Information ALWAYS has a physical basis. Look for it in paper, brains etc. This was the one thing Landauer got right. Any example you give will have a substrate for the information. So there is no problem with 'materialism'. If I lost the key to the encoded files but you didn't, is the information lost? This shows that it is not 'out there' but always associated with some physical object - you or me.
Information is only useful to an organism which because of evolution is more complex in its neurology and is able to interpret, use and create information. Further, because of entropy, energy tends to dissipate to the lowest level state which means that complexity such as intelligent people are always going to be struggling against the majority of morons that tend toward less complexity and therefore less intelligence because they're going along with the entropy of the universe.
joesub007: those text comments dont allow to really discuss your arguments, but your argument using enthropy is completely bogus. it only applies to closed systems. i eat, so i may think. if someone stops eating, he will stop thinking some time later. sorry, but all you say about enthropy only applies to closed systems. so, if you pull the plug on your computer, expect it to freeze down. all further conclusions would be fallacious.
kurtilein3, very informative and thoughtful through out.
I still struggle with what this "information" is. I am also a materialist as you are, but you said that information is immaterial. If information is immaterial, are we still materialists?
if you answer ``yes´´ and then ``i dont know´´, well... thats it. or what are ideas made of? information theory and memetics solve all those riddles that constantly confuse the minds of materialists ^^
you should watch a daniel dennett-clip on the subject, you will like it: watch?v=KzGjEkp772s
well, only one planet out of perhaps 10 million planets supports life. so... i wouldnt accept that as a general rule.
and you dont treat information/ideas as if they were material anyway. you accept and use the fact that information can be copied and destroyed without violating the law that energy/matter can neither be created nor destroyed.
i could also write it on a piece of plastic, it wouldnt make a difference ^^
the paper isnt destroyed when i burn it. not the atoms. but the information on the paper, together with the information on the harddrive, would be gone. the context clearly isnt the paper, its the information on the paper, interpreted as coded language. which adds another layer of context...
To get less vague about what 'information' is, see the link on my youtube web page that leads to a paper on how information evolves.
tomdschneider 4 years ago
Information ALWAYS has a physical basis. Look for it in paper, brains etc. This was the one thing Landauer got right. Any example you give will have a substrate for the information. So there is no problem with 'materialism'. If I lost the key to the encoded files but you didn't, is the information lost? This shows that it is not 'out there' but always associated with some physical object - you or me.
tomdschneider 4 years ago
Wouldnt the song be remembered by whoever listened to it b4 it was deleted it ?
kingbarneyoflondon 4 years ago
probarbly, but some people vaguely remembering the song doesnt make it possible to restore it in mp3-quality.
kurtilein3 4 years ago
Information is only useful to an organism which because of evolution is more complex in its neurology and is able to interpret, use and create information. Further, because of entropy, energy tends to dissipate to the lowest level state which means that complexity such as intelligent people are always going to be struggling against the majority of morons that tend toward less complexity and therefore less intelligence because they're going along with the entropy of the universe.
joesub007 4 years ago
joesub007: those text comments dont allow to really discuss your arguments, but your argument using enthropy is completely bogus. it only applies to closed systems. i eat, so i may think. if someone stops eating, he will stop thinking some time later. sorry, but all you say about enthropy only applies to closed systems. so, if you pull the plug on your computer, expect it to freeze down. all further conclusions would be fallacious.
kurtilein3 4 years ago
No, the form dS >= dQ/T can be applied
to any systems. See my web site, the edmm
paper.
tomdschneider 4 years ago
I absolutely love Dennett. I've watched that video before.
Information plagues my mind! How ironic is that? haha
ContraWagner 4 years ago
kurtilein3, very informative and thoughtful through out.
I still struggle with what this "information" is. I am also a materialist as you are, but you said that information is immaterial. If information is immaterial, are we still materialists?
ContraWagner 4 years ago
do words exist? what are they made of?
if you answer ``yes´´ and then ``i dont know´´, well... thats it. or what are ideas made of? information theory and memetics solve all those riddles that constantly confuse the minds of materialists ^^
you should watch a daniel dennett-clip on the subject, you will like it: watch?v=KzGjEkp772s
kurtilein3 4 years ago
well, only one planet out of perhaps 10 million planets supports life. so... i wouldnt accept that as a general rule.
and you dont treat information/ideas as if they were material anyway. you accept and use the fact that information can be copied and destroyed without violating the law that energy/matter can neither be created nor destroyed.
kurtilein3 4 years ago
The context is the paper which is physical
Magusim 4 years ago
i could also write it on a piece of plastic, it wouldnt make a difference ^^
the paper isnt destroyed when i burn it. not the atoms. but the information on the paper, together with the information on the harddrive, would be gone. the context clearly isnt the paper, its the information on the paper, interpreted as coded language. which adds another layer of context...
kurtilein3 4 years ago
Interesting thoughts.
Thank you for sharing them.
DeletedDelusion 4 years ago