Greek Americans part 5of20

[gellertmag]

I am Turkish, ı can say my travel in greece is nice, its nice to  travel and have vacation ,but the greeks are not hardworking, the most hardworking greek are from turkey, tsellanoki city is 80 percent turkish immigrant,so they re the ones who re hardworking....

[nm5177]

greece is meant to be a poor nation, or poorer nation, because really the greeks there dont need much. they are self sufficient in food, and they live according to their needs, so the fact that the gov is trying to modernize it and make it a wealthier country is actually just screwing it up. it was stable and doing just fine before the european union

[EffLabels]

@nm5177 That's actually a misconception, if Greece accumilated ALL the tax from their shipping magnets alone, they would have a profit of 90 billion pounds (saw a documnetry on it) I think not just Greece, but Italy, Ireland, Spain etc.. were all better off before the Euro. The Euro was a BIG mistake. And yes,everyone was much happier before it.

[MAXIMILIANVS]

exei o savalas arvanitiki katagogi? Giati diavasa pos katagetai apo to Geraki pou einai ena arvanitoxorio. Xerei kaneis? euxaristo

[hellenic202]

i actually dont see the sense talking about scandals in the greek political scene,once we see a lot of succesfull greeks in america having this nice idea of ideal greece like it was sometime.

[1964Byron]

Hellenic202, I partly agree with you.

But I think that a society needs both criticism for the wrong doings as well as praise for the achievements to go ahead.

If you givw the public only a negative image it will become like it.

If the public gets both negative and positive images then it would have all the needed tools to advance because the bublic does have the ability to make distinguish right from wrong. But that is only when it has both sides to distinguish between and choose.

[Aurense]

Look...I respect those greeks abroad that honor their country with their achievements...but what is Greece? is it only those Greeks abroad? Where is the base? where are the headquarters? In Greece! Why should those Greeks abroad be succesful and their home country be like that? I heard greeks are "waking up" lately and take what is theirs...let's see if that lasts and for how long...

[EffLabels]

@Aurense It's a combonation of socialism and banks lending money like candy that have caused problems for ALL the eu countries. Socialism is bad news, that's why most Greeks do well when out of the country. Privitization is the answer

[Vortexakos]

Ok I will do my best, the thing is that no matter what language we use, be it Hellenic, english, suahili or klingon, this guy needs more research.

[Aurense]

o dialogos ksekinhse sta agglika kai isws na parakolou8oyn ki alloi...mh xaliesai re..eukairia na eksaskiseis thn agglikh(n) sou :P

[Vortexakos]

Γιατί μιλάτε αγγλίκια ρε από τη στιγμή που όλοι ομιλούμε την Ελληνική?Τι διάλο, πως θα πεις "Γαμώ το μουνί της πουτάνας της μανούλας του πούστη του χριστού σου, ηλίθιε μόγλη που νομίζεις οτι ξέρεις τι γίνεται στην Ελλάδα?" Ε? Δεν έχει πλάκα στα αγγλικά...

[MaledictusLXIX]

They who can; immigrate.

This country is about to be less well-off than Slovenia, who turned free-market 20 years ago.

[annavsmith1]

thank God for Greece's growth and economical evolution- Greeks stopped emigrating to the US and are returning home, to happiness, sun, and laughter....

[exxxcccited]

YES YES YES!!!!!

[Aurense]

what? what? what? economical evolution? helloooooooooo

this is an economical crisis we're in! The whole world suffers..and Greece is not an exception...

oh..you must be joking.....well yeah..sorry...maybe you are bad at jokes.....hmmm...ok...YES YES YES Greece is doing fine...greeks are going back.....we live in prosperity...you should get outta the closet and watch the news.....

clueless ppl......

[1964Byron]

Is this the psychological point that one tries to convince himself that he made the right decision for being someplace he preferred not to?

Yes, the whole world is in deep problems right now but still the country is in good shape as most of the west.

Yes, Euro-stats show that more Greeks return home today than leave as lots of foreigners as well.

So it is time to do the same and stop wining.

Όσα δεν φτάνει η αλεπού τα κάνει κρεμαστάρια.

[1964Byron]

Is this the psychological point that one tries to convince himself that he made the right decision for being someplace he preferred not to?

Yes, the whole world is in deep problems right now but still the country is in good shape as most of the west.

Yes, Euro-stats show that more Greeks return home today than leave as lots of foreigners as well.

So it is time to do the same and stop wining.

Όσα δεν φτάνει η αλεπού τα κάνει κρεμαστάρια.

[Aurense]

Show us these euro.stats? and then think if you can compare these days with the older ones.

How many greeks do you know that have actually returned to Greece. I know none. They only send their children to a greek school for some years, but once they graduate they go back.

