Although, there were quite a few good Peter Davison and two sweet Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy episodes (Caves Of Androzani, Earthshock, Resurrection Of The Daleks, Attack Of The Cybermen, Remembrance Of The Daleks). The McGann movie, Sarah Jane's return, and Amy Pond's legs are about it though as far as later highlights go. Overall, your idea of an Inferno style universe would have been the way to go... with the new series being the crappy nasty parallel world that blew up cuz it sucks.
@elfhermie Actually, now that I made it to the end of the entire run-on sentence laden video, I see that your parallel world still revived the series as it is today. Too bad. You had a good idea until then. The new Doctor Who has gained tons of totally new fans, true, but for completely different reasons and a huge majority of them are girls who are in love with the younger Doctors and the soapish stories. No real Whovian can say the new show resembles the old at all. It's NOT Doctor Who.
@IHateThatMonkey Because it sucks that's why. Why can't kids love spoiled red beets? Why can't grown men love soggy cooked cauliflower? Why can't women love dollar store chocolates for Valentine's Day? Because all of these things suck for most people who have good taste and expect better. If you actually really like it for real and aren't just convincing yourself it's good because you like all that is Doctor Who, though, more power to ya. The rest of us really wish we could like it.
@elfhermie oh so when people talk about how much they hate something it's like, hey no problem! but when someone talks about how much it annoys the living crap out of someone who's tired of people bashing something he/she loves, well i might as well take children out on the street and start shooting them!
the latest doctor who shows are getting real bad!! last week we saw jokes about the doctor being part of a gay couple looking after a baby with that James Corden? who is the most un-funny comic around in the uk!!! the whole thing was bad taste! and the Cybermen were put as a last thought to the scrpt!!!!!!!!! horrible
@Fender1976uk I thought the ending of Closing Time was a real insult to the Cybermen and to the inherently frightening concept of conversion. I do have high hopes for the coming finale, but I must admit as a fan who was completely team-Moffat throughout Series 5, the second half of Series 6 has really become more and more of a mess as it's gone on (having said that, The Girl Who Waited was a good one)
It certainly would have ended at its peak. The show has become like an old Rock Star that just doesn't have IT anymore. So creative and bursting with raw energy in the early days. There comes a point when you have to retire.
@MetalheadJay78 I feel had it ended on Logopolis, the brand could have continued in novels, which would be a better medium for the multi-companion dynamic, and high concept ideas like Castrovalva. The prose medium would ensure a coherence of characterisation and narrative that was lost under JNT. At this point, Christopher Priest was lined up to write for the series (JNT fell out with him before it could happen though) had he written for the novels it'd be a boost of sci-fi credibility to Who.
@sadako24 That's a good idea but I would have preferred Tom Baker stay on for three more seasons and then end it in 1984. I could get behind an animated series as well. Heck, we could have Tom Baker back(sorta) as The Doc if they did that today!
@MetalheadJay78 I was fine with Tom Baker leaving in 81 and making way for Davison. I just think Davison was served with some utterly rotten stories and weak characterisation. He should have gotten more stories like Enlightenment and Caves of Androzani, whilst scripts like Time-Flight and Warriors of the Deep should never have got past edit stage, let alone production. Unfortunately 10 years of JNT's era seemed enough to leave fandom with enough diminished expectations to praise RTD's awful era
@sadako24 Earthshock was ace in billions of ways, and it brought the Cybermen back after seven years of absence. It also killed off Adric, in a dramatic way and Adric's demise has never been forgetten in nearly thirty years.
@sadako24 RTD's era is not celebrated because of "diminished expectations", it's praised because it's actually GOOD, a lot of Old Who doesnt stand up anymore and the new series is effortlessly better in production and scripting.
@ZipZagginGallifrey no, RTD's era is not good. It's got some good episodes, most of them by Moffat, but in the main it's as tacky, desperate and unimaginative as Doctor Who's ever been since Season 24. Frankly RTD's era looks shockingly dated to me already.
@sadako24 Caves of Androzani for me, was utter crap and I preferred Earthshock, Kinda, the Visitation and Englightenment. Resurrection of the Dalkes was also crap, and depressing in billions of ways too that also like Time-Flight and Warriors of the Deep should never have got past edit stage or even production load of old tosh and trash in billions of ways.
my fave doctor is Davison, how could you think about what it would be like if doctor who ended then, if im not mistaken, your not a fan, ur a hater!!!
@Doctortrek1 Each to their own, I never understood Davison's appeal (although I liked Enlightenment). He may be a very good actor but his character was mostly that of a passive-aggressive appeaser failure. Hardly what the heroic Doctor should be to my mind. I think reducing the Doctor to that did damage the show a whole, as did JNT's narcissistic martyr-complex and control freak management. Enough bad work can form a critical mass as corrosive as any other. So I'd sooner that era didn't happen.
Dragonfire, with the departure of Mell (who I thought was quiet attractive) and the arrival of Ace (very attractive), comes a tad darker than usuall story, Dragonfire is quiet interesting to watch with some funny scenes (the doctor getting bitten by a dragon in episode 1) but is silly about once when unexplained logic has the doctor hanging off a cliff, for the cliffhanger. It's the ending of the story though that 7 turns to a more darker figure, for series 25 and 26.
Delta and the bannerman, a good story with a mad killer and his army out to kill a greenish humanoid woman with a baby like off the incredibles, this story is 1 or 2 times childish, but other than that it's a safisticated plot, and from a cormedic motorbike chase to a confrontation with Gavroc, the mad killer, is where the doctor is a bit more darker than usuall.
About season 24, well, I think (flame shield up) that there are some good stories.Time and the Rani, it can be silly at times but its quiet fun, humorous and builds nicely on Mell's getting used to 7 despite The RANI's attempt to dress up as Mell. Paradice Towers, not the best, and by the fact that the kangs suit more of an item on CBBC. It's quiet childish but has a fun plot. The ending is quiet powerful with Rex proving himself to the kangs by sacraficing his life for the doctor's.
Tom Baker was definately the best Doctor but I did quite liked Peter Davisons first series as the Doctor but the only problem is that he did have too many assistants which didn't help. I've always believed that they should NEVER have gotten rid of Adric. They should have got rid of either Tegan or Nyssa. Having one male and one female companion sort of evens itself out a bit. Adric and Tegan would have been good, just like Sarah and Harry were.
@flares Davison was a good actor but was straight-jacketed as a very weak, appeaser of a Doctor. It's mainly Season 20-21 where his Doctor suffers, in Mawdryn Undead faced with a moral dilemma, he runs away. I felt the multi-companions he had might have been better suited to a novels range than the TV show proper. It's Tegan I would have gotten rid of. She was so negative. Sometimes Davison's better stories Earthshock, Enlightenment convince me The 5 Doctors was where Dr Who should have ended.
@sadako24 Tegan was a crap character, in billions of ways and I wish she had never come along in the first place as she did why she was not killed off instead of Adric is beyond me in billions of ways it reallyis.
@rojblake82 I loved Caves of Androzani, but I could probably live without it since we'd still have plenty of other Robert Holmes stories. Earthshock's very good and I do like The Visitation. Enlightenment actually used Tegan well, showing what a good writer can do with poor characters, and it's good enough to make me occasionally say the show should have ended on The Five Doctors rather than Logopolis. I've never been a fan of Kinda though, found it rather clunky and could never believe in it.
I grew up with the McCoy era, it was only when I started collecting the old shows that I came to realise that they were much, much better. Hartnell to Baker is my favorite section of the series.. I don't really like Davidson to McCoy. I enjoyed Christopher Eccleston and the first couple of Tennant seasons but after that I thought it went VERY downhill and as a loyal fan - finally got bored. Not even watched Matt Smith. Currently watching the 'War Games' just better writting in those days.
@TheF126 I agree Tennant's era was bad, but personally I think Matt Smith is an improvement, I'd recommend giving Series 5 a look (The Christmas Special wasn't that good though).
To be completely honest, it probably should have ended with Tom Baker's tenure...Because to this very day no one has remotely come close to being as excellent in that role as Tom was/is. I think Tom should have stayed on for another two or three seasons being that the writing was rather good up 'til 1984, then end it. The blame for "Dr Who's" downfall is clearly John Nathan Turner. He pretty much forced Tom Baker to leave when he was still on top of his game. Tom actually went to his funeral!
@MetalheadJay78 I think in billions of ways what, you have said about Doctor Who should reallly have been better ended with Tom Balker's tenure... I also don't think the Doctor has been as heroic or, as excellent as Tom was/is Tom was and still is my favourite Doctor I grew up with Tom Baker and to me he was and still is a bloody excellent Doctor and he should have stayed for another two or three seasons. i agree with you on that, one Tom was pretty much elbowed out of Dr Who and it was a shame
@rojblake82, There is no doubt that Tom Baker was and will always be the absolute best Doctor ever. I think Tom did make the best choice leaving in '81. He just couldn't work under Turner and his production crew who were intentionally out to ruin everything that was good about "Doctor Who". Tom had an ego and was pissed off for plenty of good reasons in that final season. I don't blame him for his frustration in the least. Baker knew "Who" and Turner should have listened to him!
