Wow! Way to go, Sam. Its about someone used their brain in explaining the bible in its context; and using the Greek words as well. Many of these muslims foolishly attempt to break down the bible using the english version and come out short handed. They fail to realize that original text is in Greek. They made the same mistake when they try to use that mohammad is in Deutoronomy 18. They didn't go to the Hebrew version and notice it speaks of an Israeli prophet. Sam, what church to do attend?
jesus is clearly not an equal to god even according to the biblical view, all one has to do is interpret the bible in its entirety and they will see jesus doesnt know when the day of judgment is, however as jesus says only the father knows.
only a small amount of new testament quotes jesus himself, and the quotes in general show he is no god of any kind.
@prototype00000 I know, u muslims want to claim both right? u want to claim that Jesus never said he was God in the Bible, but u also want to claim that christians changed the Bible by making Jesus into God right? Unfortunately for u muslims, both claims cannot be true because if christians changed the Bible then u have to explain why Jesus never said he is God in the Bible. So its illogical to think both these claims can be true.
i understand what your trying to say but my initial post was kept very simple and is based on only what is there as talking about alterations is another long story
that being said there are very few quotes of jesus to begin with in the NT, only roughly 10% of the NT are apparently his words, which would mean not even 1% of the whole bible
unless you say as god he wrote the OT but then he sounds violent. so its not us who try having it both ways by claiming he is man/god
@prototype00000 What Jesus said has been recorded.. what u think about it doesn't matter.. My point still stands, if christians changed the Bible by making Jesus into God then they could have easily and most likely, they would have put words into Jesus mouth in which he claimed to be God.. I don't know if ur muslim but muslims dont even have a clue what Jesus words were.. all they know is that part of Jesus message was that there is one God. "one God" is only 2 words.
@prototype00000 First of all, Lord doesn't necessarily mean God.. secondly Jesus was indeed both Rabbi and Lord, also a prophet, Savior, Messiah and King. Provide evidence that Matthew changed it anything..
So are u telling me that thats basically it? That Matthew referred to him as Lord there and Mark as Rabbi? Is that what leads u to believe that the whole account of everything that led to the crucifixion etc is all made up? That the prophets prophecied it doesn't also matter?
now all adults can see what has happened here as peter could have only said either lord OR rabbi so these qutes in the text are inaccurate
if lord doesnt mean god then that means whenever jesus is mentioned as being a LORD in the bible, that doesnt have to mean god. so again its not me trying to have it both ways
@prototype00000 U do realise that ur arguement is based on a english translation right? And i still don't see ur point because Jesus was both Rabbi and Lord according to our belief. Well, i never claimed that Jesus is God because he is referred to as Lord at times..
okay fine do you know what the original greek bible says? is it rabbi or lord?
i would assume that these are different meanings in original languages too. also as far as i knew jesus spoke aramaic and NT is greek so we dont have the original format anyway
also i dont reject everything that happened until crucifixion, i reject paul & the apostles version of jesus being god & dying for our sins as it makes no sense for him to die for us all anyway, bible text or no bible text
ill ask you if you can really make sense of it. the account is that jesus died for the sins of mankind
however if he died for the sins of mankind, then as a christian why can you still be punished?
the only way you can be punished is if he never actually saved you...so sacrifice makes no sense at all. if he never saved anyone then what is the point?
@prototype00000 Jesus made it possible for someone to be saved.. he didnt save anyone he made it possible, he provided the way to salvation by taking the punishment. U ask why then can christians still be punished.. well, once a criminal for example accepted Jesus, his sins are forgiven if he is sincere, but after that he cannot stay a criminal.. one has to follow Jesus teachings to keep salvation. So that would be my answer to that
ive found different christians have different views of how salvation works which would mean there is no official teaching specifically detailing it
as for your account if he only made it possible for us to be saved then that would mean god (jesus) made us and cursed us for no reason of our own, dont you see a problem with that?
what about the people before jesus came to earth? this means they are screwed
@prototype00000 No thats wrong, we cursed ourselves by our own sins.. Jesus said if u look at a woman with lust u have committed adultery in ur heart.. do u think there is one man on earth who hasnt committed that sin? And what was the punishment for adultery according to the Law? It was death right? Jesus fullfilled the Law by remaining free from sin and sacrificing his body which also fullfilled the sacrificial system that was part of the Law in Leviticus.
@prototype00000 But thats not my version, its wrong, lemme explain.. I don't believe that the sins of people are a direct result of God removing Adam and Eve from the garden.. although we have inherited a weak sinful nature with the knowledge of what is good and what is evil.. that happened right after Adam and Eve ate from that tree, because after that their eyes were openened and their pure sinless nature was corrupted.. we are born with that nature but without having sinned
you say we were born in that corrupt nature, but me and you are alive 2000 years after jesus. now as you believe jesus saved everyone 2000 years ago, how can you be born in that corrupt nature if jesus came and made it all better?
does this mean all the people that lived before jesus were condemned and could not be saved? (including the prophets & their followers from old testament)
@prototype00000 I think i answered these 2 questions already.. perhaps u haven't read all of my last replies yet? Anyway, Jesus did not do anything about the corrupt nature that people are still born with.. he only provided salvation for people. And those people b4 Jesus were probably saved by keeping the Law which involved sacricifing animals to make atonement for their sins just like Jesus made atonement on the cross to fullfill that practice or part of the Law.
@prototype00000 Well, there is much to say about this but im not an expert regarding this particular subject.
But it is quite possible that people were saved by repenting and sacrificing animals for their sins.. but u have to understand that God commanded Jews to sacrifice animals for a reason.. which was that the punishment for sin came down on the animal instead of a person. The Bible says that God wrote the Law in the hearts of people and that has also the do with Jesus fullfilling the Law.
what will happen is you will be forced to make up your own accounts as there is no official teachings. i have spoken to many christians & nobody actually knows what jesus saved them from exactly
to claim the jews sacrificed animals i dont think works as muslims sacrifice lambs too, jews never put the emphasis on sacrifice as christians do which is why they reject sacrifice of jesus. infact the jews/romans took jesus to be murdered & not sacrificed as there was no sacrifice
@p Well, Jesus saved those who follow his teachings from the punishment for sin which was death..
Well, the Jews did not sacrifice animals for the same reasons as muslims do. The Jews did it for several reasons, & one of them was to make atonement for their sins.. but i already explained that in my other comments.
Well, now ur appealing to those Jews who Jesus called children of Satan and hypocrits at times. The fact that many Jews rejected Jesus only shows that they rejected their scriptures
@prototype00000 So by the Jews practicing and believing in the law and the prophets..in essence they were believing in Jesus, because the law and the prophets attest to Him as their foretold redeemer. So when Jesus(The word) was here amongst us..it was no longer about following the WRITTEN law but the LIVING law who was Jesus. And as the written law provided temporary covering the living law provides eternal covering, because He is the fulfillment of that law..all
@prototype00000 all those who have died before Jesus were in Abrahams Bosom, which is located somewhere near hell..but those who were in Abrahams bosom weren't just good Jews..they sincerely believed/had faith in the Messiah who will completely redeem them and restore them back into the glory of the Father! So whether you died before or after Jesus..Jesus's purpose was anticipated and believed..so during the 3 day period..Jesus reclaimed those who have passed back unto Him!
@prototype00000 But in islam Allah did not say "BE" for Jesus.. he send an angel (Djbril) who started blowing into Mary and thats how she got pregnant.. thats what i know, i don't think Quran says Allah said "BE" for creating Jesus.
i was going but i got time now, anyway god says BE and jesus is created, then the spirit of jesus is taken to mary by gabriel (jibreel) is how i read it
dont christians say the holy ghost came here to impregnate mary? if so then ghost was not god (which is why no trinity is mentioned in bible) but he was infact gabriel which is where the confusion occurs
@prototype00000 Well, that verse says that Jesus was a word and spirit from Allah.. whatever that word was it doesnt specifically say that that word was "BE" but anyway..
What makes u think the Holy Ghost is not God? The verse indeed says that the Holy Spirit will come upon her and the power of the Most High will overshadow her.. Why would God need an angel to come upon Mary to impregnate her if the word "BE" is sufficient? U see arguements can be drawn from several points about everything
bible is all about jesus and the father so what has the ghost actually done to be worthy of god? it sounds more like its running errands to me. also i dont understand how 3 gods can also be 1 god
how do you think ghost/god impregnated mary?
i don't think god needs to do anything i just think he does things the way he chooses. i know jesus has no father so i know he was created specially (BE)
i know mary was virgin yet she was impregnated specially to have a human child
@prototy But also, it was the angel Gabriel that brought the message to Mary that she was about to receive a Holy son infact he said son of God - and he said the Holy Spirit would come upon her.. he didnt say i will come upon you to Mary, or i will insert a spirit into you to impregnate you.. But regarding the Holy Spirit there are several views held regarding His identity.. most christians say He is the 3rd divine person of the Trinity and others say He is just God Himself, His power in action
@protot Well, yes everyone living under the Law was condemned to death because the punishment for sin is death.. in Ezekiel it says the soul that sinneth shall die.. Even God told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the tree and disobeyed Him they would die. So u see the coherence in the Bible? From the very beginning right up to Jesus taking the punishment for sins on the cross, the punishment which was death all along. Put it all together and see how Muhammad contradicts it all on a huge scale
best thing to do is look at luke 11.29, it says jesus will be like jonah. it then says that jonah was in the whale for 3 days n 3 nights so jesus will be in the earth for 3 days n 3 nights
thing is though the christian story then says he was buried from friday afternoon to sunday morning which can be 3 days, but only 2 nights so it doesnt work
the only way he can be like jonah is that jonah never died, we say jesus never died. it serves no purpose for him to die
@prot well for a explanation of the sign of Jonah which was indeed the 3 days n nights, i urge u to look it up on the internet.. the time can be calculated according to what jews considered to be a day, and there is also the preperation of the passover that plays a role in why it was indeed 3 days n nights..
But so u think Jesus was on the cross but he somehow survived it like Jonah survived being in the big whale? If u believe Jesus was put on the cross but survived, that doesnt make sense
you can argue days, but how can anyone claim friday night and saturday night makes 3 nights? it is clearly 2 nights and nobody in history has ever counted it any different
it should make sense to you jesus ascended from the cross as he said he would ascend in john 20.17. i am isolating the verse for you for a reason
we cant work out what exactly he would have saved us from anyway even if he did die for us, there is no bible verse or words from jesus as far as i know
@prototype00000 Well, for a indepth explanation regarding the sign of Jonah u should google it.. i once read an excellent indept, quite long explanation.
It doesnt make sense to me because if God wanted to save Jesus then why would he allow him first to be tortured almost to death and put on a cross to be mocked before saving him eventually from death (bloody)
This is what ahmadiya muslims believe..
