even if torture works its still wrong we should be above such tactics because it is barbaric and wrong and these are the concepts we are fighting against so it is not only immoral it is hypocritical
who gives a shit..even if torture doesnt get us any good info, at least those scumbags get got tortured. I say we skin them and rip their finger nails off. then pour vinegar all over them!!
@robbiec2490 It's narrowminded people like you, who should be skinned alive and then bathed in the Dead Sea. Those so-called 'scumbags' of yours. Did you ever get to hear their opinion? Unless you did, you should be silenced (by force).
wait a second...your saying that those who decide to rape, kill, and destroy the lifes of others through terrorism tactics or whatever deserve a chance to justify it!? there is no justification for any of it! and then you go even further to say that i deserve to be skinned alive for the basic belief that murder is wrong, and those who choose to do so shall be punished? wheres the logic in that? Hey everyone lets defend the fuckups and takedown those who have done nothing wrong!
America is supposed to stand for something better. Once we as a nation say that it's okay to torture people, ANY people, then it's over. This will cease to be the America that our grandparents believed in. The day we start accepting the torture of our fellow human beings, we become exactly what the extremists call us: an evil empire. Are you really okay with justifiying their hatred? Or are you just more concerned about who wins American Idol?
haha while were on the subjects on the many truths torture has extract why dont i add we also found out witches actually exist by some simple torture :o
[flipperboy] > why dont i add we also found out witches actually exist by some simple torture
LOL you just reminded me of one of my favorite "Treehouse of Horror" Simpsons episodes: "Easy Bake Coven" --
Salem Constable Wiggum: "Okay so, if you really are innocent then when we push you off this cliff you will fall to a Christian death, but if you are a witch then you'll use your supernatural powers to fly to safety, in which case you'll return here for torture and execution."
@robbiec2490 True, but it's pointless to extract such specific conclusions from a broad spectrum of data. It's obvious that tortue works sometimes and sometimes it does not; what's actually important is the distribution of when it's right and when it's wrong. I don't really know which one occurs more often.... However according to this video, torture doesn't work more often then it does, therefore it is a bad idea.
Now we get to the " Young Turks" a revolutionary show. The talk show on Sirius satellite radio that is OPENLY DISHONEST.
A rare show that combines all of the leftist news that people DON'T care about in one place. We are not afraid to talk about left wing politics and entertainment. If we have to... we will make it up... just to make our side sound good.
The terrorists hate america. If we continue these types of methods of pursuit i.e. torture, wars with the wrong countries, we become the assholes they think we are. We have to pursue our enemies with a sence of love and respect, I know that's a hard statement to take, but we must get to the bottom of why our enemies hate us, only then will they stop being our enemies.
I love how we all have to be "libs" or conservatives. Great. Thats exactly what we need to do. DIvide ourselves in typical ignorant american fashion so we can be on the "winning" team. Right. Why can't we be americans? This red/blue bullshit sure seemed to start with bush....
If Pelosi knew then she should be prosecuted just like Cheney, Bush and anyone else who had part... Fact of the matter is we tortured and obviously Cheney and Bush knew... how else would they have been given the order to torture... get you head out your ass!
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If you think what we did in Gitmo was torture, you don't know what torture is. I only WISH we'd torture these people, but we won't, because we're America; We're the Good Guys. But hey, when Obama empties the terrorists out of there, maybe you can have a few move in at your house.
Well, we've since learned it was actually 183 POURS, not sessions, but your point is well taken.
I'll tell you what they were likely thinking. The same thing a TX sheriff and his 3 deputies were thinking in '83 when they were caught waterboarding suspects to force confessions from them. They were federally prosecuted and jailed. The sheriff did 10 years!
DO you know ANYTHING? do you know where Sirhan Sirhan is? John Hinkley jr? Terry Nichols? well they're still locked up. what are you talking about "empties the terrorist out of there..." most of them haven't been prosecuted to even be considered terrorist, we denied them a chance to defend themselves. And for those who are found guilty will be sent to maximum security prisons just like the other people society has forgotten about. Stop listening to Fox News.
Trust me aledg, (I) was terrified when bush was President, and trust me when I say that 80% of Americans feel the same way! That fucker went off the rails. I am 50 years old and have never seen such a catistrophic failure of an administration. Please accept my apologies, and I know i speak for most Americans. It will take decades to fix bush's cluster fuck! Oh, and I liked Reagan and didn't like Clinton, so I don't stay with my party all of the time.
Let me ask those who support torture a question. When Tim Mcveigh, Jeffrey Dahmer, the unabomber and the BTK killer were arrested, were they tortured to get him to confess? No, althought they were killers just like Khalid Cheikh Muhamed. When murderers and child molesters are arrested in America, are they tortured to get them to confess? No because it's against american values. So, if we don't torture US criminals then why should we torture foreign criminals even if they are terrorists?
Wow, you said a lot here. Have you any idea how terrifying and insulting it is that our friend the USA would deny one of our citizens basic human rights?
We as Americans better listen to this guy. Our reputation around the world is ruined thanks to the last asshole President. I can't even gag out the guys name. Whether it is that Kaled Shake (sp) dude or your run of the mill robber, we treat them the SAME in our justice system, that is what makes us great. Where are you from?
Piggy, you must really love rolling around in the filth with the terrorists. I don't suppose you'll ever get up and act like a man instead of like the bullying cowards they are.
"The CIA has said that the information gained through water boarding helped to thwart over 30 terrorist attacks."
Seeing as how they did it, I have no doubt that's what they said.
"These people decapitate our soldiers"
And? Waterboarding isn't about them it's about us, and the usual "he punched me; I punched him back" excuse no longer flies. Most US people aren't as dumb as you. Thank God.
We do need the moral high ground, because if we dismiss it any another humane pursuit reeks of hypocrisy.
Notice that he is getting all of his information from an FBI agent, when in fact it is the CIA and the military who is in charge of these interrogations.
Also if you do not know what water boarding is, it involves putting a burlap sack over the person's head and pouring water on their face. It simulates drowning, and although it may be very scary and discomforting, it is neither excruciatingly painful nor does it leave permanent damage.
The CIA has said that the information gained through water boarding helped to thwart over 30 terrorist attacks.
Although it may be more desirable to take the moral high ground on this issue, imagine the crap Bush and Cheney would have gotten if they hadn't water boarded, and there actually was a terrorist attack.
Looks like Bush and Cheney were damned if they did and damned if they didn't water board.
Sounds like a Catch-22, which by the way, is a great book.
you are a moron, the FBI did have a huge roll in extracting info from gitmo detainies. You also don't know shit about water boarding, they don't put a burlap sack over someones face and pour water on it, the stuff wet rags down their throats and pour water down their nose. I'm not going to speculate on whether its painful or leaves damage becouse unlike you, i don't just make shit up.
The problem with people like you tyt and obama is that even after the bombing of the SS Cole, the WTC , and the planes going into our twin towers, you dont want to call a spade a spade and protect Americans.. water boarding is torture? torture is wrong? These people decapitate our soldiers , send their children into public places with bombs strapped to their body.. Very few Americans are as sympathetic as you. Thank God.
"you dont want to call a spade a spade and protect Americans.."
