If it were not for my mother who tho herself never questioned anything - never stopped me from questioning allowed me to see the world from a very unique perspective ....
So much so that at my last job - my boss sent me the demotivational poster with the bent spoon and the title: "not everything unique is useful". I have been condemned all of my life for questioning too much and has had a very negative impact on who I am today. So I don't know anymore. I've stopped questioning.
@originaljawz That's a shame. I think questioning is an art. In a way your boss was right, but you have to be able to examine all sorts of things, even apparently absurd ones, to learn. Imo education should teach how to do this well.
@Loreleila thanx for responding :) I intentionally sought out a video like yours today, because I have an overly inquisitive 13 year old nephew who idolizes me to the point where I feel that it's beginning to interfere with his parents' and teachers' teachings. To top it off, he's becoming a depressed kid and comes to me because I have unconventional answers to his unique questions.
I'm beginning to fear that I might harm the kid by teaching him to be different.
@originaljawz You're welcome. Obviously this is only an opinion based on the information you've given me, but how can you teach him to be different when he clearly already is? I agree you need to act with caution, but if he's getting depressed, has unique questions, it seems he needs to learn how to be himself in a way which is helpful to him without making him too obvious to everyone until he's at ease with it. You're well placed to help him, but no one can help him to be 'normal' if he isn't.
@Loreleila The kid caught me off-guard yesterday with a couple of really impulsive statements - which I thought should have been reserved for his parents. He understands that he's different (he's dyslexic, so that puts him apart anyways) but now he's at a stage where he's becoming self-conscious and aware of his fallacies. He said that he likes to be sad. And that if anybody laughs, he thinks it's directed at him. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to take things as they present themselves.
Like George carlin said, it's so that the 800-900 people that run america can remain the elite and make all the decisions about MONEY. Thank John rockefeller and jp Morgan, horace mann and many others from that time period.
The argument you have presented here about education creating elitism and stifling new ideas is entirely based on anecdotes. The experiences you or your son may have had are not enough to make broad assertions. Far more often than not my educators have encouraged questioning, debate, and exploration.
@Aerosteon No, it isn't, but as a psychologist I'm not at liberty to share the thousands of other stories I'm aware of, and there are a multiplicity of studies which bear out what I'm saying, sadly. I'm delighted your experience has been different, but it seems it is you who are doing what you accuse me of and not the other way about. Your experience is just that, one persons story.
I am not doing what I accused you of. Unlike your video I stated my experience as nothing more than my experience. I did not use it as a justification for sweeping assertions on the nature of academia. If you re-read my comment you will see it made no claims that your conclusion was correct or incorrect; I only pointed out a flaw in your presented argument.
Can you tell me more about the studies you have referenced, I want to learn more.
@Aerosteon The trouble is that accusing someone you don't know of anything is not a good way to communicate, and indicates someone who has been taught in a 'this is right and all else is wrong' sort of a way. If you want to learn more you might like to research unschooling and free schools. There are even channels at YouTube on the topic, but there is a great deal of information online if you're truly interested. But that is just a springboard, not the entire answer
PAULO FREIR said it best... "Education either functions as an instrument which is used to facilitate integration of the younger generation into the logic of the present system and bring about conformity or it becomes the practice of freedom, the means by which men and women deal critically and creatively with reality and discover how to participate in the transformation of their world."
I agree with your pov, because something similar has happened to me in school. There was a mock exam before the real thing and one of the questions on the paper was that whether you agreed/disagreed with a person and give reasons why you did so. I made a choice to disagree & gave my reasoning. When the teacher corrected it she said it was fine but she said you can't do that in the real exam because you are expected to agree with person, if you disagree you are likely to get zero marks.
Having said all that, if one realizes that the system is purely to teach and not for you to think beyond it and not to challenge it, until you are actually out of the system. Then of course what happens is that, if you thought of something new, it simply becomes part of the system and the circle repeats itself.
There is no substitute for thinking for oneself... It's too bad that a lot of the process of education forces one into thinking inside a box. You said more or less what's been on my mind since I dropped out from trying to earn a second undergraduate degree but learning nothing new...
I hate smugness. It is the one trait I try and spot asap in myself because it's so nauseating. If smugness were a religion a lot of atheists would be very holy.
People get so lost in the sense of security that they get from their identities, that they don't even notice when they're being elitest; they won't even entertain the idea that they've got prejudices...