@MetalheadJay78 Would you agree with me in this I don't think Peter Davison was the best choice of actor to play the Doctor and for me Dr Who was nothing like it had been. If Tom Baker had stayed on, he would have I am sure encountered the Cybermen again perhaps the story would not have been Earthshock which I once liked I have to admit I much prefer the black and white Cyberstories Tenth Planet, The Moonbase, Tomb of the Cybermen, Wheel in Space and the Invasion they were much better all round
I think if Doctor Who, had really ended in 1981 with Keeper of Traken it would in some ways have been a good thing but then again I wish Tom Baker could have stayed the Doctor for at least ten years or longer even. The thing was Tom had become bloody awkward on set, with the people he was working with he was atagonistic and rude to other people. When Tom decided to resign from Dr Who, the producer, JNT accepted his resignation cheerfully and let Tom go without asking him to reconsider staying.
There were a few problems with Doctor Who in the 80's, John Nathan Turner being the main one, bad scripts and busy bodies in upper BBC management being the others. From taking over the producer's role JNT decided that he wanted to change everything about Doctor Who that had made it a success since 1970, including getting rid of Tom Baker (he was persuaded to quit basically), changing the opening credits, reworking the theme, what companions he was to have and how many.
Most of the companions from the 80's ranged from generically bland to just awful. Many people like to blame the actors that played the doctors from the 80's for the show's downfall in quality but it was the bad scripts. There was a lot of potential in the 80's Doctors that was just plain squandered, Peter Davison is a good actor but the persona they created for him was awful, Colin Baker was fired of course, and Sylvester McCoy's run was cut short by messing with the show's time slot.
@OlegKostoglatov I've listened to the Big Finish audios and it really shows how much better Davison, Colin and McCoy could have been with better scripts. JNT was a control freak and was selective about which writers he'd let on the show, so a lot of good writers got rejected and they were left with scrappings. He also turned the once free-spirited, strong willed Doctor into a puppet- Davison bore the worst of that. But the apathetic BBC leaving him in charge unsupervised so long didn't help.
@sadako24 With Peter Davison in particular I really wish that they would have let him play the Doctor the way he played Tristan Farnan on "All Creatures Great and Small". Another big mistake they made was reviving the Master and then milking the character for as many stories as they could , that was something they purposely tried to avoid after 1970-71. Anthony Ainley's Master became almost a foolish parody of Roger Delgado after a short time, especially combined with the awful scripts.
@OlegKostoglatov I think Davison's best TV stories were Earthshock, Enlightenment and Caves, but listening to audios like Spare Parts & Plague of the Daleks really makes me weep for how much stronger his Doctor could have been on screen. But JNT enforced a neurotic backlash against the late Tom Baker comedy years and cut the show's star down to size. The 80's Master was terribly overused & probably should've been killed off in Castrovalva. His only good stories after were 5 Doctors & Survival.
@sadako24 I agree the Master should have been killed off in Castrovalva and killed off permanently he was, bloody wasted after Castrovalva. I also think Peter Davison was a very vulnerable Doctor in comparison to Tom Baker's Doctor,Peter when he fought the Cybermen in Earthshock did not really defeat them like Patrick Troughton always succeeded in doing. In Earthshock Adric is killed off by being blown up on board a spaceship,which is loaded with bombs and set to smash into the earth Adric dies
@OlegKostoglatov I think in billions of ways John Nathan-Turner started off good as a producer in seasons 18 @19, but after that he became absolutely stupid he was a control freak. I also think the Five Doctors should have been his swansong and also a new producer should have come in. If that had happened it, is possible that Peter Davison might have stayed the Doctor longer than three years. It is also possible, that Colin Baker would have stayed, longer too Sylvester Mccoy was utter crap.
Nearly a minute in, tired of reading that marquee...
On the bright side, no 1980s doctors would mean no Peri (great to look at but so whiny!) - on the other hand, it would mean no Ace. I think the 1980s were a rough time for the show but I certainly wouldn't want to erase that period of the show from history!
john nathan turner and certain people in the BBC are to blame for doctor who being on the wonk in the eighties. there were too many people working to get the show canceled and john nathan turner was coming up with horrible ideas for doctor who and getting very bad script writers on staff. If i had been producer of the show back then i would have sought out private funding for the programme plus i would have got better script writers. i would not have cast colin baker for doctor who at all.
Then in 1990, FOX would broadcast the Doctor Who TV movie starring Paul McGann as the Fifth Doctor and with Eric Roberts as the Master and with Tom Baker as the Fourth Doctor. The Doctor lands in December 30, 1993 and was got shot by gunmen.
I think Who was still basically OK until after Davison left. He may have been to vulnerable but at least there were no bombs that turned people into trees, pantomimesque mortuaries, scientists needing lifts home from Lakertya, robots that called Richard Briers 'Daddy, intergalactic tour buses etc...
By the time Who regained direction in McCoy's second season it was too late...
I felt those pantomime elements you listed were a temporary thing that didin't necessarily taint the core aspects of the show, and by Season 26 they were pretty much gone from the show. The weakening of the Doctor under Davison though I feel did permanent damage because it ruined a long standing hero, making him no longer someone to root for, and that stain on the main character couldn't ever be removed IMO.
This vid gave me a headache, however I followed it to the end cause it was an interesting concept. Despite all the posts being long I read everyone. I am proud to be a fan of a show who's followers can have intelligent discussion over the net without once using the phrases..you r teh gay. pawned, or just breaking out into a complete flame war. To this I say here here Doctor Who fans, Cheers to you. BTW I like were the show went after 81 I like Davis, I think Colin Baker is brilliant.
@Plan9wood Davidson I mean. and I think that McCoy gets a bad rap. Much of the show at that time suffers from a bad case of the 80's. What I don't like is all the 10th Doctor companion love story BS. Also I don't like the poor, sad, lonely Doctor aspect of all the modern stories. That last ep where he went around crying and catching up with all the characters made me cringe during an otherwise good ep. My only hope is that the new Doctor is a happy, upbeat, in it for the adventure sort od Dr.
Thank you, someone else said it. nearly half a bloody hour was wasted on the sentimental drivel. So much for the grand finale. I sincerely hope that Dr Who gets better and better now that Davis is gone.
I think the 80's Doctors always had potential and shone when they had a good script- i.e. Enlightenment, Caves, Revelation but I felt that was undone by so many weak scripts that neutered or derailed the character, but JNT seemed to prefer inexperienced writers because he wanted people he could control. I felt the later McCoy era was where it started improving. I liked Eccleston, but I wasn't impressed with Tennant much, it felt like he was trying to overcompensate for having not much character.
I disagree strongly that JNT and RTD should never have done Doctor Who. As for JNT's turn as the producer, he did stick around too long, and should have left after Colin's first season giving him a decent amount of time on the show. I do think we had some great stories from this era. Earthshock, Snakedance, Kinda, Caves of Androzani, Revelation of the Daleks, and the very fun Two Doctors were all worth watching. I think that other eras of the show had clunkers just as JNT's era did.
I think if JNT had left a season earlier than you suggested (say, on 5 Doctors), the pieces wold still have been in place for Caves, Revelation and 2 Docs to happen, with Eric Saward as script editor who was keen to bring Robert Holmes back. Though hopefuly under a producer that Eric had a better, less bitter, more co-operative and cohesive rapport with, and hopefully without Warriors of the Deep, Twin Dilemma or Season 24 being made (which imho no prior producer would have let get made).
Yes, you have a point there! We would have had a better looking outfit worn by Colin, and he would have possibly been in the role until 1988 at least!;-) Twin Dilemma is a good concept actually in some ways. I think it was a horrible idea that this was a way to repopulate the universe with slugs! And the scene at the end where the Doctor holds Azmael is one of the best 6th Doctor moments!
We should just forbid gays from working in DR WHO!! NO JNT OR RTD! They have both ruined Dr Who completely. Wether it's Casting a POP girl singer, a Black & a Gay for Political Correctness, or covering everything in question marks & celery; they are both a distaster to Dr Who!! Gays are obviously confused people & Dr WHO became a very confused show each time a gay took over!! Lets just remember Dr Who as Tomb of Cybermen, Sea Devils, Talons, Daemons etc! Just Pure Classic Sci-Fi!! (Joke!)
Yeh, I agree that putting a gay producer with a gay rights agenda in Dr. Who and politically correct undertones is a bad idea , although Dr. Who has ALWAYS had a libertarian/leftist leaning undercurrent, but I think puting gay/black people in it just for the sake of it is not good. Also putting a pop tart in it who just wanted to get a leg up on her acting career also not a good idea. As a result Rose Tyler was not my fave companion.
Interesting, part of me agrees with you on this. We would have been spared the squeaky music from Deaf McCulloch, Roger Limb & Paddy Kingsland for a start :)
I think JNT was more suited to light entertainment than Doctor Who, with his populist and (arguably) slightly superficial style of production. However some things improved noticeably under his watch, eg. production design. One problem with the 70s series was the dichotomy between the writers' intentions and what was delivered on screen.