According to the NT Jesus died to save us from the punishment for sin which was death.
here is the thing, god never allowed jesus to be tortured at all that is the christian account of sacrifice. quran says (4.157) how god replaced jesus with someone else. he did not do that to prophet jesus to be mocked or tortured like that, jesus is one of the five major prophets who is closest to god
ahmadiya are not muslims lol, to me they are worse then jews and major non believers. they claim to follow another prophet a couple of hundred yrs back who died on a toilet
@p But u believe Jesus was indeed on the cross but he survived it? Or did i get the wrong impression?
Because u either believe Jesus himself was on the cross or someone else in his place.. if the latter then that would lead to several other pretty big problems.. the idea that God changed the look of Judas into Jesus appearance makes God into a deceiver which resulted in Mary, the disciples and everyone else to believe Jesus was indeed crucified.
quran doesnt give specifics it tells us what we need to know. all we need to know is that they wanted to murder him & took him to the cross but god replaced jesus
we dont know who was on the cross nor do we care, but we know it wasnt jesus. god never deceived the followers of jesus as they knew he would ascend its in your own bible he said he would ascend
again dying serves no purpose, i still am not sure what you think he actually saved us from. you say dying but we all die
@prototype00000 So u believe the soldiers came and arrested Jesus and before they put him on the cross he magically was changed into another person? I'm not saying that God cannot do that but im just asking and i don't think God would do that and certainly dont believe that He did that.
U said they knew he would ascend.. but they also knew he was going to the cross and that his blood would be shed for the forgiveness of sin etc etc..
By dying Jesus took our punishment thats our belief.
i dont know if jesus was subbed before they put him on a cross or after that is not told. but i know he wasnt tortured and mocked.
if you think jesus is god then you think god mocked himself?
also you would need to think who died if he was tortured? did god sacrifice himself or his son?
you say jesus took your punishment which off course is what all christians tell me, however how can he have taken anyones punishment if you can still be punished?
@prototype Well, Jesus was on earth as a human with a human body and in the form of a servant.. and yes we believe he was mocked and tortured.. Regarding his identity, i believe "son" refers to his humanity instead of the second person of the Trinity.. Regarding God sacricificing himself, u should realise that the Father without a doubt never died and thus never sacrificed anything.. It was Jesus human body which was the sacrifice for sins as Jesus himself said "the living bread is his flesh"
@protot Well, ur asking me to answer for God now.. i cannot answer for God what He feels.. what we do know and believe is that Jesus experienced pain in his humanity.. i understand u wanna extend that feeling of pain to the Father.. but i cannot explain if and how the Father experienced that since he was not in human form on earth on the cross. But the reason for the point in my last comment is that it seems muslims think that God in Christianity died and somehow seized to exist, which is wrong.
@prototype00000 Well a clear verse would be when Jesus is having a last meal with his disciples and when he says "this is my blood that will be shed for the forgiveness of sins"
By dying on the cross Jesus fullfilled the Law, the Law under which everyone is considered a sinner and worthy of death.. remember the animal sacrifices for sins that was part of the Law? Jesus fullfilled all of it including over a 100 Messianic prophecies.
ok so if jesus himself said his blood will shed forgiveness for sins then why can chrisitans still be punished?
this means he hasnt actually saved you from sins as you still pay for your sins
i realise you said earlier how he never saved you but made it possible to save yourself, but bible scripture doesn't say that so i think thats just your own version and not the bible version so it doesn't count
as he never actually saved anyone this makes sacrifice pointless
@prototype00000 Well, i told u.. Jesus only took the punishment so that we can go to heaven.. if we dont accept it and dont want to follow Jesus teachings then we will pay for our own sins with death and eternal seperation from God.
So u actually think that the Bible doesnt teach why Jesus went to the cross? U really think Jesus never said anything about why he was going to the cross? I gave u a very significant verse in which Jesus said that his blood will be shed for forgiveness of sins..
but again if you accept he died to save you from punishment then why can you still be punished?
i know you said he only made it possible to go heaven, if you look at rom 5.14 it seems like it condemns every man from adam to jesus to "death", now assuming "death" means punishment in the afterlife it would mean all people until jesus were all condemned to hell
what does "death" actually mean? because they were all condemned to it
@prototype00000 Without punishment there is no justice.. thats why those who do not follow Jesus teachings or have not even accepted him as savior, they will pay for their own sins. But the reason why Jesus took the punishment is because God demands perfection.. He doesn't want sinners in heaven, He wanted us to live sinless and be Holy.. thats how God intended it when He created humans.. he created them sinless and He gave the Law so that people would follow it. But no one could keep the Law
again though why do you say jesus paid for our sins, but then we also pay for our own sins
for example as you said earlier looking at a woman is a sin according to jesus, so what happens if someone keeps doing it, does he pay for it or did jesus pay for it already?
now if jesus pays then he gets away with it, but at least then we know jesus saved him........but if he pays for it then it would mean he has not saved him so sacrifice has not benefited him at all & he's not saved
@prototype00000 Well, looking at a woman with lust is a sin.. if a christian keeps doing it while he should be following Jesus then yes he is sinning.. but God is merciful thats why He send Jesus in the first place.. We do believe that God forgives sin.. but not if we are going to rape woman and kill people untill we die and then expect God to be merciful to us because we accepted Jesus.. thats not how it works. As a christian u have to do ur best to follow Jesus.. one has to be sincere.
@prototype00000 Well, u have to read the whole Bible not just one verse from Romans to get the full understanding.
This verse simply says that anyone including sinners who will accept Jesus as Savior will be saved.. but that does not mean that that gives him a free ticked to live the most wicked life. Jesus said not everyone who calls me Lord will enter the kingdom.
i have read the bible, it is large & am happy for you to remind me of relevant versus as i cannot remember it all off course
if i pinpoint a verse you are free to show me why i should not, however to tell me to ignore it and read the whole bible i think leads to dismissal of the verse, which would make it irrelevant. im sure you dont think that any part of the scripture is irrelevant
@prototype00000 I think u are sincere and thats the reason i try to explain and answer u.. and ur right.. But here is the thing, the Bible teach us that sin equals death.. sin is what seperates us from God.. therefor the punishment for many sins was death according to Gods Law. But even though we are dead in our sins, God is merciful and forgive sin over and over again out of His love and out of His love He also send Jesus for us. I hope u understand what im getting at here..
you say it doesn't mean there is a free ticket which i agree with...so then it comes back to if someone keeps looking at women there is infact a possibility he may not actually get away with it. im sure you agree god is the judge end of the day & we cannot take anything for granted
so how can we say jesus saved anyone when at the end of the day god is still the judge, jury and executioner?
@prototype00000 Well, we see in the BIble that God forgives sin right? He forgives sin over and over there are many verses about the forgiveness of God, but i would have to look them up myself so maybe u can do that urself. But thats a fact. God does forgive out of His love.. He knows we are weak and sinners thats why He send Jesus to live that perfect sinless life to meet His standart of perfection. So He does forgive but what was the punishment for murder? It was death.. So can we go murder?
@prototype00000 So God does forgive if we look at woman.. God even said we have to forgive others (cant remember how many times) But if we have to forgive others over and over again.. why would God not do the same? So if a christian looks at a woman with lust many times God will forgive him many times.. But looking at a woman is not the same as raping a woman or killing people.. u see how it works? There are major sins and small sins but in the end God is merciful but also just.
@p Someone who is sincere and wants to obey God and wants to go to heaven he will love God and trust God. But do u really think that the Bible teach us that God will forgive even those who do not trust God? Even those who kill, rape, steal, lie, do drugs?? Come on man.. this is not what the Bible teach us. I understand ur critical about the Bible which is good but u should also focus on the larger picture, learn more, and look at muhammad & islam critical like this & u will find tons of problems
@prototype00000 But ur wrong about this.. i have replied and tried to explain why this is wrong to u several times aleady now.. i honestly can't explain it better or more.. i suggest u read my last replies also if u have not read em yet.. try to understand what i said.. i think my replies were clear enough regarding salvation and God's forgiveness and the need for Jesus going to the cross etc i think i answered it to the best of my understanding and knowledge.
what you say makes sense in that small sins and big sins are miles apart, only thing is i cannot find in the bible where it says jesus saved small sinners and he never saved big sinners, if its not in the christians scripture anywhere then there is no reason to accept it
all thats in the scripture is that all who call are saved
do you think if a christian man watches porn, gets high, has illegal sex etc he will be 100% forgiven as long as he doesn't kill/rape?
@prototype00 But u have to allow harmonization of what the Bible says.. ur now looking only at one verse in Romans, ur problem is basically that u are no realizing that the punishment for sin is death in the Bible and ur not aware yet of the verses that speak about Gods forgiveness.. once u get to that realization it will allow u to see the bigger picture to harmonize what the Bible teaches about all this.. i did my best to explain it to u.. and so i suggest again to read my replies carefully.
ok fine, but if you felt i was only looking at one verse then you were free to show me another verse. if we cannot find another verse then we should go by this, although if another verse said something different then it could lead to a contradiction which would make matters more complex
that aside now what do you mean when you say punishment for sin is death? now we all die off course whether we are sinners or not so what does this exactly mean?
@prototype00000 there is a first death which is when a human dies, and second death which is the punishment in hell.. but i don't believe in a eternal hell, i don't think God is so unjust to send someone to be tortured endlessly, this is one of the problems i have with islam. The punishment for sin is the first death.. a murderer according to the Law had to be put to death. Death is what seperates us from eternal life in heaven with God.
as far as i know your version of hell is not backed up by bible scripture in terms of eternal hell, so for all you know it is eternal. if i am wrong you can show me the scripture
i do know jesus says that most will fail and go to the gates of destruction (matt 7.13-14) which i agree with
you say the punishment for sin is first death, is this from the bible or is it a later christian belief?
@prototype00000 What does the Old Testament teach about hell? Do u know any verse about eternal hell from the Old Testament? But look for example this video watch?v=UA5bAnbDDGA
Well, what was the punishment for adultery and murder according to the Law of Moses? Death right? Ezekiel says the soul that sinneth shall die.. God told Adam and Eve if they ate from the forbidden tree they would die..
i dont know any verse about eternal hell from the old testament, but i dont know where any verse says it isnt either as there doesnt seem to be much info on it. does it say people go from hell into heaven? i dont like watching these vids i think its better to look at scripture as then we know if its there or not
adultery was death, so maybe i never understood you. are you saying that people are now saved from the punishment of adultury as they do not die anymore?
@prototype00000 Yes God does forgive adultery but how many times? U need to ask God because i don't know.. but the punishment for adultery is done away with after Jesus took the punsishment for sin on the cross. So something changed. The Law is still there but Jesus fullfilled it thats where this goes back to.