'Me? Narrow-minded? I can't be! I'm logical, I'm scientific, I'm an atheist ... therefore everything I think must be fair-minded, unbiased & impartial!'
'Free thinkers' ... lol. Yeah, right. Where exactly?
I think there might be something about you that puts me in an 'offloading' state of mind (as I've done that kind of emotional-spew here before); like a small child crying to its mother about injustices it has seen on the playground...(I hope that's not too weird)... Actually, it probably has more to do with the fact that you 'pushed some buttons' for me & brought to mind certain 'educated' people in YT-land (who will remain unnamed) whose behaviours reveal a lazy & fear-fuelled cliquey-ness.
lol Don't worry, I do it with everybody, always have. Not on purpose, it just kind of happens. But I'm glad if I've pushed buttons. Hope you don't mind.
I always looked at higher learning as improving upon oneself (knowledge & intelligence) not propelling oneself pass others. The way society looks at education reminds me of the movie the wizard of Oz when the all powerful Oz gives the scarecrow a brain via handing him a piece of paper..lol
Give me the simple charm and gnarled hands of my grandfather who tends his garden and family with ease, over my pile of dusty books and lofty notions of self-importance through acquired knowledge.
I love learning, but am aware of its limits.
Perhaps there is also a degree of social engineering taking place in the educational system? A subtle diffusion of corrupting propaganda.
Understood. I think you're probably right, sadly. The engineering is not always wise or helpful. As you say it is subtle, and can be hard to pinpoint.
I love to learn. I will always love to learn. But often to learn one must let go of what is already learned.
I've always been grateful to my friends with graduate degrees that they haven't been snobbish about it. I think I've absorbed some of their enthusiasm for learning because of it.
It seems like some of the great writers and artists who've had no formal education can stand outside of the institutions and serve as a type of court jester. Comedians can be good at that too.
That can be true. But I've also found those who haven't had the sort of structures education imposes foisted upon them can often come up with thoughts which are far more inspirational.
academic elites used to be sent to rome to study prior to the age of reason, tf should note that. I remember dreary days at Uni where some lecturers would simply dictate lecture notes for students to rapidly write down. Most of my uni education was a waste tbh. It's just a certificate, a status symbol, a bargaining chip, etc etc.
If it were not for my mother who tho herself never questioned anything - never stopped me from questioning allowed me to see the world from a very unique perspective ....
So much so that at my last job - my boss sent me the demotivational poster with the bent spoon and the title: "not everything unique is useful". I have been condemned all of my life for questioning too much and has had a very negative impact on who I am today. So I don't know anymore. I've stopped questioning.
originaljawz 1 year ago
@originaljawz That's a shame. I think questioning is an art. In a way your boss was right, but you have to be able to examine all sorts of things, even apparently absurd ones, to learn. Imo education should teach how to do this well.
Loreleila 1 year ago
@Loreleila thanx for responding :) I intentionally sought out a video like yours today, because I have an overly inquisitive 13 year old nephew who idolizes me to the point where I feel that it's beginning to interfere with his parents' and teachers' teachings. To top it off, he's becoming a depressed kid and comes to me because I have unconventional answers to his unique questions.
I'm beginning to fear that I might harm the kid by teaching him to be different.
originaljawz 1 year ago
@originaljawz You're welcome. Obviously this is only an opinion based on the information you've given me, but how can you teach him to be different when he clearly already is? I agree you need to act with caution, but if he's getting depressed, has unique questions, it seems he needs to learn how to be himself in a way which is helpful to him without making him too obvious to everyone until he's at ease with it. You're well placed to help him, but no one can help him to be 'normal' if he isn't.
Loreleila 1 year ago
@Loreleila The kid caught me off-guard yesterday with a couple of really impulsive statements - which I thought should have been reserved for his parents. He understands that he's different (he's dyslexic, so that puts him apart anyways) but now he's at a stage where he's becoming self-conscious and aware of his fallacies. He said that he likes to be sad. And that if anybody laughs, he thinks it's directed at him. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to take things as they present themselves.
originaljawz 1 year ago
Like George carlin said, it's so that the 800-900 people that run america can remain the elite and make all the decisions about MONEY. Thank John rockefeller and jp Morgan, horace mann and many others from that time period.