Calling torture "enhanced interrogation" is exactly the opposite. And how pray tell does covering a terrorist's face and dousing it in water insure our safety? It doesn't. Typical neo-con thought. Shoot the brown people? It's to protect the country. Invade their lands? Protect the country. Spy on your own citizens? Protect the country.
Ok....the young jerk is correct here.....but why doesn't he bring up the fact that WE STILL TORTURE.....his messiah Obaaaa-ma has not put a stop to anything...(read the signing order....not the sound bite from the "news")
One sided bullshit from the young jerk.....dividing Americans at every oportunity!
Waterboarding was not considered torture by the 3 terrorists who underwent it if it didn't effect them, as you claim. Apparently, it was torture, if in fact, as YOU claim it occurred on 183 occasions. It was 183 pours of water on Muhammad & 83 on Zubaydah. The #s reported were not state dept #s but avg reported by terrorist & red Cross.
Muhammad told the Red Cross he only experienced waterboarding for five days during the first month in custody. This differs with the amount of time he claimed to be "tortured." The Al Qaeda Manual addresses that terrorists may be waterboarded if captured. It instructs them to claim they have been tortured. In detail, it instructs them on the U.S. interrogation methods. Membership in Al Qaeda is voluntary. They know it can happen and they prepare and they lie about torture.
You need to check facts. Waterboarding did work. Mohammad revealed details of a 2003 plan to attack the West Coast with planes. He wasn't waterboarded on 183 occasions. He told the Red Cross: "I was also subjected to 'water-boarding' on five occasions, all of which occurred during the first month."
Also, don't forget we got our torture techniques from a Chinese manual. This Chinese manual was made not to get the truth, but to get the prisoners to say whatever the Chinese wanted them to say.
Look I dont care if it works or not...it s WRONG. Im with Sheperd Smith on that one. We shouldnt torture. But lets not talk about it every damn news cycle. We have a huge loss of jobs, the economy is in shambles and getting worse. We must let this go and move ahead.
Hopefully the GOP gets it and will oust the Neocons and pout real conservatives in power so this doesnt happen again. THis is the work of the neocons...they are nowhere near conservative. But they call themselves conservatve.
All a waste of precious time and energy. And the hypocrisy of the left now all of sudden getting morals and getting all righteous stinks to high heaven. Now all of sudden something is actually wrong in their book, but they have no basis upon which to explain why it is wrong other than some wacky appeals to zeitgeist, amorphous ever-changing western values (isn't that politically incorrect to say -- insulting in fact to the East?), or maybe its based on love love love from the sorry ass 60s
You're wrong, there are morals that all educated philosophers know about that goes beyond your understanding in thinking that morals are subjective and randomly found to suit a political party's agenda.
You ever heard of the golden rule? Look it up and a lot of things would start to make sense as to why people act a certain way towards "immoral" acts.
"All educated philosphers." Was Nietzsche educated? Yes. Was he a philosopher? Yes. Did he teach that there was no good or evil only the will to power? Yes. If you look deep enough into the premise of liberal moral thought its stands on moral relativism, not some absolute principles or morals. Oh and that's nice lip service to the golden rule, but try applying it to the unborn and the left ies will spout profanities and insults and deride you.
You're right about Neitzsche but your assumption that liberal moral thought have to be based on absolute principles or morals in order to achieve validity is a fallacy imo. Even if it changes relative to the time, what exactly is horrible and terrible about it. I know there are good parts to it too. Same with absolute principles
The premise to me seems to be golden rule. We can argue all day about how it ties into the unborn and I will never insult you, some people would and they're asshole
"bullshit torture does work. Now could we have gotten it in another way,maybe."
The same way we got it from the Nazis?
You know, the "old school Axis of Evil"...
You should watch some US prisoner movies.
I dont remember its name, but one pops to mind where a few US air men where captured in Vietnam.They, previously, where trained to give the biggest BS stories when/if they where tortured...which they did.
Hey I got a quesion. WHO GIVES A FUCK? FOr the last 2 weeks all we hear about is torture! That is all you libs can talk about. Out nation is crumbling all around us, we are losing the war, we shouldnt even be there. The dollar is losing value, we are losing jobs, and all you libs talk about is torture!
If we moved on after the holocaust imagine what injustuces would have been hiden. Bush's henchmen and Bush himself need to be found guilty and have these tactics used on them so they understand what they authorized.
So long as we as America stand for democracy and freedom from oppression this is exactly what is most important to us. When someone tries to mess with us, we take it to them. If someone makes our nation do something we appall and is morally against our values. We make him pay.
And no this isn't the only thing people could talk about. There's a thing called multi-tasking
Afghanistan was in accordance with international law.
The Taliban was given a choice of giving up the people that had done the attack, or choose there side and risk war.They choose to support them and thats the basis for the Afghan war.
"No deficit."?
Thats not because of the two wars,even if they do cost allot.There just not the cause of US deficit spending.
You come of as bias when you take everything you dont like,or agree with,and put that under the current populistic political rhetoric.
"Afghanistan was in accordance with international law"
Tell that to the people held at Bagram AFB.
1 Trillion Dollars per year on "defense" PLUS the Supplemental budgets, 100+ Billion per year to maintain 700 bases worldwide. Think what you want to think.
Actually the current populist rhetoric is to suck up to Obama while allowing 2 brutal wars to continue.
What does military cost have to do with the political reasons for going to war?The military is a political tool.Of course it will cost more if used,but its cost in retrospect is not a valid argument on"how"it was used in the first place.
Leaving Afg and Iraq at this time would just mean two new"Iran"like countries and be a great risk to secular Pakistan.
I actually agree with most things you say. I just think you underestimate how much influence the Military Industrial complex has. What about Cheney's connection to Haliburton? Thinks thats just a coincidence?
Unfortunately there is no military solution to Iraq or Afghanistan.
You do realize that the Iraqi-government is very closely allied to Iran...
What I was saying about Bagram is that the detention and torture of innocent civilians is illegal.
I think Halliburton maybe got contracts because of the link,but not that the war was started to"serve"private companies.
"...Iraqi-government is very closely allied to Iran."
Thats just not true and a statement like that totally ignores Iran/Iraq history.There is no reason why Iraq power structures,likingUSor not,would want Iran to have a big influence.
Torture does work. By a very common sense perspective everybody probably has an experience of being physically threatened and coughing up truth. If torture doesn't work why throughout history have countless civilizations utilized torture? - Because it works. However the question shouldn't be whether torture works, but whether it's moral to use torture. If people keep arguing in that direction it makes way for the argument that torture is justified under the condition of its effectiveness.
no! thats wrong, torture was never used to get info. it ALWAYS was a meathod of coersion and intimidation. the spanish used it to get false cofessions and to scare the native americans. the chinese use it today for that exact reason
look, someone who is being tortured would yell out just about anything to satisfy the captors and worse they could be coerced into giving a false confetion that is usually politically motivated..
such actions undermine the rule of law and thats why it is banned
It only works if the person is actually guilty and wants the punishment to stop. But I feel if there is "questionable" evidence, then it is more likely your interrorgators are going to continue till they get something. To keep pushing till either they stop, or you snap. One or the other. But as the suffering continues and you want it to stop, chances are likely you will snap first, just to make it stop. Since they feel nothing. It's a failed practice.
Correct, however those arguments still operate under the fallacy that other interrogation methods don't work at all.