I have to disagree with a few of your statements though. I don't think Who had ever been really strong on political content outside the Pertwee era. I also think it's a tad ridiculous to say that the BBC became reactionary in the 80s! I take it from this statement that your politics are liberal. Well, the BBC weren't biased in a party political manner, but like Channel 4 they've had a cultural liberal bias for a long time. In any case I think overtly political Who will only be divisive :)
Re: what you said about the changes in the programme's ethos & central character, I think in the right hands it could have been done very well. A fallible Doctor is more interesting than the contemporary Doc (imho), who often comes across as a smug, messianic dullard. If a character can develop unknown abilities for the sake of plot convenience and have guest characters hero-worshipping him at the drop of a hat, it reduces the dramatic tension and also makes said character rather uninteresting.
Ultimately anyone's views on this particular subject are purely a matter of opinion. Personally I find the cosy certainties of contemporary Who seriously limiting: it's like a cormfy, familiar pair of slippers. Which is, of course, exactly why some fans of new Who like it! The one season of Who that, more than any other, did seek to challenge viewers - and the Doctor - is my personal favourite. I mean Season Seven of course, and I find the rest of the Pertwee era comparitively cormfy and cosy.
One reason why I have been getting into Blake's 7 lately is that Blake offers a compellingly bleak worldview and flawed characters that are both more challenging and interesting than contemporary Who. Perhaps as a children's programme Who does deserve a bit of indulgence and should aim for whiter-than-white morality (though without the preachiness!), and perhaps I've just outgrown its worldview. In which case one should seek out other fiction for rather darker storytelling.... ;)
I'm not really a fan of New Who, barring Eccleston's one season. That ending to LOTTL was rubbish. The Doctor had been fallible in Inferno, Genesis of the Daleks and Horror of Fang Rock but never for such contrived reasons that made the Doctor look deliberately inept as in the 80s. It seemed JNT dictated the 5th Doctor should be fallible with no thought to how to make it appear natural or not undermine the Doctor's heroic determination. Viewers have no reason to care if the Doctor isn't trying.
The writer of Edge of Darkness said he had much trouble getting political scripts commissioned by the BBC, despite how much politically was going on then. Likewise JNT was very reluctant to allow Vengeance on Varos. My feeling isn't so much political as that Doctor Who should be thoughtful and mean what it has to say. What bugs me about the 80's era is the cheapening hollow insincerity of its homages to past Who. Like Warriors of the Deep and the revisits of the corrupt Gallifrey.
"One problem with the 70s series was the dichotomy between the writers' intentions and what was delivered on screen."
I disagree. The Sea Devils has a clip of Sea Devil corpses rising to the water surface by the side of the navy boats. That one image conveys all the writer wanted to say about mankind's blind aggression. Warriors of the Deep spends four episodes trying to tell us the same thing and nothing on screen supports any of it. 70's stories had a coherence that many 80's stories lacked
That's a good point. What I mean though is that one thing JNT did get right was making sure that the visuals rarely 'clashed' with the script. Compare the different ways that Destiny of the Daleks and Earthshock are brought to screen: the latter's design and direction are totally in keeping with the mood the script went for, whereas Destiny (which is quite bleak on paper) comes across as absurdly camp and retro on screen, with Boney M androids, a nice sunny Skaro and halogen lighting.
Destiny of the Daleks to me had a surreal, sedate look suited to the planet of the living dead -including Davros. I'd say it was an optimistic story,with the Dalek/Movellan stalemate ensuring galactic peace. The cheap production suited stories about declining empires. Earthshock was class! Maybe the last time Dr Who was in good shape.TimeFlight for me was the shark jump-the insincere grieving of Adric hinted the show had lost its soul,and Invasion of Time aside, no prior story was so incoherent.
Look at the story following the Sea Devils for a classic example: on paper The Mutants is a serious postcolonial story, but on screen it takes kitsch to new levels! In JNT stories like Four to Doomsday, The Keeper of Traken, Planet of Fire etc. there's the sense of a production team understanding what the writer is getting at and delivering the kind of sets, costumes and direction that suit the story. Even in a cheap looking tale like Logopolis there is a distinct 'harmony' in the visuals.
But it was undone by incoherent messes (TimeFlight, Warriors of the Deep, Mindwarp), characters' doing reckless, silly actions out of the blue for inexplicable reasons-Tegan mistakes Mawdryn for the Doctor, Nyssa's goodbye striptease, Ingrid karate kicks the Myrka, 7th Doctor dangles from an icecliff. Such contrived danger&senseless deaths cheapened the drama& tension. Like all thought went to the visuals &none went into scripts. But JNT was a producer who didn't want Robert Holmes on the show
In regards to Logopolis, i think that one really worked because you had Peter Grimwade behind the camera, like with Earthshock (Grimwade did fall out with JNT soon after), and also because I think the script lent itself wonderfully to some haunting images, fine acting and also because it had a vaguely 'real-time' presentation to it which I think made it a lot more effective and urgent, almost as if it was really happening, and the scenes of the banalities of Earth really compliment that, I feel.
Perhaps I've overstated it a little: I still think JNT was completely unsuited to Doctor Who, but I do think that credit should be given where it's due and that JNT did exercise a little more thought as to how a story should be delivered on screen than some other producers did. He fatally misunderstood the show in other respects, but I don't think he was the complete disaster some people paint him as. (I don't neccessarily mean you by the way!)
JNT definitely stayed too long. Maybe he should have just done Season 18 as a go-between. If he'd left on Five Doctors he'd be remembered for Logopolis, Earthshock, Enlightenment.But Warriors of the Deep was when the show became what it once railed against- cheapening of life, unquestioning ignorance, reckless& cruel stupidity, and a once self-willed, free-spirited hero reduced to being Eric Saward's voodoo doll.The Doctor becomes such a passive appeaser its like why did he ever leave Gallifrey?
Probably best that this never happened as we'd also have lost Earthshock, Caves of Androzani, Revelation of the Daleks, Curse of Fenric and all the other good stories form the 1980s. Great music though!
infact, it was the new timeslot, a younger ( better looking) doctor and the introduction of regular guest stars that reintroduced me to the series ( i stopped watching around 1978 as i felt the show looked cheap, tacky and too blakes 7!!!) the show was killed when colin baker wore that awful outfit and then the guest stars became more often comedians and the show became cheap pantomine.
Christopher Eccleston as 5???? Man that's weird. But whoever said that he couldn't be 5 it's right, I mean that's like 25 years in that time someone had to try to revive the show, a pilot a movie or something, like in our universe there was a Doctor between series
Season 18 had dismal ratings for Baker and should have alerted the BBC that there were major problems.
DrWho's consistently highest ratings occurred during the 18 serials that paired Elisabeth Sladen with Pertwee/Baker; those 18 serials produced an incredible 37 HRE's (Hi-Rated Episodes of 10 million or more viewers).
In 43 serials over 4 years, the new Series has only managed 4 HRE's.
The is much to be learned from those 18 serials, IF the new producers would look into them!
I totally agree with glnelson1956 regarding the Sladen/Pertwee/Baker eras. Unfortunately it appears as though the "new" Who producers only care about special effects and sappy romantic encounters. What's missing today is that rare chemistry that existed between Baker and Sladen and well written stories that highlighted that chemistry along with great acting. I don't believe you can bring those days back, so hopefully all the stories will soon be available on DVD at some point!
Im a little confused it states this guy got money and casted christopher Eccleston as the 5th doctor.. how is that possible Peter Davidson was the 5th???? at that was long before 2005? other wise this was very informative.. thanx
Basically this is fictional account of what might have happened if the series had been cancelled when Tom Baker was still the Doctor, and had the series then managed to avoid going down the pan in the mid to late 80's.
Lots of informationm, Most of which I didn't know. Misic got a little old afeter a while. Perhaps you need to do a part 2; beacsue we all know it went on for a long while after Tom's death
Anyone who watched the extras on Survival learnt that the idea was to let the show go for a couple of years, 4 at the most, then do a proper return once the BBC was up to "american" standards.
If was to end Earlier, I think a good ending would have been to end Colin Baker's trail of a Time Lord season with him regenerating, but not knowing what into. No offence to Sylvester, but that was when the writing was too poor for words...
As for K-9 there's nothing to say that he wouldn't have been in "Reunion". If they had Cancelled in 81 they may well have still broadcast the Pilot for "K-9 and Company" which may have even been succesful with the absence of Doctor Who itself.
A reaaly intresting Theory. If only they had cancelled in 81. But then how would they have set the transition between Baker and Eccleston? and would the idea of the Time War been created? But I agree that the show would have kept it's dignity had this been the case and we would now have 7 regenerations of the doctor left, not just 3. However we would then only have 1 surviving Old Series Doctor.
As the New Series stands, I don't think the transition between Old and New Who depends on the 80's era at all. Apart from the unofficial Time Crash, and School Reunion wouldn't have K9 in it, and Graeme Harper wouldn't direct any stories. I think the Time War would have fit well with Genesis of the Daleks, and Romana's goodbye in Warrior's Gate. Big Finish wouldn't have any old Doctors though, so they could probably only do spin-offs like Gallifrey and Dalek Empire. Which would be a shame.
Well RTD has said that the First act of the Time War was indeed when the Doctor Tried to Avert the Daleks Creation on Skaro in "Genesis" so really the Time War spans the entire lifetime of the Daleks; From their very creation right up to the present situation concerning Davros and Doctor Number 10 (Or Number 6 if take your Theory into Account)etc.
Time war!? Sounds like something from a B sci-fi movie in the 80s where everyone is wearing body fitting sparkly uniforms and the heroes name is Beef Chestbody.