PRESTOSAURUSREX 1 year ago
The argument you have presented here about education creating elitism and stifling new ideas is entirely based on anecdotes. The experiences you or your son may have had are not enough to make broad assertions. Far more often than not my educators have encouraged questioning, debate, and exploration.
Aerosteon 1 year ago
@Aerosteon No, it isn't, but as a psychologist I'm not at liberty to share the thousands of other stories I'm aware of, and there are a multiplicity of studies which bear out what I'm saying, sadly. I'm delighted your experience has been different, but it seems it is you who are doing what you accuse me of and not the other way about. Your experience is just that, one persons story.
Loreleila 1 year ago
@Loreleila
I am not doing what I accused you of. Unlike your video I stated my experience as nothing more than my experience. I did not use it as a justification for sweeping assertions on the nature of academia. If you re-read my comment you will see it made no claims that your conclusion was correct or incorrect; I only pointed out a flaw in your presented argument.
Can you tell me more about the studies you have referenced, I want to learn more.
Aerosteon 1 year ago
@Aerosteon The trouble is that accusing someone you don't know of anything is not a good way to communicate, and indicates someone who has been taught in a 'this is right and all else is wrong' sort of a way. If you want to learn more you might like to research unschooling and free schools. There are even channels at YouTube on the topic, but there is a great deal of information online if you're truly interested. But that is just a springboard, not the entire answer
Loreleila 1 year ago
PAULO FREIR said it best... "Education either functions as an instrument which is used to facilitate integration of the younger generation into the logic of the present system and bring about conformity or it becomes the practice of freedom, the means by which men and women deal critically and creatively with reality and discover how to participate in the transformation of their world."
VedekDrew 1 year ago
@VedekDrew Excellent quote. You seem to hhave
Loreleila 1 year ago
some great ones. This commenting thing
Loreleila 1 year ago
isn't working for me at all
Loreleila 1 year ago
I agree with your pov, because something similar has happened to me in school. There was a mock exam before the real thing and one of the questions on the paper was that whether you agreed/disagreed with a person and give reasons why you did so. I made a choice to disagree & gave my reasoning. When the teacher corrected it she said it was fine but she said you can't do that in the real exam because you are expected to agree with person, if you disagree you are likely to get zero marks.
imthoughtlessforever 2 years ago
Having said all that, if one realizes that the system is purely to teach and not for you to think beyond it and not to challenge it, until you are actually out of the system. Then of course what happens is that, if you thought of something new, it simply becomes part of the system and the circle repeats itself.
imthoughtlessforever 2 years ago
If you can get someone to near adulthood having never dared to question or disagree I think you've pretty much got them for life doing the same.
Loreleila 2 years ago
I know that very much and when you are working in real life, everyone expects you to work outside of the box.
imthoughtlessforever 2 years ago
That's dreadful.
Loreleila 2 years ago
There it is a perfect video very very good!
LiberateEXinfernus 2 years ago
Thank you.
Loreleila 2 years ago
There is no substitute for thinking for oneself... It's too bad that a lot of the process of education forces one into thinking inside a box. You said more or less what's been on my mind since I dropped out from trying to earn a second undergraduate degree but learning nothing new...
phekwig 2 years ago
Well put. Me, I like lots of different flavours, depending.
Loreleila 2 years ago
I hate smugness. It is the one trait I try and spot asap in myself because it's so nauseating. If smugness were a religion a lot of atheists would be very holy.
Loreleila 2 years ago
*****
Excellent video; attitude, points ... everything.
People get so lost in the sense of security that they get from their identities, that they don't even notice when they're being elitest; they won't even entertain the idea that they've got prejudices...
'Me? Narrow-minded? I can't be! I'm logical, I'm scientific, I'm an atheist ... therefore everything I think must be fair-minded, unbiased & impartial!'
'Free thinkers' ... lol. Yeah, right. Where exactly?
Meh................
TWITfromURANUS 2 years ago
(I knew I shouldn't have started)
TWITfromURANUS 2 years ago
lol I'm glad you did.
Loreleila 2 years ago
I think there might be something about you that puts me in an 'offloading' state of mind (as I've done that kind of emotional-spew here before); like a small child crying to its mother about injustices it has seen on the playground...(I hope that's not too weird)... Actually, it probably has more to do with the fact that you 'pushed some buttons' for me & brought to mind certain 'educated' people in YT-land (who will remain unnamed) whose behaviours reveal a lazy & fear-fuelled cliquey-ness.