@prototype00000 I suggest u look it up what it means exactly that Jesus fullfilled the Law and what effect it had on the Law that was given to Moses.. it seems to me ur asking some of these questions for the first time without having looked for answers urself on sites or in the Bible.. The law said "thou shall not kill" Jesus fullfilled the Law but that doesnt mean we can now go kill everyone.. Go to a site these things are explained on practically every christian site.
it seems that christianity is using the theme of sacrifice to make life easier in terms of law. there is so much leniency claimed that a christian can technically watch porn, rob a bank, get high, spend the money on hookers & there is certainly no punishment here, nor is it likely he will be punished there
i guess this is why paul claimed the curse of the law is no more, you are free
the only thing is nowhere does it say you can look at women but not kill, its made up belief
@prototype00000 No it has nothing to do with making life easier.. when did i ever said that? I never said a christian can watch porn, or rob a back that is ur interpretation.. i said God can forgive those sins just like in islam. Or are u telling me that Allah cannot forgive those sins? And i also told u that God can certainly punish people in this life and after life.. this is all in the Bible.
i know you never said a christian can watch porn, rob a bank, spend the money on hookers & get high, but i know a christian who did that. he believes in christ as his saviour, he told me jesus said anyone who calls will be saved (romans 10.13)
i told him that he is acting like he has a free ticket. he told me romans 5.13 says there is no punishment if there is no law, he said romans 6.15 says there is no more law...
so now law hence no punishment...i told him even i know christins do not say this, however when i checked the scripture he was correct these versus exist, this is exactly what st paul said
so if there is no law and just grace, there is no punishment...pauls words say this
yet you tell me you can still be punished in this world.....NT christian scripture does not agree with you
@prototype00000 Obviously that guy didnt know he had to follow Jesus teachings in order to get to heaven. I already told u to be a good christian one has to follow Jesus teachings. The person ur speaking of didnt do it so God will judge him for that.
you claim he never followed the teachings of jesus, but he told me he followed scripture....when i checked it he was correct it is in the christian scripture what he said (no law just grace, no punishment if no law etc)
so why do you say he did wrong by not following jesus, when in reality all he did was follow paul?
@prototype00000 Well, then u believe that he is right.. i cannot help u or explain more.. if u think he was a good christian and that he followed Jesus teachings then believe that. Its good to follow Paul but u also have to follow Jesus. So stop twisting the truth of all these matters please otherwise this discussion has ended.
ok this part of the topic seems to have come to an end so i wont continue with it, however in his case it wasn't jesusormuhammad it was jesusORpaul?
he followed pauls scripture and words, which meant he never followed nor lived anything like jesus & that's a fact
but you should know i never twisted anything as we can read the scripture ourselves & i even referenced it all, its not isolated as its written a few times & i cant find anything else to abrogate it
@prototype You dont allow for harmonization of what the Bible including Paul and Jesus teach.. u like that person ur speaking off.. based their understanding on one or 2 verses from Paul and failed to follow Jesus teachings. Paul never said u dont have to follow Jesus teachings.. So the problem doesnt lie with Paul but with ur understanding and sellective use of the teachings of Paul. I told u that a person has to follow Jesus teachings Paul doesnt contradict that even though u may think he did
@prototype00000 Circumsision was part of the Law and Jesus fullfilled the Law.. by holding on to the Law they were rejecting the fact that Jesus fullfilled the Law. Pauls writings are all based on the fact that Jesus fullfilled the Law and scriptures.
i have read full chapters, where do you think im getting all this from? you wont find any websites which are saying what im asking i am thinking for myself & questioning the words of paul & what he meant
if you dont agree with it then its pauls words you don't agree with, if you tell me to ignore them & read more it wont make these many versus i referenced disappear, i cant isolate these many versus he said these things many times
@p Well, its very common for muslims to misunderstand what Paul wrote..& i gave u a very brief answer.. Paul is teaching people that Jesus fullfilled the Law & what that means. Go to google and search why christians do not circumsize. Im sure u will find a good answer in no time. Now let me ask u something, where does the quran speak about circumcision? Where does the quran explain why its important to circumsize? Because if its so important in islam there should be something about it in quran.
@prototype00000 First of all, circumcision was a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham. The gentiles have nothing to do with it.. so why do muslims do it? Where does the quran explain the importance of it? And during Jesus life the Law was in place and still unfullfilled thats why certain things still needed to be followed but once the Law was fullfilled things changed. Even quran says Jesus came to made somethings halal that were forbidden before.
@prototype00000 u need to read full chapters to see what Paul is talking about. Ur quoting one verse that u obviously are misinterpreting. Go read the full chapter and chapter before it..
@prototype00000 But i can also ask u a question regarding this.. islam teaches that everyone who becomes muslim and takes shahada, all his sins are gone, forgiven, whiped away right? So if a criminal or a rapist takes shahada his sins are forgiven right?
i think in christianity if someone turns to the religion & is "born again" they have a clean slate no matter what they do, that is similar to the shahada in that if they come to islam its a clean slate, but that wasn't what i was talking about
im looking at specifically the sacrifice of jesus in relation to all this & we have now come to the conclusion that end of the day sacrifice or no sacrifice it comes down to god being the judge
@prototype00000 Well God has always been the judge so thats nothing new.. But thats why i said God will judge us by looking on judgement day wether or not we have atleast accepted Jesus as savior.. without faith in Jesus death and resurrection we are doomed already.. we will die in our sins thats what we believe.. so u eiter pay for ur own sins or accept Jesus as savior and do ur best to live a good life.
on judgment day god will know i accepted jesus as the prophet, not as a saviour as for him to be a saviour he would have to save me from something & i cant see anything he could possibly have saved me from. i dont consider abolishing the death penalty allowing me to commit a crime
i know a christian criminal (not killer) who never got punished in this world, he lived it rich and happy & died in his 60s, so you cant say people will certainly get punished here cos he never did
@prototype00000 Well, according to Christianity everyone who rejects what Jesus did on the cross is condemned already.. those who reject the crucifixion and resurrection will die in their sins. I know ur muslim and dont believe he died but thats ur choice to believe.
Well, so ur saying Allah didnt punish him in this life.. what about the after life? Im sure God will judge him. and on that we can agree.
i would assume he would get punished, but then where is the salvation for him? jesus did not save him....do you see what im getting at....once again he needed to save himself
just because jesus removed the death penalty that never saved anyone...it only made matters worse as now we are more likely to commit sin....
you even think he is going to be punished in the afterlife so he was not saved in anyway. there was no salvation in christ for him
@prototype00000 Why do u keep going on and on about "saved" and "salvation" I already told without accepting Jesus we can never be saved and by accepting Jesus there is a good chance to be saved unless ur going around acting like u got a free ticked to rape every woman on the street or other wicked things.. ur still obviously not understand what i said. So how did Jesus save us? He saved us by taking the punishment and without accepting him we can never be saved thats why we say he is salvation.
@prototype00 For example Jesus said if u look at a woman with lust u have sinned right? He did not say that this sin was a unforgivable sin u see what i mean? It doesnt say God does not forgive those who look at woman.. thats why i urge u to study the forgiveness of God and His love for us and also which sins God did forgive in the past.. once u get to know all about this, u understand it.
@prototype00 Committing adultery was a major sin according to the Law and the punishment was death for it.
But watching porn, getting high allthough they are sins and possibly big sins in the eyes of God, it doesn't mean God cannot forgive those.. He does forgive and is merciful so how many of those sins it takes exactly before God will not forgive i don't know. All i know is that we have to do our best to keep a good relationship with God, He wants us to obey out of love not out of fear also..
again it seems what you say regarding sins is very sensible, however i cant see any salvation through jesus in any of this. when we are talking about sins we are considering what is a large sin, what is a small sin etc. it comes down to what god forgives and he does not & you said yourself how many times he forgives we don't know.
jesus does not come into it so sacrifice has not helped. the judgment awaits sacrifice or no sacrifice we just dont know, we need to save ourselves
@prototype00000 "jesus does not come into it so sacrifice has not helped."
But ur saying this as if there is a problem with it.. which is not the case as i explained why Jesus went to the cross and what the Bible teaches about sin and God's forgiveness etc allthough i asked u to look up the verses about God's forgiveness urself. But in a sense ur right.. Jesus did not save anyone, He fullfilled the Law to meet Gods standart of perfection for us.
there is a problem with it as its not changed anything in terms of salvation
the only thing you can claim is he ended the law to make it easy on people, however his words in matt 5.17 as you know say he is not here to abolish the law so again his words don't match the story
you think islamic hell is harsh, but god punishing jesus to save the guilty is not? even then you don't know if 100% saved as there is no free ticket
@prototype00000 Ur not thinking this through correctly i see.. perhaps the best thing to do is go to some websites for better and more in depth answers.. as i said i cannot explain it better then i already have.. i do know however that there is more to all of this then i explained. So go to some websites where all the relative verses are referenced.
But Jesus did not ended the Law, he fullfilled it.. by remaining free from sin till death on the cross. Jesus took the punishment willingly.
ok so according to you sacrifice has saved you from capital punishment (first death)
based on this it seems jesus would have saved people from the punishment of sins on earth but the afterlife remains unknown
it seems christianity is preaching a religion where immorality is condemned, but even if you do so what? there isnt any punishment on earth, & you will probably be forgiven anyway in most christians opinion. it seems very close a a free ticket
@prototype00000 But ur doing constandly is over simplifying all these things.. u cannot simplify it like ur doing.
Yes, the punishment for adultery has done away with in Christianity.. but someone who keeps committing adultery God can certainly punish that person in this life, or guide him to Himself if he wasnt a follower of Jesus yet.
God forgives but as i said im not God i cannot tell u how many sins it takes before God doesnt forgive.
@prototype00000 Jesus lived the perfect sinless life as God had intended it when He created Adam and Eve sinless and perfect. God wants us to be Holy Leviticus 19:2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy"
Jesus was Holy, born from a virgin by the will of God.. lived as a perfect example for us and fullfilled the Law that no one did or could according to both old & new testament. U need to really think about these things.
@prototype00000 Its not like after u accepted Jesus u cannot sin anymore.. we are not perfect like Jesus.. but God is merciful He does forgive sins. Jesus was merely saying that looking with lust at a woman is a sin too.. that doesnt mean that God never forgives that sin.. God does forgive sin not only in islam.. But God wants us to do our best to not sin he wants us to repent and keep a good relationship with Him and also that we accept Jesus who lived a sinless life for us.
@p Everyone is a sinner including all prophets.. Jesus said none is good. If he said none then he means none, however himself not included for several reasons, only Jesus was sinless and came to fullfill the Law.
