The Misleading Francis Collins Religulous Interview

[BattleBits]

Bill Maher is a fuckin boob.

[Awesomeoneofawesome]

2:25 What about John and Matthew? They were eyewitnesses.

[300WhiteKnights]

The conversation was edited as HELL. the fact of the matter is that maher actually largely cut the conversation. It was supposed to be about science vs religion, but collins totally destoryed maher in that debate, so maher switched the topic to the history of the gospel. Maher is a coward and a liar

[lourak]

Excellent presentation! I'd love to see more such objective treatments of popular controversies done by young people here on youtube. Instead - we see an abundance of poorly researched, biased and narrow-minded diatribes against religion coming from our misguided youth.

[fdasherv]

Dr. Francis Collins. Excellent scientist. Poor historian. But is it not every believer's responsibility to be comprehensively aware of the foundation of their belief? Collins' own anecdote regarding his conversion admits the element of a heightened emotional state. I'm glad he doesn't approach genetics with the same hysteria. This is classic cognitive dissonance. Even scientists aren't immune.

[oleh2007]

@fdasherv what about you? did you avoid the dangarous virus?

[TheMidwestAtheist]

@fdasherv "But is it not every believer's responsibility to be comprehensively aware of the foundation of their belief?"

Yeah, I had that same thought. Additionally, when the poster is talking about Collin's "scientific" reasons for believing around 4:00, I must note that those reasons only get one to deism, and not Christianity. So if Collins isn't enough of an expert on the history part to defend his belief, maybe he should be rethinking why he chose Christianity as opposed to, say, Islam.

[fdasherv]

@TheMidwestAtheist "those reasons only get one to deism, and not Christianity"

That's why you'll find most apologists experience disaster when they try to meld the two. When an apologist debater needs to argue the "existence" of a god, he forcibly divorces from his argument any particular god. But we all know which one he means, he means the one who's ridiculous in the face of any and all rationality. No, they avoid that big leap at all costs. Because they're liars and they know it.

[Sage80]

@fdasherv actually, deism is a form of theism. That is all that's required in debating against nontheists. What variety of theism is a completely different topic that warrants a different kind of debate. When you are debating the existence of God, the particulars of said God are irrelevant except that which is necessary in affirming the existence. You misunderstand the argument.

[Sage80]

@TheMidwestAtheist no offense, but you don't impress me as a more capable thinker than Collins.

[1marcelo]

No Sean, you got your etymology wrong. "ScientIST" doesn't have anything to do with "scientISM". It is not like "buddhIST" and "buddhISM". Actually scientism does not even exist. You don't have to believe in science. A scientist discovers new knowledge based on evidence, no faith, no dogma. That's why science works and religion doesn't.

[TheisticThinker]

@1marcelo Lol, fail. Scientism is a real view. It is the view that we only can come to knowledge through Science by use of evidence. It is closely related to Postivism that is a dead Philosophy right now.

[1marcelo]

@TheisticThinker As if you knew how to produce knowledge...

[lourak]

@TheisticThinker Nearly dead - but not quite entirely dead. Falsification, unfortunately, is still the operative principle among most (not all) philosophers of science.

[1marcelo]

I think you misrepresent the interview and its goal. 45 seconds were enough for Maher to establish that a supposed good scientist and christian like Collins has a double standard to evaluate evidence when considering science and religion. The goal of the interview was not to find out about the historicity of the gospel but to show that there is no way that science and religion are compatible.

[seanstrnad]

@1marcelo You're simply wrong that science and religion aren't compatible. What isn't compabitle is scientism and religion, but then again the former is no less of a faith than religion is.

[THEGLASSOFMILK2]

YES. I WAS WONDERING WHY THE HECK IT WAS SO FREAKING CHOPPY WHEN I SAW IT ON ANOTHER VIDEO. I thought it was just a lame edited one by a YouTube user. But no, the "REAL" thing is absolute SHI*! It's COMPLETELY EDITED and CHOPPY.

[goog2k]

I happily accept your 30-65 years. It's your fairy tale. You can make up any number you wish.

However, do you realize how silly that actually sounds? Humans can't keep their stories straight for three weeks, but you claim there weren't distortions, exaggerations and embellishments in three generations?

RIGHT!!!

You and Collins actually have no real "EVIDENCE" whatsoever.

That's the POINT! - both Maher's and mine.

And for me, arguing over the validity of fairy tales is a total waste of time.

[goog2k]

Seems to me YOU have a problem with objective honesty.

First, you can't count, since you said 45 seconds several times when that was not true.

Second, Bill asked Collins a simple question about WHY he believed in Christ. Collins claimed it was because of "overwhelming historical evidence" from accounts in the Gospels. LOL!!!

