not to feed the planet.It's once again an utopia."

Proof?

we already feed 56+ billion additonal land animals with plant food. If we weren't breeding them, we would have a lot more land to feed the 7 billion humans.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

" we already feed 56+ billion additonal land animals with plant food. If we weren't breeding them, we would have a lot more land to feed the 7 billion humans."

I wonder what it takes as ressources for the 50% of the fruit and vegetables we throw away, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for you,with no surprise it's only the bad meat who is a problem.

"Proof?"

No vegan ever provided it could be done,so can you?I proved that it can be done without chemicals with the help of manure.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

of course thrown out food is a problem. Don't presume to know what i think.

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

"we already feed 56+ billion additonal land animals with plant food."

Neither do you take in account the billions of tons of plant material that comes from the stuff humans don't eat.The billions of tons of left-overs from the farms, from the breweries, from the agro-industry and the biofuel industry.But again that isn't a surprise,isn't it.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

i don't understand your point

[celt130]

@VeganTruth

That you don't take in account in your ecological argument the fact billion of tons of crop/fruit/vegetable residues are used to feed animals.Not only there are the farm residues but also the ones from breweries and the ever growing biofuel industry.

Your supposed ecological concern is only targeted against one target and we know wich one.

[VeganTruth]

@celt130

my concern is for morality and ethics. There is no moral justification for killing billions of animal intentionally when we don't have to. The environmental benefits are secondary

[StormFlip]

9:08 If the net pain/suffering that would be prevented with a cure outweighed the pain of those who were experimented on, it would be illogical to prevent such experiments from taking place.

BTW good video :)

[VeganTruth]

@StormFlip

how can you quantify net pain/suffering? How can you say X is worse then Y when you are talking about something as subjective as suffering and pain.

[StormFlip]

@VeganTruth Good question. I don't know how to quantify pain and suffering, but my point was if people will suffer either way (with a cure, w/o a cure), do what would would help the most/hurt the least. Even though pain/suffering cannot be measured a estimate would be acceptable. Also it shouldn't really matter (objectively) who it is being experimented if there is a benefit to the majority of the population. This of-course is hypothetical, and probably too unrealistic to take place.

[VeganTruth]

@StormFlip

That's a slippery slope. By that logic it would be ok to kill healthy humans if it could help society. You get into a numbers game: is it ok to kill one to save 2? How about kill 1000 to save a million? This leads to chaos and to the loss of personal rights and freedom. No one has the right to force you to die for another. We should apply that to non-human animals as well

[StormFlip]

@ 5:50 Barring any emotional attachment to the elderly person I think most would save the younger person b/c its very common / almost natural for majority of humans to try and act in a way that yields the most utility.

The potential of the younger person to develop, be a active member of society, and raise a family is likely what would appeal to most over the elder.

[VeganTruth]

@StormFlip

I really doubt at the moment of rescue, anyone will really be thinking about utility. An emergency situation is not the time to ponder the utility of an individual.

[StormFlip]

@VeganTruth "An emergency situation is not the time to ponder the utility of an individual" Yeah it probably isn't, I was saying why some people may choose (weather subconscious or not) to save the younger person, without intentionally exploiting the elderly.

[StormFlip]

@ 0:55 What was said on the slide may be objectivity true but generally humans are not objective. We act in our best interest, and even when there is a race/sex/or, species negatively effected, our need convenience can often outweigh the cognitive dissonance in our minds.

[VeganTruth]

@StormFlip

perhaps then we need to start behaving more objectively, and be less self centered.

[StormFlip]

@VeganTruth "I agree 100%"