By accepting Jesus as savior we can become spiritual adpoted children of God. We can be born again through the Holy Spirit & those who accepted Jesus will be clothed on judgement day in the righteousness and perfection of Jesus. Thats why Jesus said no one comes 2 the Father exep by me
@protot So yes, Jesus human body experienced pain.. we can also ask if his spirit felt pain? I dont think his spirit felt pain but only his human body, his humanity.. and since the Father is not human, we don't believe that He was on the cross and experienced death
i dont think anyone can rationalise the trinity and how one god can/cannot feel pain at the same time. the point is to work out if there is one god, or a 3 in 1 god
why do you think in the thousands & thousands of pages of the bible a trinity is not once mentioned? or no mention of a 3 god or 3 in 1 god?
we know the OT text comes from jewish preservation, we also know that they reject & always have rejected a trinity which means they never found it in the OT either
@prototype000 Well, u want to understand everything about God but regarding many things about God, we just have to accept it on faith.. we dont understand everything about God's being thats just the way it is.. He exists outside of our reality and understanding. So u can ask about the Trinity but someone can ask you how Allah processes all the information about whats happening in every persons life.. how can we explain His eyes and hands and all his attributes? How does His power work? And so on
@prototype000 Well, if the Trinity isnt mentioned then that in my view is also evidence that the Bible was never changed to suit Christian ideas.. u can't have ur cake and eat it too. Either Trinity is teached in the Bible cos Bible was changed or Trinity is not in the Bible taught and is therefor evidence that the Bible wasn't changed.
@JesusOrMuhammad you tell me that i cant say bible is altered if there is no trinity mentioned but that doesnt explain why no trinity or a 3 god is mentioned in the thousands of pages of the bible. infact ironically enough the very first commandment is a simple one god belief which i infact agree with as the prime ideology
also having no trinity doesn't mean bible isn't altered, that would be a fallacy as we would have to ignore everything else based on this
one way i can out it is if i had a debt of £1000, and my saviour paid it for me then that debt would be written off
but if my saviour paid my debt of £1000 and i still had to pay it then it would make it pointless for the saviour to have paid it for me, infact the debtor would recieve double payment for no reason
this is what sacrifice is, it claims jesus paid for your sins but then it claims you still pay for your sins
that means it was no point for jesus to pay the debt
@prot Yes thats logical.. but in my previous comment i tried to explain it however there is much more to it then i can even explain.. But God created sinless humans, and only one sin got them kicked out of the garden or heaven which was a Holy place.. one sin was enough.. All descendans of Adam were sinners, remember Cain and Abel? One killed the other. God wants us to be Holy Leviticus 19:2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy"
@prot Leviticus 19:2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." God wants us 2 be Holy and He gave the Law.. but everyone is a sinner except Jesus in the Bible.
And by accepting Jesus, God will not look at our sins on judgement day but if we have Jesus who was sinless in our hearts. God standart is perfection, holyness, He wants us to be holy before going to heaven which is also a holy place. I hope i get what im saying so far..
@prototype00000 I believe Jesus literally came down from heaven as God or a unique being with divine attributes.
To fullfill the Law and with that, provide salvation for mankind.. I believe Jesus body was the sacrifice for sin because thats what he himself said.. his human body died on the cross which he even later himself raised back to life. Jesus said destroy this temple (his body) and i will raise it up in 3 days.
@prototyp Regarding those living before Jesus, I don't know everything about it to explain it, however i do know that Jesus is the word of God.. so those living before Jesus also received that word of God.. so in a interesting way, those people receievd Jesus (the word) and believed it.. But also, Jews had to make atonement for their sins thats how they escaped the wrath of God.. This was also to point to the comming Messiah which would make atonement for the sins of mankind as it was prophecied
i cannot find anywhere in the bible which says what you do about sacrifice..in that he died so we can save ourselves. where did you get that info from?
also paul said
romans 6.15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
so the question is what happens to the christian who does sin? because there is no law to break as paul says we are not under law..... so how can you be punished if you do not break law?
@prototyp Well, Jesus clearly said we have to follow his teachings, his commandments.. he also said not everyone who calls him Lord will enter the kingdom of God.. and that refers to those who do accept Jesus and do some good things but live wicked lifes at the same time.. Well, there is a Law but Jesus fullfilled it and not only that, he summarized the 10 commandments in just 2 by saying love God and love your neighbore as yourself (even ur enemies) So we still have to follow things of the Law
@prototype00000 We still have to follow the Law with regard to not killing anyone, not committing adultery etc.. Jesus even set certain commandments on a higher plain, for example regarding adultery.. the Law only spoke about real adultery but Jesus said if u only looked at a woman with lust u have already committed adultery in ur heart.. So he was setting the standart of the Law even higher and revealing deeper truths about matters. I hope u get what im saying.
its easier to alter or remove a quote then it is to add another whole new quote
for example christians did try to add the word trinity at one stage but they got caught as you probably know and it was then taken out again
so when you ask why didnt they just add a quote of jesus saying he is god, this would be why...people knew he never said it & they would have got caught as frauds. otherwise no doubt they would have done that too if they could have got away with it
@prototype00000 Now ur giving a nonsensical arguement.. because basically ur admitting that it was not possible to change Jesus words without being caught.. don't u see? And what about the crucifixion then? If that was made up they would have known it too right? Do u want me to believe that altering some quotes is the same as inventing whole chapters that tell us in great detail about everything before and after the crucifixion? Ur view doesnt add up
what im saying is with NT alterations they could not outright add a new verse of jesus saying he is god i accept that, think about it what is the most important part of the NT? what were people paying most attention to? the words of jesus...so it would have been most difficult to invent entire new sentences & present them as quotes of jesus
you want me to be at an extreme end of saying everything can be altered or nothing can be altered but there is a sensible middle ground
@prototype00000 Well, but again, ur view doesnt make sense.. ur also contradicting urself it seems.. because ur saying that people knew what Jesus said and therefor it was not possible to misquote Jesus to change his words.. So apply this logic to every chapter in the New Testament and everything Jesus said about his crucifixion etc and whats the logical conclusion?
i said it is more difficult to alter words of jesus, not that it was impossible. but you have to take into account ALTERING a quote and INVENTING a whole verse & saying jesus said it are 2 whole separate issues.
here is what i think about crucifixion, jesus says in john 20.17 he is going to ascend to god, he never said he is going to die. now this verse matches the islamic version that he will not die but simply ascend
@prototype00000 So now ur going to quote Jesus sellectively to support the islamic view? That method doesnt work either and i don't like to see someone take that approach either. So dont do that please.. u cant just take one saying of Jesus and isolate it from many other sayings and surrounding context.. the context surrounding Jesus sayings are they to all altered or made up according to u? This view of urs is again highly irrational in my opinion
@prototype00000 Well, Jesus said he came down from heaven and he said he shared in the glory with the Father before the world was made.. so one has to explain how Jesus can share in that glory and what that glory stands for.. Also Jesus said whenever or wherever a few believers are gathered to pray Jesus is there in their midst.. this is a divine atribute
@prototype00000 You also have to take in account that the sayings of Jesus are surrounded in whole chapters in context.. There is coherence and great details in the context surrounding everything Jesus said.. so how can ur view or that of muslims in general provide sufficient evidence that all of that is just unreliable and made up?
I LUV YOU SAMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KEEP SHINING IN THE NAME OF CHRIST!!!!!!!!!! GOD BLESS YOU IN EVERY WAY AND CONTINUE UR AWESOME WORK THANKS BE TO GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (by the way, ur actually sooo funny, i luv hearing you talk!)
God is multiple in nature, so why deny Him when the Word became flesh? John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
and if JESUS was lesser, why should the father owe the son glorfication, when the father and the son glorify each other there is some kind of equality.commen scence
@Logia1978 Ofcourse ur gonna say it's bullshit because ur a muslim. But to us christians that are not spiritually blind as muslims are, it makes perfect sense. Because unlike muslims we interpretate the Bible in it's entirety.. we don't isolate one saying of Jesus, one verse and interpretate it appart from what the Bible as a whole tells us
And still Muslims will press this point, willfully heedless of all explanations. The better the explanation, the less they'll try to comprehend it. Same with atheists.
Mohammed is not a true prophet because he wouldn't submit to Christ. He put himself over Christ in fact. And now, who else presumes to do that? Satan.
too bad this wasn't a debate because the muslim would have been OWNED!!!
RedemptionFORus 5 days ago
Wow! Way to go, Sam. Its about someone used their brain in explaining the bible in its context; and using the Greek words as well. Many of these muslims foolishly attempt to break down the bible using the english version and come out short handed. They fail to realize that original text is in Greek. They made the same mistake when they try to use that mohammad is in Deutoronomy 18. They didn't go to the Hebrew version and notice it speaks of an Israeli prophet. Sam, what church to do attend?
locknezmunster 1 month ago
What great exegesis of John's Gospel!
Sam is a great teacher! Praise YHWH, the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ & the Holy Spirit!
leonardo77756 1 month ago
I see the conversation below, now can please explain to me what is the first sin ( Adam and Eve)?
MuslimPerspective786 2 months ago
@MuslimPerspective786 DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD;S COMMAND . ' NOT TO EAT THE FRUIT OF THE TREE "
SuperDahlee 2 months ago
what are you saying
damirage2010 2 months ago
jesus is clearly not an equal to god even according to the biblical view, all one has to do is interpret the bible in its entirety and they will see jesus doesnt know when the day of judgment is, however as jesus says only the father knows.
only a small amount of new testament quotes jesus himself, and the quotes in general show he is no god of any kind.
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Great so the Bible has not been changed! Thank you for indirectly admitting that fact
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
lol you have chosen to incorrectly interpret my post, its no wonder you choose to interpret the bible incorrectly too
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 I know, u muslims want to claim both right? u want to claim that Jesus never said he was God in the Bible, but u also want to claim that christians changed the Bible by making Jesus into God right? Unfortunately for u muslims, both claims cannot be true because if christians changed the Bible then u have to explain why Jesus never said he is God in the Bible. So its illogical to think both these claims can be true.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i understand what your trying to say but my initial post was kept very simple and is based on only what is there as talking about alterations is another long story
that being said there are very few quotes of jesus to begin with in the NT, only roughly 10% of the NT are apparently his words, which would mean not even 1% of the whole bible
unless you say as god he wrote the OT but then he sounds violent. so its not us who try having it both ways by claiming he is man/god
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 What Jesus said has been recorded.. what u think about it doesn't matter.. My point still stands, if christians changed the Bible by making Jesus into God then they could have easily and most likely, they would have put words into Jesus mouth in which he claimed to be God.. I don't know if ur muslim but muslims dont even have a clue what Jesus words were.. all they know is that part of Jesus message was that there is one God. "one God" is only 2 words.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
its not about what i say lol its about what jesus says in christian books, problem for christians is though he never says he is god
the NT authors altered quotes and the proof is in the bible itself, i dont know what book your reading but its not up for discussion its fact
- Matthew changed it so that people would call Jesus as “Lord” instead of “Rabbi.” (Mark 9:5 vs. Matthew 17:4)
both accounts are the same story, was mark saying the truth or was matt? only 1 can be right
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 First of all, Lord doesn't necessarily mean God.. secondly Jesus was indeed both Rabbi and Lord, also a prophet, Savior, Messiah and King. Provide evidence that Matthew changed it anything..