I love Doctor Who to death, next to the original star wars movies its the greatest sci fi show ever created...nothing will ever top it!! but I have to agree with you on this one.. lol
This is a ludicrous discussion; drwho was never controlled by one writer. There was never creative control. So, drwho can be for you anything you want. For me it is wonky, weird, iconoclastic' tv for smart kids. For others, it's teevee sci-fi, like any other, to be stocked with the rest, bad and good; fanboi stuff, the nerds who try to thread cannon from every production ever done. For others, it's utterly the opposite of its origins; populist, pretty, conformist, rocknroll sexuality, lcd...
At times it's felt as if there really were good and evil forces battling in the world beyond our notice. I mean, since Tom Baker was dressed up in an outfit taken from Edina Monsoons boudoir, it's been a night mare watching the show trying to be like the rest, a sea of retarded sexuality, fans who want nothing more than to court popularity... and all somehow orchestrated by a cross between Liberace and Vicky Pollard. Just a weird, surreal nightmare.
I liked Peter Davidson, when I was watching he seemed like an older brother instead of a father figure, which was nice as the 80's saw a lot of father figures being put out of work and older brothers became role models.
He was also energetic, idealistic and considerate, everything the thatcher era wasnt. He put up with Adric and Teagan for god sake.
And Sylvester McCoy again was'nt bad honest, some great stories.
Interesting point about the younger role models reflecting 80's Britain. I'd never seen it that way. Steven Moffat once said Peter was the consistently best actor to play the Doctor, highlighting how Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker went through periods of clearly being bored in the role, which Peter never did. The problem was JNT, but I think Hartnel or Tom Baker would have protested the demeaning of the character in Warriors of the Deep, Twin Dilemma, but Peter and Colin just did as they were told.
Nice thoughts about an alternate Doctor Who hiatus, however without those 1980's travesties episodes, chance would be higher to put Doctor Who back on track in the 1990's. Since demand from fans would be higher because they couldn't witness the sixth doctors suit.
I presume they would start Doctor Who again way before 2005, probably with all the travesties of the 1990's (X-files, Star Trek and Red Dwarf).
IMHO an alternate Rowan Atkinson as the 5th Doctor.
The song is called Neon Lights and it's by Kraftwerk (it's from the Man Machine album). I'd say the best candidate for 11th Doctor would be David Thewliss from Harry Potter. He'd have that kind of sharp intense intellect that would make a brilliant Doctor.
Thank You and good suggestion. I'm glad it didn't end in 1981 as this when i first started to watch Doctor Who. It was in the news alot that Tom Baker was leaving and i just had to watch Logopolis, as i knew the next actor Peter Davison was and was looking forward to him. I think it was also the Tardis that attracted me to the programme in seeing Tegan getting lost inside it. Have watched ever since bought all the videos and now DVD's. I also liked in 81 the BBC showing the five faces of DW
Logopolis was a very good story, with some excellent acting. The writer of that one was Christopher Bidmead, who also script edited on Tom's last season. I think if he'd stayed on as script editor for Davison's era and Colin's, then the show would have been much better. Bidmead also wrote the Davison episode Frontios, which gave Davison a chance to be more heroic and commanding. I don't think Eric Saward was a good script editor, though he did write Revelation of the Daleks which was brilliant.
My all time favourite storys are The Invasion with Parrick Troughton and many of the Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker Ones. What makes the DVD's is the special fearures you get on them, which are worth buying those for on there own.
Season 11, that was the one with Time Warrior, Monsters of Peladon, Death to the Daleks, Invasion of the Dinosaurs and Planet of the Spiders. Not the best stories, but none of them outright ruined or betrayed the series in the way the JNT/Eric Saward phase of the show did.
None of those stories featured the Doctor strangling his companion (in Twin Dilemma), or praising the 'nobility' of cold blooded mass murderers over their victims (in Warriors of the Deep & Attack of the Cybermen).
Fair enough. I just think Davidson was a very good Doctor when he was given a good script. Enlightenment, Caves and Kinda spring to mind. I dont like C Baker, and I'm not that keen on McCoy. But I think Davidson was good. Fronitos was a very good story from the 1984 season.
If doctor who ended in 1981 I would cry!!! Theres no way I would have found out about it or Tom Baker!! My life wouldn't be the same. I would still be the depresses everyone must die person that I was before, my life was miserable. But now I'm happy. LONG LIVE TOM BAKER AND THE DOCTOR!!!!!!!!
Nice video and an interesting concept, but putting a constantly scrolling ticker-bar over the entire clip is not a good idea. It's very distracting and nausea-inducing when you have to keep following it with your eyes before the text disappears, while trying to look at the images behind it. Why not just buy a microphone and narrate it youself?
I'm glad it didn't but we would not have to had suffered bad episodes like The Twin Dielemma, The Hapiness Patrol, Time and the Rani, The Kings Deamons, Delta and the bannerman and so
It would have been best if he'd left in 1983, and gone out on The Five Doctors, and taken Eric Saward with him. The 1984 season is where it all turned mean spirited and defeatist, it *wasn't* Doctor Who anymore. I wish most of the stories that season hadn't been made.... apart from Caves obviously, but it was only JNT that had kept Robert Holmes off the series for so long, so his replacement would have almost certainly brought him back, so we'd probably still have Caves in some form or another.
And to be honest Sadako, RTD is doing the exactly the same thing. The likes of Boucher, Dicks, Gallagher and Bailey stand no chance of ever writing for the series again while Davies is in charge.
I know I'm going to get into trouble saying this, but I'd be content to see the show end in 1981 if it means eradicating the entire Nathan-Turner era. There were a few gems to be found during the '80's, but the output mostly remained poor and forgettable.
Oh I quite agree. I tried in my video to balance the pros and cons of ending it here, but really I do wish it had ended there. So many stories after this were just travesties.
How DARE you call them Travesties? I know a few dear friends of mine who are travesites. They have feelings, wants, needs, just like any other human and I think...
Although, there were quite a few good Peter Davison and two sweet Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy episodes (Caves Of Androzani, Earthshock, Resurrection Of The Daleks, Attack Of The Cybermen, Remembrance Of The Daleks). The McGann movie, Sarah Jane's return, and Amy Pond's legs are about it though as far as later highlights go. Overall, your idea of an Inferno style universe would have been the way to go... with the new series being the crappy nasty parallel world that blew up cuz it sucks.
elfhermie 2 weeks ago
@elfhermie Actually, now that I made it to the end of the entire run-on sentence laden video, I see that your parallel world still revived the series as it is today. Too bad. You had a good idea until then. The new Doctor Who has gained tons of totally new fans, true, but for completely different reasons and a huge majority of them are girls who are in love with the younger Doctors and the soapish stories. No real Whovian can say the new show resembles the old at all. It's NOT Doctor Who.
elfhermie 2 weeks ago
OH MY GOD!! I AM SOOO TIRED OF PEOPLE WHINING ABOUT HOW BAD THE NEW SERIES IS!!!! WHY CAN'T PEOPLE LIKE IT FOR WHAT IT IS!?!?!?!?!?
IHateThatMonkey 3 weeks ago
@IHateThatMonkey Because it sucks that's why. Why can't kids love spoiled red beets? Why can't grown men love soggy cooked cauliflower? Why can't women love dollar store chocolates for Valentine's Day? Because all of these things suck for most people who have good taste and expect better. If you actually really like it for real and aren't just convincing yourself it's good because you like all that is Doctor Who, though, more power to ya. The rest of us really wish we could like it.
elfhermie 2 weeks ago
@elfhermie oh so when people talk about how much they hate something it's like, hey no problem! but when someone talks about how much it annoys the living crap out of someone who's tired of people bashing something he/she loves, well i might as well take children out on the street and start shooting them!
IHateThatMonkey 2 weeks ago
one last thing! the B/w cyberman storys are better :) they were more creepy and dark in their actions
Fender1976uk 5 months ago
the latest doctor who shows are getting real bad!! last week we saw jokes about the doctor being part of a gay couple looking after a baby with that James Corden? who is the most un-funny comic around in the uk!!! the whole thing was bad taste! and the Cybermen were put as a last thought to the scrpt!!!!!!!!! horrible
Fender1976uk 5 months ago
@Fender1976uk I thought the ending of Closing Time was a real insult to the Cybermen and to the inherently frightening concept of conversion. I do have high hopes for the coming finale, but I must admit as a fan who was completely team-Moffat throughout Series 5, the second half of Series 6 has really become more and more of a mess as it's gone on (having said that, The Girl Who Waited was a good one)
sadako24 5 months ago
Song title?
michael7677 5 months ago
@michael7677 Neon Lights by Kraftwerk.
sadako24 5 months ago
It certainly would have ended at its peak. The show has become like an old Rock Star that just doesn't have IT anymore. So creative and bursting with raw energy in the early days. There comes a point when you have to retire.
MetalheadJay78 6 months ago
@MetalheadJay78 I feel had it ended on Logopolis, the brand could have continued in novels, which would be a better medium for the multi-companion dynamic, and high concept ideas like Castrovalva. The prose medium would ensure a coherence of characterisation and narrative that was lost under JNT. At this point, Christopher Priest was lined up to write for the series (JNT fell out with him before it could happen though) had he written for the novels it'd be a boost of sci-fi credibility to Who.
sadako24 6 months ago
@sadako24 That's a good idea but I would have preferred Tom Baker stay on for three more seasons and then end it in 1984. I could get behind an animated series as well. Heck, we could have Tom Baker back(sorta) as The Doc if they did that today!
