The Trial and Death of Socrates - Part Six - Conclusions

[DAILEYericCaryUSA]

Why would Socrates abandon his cherished virtue to avenge himself upon those he considers unworthy men? What virtue can be found in vengeance? How could a life of virtue ever be avenged on unworthy men? Socrates never defended himself but only the oracle he served.

BTW why do we think Socrates felt any regret at the verdict of death? Did he not prefer a worthy end of his life battle for the regime of virtue?

I must dissent form these conclusions though the original question has real merit.

[rangaman94]

Wow Socrates may be the greatest evil genius to have ever lived.

[betolimoun]

Was Jesus a better Socrates?

[sinrm]

Cant believe Im watching this,its for my Jurisprudence's presentation this coming Thursday so my lecturer asked us to watch this video so that we can get better understanding about Socrates-Crito.

4th year law student:)

[stefbot]

@sinrm Please thank your lecturer for me, and I hope you found it valuable!

[sinrm]

@stefbot It does!Help us alot in the presentation especially in understanding about THE story from different pov apart from what has been taught to us;)

[GoldenSilence333]

Your videos are like an intellectual drug that I can't stop taking...

[stinkfist911]

I chalking this up to a morning well spent.

[KancerKowboy]

Thank you Stef for who you are! I have been slowly waking up over the last 22 years since I graduated public education in east TN. After studying the Occult, Native Americans, UFO's =D, Conspiracy, Philosophy, History and many other subjects. The process was slow up until 2007 and I have begun to wake up exponentially faster over the recent few years.

I have enjoyed the content on your site. Wish you and your family the best and keep up the good work!

[odenh33]

The idea that Socrates thought or knew his words would have lead to the ruin of Athens is unbelievable. The mere thought that his words would lead to mankind's suffering for thousands is pure fantasy, isn't i? But I have been listening to Stef for a couple years now, and I don't think he makes many mistakes. So it leaves me with one conclusion...I wouldn't know a real thought if it were chewing on my upper lip. Yes I am only worthy to listen to these real thinkers. Cheers Stef WOW

[RamandoDMag]

Hey Stef, this argument of yours reminds me of the actions of Francisco d'Arconia in Atlas Shrugs. Power of any kind whether from virtue or evil seems to be completely and utterly susceptible to corruption as seen in both Socrates and d'Arconia. Are these just actions or just bitter vengeance?

[TheGoldenWizard]

You make an extremely compelling argument but I don’t see any evidence from the text. Doesn’t Socrates say in the book that it is not just to do evil to someone who has done you wrong? Will you please give me textual evidence suggesting otherwise.

[slaughtz]

@TheGoldenWizard The point is that Socrates is being outright contradictory. The evidence is in the logic that Stefan presented. Socrates was being inconsistent. Socrates praises the state and laws made by a democracy while simultaneously saying the majority is corrupt and evil. If the majority is corrupt and evil then the laws in a democracy are corrupt and evil. Enough textual evidence is provided.

[Taiyama2]

Question: How can you say that Socrates' positive contributions to the world outweigh the negative if he has as you say, in his vengeance, caused the deaths of so many many many MANY people?

[MrWafflesMonster]

As you well know, having studied Socrates simply providing examples of virtue such as honesty, mercy or courage is not suffient. One would have to a definition of these such examples and then say why they are virtuous. Socrates did not reach satisfactory definitions for any of the values that he debated, he only proved that those who claimed to know knew nothing. Without a true definition he could not know these values and without knowing them how could he be virtuous, how can anyone be?

[TheTeeOhDoubleD]

@MrWafflesMonster to question is to correct injustice because it allows for the individual to realize on their own where they've faulted, consider thrasimicus blushing, justice only exists in the wake of injustice, therefore the only just act is to reveal to others where they have been unjust. Socrates died philosophizing because, as you said, ther had not been suitable definitions reached of virtue.

[MrWafflesMonster]

Also, it seems that you are saying that all philosophers are virtuous. If they are virtuous then they must know what virtue actually is, what is wrong and right. I myself am unsure that Socrates did know in his own mind what virtue was, he never came to a satisfactory definition of it. So, in relation to my other point, if Socrates did not know what virtue was then how could he be virtuous, how can any philosopher be virtuous? To posses a quality one must be able to define it.