So are u telling me that thats basically it? That Matthew referred to him as Lord there and Mark as Rabbi? Is that what leads u to believe that the whole account of everything that led to the crucifixion etc is all made up? That the prophets prophecied it doesn't also matter?
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
if one reads rabbi they think a jew teacher
if one read lord they think god
now all adults can see what has happened here as peter could have only said either lord OR rabbi so these qutes in the text are inaccurate
if lord doesnt mean god then that means whenever jesus is mentioned as being a LORD in the bible, that doesnt have to mean god. so again its not me trying to have it both ways
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 U do realise that ur arguement is based on a english translation right? And i still don't see ur point because Jesus was both Rabbi and Lord according to our belief. Well, i never claimed that Jesus is God because he is referred to as Lord at times..
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
okay fine do you know what the original greek bible says? is it rabbi or lord?
i would assume that these are different meanings in original languages too. also as far as i knew jesus spoke aramaic and NT is greek so we dont have the original format anyway
also i dont reject everything that happened until crucifixion, i reject paul & the apostles version of jesus being god & dying for our sins as it makes no sense for him to die for us all anyway, bible text or no bible text
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, thats ur view.. the crucifixion does make sense to over 2 billion christians in the world.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
ill ask you if you can really make sense of it. the account is that jesus died for the sins of mankind
however if he died for the sins of mankind, then as a christian why can you still be punished?
the only way you can be punished is if he never actually saved you...so sacrifice makes no sense at all. if he never saved anyone then what is the point?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Jesus made it possible for someone to be saved.. he didnt save anyone he made it possible, he provided the way to salvation by taking the punishment. U ask why then can christians still be punished.. well, once a criminal for example accepted Jesus, his sins are forgiven if he is sincere, but after that he cannot stay a criminal.. one has to follow Jesus teachings to keep salvation. So that would be my answer to that
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
ive found different christians have different views of how salvation works which would mean there is no official teaching specifically detailing it
as for your account if he only made it possible for us to be saved then that would mean god (jesus) made us and cursed us for no reason of our own, dont you see a problem with that?
what about the people before jesus came to earth? this means they are screwed
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 No thats wrong, we cursed ourselves by our own sins.. Jesus said if u look at a woman with lust u have committed adultery in ur heart.. do u think there is one man on earth who hasnt committed that sin? And what was the punishment for adultery according to the Law? It was death right? Jesus fullfilled the Law by remaining free from sin and sacrificing his body which also fullfilled the sacrificial system that was part of the Law in Leviticus.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
this is what i think your version is
god (jesus) made humans, he then cursed us even though we were not born yet nor did we commit any sins yet
so for centuries people were cursed and could not be saved
then god (jesus) turns up an kills either his son/himself (not sure which)
now humans can all save your our ownselves
seems unnecessary, seems harsh on the people before jesus as they were condemned to punishment and could do nothing about it.
also who died god/gods son?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 But thats not my version, its wrong, lemme explain.. I don't believe that the sins of people are a direct result of God removing Adam and Eve from the garden.. although we have inherited a weak sinful nature with the knowledge of what is good and what is evil.. that happened right after Adam and Eve ate from that tree, because after that their eyes were openened and their pure sinless nature was corrupted.. we are born with that nature but without having sinned
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
you say we were born in that corrupt nature, but me and you are alive 2000 years after jesus. now as you believe jesus saved everyone 2000 years ago, how can you be born in that corrupt nature if jesus came and made it all better?
does this mean all the people that lived before jesus were condemned and could not be saved? (including the prophets & their followers from old testament)
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 I think i answered these 2 questions already.. perhaps u haven't read all of my last replies yet? Anyway, Jesus did not do anything about the corrupt nature that people are still born with.. he only provided salvation for people. And those people b4 Jesus were probably saved by keeping the Law which involved sacricifing animals to make atonement for their sins just like Jesus made atonement on the cross to fullfill that practice or part of the Law.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
yeah i never got read reply yet. okay so your saying the old testament people were "probably" saved as they followed laws
you know what his means? it means nobody actually needed saving as they had laws to save them anyway
your version makes it sound like jesus came here not to save anyone but to remove old laws. so he saved you from laws & made life easy for you
pauls quote in romans 6.15 make it look like this too
so he isnt a real saviour he is someone who removed laws
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, there is much to say about this but im not an expert regarding this particular subject.
But it is quite possible that people were saved by repenting and sacrificing animals for their sins.. but u have to understand that God commanded Jews to sacrifice animals for a reason.. which was that the punishment for sin came down on the animal instead of a person. The Bible says that God wrote the Law in the hearts of people and that has also the do with Jesus fullfilling the Law.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
what will happen is you will be forced to make up your own accounts as there is no official teachings. i have spoken to many christians & nobody actually knows what jesus saved them from exactly
to claim the jews sacrificed animals i dont think works as muslims sacrifice lambs too, jews never put the emphasis on sacrifice as christians do which is why they reject sacrifice of jesus. infact the jews/romans took jesus to be murdered & not sacrificed as there was no sacrifice
prototype00000 3 months ago
@p Well, Jesus saved those who follow his teachings from the punishment for sin which was death..
Well, the Jews did not sacrifice animals for the same reasons as muslims do. The Jews did it for several reasons, & one of them was to make atonement for their sins.. but i already explained that in my other comments.
Well, now ur appealing to those Jews who Jesus called children of Satan and hypocrits at times. The fact that many Jews rejected Jesus only shows that they rejected their scriptures
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prototype00000 So by the Jews practicing and believing in the law and the prophets..in essence they were believing in Jesus, because the law and the prophets attest to Him as their foretold redeemer. So when Jesus(The word) was here amongst us..it was no longer about following the WRITTEN law but the LIVING law who was Jesus. And as the written law provided temporary covering the living law provides eternal covering, because He is the fulfillment of that law..all
EchadinYah 2 weeks ago
@prototype00000 all those who have died before Jesus were in Abrahams Bosom, which is located somewhere near hell..but those who were in Abrahams bosom weren't just good Jews..they sincerely believed/had faith in the Messiah who will completely redeem them and restore them back into the glory of the Father! So whether you died before or after Jesus..Jesus's purpose was anticipated and believed..so during the 3 day period..Jesus reclaimed those who have passed back unto Him!
EchadinYah 2 weeks ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
im going now nice talking to you. my view is all people since adam life is a test. we are tested through deeds/sin which is why we have free will
jesus is the word of god, quran says god said BE and he was...hence the "word". i dont think christianity has an explanation on why he is the word
jesus never died to save us as nobody needed saving, everyone always had to save themselves & always will til the hour
jesus doesnt know when the hour is so is cannot be all knowing god
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 But in islam Allah did not say "BE" for Jesus.. he send an angel (Djbril) who started blowing into Mary and thats how she got pregnant.. thats what i know, i don't think Quran says Allah said "BE" for creating Jesus.
Anyway i enjoyed the conversation so far to.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i was going but i got time now, anyway god says BE and jesus is created, then the spirit of jesus is taken to mary by gabriel (jibreel) is how i read it
dont christians say the holy ghost came here to impregnate mary? if so then ghost was not god (which is why no trinity is mentioned in bible) but he was infact gabriel which is where the confusion occurs
google quran 4.171 to see the verse
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, that verse says that Jesus was a word and spirit from Allah.. whatever that word was it doesnt specifically say that that word was "BE" but anyway..
What makes u think the Holy Ghost is not God? The verse indeed says that the Holy Spirit will come upon her and the power of the Most High will overshadow her.. Why would God need an angel to come upon Mary to impregnate her if the word "BE" is sufficient? U see arguements can be drawn from several points about everything
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
bible is all about jesus and the father so what has the ghost actually done to be worthy of god? it sounds more like its running errands to me. also i dont understand how 3 gods can also be 1 god
how do you think ghost/god impregnated mary?
i don't think god needs to do anything i just think he does things the way he chooses. i know jesus has no father so i know he was created specially (BE)
i know mary was virgin yet she was impregnated specially to have a human child
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototy But also, it was the angel Gabriel that brought the message to Mary that she was about to receive a Holy son infact he said son of God - and he said the Holy Spirit would come upon her.. he didnt say i will come upon you to Mary, or i will insert a spirit into you to impregnate you.. But regarding the Holy Spirit there are several views held regarding His identity.. most christians say He is the 3rd divine person of the Trinity and others say He is just God Himself, His power in action
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@protot Well, yes everyone living under the Law was condemned to death because the punishment for sin is death.. in Ezekiel it says the soul that sinneth shall die.. Even God told Adam and Eve that if they ate from the tree and disobeyed Him they would die. So u see the coherence in the Bible? From the very beginning right up to Jesus taking the punishment for sins on the cross, the punishment which was death all along. Put it all together and see how Muhammad contradicts it all on a huge scale
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
best thing to do is look at luke 11.29, it says jesus will be like jonah. it then says that jonah was in the whale for 3 days n 3 nights so jesus will be in the earth for 3 days n 3 nights
thing is though the christian story then says he was buried from friday afternoon to sunday morning which can be 3 days, but only 2 nights so it doesnt work
the only way he can be like jonah is that jonah never died, we say jesus never died. it serves no purpose for him to die
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prot well for a explanation of the sign of Jonah which was indeed the 3 days n nights, i urge u to look it up on the internet.. the time can be calculated according to what jews considered to be a day, and there is also the preperation of the passover that plays a role in why it was indeed 3 days n nights..
But so u think Jesus was on the cross but he somehow survived it like Jonah survived being in the big whale? If u believe Jesus was put on the cross but survived, that doesnt make sense
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
you can argue days, but how can anyone claim friday night and saturday night makes 3 nights? it is clearly 2 nights and nobody in history has ever counted it any different
it should make sense to you jesus ascended from the cross as he said he would ascend in john 20.17. i am isolating the verse for you for a reason
we cant work out what exactly he would have saved us from anyway even if he did die for us, there is no bible verse or words from jesus as far as i know
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, for a indepth explanation regarding the sign of Jonah u should google it.. i once read an excellent indept, quite long explanation.
It doesnt make sense to me because if God wanted to save Jesus then why would he allow him first to be tortured almost to death and put on a cross to be mocked before saving him eventually from death (bloody)
This is what ahmadiya muslims believe..
According to the NT Jesus died to save us from the punishment for sin which was death.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
here is the thing, god never allowed jesus to be tortured at all that is the christian account of sacrifice. quran says (4.157) how god replaced jesus with someone else. he did not do that to prophet jesus to be mocked or tortured like that, jesus is one of the five major prophets who is closest to god
ahmadiya are not muslims lol, to me they are worse then jews and major non believers. they claim to follow another prophet a couple of hundred yrs back who died on a toilet
prototype00000 3 months ago
@p But u believe Jesus was indeed on the cross but he survived it? Or did i get the wrong impression?