[Aurense]

Also, those greeks that go back to spend their retirement (the rest of their days) in Greece, are not actually considered to be returning to their roots....c'mon that is lame.

They have grown up in the States,,,but yeaaah they are greeks so they go back at the age of 65yo..kewl

And what did you mean by "So it is time to do the same and stop wining." Is it that I should also return to... somewhere? Where is that place? I thought I am where I am supposed to be :S

[1964Byron]

I dont think my own experiences are that many to create an accurate statistical survey.

Nor it is possible to supply you long stats of this sort, in youtube.

But I would suggest, if you are interested about your country and its image which you hurt by the inaccuracies you say, you can get in the Eurostat page on the net, or in the United Nations page (Human Development Index) and get a whole bunch of stats.

Also World Bank and the International Monetary Fund for economic info.

[Aurense]

Why you keep callin' it MY country...I am not even greek...dunno why you got this kind of idea. I also speak greek if that is what confused you.

I will ask you a simple question...keep in mind, though, that the whole world is having a difficult time. The question is: Do you think that Greece is at the same quality level as the countries in northern Europe?

It is a fact that greeks are getting paid less than swedes or norwegians, but the cost of living is the same. No sign of development there.

[1964Byron]

If youre not Greek why do you get in a page about Greeks and in fluent Greek speak that badly about them

Im economist & art historian and when i don't like an artwork I dont write for it unless I have something against the maker

According to International Monetary Fund, Greece per capita income is about $33000 and Swedens 36000. Living Cost in Greece is much lower.

According to United Nations HDI index Greece has the 18th best standard of living and Sweden the 6th very little difference

[1964Byron]

As I told you before I know the stuff Im talking about and I dont draw my conclussions after press titles or coffee shop talks

The best idicator for quality of life (stanard of living) is the United Nation's Human Development Index which takes under consideration life expectancy (for health), education and standards of living (economic data)

The first 25 nations in the list have very little differences (practically no diffs) - Sweden is No6 and Greece No18

Search on it and we talk again

[1964Byron]

Im sorry if I sounded a bit combative but Im just tired of dated stereotypes like Vardalos movies.

Just a taste of what you see in the pages I mentioned: Greece has the 20th best per capita income in the world according to the International Monetary Fund (28th according to the World Bank) and according to the United Nations Greece is consider to have the 18th highest Human Development Index (standard of living) where the UK for example has the 20th and Germany the 23rd.

[1964Byron]

Of course this doesnt mean that we dont have problems because we do (and when we dont have, we create them we are specialists in that) but no more than other western European nation.

[Aurense]

ok look..first, you should keep in mind that they kinda "mess" with these stats.. I assume you already know about this. second, let's discuss about some key points in progress and development of a country: Schools Hospitals Higher Education (Universities) Government Payroll/Salaries Pollution Criminality. In which of the above you think that Greece is better than Sweden or Norway or Germany or whatever? I assume you already guess my opinion...

[1964Byron]

OK, now I understand your point or your goal I should rather say.

Look I have no insecurities about being generally best and I dont discuss in the tube to prove anything like it. 10 years of University education in Greece, UK and US plus 17 of work in the US, Greece and France for the EU do not allow me to think like that.

[1964Byron]

There is no kinda mess in the stats I gave you. They are official stats from 3 of the biggest and most respected organizations of the planet. (Check them out please)

There is no way all these subjects can be dealt separately in the tube but I would try to give you an answer and direct you if possible to find you own.

Just keep in mind that absolute best does not exist anywhere but in Hollywood movies and in minds of 15 year olds in New Jersey.

[1964Byron]

Criminality 1 of the lowest in Europe

Pollution Greece has 1 of the lowest rates in Europe except Athens, which got much better

Hospitals In order for us to have 1 of the longest lifespans in the world (life expectancy at birth index) something must be good with them no matter of the organizational mess there in. Im sure we are not a super race that doesnt get sick.

According to UN Sweden is No.5 with 80 years and Greece is No.17 with 79.4. Stupid of us to argue for 7 months.

[1964Byron]

Government Ours is a total mess (as almost always in our 5000 year history) where your gov is in good shape. Rule of every well educated & informed person though, is that politicians are thieves allover the world, no matter what sees the press and what not. Italy changed 60 govs the last 50 years but their economy is ok. Gov is not a magical solution to everything.

[1964Byron]

Salaries Greece ($33074) 20th best per capita income according to International Monetary Fund (28th to World Bank)

Sweden ($36365) 10th best per capita income

and according to UN Greece has the 18th highest (0.94) Human Development Index (standard of living) where Sweden has 7th (0.95) and Germany the 23rd (0.94)

Education according to the UN education index Greece is No10 (0.98) and Sweden is N016 (0.97) My experience as a university educator says both nations have pros & cons.