[MrWafflesMonster]

You make the assumption that good and evil exists and that they are seperate. How can one claim to know that which is good and that which is evil? Socrates debated what is right and wrong and came to place the same things under the two categories.

Basically I want a definition of 'good' and 'evil' and an explanation of how the two are separate because before I have these I am not convinced that your argument is valid.

[leavesofliberty]

Wow.

[Kitt0000]

Did he not say that he did not wish to curse those who voted that he should not be murdered? An old man, who knew his time was coming to an end would not easily survive exile. I do not disagree with what you have said, but the east has many similar problems as the west. Socrates cant be to blame for it all.

[inibo]

Well, Stef, that was certainly terrifying. Also very well argued.

[andrewh817]

It's funny because I was told in high school economics that it only makes sense to be "somewhere in the middle" of politics. That's a good way to stomp principles out of the vast majority of students.

[TokDiYel]

Thank you for this! What a great way to spend my morning!

I especially appreciate the emotional depth you shared with us in your reading and analysis. The honesty and passion that you bring to the table is what keeps me coming back for more.

[stefbot]

Thank you for your kind words, I'm so glad that you found it helpful! :)

[Robinsonero]

Great stuff.

[bababybwoo]

they mustn't be virtuous if they don't take a stand.

[bababybwoo]

easier to attack the virtuous then to look in the mirror and face what they have done and are doing and seeing that they are not better then anyone.

[bababybwoo]

maybe I am. I thought he stood for truth but you're right. if he had run away, truth and goodness would have thrived and he would have proved that he had no ill will to the state. he would have just said that they were doing things their way and he was doing things his way.

[bababybwoo]

hey, im not idyut.

[OldWhig1688]

That is marvelous! Inspiring!

[PsyogiBottoms]

Amazing how great minds think alike, is it not?

A fraction of a second before you mentioned Rand's name I was reflecting on the exact same point. I thought of Howard Roark and The Fountainhead (the book that most liberated myself from persecution)...and then you mention her name. I thought the same of Rand as I do of Vidal, we all learn it is not the world we see, but a world beholden to Satan (or the true nature of superstition) that of Evil and the corrupt. Our greatest curse is to leave it.

[seneca4295]

This video was... beautiful.

[Agitpropist]

Damn you Socrates!!!!

[WhereAreYouArienette]

Funny how there is some kind of general consensus among Americans that Jesus was the originator of the "turn the other cheek" philosophy. Socrates, Jesus's predecessor, clearly exuded this certain train of thought.

I also think it is too bad that among the vast majority, this adopted passive-aggressive mentality is honored, preventing people to speak out against evil.

As would be to Socrates disgrace, the world in general seems to be getting less examined every day.

[Paulson54]

Thanks for bringing this to youtube Stefan.

[Kevinkim7]

how did plato die

[VileVeil]

thanks for taking the time to do this stuff Stef. much appreciated and much gained from this and other videos of yours.

[xelenty]

Nothing worthwhile to add..Except, thank you, for your awe inspiring insight Stef.. :)

[ivanisavich]

Wow....at first I just was expecting to sit down to a short history lesson....but your conclusions were very insightful and I enjoyed this video a hell of a lot.

[cmoleon]

the ultimate betrayal of truth and virtue, the sacrifice of mankind to corruption by having the people imbibe the hemlock as they hand it to him - the vengeance of a frustrated embittered man... the most likely, strikingly lucid analysis i have ever met, of this episode in history that has come down to us from hearsay only. now what does this tell you about plato, this alleged follower of socrates?

[VCADD]

Awesome Series Stef!

[DaveDoggOwns]

Okay, so maybe you could tap dance around the paradox of stone, but there is no way that is going to work for God being described as all-knowing. All-knowing is about as straight forward as it gets.

[stefbot]

please take this debate about.gods private...

[NathanHal]

It's good for Socrates, but not us?

[stefbot]

the video is not about the existence of gods

[NathanHal]

Neither is my conversation.

[stefbot]

oh, 1000 apologies then, please continue :)

[NathanHal]

What version exactly uses "all-knowing"?

[benson471]

that was directed at "nathanHal". it isn't embedding correctly again.

[Rokasomee]

I'm definitely still hating the silent majority.