The facts through Iraq, Afghanistan all show that normal interrogation methods worked to get info from detainees. The torturing to those people were done after they told everything they knew. You can't justify torturing someone after he willingly told you everything he knew.
Umm...we confirm the story by piecing the evidence together. If it doesn't match up, we just interrogate him again. WTF? why would you go and torture him just to see if he'll change his story?
bornbillsmith - "Because you are risking the lives of our soldiers if you use intell that could be a plant"
And you think torture avoids this how, exactly? If the person doesn't know anything and is just telling you what they think you want to hear so you'll stop? Waste of time.
As for the rest of your disrespectful blather, I've served in our military, have you? I don't put ANYTHING ahead of the lives of our troops/fellow Americans, that's why I respect and defend our Constitution.
"But I was referring to a situation where we have been told they do have knowledge of the type we need."
Told by who? Do you realize that villagers in Afghanistan were (and likely still are) turning in their own enemies by declaring them "terrorists" to US forces? If the law were being followed and proper investigation done - which takes no longer than torture and is more reliable - the innocent people we're allegedly trying to help would have a much better appreciation for democracy.
You know what was the biggest shit plant of all? When Dick Cheney ordered to torture a guy till the guy said Iraq is related to Al-Quaeda and lead us to the Iraq war.
How many soldiers died from that? Of course I care if Americans die.
You say it'll be worth it if even one American was saved. But the reports say NO ATTACK WAS AVERTED FROM INFO GOTTEN FROM TORTURE. If there was, then I have sympathy for the cause, but it didn't do jack.
@ this point, I think EVERY American- young & old should read 1984- but may I also ask- please read "My Life As A Traitor" by Zarah Ghahramani and watch the movie "Closet Land". Torture IS sadistic & cruel & wrong & from some of the reports the US tortured ppl who had nothing to do terrorism- cab drivers, innocent civilians...
@ this point, I think EVERY American- young & old should read 1984- but may I also ask- please read "My Life As A Traitor" by Zarah Ghahramani and watch the movie "Closet Land". Torture IS sadistic
We let this torture thing slide, we are truly and I mean truly fucked. It will be Americas defense attornies wet dream. If you have a brother or sister that is falsly accused of something and the cops used "enhanced interogation techniques", I hope your brother or sister does not think that they can go to court and prosecute the cops. All the cops have to say is shit, our government tortures, don't come after me. Some people can't think or see past their noses. Ridiculous!
This can be easily dismissed as just a means to justify try to give credibility to the 9/11 bullshit, while at the same time challenging the use of torture. kill 2 birds with one stone.
yeah !!!! Its all made up !!!! Let me me ask you a question.....Are you going to answer a question that you do not want to answer by me threating you or breaking your fucking soul....you are a puppet for them...YOUR A PIECE OF SHIT>>>>>DIE
I am really heartened that liberals have suddenly found religion or at least morals. Though I don't think they understand why they have this morals. In fact, if they really think about it, they probably would be confused given their unnatural devotion to relativism and academic freedom and free thought etc.
What the hell are you talking about? What evidence do you have that all liberals reject religion, which is what you are implying. And how is it unnatural to have "devotion" to relativism and academic freedom? I guess stupidity is more valued than intelligence, is that what you are saying??? You must fall under the sort since you defend it...Makes sense given your comment.
Ummm... rational thinking liberals most likely came to the conclusion themselves that morals make the most sense EVEN IF THEY DO NOT COME FROM A RELIGION.
Free thought allows for the exchanging of ideas and allows liberals to have a strong foundation for which their values come from. You know why? BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN CHALLENGED CONSTANTLY and had to be good enough to stand strong among constant debate.
Religious based morals are based upon a book and pastors who can debate for it that's it!!
And probably saved your life and those of your family time and time again. I mean you can say the same thing about other large Federal agencies. Fannie Mae is SOOOOO corrupt. Congress is SOOOO corrupt.
Western values are under attack by the right wing menace in this country. The West should not torture. Period. Tell the Republicans to take their anti-western bs to Israel.
Western values have been under attack ever since USA started when we did not abolish slavery. Western values are crumbling because we allow unborn people to be experimented and sodomites to marry. So where do you get your moral absolute about torture from?
Where is your bible of Western values? It's not in the Constitution or the Declaration is it? Who determines Western values. The West has tortured enemies for centuries. So has the East for that matter.
There is no definitive "bible" or "declaration" of western values. They simply are. I live in the west, I have values, and they are thus my western values. I look around and see that the vast majority of people living in the west today support those very same values.
And among these is a rejection of torture as a method of statecraft. if there was ever a quintessential modern western value, it would be this one. And a rejection of theocracy to name another one.
And what if your "vast majority" starts to change my dear? If you go to the 1950s, sodomite marriage was unthinkable. So the people living then and living now have that set of Western values. Now, let's go ahead 50 years and posit that most people think it's OK to waterboard enemies of the state. Where are your values then?
Very true. Values, in all cultures, are malleable.
But at the present time my western values are the zeitgeist and I can thus defend them from a position of strength. In 50 years if those values fall out of favor, then its time to fight for them.
To take your example of "sodomy", 50 years ago they were not considered western values. Now they are. And now people who see that as wrong are fighting the zeitgeist from a position of weakness.
Zeitgeist? Time spirit? What is that a sorry neopagan replacement for God? Sounds like you've been reading too much Hegel and Nietschze. So if I understand you, if in 100 years most people embrace the Nazi world view that is the world view to fight for?
Nothing to do with god.. The zeitgeist is the spirit of the times, the ideas, values, and beliefs that dominate. And yes ive read both Nietschze and Hegel, and no I did not have them in mind when I posted the term zeitgeist. I only used the word as a term and not to carry any connotations from either writer.
To answer your question, no. You missed the point. If the values that I consider western fall out of favor to Nazism, then its time to fight Nazism and being back my values.
Is there no room for moral education or correction in your view? What if after believing for most your life that abortion is OK you then are presented with evidence or a life experience that says it's not OK. Do you slavishly follow your western values of the first half of your life or allow yourself to be open to the learning?
Why would there not be room for moral and educational correction? A freudian slip on your part mr. religious?
People's values are shaped by their own life experiences. If your hypothetical situation that you described occured 100% to the letter, then my values would already be changed by however I as a person was changed. But that hasnt happened, and pro-life people are dead wrong.
From the sound of those complaining about evil interrogators it's almost as if liberal democrats believe in right and wrong. Well that's a development. I thought moral relativism was the intellectual's principle. You know "what's wrong for you may not be wrong for me?" You know: "There are no moral absolutes." So where are they getting all this righteousness now? From the Bible? From some unscientific "well everyone knows torturing your enemy is wrong.?" Anyone care to answer?
Oh, they know its wrong. They just pretend they don't know its going on, or they try to redefine the meaning of the word so they can face the nation and say, "we do not torture".
Torture is usefull for nothing but getting false confessions.
To extract information effectivly you need to slowly build up a Relationship of trust with the prisoner and then slowly pump them of the information they have within them.
Yes just like it's old and common knowledge that if you so much as look as a woman with lust you have committed adultery with your eyes. So when is the last time you tortured someone or are you just getting this oracular insight from some torture guide. Read your history!! After Guy Fawkes tried to blow up the English Parliament, they caught some of the perpetrators and boy they made them sing like a bird.