MetalheadJay78 6 months ago
@MetalheadJay78 I was fine with Tom Baker leaving in 81 and making way for Davison. I just think Davison was served with some utterly rotten stories and weak characterisation. He should have gotten more stories like Enlightenment and Caves of Androzani, whilst scripts like Time-Flight and Warriors of the Deep should never have got past edit stage, let alone production. Unfortunately 10 years of JNT's era seemed enough to leave fandom with enough diminished expectations to praise RTD's awful era
sadako24 6 months ago
@sadako24 Earthshock was ace in billions of ways, and it brought the Cybermen back after seven years of absence. It also killed off Adric, in a dramatic way and Adric's demise has never been forgetten in nearly thirty years.
rojblake82 5 months ago
@sadako24 RTD's era is not celebrated because of "diminished expectations", it's praised because it's actually GOOD, a lot of Old Who doesnt stand up anymore and the new series is effortlessly better in production and scripting.
ZipZagginGallifrey 3 months ago
@ZipZagginGallifrey no, RTD's era is not good. It's got some good episodes, most of them by Moffat, but in the main it's as tacky, desperate and unimaginative as Doctor Who's ever been since Season 24. Frankly RTD's era looks shockingly dated to me already.
sadako24 2 months ago
@sadako24 Caves of Androzani for me, was utter crap and I preferred Earthshock, Kinda, the Visitation and Englightenment. Resurrection of the Dalkes was also crap, and depressing in billions of ways too that also like Time-Flight and Warriors of the Deep should never have got past edit stage or even production load of old tosh and trash in billions of ways.
rojblake82 2 months ago
my fave doctor is Davison, how could you think about what it would be like if doctor who ended then, if im not mistaken, your not a fan, ur a hater!!!
Doctortrek1 9 months ago
@Doctortrek1 Each to their own, I never understood Davison's appeal (although I liked Enlightenment). He may be a very good actor but his character was mostly that of a passive-aggressive appeaser failure. Hardly what the heroic Doctor should be to my mind. I think reducing the Doctor to that did damage the show a whole, as did JNT's narcissistic martyr-complex and control freak management. Enough bad work can form a critical mass as corrosive as any other. So I'd sooner that era didn't happen.
sadako24 9 months ago
@Doctortrek1 It's not hating, it's being honest and the reasoning is good.
MetalheadJay78 6 months ago
Dragonfire, with the departure of Mell (who I thought was quiet attractive) and the arrival of Ace (very attractive), comes a tad darker than usuall story, Dragonfire is quiet interesting to watch with some funny scenes (the doctor getting bitten by a dragon in episode 1) but is silly about once when unexplained logic has the doctor hanging off a cliff, for the cliffhanger. It's the ending of the story though that 7 turns to a more darker figure, for series 25 and 26.
JoeConcerts 10 months ago
Delta and the bannerman, a good story with a mad killer and his army out to kill a greenish humanoid woman with a baby like off the incredibles, this story is 1 or 2 times childish, but other than that it's a safisticated plot, and from a cormedic motorbike chase to a confrontation with Gavroc, the mad killer, is where the doctor is a bit more darker than usuall.
JoeConcerts 10 months ago
About season 24, well, I think (flame shield up) that there are some good stories.Time and the Rani, it can be silly at times but its quiet fun, humorous and builds nicely on Mell's getting used to 7 despite The RANI's attempt to dress up as Mell. Paradice Towers, not the best, and by the fact that the kangs suit more of an item on CBBC. It's quiet childish but has a fun plot. The ending is quiet powerful with Rex proving himself to the kangs by sacraficing his life for the doctor's.
JoeConcerts 10 months ago
@JoeConcerts
The secret to enjoying Season 24 is to not take it seriously.
Dubzoomember 9 months ago
@Dubzoomember Thats exactly true, it is quite entertaining and funny if seen the right way :)
JoeConcerts 9 months ago
Tom Baker was definately the best Doctor but I did quite liked Peter Davisons first series as the Doctor but the only problem is that he did have too many assistants which didn't help. I've always believed that they should NEVER have gotten rid of Adric. They should have got rid of either Tegan or Nyssa. Having one male and one female companion sort of evens itself out a bit. Adric and Tegan would have been good, just like Sarah and Harry were.
flares 11 months ago
@flares Davison was a good actor but was straight-jacketed as a very weak, appeaser of a Doctor. It's mainly Season 20-21 where his Doctor suffers, in Mawdryn Undead faced with a moral dilemma, he runs away. I felt the multi-companions he had might have been better suited to a novels range than the TV show proper. It's Tegan I would have gotten rid of. She was so negative. Sometimes Davison's better stories Earthshock, Enlightenment convince me The 5 Doctors was where Dr Who should have ended.
sadako24 11 months ago
@sadako24 Tegan was a crap character, in billions of ways and I wish she had never come along in the first place as she did why she was not killed off instead of Adric is beyond me in billions of ways it reallyis.
rojblake82 2 months ago
@rojblake82 I loved Caves of Androzani, but I could probably live without it since we'd still have plenty of other Robert Holmes stories. Earthshock's very good and I do like The Visitation. Enlightenment actually used Tegan well, showing what a good writer can do with poor characters, and it's good enough to make me occasionally say the show should have ended on The Five Doctors rather than Logopolis. I've never been a fan of Kinda though, found it rather clunky and could never believe in it.
sadako24 2 months ago
I grew up with the McCoy era, it was only when I started collecting the old shows that I came to realise that they were much, much better. Hartnell to Baker is my favorite section of the series.. I don't really like Davidson to McCoy. I enjoyed Christopher Eccleston and the first couple of Tennant seasons but after that I thought it went VERY downhill and as a loyal fan - finally got bored. Not even watched Matt Smith. Currently watching the 'War Games' just better writting in those days.
TheF126 1 year ago
@TheF126 I agree Tennant's era was bad, but personally I think Matt Smith is an improvement, I'd recommend giving Series 5 a look (The Christmas Special wasn't that good though).
sadako24 1 year ago
To be completely honest, it probably should have ended with Tom Baker's tenure...Because to this very day no one has remotely come close to being as excellent in that role as Tom was/is. I think Tom should have stayed on for another two or three seasons being that the writing was rather good up 'til 1984, then end it. The blame for "Dr Who's" downfall is clearly John Nathan Turner. He pretty much forced Tom Baker to leave when he was still on top of his game. Tom actually went to his funeral!
MetalheadJay78 1 year ago
@MetalheadJay78 I think in billions of ways what, you have said about Doctor Who should reallly have been better ended with Tom Balker's tenure... I also don't think the Doctor has been as heroic or, as excellent as Tom was/is Tom was and still is my favourite Doctor I grew up with Tom Baker and to me he was and still is a bloody excellent Doctor and he should have stayed for another two or three seasons. i agree with you on that, one Tom was pretty much elbowed out of Dr Who and it was a shame
rojblake82 1 year ago
@rojblake82, There is no doubt that Tom Baker was and will always be the absolute best Doctor ever. I think Tom did make the best choice leaving in '81. He just couldn't work under Turner and his production crew who were intentionally out to ruin everything that was good about "Doctor Who". Tom had an ego and was pissed off for plenty of good reasons in that final season. I don't blame him for his frustration in the least. Baker knew "Who" and Turner should have listened to him!
MetalheadJay78 1 year ago
@MetalheadJay78 Would you agree with me in this I don't think Peter Davison was the best choice of actor to play the Doctor and for me Dr Who was nothing like it had been. If Tom Baker had stayed on, he would have I am sure encountered the Cybermen again perhaps the story would not have been Earthshock which I once liked I have to admit I much prefer the black and white Cyberstories Tenth Planet, The Moonbase, Tomb of the Cybermen, Wheel in Space and the Invasion they were much better all round
rojblake82 11 months ago
I think if Doctor Who, had really ended in 1981 with Keeper of Traken it would in some ways have been a good thing but then again I wish Tom Baker could have stayed the Doctor for at least ten years or longer even. The thing was Tom had become bloody awkward on set, with the people he was working with he was atagonistic and rude to other people. When Tom decided to resign from Dr Who, the producer, JNT accepted his resignation cheerfully and let Tom go without asking him to reconsider staying.
rojblake82 1 year ago
There were a few problems with Doctor Who in the 80's, John Nathan Turner being the main one, bad scripts and busy bodies in upper BBC management being the others. From taking over the producer's role JNT decided that he wanted to change everything about Doctor Who that had made it a success since 1970, including getting rid of Tom Baker (he was persuaded to quit basically), changing the opening credits, reworking the theme, what companions he was to have and how many.
OlegKostoglatov 1 year ago
Most of the companions from the 80's ranged from generically bland to just awful. Many people like to blame the actors that played the doctors from the 80's for the show's downfall in quality but it was the bad scripts. There was a lot of potential in the 80's Doctors that was just plain squandered, Peter Davison is a good actor but the persona they created for him was awful, Colin Baker was fired of course, and Sylvester McCoy's run was cut short by messing with the show's time slot.