[weilandjason]

Very interesting and deep thought. To me the difficulty is "how does one identify evil quickly"?

[mindprism]

Yes, I've experienced the epiphany of realizing the slaves are the dangerous ones - not the masters.

[summergiles]

If this is the case, that Socrates is setting a trap for the majority, I understand and feel his desire for revenge, but I must point out that this is not virtuous. You may cover this in the next 7 minutes but I didn't want to forget. Also the masses are under subjugation in the first place and I think the reason they don't stand up for people is because they see those that stick their necks out like you or me as fools that get what they deserve. I could be wrong.

[summergiles]

Wow you just made some points that I had thought myself about passive-aggressive types. They are so dangerous. The thought that Socrates was this kind of person scares me considering how much of our society is based on his ideas. You always make me think.

[summergiles]

Hi Stefan

I'm sure this isn't your point but the first thing I thought of was how some people find ugly beautiful. Never mind I'm sure you have a more profound point coming.

[Durthalion]

very very interesting, its almost like he was saying, "If I can't do it I won't let any one else"

[Valelacerte]

stefbot: "You are talking to a haunted house of historical thought" - nice :)

[RPFS2008]

2 videos in 1 day. Could get used to this ;)

[Stargazer5781]

Aquafina product placement!

I learn a humungous amount from your videos, I hope I'm as well educated and insightful as you are some day :-) Great series!

[Bobyslav]

Can they be anything more than intellectual zombies, living dead wich spread their necrosys of the mind through the institution of University?

[Bobyslav]

A very strong argument (and original for all I know)! I will need quite some time of reading and reflection to explore it enough to be able to agree or refute it with confidence.

Thank you for persuading me to take this task upon myself!

On a sidenote, all of my philosophy professors insisted on studying the ligustics, semiotics and logic of Plato's works. Seldom did they refer to the most obvious messages, meanings, and value for our own lives.

[DrKaoliN]

Oh, and by the way - we should be thankful to those who betray us, for they are obstacles onto which we step up, higher and higher.

[DrKaoliN]

And how on earth can you tell who's stupid and who's smart? One man told me that the smarter you think you are, the stupider are you in reality.

And please don't get me wrong, I appreciate your videos and I think they are worthwhile to watch, unlike nearly 99,9% of youtube. I hope your enthusiasm for philosophy will dare the ignorant to realize the greatness and practical importance of philosophy.

[NathanHal]

Socrates, in subtile fashion, was attempting to expose intellectual dishonesty, not necessarily the idiocy of others.

[DrKaoliN]

I'm not referring to Socrates, but to Stefan, who said that among those who are commenting on his videos, there are idiots, fools, pompous, self inflated, grandiose, annoying and irritating people. He did not say that explicitly, but it's obvious if you listen to it. (07:07 - 08:15)

My question is what makes thee think you are smarter? I mean you can learn nothing if you think you are too smart for it.

[NathanHal]

That is where Socrates differs from modern day elitists.  Socrates did not condescend. He questioned the indictment of his moral suasion, and he sought to expose intellectual dishonesty. But he was not looking to distinguish idiots. That's left to You-tube philosophers. (This is also why it's convenient to dismiss God through strawman fallacies.)

[DrKaoliN]

Don't you think that men in the future will laugh at our science just as we laugh at the ancient's gods? Isn't the so called reason just a subconscious god? My point is that we should put to question even our most powerful beliefs. (And I presume you are aware of the grand role which belief or believing play in studying and in life. I mean you cannot learn something if at every sentence you put to question what the author says. We all have beliefs, even we would rather not admit it.)

[M4cr0cy13]

Yes there is always a belief at the bottom of any structure. But what we take on faith is not as big as atomic theory or evolution or so on. Those are all derived from our one assumption of logic.

Reality is consistent with itself.

Using this axiom has derived logic and from that the tools of the scientific method and mathematics. Everything that science accepts has been done so logically.

Seems like a better assumption than 'Anything this book has written in it is true and just.'

[DrKaoliN]

If there are no gods, are there atoms? If only what we can experience with our limited consciousness exists, how can you believe in atoms? Just because you believe in Science? Isn't that religion? Are you religious, mate? :)

[neutrinoide]

If atoms don`t exist. Scientists are very lucky to create the atomic bombs by making stuff up all the time.