I see, your proposition is not: torture does not get information but non-torture interrogation does get information. You've committed a common logical fallacy in your reasoning. So now, do you believe everything you read? Or have you compared what's written about British techniques with other accounts of interrogation.
And now you have lost another member, Arlen Spector a republican for over 40 yrs. That's just sad. The new polls say that only 21% of americans say they are republicans, that leaves 79% who are eitherdemocrat or independents(who mostly vote with dems). I guess that we should start calling the republicans the right wing nuts!
why lie about tortures effectiveness? to get the American people ready for Marshall law!
SuomiLifter01 3 days ago
Waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed gave Up Bin Laden’s Courier who in turn gave the Navy SEALs Bin Laden.
Stupid liberal pricks.
MrJoeDrager 2 months ago
@MrJoeDrager Joe, where do you get your information that waterboarding was needed to get this information from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
stourleyk 2 months ago
@MrJoeDrager Matthew Alexander, Former Military Interrogator: Torture Slowed Down Effort to Find Osama bin Laden
Alexander talks about that specific claim.
housecry 4 weeks ago
even if torture works its still wrong we should be above such tactics because it is barbaric and wrong and these are the concepts we are fighting against so it is not only immoral it is hypocritical
prettybabs25 10 months ago
0:01
1monkeymaster 1 year ago
Does this guy live in Arizona?
2000hauntmaster 1 year ago
who gives a shit..even if torture doesnt get us any good info, at least those scumbags get got tortured. I say we skin them and rip their finger nails off. then pour vinegar all over them!!
robbiec2490 1 year ago
@robbiec2490 It's narrowminded people like you, who should be skinned alive and then bathed in the Dead Sea. Those so-called 'scumbags' of yours. Did you ever get to hear their opinion? Unless you did, you should be silenced (by force).
bramcorleone 1 year ago
@bramcorleone
wait a second...your saying that those who decide to rape, kill, and destroy the lifes of others through terrorism tactics or whatever deserve a chance to justify it!? there is no justification for any of it! and then you go even further to say that i deserve to be skinned alive for the basic belief that murder is wrong, and those who choose to do so shall be punished? wheres the logic in that? Hey everyone lets defend the fuckups and takedown those who have done nothing wrong!
robbiec2490 1 year ago
America is supposed to stand for something better. Once we as a nation say that it's okay to torture people, ANY people, then it's over. This will cease to be the America that our grandparents believed in. The day we start accepting the torture of our fellow human beings, we become exactly what the extremists call us: an evil empire. Are you really okay with justifiying their hatred? Or are you just more concerned about who wins American Idol?
DontStareAtTheSun 2 years ago
torture does not exist in America.
azba323 2 years ago
of course it doesn't exist in America that's why there isn't any terrorist jails in America they all happen in different country's in American jail's
lui2345 2 years ago
haha while were on the subjects on the many truths torture has extract why dont i add we also found out witches actually exist by some simple torture :o
flipperboy 2 years ago 3
[flipperboy] > why dont i add we also found out witches actually exist by some simple torture
LOL you just reminded me of one of my favorite "Treehouse of Horror" Simpsons episodes: "Easy Bake Coven" --
Salem Constable Wiggum: "Okay so, if you really are innocent then when we push you off this cliff you will fall to a Christian death, but if you are a witch then you'll use your supernatural powers to fly to safety, in which case you'll return here for torture and execution."
zenhkim 2 years ago
there is no evidence that torture works but well Republicans want to say it does because Cheney and the people that did it or allow say it works.
sgsfdgfsdfsdfsddf 2 years ago 15
@sgsfdgfsdfsdfsddf
torture has been around for thousands of years, used to extract information..it definitely works! obviously not in every case but it does work!
robbiec2490 1 year ago
@robbiec2490 True, but it's pointless to extract such specific conclusions from a broad spectrum of data. It's obvious that tortue works sometimes and sometimes it does not; what's actually important is the distribution of when it's right and when it's wrong. I don't really know which one occurs more often.... However according to this video, torture doesn't work more often then it does, therefore it is a bad idea.
Kawagata 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Now we get to the " Young Turks" a revolutionary show. The talk show on Sirius satellite radio that is OPENLY DISHONEST.
A rare show that combines all of the leftist news that people DON'T care about in one place. We are not afraid to talk about left wing politics and entertainment. If we have to... we will make it up... just to make our side sound good.
Dontgupt208 2 years ago
so did torture work? I have not seen any evidence that show that it does
sgsfdgfsdfsdfsddf 2 years ago 20
This has been flagged as spam show
To sgsfdgfsdfsdfsddf ...hold on I'll run the papers down to your office.
Just ask Obama to release the information ...but if he does...that will only weaken his / your argument.
Dontgupt208 2 years ago
So nothing... check and mate. you lost
sgsfdgfsdfsdfsddf 2 years ago 10
This comment has received too many negative votes show
In your dreams ( that's the make believe world you live in).
Dontgupt208 2 years ago
@sgsfdgfsdfsdfsddf
You probably feel pretty stupid now, don't you?
teamShotFilms 8 months ago
The terrorists hate america. If we continue these types of methods of pursuit i.e. torture, wars with the wrong countries, we become the assholes they think we are. We have to pursue our enemies with a sence of love and respect, I know that's a hard statement to take, but we must get to the bottom of why our enemies hate us, only then will they stop being our enemies.
TMundo 2 years ago 2
I love how we all have to be "libs" or conservatives. Great. Thats exactly what we need to do. DIvide ourselves in typical ignorant american fashion so we can be on the "winning" team. Right. Why can't we be americans? This red/blue bullshit sure seemed to start with bush....
JunFan777 2 years ago 2
Well said, bollocks, but well said nonetheless.
o8QWERTYo8 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Pelosi knew about waterboarding from the get-go and lied. What are you libs going to do about it?
donottake 2 years ago
If Pelosi knew then she should be prosecuted just like Cheney, Bush and anyone else who had part... Fact of the matter is we tortured and obviously Cheney and Bush knew... how else would they have been given the order to torture... get you head out your ass!
ERAUPRCWA 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Waterboarding saves lives...
jarvis1211 2 years ago
show proof...
ERAUPRCWA 2 years ago
Comment removed
mojobobo178 2 years ago
we all know they are going to be let go
Bm0h 2 years ago
double standard
hopes26 2 years ago
Comment removed
cindersguy 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
If you think what we did in Gitmo was torture, you don't know what torture is. I only WISH we'd torture these people, but we won't, because we're America; We're the Good Guys. But hey, when Obama empties the terrorists out of there, maybe you can have a few move in at your house.
cindersguy 2 years ago
We are the good guys, yeah right! We go and destroy other countries but we are the good guys?
Obamaownswhitesnow 2 years ago
If waterboarding works so well, why did Bush allegedly only waterboard 3 of the thousands of "terrorists" they detained?
ismeme 2 years ago
and....why did he waterboard one of them for 183 times?
What were they thinking at 182?
"..oh surely it will work next time"?
2realmadrid3 2 years ago 4
Well, we've since learned it was actually 183 POURS, not sessions, but your point is well taken.
