UGHH! Why don't you have a club for those outside of the university? Like younger people in middle and highschool? This seems like such an interesting sport but I'm too young to go the college.
WHat amazes me is the idea that the pistol grip is an advancement, as if in the THOUSANDS of years men have been fighting with swords they would never have come up with such an easy remedy to their clumsy martial art!!! THe pistol grip is a unique detail that only serves the modern sport fencing. If you are wanting to replicate an actual duel where you would NEVER want to be stabbed, you would never need a pistol grip. That is all it comes down to.
@ADirtDiggler Man, what's your experience with pistol grips? They do have all the perks of french and italin grips and none of their flaws. If you'd actually wanted to recrete modern duels then dismissing pistol grips would be a really unjustified idea.
The pistol grip is a huge advancement that came into being in the 1900's so you can't really say that in thousands of year people have never came up with such an easy remedy.. -_-' I suggest reading Istvan Luikovic's "electric foil fencing"
Swords have been around for literally THOUSANDS of years. Only until the 1900's did pistol grips come into play, and that was soley because in the new sport of modern fencing that the game and intentions changed. It went from practicality training to a hybrid new dicipline that was a "hit first regardless if you get hit a milli-second later" sport. Which is fine. It just means you were milli-seconds quicker in killing your opponent before you yourself were killed.
@ADirtDiggler How about someone in the 1900's thought "ouch, that italian grip is a bit cumbersome.. I wonder what would happen if I adjusted a bit some of those spanish assymetrical grips..". Swords have been around for quite a lot of time but what you surprisingly fail to mention is the progress of technology. Do you think that in the 1500's someone grumbled "oh, those fancy ricasso's! swords have been around for THOUSANDS of years and such devilry was never needed!"?
@ADirtDiggler Do tell me, what are those vices of the pistol grip apart from that it didn't catch up for some serious duelling? Seriously? Even foils were used in duels in the XIXth and they can't truly be called weapons yet I've never heard of any classical fencer complaining about the classical foil. Fencing became a sport and for that it needed uniform rules. Even with those it still retained much of it's martial art for many decades. Do you even know how much is 300ms in combat?
OF COURSE modern fencing requires skill..but the argument or debate is not about that as a student of classical fencing.I honestly believe modern fencing has entered into that realm of being its own unique dicipline and completely seperate from the traditional school.Modern fencing is more about getting the touch first, regardless of whether you are touched yourself.That is fine if that is what you enjoy.I enjoy the game of not being touched as MORE important than getting a touch.
@ADirtDiggler Getting the touch first? Why you only speak of the epee? Is the sport sabre and foil also about hitting first? Is your idea of classical fencing not about hitting first but just with a longer cutover time? Where do you draw the line for that?
I speak of any sword dicipline.Fencing, as it is really was in the beginning stages,was replicating an actual sword fight/duel.Emphasis was in the mindset that when training, you must approach the duel as if the weapons were indeed pointy and you were not wearing a mask and protective gear.Next time you have a duel in whatever dicipline you practice,try to adopt that mindset.It changes the game, trust me!If you fence with the thought of not trying to "die", you become very defensive.
@ADirtDiggler Oh come on, you watch this vid above and think discipline? Do not mistake laziness and lack of proper footwork as discipline. Discipline is what Pavel Kolobkov showed the world during the Challenge Bernadotte where he landed 6 points in the last 6 seconds in the finals. Do you think that it's really that different when a person is afraid to die and when a fencer is at a 14-14 in the final of the olympic games? In classical fencing there are almost no emotions, comparing to that.
So you have your opinion and I have mine.lets agree on this.Modern sport fencing is a completely different dicipline than traditional fencing.That is what it really comes down to. Neither is better or worse, just different. All that I said really is that modern sport fencing is a game that requires you to get a touch before the other guy, period. Classical fencing holds onto its roots of being a training for actual real life sword fights or duels.
@ADirtDiggler I call shenanigans! So first of you start criticizing some videos, speaking down to other fencers and now you're like 'let's agree to disagree'? My case - neither of us is better or worse, all I'm really implying is that you're a douchebag, period.
Also - please show some cases of proper classical fencing that you think is representative of what is desired in "the Art". Show some of those roots and training for actual real life sword duels. The vid above? Oh please..