[DrKaoliN]

That's like saying if gods do not exists, the ancient priests are really really lucky for almost everyone believing in gods.

If the ancients were so stupid believing in gods, aren't we the same, believing in something that can never be proven? I mean how can you, yourself, experience an atom? Empirically! Just because the chemical calculus corresponds with the experimental data, that does not justify the existence of the atom. Neither it's flagrant idolatry.

Hit me with your best!

[DrKaoliN]

Sorry for the grammar mistakes, I heated up. :)

[NathanHal]

It's an odd thing that evolution, in a miniscule microcosm of time, took man from knuckle-dragging, spiritually insensate primate to God-fearing thinker back to the insensate rationalist. Ah, the vagaries of evolution and philosophy!

[neutrinoide]

No it isn`t the same. Atoms is a well define concept to explain a phenomenom and indeed we can manipulate them to create nano-mechanics. If I follow your logic, nothing exist. A car doesn`t exist because it just an mish mash of experimental physic. You can`t not agree with atoms but it a concept that keep make repeatable experiment and prediction. God or any religion never prove any direct or indirect prrof of its existance.

[DrKaoliN]

My friend, the Greek gods were also well defined concepts. And yes, maybe in Socrates' time those ideas began to die out. And yes - they used those concepts, to explain nature's phenomena. They thought they were right. Even up to the middle ages people thought that life stems from mud, not from reproduction, that is from the so called elements.

Now the funny thing is up to this moment in time we do not have a decent theory of life. Evolution and big bang are just catch words, just lame excuses.

[DrKaoliN]

Lame excuses for not to think.

[neutrinoide]

Yes but the concept couldn`t predict or representing what actualy was going on. Just creating theories and concept is not what science is about. Mud and elemental theories are concept but unpratical or didn`t allow prediction. So , to end this.. I'll end it with an insult wich is just a theory wich is couldn`t do anything to someone where every concepts are just a bunch of words. Your an Epic Fail, hypocrites and bigot!

[DrKaoliN]

This dispute has nothing to do with you personally! I'm just trying to have a conversation and believe me, nothing can insult me.

And if I am an "Epic Fail, hypocrites and bigot" this does not affect the rightfulness of my arguments.

People do that, they insult you if they don't know what to say. But that doesn't change anything. That's why they accused and finally condemned Socrates to death.

[Mattprole]

Doubting everything is never practical, even in if only in the abstract.

[vegrin]

But still... Many nice points well presented, and well worth listening to!

[vegrin]

Hmmm... How was Kant, Nietche, Heidegger betrayed? If injustice is philosophical response to argument, then I can se that they suffered injustice at the hands of the complacent, but otherwise not.

The same goes for Rand too... And really all post enlightenment philosophers...

Many listened then, and still do now. And none of them were prosecuted!

[vegrin]

What about the opression suffered in china, well beyond the reach of Socrates. Or in mesoamerica, south america or oceania?

It seems to me that the curse, as far as there is one, originates from within humanity itself, not with Socrates. Though of course you could see Socrates case as an example of the curse in action, and as Socrates as one aware of this curse.

[kvan1917]

Wow. If only we could hack into television stations and broadcast this across the world...

[adorianvlad]

Stef, you have an original style, your own signature here at youtube, sort of speak, where you put forward emotional, fantastic presentations, very touchy.

However I would be intrigued to see added to your style a way of breaking paragraphs by the means of using both of your hands, so it would be a bonus towards us viewers' (yep, that includes the undersigned) ability to follow throughout the whole lengths.

Just a thought, provided the ADHD plaque, that exist today (this very video is O.K.).

[neutrinoide]

I choose evil, truth make me love it. 8-)

[lordtiberius]

Are you a Christian?

[stefbot]

there are no gods

[NathanHal]

There is a God. Simple proposition.

[DrKaoliN]

OK. But are there atoms?

[DaveDoggOwns]

Let's go even further than that. You cannot have evidence of square circles. God (especially the Christian one) holds self-contradictory attributes. God is a square circle.

[NathanHal]

I recommend C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain." This work well refutes your 'opinion.'