OlegKostoglatov 1 year ago
@OlegKostoglatov I've listened to the Big Finish audios and it really shows how much better Davison, Colin and McCoy could have been with better scripts. JNT was a control freak and was selective about which writers he'd let on the show, so a lot of good writers got rejected and they were left with scrappings. He also turned the once free-spirited, strong willed Doctor into a puppet- Davison bore the worst of that. But the apathetic BBC leaving him in charge unsupervised so long didn't help.
sadako24 1 year ago
@sadako24 With Peter Davison in particular I really wish that they would have let him play the Doctor the way he played Tristan Farnan on "All Creatures Great and Small". Another big mistake they made was reviving the Master and then milking the character for as many stories as they could , that was something they purposely tried to avoid after 1970-71. Anthony Ainley's Master became almost a foolish parody of Roger Delgado after a short time, especially combined with the awful scripts.
OlegKostoglatov 1 year ago
@OlegKostoglatov I think Davison's best TV stories were Earthshock, Enlightenment and Caves, but listening to audios like Spare Parts & Plague of the Daleks really makes me weep for how much stronger his Doctor could have been on screen. But JNT enforced a neurotic backlash against the late Tom Baker comedy years and cut the show's star down to size. The 80's Master was terribly overused & probably should've been killed off in Castrovalva. His only good stories after were 5 Doctors & Survival.
sadako24 1 year ago
@sadako24 I agree the Master should have been killed off in Castrovalva and killed off permanently he was, bloody wasted after Castrovalva. I also think Peter Davison was a very vulnerable Doctor in comparison to Tom Baker's Doctor,Peter when he fought the Cybermen in Earthshock did not really defeat them like Patrick Troughton always succeeded in doing. In Earthshock Adric is killed off by being blown up on board a spaceship,which is loaded with bombs and set to smash into the earth Adric dies
rojblake82 1 year ago
@OlegKostoglatov I think in billions of ways John Nathan-Turner started off good as a producer in seasons 18 @19, but after that he became absolutely stupid he was a control freak. I also think the Five Doctors should have been his swansong and also a new producer should have come in. If that had happened it, is possible that Peter Davison might have stayed the Doctor longer than three years. It is also possible, that Colin Baker would have stayed, longer too Sylvester Mccoy was utter crap.
rojblake82 1 year ago
Nearly a minute in, tired of reading that marquee...
On the bright side, no 1980s doctors would mean no Peri (great to look at but so whiny!) - on the other hand, it would mean no Ace. I think the 1980s were a rough time for the show but I certainly wouldn't want to erase that period of the show from history!
scopeeyevideo 1 year ago
john nathan turner and certain people in the BBC are to blame for doctor who being on the wonk in the eighties. there were too many people working to get the show canceled and john nathan turner was coming up with horrible ideas for doctor who and getting very bad script writers on staff. If i had been producer of the show back then i would have sought out private funding for the programme plus i would have got better script writers. i would not have cast colin baker for doctor who at all.
doctorw2 1 year ago
If it ended then, we would have never blessed with the better Doctor Colin Baker.
TheGenocideKing 1 year ago
Then in 1990, FOX would broadcast the Doctor Who TV movie starring Paul McGann as the Fifth Doctor and with Eric Roberts as the Master and with Tom Baker as the Fourth Doctor. The Doctor lands in December 30, 1993 and was got shot by gunmen.
MasterAccount 1 year ago
Great History That told me Alot :]
Doctorwho757 1 year ago
I think Who was still basically OK until after Davison left. He may have been to vulnerable but at least there were no bombs that turned people into trees, pantomimesque mortuaries, scientists needing lifts home from Lakertya, robots that called Richard Briers 'Daddy, intergalactic tour buses etc...
By the time Who regained direction in McCoy's second season it was too late...
barttheanorak 2 years ago
I felt those pantomime elements you listed were a temporary thing that didin't necessarily taint the core aspects of the show, and by Season 26 they were pretty much gone from the show. The weakening of the Doctor under Davison though I feel did permanent damage because it ruined a long standing hero, making him no longer someone to root for, and that stain on the main character couldn't ever be removed IMO.
sadako24 2 years ago
This vid gave me a headache, however I followed it to the end cause it was an interesting concept. Despite all the posts being long I read everyone. I am proud to be a fan of a show who's followers can have intelligent discussion over the net without once using the phrases..you r teh gay. pawned, or just breaking out into a complete flame war. To this I say here here Doctor Who fans, Cheers to you. BTW I like were the show went after 81 I like Davis, I think Colin Baker is brilliant.
Plan9wood 2 years ago
@Plan9wood Davidson I mean. and I think that McCoy gets a bad rap. Much of the show at that time suffers from a bad case of the 80's. What I don't like is all the 10th Doctor companion love story BS. Also I don't like the poor, sad, lonely Doctor aspect of all the modern stories. That last ep where he went around crying and catching up with all the characters made me cringe during an otherwise good ep. My only hope is that the new Doctor is a happy, upbeat, in it for the adventure sort od Dr.
Plan9wood 2 years ago
Thank you, someone else said it. nearly half a bloody hour was wasted on the sentimental drivel. So much for the grand finale. I sincerely hope that Dr Who gets better and better now that Davis is gone.
Casablinker 2 years ago
I think the 80's Doctors always had potential and shone when they had a good script- i.e. Enlightenment, Caves, Revelation but I felt that was undone by so many weak scripts that neutered or derailed the character, but JNT seemed to prefer inexperienced writers because he wanted people he could control. I felt the later McCoy era was where it started improving. I liked Eccleston, but I wasn't impressed with Tennant much, it felt like he was trying to overcompensate for having not much character.
sadako24 2 years ago
I disagree strongly that JNT and RTD should never have done Doctor Who. As for JNT's turn as the producer, he did stick around too long, and should have left after Colin's first season giving him a decent amount of time on the show. I do think we had some great stories from this era. Earthshock, Snakedance, Kinda, Caves of Androzani, Revelation of the Daleks, and the very fun Two Doctors were all worth watching. I think that other eras of the show had clunkers just as JNT's era did.
TheDoQtor 2 years ago
I think if JNT had left a season earlier than you suggested (say, on 5 Doctors), the pieces wold still have been in place for Caves, Revelation and 2 Docs to happen, with Eric Saward as script editor who was keen to bring Robert Holmes back. Though hopefuly under a producer that Eric had a better, less bitter, more co-operative and cohesive rapport with, and hopefully without Warriors of the Deep, Twin Dilemma or Season 24 being made (which imho no prior producer would have let get made).
sadako24 2 years ago
Yes, you have a point there! We would have had a better looking outfit worn by Colin, and he would have possibly been in the role until 1988 at least!;-) Twin Dilemma is a good concept actually in some ways. I think it was a horrible idea that this was a way to repopulate the universe with slugs! And the scene at the end where the Doctor holds Azmael is one of the best 6th Doctor moments!
TheDoQtor 2 years ago
"And the scene at the end where the Doctor holds Azmael is one of the best 6th Doctor moments!"
That is a good scene actually, Colin plays it very well.
sadako24 2 years ago
We should just forbid gays from working in DR WHO!! NO JNT OR RTD! They have both ruined Dr Who completely. Wether it's Casting a POP girl singer, a Black & a Gay for Political Correctness, or covering everything in question marks & celery; they are both a distaster to Dr Who!! Gays are obviously confused people & Dr WHO became a very confused show each time a gay took over!! Lets just remember Dr Who as Tomb of Cybermen, Sea Devils, Talons, Daemons etc! Just Pure Classic Sci-Fi!! (Joke!)
therealKINDLE 2 years ago
@therealKINDLE
Yeh, I agree that putting a gay producer with a gay rights agenda in Dr. Who and politically correct undertones is a bad idea , although Dr. Who has ALWAYS had a libertarian/leftist leaning undercurrent, but I think puting gay/black people in it just for the sake of it is not good. Also putting a pop tart in it who just wanted to get a leg up on her acting career also not a good idea. As a result Rose Tyler was not my fave companion.
markfromoakdale 2 years ago
Interesting, part of me agrees with you on this. We would have been spared the squeaky music from Deaf McCulloch, Roger Limb & Paddy Kingsland for a start :)
I think JNT was more suited to light entertainment than Doctor Who, with his populist and (arguably) slightly superficial style of production. However some things improved noticeably under his watch, eg. production design. One problem with the 70s series was the dichotomy between the writers' intentions and what was delivered on screen.
androzani7 2 years ago
I have to disagree with a few of your statements though. I don't think Who had ever been really strong on political content outside the Pertwee era. I also think it's a tad ridiculous to say that the BBC became reactionary in the 80s! I take it from this statement that your politics are liberal. Well, the BBC weren't biased in a party political manner, but like Channel 4 they've had a cultural liberal bias for a long time. In any case I think overtly political Who will only be divisive :)
androzani7 2 years ago
Re: what you said about the changes in the programme's ethos & central character, I think in the right hands it could have been done very well. A fallible Doctor is more interesting than the contemporary Doc (imho), who often comes across as a smug, messianic dullard. If a character can develop unknown abilities for the sake of plot convenience and have guest characters hero-worshipping him at the drop of a hat, it reduces the dramatic tension and also makes said character rather uninteresting.
