2 of 2--response to Largo64 (& Cristopher7) re: proselytizers

[RabidApe]

votemeat is good

[TheBlueFalconX]

So what is the basic definition of the Socratic Method?

[ToddGates]

> what is the basic definition of the Socratic Method?

From DictionaryDOTcom: "A technique in which a teacher does not give information directly but instead asks a series of questions, with the result that the student comes either to the desired knowledge by answering the questions or to a deeper awareness of the limits of knowledge."

In my next video series I'll be talking about this in more depth.

[natewheatshelf]

Posted Comment!

[RabidAp3]

comment

[Rhonda9]

I admire you patience with the theists. No matter what logic you generally present to them will often be futile. Yet they are persistent and unyielding. To me, any conversation on any topic soon loses my interest if it is only a one-way conversation. They have pity upon the believer, which soon turns into arrogant condescendence. This is the hardest part of dealing with them.

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 3:

> I admire your patience with the theists. No matter what logic you generally present to them will often be futile.

As I mentioned in my response to your comment in video 1 of 2, my experience with Christians in the Northeast has been mixed. With *some*, yes, logic is absolutely futile. But I've also found that when I don't question the existence of "a Creator," a number of Christians have admitted their doubts:

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 3:

... they'll admit they don't quite understand why Eve's punishment had to be passed on to their daughters, admit they don't know why the Bible contains contradictory passages about the fate of non-Christians, etc.

True, I can only get them to open up like this when I take the premise of "Let's say there *is* a god: now, given the smorgasbord of religious options, how can we know *which* religion---if any---really came from God?" ...

[ToddAllenGates]

3 of 3:

... and I know that many of my fellow atheists have no patience for what they feel is putting up this type of pretense.

> They have pity upon the non-believer, which soon turns into arrogant condescendence. This is the hardest part of dealing with them.

I haven't experienced much of that since I started using the Socratic Method ... but then again, I've never lived in the South!

[Rhonda9]

You posit to the Christian: "Is it your position out of the thousands of gods all but one are wrong?"...and then you quote the verse where Jesus says no one comes to the father but thru him. At that point they must admit that Jesus has introduced hell to those who won't accept him. This is the major important point to be made. It's horrifying & insane to worship a god that would burn their loved ones for eternity. It's true most theists will drop the subject because they don't have answers.

[Panman38]

If one of my friends believed I was going to burn for all eternity unless he helped me, and he didn't try to help me, I would either question his belief or his friendship.

[ToddGates]

> ... I would either question his belief or his friendship.

Well said! In most instances, I think Christians aren't too sure about their own beliefs. I recently spoke to one of my Christian co-workers about this, and she admitted she wasn't at all clear about what got people into heaven or not, and whether hell was even real--she said she just trusts that "God will sort it all out correctly in the end." End of thought process!

[Largo64]

(2) I really should follow your example, Todd. When my cousin says she won't discuss it, I should still answer her, but less confrontationally. I did tell her that I would always respond with discussion. I just could have been a little nicer about it. I really like this cousin. She's a really sweet person, and means well. I guess they all do.

[ToddGates]

1 of 4:

> When my cousin says she won't discuss it, I should still answer her, but less confrontationally.

> when someone says "here's what you should think, and I don't want to discuss it," I'm afraid I tend to get not only defensive, but offensive as well.

> she and others feel it's okay to try to convince me, but not for me to try to convince them.

My personal approach is NOT to try to convince theists of anything ...

[ToddGates]

2 of 4:

... rather, I request that they please come up with convincing reasons to *convince me* that they're correct.

The model I follow is that of Socrates in Plato's "Euthyphro" ... Euthyphro makes claims of religious knowledge, and Socrates's doubts notwithstanding, he doesn't contradict Euthyphro, but replies: "Rare friend! I think that I cannot do better than be your disciple." And in questioning Euthyphro so that Socrates may "gain wisdom,"

[ToddGates]

3 of 4:

Socrates manages to expose all of Euthyphro's internal contradictory thoughts.

I try to use this same approach with Christian proselytizers: first I get them to explain to me how I may recognize a "man-made religion" (by looking at the flaws of non-Christian religions: their clueless descriptions of the universe, the way their holy laws are often based on irrational prejudices, and the way they're pieced together from pre-existing religions).

[ToddGates]

4 of 4:

With the theist's own definitions of a religion "just made up by man" in hand, we then turn to the Judeo-Christian bible. And you can guess the rest!

I could go on for quite a bit longer on the comparisons between Euthyphro and Christian proselytizers--in fact, making a video on the subject is now on my To Do list.

[Largo64]

I'll look forward to that video. I like your work that I've seen so far.

[ToddAllenGates2]

> I like your work that I've seen so far.

Thanks--much appreciated!

[Largo64]

The Socratic method is good. I read the dialogs when I was a lot younger. But the thing that struck me, besides Socrates' skill in turning his listeners' own arguments against them, was his clear mockery of them. It was subtle, but not so subtle that they didn't realize he was doing it. That's why they hated, and eventually killed him.

[ToddAllenGates2]

1 of 3:

> the thing that struck me, besides Socrates' skill in turning his listeners' own arguments against them, was his clear mockery of them ... why they hated, and eventually killed him.