TWITfromURANUS 2 years ago
After all, being REALLY educated should dispell elitism ... yes?
TWITfromURANUS 2 years ago
^dispel -- one L
TWITfromURANUS 2 years ago
Mispell dispel? :P
Loreleila 2 years ago
Yes, exactly.
Loreleila 2 years ago
lol Don't worry, I do it with everybody, always have. Not on purpose, it just kind of happens. But I'm glad if I've pushed buttons. Hope you don't mind.
Loreleila 2 years ago
I always looked at higher learning as improving upon oneself (knowledge & intelligence) not propelling oneself pass others. The way society looks at education reminds me of the movie the wizard of Oz when the all powerful Oz gives the scarecrow a brain via handing him a piece of paper..lol
funeralsong34 2 years ago
lol Yes, nicely put. :)
Loreleila 2 years ago
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LittleBookNook 2 years ago
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HealingGaia 2 years ago
Comment removed
HealingGaia 2 years ago
Give me the simple charm and gnarled hands of my grandfather who tends his garden and family with ease, over my pile of dusty books and lofty notions of self-importance through acquired knowledge.
I love learning, but am aware of its limits.
Perhaps there is also a degree of social engineering taking place in the educational system? A subtle diffusion of corrupting propaganda.
beardfreak1969 2 years ago
Understood. I think you're probably right, sadly. The engineering is not always wise or helpful. As you say it is subtle, and can be hard to pinpoint.
I love to learn. I will always love to learn. But often to learn one must let go of what is already learned.
Loreleila 2 years ago
Your video is so sweet to my ears, and the comments as breezes of fresh air;-)
I feel less alone suddenly lol! Merci!
Boucrate 2 years ago
:-)
Loreleila 2 years ago
... My dogs bigger than your dog ...
Mrwrinkleintime 2 years ago
Undoubtedly, since I don't have a dog.
Loreleila 2 years ago
education, what a harsh word. I have observed all 3 of my children grow ...they arrived just fine..if they needed to know a thing- they'd ask.
wolffenhaus 2 years ago
Agreed. The only thing we can give our children in this respect is the joy of discovery.
Loreleila 2 years ago
I've always been grateful to my friends with graduate degrees that they haven't been snobbish about it. I think I've absorbed some of their enthusiasm for learning because of it.
It seems like some of the great writers and artists who've had no formal education can stand outside of the institutions and serve as a type of court jester. Comedians can be good at that too.
Cheers!
Barklord 2 years ago
That can be true. But I've also found those who haven't had the sort of structures education imposes foisted upon them can often come up with thoughts which are far more inspirational.
Loreleila 2 years ago
I definitely agree with what you are saying in this video but is Dawkins really an elitist?
Deathinmusic 2 years ago
I honesty couldn't say. But anyone who deifies him is.
Loreleila 2 years ago
The edgucation system is ment to indoctranate people into a certian way of thinking not show people how to think for themselves.
I had a teacher that would not answer my questions and said this is not a stump the teacher class. I was classified a radical for asking questions.
hellavadeal 2 years ago
Teachers should be glad to be challenged, to need to continue to learn. It's a shame education can so easily become indoctrination..
Loreleila 2 years ago
What do you say to a person with a BA in Media Studies?
Another pint of Stella please.
yeahwotevaman 2 years ago
lol! :S
Loreleila 2 years ago
Enjoyed in shared learning or be limited forever. =)
czarwright 2 years ago
Definitely.
Loreleila 2 years ago
academic elites used to be sent to rome to study prior to the age of reason, tf should note that. I remember dreary days at Uni where some lecturers would simply dictate lecture notes for students to rapidly write down. Most of my uni education was a waste tbh. It's just a certificate, a status symbol, a bargaining chip, etc etc.
gratex 2 years ago
I did get something from it, though only a foundation. The real work began afterwards.
Loreleila 2 years ago
basically someone can still be a total tosspot even if they are highly educated.xx
popebenadict16 2 years ago 3
Absolutely. x
Loreleila 2 years ago
Leila! Thanks for making a video on this!
MetaCraken 2 years ago 2
You're welcome. It seemed to be coming at me from all angles.
Loreleila 2 years ago
like daggers 'n shit.
I may be volunteering at the Manhattan Free Scool quite soon. They're democratic...should be fascinating.
MetaCraken 2 years ago
Then I hope you make some videos on your experiences. :)
Loreleila 2 years ago