The basic thrust here seems to be that pure ideology doesn't effectively serve situational action. Yet, at the same time, it seems the only way we can approach potential action is through an understanding of the various ideological perspectives and then supposing what the outcome would be, sort of choosing actions based on what would get us closer to an idea. Yet, without an ideology, an ideal doesn't exist. So....hmmm....
This paradaigm is only limited only to the extent that it is "possibly" simplistic. Besides that issue, i think this is a brilliant pilitical paradigm. It's Ken, what do you expect.
@presentlightoftruth Why is every philosopher, scientist and spiritual teacher a false prophet to you christians? Nobody is trying to "prophecize" and nobody is propping themselves up as a savior like you guys are always claiming. Now go listen to Kent Hovind and suck up some more creationist bullshit.
If you are searching for real spiritual informationWant to finally get something different?Unleash your true psychic powers.It is time to take the blindfold off, THE-HIDDEN-SPIRITdotCOM
I somewhat agree...and add: Traditional values and morals matter as much as more liberal values such as mental flexibility, acceptance, creativity, etc.
I like him...no one seems to understand the importance of all of the various perspectives...conservative and liberal perspectives both have merits. To avoid being wishy washy, we can find a way that the integral perspective actually applies.
the first truly third way political party was the Labor party in Australia. When it got into government in the early 1980's it did the market liberalisation that happened under both Reagan and Thatcher in the USA and UK, except because they were interested in both right and left solutions, they were able to maintain the economic safety net while the rapid expansion occurred. Australia now is one of the most prosperous countries in the world and it's due to this type of thinking.
@jhgosnell I wasn't arguing that integral is pathological. I said:
"It troubles me that Ken Wilber actually seems to buy into the idea that 911 was enacted by pockets of reds "out there". "
It was certainly cognitively integral people. If it is their lopsidedness that's the problem, then still it isn't simply "reds".
What troubles me is that Wilber actually buys into the idea that 911 was done by those backward people and not by his very own customers, such as Bill Clinton and his likes.
Integral politics equals a whole load of marketed garbage you can buy with special offers etc; same old shit - empereor = no clothes. Wilber 'I'm not bragging but....' Wake up kids.
Very interesting topic, Integral politics. You can now sit with the world's leading Integral experts and discover life changing answers in a language you easily understand. Take a look at Ask Integral Experts @com
emptyhighways- i agree- i am canadian but i would say the freedoms that we enjoy is the market based freedoms of consumers- not political based freedom of citizens based on mutual reciprocal relationships- where we embed within our dominate paradigms values that reinforce those mutually reciprocal relationships we will manifest real change - i think we naturally are seeking real connection in contrast to these pseudo freedoms of consumerism...
It troubles me that Ken Wilber actually seems to buy into the idea that 911 was enacted by pockets of reds "out there". Not doubt we have them out there, but I would assume that the real terrorism is enacted by people on very pathological branches of second tier who seem to think of themselves as beyond the concerns of those on 1st whom they consider like animals and try to consciously keep on 1st tier.
It is no accident that the US regressed 1-2 notches, rather that was the point !
@LooksAeterna interesting take. to me, it is not likely that terrorists are at 2nd tier. they may speak that way, but it's red i think. i don't see how one can be at 2nd tier and look down on people...by definition, 2nd tier includes the lower levels within it and respects where they are at.
@jhgosnell The reds are certainly involved - at a lower level of power: the Clintons and the Summers and the like.
But I mean some of those you'll never see on TV. From what I am getting to understand about their philosophy is that those whom they consider mere cattle self-select themselves by being easily manipulated. The Eye sees the cusp of human history coming, and the understanding is that not many are going to make it. Stupidity and not seeing the signs marks the cattle as death-bound.
@jhgosnell Speaking of Clinton, BTW, case in point: he is positively aware of the 911 scam, massively participates in promoting and profiting from the official disinfo, and having read Wilber well understands 2nd tier.
Understanding the structure and the necessity of lower rungs on the ladder for you own rung does NOT imply respecting the individuals on the lower rungs. There's few points to be made here even regarding Wilber's own behavior.
@LooksAeterna from integral you respect WHERE people are at in their growth. It doesn't mean that you can't address them though...something they are doing may be causing misery. You get where they are at and it makes sense to you HOW they can see it that way. Still, even at integral, it seems to me that military force and other things may be called into to play...for example, to address red egotism (terrorism perhaps). Healthy 2nd tier should not be pathological...unhealhty versions maybe occur.
@jhgosnell "from integral you respect WHERE people are at in their growth"
I can't remember whether "respect" was part of the definition of 2nd tier, "understand" would probably be sufficient since you can't even do that below 2nd.
Even if "respect" is in it, this would be the case only if the moral line would be on integral. You can be integral cognitively and morally in the stone age. Hence I spoke of pathological 2nd tier.
It troubles me that Ken Wilber actually seems to buy into the idea that 911 was enacted by pockets of reds "out there". Not doubt we have them out there, but I would assume that the real terrorism is enacted by people on very pathological branches of second tier who seem to think of themselves as beyond the concerns of those on 1st whom they consider like animals and try to consciously keep on 1st tier.
It is no accident that the US regressed 1-2 notches, rather that was the point !
@LooksAeterna then, on the moral line you are not at integral. so, it's not integral that is necessarily path., but rather the person's development is lopsided. as an extreme example, Adi Da was mostly at unitive it seems to me, but his moral-sexual line was maybe red-assed as one can get. it's not a problem of unitive as a level of consciousness, but of a lopsided development...it seems to me. that's my take anyway.
@jhgosnell I wasn't arguing that integral is pathological. I said:
"It troubles me that Ken Wilber actually seems to buy into the idea that 911 was enacted by pockets of reds "out there". "
It was certainly cognitively integral people. If it is their lopsidedness that's the problem, then still it isn't simply "reds".