You're response here tells me all I need to know about you...personal attacks are pretty immature.How am I criticizing this video?!I am a student and proponent of Classical Fencing and studied under Maestro Evangelista!There are videos on Youtube of actual duels with real swords that are FAR more resembling Classical fencing as shown in this video as compared to the Modern sport and that which is done in the Olympics and such.I was originally replying to negative posts on this video.
migopod--All this because of some bizarre, perhaps erotic obsession sporties have with Nick. In the old days men fenced in long pants, as I do. Please visit us in Soest. We will not mind your knickers. Meanwhile, this middle-schoolish mobbing has spilled over from another site and it now bores me to respond. I am content, and now have other things to do. Thanks!
Bill, Fair enough. I have no intention of harassing you further. If I ever find myself in Soest, I'll definitely pay you a visit. Similarly, if you find yourself in Milwaukee please let me know. I'll gladly buy you a good Milwaukee beer and have a bout or two with you. Not necessarily in that order :D
I will happily explain. I think your judgments are phony baloney, based on standards I have not seen you display or attain. Second, this passion for video is now a substitute for flesh-and-blood fencing except among cliques that agree with each other or and can safely share their narcissism. It is paralleled by false textuality--because you say it it must be so--without real knowledge, which is also a kind of magical thinking. Third, I could give two hoots about impressing you.
Frankly I doubt I'd have been impressed, but I was hoping to at least see what it's supposed to look like. I don't consider my own fencing to be perfect, that's why I do things like practice, take lessons and compete. I do know enough about what is and is not good technical ability to be able to identify both quite easily. I have also not seen you or yours display or attain standards that you claim to hold. Video can't replace an expert, but it's better than posed photos and etchings.
Refusing to deviate, hmm? So you want us to travel thousands of miles to prove a point, but not spend a few minutes doing an upload? Of course there's no replacement for reality, then-and-there, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't just stop there...I guess we should discontinue using snail-mail as well, because we need to pay our bills in person...and never the Interenet...we're all a cesspool besides you and Evangelista, apparently.
the main problem that classicists have with modern fencing is that modern fencing focuses more on athleticism than actual skill, and the easiest way to train yourself for modern fencing is to simply become very fast, and have good balance. Why you find yourself in arguments with classical fencers so often is that they (and I) refuse to acknowledge that modern fencing is anything more than a sport- like basketball, etc.
Not trying to flame here either, but the belief among classicists that "modern fencing" does not involve skill is simply incorrect. A good sense of timing and distance, point control and accuracy and solid footwork are critical to success. At lower levels of the sport it is easy to ride on speed and athleticism, but in order to do well it takes much more than that. You are right though, it is a sport. Most of us just don't see the point of training to kill people with swords anymore.
now, I'm not looking to get into a flame war with you (as I see one has already happened on the comments to this video, another one would prove nothing) I just would like you to see where the classicists are coming from. Classical fencing, however, was developed as a form of combat, and was the most efficient way to kill someone with a blade. "Modern" fencing (athleticism, speed and making a light go off) is very similar to the style of sword play fencing replaced in the first place.
fencing-dot--I can understand you are at a loss, I really can. We are making a DVD basic course in foil, but it is based on the Scuola Magisteriale. When done, I will gladly send it to you. We have withdrawn from active internet stuff. I am here only to defend Nick from idiocy. Otherwise, the web is a cesspool.
We have posted beginners in their 30s and got sneers. I cannot understand this passion for videos. Fencing is 400 years old. Prouced a huge literature that is pretty consistent about good fencing. Oh! Jeans constrain the legs? Oh lord have mercy. But you must mean something like, "The orthopedic grip is healthier for the hand?"
The passion for video is because you make claims that your type of fencing is correct and emphasizes correct form etc. Videos that I have seen have demonstrated poor distance, sloppy footwork bad timing and tempo and overly large and inefficient blade actions. When this is pointed out it's explained by stating that the fencers shown are just beginners and can't be expected to fence well. I would very much like to see an example of what you deem good form from someone who can actually do it.
There's a saying in my country which goes like this - "the paper is patient and it will accept anything". Unedited videos however carry a bigger load of information and I think that's why everyone like videos in regard to judging one's fencing skills.
