Stephen Fry - Hay Sessions 2009 5/6

[tko1984]

The questioner – "you say we shouldn't judge American for being unsophisticated, but isn't ignorance dangerous."

Jesus, and people say American's don't get irony! What an idiot.

[allpeeps4me]

Lima, Peru

[anhonestmoose]

@langsense Hay-on-Wye, Wales. :)

[swilsh55]

@langsense Hay-on-Wye is in Wales, thanks for posting this though, it is such a joy listening to stephen fry

[moviefreak91]

I'm an American, and my rather enlightening US History professor has said that there is nothing inherently wrong with Socialism, or socialized programs; Americans seem to get the idea of socialism confused with that of Marxist socialism in its most extreme sense. So, the insult of calling someone, like Obama, a ''SOCIALIST!'' is a rather ignorant and benign form of insult.

[wander099]

@moviefreak91, I have the same view.

Another reason socialism is considered bad is that everyone believes they can become a millionaire and as such higher taxation and services for everyone is a bad idea because it would not be in their future interest. They should really look back to the industrial revolution, when there really was the pure capitalism they revere so much! I bet they wouldn't like working 16-20 hour days for low wages, in poor conditions, and at the mercy of the capitalist!

[mossfitz]

@wander099 The principal reason that the American people think socialism is bad is that they have been subjected to the most sustained and ever more virulent propaganda campaign for at least 60 years. They are simply brainwashed by the power-hungry owners of "Public opinion". It is sad that this takes place in a country where people take real pride in ideas of freedom.

[wander099]

@mossfitz, that is true. And the sad thing is that if most people took the time and energy to actually learn about things instead of just dismissing them because they have been told that they are bad or that they ought not to be interested in that, such ploys would not work in our world today. But most people will never do that. They will just sit quietly until told to shout about something in anger.

[RCTPatriot75]

@moviefreak91

Churchill saw the inherent problems with socialism.

[albuhkirky]

Yeah the US-hay festival!

[RCTPatriot75]

Before the Federal Government took over and "socialized" the school system America was top 5 in every category of study, now we are terrible. The more we implement socialized programs the worse things get. How intelligent is it to disregard results in order to feel good?

[RCTPatriot75]

@RCTPatriot75

Also, the reason we have a "socialized" military(volunteer) is because it's enumerated in the constitution, the others are not. There were schools and hospitals back then, if the founders felt that was governments role they would have clearly stipulated that in the Constitution, they did not.

[wander099]

@RCTPatriot75, I take it you assume the constitution includes everything that governments should ever be allowed to do. But that is absurd. It precludes any possibility of social change and cannot account for technological and other advances. What about the original part of the constitution where 'free' people were counted as full persons and slaves were 3/5 of a person? That has been changed in accordance with the evolution of moral values, why can't other part be updated in a similar manner?

[HTHAMMACK1]

@RCTPatriot75 "America was top 5 in every category of study, now we are terrible."

Terrible? Care to back that up with evidence. There is nothing terrible about the American school system, which can often be different from state to state and county to county. There are as many intelligent Americans today as there were 50 years ago. Education is what you make of it. You can send a child to a top flight school, but if he doesn't care about education or learning, the results will be bad.

[wander099]

@HTHAMMACK1, rankings have fallen in Canada and in the US. Perhaps not terrible yet, but will be if changes are not made. Is the cause government run education? No. The cause is crappy teachers and a culture that believes everyone has the same academic potential and should all go to university/college. Teach to the lower-middle and mediocrity will follow. Of course everyone still appears to be educated and intelligent because standards are lowered on national assessments and admissions.

[HTHAMMACK1]

@wander099 Crappy teachers? I'm sorry, but again, the greatest teacher could never teach a kid that doesn't want to learn. Education is about parents taking an interest, and children be influenced to learn. It has nothing to do with teachers. Teachers are capable.

[wander099]

@HTHAMMACK1, can you blame an elementary school kid for wanting to play instead of sit at a desk all day? No. It is not the child's fault. And while the parents have some responsibility, they are not trained to teach. Teachers are supposedly qualified and they get the kids from as early as age 3 now. Are you telling me that they have none of the responsibility if the kids are as dumb as posts? Of course they do. Part of being a teacher is motivating students and teaching effectively.