What troubles me is that Wilber actually buys into the idea that 911 was done by those backward people and not by his very own customers, such as Bill Clinton and his likes.
@LooksAeterna I agree here...the lines. We can be very evolved in one line and an idiot in another. That would be path. 2nd tier I think. What a mess!
Impatient old-timers David Rockefeller and Kissinger along with over zealous new-comer Obama are being widely accused of rushing in the New World Order (Global Governance) far too soon, thereby completely wrecking centuries of precise and careful preparation and planning.
Even the latest Lucifer channelings and other highly esteemed satanic occult oracles are suggesting appropriate retribution against these incompetents, now deemed His greatest enemies.
For an otherwise extremely bright person Ken seems to be blind to how ugly and dirty politics really is. Cloud thinks most politicians are sick egoes trying to pass themselves off as blue or orange. Until Ken gets this he will not be effective. It's a shame this is where we need him most.
Perhaps it's more a matter that we're all susceptible to ego, regardless of first tier level. The more addictive egos tend to be the ones that pursue political office for (perceived) personal gain. The point is that self-actualized and transcended individuals should be the ones directing the movement of politics... not merely the first tier memes who vote like-minded people into office.
Very intresting video and text info. I live in Canada, a representative democracy that tries to embrace multiculturalism and plualism. However, the governing paradigm (or center of gravity) is very confined and non-inclusive. In other words, it is a political correctness that is very restrictive. Canadians like to think of themselves as free, yet they are free to follow strictly enforced laws which claim to provide freedom (which often they do, if freedom is seen as a respect for human rights).
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i just wish the muslim world would get its shit together, quit worshipping false idels, and embrace jesus and the american way of life, instead of hating and being jealous of it.
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i am not joking about anything. i did two tours of duty in iraq, and anyone with two bain cells to rub together can see that those people over there are not human, and don't love their children. if they did, they'de be teaching them the good book instead of teaching them communism and how to grow up to be terrorists.
of course saddam is misunderstood. he totally misunderstood how bad we were gonna kick his ass for what he did to the world trade centre. the will of jesus of nazareth transcends all 'memes', transcends the entire spectrum of consciousness, because it is the truth. god bless america!!!
What in the fuck, excuse the language, are you talking about?
Your making a joke. OK, so yeah, Hussein **misunderstood** (heeeheee) we wuz gonna kick his ass! YEAH! USA! USA! USA!
Uhm, well like a said Wilber is a douche bag. His politics make me sick.
He can take his b.s. about me needing to evolve higher spiritually I need to sell-out my political views -which means embracing what I think is evil- and shove up his arrogant, charlatan, intellectual impostor, ass.
He uses Reasoning that is convenient for the USA, but not very many First world countries have only 2 parties. Russia for Example, Britain etc. has more than just 2 or 3 or 4.
What, reality? Stuff running out? How dare you interrupt our reverie with that?! Don't you know that Wilber never runs out of toilet paper? It emerges directly from his subconscious. Just like it would for all of us if we put him in charge. Now go put on the developmental color Ken picked out for you and leave us alone with this...reality!
I remember studying Wilber and I argued that Liberalism was inherently typhonic, and the heart of liberalism is the recognition that we're all self serving.
Also find it funny that in Canada the Liberals are red, the Conservatives are blue and the NDP is orange.
Nonthere, the Europeans were not really riding the Sadam money train, no more so at least than the Americans in breaking sanctions. They see US policy in Iraq as problematic for all sorts of other reasons (e.g. no WMDS, huge civilian casualties, less security not more, loosing the moral high ground in dealing with Russia, winding up the Moslem world etc) i would agree though that either way its got nothing to do with Ken Wilber's color system.
It's too complex to go into in 500 spaces. I won't argue Iraq but look up Christina Rosetti and the oil-for-food scandel before you give Europe a pass. Basically the Europeans have been given a free pass on defense spending for too long and have adopted nuanced appeasement as default. But it doesn't change my opinion that Wilber and his crowd don't seem to make any effort to get at this and instead choose to erect and live in a theoretical world based on emotional appeal rather than facts.
Christina Rosetti - English poet 1830-94 was all I could find. "A free pass on defence spending'? Does that mean too much or too little spending IYHO? There is a big area to be explored between the idiot Washington Hawks and 'appeasement' - would suggest somewhere in there is the right way forward. Otherwise the US, the UK etc will end up the victims of more 'blowback' and the rest of the world will hate us, we wont reach our political goals. We dont need more Iraqs/Vietnams and nor do they!
Claudia Rosett was the reporter who did most on the scandal. My mistake, it was awhile ago. I wont bother with the rest of your screed, I've heard it all before, blowback, they hate us bla bla. The whole thing was supposed to be about Wilber and I thought I was speaking with someone reasonable, but you just want to rant your little lefty rant. Good, go stew on the Daily Kos. I'm done.
What I mean is that, although you and I can disagree, at least we are looking at a complex array of facts and interpreting them, rightly or wrongly. I hope we can agree that the last thing political discourse needs is THIS ivory tower bullshit. I think Ken should go tell Putin "Vlad, you need to be more orange here. I mean, you're just clashing! And Mahmoud? You would look just fabulous in turquois!" I guarantee huge success with this approach.
Couldn't agree more. The thing is, if Ken Wilber was to get out of the ivory tower then he would be as open to critique as the rest of us... the color stuff allows him to float above all knowing (and in the process promote brand Wilber!!) You need to get your hands dirty, be open to criticism to really find solutions but I don't think that appeals to him.
From the Integral Naked website:"over 70% of the world exists at egocentric or ethnocentric waves of development, rendering "one-person-one-vote" types of democracy miserably incapable when it comes to saving the human race from itself...(cont.)
"How, then, can we possibly develop and implement the policies that we so desperately need? This, as Ken mentions, would require something resembling "enlightened leadership," in which an elite body of policy makers, who embody the highest available altitude of human consciousness, are able to make the decisions which simply could not be made at lower levels of development."
