Pt 3 Unquestionably Powerful Archaeology in Favor of the Book of Mormon

[StorminMormin91]

Right, it appears in that edition, which still wasn't in the KJV of his day!

So how do you explain that? How could he have gotten that right?

[truthferrret]

"Right, it appears in that edition, which still wasn't in the KJV of his? day!"

Coverdales Bible is not just another edition but a much earlier bible that used different source material to that favoured by the KJB scribes.

The phrases "ships of Tarshish" and "ships of the sea" are just alternative translations of the original. They effectively mean the same thing!

The former is simply a colloquialism.

If he had known what he was doing, he wouldn't have used both.

[truthferrret]

"How could he have gotten that right?"

He simply read Coverdales Bible or John Wesleys Explanatory notes on Isaiah 2:16

Any more questions?

[StorminMormin91]

He wouldn't have been reading the Coverdale, but the KJV, like many in his time would have.

Also, are the Dead sea scrolls discredited when its obvious that they "plagirized" from the Bible? Of course not, for it was deliberate. It's very well that as Joseph translated, he saw things that were explained in near similar and fitting fashion in the Bible, and inserted such in there. It all depends on the method of translation.

[truthferrret]

Anyway what about the other source I provided? - John Wesleys Explanatory notes on Isaiah 2:16

Don't forget there was a strong Methodist community in that area.

In fact JS's father-in-law, Isaac Hale was a Methodist and probably had a copy.

JS just read that?

[truthferrret]

"...are the Dead sea scrolls discredited when its obvious that they "plagirized" from the Bible?

WOW; what a strange statement! Do you even know what PLAGIARISM means?

plagiarise:  'to use another person's idea or a part of their work and pretend that it is your own.'

Did the scribes who produced the Scrolls pretend it was all their own work?

Of course not!

[StorminMormin91]

I put qoutations around it because I didn't mean it in the strictest sense! They did it deliberately when it served the purposes of the text, and Joseph may have very well done also when it reflected what the text was conveying.

You continue to drag on about him copying from the Bible, but have yet to refute the myriad of Hebraisms in the text that he would have no knowledge of at the time. How telling.

[truthferrret]

".....I didn't mean it in the strictest sense!

What on earth does that mean?

Plagiarism only means one thing.

It's really totally specific

Why don't you just use the correct word?

'So either you didn't say what you meant,

Or you didn't mean what you said.'

Did you like that little Hebraism I slipped in there (chiasmus)?

I'm not a Hebrew scholar either, it's just an intrinsic part of the English Language!

People use it all the time, almost always without without realising it.

[StorminMormin91]

You know, if you would just actually read the Book of Mormon with an open and sincere heart, and actually ponder and pray about it, I think you would come to know, as BYP and I have, of the veracity of that text.

There is nothing in the world that could cause me to deny that I KNOW the Book of Mormon is the word of God. That knowledge is always there for you to acquire.

[truthferrret]

No91: You need to be more careful with the chronology of all these excerpts from her book that you so casually lump together.

To reinstate the proper timeline let me quote Elder B.H.Roberts:

"From his mother's testimony it is apparent that Joseph was known by his own family as quite a storyteller. And the significance of this evening storytelling is that Joseph was doing all this before he had supposedly received the gold plates from the angel Moroni"

[truthferrret]

Based on this evidence, Roberts draws the following conclusion:

"These evening recitals could come from no other source than the vivid, constructive imagination of Joseph Smith, a remarkable power which attended him through all his life. It was as strong and varied as Shakespeare's and no more to be accounted for than the English Bard's"

[StorminMormin91]

I take that back. I found the quote. But did B.H. Roberts know JS personally like his mother did? No, it is no more than B.H.'s opinion, as wrong of an opinion it was.

[truthferrret]

No91 said: "No, it is no more than B.H.'s opinion, as wrong of an opinion it was"

So now, in order to maintain your failed argument you find it necessary to try and discredit one of Mormonisms most valued and honest Patriarchs who spent a lifetime diligently researching all aspects of Mormon history.

I think we can safely assume that Roberts was in a position to KNOW a great deal more about Mormon history than anyone your ever likely to meet.

[truthferrret]

You see, your first reaction was to say: "B.H. Roberts would never have said such a thing."

But of course you then checked and found out I was right.

Doesn't that tell you something?

Still think you KNOW how strong his faith was towards the end?

[StorminMormin91]

The truth is, he would often play devils advocate to help strengthen the Church. One need only look at his last testimony and works to see that he was a faithful member of the Church, and while he may have questioned at times, he surely didn't have any problem of faith going into the next life.

[truthferrret]

"..he surely didn't have any problem of faith going? into the next life."

You have NO idea what his personal feelings were!

Don't forget he also wrote extensively about the influence of Ethan Smith's book on the BOM themes.