androzani7 2 years ago
Ultimately anyone's views on this particular subject are purely a matter of opinion. Personally I find the cosy certainties of contemporary Who seriously limiting: it's like a cormfy, familiar pair of slippers. Which is, of course, exactly why some fans of new Who like it! The one season of Who that, more than any other, did seek to challenge viewers - and the Doctor - is my personal favourite. I mean Season Seven of course, and I find the rest of the Pertwee era comparitively cormfy and cosy.
androzani7 2 years ago
One reason why I have been getting into Blake's 7 lately is that Blake offers a compellingly bleak worldview and flawed characters that are both more challenging and interesting than contemporary Who. Perhaps as a children's programme Who does deserve a bit of indulgence and should aim for whiter-than-white morality (though without the preachiness!), and perhaps I've just outgrown its worldview. In which case one should seek out other fiction for rather darker storytelling.... ;)
androzani7 2 years ago
I'm not really a fan of New Who, barring Eccleston's one season. That ending to LOTTL was rubbish. The Doctor had been fallible in Inferno, Genesis of the Daleks and Horror of Fang Rock but never for such contrived reasons that made the Doctor look deliberately inept as in the 80s. It seemed JNT dictated the 5th Doctor should be fallible with no thought to how to make it appear natural or not undermine the Doctor's heroic determination. Viewers have no reason to care if the Doctor isn't trying.
sadako24 2 years ago
The writer of Edge of Darkness said he had much trouble getting political scripts commissioned by the BBC, despite how much politically was going on then. Likewise JNT was very reluctant to allow Vengeance on Varos. My feeling isn't so much political as that Doctor Who should be thoughtful and mean what it has to say. What bugs me about the 80's era is the cheapening hollow insincerity of its homages to past Who. Like Warriors of the Deep and the revisits of the corrupt Gallifrey.
sadako24 2 years ago
"One problem with the 70s series was the dichotomy between the writers' intentions and what was delivered on screen."
I disagree. The Sea Devils has a clip of Sea Devil corpses rising to the water surface by the side of the navy boats. That one image conveys all the writer wanted to say about mankind's blind aggression. Warriors of the Deep spends four episodes trying to tell us the same thing and nothing on screen supports any of it. 70's stories had a coherence that many 80's stories lacked
sadako24 2 years ago
That's a good point. What I mean though is that one thing JNT did get right was making sure that the visuals rarely 'clashed' with the script. Compare the different ways that Destiny of the Daleks and Earthshock are brought to screen: the latter's design and direction are totally in keeping with the mood the script went for, whereas Destiny (which is quite bleak on paper) comes across as absurdly camp and retro on screen, with Boney M androids, a nice sunny Skaro and halogen lighting.
androzani7 2 years ago
Destiny of the Daleks to me had a surreal, sedate look suited to the planet of the living dead -including Davros. I'd say it was an optimistic story,with the Dalek/Movellan stalemate ensuring galactic peace. The cheap production suited stories about declining empires. Earthshock was class! Maybe the last time Dr Who was in good shape.TimeFlight for me was the shark jump-the insincere grieving of Adric hinted the show had lost its soul,and Invasion of Time aside, no prior story was so incoherent.
sadako24 2 years ago
Look at the story following the Sea Devils for a classic example: on paper The Mutants is a serious postcolonial story, but on screen it takes kitsch to new levels! In JNT stories like Four to Doomsday, The Keeper of Traken, Planet of Fire etc. there's the sense of a production team understanding what the writer is getting at and delivering the kind of sets, costumes and direction that suit the story. Even in a cheap looking tale like Logopolis there is a distinct 'harmony' in the visuals.
androzani7 2 years ago
But it was undone by incoherent messes (TimeFlight, Warriors of the Deep, Mindwarp), characters' doing reckless, silly actions out of the blue for inexplicable reasons-Tegan mistakes Mawdryn for the Doctor, Nyssa's goodbye striptease, Ingrid karate kicks the Myrka, 7th Doctor dangles from an icecliff. Such contrived danger&senseless deaths cheapened the drama& tension. Like all thought went to the visuals &none went into scripts. But JNT was a producer who didn't want Robert Holmes on the show
sadako24 2 years ago
In regards to Logopolis, i think that one really worked because you had Peter Grimwade behind the camera, like with Earthshock (Grimwade did fall out with JNT soon after), and also because I think the script lent itself wonderfully to some haunting images, fine acting and also because it had a vaguely 'real-time' presentation to it which I think made it a lot more effective and urgent, almost as if it was really happening, and the scenes of the banalities of Earth really compliment that, I feel.
sadako24 2 years ago
Perhaps I've overstated it a little: I still think JNT was completely unsuited to Doctor Who, but I do think that credit should be given where it's due and that JNT did exercise a little more thought as to how a story should be delivered on screen than some other producers did. He fatally misunderstood the show in other respects, but I don't think he was the complete disaster some people paint him as. (I don't neccessarily mean you by the way!)
androzani7 2 years ago
JNT definitely stayed too long. Maybe he should have just done Season 18 as a go-between. If he'd left on Five Doctors he'd be remembered for Logopolis, Earthshock, Enlightenment.But Warriors of the Deep was when the show became what it once railed against- cheapening of life, unquestioning ignorance, reckless& cruel stupidity, and a once self-willed, free-spirited hero reduced to being Eric Saward's voodoo doll.The Doctor becomes such a passive appeaser its like why did he ever leave Gallifrey?
sadako24 2 years ago
Probably best that this never happened as we'd also have lost Earthshock, Caves of Androzani, Revelation of the Daleks, Curse of Fenric and all the other good stories form the 1980s. Great music though!
stephenrgow 2 years ago
infact, it was the new timeslot, a younger ( better looking) doctor and the introduction of regular guest stars that reintroduced me to the series ( i stopped watching around 1978 as i felt the show looked cheap, tacky and too blakes 7!!!) the show was killed when colin baker wore that awful outfit and then the guest stars became more often comedians and the show became cheap pantomine.
jackscal1 2 years ago
Warriors of the Deep, Twin Dilemma or Time & The Rani happened, get over it!
NH
SonofaReaperMan 2 years ago 4
Gotta love you hilariously sad JNT apologists!
sadako24 2 years ago
How annoying to read an article in this format... argh!
gotta sit around and wait for for the next word to come up.
Couldnt you have posted this somewhere else? It's not a bloody video! It's an article!
hcvang 2 years ago 6
Christopher Eccleston as 5???? Man that's weird. But whoever said that he couldn't be 5 it's right, I mean that's like 25 years in that time someone had to try to revive the show, a pilot a movie or something, like in our universe there was a Doctor between series
Makiruz 3 years ago
Season 18 had dismal ratings for Baker and should have alerted the BBC that there were major problems.
DrWho's consistently highest ratings occurred during the 18 serials that paired Elisabeth Sladen with Pertwee/Baker; those 18 serials produced an incredible 37 HRE's (Hi-Rated Episodes of 10 million or more viewers).
In 43 serials over 4 years, the new Series has only managed 4 HRE's.
The is much to be learned from those 18 serials, IF the new producers would look into them!
glnelson1956 3 years ago
I totally agree with glnelson1956 regarding the Sladen/Pertwee/Baker eras. Unfortunately it appears as though the "new" Who producers only care about special effects and sappy romantic encounters. What's missing today is that rare chemistry that existed between Baker and Sladen and well written stories that highlighted that chemistry along with great acting. I don't believe you can bring those days back, so hopefully all the stories will soon be available on DVD at some point!
tomandlisAREwho 2 years ago
Lots of points for originality and weirdness. :)
Very well done. It appears that many of those commenting don't understand the "alternative history" being mused upon here.
I myself don't understand what significance there would have been in being part of a Saturday night lineup, but maybe that's just me.
Cheers :)
admiralnovia 3 years ago
This is a fictional account of what may have been.
Calm it.
DarthWengle 3 years ago
Im a little confused it states this guy got money and casted christopher Eccleston as the 5th doctor.. how is that possible Peter Davidson was the 5th???? at that was long before 2005? other wise this was very informative.. thanx
projectdarkgrey 3 years ago
It isn't true you know.
Basically this is fictional account of what might have happened if the series had been cancelled when Tom Baker was still the Doctor, and had the series then managed to avoid going down the pan in the mid to late 80's.
sadako24 3 years ago
Lots of informationm, Most of which I didn't know. Misic got a little old afeter a while. Perhaps you need to do a part 2; beacsue we all know it went on for a long while after Tom's death
dbwokc 3 years ago
When the music first started I thought it was tom petty doing "walls".
watch?v=peh5ORqgIPA&feature=related
Sorry about the anime stuff (don't know what it is??) but thats the only copy I could find that sounds like this at the start
LordThree 3 years ago
Nah.
Anyone who watched the extras on Survival learnt that the idea was to let the show go for a couple of years, 4 at the most, then do a proper return once the BBC was up to "american" standards.
If was to end Earlier, I think a good ending would have been to end Colin Baker's trail of a Time Lord season with him regenerating, but not knowing what into. No offence to Sylvester, but that was when the writing was too poor for words...