[RCTPatriot75]

@HTHAMMACK1

"Report: Poor science education impairs U.S. economy" USA today, Sep. 23, 2010

"U.S. Falls In World Education Rankings, Rated 'Average" Huffington Post Dec. 9, 2010

"In ranking, U.S. students trail global leaders" USA Today Dec. 7, 2010

"U.S. slipping in education rankings" UPI.com Nov. 19, 2008

"U.S. schools humbled in world rankings" The Washington Post Sep. 9, 2010

Never said there weren't intelligent people. It is an irrefutable fact that our schools are performing worse.

[yngguy4u]

and Europeans generalize about Americans too much. You are not either a homesteader republican who believes in stagnance...or...a north eastern liberal jew...there are so many inbetween. in fact much of corporate America votes republican because the republicans are seen to have more sympathy towards the wealthy. Yet in Europe the elite is completely liberlized. Europeans don't understand how American politics filters into society and why.

[jacksawild]

@yngguy4u If I've given you the impression that I am someone who doesn't understand the American arguments you should understand that you are speaking to someone who was born gravely ill, to a poor family. I was under a world class surgeon and never was the worry of money inflicted on my family, they were never asked to make hard choices due to cost. When I think of the people here who would have suffered under the U.S system I wonder to the morality of arguing philosophy while it happens, now.

[yngguy4u]

@jacksawild

well that's the part you don't understand. Americans can not be denied care no matter what the circumstance. Without health insurance, yearly "check - ups" would be expensive but a serious ailment would not go untreated. That's why health care premiums are so high because those paying for insurance supplement those who are not paying. It's a flawed system, no doubt, but it seems you believe people are dying in the streets. That's not happening.

[jacksawild]

The sad thing is that you are the one who doesn't understand just how controlled you Americans are. I'll give you an example, there a a billion people in the world who are facing starvation, a crisis we have never seen before. Bet you haven't heard of it. On 24th November 2008 a UN resolution to the right for food for everyone was voted on. Every member nation voted for this resolution except one. Guess which. Turn off your tv for heavens sake.

[yngguy4u]

@jacksawild you think we are controlled...but its you who are. Controlled to believe that America is controlled and a BAD place...and your facts are wrong. American's know how many people are starving in the world and our personal contributions are more than all other countries COMBINED. It's advertisement here. But the ratio of starvation is the lowest its ever been because of industrialization.

[yngguy4u]

@jacksawild and the UN resolution was denied by us because many European nations decided they would like the resolution to pass but they didn't have the funds to support it financially. So once again, America has to foot the bill. We can't save the world without help. Where are the donations from the countries who signed the resolution? Where is Europe's army to fight poverty? You can't call us imperialists in one breathe and then say we're isolationist in the next. It's your world too!

[yngguy4u]

@jacksawild ugh I'm done. You make very good arguments but clearly we won't ever see eye to eye. We're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm a gun toting redneck American who's stupid and your a socialist, wimpy European who smells. LOL (kidding of course) It's futile.

[jacksawild]

@yngguy4u I'd have been far more insulting if I thought you a redneck. Fair dues though, how is it you colonials say? "Have a Nice Day".

If you get the chance: watch?v=SUGr5rZSWPo

thanks

[yngguy4u]

The idea that America is scared of socialism but adhere's to the laws of a socialist military is jumping the shark (as they say in Hollywood) in both directions. The military of any nation in history is socialist. The military defends the rights of Americans to be free. Without it, we wouldn't exist. It may be ironic in a logical sense, but absolutely necessary to progression and peace. Human enlightenment hasn't yet happened. lol

[jacksawild]

@yngguy4u But you've missed the point entirely. He was saying why do you only need an army for 'freedom'? Why not an army to fight ignorance, disease or anything which leads to suffering? Just exactly what is the difference? What is the point of government if not to benefit the people? It is difficult in the US because profit is at the heart of policy, ignoring the suffering by demonising the socialists. That's why I think Americans are stupid. His point about adversarial debate was spot on too.