"Enlightened leadership" no doubt means Wilber and his friends. Given his known antagonism to criticism the whole thing seems to add up to an authoritarian personality cult. Hell, he's even got a power meter (2% of pop. at yellow w/10% of the power, or something). Ironic that he turns out to be as narcissistic as his own characters in Boomeritis. But that's where he really comes from, so old habits die hard.
Wilber isn't per-per-perfect but I learned from this vid why I'm not conservative or liberal & why I'm not a follower of Wilber or anyone else. You sound like you're a knowledgeable guy but you wouldn't last 5 minutes with Wilber. That stuff about Gandhi & Aurobindo, J Krishnamurti said somewhat the same thing about Gandhi, very critical about behavior behind the scenes... but then again Mr K was not really someone who could talk, but i listened anyway.))
Thanks for the reply. I'm not interested in lasting 5 min. w/Wilber. Anything positive he can contribute is great but reread that quote from his website. Sounds like he wants a Politburo for the cognitive elite. Rocky:"But that trick never works!" Bullwinkle:"This time for sure!!"
I agree. So far, Wilber has acknowledged that he is just a compiler of some stuff that has interesting implications. He thinks it is not his job to get hands dirty with stuff. I must say there are some good stuff in what Wilber preaches. In a way he is a floater, but the integral paradigm as its called is not just about Wilber. And the integral paradigm has been served by Wilber quite well. Perhaps he was misguided about Sri Aurobindo, in a lack of understanding regarding Aurobindo's yoga.
Weather its Russell Brand at the VMA's, Sarah Palin or Ken Wilber - Its clear the USA is in the grip of a big old culture war with no obvious winner or solution. Two very different ideas of what America stands for or what its about. Rural small town America of hockey Mums, Apple Pie, Neighbourliness, Conservative religious values and patriotism vs Liberal, elite, big City, pro-life, urban, progressive view of America (one that perhaps more easily speaks to most Europeans).
I guess this is the new way liberals try to justify their emotionally disturbed politics. Wilber here tries to act like he's balanced but his language, the people in the group, the manner of approaching the matter ("Everybody's scared to DEATH of blue!". Those stupid crazy conservatives) all scream liberal elite. His take on politics is simplistic, childish and narcissistic. Another group of comfortable libs judging the rest from on high. And now they have "developmental colors". Great.
Why is there that in America are just two significant parties? If I were american I would search for other parties to vote for. Like libertarians for example or anything else. To me it seems unsubstantial to have only two parties, it its like they bought their first or second place and thus almost rule together. Like in a show, they seem to be different and create the allusion of choice.
I'm liberal, and vote democrat. I also have a lot of liberal democrat friends, and I don't know one of them that places "the blame" of someone's mis-fortune on the exterior. I think some see that exterior circumstances can contribute to a problem, but it's not the sole reason.
For me, I realize that the environment, plus the "tools" (mental/material) that someone has contribute to where they are. So having a social network to assist those in need is essentail the health of the whole society.
I find Wilber's political descriptions a bit too overgeneralized. Politics go beyond just democrat and republican......I take it he's of the opinion that the moderate way between democrat and republican is the ideal, and yet in reality the republicans and democrats don't differ too significantly. Another important fact is that both parties are really just out to increase their power. What about the libertarians (both socialist and capitalist).
I cant help but feel Ken Wilber should start by doing a degree in the social sciences first... start reading properly, Lacan, Foucault, Zizek, Zigmunt Bauman etc This idea of having an over-arching 'theory of everything' is highly problematic... especially when you end up basing things on colors rather than referencing others much! Some interesting ideas, but when you look closer it kind of falls apart, he is very weak on American foreign policy also.
A little off topic, but search, from Google, A Declaration of the Value of Global Governance. A website by a businesman Steve McIntosh who uses the integral theory for planning a possible post-UN (UN is not a gvernment lol) world government.
Exactly. He's weak on foreign policy, e.g., because it's all symbolic to him. Would he really believe that Europe opposes U.S. foreign policy because they are at the 'higher' color green? Might they have, e.g., opposed the war in Iraq because they were riding Saddam's money train? But all that messy real politik like oil-for-food scandal means nothing to people who live in a Teletubby type world of symbolism and high-flown ideas that have little to do with real lives, except to screw them up.
Wilber takes no moral position on the groups that he describes. He says that he wants to "balance" them. What does that qualify him to be--a consultant to some politician trying to get elected by triangulating various constituencies, who wants to understand those constituencies better in order to manipulate their predjudices? If there were a Hitler group and a Gandhi group, would Wilber be searching for "balance" between them? What would that entail--only half the number of holocaust victims?
One of Wilber's criticisms of the multiculurists is that they aren't able to judge some cultures as better or worse. He's repeated this critique several times, and it's a good one. So it's surprisng that he wouldn't be willing to take moral positions.
I don't know Wilbur's work in general; I was only commenting on this video. Perhaps the video does not represent him well. In this video, he comes off as a pontificator who has an angle on everything but truly cares about nothing. As he is surrounded by adoring sychophants here, perhaps some allowance for the seductive effects of such adoration ought to be made.
Aside from the colors, my other concenrs are 1) that Ken will for the old "Why can't we just have a third party?" crew, who have no idea how the electoral college system works or the history of third parties (hint: they have had VERY little influence), and 2) Ken will naturally be surrounded by leftists, so he'll never get a fair or deep understanding of right of center -- libertarian and conservative -- movements. It's good to see Ken working on this stuff, however.
Ken *is* a serious thinker. However, I'm not sure if the color thing will ever catch on. For one, it sounds a bit, well, just goofy. Two, people already have associations with politics and colors -- e.g., green (environment), blue (Democrat), red (Republican), red (commie), purple (contested state) etc.