[StorminMormin91]

If you would just read his last testimony and talks, you would see what his personal feelings were! That's all we have to go by, not what you or I merely think.

And the whole Ethan Smith thing has been debunked. There are more unparallels than there are parallels. And why would Joseph be so stupid as to refer to view of the hebrews in the times and seasons if indeed he copied it? Why not copy it word for word as far as the specific things in there? But he didn't, though it would've been easier

[truthferrret]

Also just by chance, Oliver Cowdery was a member of Ethan Smith`s congregation, the very same Ethan Smith who wrote "A View of The Hebrews". As you know, this book outlines many significant parallels which also show up in the BOM. We seem to have a surfeit of likely sources, books by Spaulding, Ethan Smith, Hoffmann and the suggestions that are to be found in the 'common knowledge' of accepted American antiquities of the times.

JS was surrounded by these ideas.

[StorminMormin91]

Spaulding has been totally debunked, I already said that there are far too many unparallels and things that, if Joseph truly were copying VoH, he would have used, but yet he didn't, in variance to what was accepted at the time.

[StorminMormin91]

The fact that there are far too many "unparallels" and that Jospeh would even refer to it shows the unlikeliness of his using that text.

It doesn't matter what one specific person thinks. Again, truth is not determined by one person or popular vote.

[StorminMormin91]

This was after the visitation of Moroni, but before the plates were given. He had recieved the knowledge of the peoples through a vision.

Of course, if you are already skeptical of that vision and of moroni (though that still wouldn't account for the reality of the plates), then I guess it won't matter to you.

[truthferrret]

"...that still wouldn't account for the reality of the plates"

'Reality'

Who PHYSICALLY saw the plates?

Not the three witnesses!

Why did JS even have the plates?

He certainly never used them for translation!

[StorminMormin91]

They felt and saw the plates.

they were about 60 lbs, and all who saw them gave physical descriptions of them.

[truthferrret]

Explain why the three witnesses never physically saw the plates. Even his wife never saw the plates.

Explain why he didn't need to use the plates for translation.

Wasn't that why they were given to him?

[StorminMormin91]

Actually, they did.

"In regards to my testimony to the visitation of the angel, who declared to us three witnesses that the Book of Mormon is true, I have this to say: Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time."

[StorminMormin91]

David Whitmer, one of the wtinesses, goes on:

And to leave absolutely no doubt about the nature of the manifestation Whitmer explained, "I was not under any hallucination . . . . I saw with these eyes."

Martin's words were: "Tis enough; mine eyes have beheld". Another eyewitness, named Alma Jensen, saw Martin Harris point to his physical eyes while testifying that he had seen both the angel and the plates.

[StorminMormin91]

Surely a vital part of the plates was to give something for the witnesses to testify of, and the things that accompanied the plates surely helped in translation.

[truthferrret]

Surely a vital part of the plates was to give something for someone to translate?

[StorminMormin91]

Lucy Mack Smith simply said in her autobiography that her son told the family about information connected with the angel and the Book of Mormon plates (see Anderson, ed., Lucy's Book, 345). Lucy told the same information to Wandle Mace about seven years prior to producing her 1845 autobiography and clarified that this information was connected with the Book of Mormon "Nephites" and was shown to her son by vision.

[StorminMormin91]

Joseph commenced telling us the great and glorious things which God had manifested to him...he proceeded to relate further particulars concerning the work which he was appointed to do...From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening, for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same...During...evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals...

[StorminMormin91]

There is the actual quote in context. Clearly speaking about what he told them of the Nephite people, since this had been after and in connection with the visitation of the angel Moroni.

[StorminMormin91]

If he was so smart and crafty, why would be so stupid as to try and spread something that barely no one accepted in his day and still many don't accept now?

Why die for something that was a clear lie and only brought him and his family pain, misery, and death, and never any sort of gain?

That's just bad logic, my friend.

[truthferrret]

Put simply my friend, he didn't plan on dying!

They never do...

[truthferrret]

No Professor, my point was that if you are looking for archaeological evidence to support the BofM story, you must look in the Americas.

You need to ask yourself why none has ever been found there.

On your point of 'patristic names', all I need do is ask you the name of Joseph Smith's father?

That's right, Joseph Smith.

Common practice back in JS's time, as now.

Little wonder he includes this in his book!

Another mystery solved!

[StorminMormin91]

Ah, just like he somehow included a multitude of hebraisms and words that have applicable meaning hebrew?

Because you know, that JS was a scholar in his day on the farm! LOL

Seriously, which is it? A brilliant and cunning mastermind? Or an illiterate, degenerate farmboy? You can't have both, buddy.

Archaeology for the Bible isn't exactly exact in that respect either. There are still quite a few places in the text that haven't been found.