About the jeans - I'm pretty sure they do constrain the legs, I have recently ruined my favourite pair of jeans because I wanted to show a lunge while wearing them. Also - why the pistol grip should be scoffed at?
My final comment in two parts) : I became involved in this only because Nick was, once again, the headline target of an attack by minions of the USFA. The hypocrisy in these comments is stunning. Fact--the USFA is in financial trouble, tournament entries have plummeted. So, they lash out.The FIE is a mess--not one recent World Cup w/o organizational or refereeing problems, for example. Part 2 next.
Minions of the USFA? And we're the jerks? Do you really think the USFA sent us purposely, or even mean to imply it? Show me any Classical tourney that hasn't had reffing problems? Most Classical salles can't even agree on common actions IIRC, let alone a common ruleset. I understand and respect different ways of doing things, but I'm sure Classicists have had more than one intense debate over a point...and then of course there's far more of sport, so we'll have more worse problems by default
Well, fencing-dot, the medals are not important, it is the way the medals are won. I would prefer they be won by fencing, you would prefer just medals any way they are won.
@PissedFechtmeister It wasa pseudo-rhetorical question. I mean to imply that fencing is more than simply "touch without being touched" etc., for although modern fencers are often accused of over-simplifaction and over-complication, I believe that moderate amounts of both are necessary, both then and now. There is so much more to fencing that that simple guideline; to imply otherwise virtually defeats the purpose of the sport/art.
Do not be so defensive, Mr. Hahn. How things insert into the pelvis is the issue. However, I must say I am sceptical of all claims of superiority, perfection, transcendence in any human endeavor. These claims abound on the internet and among fencers, who were well ahead of the Teabaggers in the US in screaming, intolerance, lack of introspection, and modesty in inverse proportion to real knowledge. The moment someone uses such words as "incorrect" or "unqualified" I peg him as a jerk.
"Teabaggers" are US paranoid right-wingers. As for the pistol grip--you are too young, jbujko, to know that after Rome in '82 the entire FIE medical team urged the pistol grip be banned. We got body armor and "metrics" of winning instead of good fencing, now the see-through mask. Advice--don't wear designer jeans. Bad for your sperm, too. Look at your own video before you jump Nick like the US lynch mob has. Or are they secretly in love with him? I am done. Period. Be happy.
Well, I always analyse my vids. Thanks to that - I'm aware of what I do wrong and what needs more practice. I'm no Maestro, I claim no such rank in contrast to Mr. Evangelista. I don't understand why You keep bringing up this love and erotic arousal for Mr Evangelista - why do You keep trying to get everyone sidetracked?
Probably because he's too busy being "virtuous" by pegging us as "jerks." You've made multiple insults against us Bill, yet you and Nick are beyond any review? How do you make any corrections at all with any fencing at all, or your coach/maestro, etc., without using any negative terms, particularly considering "incorrect" is one of hte most neutral one could use?
The snide comments need a reply. This clip shows Nick having fun with a student, not putting on a show for the mob of "fencing" ignoramuses out there. Hey, jbujko, if you need a costume to perform good footwork, you ain't no fencer. And the footwork of the "Olympic athletes" I have seen shows they ain't fencers, either. Grow up, little people.
Those look like hops in this video to me and he is keeping his weight very forward while constantly straightening his legs... And the student is fencing with the toe/knee totally out of alignment and he doesn't seem to have a problem with it. Not very classical. And neither of them maintain proper guard height or hold any lines. Looks a lot more like the bladework at my modern salle. None of my classical trainers would ever drop form like that for fun, if that's indeed what is going on.
Mr. Hahn, you miss the whole point of the video. Totally. It is not there to display virtuosity at all. And your comment on the toe-knee alignment of the female student, who is not an advanced fencer, betrays ignorance of the physiological differences between men and women--correct alignment should not be forced with risk of stress injury.
Maybe I have been lucky in my Salle experience in that I've always had very strict instructors. I am willing to accept that I might not have had the "average" experience. I do know, however, that men and women have differences in the HIPS and not the KNEES. The student there has the knee and toe at an angle like what I would use in Muay Thai and is unable to complete a proper lunge because of it as the knee is acting as a roadblock. My trainers have always harped on that from lesson 1.