DarthWengle 3 years ago
As for K-9 there's nothing to say that he wouldn't have been in "Reunion". If they had Cancelled in 81 they may well have still broadcast the Pilot for "K-9 and Company" which may have even been succesful with the absence of Doctor Who itself.
NKHades007 3 years ago
A reaaly intresting Theory. If only they had cancelled in 81. But then how would they have set the transition between Baker and Eccleston? and would the idea of the Time War been created? But I agree that the show would have kept it's dignity had this been the case and we would now have 7 regenerations of the doctor left, not just 3. However we would then only have 1 surviving Old Series Doctor.
NKHades007 3 years ago
As the New Series stands, I don't think the transition between Old and New Who depends on the 80's era at all. Apart from the unofficial Time Crash, and School Reunion wouldn't have K9 in it, and Graeme Harper wouldn't direct any stories. I think the Time War would have fit well with Genesis of the Daleks, and Romana's goodbye in Warrior's Gate. Big Finish wouldn't have any old Doctors though, so they could probably only do spin-offs like Gallifrey and Dalek Empire. Which would be a shame.
sadako24 3 years ago
Well RTD has said that the First act of the Time War was indeed when the Doctor Tried to Avert the Daleks Creation on Skaro in "Genesis" so really the Time War spans the entire lifetime of the Daleks; From their very creation right up to the present situation concerning Davros and Doctor Number 10 (Or Number 6 if take your Theory into Account)etc.
NKHades007 3 years ago
Time war!? Sounds like something from a B sci-fi movie in the 80s where everyone is wearing body fitting sparkly uniforms and the heroes name is Beef Chestbody.
interstitialofficial 3 years ago
I love Doctor Who to death, next to the original star wars movies its the greatest sci fi show ever created...nothing will ever top it!! but I have to agree with you on this one.. lol
projectdarkgrey 3 years ago
This is a ludicrous discussion; drwho was never controlled by one writer. There was never creative control. So, drwho can be for you anything you want. For me it is wonky, weird, iconoclastic' tv for smart kids. For others, it's teevee sci-fi, like any other, to be stocked with the rest, bad and good; fanboi stuff, the nerds who try to thread cannon from every production ever done. For others, it's utterly the opposite of its origins; populist, pretty, conformist, rocknroll sexuality, lcd...
interstitialofficial 3 years ago
What if it ended in 81? Well, that would mean there was a God.
interstitialofficial 3 years ago
Couldn't have said it better myself :)
sadako24 3 years ago
At times it's felt as if there really were good and evil forces battling in the world beyond our notice. I mean, since Tom Baker was dressed up in an outfit taken from Edina Monsoons boudoir, it's been a night mare watching the show trying to be like the rest, a sea of retarded sexuality, fans who want nothing more than to court popularity... and all somehow orchestrated by a cross between Liberace and Vicky Pollard. Just a weird, surreal nightmare.
interstitialofficial 3 years ago
I liked Peter Davidson, when I was watching he seemed like an older brother instead of a father figure, which was nice as the 80's saw a lot of father figures being put out of work and older brothers became role models.
He was also energetic, idealistic and considerate, everything the thatcher era wasnt. He put up with Adric and Teagan for god sake.
And Sylvester McCoy again was'nt bad honest, some great stories.
Its just JNT was the wrong man to run the show.
gobadine 3 years ago
Interesting point about the younger role models reflecting 80's Britain. I'd never seen it that way. Steven Moffat once said Peter was the consistently best actor to play the Doctor, highlighting how Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker went through periods of clearly being bored in the role, which Peter never did. The problem was JNT, but I think Hartnel or Tom Baker would have protested the demeaning of the character in Warriors of the Deep, Twin Dilemma, but Peter and Colin just did as they were told.
sadako24 3 years ago
Nice thoughts about an alternate Doctor Who hiatus, however without those 1980's travesties episodes, chance would be higher to put Doctor Who back on track in the 1990's. Since demand from fans would be higher because they couldn't witness the sixth doctors suit.
I presume they would start Doctor Who again way before 2005, probably with all the travesties of the 1990's (X-files, Star Trek and Red Dwarf).
IMHO an alternate Rowan Atkinson as the 5th Doctor.
: D
AceTrax2007 3 years ago
I'm glad it didn't end in 1981 as we would have missed Peter Davison. What is this song and who is it by?
and also who do you think should be the next Doctor after David Tennant... any ideas?
charliedrakes 3 years ago
The song is called Neon Lights and it's by Kraftwerk (it's from the Man Machine album). I'd say the best candidate for 11th Doctor would be David Thewliss from Harry Potter. He'd have that kind of sharp intense intellect that would make a brilliant Doctor.
sadako24 3 years ago
Thank You and good suggestion. I'm glad it didn't end in 1981 as this when i first started to watch Doctor Who. It was in the news alot that Tom Baker was leaving and i just had to watch Logopolis, as i knew the next actor Peter Davison was and was looking forward to him. I think it was also the Tardis that attracted me to the programme in seeing Tegan getting lost inside it. Have watched ever since bought all the videos and now DVD's. I also liked in 81 the BBC showing the five faces of DW
charliedrakes 3 years ago
Logopolis was a very good story, with some excellent acting. The writer of that one was Christopher Bidmead, who also script edited on Tom's last season. I think if he'd stayed on as script editor for Davison's era and Colin's, then the show would have been much better. Bidmead also wrote the Davison episode Frontios, which gave Davison a chance to be more heroic and commanding. I don't think Eric Saward was a good script editor, though he did write Revelation of the Daleks which was brilliant.
sadako24 3 years ago
My all time favourite storys are The Invasion with Parrick Troughton and many of the Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker Ones. What makes the DVD's is the special fearures you get on them, which are worth buying those for on there own.
charliedrakes 3 years ago
There where plenty of bad stories before 1981. Cheak out the 3rd Doctors last season.
badhead 3 years ago
Season 11, that was the one with Time Warrior, Monsters of Peladon, Death to the Daleks, Invasion of the Dinosaurs and Planet of the Spiders. Not the best stories, but none of them outright ruined or betrayed the series in the way the JNT/Eric Saward phase of the show did.
None of those stories featured the Doctor strangling his companion (in Twin Dilemma), or praising the 'nobility' of cold blooded mass murderers over their victims (in Warriors of the Deep & Attack of the Cybermen).
sadako24 3 years ago
Fair enough. I just think Davidson was a very good Doctor when he was given a good script. Enlightenment, Caves and Kinda spring to mind. I dont like C Baker, and I'm not that keen on McCoy. But I think Davidson was good. Fronitos was a very good story from the 1984 season.
badhead 3 years ago
If doctor who ended in 1981 I would cry!!! Theres no way I would have found out about it or Tom Baker!! My life wouldn't be the same. I would still be the depresses everyone must die person that I was before, my life was miserable. But now I'm happy. LONG LIVE TOM BAKER AND THE DOCTOR!!!!!!!!
CaptianKay 3 years ago
Nice video and an interesting concept, but putting a constantly scrolling ticker-bar over the entire clip is not a good idea. It's very distracting and nausea-inducing when you have to keep following it with your eyes before the text disappears, while trying to look at the images behind it. Why not just buy a microphone and narrate it youself?
luscaslayer 3 years ago
I'm glad it didn't but we would not have to had suffered bad episodes like The Twin Dielemma, The Hapiness Patrol, Time and the Rani, The Kings Deamons, Delta and the bannerman and so
LightningT5 3 years ago
JN-T's era wasn't bad - just too darn Long! He should have been replaced in 1985.
Let's hope RTD doesn't overstay his welcome,either. :)
VideoNitekatt 3 years ago
JN-T didn't want to continue past 1984- he wanted to leave after doing Colin's first story. No one, though, wanted "Doctor Who."
scifiradioguy 3 years ago
It would have been best if he'd left in 1983, and gone out on The Five Doctors, and taken Eric Saward with him. The 1984 season is where it all turned mean spirited and defeatist, it *wasn't* Doctor Who anymore. I wish most of the stories that season hadn't been made.... apart from Caves obviously, but it was only JNT that had kept Robert Holmes off the series for so long, so his replacement would have almost certainly brought him back, so we'd probably still have Caves in some form or another.
sadako24 3 years ago
And to be honest Sadako, RTD is doing the exactly the same thing. The likes of Boucher, Dicks, Gallagher and Bailey stand no chance of ever writing for the series again while Davies is in charge.
FieldMarshal07 3 years ago
RTD isn't he's leaving in 2010 the bbc announced it a few days ago.
CaptianKay 3 years ago
I know I'm going to get into trouble saying this, but I'd be content to see the show end in 1981 if it means eradicating the entire Nathan-Turner era. There were a few gems to be found during the '80's, but the output mostly remained poor and forgettable.
sophomorictrash 3 years ago
Oh I quite agree. I tried in my video to balance the pros and cons of ending it here, but really I do wish it had ended there. So many stories after this were just travesties.
sadako24 3 years ago
How DARE you call them Travesties? I know a few dear friends of mine who are travesites. They have feelings, wants, needs, just like any other human and I think...
What?
Never mind.
scifiradioguy 3 years ago
Thank you. :)
I don't currently have any more planned but I might get inspiration to do another one...
sadako24 3 years ago
Yes, you can do one that asks the question, "What if RTD declined Eccelston's phone call and went with Tennant from the get-go?"
scifiradioguy 3 years ago