Once one realizes that all wars are financed by the same family, one can erase a little dust from their lenses... talk to an unhappy trapped mason and erase a little more... we risk our families lives by trying to tell ANYONE... albeit random... it is the only way to stay safe. READ. yet once the hundredth monkey has awakened from their illusory slumber, darkmen will be powerless.. no one to hold the guns. WE ARE IN HERE< WAITING FOR YOU PEOPLE TO OUT US.
wellborn: Mr. Wilbur has not unveiled the most blatent/omnipresent piece of the political puzzle. That of insidious deception perpetrated by 1% of the population. The followers of Leo Strauss/Nihilist= ALL 33rd degree freemasons: 33rd degree="The Pleidian Rite" where one witnesses the slaying of a 2-4 yr old child as One is forced to take an oath to become "The Glove of Lucifer." To learn to cow the masses an become an Architect of Fear. Which leads one to perpetrate False Flag Operations (911)
i suppose it had something to do with the information that is processed into relived experience. but there could be many other fields this information gets put in. actually, i think it has to be sought elsewhere. so much more past information is accessible in various states that does not very likely come from your dna. or that would expand the role of dna dramatically. maybe it's stored in the stucture of time itself?
I actually think that Christ did teach reincarnation (or at least, that it is in the book). If you read more about Wilber's political view, I think you will change your mind.
Ken seems to take the Faux News stance at face value that the "terrorists" are some "foreign" entity who have a fanatical hatred against "America" and we should fear "them" and "they" are something other than "America". Why is it so difficult for "enlightened" beings to get their arms around the notion that "America" itself is systematically manufacturing "terrorism" in order to have an enemy to conquer in the real showtime capitalist story book of good vs. evil-"America" is the terrorist.
well you know fascism promised to be the "middle path" between liberalism and conservatism. it was a gathering of the values of both the left and right through a "socialist" state coupled with corporate right wing international policy. at present what country seems to be a socialist state mixed with corporate right wing international policies? hmm?
well no, it fits according to certain basic outlines, but you can easily argument for any person to be at least 4 or 5 of these "memes". i certainly agree that it's a very reductionist and arbitrary system, and it does not allow very well for a discussion of truly complex psychocultural issues, in my opinion that is...
yes, that is when we will see. well put. (i think we can get a preview, though, every night, when out subjective experience shuts down and dissolves in sleep. Where do we go?
hi,ddj333 , please read the comments chronologically that are posted here as they are really one comment. I tried to reply to you, but it didn't put the comment under yours. mmm :) I have enjoyed this dialogue. Thank you.
Yes, but what are you pointing at? Please give us more in order to gain a clearer understanding of what you mean. You are right when you say the comments can easily be misunderstood!
Thank you for your comment. I am so glad I got to read it (really) Thank you for taking the time to write it. Please understand, thought is divisive--so your comment is clear. Clear. I point at something figuratively because of this. Ken's comment, unfortunately limited in context, sounds like yellow language from a first tier green mind. Is this accurate? I think in this sentence it is. If he were to speak more it might not be. Is this important to include? Yes. Transcend and include.
Well, integral means that second tier uses all it's resources, including first tier responses, as well - that is, indeed, the "include" part. It's difficult to picture a world in which first tier levels are able to exist as a function of growth without having them trample all over levels beyond them. When he says "enlightened society" has to find a way, surely he realizes that it won't happen tomorrow, and that their is a long road ahead. Still, our own social evolution may hold the answers.
You said this well"...without having them trample all over levels beyond them" What combination of orange/green and yellow countries would give rise to such a quantum leap in a social evolution? (rhetorical) Is it possible to have no red, or blue countries that don't impose their values on others? Yes. Is it possible to have red or blue individuals who do not impose their values as a form of expression on others? I think the answer is no to this second question.
Ken said "people who stop at that station of life" He referred to individuals. Sometimes intelligence only arises from experience(experience can be imposing values as expression on others) and sometimes not at all. Agnosagosia-> Brain damage,an implicit correlative "agnosagnosia, she doesn't know that she doesn't know, just as a wolf or a chimpanzee would not know that it doesn't know how to read or write as it does not have the brain areas which would alert them to this deficit." R Joseph
I agree. I would think intellegence could pretty much ONLY arise from some kind of experience whether it's daily life or a kensho sort of epiphiany. Red may be a different question. There are 'upper blues' (or Amber for Wilber) who still cling to their values but don't necessarilly impose. We can divide the various levels into levels, themselves. People whose center of gravity is at a certain level still fluctuate between the level below and the level above as they transcend.
Levels aren't rigid. And even then they would be 'including' the levels below in their lives having incorporated them much like a set of tools, or a pallete of colors. I think this opens the whole notion of equanimity. See the Wilber video, "Hurts More, Bothers You Less" if you haven't already. It's tough to be patient in the relative realm when civilization is at stake. I suppose we don't have a choice except perhaps to view this with equanimity.
yes. i like the image of the sun at dawn. Its equanimous light covers all things equally, slowly helping everything grow. This light is not a "passive" or "detached" equanimity, but a passionate one, not only FREED from, but also INVOLVED in all things equally.
Part 1 Comment. Near the end of this video Ken Wilber says "The same enlightened society is gonna have to find a way that people who stop at that station of life can stop at that station of life and find some way to express their values but without imposing them on others."
Part 2 Comment: The—nature of red is to impose. Under certain external circumstances the—nature of blue is to impose their values on others. The very nature of those stages is to impose. Impose is an expression. You can train a tiger from a cub to do tricks for humans; to walk around humans without attacking them, but is it still a tiger? No.
Part 3. Comment: If what Ken says could happen ,then how can a person move, or evolve through a stage (color) when it is not really in that color? Integral is a language that allows more intelligent communication. It is nothing more than this. This very fact is amazing in and of itself. I am very happy to have come across Ken's work.
It is also the "me" which says "it's all my fault. I am to blame. WAAAH, Mommy!"