And if I miss the point of the video, I apologize. The title is Traditional Fencing and the description indicates the supposed quality of the left fencer and how recent the video is. I assumed it was a demonstration of traditional fencing and not a jovial messing around with a student that is obviously too inexperienced to have her teacher show the "virtues" of broken form. I apologize for critiquing as if it were a demonstration of tradition. Entschuldigen Sie bitte meine Unwissenheit.
Bill - Hey there! Thanks for the attention to this. I thought about the comment I made and removed it as was pointed out that this video is in no way an example of high proficiency but is rather just goofing around. Fair enough.
As to a "costume" for footwork - Jeans constrain the legs such that a good, proper lunge and properly balanced footwork are much more difficult to execute.
Please point us to an example of a serious video on the subject and we can comment there or on the forum.
I second this request. I've only seen videos of beginners or in this case goofing off. I very sincerely would like to see some video of people who are considered proficient fencing the way you teach fencing. Can you please provide a link to such a video, or perhaps upload some video of maybe your more advanced students?
It makes me so sad that this is the man trying to represent classical fencing. The average fencer at the classical and modern salles that I attend have better foot and bladework than that. Classical is supposed to use more efficient movements... not that slop.
I know better, Mr. Hahn. I have seen too many salles on two continents to buy the holier-than-thou.--"the average fencer" does not, alas, have better, certainly not consistently better, foot- and bladework. At any rate, the video is an assault on such often clueless pretension. The internet has become an arena for virtual righteousness free of cognitive dissonance or modesty, sort of a place like Lake Woebegone,where all the women are good-looking and all the children above average..
"Horrific" powertoiletduck? Video allows "fencers" a safe way to "fence" with those whom they know, so with no risk, no reality, either, and promote themselves as little geniuses who never deviate from the perfect. Then they can use the electronic illusion to bully and displace their own feelings of inadequacy. That, oh child, is the horror.
Wait wait what? I thought Classical fencing wasn't supposed to deviate on princple? It was supposed to emulate/train for a real encounter. Have you ever even fenced an Olympic fencer of equivalent experience, dry or on the box?
Real encounter based on historical precedent and period weapons, that is. If one were to train to that period...how could you deviate at all "the perfect?" Fencing's always going to deviate, particularly modern fencing I think; deviation I would argue has defined its existance, much more than not.
k00141d is, and so am I, very. When you have made contributions to fencing like Nick's, maybe I will let you get away with kiddie-churl comments, but you'll have to show me something on the strip, not a video, first.
UGHH! Why don't you have a club for those outside of the university? Like younger people in middle and highschool? This seems like such an interesting sport but I'm too young to go the college.
xCatiePopx 4 months ago
WHat amazes me is the idea that the pistol grip is an advancement, as if in the THOUSANDS of years men have been fighting with swords they would never have come up with such an easy remedy to their clumsy martial art!!! THe pistol grip is a unique detail that only serves the modern sport fencing. If you are wanting to replicate an actual duel where you would NEVER want to be stabbed, you would never need a pistol grip. That is all it comes down to.
ADirtDiggler 1 year ago
@ADirtDiggler Man, what's your experience with pistol grips? They do have all the perks of french and italin grips and none of their flaws. If you'd actually wanted to recrete modern duels then dismissing pistol grips would be a really unjustified idea.
The pistol grip is a huge advancement that came into being in the 1900's so you can't really say that in thousands of year people have never came up with such an easy remedy.. -_-' I suggest reading Istvan Luikovic's "electric foil fencing"
jbujko 11 months ago
@jbujko
Swords have been around for literally THOUSANDS of years. Only until the 1900's did pistol grips come into play, and that was soley because in the new sport of modern fencing that the game and intentions changed. It went from practicality training to a hybrid new dicipline that was a "hit first regardless if you get hit a milli-second later" sport. Which is fine. It just means you were milli-seconds quicker in killing your opponent before you yourself were killed.