I'll tell you what they were likely thinking. The same thing a TX sheriff and his 3 deputies were thinking in '83 when they were caught waterboarding suspects to force confessions from them. They were federally prosecuted and jailed. The sheriff did 10 years!
ismeme 2 years ago 3
DO you know ANYTHING? do you know where Sirhan Sirhan is? John Hinkley jr? Terry Nichols? well they're still locked up. what are you talking about "empties the terrorist out of there..." most of them haven't been prosecuted to even be considered terrorist, we denied them a chance to defend themselves. And for those who are found guilty will be sent to maximum security prisons just like the other people society has forgotten about. Stop listening to Fox News.
ERAUPRCWA 2 years ago 4
great vid!
check my spidy video! cool..
battyguy 2 years ago
watch?v=RpFd5G9qI7Q
blaknificent09 2 years ago
Trust me aledg, (I) was terrified when bush was President, and trust me when I say that 80% of Americans feel the same way! That fucker went off the rails. I am 50 years old and have never seen such a catistrophic failure of an administration. Please accept my apologies, and I know i speak for most Americans. It will take decades to fix bush's cluster fuck! Oh, and I liked Reagan and didn't like Clinton, so I don't stay with my party all of the time.
peaceispatriotic7 2 years ago 3
How would and FBI agent know how well the CIA interrogations went?
LOL
MeLikeGoFast 2 years ago
Cause he was there?
Vash1202 2 years ago
Let me ask those who support torture a question. When Tim Mcveigh, Jeffrey Dahmer, the unabomber and the BTK killer were arrested, were they tortured to get him to confess? No, althought they were killers just like Khalid Cheikh Muhamed. When murderers and child molesters are arrested in America, are they tortured to get them to confess? No because it's against american values. So, if we don't torture US criminals then why should we torture foreign criminals even if they are terrorists?
momardrame 2 years ago
Wow, you said a lot here. Have you any idea how terrifying and insulting it is that our friend the USA would deny one of our citizens basic human rights?
We as Americans better listen to this guy. Our reputation around the world is ruined thanks to the last asshole President. I can't even gag out the guys name. Whether it is that Kaled Shake (sp) dude or your run of the mill robber, we treat them the SAME in our justice system, that is what makes us great. Where are you from?
peaceispatriotic7 2 years ago 2
Yes...brainwashed. Useful idiot, as Lenin would say.
Pighood 2 years ago
You are brainwashed. Grow up.
Pighood 2 years ago
Piggy, you must really love rolling around in the filth with the terrorists. I don't suppose you'll ever get up and act like a man instead of like the bullying cowards they are.
ismeme 2 years ago
When did you stop fondling cub scouts?
Pighood 2 years ago
When did you stop beating your wife?
ismeme 2 years ago
Shortly after I burned your corpse in a blast furnace.
*beep*
Pighood 2 years ago
Pighood - "Shortly after I burned your corpse in a blast furnace."
Shades of Nazi Germany. Why am I not surprised.
ismeme 2 years ago
Why do you hate blacks?
Pighood 2 years ago
Why do you hate America?
ismeme 2 years ago
Do the black people you drown struggle much?
Pighood 2 years ago
Why is the rum gone?
ismeme 2 years ago
Because you mistook it for K-Y.
Pighood 2 years ago
Kentucky makes rum?!?!?
ismeme 2 years ago
Bourbon.
Pighood 2 years ago
Thanks for asking, I'll take two.
ismeme 2 years ago
Finish your sprouts first.
Pighood 2 years ago
Interesting how Pro-INFANTICIDE "progressives" are so bent out of shape about the NON-lethal tactics used upon heros of the islamic world cause.
Fuck you.
Pighood 2 years ago
What's funnier than a dead baby?
A dead baby in a clown costume!
tommysch 2 years ago
...with a scissor in the hat.
Pighood 2 years ago
"The CIA has said that the information gained through water boarding helped to thwart over 30 terrorist attacks."
Seeing as how they did it, I have no doubt that's what they said.
"These people decapitate our soldiers"
And? Waterboarding isn't about them it's about us, and the usual "he punched me; I punched him back" excuse no longer flies. Most US people aren't as dumb as you. Thank God.
We do need the moral high ground, because if we dismiss it any another humane pursuit reeks of hypocrisy.
Savior20061 2 years ago
Notice that he is getting all of his information from an FBI agent, when in fact it is the CIA and the military who is in charge of these interrogations.
Also if you do not know what water boarding is, it involves putting a burlap sack over the person's head and pouring water on their face. It simulates drowning, and although it may be very scary and discomforting, it is neither excruciatingly painful nor does it leave permanent damage.
gerbinator2009 2 years ago
The CIA has said that the information gained through water boarding helped to thwart over 30 terrorist attacks.
Although it may be more desirable to take the moral high ground on this issue, imagine the crap Bush and Cheney would have gotten if they hadn't water boarded, and there actually was a terrorist attack.
Looks like Bush and Cheney were damned if they did and damned if they didn't water board.
Sounds like a Catch-22, which by the way, is a great book.
gerbinator2009 2 years ago
you are a moron, the FBI did have a huge roll in extracting info from gitmo detainies. You also don't know shit about water boarding, they don't put a burlap sack over someones face and pour water on it, the stuff wet rags down their throats and pour water down their nose. I'm not going to speculate on whether its painful or leaves damage becouse unlike you, i don't just make shit up.
thef13nd138 2 years ago
The problem with people like you tyt and obama is that even after the bombing of the SS Cole, the WTC , and the planes going into our twin towers, you dont want to call a spade a spade and protect Americans.. water boarding is torture? torture is wrong? These people decapitate our soldiers , send their children into public places with bombs strapped to their body.. Very few Americans are as sympathetic as you. Thank God.
rootintootin70 2 years ago
"water boarding is torture?"
Yes, the experience is dangerous, traumatic, and meant to stir up false info from its victims. Sounds like torture to me. "torture is wrong?"
Oh for God's sake, had it been any other time period, any other country, any other party except Republicans you would be saying it was wrong.
Savior20061 2 years ago
"you dont want to call a spade a spade and protect Americans.."
Calling torture "enhanced interrogation" is exactly the opposite. And how pray tell does covering a terrorist's face and dousing it in water insure our safety? It doesn't. Typical neo-con thought. Shoot the brown people? It's to protect the country. Invade their lands? Protect the country. Spy on your own citizens? Protect the country.
Savior20061 2 years ago
Ok....the young jerk is correct here.....but why doesn't he bring up the fact that WE STILL TORTURE.....his messiah Obaaaa-ma has not put a stop to anything...(read the signing order....not the sound bite from the "news")
One sided bullshit from the young jerk.....dividing Americans at every oportunity!
HEYBUDD 2 years ago
What day is Hannity having the waterboarding done?
DillonX 2 years ago
There's more of a chance of me having a sex change then Hannity EVER doing waterboarding... bad image on my behalf:-)
ERAUPRCWA 2 years ago 3
my bad, read more of the comments, u meant to say against toturing. my fault thought u said show proof that fbi did get the info b4
mojobobo178 2 years ago 2
:-) no problem
ERAUPRCWA 2 years ago 2
uh, I think he got THIS information from an FBI agent.