Current institutions of religion and government are not integral. However, so what? Reality is integral. Zenjis have never been much interested in institutions anyway. The internet is way more interesting to me than formal institutions.
I watched the entire video, and I am commenting instead on the description on the top right. There is question of blame ("them" or "me"?). I am a bit surprised that there would be a question of blame on a Ken Wilber video page.
In Zen, the "me" is questioned as in explored, not so much "who to blame." It is the "me" which says "they are to blame (not me)! WAAAH, Daddy!"
Wilber is a genius of developmental studies, but has some naive erroneous zones, especially when discussing politics and economics. He seems to be quite ignorant about the elite corporate class that has pushed economic globalisation, which has had the effect of enriching a relatively few and impoverishing large numbers of people globally.
I would call globalization pathological orange, and definitely NOT a third way. The effect has been to stop growth to green from orange.
Karl Rove may be turquoise on the level of seeing first tier levels and being able to manipulate them, but I would characterize him as red/blue morally.
Ken is using spiral dynamics short hand when he refers to colors. The attendees know the Spiral Dynamics value spheres and the associated color coding. Just so you know.
Oh sure have. Thank you for the luck too by the way. I know as long as I have a 9 inch penis and 2 huge balls I can move forward in my journey of growth and development. Forget all that Ken Wilber and conscious shit, thats all bullshit, lets all have anal sex!
And you're a perfect example of a douche bag with no life. You probably grew up jerking off to cartoon porn while imagining you were really Luke Skywalker fighting off those evil bully's at school with your light saver even though it was too small to even budge. You're just jealous because I have a bigger schlong than you.
mickalene--yellow thinkers have entered second-tier consciousness...this means one is beginning to think horizontally and vertically, recognizing that all the waves of thought (mythic, scientific, pluralist, etc.) are essential to growth and development...less about warring between groups and levels and more about embracing and integrating them all.
Right, but to say that a yellow level person would eat a cheeseburger, when empirical science shows how harmful all the saturated fat is to arterial health seems silly. Why would a higher level want to eat unhealthily in the name of flexibility. You might say that yellow has the flexibility to pollute the earth one day and not pollute it the next!
I'm sure I'm being characterized as a green - and I am basically; I've lived as a turquoise and beyond, but havent' stayed there for reasons I won't go into here. I understand that second tier recognizes the value of healthy green values, but is not locked into them as rigid dogma or belief; in certain circumstances it is flex-able, which is more integral understanding and behavior.
Sorry, but Alexander Hamilton was not an "orange" thinker. Hamilton he was a true blue advocate of the aristocracy who wanted George Washington to be President for life. Though Jefferson maintained his slaves during his life, he freed them at death, so he can not be called a strictly "blue" thinker. This notion of reducing people to colors is the sand in the massage cream of Wilber's systematic catagorizations.
This makes sense. I like what this guy is saying. And I like more the fact that he's neutral and not biased to one side or another. Means he can give a lot more useful information without skewing it.
He's got a very good point and it also applies a lot to anger in the comments you see on YouTube, a lot of them are coming from blue and red that blame everyone that upload stuff and are derided by orange and green that wants to let everything hang out. There should be a balance on both sides where they can stop at their station in life and not try to impose their views on each other.
hiya jemand deutsch
LaiTinycx636 3 months ago
nun mein hintern ist geil
ClydeLavonxd538 3 months ago
The basic thrust here seems to be that pure ideology doesn't effectively serve situational action. Yet, at the same time, it seems the only way we can approach potential action is through an understanding of the various ideological perspectives and then supposing what the outcome would be, sort of choosing actions based on what would get us closer to an idea. Yet, without an ideology, an ideal doesn't exist. So....hmmm....
MrPisster 4 months ago
This paradaigm is only limited only to the extent that it is "possibly" simplistic. Besides that issue, i think this is a brilliant pilitical paradigm. It's Ken, what do you expect.
SuperVinceism 6 months ago
@presentlightoftruth Why is every philosopher, scientist and spiritual teacher a false prophet to you christians? Nobody is trying to "prophecize" and nobody is propping themselves up as a savior like you guys are always claiming. Now go listen to Kent Hovind and suck up some more creationist bullshit.
DemonHermit 7 months ago
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VivianFoster 8 months ago
I somewhat agree...and add: Traditional values and morals matter as much as more liberal values such as mental flexibility, acceptance, creativity, etc.
jhgosnell 8 months ago
I like him...no one seems to understand the importance of all of the various perspectives...conservative and liberal perspectives both have merits. To avoid being wishy washy, we can find a way that the integral perspective actually applies.
jhgosnell 11 months ago
the first truly third way political party was the Labor party in Australia. When it got into government in the early 1980's it did the market liberalisation that happened under both Reagan and Thatcher in the USA and UK, except because they were interested in both right and left solutions, they were able to maintain the economic safety net while the rapid expansion occurred. Australia now is one of the most prosperous countries in the world and it's due to this type of thinking.
richspur2004 1 year ago
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@jhgosnell I wasn't arguing that integral is pathological. I said:
"It troubles me that Ken Wilber actually seems to buy into the idea that 911 was enacted by pockets of reds "out there". "
It was certainly cognitively integral people. If it is their lopsidedness that's the problem, then still it isn't simply "reds".
What troubles me is that Wilber actually buys into the idea that 911 was done by those backward people and not by his very own customers, such as Bill Clinton and his likes.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
Integral politics equals a whole load of marketed garbage you can buy with special offers etc; same old shit - empereor = no clothes. Wilber 'I'm not bragging but....' Wake up kids.
parannoyance 1 year ago
Very interesting topic, Integral politics. You can now sit with the world's leading Integral experts and discover life changing answers in a language you easily understand. Take a look at Ask Integral Experts @com
ElliotPinkney 1 year ago
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ElliotPinkney 1 year ago
lord jesus come and take the people to new heavens!
bass109 1 year ago
emptyhighways- i agree- i am canadian but i would say the freedoms that we enjoy is the market based freedoms of consumers- not political based freedom of citizens based on mutual reciprocal relationships- where we embed within our dominate paradigms values that reinforce those mutually reciprocal relationships we will manifest real change - i think we naturally are seeking real connection in contrast to these pseudo freedoms of consumerism...