ADirtDiggler 11 months ago
@ADirtDiggler How about someone in the 1900's thought "ouch, that italian grip is a bit cumbersome.. I wonder what would happen if I adjusted a bit some of those spanish assymetrical grips..". Swords have been around for quite a lot of time but what you surprisingly fail to mention is the progress of technology. Do you think that in the 1500's someone grumbled "oh, those fancy ricasso's! swords have been around for THOUSANDS of years and such devilry was never needed!"?
jbujko 11 months ago
@ADirtDiggler Do tell me, what are those vices of the pistol grip apart from that it didn't catch up for some serious duelling? Seriously? Even foils were used in duels in the XIXth and they can't truly be called weapons yet I've never heard of any classical fencer complaining about the classical foil. Fencing became a sport and for that it needed uniform rules. Even with those it still retained much of it's martial art for many decades. Do you even know how much is 300ms in combat?
jbujko 11 months ago
OF COURSE modern fencing requires skill..but the argument or debate is not about that as a student of classical fencing.I honestly believe modern fencing has entered into that realm of being its own unique dicipline and completely seperate from the traditional school.Modern fencing is more about getting the touch first, regardless of whether you are touched yourself.That is fine if that is what you enjoy.I enjoy the game of not being touched as MORE important than getting a touch.
ADirtDiggler 1 year ago
@ADirtDiggler Getting the touch first? Why you only speak of the epee? Is the sport sabre and foil also about hitting first? Is your idea of classical fencing not about hitting first but just with a longer cutover time? Where do you draw the line for that?
jbujko 11 months ago
@jbujko
I speak of any sword dicipline.Fencing, as it is really was in the beginning stages,was replicating an actual sword fight/duel.Emphasis was in the mindset that when training, you must approach the duel as if the weapons were indeed pointy and you were not wearing a mask and protective gear.Next time you have a duel in whatever dicipline you practice,try to adopt that mindset.It changes the game, trust me!If you fence with the thought of not trying to "die", you become very defensive.
ADirtDiggler 11 months ago
@ADirtDiggler Oh come on, you watch this vid above and think discipline? Do not mistake laziness and lack of proper footwork as discipline. Discipline is what Pavel Kolobkov showed the world during the Challenge Bernadotte where he landed 6 points in the last 6 seconds in the finals. Do you think that it's really that different when a person is afraid to die and when a fencer is at a 14-14 in the final of the olympic games? In classical fencing there are almost no emotions, comparing to that.
jbujko 11 months ago
@jbujko
So you have your opinion and I have mine.lets agree on this.Modern sport fencing is a completely different dicipline than traditional fencing.That is what it really comes down to. Neither is better or worse, just different. All that I said really is that modern sport fencing is a game that requires you to get a touch before the other guy, period. Classical fencing holds onto its roots of being a training for actual real life sword fights or duels.
ADirtDiggler 11 months ago
@ADirtDiggler I call shenanigans! So first of you start criticizing some videos, speaking down to other fencers and now you're like 'let's agree to disagree'? My case - neither of us is better or worse, all I'm really implying is that you're a douchebag, period.
Also - please show some cases of proper classical fencing that you think is representative of what is desired in "the Art". Show some of those roots and training for actual real life sword duels. The vid above? Oh please..
jbujko 11 months ago
@jbujko
You're response here tells me all I need to know about you...personal attacks are pretty immature.How am I criticizing this video?!I am a student and proponent of Classical Fencing and studied under Maestro Evangelista!There are videos on Youtube of actual duels with real swords that are FAR more resembling Classical fencing as shown in this video as compared to the Modern sport and that which is done in the Olympics and such.I was originally replying to negative posts on this video.
ADirtDiggler 11 months ago
migopod--All this because of some bizarre, perhaps erotic obsession sporties have with Nick. In the old days men fenced in long pants, as I do. Please visit us in Soest. We will not mind your knickers. Meanwhile, this middle-schoolish mobbing has spilled over from another site and it now bores me to respond. I am content, and now have other things to do. Thanks!
Bill51574 2 years ago
Bill, Fair enough. I have no intention of harassing you further. If I ever find myself in Soest, I'll definitely pay you a visit. Similarly, if you find yourself in Milwaukee please let me know. I'll gladly buy you a good Milwaukee beer and have a bout or two with you. Not necessarily in that order :D
migopod 2 years ago
Oh, and by the way, I really don't care for Ayn Rand.
migopod 2 years ago
"In the old days men fenced in long pants" except those 300years from around the 1500 AD :)
jbujko 2 years ago
I will happily explain. I think your judgments are phony baloney, based on standards I have not seen you display or attain. Second, this passion for video is now a substitute for flesh-and-blood fencing except among cliques that agree with each other or and can safely share their narcissism. It is paralleled by false textuality--because you say it it must be so--without real knowledge, which is also a kind of magical thinking. Third, I could give two hoots about impressing you.