OmegaWord2011 2 years ago
Cenk is an idiot. Everyone knows that LIBERALS are divorced from logic and reason. Where does he get his 'facts' from.
captainpicard0 2 years ago
it seems like you weren't listening. but I mean its no surprise considering your ignorant and biased comment.
gholis 2 years ago
was it torture in 24 (season 2 i think) when Jack Bauer pretended to kill one of the terrorist's sons?
genuine question...
tomasino747 2 years ago
Waterboarding was not considered torture by the 3 terrorists who underwent it if it didn't effect them, as you claim. Apparently, it was torture, if in fact, as YOU claim it occurred on 183 occasions. It was 183 pours of water on Muhammad & 83 on Zubaydah. The #s reported were not state dept #s but avg reported by terrorist & red Cross.
bruzzones2000 2 years ago
Muhammad told the Red Cross he only experienced waterboarding for five days during the first month in custody. This differs with the amount of time he claimed to be "tortured." The Al Qaeda Manual addresses that terrorists may be waterboarded if captured. It instructs them to claim they have been tortured. In detail, it instructs them on the U.S. interrogation methods. Membership in Al Qaeda is voluntary. They know it can happen and they prepare and they lie about torture.
bruzzones2000 2 years ago
You need to check facts. Waterboarding did work. Mohammad revealed details of a 2003 plan to attack the West Coast with planes. He wasn't waterboarded on 183 occasions. He told the Red Cross: "I was also subjected to 'water-boarding' on five occasions, all of which occurred during the first month."
bruzzones2000 2 years ago
Also, don't forget we got our torture techniques from a Chinese manual. This Chinese manual was made not to get the truth, but to get the prisoners to say whatever the Chinese wanted them to say.
tybrady64 2 years ago
I think the people at the top know they are goin down. So those underneath them will begin to come forward with information before they get whacked!!
suroj 2 years ago
Would it matter if torture worked?
Would it be less of a crime?
I hope Bush gets the "Clinton/Lewinsky" treatment.
Lobos222 2 years ago
Look I dont care if it works or not...it s WRONG. Im with Sheperd Smith on that one. We shouldnt torture. But lets not talk about it every damn news cycle. We have a huge loss of jobs, the economy is in shambles and getting worse. We must let this go and move ahead.
Hopefully the GOP gets it and will oust the Neocons and pout real conservatives in power so this doesnt happen again. THis is the work of the neocons...they are nowhere near conservative. But they call themselves conservatve.
calimar28 2 years ago
Pragmatism, expediency, revenge, the might buck. These are the values of our ruling political class.
mattlewis66 2 years ago
All a waste of precious time and energy. And the hypocrisy of the left now all of sudden getting morals and getting all righteous stinks to high heaven. Now all of sudden something is actually wrong in their book, but they have no basis upon which to explain why it is wrong other than some wacky appeals to zeitgeist, amorphous ever-changing western values (isn't that politically incorrect to say -- insulting in fact to the East?), or maybe its based on love love love from the sorry ass 60s
mattlewis66 2 years ago
You're wrong, there are morals that all educated philosophers know about that goes beyond your understanding in thinking that morals are subjective and randomly found to suit a political party's agenda.
You ever heard of the golden rule? Look it up and a lot of things would start to make sense as to why people act a certain way towards "immoral" acts.
Vash1202 2 years ago
"All educated philosphers." Was Nietzsche educated? Yes. Was he a philosopher? Yes. Did he teach that there was no good or evil only the will to power? Yes. If you look deep enough into the premise of liberal moral thought its stands on moral relativism, not some absolute principles or morals. Oh and that's nice lip service to the golden rule, but try applying it to the unborn and the left ies will spout profanities and insults and deride you.
mattlewis66 2 years ago
You're right about Neitzsche but your assumption that liberal moral thought have to be based on absolute principles or morals in order to achieve validity is a fallacy imo. Even if it changes relative to the time, what exactly is horrible and terrible about it. I know there are good parts to it too. Same with absolute principles
The premise to me seems to be golden rule. We can argue all day about how it ties into the unborn and I will never insult you, some people would and they're asshole
Vash1202 2 years ago
I know Hannity agreed to be tortured by waterboarding ... Will this take place this week?
Please don't tell me Hannity has turned CHICKEN?
DillonX 2 years ago
The FBI visited me about 3 months ago about some emails I sent...
Fags!!
marcomariaz26 2 years ago
bullshit torture does work. Now could we have gotten it in another way, maybe
dundermifflin158 2 years ago
"bullshit torture does work. Now could we have gotten it in another way,maybe."
The same way we got it from the Nazis?
You know, the "old school Axis of Evil"...
You should watch some US prisoner movies.
I dont remember its name, but one pops to mind where a few US air men where captured in Vietnam.They, previously, where trained to give the biggest BS stories when/if they where tortured...which they did.
Lots of good intel for Vietcong.
*****
Btw, anyone know the name of my wage movie ref?
Lobos222 2 years ago
Hey I got a quesion. WHO GIVES A FUCK? FOr the last 2 weeks all we hear about is torture! That is all you libs can talk about. Out nation is crumbling all around us, we are losing the war, we shouldnt even be there. The dollar is losing value, we are losing jobs, and all you libs talk about is torture!
ITS WRONG, WE GET IT! Move on.
calimar28 2 years ago
If we moved on after the holocaust imagine what injustuces would have been hiden. Bush's henchmen and Bush himself need to be found guilty and have these tactics used on them so they understand what they authorized.
HAPrime 2 years ago
Its wrong, we get it, but people are getting away with it so we can't move on.
ranast316 2 years ago
So long as we as America stand for democracy and freedom from oppression this is exactly what is most important to us. When someone tries to mess with us, we take it to them. If someone makes our nation do something we appall and is morally against our values. We make him pay.
And no this isn't the only thing people could talk about. There's a thing called multi-tasking
Vash1202 2 years ago
No we don't get it.
Its about the rule of Law. Thats why it matters. This law thing is kinda important in economic matters, foreign policy and social justice.
People have rights, the US cannot act above the law to anyone.
If Bush followed the law, he would not have invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.
When hundreds of Billions of dollars are spend every year on the US Military, while the nation starves. THATS why it matters.
No war, No torture, No deficit.
micahgee 2 years ago 2
Afghanistan was in accordance with international law.
The Taliban was given a choice of giving up the people that had done the attack, or choose there side and risk war.They choose to support them and thats the basis for the Afghan war.
"No deficit."?
Thats not because of the two wars,even if they do cost allot.There just not the cause of US deficit spending.
You come of as bias when you take everything you dont like,or agree with,and put that under the current populistic political rhetoric.
Lobos222 2 years ago
"Afghanistan was in accordance with international law"
Tell that to the people held at Bagram AFB.
1 Trillion Dollars per year on "defense" PLUS the Supplemental budgets, 100+ Billion per year to maintain 700 bases worldwide. Think what you want to think.
Actually the current populist rhetoric is to suck up to Obama while allowing 2 brutal wars to continue.
micahgee 2 years ago
"Tell that to the people held at BagramAFB."
?,sure.
I dont mind telling people the truth.
The truth being good or bad news.
"1 trillion..."
What does military cost have to do with the political reasons for going to war?The military is a political tool.Of course it will cost more if used,but its cost in retrospect is not a valid argument on"how"it was used in the first place.
Leaving Afg and Iraq at this time would just mean two new"Iran"like countries and be a great risk to secular Pakistan.
Lobos222 2 years ago
I actually agree with most things you say. I just think you underestimate how much influence the Military Industrial complex has. What about Cheney's connection to Haliburton? Thinks thats just a coincidence?