CandianBear 1 year ago
It troubles me that Ken Wilber actually seems to buy into the idea that 911 was enacted by pockets of reds "out there". Not doubt we have them out there, but I would assume that the real terrorism is enacted by people on very pathological branches of second tier who seem to think of themselves as beyond the concerns of those on 1st whom they consider like animals and try to consciously keep on 1st tier.
It is no accident that the US regressed 1-2 notches, rather that was the point !
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@LooksAeterna interesting take. to me, it is not likely that terrorists are at 2nd tier. they may speak that way, but it's red i think. i don't see how one can be at 2nd tier and look down on people...by definition, 2nd tier includes the lower levels within it and respects where they are at.
jhgosnell 1 year ago
@jhgosnell The reds are certainly involved - at a lower level of power: the Clintons and the Summers and the like.
But I mean some of those you'll never see on TV. From what I am getting to understand about their philosophy is that those whom they consider mere cattle self-select themselves by being easily manipulated. The Eye sees the cusp of human history coming, and the understanding is that not many are going to make it. Stupidity and not seeing the signs marks the cattle as death-bound.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@jhgosnell Speaking of Clinton, BTW, case in point: he is positively aware of the 911 scam, massively participates in promoting and profiting from the official disinfo, and having read Wilber well understands 2nd tier.
Understanding the structure and the necessity of lower rungs on the ladder for you own rung does NOT imply respecting the individuals on the lower rungs. There's few points to be made here even regarding Wilber's own behavior.
2nd tier by no means means "unpathological".
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@LooksAeterna from integral you respect WHERE people are at in their growth. It doesn't mean that you can't address them though...something they are doing may be causing misery. You get where they are at and it makes sense to you HOW they can see it that way. Still, even at integral, it seems to me that military force and other things may be called into to play...for example, to address red egotism (terrorism perhaps). Healthy 2nd tier should not be pathological...unhealhty versions maybe occur.
jhgosnell 1 year ago
@jhgosnell "from integral you respect WHERE people are at in their growth"
I can't remember whether "respect" was part of the definition of 2nd tier, "understand" would probably be sufficient since you can't even do that below 2nd.
Even if "respect" is in it, this would be the case only if the moral line would be on integral. You can be integral cognitively and morally in the stone age. Hence I spoke of pathological 2nd tier.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
(contd.)
It troubles me that Ken Wilber actually seems to buy into the idea that 911 was enacted by pockets of reds "out there". Not doubt we have them out there, but I would assume that the real terrorism is enacted by people on very pathological branches of second tier who seem to think of themselves as beyond the concerns of those on 1st whom they consider like animals and try to consciously keep on 1st tier.
It is no accident that the US regressed 1-2 notches, rather that was the point !
LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@LooksAeterna then, on the moral line you are not at integral. so, it's not integral that is necessarily path., but rather the person's development is lopsided. as an extreme example, Adi Da was mostly at unitive it seems to me, but his moral-sexual line was maybe red-assed as one can get. it's not a problem of unitive as a level of consciousness, but of a lopsided development...it seems to me. that's my take anyway.
jhgosnell 1 year ago
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@jhgosnell I wasn't arguing that integral is pathological. I said:
"It troubles me that Ken Wilber actually seems to buy into the idea that 911 was enacted by pockets of reds "out there". "
It was certainly cognitively integral people. If it is their lopsidedness that's the problem, then still it isn't simply "reds".
What troubles me is that Wilber actually buys into the idea that 911 was done by those backward people and not by his very own customers, such as Bill Clinton and his likes.
LooksAeterna 1 year ago 6
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LooksAeterna 1 year ago
@LooksAeterna I agree here...the lines. We can be very evolved in one line and an idiot in another. That would be path. 2nd tier I think. What a mess!
jhgosnell 6 months ago
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YouTubbyComma 1 year ago
Ha, the Supreme Court caught Kansas causing trouble.
SlimD11 2 years ago
Impatient old-timers David Rockefeller and Kissinger along with over zealous new-comer Obama are being widely accused of rushing in the New World Order (Global Governance) far too soon, thereby completely wrecking centuries of precise and careful preparation and planning.
Even the latest Lucifer channelings and other highly esteemed satanic occult oracles are suggesting appropriate retribution against these incompetents, now deemed His greatest enemies.
HenryRage 2 years ago
For an otherwise extremely bright person Ken seems to be blind to how ugly and dirty politics really is. Cloud thinks most politicians are sick egoes trying to pass themselves off as blue or orange. Until Ken gets this he will not be effective. It's a shame this is where we need him most.
CloudshadowMan1 2 years ago
Perhaps it's more a matter that we're all susceptible to ego, regardless of first tier level. The more addictive egos tend to be the ones that pursue political office for (perceived) personal gain. The point is that self-actualized and transcended individuals should be the ones directing the movement of politics... not merely the first tier memes who vote like-minded people into office.
kennedy442 2 years ago
Great clarity....great video
linsmca 2 years ago
Very intresting video and text info. I live in Canada, a representative democracy that tries to embrace multiculturalism and plualism. However, the governing paradigm (or center of gravity) is very confined and non-inclusive. In other words, it is a political correctness that is very restrictive. Canadians like to think of themselves as free, yet they are free to follow strictly enforced laws which claim to provide freedom (which often they do, if freedom is seen as a respect for human rights).
emptyhighways 2 years ago 5
I agree with your accurate and big-picture sentiment, emptyhighways.