[DaveDoggOwns]

"God holds self-contradictory attributes" is not an opinion. Can all-powerful God make a stone he cannot lift? Can all-knowing God know a question he can't answer?

Can an all-knowing, all-powerful God not being able to change his future?

Can an all-knowing God legitamitely punish anyone? (an all-knowing God implies a predetermined universe)

Does it make sense for an all-powerful, all-knowing God to be jealous or angry?

[NathanHal]

If the exploration of Lewis is unattractive, one who has studied the work can relate that Lewis correctly assays that the "stone he cannot lift" argument enters into the realm of the nonsensical and is consequentially an innocuous, irrelevant argument.

[DaveDoggOwns]

No it is not nonsensical. The paradox of stone points out the fact that omni-potence is impossible. Since omni-potence is impossible AN OMNI-POTENT BEING MUST ALSO BE IMPOSSIBLE. You can't have evidence for square circles.

[NathanHal]

Omnipotence does not imply a necessary operation in the world of the nonsensical. That would be a definition borne of intellectual dishonesty.

[DaveDoggOwns]

Wait a minute, are you trying to say that God is nonsensical? Hmm, so why do you believe in him then if you think he is nonsensical?

[NathanHal]

Unfortunately you have no only subscribed to the nonsensical, now you adopted sophistry.

[DaveDoggOwns]

Contradictions do not exist in reality; only in the minds that do not think clearly.

[hughtub]

Dave is merely pointing out that there DO exist contradictions. The idea of a God, at its most basic level, is that contradictions don't exist, that there can be laws of nature and also laws that aren't laws (gravity can work, and also be instantly halted by this unseen, undetectable 'God'). Fact is, if you stop believing in God, the world makes more sense, because it's more understandable.

[NathanHal]

So your contention is that a lack of a belief system leads to some higher form of lucidity?

[hughtub]

No, I contend that the only belief system worthy of consideration is one that is based on observable, measurable information, not hearsay from thousands of years ago. Everyone is an atheist towards most gods. Atheists just go one god further. It's all unprovable nonsense. Why should we believe in Bible's god any more than Zeus? Because it's popular this millennium on this continent? The bible is too personalized to have circumstances beyond our control determine our eternal fate.

[NathanHal]

Your peculiar iteration was "if you stop believing in God, the world makes more sense, because it's more understandable." Are you speaking from experience?

[hughtub]

Yes, private message me if any more questions, out of respect of stef's request. If people believe in a God, and fail at a large number of things, what other conclusion is there than that the supreme being of the universe does not side with them? How horrible, but unescapable of a thought? If you then believe that the universe is predictable based on natural law, and that your mastery over your environment comes from increasing your knowledge, how empowering is that!

[DaveDoggOwns]

And my last and favorite question of all.

Is it moral for God, a being infinitely more powerful than you to send you to hell for eternity for a finite amount a sins you couldn't fail to commit?! Nothing is more evil than that! Satan is good. God is evil. I wouldn't worship God even if he did exist. I'd rather go to hell than bow to a being as evil as that.

[NathanHal]

Obviously you have created your own "unique" definition of God.

[DaveDoggOwns]

Oh no no no no no. It's not MY definition. It's your holy book's definition. It says over and over again that God is all-powerful. God is all-knowing. God is omni-present and all-merciful. To deny the verses that said he has these qualities would be classic moderate Christian cherry picking.

[NathanHal]

It's your definiton. Once you decide that omnipotence must necessarily operate within the nonsensical, it becomes your definiton.

[NathanHal]

BTW, where in the "holy book's definition" is the use of "omnipotence"?

[DaveDoggOwns]

They use all-powerful.

[NathanHal]

What version exactly uses "all-powerful"?

[benson471]

bullshit! complete bullshit. you are full of bullshit.

[scorpio21x]

Thank you for the video series!

[magichandpuppet]

This is moving on too many levels to list. Thank you, Stefan. I really mean it.

[walkerindarkness]

Perhaps this will summarize what was in the heart of Socrates:

Tonight in flames

Tonight the world will fear our names

Tonight in flames

Stay my feeble heart

Our deaths will be the start

Of something glorious and vain

Tonight in flames

[Ipluckithard]

you just sent shivers up my spine.

[simonodell]

So then catholicism was jesus's revenge?