Unfortunately there is no military solution to Iraq or Afghanistan.
You do realize that the Iraqi-government is very closely allied to Iran...
What I was saying about Bagram is that the detention and torture of innocent civilians is illegal.
US is the largest terror state bar none.
micahgee 2 years ago
"...Cheney's connection to Halliburton?..."
I think Halliburton maybe got contracts because of the link,but not that the war was started to"serve"private companies.
"...Iraqi-government is very closely allied to Iran."
Thats just not true and a statement like that totally ignores Iran/Iraq history.There is no reason why Iraq power structures,likingUSor not,would want Iran to have a big influence.
"...no military solution to Iraq or Afghanistan."
You wont get peace without safety in the proses.
Lobos222 2 years ago
Yep, Dick Cheney should be in jail. Period.
SatwaMan 2 years ago 4
Torture does work. By a very common sense perspective everybody probably has an experience of being physically threatened and coughing up truth. If torture doesn't work why throughout history have countless civilizations utilized torture? - Because it works. However the question shouldn't be whether torture works, but whether it's moral to use torture. If people keep arguing in that direction it makes way for the argument that torture is justified under the condition of its effectiveness.
numbergirl7 2 years ago
From a common sense perspective, yes.
From an informed and scientifically learned perspective, not as much.
albee1000 2 years ago
Sometimes people just say what others want to hear, which isnt always the truth
Calamanatione 2 years ago
no! thats wrong, torture was never used to get info. it ALWAYS was a meathod of coersion and intimidation. the spanish used it to get false cofessions and to scare the native americans. the chinese use it today for that exact reason
look, someone who is being tortured would yell out just about anything to satisfy the captors and worse they could be coerced into giving a false confetion that is usually politically motivated..
such actions undermine the rule of law and thats why it is banned
MikeRoch6969 2 years ago 4
Hmm. in my opinion "yes & no".
It only works if the person is actually guilty and wants the punishment to stop. But I feel if there is "questionable" evidence, then it is more likely your interrorgators are going to continue till they get something. To keep pushing till either they stop, or you snap. One or the other. But as the suffering continues and you want it to stop, chances are likely you will snap first, just to make it stop. Since they feel nothing. It's a failed practice.
plord28 2 years ago
Correct, however those arguments still operate under the fallacy that other interrogation methods don't work at all.
The facts through Iraq, Afghanistan all show that normal interrogation methods worked to get info from detainees. The torturing to those people were done after they told everything they knew. You can't justify torturing someone after he willingly told you everything he knew.
Vash1202 2 years ago 2
How do you know the info that was given up using normal interrogation methods were not stories made up to confuse.
We needed to confirm what was told to us and torture was used to see if they would change their story.
bornbillsmith 2 years ago
Umm...we confirm the story by piecing the evidence together. If it doesn't match up, we just interrogate him again. WTF? why would you go and torture him just to see if he'll change his story?
Vash1202 2 years ago
Because you are risking the lives of our soldiers if you use intell that could be a plant
I put the lives of our soldiers ahead of the suffering of our enemies.
I guess you don't care if an American dies.
I am not an expert on this and neither are you.
I would say if even only one American is saved then it was worth it.
.
bornbillsmith 2 years ago
bornbillsmith - "Because you are risking the lives of our soldiers if you use intell that could be a plant"
And you think torture avoids this how, exactly? If the person doesn't know anything and is just telling you what they think you want to hear so you'll stop? Waste of time.
As for the rest of your disrespectful blather, I've served in our military, have you? I don't put ANYTHING ahead of the lives of our troops/fellow Americans, that's why I respect and defend our Constitution.
ismeme 2 years ago
You contradict yourself.
You say a person will say anything to avoid the torture and therefore even if nothing is known will make up something to stop that torture.
That is true.
But I was referring to a situation where we have been told they do have knowledge of the type we need.
Torture breaks the will of the person being tortured and therefore what was told us using other means can be confirmed by the use of torture.
You might be right but I'm not willing to take that risk.
bornbillsmith 2 years ago
"But I was referring to a situation where we have been told they do have knowledge of the type we need."
Told by who? Do you realize that villagers in Afghanistan were (and likely still are) turning in their own enemies by declaring them "terrorists" to US forces? If the law were being followed and proper investigation done - which takes no longer than torture and is more reliable - the innocent people we're allegedly trying to help would have a much better appreciation for democracy.
ismeme 2 years ago
You know what was the biggest shit plant of all? When Dick Cheney ordered to torture a guy till the guy said Iraq is related to Al-Quaeda and lead us to the Iraq war.
How many soldiers died from that? Of course I care if Americans die.
You say it'll be worth it if even one American was saved. But the reports say NO ATTACK WAS AVERTED FROM INFO GOTTEN FROM TORTURE. If there was, then I have sympathy for the cause, but it didn't do jack.
Vash1202 2 years ago
Vash did you just ask how many soldiers died from the Iraq war?
rsty614 2 years ago
You know what they say, if at first you don't succeed, try try again.
CFrostyTheSnowman 2 years ago
What day are they gonna waterboard Hannity...anyone know?
DillonX 2 years ago
hopefully soon...
EverNumb 2 years ago
Fuck your mom thrice.
juarezrt 2 years ago
@ this point, I think EVERY American- young & old should read 1984- but may I also ask- please read "My Life As A Traitor" by Zarah Ghahramani and watch the movie "Closet Land". Torture IS sadistic & cruel & wrong & from some of the reports the US tortured ppl who had nothing to do terrorism- cab drivers, innocent civilians...
Susieshepherd 2 years ago
great book
Calamanatione 2 years ago
@ this point, I think EVERY American- young & old should read 1984- but may I also ask- please read "My Life As A Traitor" by Zarah Ghahramani and watch the movie "Closet Land". Torture IS sadistic
Susieshepherd 2 years ago
show of hands, Americans only...For or against torture?
ok, show of hands, how many believe it has and still is going on?
how about in police stations across america? you think they're still wacking with phone books?
f
closeoutcrew 2 years ago
TYT sucks
normandale1987 2 years ago
you must believe in Jesus
Chibling 2 years ago
reality sucks
Iker888 2 years ago
We let this torture thing slide, we are truly and I mean truly fucked. It will be Americas defense attornies wet dream. If you have a brother or sister that is falsly accused of something and the cops used "enhanced interogation techniques", I hope your brother or sister does not think that they can go to court and prosecute the cops. All the cops have to say is shit, our government tortures, don't come after me. Some people can't think or see past their noses. Ridiculous!
peaceispatriotic7 2 years ago
This can be easily dismissed as just a means to justify try to give credibility to the 9/11 bullshit, while at the same time challenging the use of torture. kill 2 birds with one stone.
Thrashaero 2 years ago
Liberal pacifists live in a dream world and have no clue. Get away from me.
skydogz1 2 years ago
Jesus was a liberal pacifist
rbez1984 2 years ago
Exactly
BraveNewAtheist 2 years ago
And look where it got him...
toldyousohaha 2 years ago
for the record: Youtube debate=fail
Pokedude1013 2 years ago
yeah !!!! Its all made up !!!! Let me me ask you a question.....Are you going to answer a question that you do not want to answer by me threating you or breaking your fucking soul....you are a puppet for them...YOUR A PIECE OF SHIT>>>>>DIE
frankie1521 2 years ago
What exactly are you saying other than wishing someone to die?
mattlewis66 2 years ago
Liberals should egg the right wing on into supporting torture. Be creative and force them to take pro-torture positions.