Bill51574 2 years ago
Frankly I doubt I'd have been impressed, but I was hoping to at least see what it's supposed to look like. I don't consider my own fencing to be perfect, that's why I do things like practice, take lessons and compete. I do know enough about what is and is not good technical ability to be able to identify both quite easily. I have also not seen you or yours display or attain standards that you claim to hold. Video can't replace an expert, but it's better than posed photos and etchings.
migopod 2 years ago
Refusing to deviate, hmm? So you want us to travel thousands of miles to prove a point, but not spend a few minutes doing an upload? Of course there's no replacement for reality, then-and-there, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't just stop there...I guess we should discontinue using snail-mail as well, because we need to pay our bills in person...and never the Interenet...we're all a cesspool besides you and Evangelista, apparently.
TimberwolfCY 2 years ago
the main problem that classicists have with modern fencing is that modern fencing focuses more on athleticism than actual skill, and the easiest way to train yourself for modern fencing is to simply become very fast, and have good balance. Why you find yourself in arguments with classical fencers so often is that they (and I) refuse to acknowledge that modern fencing is anything more than a sport- like basketball, etc.
Spectraeon 2 years ago
Not trying to flame here either, but the belief among classicists that "modern fencing" does not involve skill is simply incorrect. A good sense of timing and distance, point control and accuracy and solid footwork are critical to success. At lower levels of the sport it is easy to ride on speed and athleticism, but in order to do well it takes much more than that. You are right though, it is a sport. Most of us just don't see the point of training to kill people with swords anymore.
migopod 2 years ago
now, I'm not looking to get into a flame war with you (as I see one has already happened on the comments to this video, another one would prove nothing) I just would like you to see where the classicists are coming from. Classical fencing, however, was developed as a form of combat, and was the most efficient way to kill someone with a blade. "Modern" fencing (athleticism, speed and making a light go off) is very similar to the style of sword play fencing replaced in the first place.
Spectraeon 2 years ago
fencing-dot--I can understand you are at a loss, I really can. We are making a DVD basic course in foil, but it is based on the Scuola Magisteriale. When done, I will gladly send it to you. We have withdrawn from active internet stuff. I am here only to defend Nick from idiocy. Otherwise, the web is a cesspool.
Bill51574 2 years ago
We have posted beginners in their 30s and got sneers. I cannot understand this passion for videos. Fencing is 400 years old. Prouced a huge literature that is pretty consistent about good fencing. Oh! Jeans constrain the legs? Oh lord have mercy. But you must mean something like, "The orthopedic grip is healthier for the hand?"
Bill51574 2 years ago
The passion for video is because you make claims that your type of fencing is correct and emphasizes correct form etc. Videos that I have seen have demonstrated poor distance, sloppy footwork bad timing and tempo and overly large and inefficient blade actions. When this is pointed out it's explained by stating that the fencers shown are just beginners and can't be expected to fence well. I would very much like to see an example of what you deem good form from someone who can actually do it.
migopod 2 years ago
There's a saying in my country which goes like this - "the paper is patient and it will accept anything". Unedited videos however carry a bigger load of information and I think that's why everyone like videos in regard to judging one's fencing skills.
About the jeans - I'm pretty sure they do constrain the legs, I have recently ruined my favourite pair of jeans because I wanted to show a lunge while wearing them. Also - why the pistol grip should be scoffed at?
jbujko 2 years ago
My final comment in two parts) : I became involved in this only because Nick was, once again, the headline target of an attack by minions of the USFA. The hypocrisy in these comments is stunning. Fact--the USFA is in financial trouble, tournament entries have plummeted. So, they lash out.The FIE is a mess--not one recent World Cup w/o organizational or refereeing problems, for example. Part 2 next.
Bill51574 2 years ago
Minions of the USFA? And we're the jerks? Do you really think the USFA sent us purposely, or even mean to imply it? Show me any Classical tourney that hasn't had reffing problems? Most Classical salles can't even agree on common actions IIRC, let alone a common ruleset. I understand and respect different ways of doing things, but I'm sure Classicists have had more than one intense debate over a point...and then of course there's far more of sport, so we'll have more worse problems by default
TimberwolfCY 2 years ago
Also, great work dodging the points...ALL of them...aren't Classicists supposed to acknowledge touches unsolicited...or at least offer a defence?