MaBu888 2 years ago
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i just wish the muslim world would get its shit together, quit worshipping false idels, and embrace jesus and the american way of life, instead of hating and being jealous of it.
praise the lord, and god bless america.
annefranksdiarrhoea 2 years ago
No. May god whoever you think he is bless all the universes ya noob. :)
Had to.
MaBu888 2 years ago
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i am not joking about anything. i did two tours of duty in iraq, and anyone with two bain cells to rub together can see that those people over there are not human, and don't love their children. if they did, they'de be teaching them the good book instead of teaching them communism and how to grow up to be terrorists.
annefranksdiarrhoea 2 years ago
of course saddam is misunderstood. he totally misunderstood how bad we were gonna kick his ass for what he did to the world trade centre. the will of jesus of nazareth transcends all 'memes', transcends the entire spectrum of consciousness, because it is the truth. god bless america!!!
annefranksdiarrhoea 2 years ago
What in the fuck, excuse the language, are you talking about?
Your making a joke. OK, so yeah, Hussein **misunderstood** (heeeheee) we wuz gonna kick his ass! YEAH! USA! USA! USA!
Uhm, well like a said Wilber is a douche bag. His politics make me sick.
He can take his b.s. about me needing to evolve higher spiritually I need to sell-out my political views -which means embracing what I think is evil- and shove up his arrogant, charlatan, intellectual impostor, ass.
S2Cents 2 years ago
are you trolling or what lol
seigneurvoland666 2 years ago
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annefranksdiarrhoea 2 years ago
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annefranksdiarrhoea 2 years ago
I have NEVER heard ANYBODY say "Saddam Hussein is misunderstood". Wilber makes strawmen of everybody (but seemingly left-leaning activists the most).
S2Cents 2 years ago
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annefranksdiarrhoea 2 years ago
He uses Reasoning that is convenient for the USA, but not very many First world countries have only 2 parties. Russia for Example, Britain etc. has more than just 2 or 3 or 4.
WisdomThroughLogic 2 years ago
Wow Ken Wilber has trouble practicing compassion with "1st tier." I gota take it easy on myself...
alanross999 3 years ago
If he had trouble with practicing compassion with 1st tier, he would do something worse...
MaBu888 3 years ago
This thought should be taught in schools..
thanks!
ierogamos 3 years ago
Chelsea is too cool for school!!:)
dude132132 3 years ago
Evan is Awesome as Fuck!
chelseamae11 3 years ago
Chelsea is Epic as Fuck!
dude132132 3 years ago
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chelseamae11 3 years ago
This is interesting, especially 3rd way reasoning. You have to laugh when you hear about "political types" as opposed to
"spiritual types". This country is
devolving & unraveling economically.
Ppl get political when it hits them personally. Peak oil is bad, what about
peak industrial metals? Lithium batteries
for cars? Great, how much lithium is there? Silver is a key industrial metal. How much silver is left? Not much. It's too late
to get political when you're unemployed.
danger0usknowledge 3 years ago
What, reality? Stuff running out? How dare you interrupt our reverie with that?! Don't you know that Wilber never runs out of toilet paper? It emerges directly from his subconscious. Just like it would for all of us if we put him in charge. Now go put on the developmental color Ken picked out for you and leave us alone with this...reality!
nonthere 3 years ago
Nanotherapy-toilet paper from the unconscious.)
Monsters from the id...
danger0usknowledge 3 years ago
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gamejunkie4595 3 years ago
Right On the money Video!
apks2004 3 years ago
I remember studying Wilber and I argued that Liberalism was inherently typhonic, and the heart of liberalism is the recognition that we're all self serving.
Also find it funny that in Canada the Liberals are red, the Conservatives are blue and the NDP is orange.
brokennarcissist 3 years ago
Nonthere, the Europeans were not really riding the Sadam money train, no more so at least than the Americans in breaking sanctions. They see US policy in Iraq as problematic for all sorts of other reasons (e.g. no WMDS, huge civilian casualties, less security not more, loosing the moral high ground in dealing with Russia, winding up the Moslem world etc) i would agree though that either way its got nothing to do with Ken Wilber's color system.
willhum 3 years ago
It's too complex to go into in 500 spaces. I won't argue Iraq but look up Christina Rosetti and the oil-for-food scandel before you give Europe a pass. Basically the Europeans have been given a free pass on defense spending for too long and have adopted nuanced appeasement as default. But it doesn't change my opinion that Wilber and his crowd don't seem to make any effort to get at this and instead choose to erect and live in a theoretical world based on emotional appeal rather than facts.
nonthere 3 years ago
Christina Rosetti - English poet 1830-94 was all I could find. "A free pass on defence spending'? Does that mean too much or too little spending IYHO? There is a big area to be explored between the idiot Washington Hawks and 'appeasement' - would suggest somewhere in there is the right way forward. Otherwise the US, the UK etc will end up the victims of more 'blowback' and the rest of the world will hate us, we wont reach our political goals. We dont need more Iraqs/Vietnams and nor do they!
willhum 3 years ago
Claudia Rosett was the reporter who did most on the scandal. My mistake, it was awhile ago. I wont bother with the rest of your screed, I've heard it all before, blowback, they hate us bla bla. The whole thing was supposed to be about Wilber and I thought I was speaking with someone reasonable, but you just want to rant your little lefty rant. Good, go stew on the Daily Kos. I'm done.
nonthere 3 years ago
Oh, my mistake mate... fire away on Wilber if you like.. I'm all ears.
willhum 3 years ago
What I mean is that, although you and I can disagree, at least we are looking at a complex array of facts and interpreting them, rightly or wrongly. I hope we can agree that the last thing political discourse needs is THIS ivory tower bullshit. I think Ken should go tell Putin "Vlad, you need to be more orange here. I mean, you're just clashing! And Mahmoud? You would look just fabulous in turquois!" I guarantee huge success with this approach.
nonthere 3 years ago
Couldn't agree more. The thing is, if Ken Wilber was to get out of the ivory tower then he would be as open to critique as the rest of us... the color stuff allows him to float above all knowing (and in the process promote brand Wilber!!) You need to get your hands dirty, be open to criticism to really find solutions but I don't think that appeals to him.
willhum 3 years ago
It's not likely he will. And it's even worse.