Because u either believe Jesus himself was on the cross or someone else in his place.. if the latter then that would lead to several other pretty big problems.. the idea that God changed the look of Judas into Jesus appearance makes God into a deceiver which resulted in Mary, the disciples and everyone else to believe Jesus was indeed crucified.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
quran doesnt give specifics it tells us what we need to know. all we need to know is that they wanted to murder him & took him to the cross but god replaced jesus
we dont know who was on the cross nor do we care, but we know it wasnt jesus. god never deceived the followers of jesus as they knew he would ascend its in your own bible he said he would ascend
again dying serves no purpose, i still am not sure what you think he actually saved us from. you say dying but we all die
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 So u believe the soldiers came and arrested Jesus and before they put him on the cross he magically was changed into another person? I'm not saying that God cannot do that but im just asking and i don't think God would do that and certainly dont believe that He did that.
U said they knew he would ascend.. but they also knew he was going to the cross and that his blood would be shed for the forgiveness of sin etc etc..
By dying Jesus took our punishment thats our belief.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i dont know if jesus was subbed before they put him on a cross or after that is not told. but i know he wasnt tortured and mocked.
if you think jesus is god then you think god mocked himself?
also you would need to think who died if he was tortured? did god sacrifice himself or his son?
you say jesus took your punishment which off course is what all christians tell me, however how can he have taken anyones punishment if you can still be punished?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype Well, Jesus was on earth as a human with a human body and in the form of a servant.. and yes we believe he was mocked and tortured.. Regarding his identity, i believe "son" refers to his humanity instead of the second person of the Trinity.. Regarding God sacricificing himself, u should realise that the Father without a doubt never died and thus never sacrificed anything.. It was Jesus human body which was the sacrifice for sins as Jesus himself said "the living bread is his flesh"
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
you say it was jesus human body which was sacrificed and father never sacrificed anything
but christians say they have one god as we know jesus says there is one god (mark 12.29)
so how do you rationalise god feeling pain and not feeling pain (jesus feels pain faither does not but they are still one)
the only way would be to say they are separate 2 gods but that is rejected as bible says there is only one as the main first commandment
prototype00000 3 months ago
@protot Well, ur asking me to answer for God now.. i cannot answer for God what He feels.. what we do know and believe is that Jesus experienced pain in his humanity.. i understand u wanna extend that feeling of pain to the Father.. but i cannot explain if and how the Father experienced that since he was not in human form on earth on the cross. But the reason for the point in my last comment is that it seems muslims think that God in Christianity died and somehow seized to exist, which is wrong.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
going back to why jesus died for you, i have been searching for versus to show how he died for the punishment of mankind
can you find anything which says this to be the case?
i can find paul saying that jesus became a curse & died to save people from the cursed law but that is not punishment (galatians 3.13)
so according to scripture is it punishment or laws?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well a clear verse would be when Jesus is having a last meal with his disciples and when he says "this is my blood that will be shed for the forgiveness of sins"
By dying on the cross Jesus fullfilled the Law, the Law under which everyone is considered a sinner and worthy of death.. remember the animal sacrifices for sins that was part of the Law? Jesus fullfilled all of it including over a 100 Messianic prophecies.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
ok so if jesus himself said his blood will shed forgiveness for sins then why can chrisitans still be punished?
this means he hasnt actually saved you from sins as you still pay for your sins
i realise you said earlier how he never saved you but made it possible to save yourself, but bible scripture doesn't say that so i think thats just your own version and not the bible version so it doesn't count
as he never actually saved anyone this makes sacrifice pointless
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, i told u.. Jesus only took the punishment so that we can go to heaven.. if we dont accept it and dont want to follow Jesus teachings then we will pay for our own sins with death and eternal seperation from God.
So u actually think that the Bible doesnt teach why Jesus went to the cross? U really think Jesus never said anything about why he was going to the cross? I gave u a very significant verse in which Jesus said that his blood will be shed for forgiveness of sins..
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
but again if you accept he died to save you from punishment then why can you still be punished?
i know you said he only made it possible to go heaven, if you look at rom 5.14 it seems like it condemns every man from adam to jesus to "death", now assuming "death" means punishment in the afterlife it would mean all people until jesus were all condemned to hell
what does "death" actually mean? because they were all condemned to it
the scripture is confusing
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Without punishment there is no justice.. thats why those who do not follow Jesus teachings or have not even accepted him as savior, they will pay for their own sins. But the reason why Jesus took the punishment is because God demands perfection.. He doesn't want sinners in heaven, He wanted us to live sinless and be Holy.. thats how God intended it when He created humans.. he created them sinless and He gave the Law so that people would follow it. But no one could keep the Law
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
again though why do you say jesus paid for our sins, but then we also pay for our own sins
for example as you said earlier looking at a woman is a sin according to jesus, so what happens if someone keeps doing it, does he pay for it or did jesus pay for it already?
now if jesus pays then he gets away with it, but at least then we know jesus saved him........but if he pays for it then it would mean he has not saved him so sacrifice has not benefited him at all & he's not saved
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, looking at a woman with lust is a sin.. if a christian keeps doing it while he should be following Jesus then yes he is sinning.. but God is merciful thats why He send Jesus in the first place.. We do believe that God forgives sin.. but not if we are going to rape woman and kill people untill we die and then expect God to be merciful to us because we accepted Jesus.. thats not how it works. As a christian u have to do ur best to follow Jesus.. one has to be sincere.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
it sounds like you think that smaller sins are forgiven, big sins are not. is there a new testament verse to show this?
i think this is a christian belief but its not from the NT, its evolved later on
because in rom 10.13 it says anyone who calls jesus will be saved, it doesn't say only the small sinners will be saved by larger ones not.
so why do you think that some sins are forgiven and some not when it says "all" (chrisitans) who call jesus are saved
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, u have to read the whole Bible not just one verse from Romans to get the full understanding.
This verse simply says that anyone including sinners who will accept Jesus as Savior will be saved.. but that does not mean that that gives him a free ticked to live the most wicked life. Jesus said not everyone who calls me Lord will enter the kingdom.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i have read the bible, it is large & am happy for you to remind me of relevant versus as i cannot remember it all off course
if i pinpoint a verse you are free to show me why i should not, however to tell me to ignore it and read the whole bible i think leads to dismissal of the verse, which would make it irrelevant. im sure you dont think that any part of the scripture is irrelevant
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 I think u are sincere and thats the reason i try to explain and answer u.. and ur right.. But here is the thing, the Bible teach us that sin equals death.. sin is what seperates us from God.. therefor the punishment for many sins was death according to Gods Law. But even though we are dead in our sins, God is merciful and forgive sin over and over again out of His love and out of His love He also send Jesus for us. I hope u understand what im getting at here..
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
you say it doesn't mean there is a free ticket which i agree with...so then it comes back to if someone keeps looking at women there is infact a possibility he may not actually get away with it. im sure you agree god is the judge end of the day & we cannot take anything for granted
so how can we say jesus saved anyone when at the end of the day god is still the judge, jury and executioner?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, we see in the BIble that God forgives sin right? He forgives sin over and over there are many verses about the forgiveness of God, but i would have to look them up myself so maybe u can do that urself. But thats a fact. God does forgive out of His love.. He knows we are weak and sinners thats why He send Jesus to live that perfect sinless life to meet His standart of perfection. So He does forgive but what was the punishment for murder? It was death.. So can we go murder?
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prototype00000 So God does forgive if we look at woman.. God even said we have to forgive others (cant remember how many times) But if we have to forgive others over and over again.. why would God not do the same? So if a christian looks at a woman with lust many times God will forgive him many times.. But looking at a woman is not the same as raping a woman or killing people.. u see how it works? There are major sins and small sins but in the end God is merciful but also just.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@p Someone who is sincere and wants to obey God and wants to go to heaven he will love God and trust God. But do u really think that the Bible teach us that God will forgive even those who do not trust God? Even those who kill, rape, steal, lie, do drugs?? Come on man.. this is not what the Bible teach us. I understand ur critical about the Bible which is good but u should also focus on the larger picture, learn more, and look at muhammad & islam critical like this & u will find tons of problems
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
what i think is that sacrifice is the core of christianity, without it jesus doesn't need to be god either as what would be the point?
so if sacrifice/salvation does not work then christianity does not work. salvation does not work as none of us can work it out
end of the day we all believe god is the judge, you therefore through christianity have no advantage in salvation over islam when it comes down to it
this makes the sacrifice of jesus completely pointless for sins
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 But ur wrong about this.. i have replied and tried to explain why this is wrong to u several times aleady now.. i honestly can't explain it better or more.. i suggest u read my last replies also if u have not read em yet.. try to understand what i said.. i think my replies were clear enough regarding salvation and God's forgiveness and the need for Jesus going to the cross etc i think i answered it to the best of my understanding and knowledge.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
what you say makes sense in that small sins and big sins are miles apart, only thing is i cannot find in the bible where it says jesus saved small sinners and he never saved big sinners, if its not in the christians scripture anywhere then there is no reason to accept it
all thats in the scripture is that all who call are saved
do you think if a christian man watches porn, gets high, has illegal sex etc he will be 100% forgiven as long as he doesn't kill/rape?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00 But u have to allow harmonization of what the Bible says.. ur now looking only at one verse in Romans, ur problem is basically that u are no realizing that the punishment for sin is death in the Bible and ur not aware yet of the verses that speak about Gods forgiveness.. once u get to that realization it will allow u to see the bigger picture to harmonize what the Bible teaches about all this.. i did my best to explain it to u.. and so i suggest again to read my replies carefully.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
ok fine, but if you felt i was only looking at one verse then you were free to show me another verse. if we cannot find another verse then we should go by this, although if another verse said something different then it could lead to a contradiction which would make matters more complex
that aside now what do you mean when you say punishment for sin is death? now we all die off course whether we are sinners or not so what does this exactly mean?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 there is a first death which is when a human dies, and second death which is the punishment in hell.. but i don't believe in a eternal hell, i don't think God is so unjust to send someone to be tortured endlessly, this is one of the problems i have with islam. The punishment for sin is the first death.. a murderer according to the Law had to be put to death. Death is what seperates us from eternal life in heaven with God.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
as far as i know your version of hell is not backed up by bible scripture in terms of eternal hell, so for all you know it is eternal. if i am wrong you can show me the scripture
i do know jesus says that most will fail and go to the gates of destruction (matt 7.13-14) which i agree with
you say the punishment for sin is first death, is this from the bible or is it a later christian belief?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 What does the Old Testament teach about hell? Do u know any verse about eternal hell from the Old Testament? But look for example this video watch?v=UA5bAnbDDGA
Well, what was the punishment for adultery and murder according to the Law of Moses? Death right? Ezekiel says the soul that sinneth shall die.. God told Adam and Eve if they ate from the forbidden tree they would die..