TimberwolfCY 2 years ago
Well, fencing-dot, the medals are not important, it is the way the medals are won. I would prefer they be won by fencing, you would prefer just medals any way they are won.
Bill51574 2 years ago
Define fencing. Surely you have space for two different-however-similar definitions...like, "light" and "light."
TimberwolfCY 2 years ago
@TimberwolfCY Fencing is the art of giving without receiving.
PissedFechtmeister 1 year ago
@PissedFechtmeister It wasa pseudo-rhetorical question. I mean to imply that fencing is more than simply "touch without being touched" etc., for although modern fencers are often accused of over-simplifaction and over-complication, I believe that moderate amounts of both are necessary, both then and now. There is so much more to fencing that that simple guideline; to imply otherwise virtually defeats the purpose of the sport/art.
TimberwolfCY 1 year ago
Kein Thema, Herr Hahn.
Bill51574 2 years ago
Do not be so defensive, Mr. Hahn. How things insert into the pelvis is the issue. However, I must say I am sceptical of all claims of superiority, perfection, transcendence in any human endeavor. These claims abound on the internet and among fencers, who were well ahead of the Teabaggers in the US in screaming, intolerance, lack of introspection, and modesty in inverse proportion to real knowledge. The moment someone uses such words as "incorrect" or "unqualified" I peg him as a jerk.
Bill51574 2 years ago
But Bill, didn't You label the footwork of Vezzalli as "incorrect" and "unqualified" on the forum..? O_o
Also - Teabaggers..? English is far from being my first language but I've heard about "teabagging" but I think it's..hmm.. not related to fencing..
jbujko 2 years ago
"Teabaggers" are US paranoid right-wingers. As for the pistol grip--you are too young, jbujko, to know that after Rome in '82 the entire FIE medical team urged the pistol grip be banned. We got body armor and "metrics" of winning instead of good fencing, now the see-through mask. Advice--don't wear designer jeans. Bad for your sperm, too. Look at your own video before you jump Nick like the US lynch mob has. Or are they secretly in love with him? I am done. Period. Be happy.
Bill51574 2 years ago
Well, I always analyse my vids. Thanks to that - I'm aware of what I do wrong and what needs more practice. I'm no Maestro, I claim no such rank in contrast to Mr. Evangelista. I don't understand why You keep bringing up this love and erotic arousal for Mr Evangelista - why do You keep trying to get everyone sidetracked?
jbujko 2 years ago
Probably because he's too busy being "virtuous" by pegging us as "jerks." You've made multiple insults against us Bill, yet you and Nick are beyond any review? How do you make any corrections at all with any fencing at all, or your coach/maestro, etc., without using any negative terms, particularly considering "incorrect" is one of hte most neutral one could use?
TimberwolfCY 2 years ago
The snide comments need a reply. This clip shows Nick having fun with a student, not putting on a show for the mob of "fencing" ignoramuses out there. Hey, jbujko, if you need a costume to perform good footwork, you ain't no fencer. And the footwork of the "Olympic athletes" I have seen shows they ain't fencers, either. Grow up, little people.
Bill51574 2 years ago
Those look like hops in this video to me and he is keeping his weight very forward while constantly straightening his legs... And the student is fencing with the toe/knee totally out of alignment and he doesn't seem to have a problem with it. Not very classical. And neither of them maintain proper guard height or hold any lines. Looks a lot more like the bladework at my modern salle. None of my classical trainers would ever drop form like that for fun, if that's indeed what is going on.
HahnWG 2 years ago 2
Mr. Hahn, you miss the whole point of the video. Totally. It is not there to display virtuosity at all. And your comment on the toe-knee alignment of the female student, who is not an advanced fencer, betrays ignorance of the physiological differences between men and women--correct alignment should not be forced with risk of stress injury.
Bill51574 2 years ago
Maybe I have been lucky in my Salle experience in that I've always had very strict instructors. I am willing to accept that I might not have had the "average" experience. I do know, however, that men and women have differences in the HIPS and not the KNEES. The student there has the knee and toe at an angle like what I would use in Muay Thai and is unable to complete a proper lunge because of it as the knee is acting as a roadblock. My trainers have always harped on that from lesson 1.