[1964Byron]

As you see my point was for us being comparable - not best. Best is a utopia for anyone who needs the label for his own insecurities

Sweden had piece for the last 800yrs. WW2 did not touch Sweden. Greece, was totally destroyed. We have this good economy for the last 15yrs. We need a lot of time being rich to accumulate all the wealth Sweden did all these 100s of years and fix our country as a Swiss clock.

But, if the Greeks in 60 years of piece managed to get this high and close then, think

[Aurense]

Greece is not even close to Sweden, and I have lived long enough in both countries to know that.

I know the greeks and I know that there are very good individuals there in Greece who actually try to promote progress for the country. But, as long as the government is THAT corrupted you are not getting anywhere (and people become corrupted too)..not even in 400 years. And, it is not that time stops for Greece to catch up with the rest of Europe.

Correct?

[Aurense]

I know all the info you posted above. Who is providing the survey companies with data you think? is it you? or someone responsible for the image of Greece abroad. I guess it is the government. dunno if you remember how they cooked the GDP when Greece was to enter the EU back then. I know about the greek hospitals, I don't need anyone to present this like it is even close to the european standards.

[Aurense]

nd before you think that the hospitals in Greece are doing fine. you should try to provide your islands with some doctors cuz people die there and they get no help..just a helicopter from athens. I have also studied in a greek university and in an american university and in a swedish university...I have experienced what I am telling..this is no raw data from some organization.

[Aurense]

you wanna talk about the salaries? in Greece they take 700 euros per month (basic salary) and in the best case scenario they get 1000 euros. here they take more than 2300 euros (after taxes). btw I am not a small kid, I have my degrees, my job (maritime logistics) in a big company and my experiences. Some stuff I know first hand. I have also worked in greece..it was not the same! everything was not the same..salaries...attitude...be­nefits...

[1964Byron]

You have master degree in logistics and you ask me whether you should base your judgment in stats? You should know that info on complex subjects as economies doesnt come by asking friends or from personal experiences.

Europe and big organizations that make stats are not stupid to accept anything blindly. Their true standing is proved by cross examinations.

They are banks that loan to countries not survey companies. The stats provide them info on risk and accordingly set the interest.

[Aurense]

I know very well who messes with the statistics and why, I just hoped you should know too as you are an economist. The stats are the tools for your work, but there is a whole plot behind. We already saw what america did to the world by loaning to people (economical crisis)....or were the stats wrongn this case? what mistake did they do to end up with an economical crisis? or was it NOT a mistake, but the purpose?

[1964Byron]

The cooked GDP you referred to was actually a supposingly cooked deficit for entering the EuroZone. EU believed in the validity of the original numbers and was furious over ND party trying to gain voters in Greece exposing an unorthodox accounting method that all EU was using for the last 30 years.

It helps to watch the news sometimes. Euronews had a 10min documentary on the subject back in 2004 and also articles in the Wall Street Journal and the Economist.

[Aurense]

I am glad you now about what Greece did with the GDP. Yeah you mentioned ND, but the whole land took the blame...what blame? they showed a completely different face of Greece..with different economical needs as a country and that surely affected the countries balance in Europe, Even the economical help that Greece takes from EU is being consumed by the Government as we speak.

Let alone other scandals like vatopedi and siemens. Big time!

[1964Byron]

What surprise me though, is perceiving a satisfaction tone (χαιρεκακία) in your writing especially with your statement (not even in 400 years) but thats your business to find out why it happens to you. You sound as if you want it to be that bad and that is sick, even if you are not Greek.

[Aurense]

it is not that I am bad or I am trying to sound a bad-boy. I am just being realistic. I said not even in 400 judging from your government, the national debt, the national infrastructure and the progress the other countries show related to greece. It is not that you should only run fast to come first in a race..you should run faster than the first one. greece is not the leader among the countries in europe.

[1964Byron]

Im not Swedish but I wish the best to Sweden, which I admire for lots of things and mostly for the peaceful character most of Swedes have away from the evil, bashing attitude I see among other people.

[1964Byron]

When I decided to give you some of this info I knew your reaction before hand. I did not expect you to react differently than an American kid that suddenly hears that Iraqi war served monetary gains and had nothing to do with US being the world democracy keeper. Truth (and quality) was always known by a minority and the majority always had difficult time accepting it.

This idea of Greece is deeply implanted in your head, not by your fault and talks in the tube will not change it.

[1964Byron]

This idea, actually, comes mainly by the Greek press that sell their news this way. It is like in the US that a newspaper will not sell if it shows bad news for the country in Greece no paper will sell if it gives good news about the country. In the US academic world they call this (the Americana age). There is already a big discussion in certain high circles in Greece about this media attitude, how much it damages Greece (because it is passed to the people) and how to change it.