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i dont know any verse about eternal hell from the old testament, but i dont know where any verse says it isnt either as there doesnt seem to be much info on it. does it say people go from hell into heaven? i dont like watching these vids i think its better to look at scripture as then we know if its there or not
adultery was death, so maybe i never understood you. are you saying that people are now saved from the punishment of adultury as they do not die anymore?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Yes God does forgive adultery but how many times? U need to ask God because i don't know.. but the punishment for adultery is done away with after Jesus took the punsishment for sin on the cross. So something changed. The Law is still there but Jesus fullfilled it thats where this goes back to.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
you say jesus did not end the law but he fulfilled it....but if that law no longer remains then that is ending it....am i missing something?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 I suggest u look it up what it means exactly that Jesus fullfilled the Law and what effect it had on the Law that was given to Moses.. it seems to me ur asking some of these questions for the first time without having looked for answers urself on sites or in the Bible.. The law said "thou shall not kill" Jesus fullfilled the Law but that doesnt mean we can now go kill everyone.. Go to a site these things are explained on practically every christian site.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
it seems that christianity is using the theme of sacrifice to make life easier in terms of law. there is so much leniency claimed that a christian can technically watch porn, rob a bank, get high, spend the money on hookers & there is certainly no punishment here, nor is it likely he will be punished there
i guess this is why paul claimed the curse of the law is no more, you are free
the only thing is nowhere does it say you can look at women but not kill, its made up belief
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 No it has nothing to do with making life easier.. when did i ever said that? I never said a christian can watch porn, or rob a back that is ur interpretation.. i said God can forgive those sins just like in islam. Or are u telling me that Allah cannot forgive those sins? And i also told u that God can certainly punish people in this life and after life.. this is all in the Bible.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i know you never said a christian can watch porn, rob a bank, spend the money on hookers & get high, but i know a christian who did that. he believes in christ as his saviour, he told me jesus said anyone who calls will be saved (romans 10.13)
i told him that he is acting like he has a free ticket. he told me romans 5.13 says there is no punishment if there is no law, he said romans 6.15 says there is no more law...
prototype00000 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
so now law hence no punishment...i told him even i know christins do not say this, however when i checked the scripture he was correct these versus exist, this is exactly what st paul said
so if there is no law and just grace, there is no punishment...pauls words say this
yet you tell me you can still be punished in this world.....NT christian scripture does not agree with you
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Obviously that guy didnt know he had to follow Jesus teachings in order to get to heaven. I already told u to be a good christian one has to follow Jesus teachings. The person ur speaking of didnt do it so God will judge him for that.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
you claim he never followed the teachings of jesus, but he told me he followed scripture....when i checked it he was correct it is in the christian scripture what he said (no law just grace, no punishment if no law etc)
so why do you say he did wrong by not following jesus, when in reality all he did was follow paul?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, then u believe that he is right.. i cannot help u or explain more.. if u think he was a good christian and that he followed Jesus teachings then believe that. Its good to follow Paul but u also have to follow Jesus. So stop twisting the truth of all these matters please otherwise this discussion has ended.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
ok this part of the topic seems to have come to an end so i wont continue with it, however in his case it wasn't jesusormuhammad it was jesusORpaul?
he followed pauls scripture and words, which meant he never followed nor lived anything like jesus & that's a fact
but you should know i never twisted anything as we can read the scripture ourselves & i even referenced it all, its not isolated as its written a few times & i cant find anything else to abrogate it
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype You dont allow for harmonization of what the Bible including Paul and Jesus teach.. u like that person ur speaking off.. based their understanding on one or 2 verses from Paul and failed to follow Jesus teachings. Paul never said u dont have to follow Jesus teachings.. So the problem doesnt lie with Paul but with ur understanding and sellective use of the teachings of Paul. I told u that a person has to follow Jesus teachings Paul doesnt contradict that even though u may think he did
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
galatians 5.2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
you tell me paul never went against the teachings of jesus, however jesus was and taught to be circumcised as he was a good teacher of the law
but paul goes as far as to say that if you do this then jesus has not saved you in any way (thats most of the USA)
im not picking 1 or 2 versus, theres loads, and why do you want me to ignore them?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Circumsision was part of the Law and Jesus fullfilled the Law.. by holding on to the Law they were rejecting the fact that Jesus fullfilled the Law. Pauls writings are all based on the fact that Jesus fullfilled the Law and scriptures.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i have read full chapters, where do you think im getting all this from? you wont find any websites which are saying what im asking i am thinking for myself & questioning the words of paul & what he meant
if you dont agree with it then its pauls words you don't agree with, if you tell me to ignore them & read more it wont make these many versus i referenced disappear, i cant isolate these many versus he said these things many times
do you ignore them & read something else?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@p Well, its very common for muslims to misunderstand what Paul wrote..& i gave u a very brief answer.. Paul is teaching people that Jesus fullfilled the Law & what that means. Go to google and search why christians do not circumsize. Im sure u will find a good answer in no time. Now let me ask u something, where does the quran speak about circumcision? Where does the quran explain why its important to circumsize? Because if its so important in islam there should be something about it in quran.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
circumcision itself wasn't really the issue, i was only mentioning it to show how far paul went in saying do not live like jesus,
he even goes so far he says if we live like jesus on this then jesus will be "no value" to you
so you cant follow the teachings of jesus 100% & still follow paul, it is impossible
google has no answers (people try but fail), not a christian i have met has any real answers on any of this
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 First of all, circumcision was a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham. The gentiles have nothing to do with it.. so why do muslims do it? Where does the quran explain the importance of it? And during Jesus life the Law was in place and still unfullfilled thats why certain things still needed to be followed but once the Law was fullfilled things changed. Even quran says Jesus came to made somethings halal that were forbidden before.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
in relation to sacrifice, although its not about salvation or sins as we are done with that but one verse i read stood out
galatians 3 1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
who was "bewitched"? why were people who obviously saw a crucifixion think that jesus was not actually crucified?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 u need to read full chapters to see what Paul is talking about. Ur quoting one verse that u obviously are misinterpreting. Go read the full chapter and chapter before it..
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prototype00000 But i can also ask u a question regarding this.. islam teaches that everyone who becomes muslim and takes shahada, all his sins are gone, forgiven, whiped away right? So if a criminal or a rapist takes shahada his sins are forgiven right?
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i think in christianity if someone turns to the religion & is "born again" they have a clean slate no matter what they do, that is similar to the shahada in that if they come to islam its a clean slate, but that wasn't what i was talking about
im looking at specifically the sacrifice of jesus in relation to all this & we have now come to the conclusion that end of the day sacrifice or no sacrifice it comes down to god being the judge
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well God has always been the judge so thats nothing new.. But thats why i said God will judge us by looking on judgement day wether or not we have atleast accepted Jesus as savior.. without faith in Jesus death and resurrection we are doomed already.. we will die in our sins thats what we believe.. so u eiter pay for ur own sins or accept Jesus as savior and do ur best to live a good life.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
on judgment day god will know i accepted jesus as the prophet, not as a saviour as for him to be a saviour he would have to save me from something & i cant see anything he could possibly have saved me from. i dont consider abolishing the death penalty allowing me to commit a crime
i know a christian criminal (not killer) who never got punished in this world, he lived it rich and happy & died in his 60s, so you cant say people will certainly get punished here cos he never did
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, according to Christianity everyone who rejects what Jesus did on the cross is condemned already.. those who reject the crucifixion and resurrection will die in their sins. I know ur muslim and dont believe he died but thats ur choice to believe.
Well, so ur saying Allah didnt punish him in this life.. what about the after life? Im sure God will judge him. and on that we can agree.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i would assume he would get punished, but then where is the salvation for him? jesus did not save him....do you see what im getting at....once again he needed to save himself
just because jesus removed the death penalty that never saved anyone...it only made matters worse as now we are more likely to commit sin....
you even think he is going to be punished in the afterlife so he was not saved in anyway. there was no salvation in christ for him
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Why do u keep going on and on about "saved" and "salvation" I already told without accepting Jesus we can never be saved and by accepting Jesus there is a good chance to be saved unless ur going around acting like u got a free ticked to rape every woman on the street or other wicked things.. ur still obviously not understand what i said. So how did Jesus save us? He saved us by taking the punishment and without accepting him we can never be saved thats why we say he is salvation.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prototype00 For example Jesus said if u look at a woman with lust u have sinned right? He did not say that this sin was a unforgivable sin u see what i mean? It doesnt say God does not forgive those who look at woman.. thats why i urge u to study the forgiveness of God and His love for us and also which sins God did forgive in the past.. once u get to know all about this, u understand it.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prototype00 Committing adultery was a major sin according to the Law and the punishment was death for it.
But watching porn, getting high allthough they are sins and possibly big sins in the eyes of God, it doesn't mean God cannot forgive those.. He does forgive and is merciful so how many of those sins it takes exactly before God will not forgive i don't know. All i know is that we have to do our best to keep a good relationship with God, He wants us to obey out of love not out of fear also..
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
again it seems what you say regarding sins is very sensible, however i cant see any salvation through jesus in any of this. when we are talking about sins we are considering what is a large sin, what is a small sin etc. it comes down to what god forgives and he does not & you said yourself how many times he forgives we don't know.
jesus does not come into it so sacrifice has not helped. the judgment awaits sacrifice or no sacrifice we just dont know, we need to save ourselves
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 "jesus does not come into it so sacrifice has not helped."
But ur saying this as if there is a problem with it.. which is not the case as i explained why Jesus went to the cross and what the Bible teaches about sin and God's forgiveness etc allthough i asked u to look up the verses about God's forgiveness urself. But in a sense ur right.. Jesus did not save anyone, He fullfilled the Law to meet Gods standart of perfection for us.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
there is a problem with it as its not changed anything in terms of salvation
the only thing you can claim is he ended the law to make it easy on people, however his words in matt 5.17 as you know say he is not here to abolish the law so again his words don't match the story
you think islamic hell is harsh, but god punishing jesus to save the guilty is not? even then you don't know if 100% saved as there is no free ticket
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Ur not thinking this through correctly i see.. perhaps the best thing to do is go to some websites for better and more in depth answers.. as i said i cannot explain it better then i already have.. i do know however that there is more to all of this then i explained. So go to some websites where all the relative verses are referenced.
But Jesus did not ended the Law, he fullfilled it.. by remaining free from sin till death on the cross. Jesus took the punishment willingly.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
ok so according to you sacrifice has saved you from capital punishment (first death)
based on this it seems jesus would have saved people from the punishment of sins on earth but the afterlife remains unknown
it seems christianity is preaching a religion where immorality is condemned, but even if you do so what? there isnt any punishment on earth, & you will probably be forgiven anyway in most christians opinion. it seems very close a a free ticket
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 But ur doing constandly is over simplifying all these things.. u cannot simplify it like ur doing.
Yes, the punishment for adultery has done away with in Christianity.. but someone who keeps committing adultery God can certainly punish that person in this life, or guide him to Himself if he wasnt a follower of Jesus yet.