HahnWG 2 years ago
And if I miss the point of the video, I apologize. The title is Traditional Fencing and the description indicates the supposed quality of the left fencer and how recent the video is. I assumed it was a demonstration of traditional fencing and not a jovial messing around with a student that is obviously too inexperienced to have her teacher show the "virtues" of broken form. I apologize for critiquing as if it were a demonstration of tradition. Entschuldigen Sie bitte meine Unwissenheit.
HahnWG 2 years ago 3
Bill - Yet you post on the forum trying to 'correct' the footwork stance of a female fencing with multiple Olympic Gold medals? Please be consistent.
fencingnet 2 years ago
Bill - Hey there! Thanks for the attention to this. I thought about the comment I made and removed it as was pointed out that this video is in no way an example of high proficiency but is rather just goofing around. Fair enough.
As to a "costume" for footwork - Jeans constrain the legs such that a good, proper lunge and properly balanced footwork are much more difficult to execute.
Please point us to an example of a serious video on the subject and we can comment there or on the forum.
fencingnet 2 years ago
I second this request. I've only seen videos of beginners or in this case goofing off. I very sincerely would like to see some video of people who are considered proficient fencing the way you teach fencing. Can you please provide a link to such a video, or perhaps upload some video of maybe your more advanced students?
migopod 2 years ago
It makes me so sad that this is the man trying to represent classical fencing. The average fencer at the classical and modern salles that I attend have better foot and bladework than that. Classical is supposed to use more efficient movements... not that slop.
HahnWG 2 years ago
I know better, Mr. Hahn. I have seen too many salles on two continents to buy the holier-than-thou.--"the average fencer" does not, alas, have better, certainly not consistently better, foot- and bladework. At any rate, the video is an assault on such often clueless pretension. The internet has become an arena for virtual righteousness free of cognitive dissonance or modesty, sort of a place like Lake Woebegone,where all the women are good-looking and all the children above average..
Bill51574 2 years ago
That is horrific fencing. I can't believe this guy actually writes books on fencing and criticises Olympic athletes.
powertoiletduck 2 years ago 2
"Horrific" powertoiletduck? Video allows "fencers" a safe way to "fence" with those whom they know, so with no risk, no reality, either, and promote themselves as little geniuses who never deviate from the perfect. Then they can use the electronic illusion to bully and displace their own feelings of inadequacy. That, oh child, is the horror.
Bill51574 2 years ago
What the heck do you mean here? The fencers are fencing each other, not some video construct attached to a Wii.
Are you objecting to video of fencing existing? I'm really at a loss as to what your real point is here.
fencingnet 2 years ago
Wait wait what? I thought Classical fencing wasn't supposed to deviate on princple? It was supposed to emulate/train for a real encounter. Have you ever even fenced an Olympic fencer of equivalent experience, dry or on the box?
TimberwolfCY 2 years ago
Real encounter based on historical precedent and period weapons, that is. If one were to train to that period...how could you deviate at all "the perfect?" Fencing's always going to deviate, particularly modern fencing I think; deviation I would argue has defined its existance, much more than not.
TimberwolfCY 2 years ago
I feel bad for the student. She might have potential if she got an actual coach.
Interesting also to note that Mr Evangelista's hate on modern fencing extends to masks manufactured within the past 10 years or so.
migopod 2 years ago
because vintage masks are cool ;) Screw safety!
jbujko 2 years ago 4
Comment removed
fencingnet 2 years ago
Looks like one cannot have a decent footwork while one's fencing in jeans
jbujko 2 years ago
Fencingnet, could the bladework be any larger? Yes, on your website.
Bill51574 2 years ago
Err.. I'm no Nadi myself but is this really Evangelista on the left? I thought he was.. I don't know.. Better?
jbujko 2 years ago
Great fencing. I took fencing lessons from Nick for 4 years, hes truly the greatest. Keep up the goodwork guys.
k00l41d 2 years ago
you can't be serious.
powertoiletduck 2 years ago
k00141d is, and so am I, very. When you have made contributions to fencing like Nick's, maybe I will let you get away with kiddie-churl comments, but you'll have to show me something on the strip, not a video, first.
Bill51574 2 years ago