[yngguy4u]

@jacksawild Well even Stephen Fry says "America is not stupid as we'd like her to be". Just because you don't undersand America doesn't make it stupid. It makes it different to the way you look at the world. America has what we deem the essentials...Social security, armed forces, unions, etc. But we are an individualist nation, not a "socialist" one. It's more ironic really - another thing you think we don't understand.

[jacksawild]

I asked you lots of questions which you've ignored to tell me I don't understand. As if somehow, we can ignore the suffering of people while we settle some inane philosophical point about whether it's right for the state to get involved. You believe you have the essentials, whereas I believe you are a nation of selfish bigots interested only in personal property and wealth. Try to remember what America stood for. "Give me your hungry, your tired and your poor", seems like you lost your way, cuz.

[yngguy4u]

@jacksawild Because you don't understand the "why's" of America's internal arguments. American's don't look at government the same way. To us, the more government involvement, the more corruption. I know of no American who would say that government should "benefit" the people. It should protect the people (which I admit healthcare and education should be essentials), but the arguments against gov't involvment are not just rhetorical, grand philosophies.

[yngguy4u]

@jacksawild Healthcare for instance...healthcare in the US is very expensive already because it is controlled by corporations. We think that is corrupt enough...having government take over completely would create more corruption in our opinion and also change healthcare as we know it. No more would there be an incentive for the doctor's to compete and find new techniques and be the best and most rewarded in the world.

[yngguy4u]

@jacksawild On the flip side, it's not just the corporations fault that 45 million don't have healthcare. It's also the employer's fault. Americans want the employer to provide basic healthcare to all. The government would just screw it up. Good healthcare in America is the best in the world and government knows nothing about it. Quality would suffer with govt inolvement. We want it both ways. no gov't and healthcare for all. that doesn't mean we want people to suffer.

[yngguy4u]

@jacksawild And as far as education and ignorance and disease, where are your army's for these things? In the last two decades, America has spent 6 trillion on education alone. - the teacher's unions in the US have ruined the competative nature of school not govt. So saying we ignore education is wrong. The amount of money donated and spent by govt on disease prevention and research is also the most, by far, in the world. So we do have certain socialist ideas.

[yngguy4u]

@jacksawild and just because America is wealthy and has a lot of personal wealth and opportunity doesn't make us selfish bigots who are only interested in that. It's amazing how condescending Europeans are even when they have no right to be. American's do think our country is exceptional, but that doesn't mean we think we are exceptional as indivuals. It's the Europeans who are bigoted and hypocritical and anti semites - we don't think we've lost our way - we think you like thinking we have.

[Belegaer]

This is in USA?

[MarxistKnight]

Actually Hay-on-Wye is in Wales, it's on the border with England

[PurushaDesa]

@Belegaer

Hay-on-Wye is in Wales, not England.

[youknowimright1]

i always find it funny that a general steryotype represents a country or a group.

[redbeaver]

I think Fry lent a little too much weight to the political views of some Americans. The most striking fact about Americans with very right wing views is that they are generally less wealthy, and stand to gain the most from 'socialized' programs. I guess you can explain this with the American dream. A lower class American is told from a very young age that with hard work you can achieve anything and that social and economic obstacles don't exist, or they can be overcome easily

[redbeaver]

. So of course they don't want their projected riches being taxed heavily to fund people who didn't work as hard as them. The irony being that people are not as upwardly mobile as they believe.

[Tracymmo]

Re the "socialized" army: it's the one part of gov't that few Americans question - ever a frustration for peace activists like me. It's our sacred cow.

An exception to the arguing issue: New Yorkers!

I appreciate his discussing different types of Americans. Sure there are sophisticated people in Britain. And then there are the people who are banned from football matches in foreign countries. Every country has a mix of people, some we proudly claim as our own, some we find a bit embarrassing.

[Dionysos37]

Gee, I wish America was allowed to see discussions like this. Too bad PBS has been destroyed (and of course the rest of the dial is useless)....