God forgives but as i said im not God i cannot tell u how many sins it takes before God doesnt forgive.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Jesus lived the perfect sinless life as God had intended it when He created Adam and Eve sinless and perfect. God wants us to be Holy Leviticus 19:2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy"
Jesus was Holy, born from a virgin by the will of God.. lived as a perfect example for us and fullfilled the Law that no one did or could according to both old & new testament. U need to really think about these things.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Its not like after u accepted Jesus u cannot sin anymore.. we are not perfect like Jesus.. but God is merciful He does forgive sins. Jesus was merely saying that looking with lust at a woman is a sin too.. that doesnt mean that God never forgives that sin.. God does forgive sin not only in islam.. But God wants us to do our best to not sin he wants us to repent and keep a good relationship with Him and also that we accept Jesus who lived a sinless life for us.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@p Everyone is a sinner including all prophets.. Jesus said none is good. If he said none then he means none, however himself not included for several reasons, only Jesus was sinless and came to fullfill the Law.
By accepting Jesus as savior we can become spiritual adpoted children of God. We can be born again through the Holy Spirit & those who accepted Jesus will be clothed on judgement day in the righteousness and perfection of Jesus. Thats why Jesus said no one comes 2 the Father exep by me
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@protot So yes, Jesus human body experienced pain.. we can also ask if his spirit felt pain? I dont think his spirit felt pain but only his human body, his humanity.. and since the Father is not human, we don't believe that He was on the cross and experienced death
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i dont think anyone can rationalise the trinity and how one god can/cannot feel pain at the same time. the point is to work out if there is one god, or a 3 in 1 god
why do you think in the thousands & thousands of pages of the bible a trinity is not once mentioned? or no mention of a 3 god or 3 in 1 god?
we know the OT text comes from jewish preservation, we also know that they reject & always have rejected a trinity which means they never found it in the OT either
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype000 Well, u want to understand everything about God but regarding many things about God, we just have to accept it on faith.. we dont understand everything about God's being thats just the way it is.. He exists outside of our reality and understanding. So u can ask about the Trinity but someone can ask you how Allah processes all the information about whats happening in every persons life.. how can we explain His eyes and hands and all his attributes? How does His power work? And so on
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prototype000 Well, if the Trinity isnt mentioned then that in my view is also evidence that the Bible was never changed to suit Christian ideas.. u can't have ur cake and eat it too. Either Trinity is teached in the Bible cos Bible was changed or Trinity is not in the Bible taught and is therefor evidence that the Bible wasn't changed.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad you tell me that i cant say bible is altered if there is no trinity mentioned but that doesnt explain why no trinity or a 3 god is mentioned in the thousands of pages of the bible. infact ironically enough the very first commandment is a simple one god belief which i infact agree with as the prime ideology
also having no trinity doesn't mean bible isn't altered, that would be a fallacy as we would have to ignore everything else based on this
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 well then we should agree to disagree, u believe bible is altered in many ways and i dont believe it is.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
one way i can out it is if i had a debt of £1000, and my saviour paid it for me then that debt would be written off
but if my saviour paid my debt of £1000 and i still had to pay it then it would make it pointless for the saviour to have paid it for me, infact the debtor would recieve double payment for no reason
this is what sacrifice is, it claims jesus paid for your sins but then it claims you still pay for your sins
that means it was no point for jesus to pay the debt
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prot Yes thats logical.. but in my previous comment i tried to explain it however there is much more to it then i can even explain.. But God created sinless humans, and only one sin got them kicked out of the garden or heaven which was a Holy place.. one sin was enough.. All descendans of Adam were sinners, remember Cain and Abel? One killed the other. God wants us to be Holy Leviticus 19:2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy"
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prot Leviticus 19:2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." God wants us 2 be Holy and He gave the Law.. but everyone is a sinner except Jesus in the Bible.
And by accepting Jesus, God will not look at our sins on judgement day but if we have Jesus who was sinless in our hearts. God standart is perfection, holyness, He wants us to be holy before going to heaven which is also a holy place. I hope i get what im saying so far..
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prototype00000 I believe Jesus literally came down from heaven as God or a unique being with divine attributes.
To fullfill the Law and with that, provide salvation for mankind.. I believe Jesus body was the sacrifice for sin because thats what he himself said.. his human body died on the cross which he even later himself raised back to life. Jesus said destroy this temple (his body) and i will raise it up in 3 days.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prototyp Regarding those living before Jesus, I don't know everything about it to explain it, however i do know that Jesus is the word of God.. so those living before Jesus also received that word of God.. so in a interesting way, those people receievd Jesus (the word) and believed it.. But also, Jews had to make atonement for their sins thats how they escaped the wrath of God.. This was also to point to the comming Messiah which would make atonement for the sins of mankind as it was prophecied
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i cannot find anywhere in the bible which says what you do about sacrifice..in that he died so we can save ourselves. where did you get that info from?
also paul said
romans 6.15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
so the question is what happens to the christian who does sin? because there is no law to break as paul says we are not under law..... so how can you be punished if you do not break law?
i dont get it, do you?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototyp Well, Jesus clearly said we have to follow his teachings, his commandments.. he also said not everyone who calls him Lord will enter the kingdom of God.. and that refers to those who do accept Jesus and do some good things but live wicked lifes at the same time.. Well, there is a Law but Jesus fullfilled it and not only that, he summarized the 10 commandments in just 2 by saying love God and love your neighbore as yourself (even ur enemies) So we still have to follow things of the Law
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@prototype00000 We still have to follow the Law with regard to not killing anyone, not committing adultery etc.. Jesus even set certain commandments on a higher plain, for example regarding adultery.. the Law only spoke about real adultery but Jesus said if u only looked at a woman with lust u have already committed adultery in ur heart.. So he was setting the standart of the Law even higher and revealing deeper truths about matters. I hope u get what im saying.
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
its easier to alter or remove a quote then it is to add another whole new quote
for example christians did try to add the word trinity at one stage but they got caught as you probably know and it was then taken out again
so when you ask why didnt they just add a quote of jesus saying he is god, this would be why...people knew he never said it & they would have got caught as frauds. otherwise no doubt they would have done that too if they could have got away with it
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Now ur giving a nonsensical arguement.. because basically ur admitting that it was not possible to change Jesus words without being caught.. don't u see? And what about the crucifixion then? If that was made up they would have known it too right? Do u want me to believe that altering some quotes is the same as inventing whole chapters that tell us in great detail about everything before and after the crucifixion? Ur view doesnt add up
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
what im saying is with NT alterations they could not outright add a new verse of jesus saying he is god i accept that, think about it what is the most important part of the NT? what were people paying most attention to? the words of jesus...so it would have been most difficult to invent entire new sentences & present them as quotes of jesus
you want me to be at an extreme end of saying everything can be altered or nothing can be altered but there is a sensible middle ground
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, but again, ur view doesnt make sense.. ur also contradicting urself it seems.. because ur saying that people knew what Jesus said and therefor it was not possible to misquote Jesus to change his words.. So apply this logic to every chapter in the New Testament and everything Jesus said about his crucifixion etc and whats the logical conclusion?
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
i said it is more difficult to alter words of jesus, not that it was impossible. but you have to take into account ALTERING a quote and INVENTING a whole verse & saying jesus said it are 2 whole separate issues.
here is what i think about crucifixion, jesus says in john 20.17 he is going to ascend to god, he never said he is going to die. now this verse matches the islamic version that he will not die but simply ascend
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 So now ur going to quote Jesus sellectively to support the islamic view? That method doesnt work either and i don't like to see someone take that approach either. So dont do that please.. u cant just take one saying of Jesus and isolate it from many other sayings and surrounding context.. the context surrounding Jesus sayings are they to all altered or made up according to u? This view of urs is again highly irrational in my opinion
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
okay if you think im being selective what is the strongest quote you think jesus says which shows he is god?
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Well, Jesus said he came down from heaven and he said he shared in the glory with the Father before the world was made.. so one has to explain how Jesus can share in that glory and what that glory stands for.. Also Jesus said whenever or wherever a few believers are gathered to pray Jesus is there in their midst.. this is a divine atribute
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
which verse is it though? i would like to reference the verse so i can read what he apparently said
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 Matthew 18:20, John 17:5, John 6:38, John 6:51
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
@JesusOrMuhammad
see how your isolating versus now? we are both going to do it, anyway
john 6.38 i got no issue with he did what god told him, infact this works more in islamic favour as it shows jesus works for gods will not his own
john 6.51 (the bread) says if you follow what jesus really preached you would have made it & live forever in paradise, i agree
as for matt 18, i think this is too weak to claim jesus is god.
john 17.5 i think john added that at the end as he added john 1.1
prototype00000 3 months ago
@prototype00000 You also have to take in account that the sayings of Jesus are surrounded in whole chapters in context.. There is coherence and great details in the context surrounding everything Jesus said.. so how can ur view or that of muslims in general provide sufficient evidence that all of that is just unreliable and made up?
JesusOrMuhammad 3 months ago
I LUV YOU SAMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KEEP SHINING IN THE NAME OF CHRIST!!!!!!!!!! GOD BLESS YOU IN EVERY WAY AND CONTINUE UR AWESOME WORK THANKS BE TO GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (by the way, ur actually sooo funny, i luv hearing you talk!)
LinaEgyptian 3 months ago
wow sam you really make no sense. You suck. Go shave your beard
chulloung 3 months ago
Babylon the Great! The Father is not an essence. You people are amazing!!
r22fvr 4 months ago
God is multiple in nature, so why deny Him when the Word became flesh? John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
dwhite1up 6 months ago
Don't be deceived, Muhammad is the spirit of the anti-christ
irejectthis 6 months ago
and if JESUS was lesser, why should the father owe the son glorfication, when the father and the son glorify each other there is some kind of equality.commen scence
jhweh2007 7 months ago
right on the money SAM
jhweh2007 7 months ago
Total bulshit...
Greather is greather....
Jesus said Father is greather than I, Father is greather than All!
There is no need of mental masturbation for such a clear statement.
Logia1978 8 months ago
@Logia1978 Ofcourse ur gonna say it's bullshit because ur a muslim. But to us christians that are not spiritually blind as muslims are, it makes perfect sense. Because unlike muslims we interpretate the Bible in it's entirety.. we don't isolate one saying of Jesus, one verse and interpretate it appart from what the Bible as a whole tells us
JesusOrMuhammad 8 months ago
@Logia1978 Who is greater? You or Muhammad?
pengendownload 8 months ago
Thank you Sam for your great insights to the truth.
Praise Jesus!
amanwithdreams 8 months ago
Great stuff.
And still Muslims will press this point, willfully heedless of all explanations. The better the explanation, the less they'll try to comprehend it. Same with atheists.
Mohammed is not a true prophet because he wouldn't submit to Christ. He put himself over Christ in fact. And now, who else presumes to do that? Satan.
MyFriendLeonard1 8 months ago
like
crashonthehumble 8 months ago