We want America and the whole world to see just how rabid these creatures are.
glasshour76 2 years ago
I am really heartened that liberals have suddenly found religion or at least morals. Though I don't think they understand why they have this morals. In fact, if they really think about it, they probably would be confused given their unnatural devotion to relativism and academic freedom and free thought etc.
mattlewis66 2 years ago
What the hell are you talking about? What evidence do you have that all liberals reject religion, which is what you are implying. And how is it unnatural to have "devotion" to relativism and academic freedom? I guess stupidity is more valued than intelligence, is that what you are saying??? You must fall under the sort since you defend it...Makes sense given your comment.
dietrijn9er 2 years ago
Ummm... rational thinking liberals most likely came to the conclusion themselves that morals make the most sense EVEN IF THEY DO NOT COME FROM A RELIGION.
Free thought allows for the exchanging of ideas and allows liberals to have a strong foundation for which their values come from. You know why? BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN CHALLENGED CONSTANTLY and had to be good enough to stand strong among constant debate.
Religious based morals are based upon a book and pastors who can debate for it that's it!!
Vash1202 2 years ago
CIA is SOOOOOOOO corrupt!
blupheonix44 2 years ago
And probably saved your life and those of your family time and time again. I mean you can say the same thing about other large Federal agencies. Fannie Mae is SOOOOO corrupt. Congress is SOOOO corrupt.
mattlewis66 2 years ago
Western values are under attack by the right wing menace in this country. The West should not torture. Period. Tell the Republicans to take their anti-western bs to Israel.
glasshour76 2 years ago 3
Western values have been under attack ever since USA started when we did not abolish slavery. Western values are crumbling because we allow unborn people to be experimented and sodomites to marry. So where do you get your moral absolute about torture from?
mattlewis66 2 years ago
Those are merely side issues distracting from the point of contention, torture. Western values do not include torture.
Addressing the sidenotes, abortion and civil rights both fall under the western value of secularism and freedom.
glasshour76 2 years ago
Where is your bible of Western values? It's not in the Constitution or the Declaration is it? Who determines Western values. The West has tortured enemies for centuries. So has the East for that matter.
mattlewis66 2 years ago
There is no definitive "bible" or "declaration" of western values. They simply are. I live in the west, I have values, and they are thus my western values. I look around and see that the vast majority of people living in the west today support those very same values.
And among these is a rejection of torture as a method of statecraft. if there was ever a quintessential modern western value, it would be this one. And a rejection of theocracy to name another one.
glasshour76 2 years ago
And what if your "vast majority" starts to change my dear? If you go to the 1950s, sodomite marriage was unthinkable. So the people living then and living now have that set of Western values. Now, let's go ahead 50 years and posit that most people think it's OK to waterboard enemies of the state. Where are your values then?
mattlewis66 2 years ago
Very true. Values, in all cultures, are malleable.
But at the present time my western values are the zeitgeist and I can thus defend them from a position of strength. In 50 years if those values fall out of favor, then its time to fight for them.
To take your example of "sodomy", 50 years ago they were not considered western values. Now they are. And now people who see that as wrong are fighting the zeitgeist from a position of weakness.
glasshour76 2 years ago
Zeitgeist? Time spirit? What is that a sorry neopagan replacement for God? Sounds like you've been reading too much Hegel and Nietschze. So if I understand you, if in 100 years most people embrace the Nazi world view that is the world view to fight for?
mattlewis66 2 years ago
Nothing to do with god.. The zeitgeist is the spirit of the times, the ideas, values, and beliefs that dominate. And yes ive read both Nietschze and Hegel, and no I did not have them in mind when I posted the term zeitgeist. I only used the word as a term and not to carry any connotations from either writer.
To answer your question, no. You missed the point. If the values that I consider western fall out of favor to Nazism, then its time to fight Nazism and being back my values.
glasshour76 2 years ago
Is there no room for moral education or correction in your view? What if after believing for most your life that abortion is OK you then are presented with evidence or a life experience that says it's not OK. Do you slavishly follow your western values of the first half of your life or allow yourself to be open to the learning?
mattlewis66 2 years ago
Why would there not be room for moral and educational correction? A freudian slip on your part mr. religious?
People's values are shaped by their own life experiences. If your hypothetical situation that you described occured 100% to the letter, then my values would already be changed by however I as a person was changed. But that hasnt happened, and pro-life people are dead wrong.
glasshour76 2 years ago
From the sound of those complaining about evil interrogators it's almost as if liberal democrats believe in right and wrong. Well that's a development. I thought moral relativism was the intellectual's principle. You know "what's wrong for you may not be wrong for me?" You know: "There are no moral absolutes." So where are they getting all this righteousness now? From the Bible? From some unscientific "well everyone knows torturing your enemy is wrong.?" Anyone care to answer?
mattlewis66 2 years ago
Strawman.
We know right from wrong. Torture is wrong. Republicans seem to not be aware of this.
May they never hold power in America again. They do not deserve it.
tattootomorrow 2 years ago 4
Oh, they know its wrong. They just pretend they don't know its going on, or they try to redefine the meaning of the word so they can face the nation and say, "we do not torture".
juarezrt 2 years ago
This is old and common knowledge.
Torture is usefull for nothing but getting false confessions.
To extract information effectivly you need to slowly build up a Relationship of trust with the prisoner and then slowly pump them of the information they have within them.
qanazir 2 years ago
Yes just like it's old and common knowledge that if you so much as look as a woman with lust you have committed adultery with your eyes. So when is the last time you tortured someone or are you just getting this oracular insight from some torture guide. Read your history!! After Guy Fawkes tried to blow up the English Parliament, they caught some of the perpetrators and boy they made them sing like a bird.
mattlewis66 2 years ago
You should read up on the Interegation Techniques the British used in WW2.
They were effective and humane.
qanazir 2 years ago
I see, your proposition is not: torture does not get information but non-torture interrogation does get information. You've committed a common logical fallacy in your reasoning. So now, do you believe everything you read? Or have you compared what's written about British techniques with other accounts of interrogation.
mattlewis66 2 years ago
short-torture is bad and not getting you anway
uppermanxx 2 years ago
There is no need to break the law, there are plenty of John Legiuizamo and Rob Zombie movies out there
tico8007 2 years ago
And now you have lost another member, Arlen Spector a republican for over 40 yrs. That's just sad. The new polls say that only 21% of americans say they are republicans, that leaves 79% who are eitherdemocrat or independents(who mostly vote with dems). I guess that we should start calling the republicans the right wing nuts!
plumbweis 2 years ago
Now exactly which poll is that and what is the percentages for dems and independents?
mattlewis66 2 years ago
Republicans seem to be for torture, if their current, pro-criminal, rhetoric is any indication.
They seem to actually be evil, not just misguided and uncaring. The distinction is not minor.
One can never justify voting Republican again. Their party has become too hideous.
tattootomorrow 2 years ago 4
And they say Democrats are hideous for killing the unborn and weak on national defense. Republicans are waiting for 2 things:
1. Another terrorist attack
2. Democrats to start devouring former Bush administration officials over torture.
That is their key to a return to power.
toldyousohaha 2 years ago