Joking aside Im going to study this a bit further, I have this feeling that socrates actually gave us the key to defeating GOOD once and for all.

[cmoleon]

the jesus story seems to be an updated version of the socrates story in many respects, while it seems to represent a whole medley of additional myths and coded allusions to the world of that day

(even referential details like the cock in the famous 'betrayal of jesus by peter' can show that the creator/s of the jesus story had the mythological lessons down pat and toyed with them; the cock is the sacrificial animal to remind of the betrayal, the sacrifice of good to evil, of life to death.)

[simonodell]

Oh yes the paralels are striking, however we have far more evidence that socrates actually existed than we do for JC.

There are many martyrs for reason and logic against delusion and mysticism throughout history.

[cmoleon]

as i see it, it is rather exactly this creation of 'martyrs' (heros, demi-gods on unicorns, etc.; by this magical transformation they were elevated into the realm of irreality, their words corrupted to mythology) - in the rare 'hopeless' cases in which the SOP of utter vilification could not quite convince - that has been used throughout history to divert from the message and take the edge off the clear-cut simple truth conveyed by those who'd choose to tell it anyway.

[simonodell]

And yet without their efforts and sacrifices we could not be where we are today. It seems a neccasary evil in a world so stuck on willful pig-ignorance.

[billybobhobnob101]

When the individual comes in conflict with the tribe the individual loses, when the tribe comes in conflict with a confederacy the tribe loses, when the confederacy comes in conflict with the state the confederacy loses,- the wolves have always eaten the sheep- and when a shepherd comes the sheep is sheered for a few years then eaten. some day I'll explain life to you.

[cjet79]

Well seems like a good goal. And that was a great series of videos. I really liked the development and cohesive ideas that came through.

I have been a long time subscriber, but I'm making my first monetary donation (in buying your book) because of this 6 part series.

[stefbot]

Thank you so much! :)

[rob101x]

I'm not a philosopher, so this is not a criticism but a question:

The Curse of Socrates wouldn't affect the actual, living people that betrayed Socrates. It would affect future generations. Socrates must have known this, ergo he damned innocent children to life in a genocidal and murderous society.

Certainly a person who condemns millions of future children to such a life can only be called evil. How could Socrates justly condemn evil while acting in such a grossly evil fashion himself?

[DaveDoggOwns]

If he condemned the evil before he died, then he would not get his revenge after he died.

[DaveDoggOwns]

Yeah, he may have been condemning the men in the state, but his arguement using the social contract was to try to get revenge by currupting future generations. He may not have liked those specific men in the state but he learned to loved the idea of the state itself.

[DaveDoggOwns]

I know exactly what you mean Stef. I've seen countless people attacking you in video withnothing but ad hominems. I personally call it psychoanalyzing. You know what I'm talking about:

"Oh, he's just trying to sell you something."

"Oh, he wears fine clothes and shows of his resume like a salesperson."

"He's a narcisstic cult leader."

"He like the next Karl Marx...."

People are blowing "pay attention to form of the arguement" way out of proportion.

[Nickelodeon2002]

How self sacrificing of you Mr. Molyneux! So Christ like! lol :)

[Adipatus]

Very intrenesting! Thank you.

[dreaminginnoother]

I was wondering where you were going with this long series. Was not let down. Very interesting view. Brings the humanity of a great philosopher and legend to light.

[eflonmusic]

awesome insight, thank you~

[debaiona]

The wisest, most virtuous man in the world to that time... rendered utterly evil by the same unconsciousness he decried and reviled in other men.

Oh Socrates. :(

[NoCryingNowYes]

This may be the most moving and enlightening video series I've seen on youtube.

Your vengeance theory makes so much sense, I'm tempted to consider it a fact.

[stahrman]

Socrates in the end, "damn you all." What a tool. Thanks for taking the selfless road. By the way, how's the baby ? Congrats!

[NathanHal]

So did Socrates fail in his deference to "god," the man that could discern idiocy?

[NathanHal]

Allow me to correct a dangling modifier:

So did Socrates, the man who could discern idiocy, fail in his deference to "god" ?

[Leonin88]

"your talking to a haunted house of historical thought" awesome

[cybamegaman]

Beautiful....Not you guy, but you are so awsome. and if it makes u feel better i was kidding. =)