The Gospels are really mostly inconsistent embellished FAIRY TALES written many decades after Jesus died.

How does THAT make Bill dishonest? That's what Collins claimed..

[theologyfromtheXside]

@goog2k 1) You notice I corrected my assessment...looks like when I make a mistake on video I correct it. Still, 90 seconds out of an hour conversation? Come on...let's not suppose this was a good summary of the entire conversation; 2) You notice the cutaways, edits, etc? He didn't ask him why he believe science and religion are compatible; he didn't ask him why he believes science in fact confirms religion.

[theologyfromtheXside]

@goog2k In fact, there is nothing said in this interview that parallels Collin's book which is in fact subtitled 'A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief'. You would think there might be some parallel b/t Collin's book which attempts to answer that question and Maher's question. There's none and Collin's e-mail states such. If there was, we didn't get it.

In any case, the opposite of this would be like asking a NT historian why evolution is or is not true. Really?

[goog2k]

@theologyfromtheXside LOL!!! That's the point! It was Collins' answer. Bill didn't put words in his mouth.

It was also a planned interview. Collins wasn't ambushed or surprised. He should have expected the question but he gave an ignorant, silly, UNSCIENTIFIC answer. Bill just followed it up.

Unfortunately, there are no reasonable coherent justifications for fairy tales. They are FAIRY TALES!

Jesus was probably a very devoted, sincere, loving & wise human being. Why isn't that enough???

[theologyfromtheXside]

@goog2k You notice I never said that Collins answered the question the way he should have...oral tradition is not Collin's forte. But you can make any one look like an idiot if you talk to them for an hour, have plenty of footage to edit from, and ask someone about something which they're not all that knowledgeable about. This does not appear to be the singular answer which Collins provided. It simply was the one which made him look more idiotic--especially with edits--and it fit Maher's bill.

[theologyfromtheXside]

@goog2k My forte is NT history & specifically Oral Tradition in 1st Century. And though I'm probably not eloquent enough to sit down & argue evolutionary biology sufficiently with Dembski, I can say based on readings & research that evolutionary biology is a scientific fact. Notice that Maher never even provided the footage following up his mockery of the virgin birth. How would we ever know if Collin's provided a solid rebuttal? If it was more embarrassing, surely he would've included it

[goog2k]

@theologyfromtheXside Sorry, haven't learned how to prove a negative yet.

I'm sure Collins is an excellent biologist - obviously. And I'm sure he's an evolutionist too. LOL!!!

That's not the point! JEEZ, who's not, with even has a sliver of scientific education?

The problem is that Collins said he believed in Christ because of "overwhelming historical evidence"?

That's neither scientific nor factual. It's a ridiculous "unscientific" statement. That's why Bill put it in his movie.

Oops!!!

[theologyfromtheXside]

@goog2k No, but you seem to presuming that this segment actually represented the bulk of the conversation when, by Collin's own statements (which we have nothing by Maher to counter) was definitely NOT the bulk of the conversation. Maher makes it out that this was Collin's ONLY reason for belief in Christianity--which, again, if you read his book you will find this is not even in there. The conversation "turned" to this and Collins made a statement. Collins is not a NT historian.

[goog2k]

@theologyfromtheXside Sorry, can't assume facts not in evidence. Have you got any EVIDENCE?

I like Maher and frankly, I trust his integrity. I don't believe he would intentionally distort or misrepresent Collins.

I don't doubt Collins is what you say, but he's ALSO what Bill showed in the movie - another deluded American - even a scientist, who believes in superstition because it's in the "Bible" -- which is NOT a book of historical evidence. The Bible is a book of 2,000 year old FAIRY TALES

[theologyfromtheXside]

@goog2k You keep saying FAIRY TALES, which goes to show your own misunderstanding of the nature of the text. Even the most liberal non-Christian biblical historians would never designate it as such. And if you know Collin's story, you'll know that he doesn't subscribe to Christianity b/c it's what the Bible says. Read his book.

Also, did you watch the Bauckham video? I'd highly recommend it given he's one of the leading NT historians today and addresses the issue of eyewitness testimony well

[goog2k]

@theologyfromtheXside LOL!

Please, let's not get off the subject. I really don't care what Collins said in his book. And frankly, I don't care what you think your so-called "Biblical" scholars think about the New Testament.

I haven't denied the life of Jesus. I've already acknowledged he was probably a very loving, wise man.

However, most of the things written about him were written 70-100 years AFTER he died.

Have you ever played "Telephone?"

Collins simply said what he said.

FAIRY TALES!