[Aurense]

I can see that the greek media may exaggerate most of the times. But as i told you I have actually lived in greece (athens) and I have also lived for shorter time periods in lamia, thessaloniki, veroia, xanthi, patra, kozani...was it just bad luck that I would experience chaos in the public sector almost every day? or that each government that would be elected would steal money from the national fund? Too many mishappenings here...

[1964Byron]

Before I end this, I will just ask you a question following your logic of discussion.

If life in Sweden is that good and everything works as a Swiss clock (and we will need more than 400 years to achieve it) why then does Sweden have the highest suicide rate in the whole world.

If our situation is that bad why dont we suicide more than you do. It would be more logical, no?

Anyway, I wish that your country the best and if there is any room for improvement, to get it soon.

[Aurense]

Sweden is not the country with the highest suicidal rate...last time I checked it was finland.

I also saw greece somewhere in the stats...I can also remember zahopoulos who jumped of the 4th floor because he felt like suiciding cuz he thought this was a fine way to escape being ridiculed by the greek media cuz he was corrupted. You see...corruption and suicide all in one.

Swedes suicide cuz life here is easy,,,which is a quite stupid thing to do, but I somehow know that is possible...

[mackjeez]

Actually Greece is in the 20 lowest worldwide and the second lowest in Europe(Georgia is the least) so I don't know were you get your stats from. Sweden is 35th highest suicide rate per capita which is a bit high but definitely not the highest, Lithuania is # 1 in suicide rate and Finland is 16th. In 2003 we were tied with Germany 15th place as one of the least corrupt country's in the world but since the new democratic party came in to power we dropped to 47th but we will stabilize again I hope

[Aurense]

2003?! This is 2009! Oh come on! I also know that greeks kicked ass back in the days of Pericles....do you also want to refer to those days?

This is 2009, Where is your country now? Good luck stabilizing again...

[mackjeez]

My stats were from 2009 for suicide rate and yes it is much lower 20th lowest, I only stated that in 2003 we were one of the least corrupted country' in the world, obviously that changed when ND party came into power, fortunately there is still a lot of hope, Greece stabilized when they were under worst circumstances...Greece is there and its happening, nightclubs are full, Greek people spend money on Gucci and Armani clothes and their homes aren't foreclosing.

[Aurense]

Yeah..I also know too many greeks that spend their money in Peggy Zena and when they crash their cars do not have money to fix it and they go by bus! I also know many that borrow money for a living. I also know some hundrends that they suck because they have some more money and they buy those Gucci to show of while the person next to them starves to death.

Gucci and Armani...showing off is the name..

[mackjeez]

I agree on the wealthy spending money on clothes but I've seen the "starving" Greeks do the same thing and yes they lend money but doesn't all country's do that, I have a buddy of mine here in Canada that owe's $52000 and he's unemployed, he's went bankrupt 2 times already, the situation is the same everywhere not just Greece, Sweden in # 1 in living maybe that's why you see the situation in Greece so crappy.

[Aurense]

Your buddy may be an exception.....is that thing the general situation there tho'?

cuz I am mostly interested in the main case and not the exceptions. I am not comparing Greece to Sweden. That is pointless and we all know why.

We can only compare similar things....I know Greece's history and all the problems greeks had so far. But, some facts I just cannot accept. The real basic salary for example that was mentioned here....

[mackjeez]

Actually the situation here in Canada and the U.S is horrible in terms of loans, they give them out like candy and people can't pay them back and they do starve, the Ghetto's are awful, I've live in Canada for 3 years and my credit limit is at $38000 that would never happen in Greece and that's a good thing, even if I would agree about the low wages in Greece the standard of living is cheap in comparison with other E.U nations.

[Aurense]

I just find it stupid/unfair for the greeks to pay the same price as we pay here in sweden to buy goods, to rent a house (ok almost the same, it depends on the region), while the basic salary in Greece is lower than it is in Sweden. I am pointing out that Greece should provide ppl with a higher basic salary or lower cost for the basic goods and the rent! Let alone the money they get when they retire....

[mackjeez]

We have an immigration problem in Greece and we can't keep up with job creations, unfortunately employers are taking advantage of this by paying a lower wage to their workers. I agree with you on the retirement problem in Greece, the amount of money the citizens get are insufficient with daily expenses.

[spyrograph]

@mackjeez

ok relax buddy.... Greeks make more money than most americans so cut the dissing...

Also Greece is going through tough times.... but you know what you "AMAZING" country went through difficult economic times just like ours did so shut up and wake up

[mackjeez]

@spyrograph

Wtf are you talking about? You do know I was replying to someone and yes Greeks make more money then most Americans, if you read my comment you would know that. I'm really fucking confused with your comments? What country are you talking about? I'm Greek born and raised I've lived in Canada for 10 years, .

[stone85]

wasn't john stamos' character's name first season's name in full house jesse cochran's before fully changing it to jesse katsopolis