[truthferrret]

Anyone who plagiarises the Bible and apes Biblical narrative style will naturally include a multitude of Hebraisms

I don't consider JS to be an illiterate farmboy, far from it! Don't make the mistake of confusing lack of formal education with lack of intelligence

His mother was a well educated and articulate woman who took on the education of her family, she describes how JS used to entertain family and friends from a very young age with just such stories that he later included in his BOM

[StorminMormin91]

Sorry, but Joseph would have had no knowledge of hebrew linguistic structure in the Bible, and there is plenty of material in the Book of Mormon that could not have conceivably been taken from the Bible. The chapters on war, for example, are extensive, coherent and consistent with what was known about warfare. Could Joseph ahve known that?

Sorry, there is no way that Joseph, even if he was able to be a story teller, was a novelist. He could barely write a word in proper english. No theologian.

[truthferrret]

"Sorry, there is no way that Joseph, even if he was able to be a story teller, was a novelist. He could barely write a word in proper english"

That's a curiously ill-informed reply.

Don't you know JS used scribes?

Like many 'novelists', he just dictated his tale.

No need to worry about spelling or punctuation etc...

He just needed to do what he did best - talk!

[StorminMormin91]

You can't ramble off a record perfectly consistent with hebrew linguistics, 522 pages in length,54 chapters dealing with wars, 21 historical chapters, 55 chapters on visions and prophecies, 71 chapters on doctrine and exhortation,and 21 chapters on the ministry of Jesus Christ, all in 60 working days while suffering intense persecution and problems. I'd like to see you pull a feat like that.

[truthferrret]

Mae West used to say:

"I'd rather be looked over than overlooked."

Based on this quote and assuming she had no knowledge of the hebrew linguistic structure in the Bible, if we follow your logic, we are bound to deduce that Mae West also must have had a similar celestial conduit to Moroni.

How else could her use of Chiasmus be explained?

[StorminMormin91]

Oh, please, the chiasmus in the Hebrew poetical structure is much more expansive and deliberate. It still wouldn't answer about the if-and clauses, the akward way it reads because of those very clauses that are found in hebrew, cognitive accusitive, etc.

And Joseph Smith was not some poet farmboy.

[truthferrret]

"And Joseph Smith was not some poet farmboy"

And you know this how?

Once again you're confusing education with intelligence.

Your whole argument seems to rely on assuming that JS was both STUPID and UNEDUCATED.

[StorminMormin91]

I never said he was stupid, or completely uneducated.

He had a third grade education level, hardly enough to write properly or know the ins and outs of book writing. Each chapter has a different voice and theme, and is chronologically sound even when the text fast forwards and then goes back such as in Words of Mormon.

Again, he had no knowledge of the Hebrew language at the time.

You still can't seem to show how he could have gotten that right.

[truthferrret]

Why is it so difficult for you to accept the fact that JS was a very talented young man - a prodigy even! After a lifetime studying and writing definitively about Mormon history, Roberts certainly came to that conclusion.

I can see why you need to fall back on the 'poor farmboy' excuse though.

How else could you imply the necessity for Divine assistance?

[StorminMormin91]

Until you can give some actual substantial evidence other than opinion that he had a vast knowledge of hebrew, egyptian, and arabic language and culture, I will continue to dismiss your "prodigy" theory. He was not out to start a religion.

[StorminMormin91]

Oh, and Chiasmus is more than just flipping words. It is A-B-C-D-E-D-C-B-A, etc.

[truthferrret]

Chiasmus has been used in English for many centuries.

Shakespeare used it before the KJB was even written.

It was used in Greek and Latin.

It was also used in Hebrew.

It was used in the Bible.

This does not constitute proof of anything!

[StorminMormin91]

Please, Joseph wouldn't have known how to pick out Chiasmus in the Bible or any other text for that matter, as he had no prior knowledge of Hebrew writing structure.

And don't give me the crap that he just copied it all from the Bible, because the text is written in a much different way and in a simpler fashion.

[truthferrret]

Joseph didn't need to pick out chiasmus in the Bible, as I already said 'Chiasmus has been used in English for many centuries, Shakespeare used it before the KJB was even written'

And you're quite right, JS didn't copy it ALL fron the Bible, just whole chunks of Isaiah - word for word. Translation errors included.

[StorminMormin91]

Again, he wouldn't have even been able to recognize or know what chiasmus was, never mind now how to use it to make it span WHOLE CHAPTERS in the book of mormon.

[StorminMormin91]

We often find differences in Book of Mormon Isaiah texts where modern texts disagree.[3] One verse (2 Nephi 12:16), is not only different but adds a completely new phrase: "And upon all the ships of the sea." This non-King James addition agrees with the Greek (Septuagint) version of the Bible, which had not been translated into English in Joseph Smith's day.