[theologyfromtheXside]

@goog2k You're showing your ignorance of history. "Most of what was written about him was 70-100 years after he died?" Well, most scholars place the earliest Gospel at around 65...so, at the lower end about 30 years. At the highest end with John, you have--at best--70 years. Don't know where you're grabbing that extra 30 years from. Also, what have you read on oral tradition? Do you understand oral cultures vs. literate cultures? It's an understatement to say phone analogy is anachronistic

[theologyfromtheXside]

@theologyfromtheXside How about Maher put in a section of their discourse on science OR if he's insistent upon putting something in their about the NT eyewitness tradition he interview a NT historian, not a biologist. I'm pretty sure Richard Bauckham who wrote a book interestingly titled "Jesus and the Eyewitnesses" would have been able to give him a more informed answer on the topic of eyewitnesses (fyi, if you want to see Bauckham's argument go to my channel page. I'll put it up!). Take care!!

[adrenacrumb]

I didn't even think Religilous was a particularly good film because he got all the information from Zeitgeist and didn't bother checking it and it isn't even true. I didnt see you give any info refuting it all you did was say he should have asked certain Christian scholars. The fact still stands the majority of NT scholars believe they don't think it was based on eyewitness testimony and we have no idea where it really came from.

[adrenacrumb]

There's your thumbs down.

[adrenacrumb]

Also for some reason you completely miss the fact that Collins is the one who brings it up in the first place. Did you expect him to not get corrected? If you make a claim you better have the info to back it up.

[theologyfromtheXside]

@adrenacrumb You miss the fact that I did have the info to back it up. And one, I did mention that Collins didn't do the best job he could have on answering that question; and two, you can also see the extremely bad editing. He pulled the most ridiculous sounding 90 second clip out of an hour conversation? Where's the discussion on science? Furthermore, he never shows Collins' reply about "the virgin birth." It cuts off right after Bill Mahers comment about it, looking like Collins got shut down

[theologyfromtheXside]

@adrenacrumb (contd), when in fact there's no reason to suppose Collins did. Again, I ask, where is the rest of the hour dialogue and where is the discussion about science and God? Have you read Collin's book? It's interesting that this is the only clip to get into Maher's video when, in fact, it doesn't even make it into the book. As Collins said though, I guess no one would suggest this was a real pursuit towards truth. Talking about mining...

[adrenacrumb]

@theologyfromtheXside Did you get all of what you said in this video from Tektoniks . org or do you just have scary similar thinking to JP Holding?

[theologyfromtheXside]

@adrenacrumb What similar thinking? This is not opinion. This is a fact & the documentation is there to show it (also, if you watched the videos you see my sources were cited and they were NOT tektonics). My guess is you'd be all about some of the sketchy stuff w/ the Dawkins/Stein interview...but for your atheist boy somehow the injustice has been done simply by exposing it. Thumbs down for anything Christian I guess. But as one of my atheist friends said "We don't claim Maher on our side"

[adrenacrumb]

@theologyfromtheXside Uhm I didn't vote this or any of your other videos down but for that insinuation I will. When I saw this video it had 7 likes and 3 dislikes, I'll give it a minute and it will have 4. Congrats.

tektonics . org/religuguff . html

He gives the same argument you do pretty much word for word and points out every example you do in the same order.

[adrenacrumb]

Sorry but if you are going with majority scholar opinion none of the gospels were written by the tradional authorship and none of it is eyewitness testimony.

[cguevara12]

了不起的工作

[tlaniganschmidt]

Without critiques of Christianity from non Christians,Christians tend to become overbearing zealots.Christianity idealizes its first 3 centuries,when it really didn't have much political-power.Once Christianity was empowered through the mechanisms of government,such people as St.Augustine very entusiasticly got the powers of the government to persecute dissident Christians.As a gay-Christian i find my fellow Christians very eager to judge & persecute me & my friends.

[theologyfromtheXside]

@tlaniganschmidt I appreciate your input. And I completely agree. The simple fact is the Church needs to be more aware of its own history & learn from it, even by its critics. But Bill Maher's "critique" of Christianity is hardly one to learn from. He deals w/ extremist religious groups & states that the only rational response for someone to make is "doubt", thus implying that even moderates or liberal Christians are irrational. I have respect for critics. But Maher not fall w/in the same group

[tlaniganschmidt]

@theologyfromtheXside ...TRUE,People don't need Religion to be stupid or bigoted. but it sure can serve as a quick route to hate.I'm an old man,& grew up in a very cozy Catholic world,where we never locked our doors & the Jesus in the outdoor manger was left outside for weeks & never bothered. But there was no place for me there as a Gay-Person .People will call gay people enemies of the family & yet those are the very families that don't want us.

God's Love is all embracing anyway