That has struck me too--that one of the most important lessons about Socrates is that if you make fools out of people with their own arguments, they'll hate you enough to kill you!

That's why I stress in several of my earlier videos that if you want to use the Socratic Method in a way that truly

[ToddAllenGates2]

2 of 3:

opens up communication, it has to be done tactfully. For me, that means letting them know that if the Creator of the Universe truly wants me to do such & such, I'll obey w/o question. (Which is true in the sense that IF I could somehow have evidence that [1] a Creator exists, and [2] that this Creator was really communicating with us, then I really would obey His Word. Hey, I generally don't even disobey my quite-human boss, so I certainly wouldn't disobey THE Big Guy!)

[ToddAllenGates2]

3 of 3:

So by putting myself in the position of a would-be seeker of God's Word---not someone out to mock theist's beliefs, but who wants to discuss the genuine difficulties of knowing what God's Word is when there's such a multitude of options / rival versions---I find that this usually eliminates the hostilities that so often crop up between theists and skeptics. (And it especially helps to not argue against the general idea of "a" Creator, but to just focus on the claims of His Holy Word.)

[Largo64]

That's very diplomatic, but for me it would only work if the god turned out to be one no one has so far known. If the Christians are right, for example, I would despise that god for reasons outlined in other videos. How would you react if god turned out to be Molech, or Allah? Still say yes to a super powerful monster?

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 2:

> very diplomatic

True, I'm being more "diplomatic" than I am being honest!

> If the Christians are right ... I would despise that god for reasons outlined in other videos. How would you react if god turned out to be Molech, or Allah? Still say yes to a super powerful monster?

If it turned out that there really is a God, and He really is the psychotic that's depicted in one of the ancient texts, well, what would our options be? Say YES *or* NO--we're screwed either way!

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 2:

But when speaking with true-believers, I never bring this argument up, because the "even if your God were real, He'd still be insane and evil" argument puts theists into the "you don't trust God!" and "you're rebelling against your Creator!" mode.

I don't want them to mistake my argument as "God is evil"---I want to focus on what I feel is the more difficult issue for them: "How can we tell if this is really from God vs. something just made up by people?"

[Largo64]

Exactly!

[Largo64]

My cousin would not do that. She already stated that she didn't wish discussion, only to inform me of something.

[ToddAllenGates2]

1 of 3:

> My cousin would not do that. She already stated that she didn't wish discussion, only to inform me of something.

When possible, I let theists know that I'm willing to be informed, but they just haven't given me enough information yet. Because all the arguments they give me---faith, miracles, healings, prophecies, the great #s of followers, the power of faith, etc.--point me in too many directions for me to be able to winnow out "God's Religion" from the religions that were

[ToddAllenGates2]

2 of 3:

just made up by people. All their arguments point me just as strongly to Islam & Hinduism and even Scientology as they do to Christianity.

But yes, there are often just dead ends, and no real communication is possible . . . with some Christians like that, I've told them it just must be God's Will that I stay an atheist for the time being. This way when Stage 1 of the rapture arrives (and I finally have some genuine evidence!!), my time studying atheism will help me learn the

[ToddAllenGates2]

3 of 3:

mindset of the heathens so I can be more effective at converting the unsaved before it's too late.

So I let the theist know that s/he shouldn't try to save me too early---that's not part of God's Plan! I need to be "left behind" so I can help gather souls in the last days!!!

[sulimon510]

that's such a funny thing to say to them! do they generally find it ridiculous or actually take you seriously?

[ToddGates]

> that's such a funny thing to say

Thanks--but with practice, I can say it with almost a completely straight face.

> do they generally find it ridiculous or take you seriously?

A mix: some can tell that at least *I* find it ridiculous ... but several others have taken me seriously, and warned me to "not wait that long--those last days will be horrible."

With these people, I just shrug and say "Hey if it's God's Plan for me to be an atheist right now, I'm not going to argue with Him."

[Largo64]

I don't think your response is too long at all. I realize that, just as my Christian relatives do, I may get emotional and even overbearing about it. My problem with this cousin was that she wanted not to discuss, but to teach, and basically said I was to take it and shut up. Not her words, of course, and perhaps not even her intent. But when someone says "here's what you should think, and I don't want to discuss it," I'm afraid I tend to get not only defensive, but offensive as well.

[TruthBlazerXL]

Fantastic two part response. When I try to question my former pastors or my relatives about the christian god and the multitude of inconsistencies behind said god (and 'his word') things always get so emotional (angry/defensive) on their end. Like a mother bear protecting a baby cub. I just wish I had your poise and way with words, Mr. Gates! lol

[ToddAllenGates2]

> Fantastic two part response.

Thank you!

> I just wish I had your poise and way with words, Mr. Gates!

Well, when it's just me & my notes & a camcorder, staying poised and focused is fairly easy! Things don't always go as smoothly for me in real-life conversations ... but I feel the more I work at organizing my thoughts on paper & on video, it carries over (at least partially) to real life as well.

- Todd

[kalsolarUK]

Great response - and certainly not too long!