[truthferrret]

How could you get it so wrong?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

We aren't near s smart as you are truthferrett. That's why we can present no evidence, and you can thwart us at each and every single turn without even reading anything, because your native brilliance outshines us all. We are as nothing compared to your close to Almighty greatness of mind, intellect and intelligence. We almost bow before thee.

[truthferrret]

Do I detect a note of sarcasm Prof?

I was just politely making a few obvious points and trying to educate one of your followers.

He didn't seem to realise that Miles Coverdale got there first with the Septuagint translation 300yrs before JS!

Just trying to be helpful.

[truthferrret]

The other rendering appears in Myles Coverdale's 1535 translation of the Bible. Isaiah 2:16 there reads: - " vpon all shippes of the see, and vpon euery thinge yt is glorious and pleasaunt to loke vpon."

One phrase appears in Coverdales translation and the other in the KJV.

Both are correct, but both are NOT needed in the same translation

Putting the third line rather spoils the poetic rhythm

It would never have been written that way.

A Divine translator would have known all this!

[StorminMormin91]

Sorry, but Joseph himself wasn't Deity, so don't expect him to be any more perfect at translating than all of the other men who have translated sacred texts.

[truthferrret]

Your choice from Isaiah 2:16 is serendipitous since it serves to highlight one of the errors I mentioned earlier which is unique to the KJB "..and upon all pleasant pictures"

This phrase is only found in the KJB, so for it to appear also in the BOM proves the charge of plagiarism against JS.

[StorminMormin91]

It is also significant that the chapters of Isaiah actually quoted in the Book of Mormon (chapters 2-14 and 48-54) are those which modern scholars widely agree correspond closely to the original Isaiah collection and therefore would have been the most likely to have existed in Lehi's day. Could Joseph Smith have known this?

[StorminMormin91]

We see the same correlations between the Dead Sea scrolls and Isaiah. They, in fact, unabashedly copied the KJV, except where the DSS texts were substantially different from already known Hebrew manuscripts.

Close examination of the Old Testament reveals many passages in it which are copied nearly word for word including grammatical errors.

There are bound to be errors in translation. Same goes for the Bible.

[StorminMormin91]

Oh, and that "story" that he was telling was the one connected with the visitation of Moroni and the First Vision. Way to wrench it out of the context of the actual text.

[truthferrret]

No, as his mother, Lucy Mack Smith wrote: "Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelings, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them (not a mention of Moroni).

[StorminMormin91]

He didn't need to say Moroni, because it was already known that that was who he was talking about, the people of the Ancient Americas!

Didn't plan on dying? Please, he was having people coming after him even before he became a prophet. He could have easily denied it all and got away, but he testified even to the guards in the jail that he died in of the Gospel he knew to be true, and took comfort from its pages in his last hour!

[omiolo]

what about the city in Belize called

LAMANAI,

how did Joseph Smith get that right?

[omiolo]

The discovery of the Lachish Letters in 1935 of eighteen ostraca (clay tablets with writing in ink) written in an ancient Hebrew script, from the 7th century BC reveal important information concerning the last days of the southern kingdom of Judah.

They were discovered at Lachish (Tell ed-Duweir) among the ruins of an ancient guard room just outside the Lachish city gate.

[omiolo]

Among the finds at Tell ed-Duweir, identified as the city of Lachish, were letters written to and from military commanders in the area, during the reign of Zedekiah, the last king of Judah, ca. 590 b.c.

[awolLDSasap]

1 word, "Dartmouth"

[omiolo]

3 Nephi 9:6

"And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth; "

[Hermetiqa]

You do mental gymnastics to associate language from the new world and the old world.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

I don't do that here though. I am showing the ***HEBREW*** inscriptional evidence, not the Mesoamerican. I said at least 5 times these names go back to the Ancient Near East in the Old World because that is where the BofM originated.

[Hermetiqa]

@TheBackyardProfessor I do not believe that the Book of Mormon is from the Old World.

Interesting videos, nonetheless.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

That is irrelevant what one believes, rather, what does the actual text claim, and test it based on its claims, not what we believe. One always goes to its origin and then test to see if it fits. The BofM fits beautifully from the Old World culture, politics, religion, history, economy, etc.

[truthferrret]

"The BofM fits beautifully from the Old World culture, politics, religion, history, economy, etc."

How can you say that? There is no fit at all!

On all these counts, Mormon historicity is a total mismatch with any Mesoamerican civilisations that existed back then.

Lets talk human sacrifice, weapons technology, transportation systems, animals, grain, etc...

Almost everything you care to compare?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

If you can prove to me that the ***OLD WORLD*** is Mesoamerica, I will eat my hat on camera. The OLD WORLD, means the ANCIENT NEAR EAST. Gads get educated first would you.....