[jaymz168]

Well, PBS did bring Bill Moyers back, so I wouldn't say destroyed. Unfortunately nobody watches PBS anymore.

[shadowkitty56]

(Chuckling) Seems to me like the spiel he gave right on up to 1: 16 reminded me of something Lou Reed said: Hey babe, take a walk on the wild side....

On the other hand, something tells me Stephen Fry would have stuck out like a sore thumb in the scene that Lou Reed actually describes in that song....(shaking head) Stevie darling, you would have lasted five secs with the trannies and hookers, the Puerto Rican mamis and CBGB crowd of the East Village in the late 70's/early 80's.

[gaveller]

Love this man, he makes everything make sense.

[tet43]

As an American, it's strange watching an interview where you are discussed as some curious creature,and Stephen Fry is the intrepid explorer explaining how we behave in our natural

habitat.(lol) It's funny and disturbing at the same time.

[tet43]

My personal feeling on this matter, is that Americans seeming disinterest in the rest of the world has much more to do with geography , than any deep seated, psychological fear of foreigners.We are such a huge country, disconnected by the Pacific and Atlantic, with so many climates and lifestyles, that because we are so self-contained, there just doesn't seem to be any practical reason to engage.I don't think it's a conscious thing. It's just human nature to focus on what affects one personally.

[66nylorac]

Brilliant comment, tet43!

[tet43]

thanks!

[piratebrido]

He is bang on regarding the British attitude to America. It's a myth that he is quite right to challenge. We should look at our own culture first before casting stones.

[ZdPhoenix]

I thought his argument was fundamentally flawed there.

As much as I've always thought that certain criticisms of America tended to be over the top and as much as I get frustrated by parts of our society, we're still talking about a land where socialism and liberal are often regarded as dirty words, where there are huge discrepancies in education and where religion has a hold unfathomable to a lot of us - all of which Stephen mentioned and then failed to repeat when it came to the 'myth'.

[BentonRox]

A liberal friend of mine lives in a traditionally conservative part of the country, her father was a born again Christian, & the hottest point in the Intelligent Design debate happened on her turf. On an election map hers is a "red state." Yet there are science teachers there who believe in a God many (including me) find unfathomable, parents who are atheists with kids who are Christians and vice versa, and a wide spectrum of education levels in that red box. Not much about the USA is simple.

[cantilever]

Not trying hard enough to do what, exactly?

Please clarify...

[kurtrulez]

He's referring to "trying not to judge", which you do indeed seem not to try hard enough, because your whole post is a judgment of Britons.

[cantilever]

"He's" actually a "she"...at least technically speaking...

And while I'd lay that it is highly presumptuous to speak on someone else's behalf, you do seem to have made the same fundamental error in comprehension that, uh, she did...which would tend to lend credence to your "supposition" and hers being of similar stripe...

(This reinforces the unfortunate pattern which I'm STILL striving not to accept...hard as I can, brother...)

[langsense]

Stll not trying hard enough I see.

[cantilever]

Evidently not...

;)

[cantilever]

Although I do try VERY hard to spell correctly...

*wide grin*

[langsense]

Gosh, well done.

[cantilever]

Thank you, my dear...you might try harder yourself...

;)

[langsense]

How very droll.

[cantilever]

Quite...

;)

[cantilever]

Sad that the applause was so tepid...I imagine the majority of bien-pensant Brits in this audience have too much vested in the thought of us Yanks as intellectually inferior (for whatever reason).

I myself try not to judge all Britons by the behavior and actions of those I've witnessed--which, if one has been abroad to Thailand, Egypt, etc., is not always a credit to Queen and country...

[langsense]

You say you try not to judge, I would say you don't try hard enough.

[cantilever]

My friend, you've decontextualized (and distorted) what I wrote...

I didn't write that I "try not to judge"--which would be silly to claim, in any case...I wrote that I "try not to judge all Britons by the behavior and actions of those I've witnessed..."

In other words, I don't extrapolate one standard for all Brits based on the actions of a yobbish minority...

And I believe I've been largely successful...although it was touch and go for a while after a sojourn in Sihanoukville...

[langsense]

You're still not trying hard enough.