From the Integral Naked website:"over 70% of the world exists at egocentric or ethnocentric waves of development, rendering "one-person-one-vote" types of democracy miserably incapable when it comes to saving the human race from itself...(cont.)
nonthere 3 years ago
"How, then, can we possibly develop and implement the policies that we so desperately need? This, as Ken mentions, would require something resembling "enlightened leadership," in which an elite body of policy makers, who embody the highest available altitude of human consciousness, are able to make the decisions which simply could not be made at lower levels of development."
nonthere 3 years ago
"Enlightened leadership" no doubt means Wilber and his friends. Given his known antagonism to criticism the whole thing seems to add up to an authoritarian personality cult. Hell, he's even got a power meter (2% of pop. at yellow w/10% of the power, or something). Ironic that he turns out to be as narcissistic as his own characters in Boomeritis. But that's where he really comes from, so old habits die hard.
nonthere 3 years ago
danger0usknowledge 3 years ago
Thanks for the reply. I'm not interested in lasting 5 min. w/Wilber. Anything positive he can contribute is great but reread that quote from his website. Sounds like he wants a Politburo for the cognitive elite. Rocky:"But that trick never works!" Bullwinkle:"This time for sure!!"
nonthere 3 years ago
I agree. So far, Wilber has acknowledged that he is just a compiler of some stuff that has interesting implications. He thinks it is not his job to get hands dirty with stuff. I must say there are some good stuff in what Wilber preaches. In a way he is a floater, but the integral paradigm as its called is not just about Wilber. And the integral paradigm has been served by Wilber quite well. Perhaps he was misguided about Sri Aurobindo, in a lack of understanding regarding Aurobindo's yoga.
MaBu888 3 years ago
Weather its Russell Brand at the VMA's, Sarah Palin or Ken Wilber - Its clear the USA is in the grip of a big old culture war with no obvious winner or solution. Two very different ideas of what America stands for or what its about. Rural small town America of hockey Mums, Apple Pie, Neighbourliness, Conservative religious values and patriotism vs Liberal, elite, big City, pro-life, urban, progressive view of America (one that perhaps more easily speaks to most Europeans).
willhum 3 years ago
I guess this is the new way liberals try to justify their emotionally disturbed politics. Wilber here tries to act like he's balanced but his language, the people in the group, the manner of approaching the matter ("Everybody's scared to DEATH of blue!". Those stupid crazy conservatives) all scream liberal elite. His take on politics is simplistic, childish and narcissistic. Another group of comfortable libs judging the rest from on high. And now they have "developmental colors". Great.
nonthere 3 years ago
Why is there that in America are just two significant parties? If I were american I would search for other parties to vote for. Like libertarians for example or anything else. To me it seems unsubstantial to have only two parties, it its like they bought their first or second place and thus almost rule together. Like in a show, they seem to be different and create the allusion of choice.
eydos 3 years ago
I'm liberal, and vote democrat. I also have a lot of liberal democrat friends, and I don't know one of them that places "the blame" of someone's mis-fortune on the exterior. I think some see that exterior circumstances can contribute to a problem, but it's not the sole reason.
For me, I realize that the environment, plus the "tools" (mental/material) that someone has contribute to where they are. So having a social network to assist those in need is essentail the health of the whole society.
chiptricks 3 years ago
I find Wilber's political descriptions a bit too overgeneralized. Politics go beyond just democrat and republican......I take it he's of the opinion that the moderate way between democrat and republican is the ideal, and yet in reality the republicans and democrats don't differ too significantly. Another important fact is that both parties are really just out to increase their power. What about the libertarians (both socialist and capitalist).
silverbackman 3 years ago
I cant help but feel Ken Wilber should start by doing a degree in the social sciences first... start reading properly, Lacan, Foucault, Zizek, Zigmunt Bauman etc This idea of having an over-arching 'theory of everything' is highly problematic... especially when you end up basing things on colors rather than referencing others much! Some interesting ideas, but when you look closer it kind of falls apart, he is very weak on American foreign policy also.
willhum 3 years ago
A little off topic, but search, from Google, A Declaration of the Value of Global Governance. A website by a businesman Steve McIntosh who uses the integral theory for planning a possible post-UN (UN is not a gvernment lol) world government.
MaBu888 3 years ago
Exactly. He's weak on foreign policy, e.g., because it's all symbolic to him. Would he really believe that Europe opposes U.S. foreign policy because they are at the 'higher' color green? Might they have, e.g., opposed the war in Iraq because they were riding Saddam's money train? But all that messy real politik like oil-for-food scandal means nothing to people who live in a Teletubby type world of symbolism and high-flown ideas that have little to do with real lives, except to screw them up.
nonthere 3 years ago
this is simply mystic humbug
mrfatd 3 years ago
Wilber takes no moral position on the groups that he describes. He says that he wants to "balance" them. What does that qualify him to be--a consultant to some politician trying to get elected by triangulating various constituencies, who wants to understand those constituencies better in order to manipulate their predjudices? If there were a Hitler group and a Gandhi group, would Wilber be searching for "balance" between them? What would that entail--only half the number of holocaust victims?
collectivity 3 years ago
One of Wilber's criticisms of the multiculurists is that they aren't able to judge some cultures as better or worse. He's repeated this critique several times, and it's a good one. So it's surprisng that he wouldn't be willing to take moral positions.
SwamyMaximus 3 years ago
I don't know Wilbur's work in general; I was only commenting on this video. Perhaps the video does not represent him well. In this video, he comes off as a pontificator who has an angle on everything but truly cares about nothing. As he is surrounded by adoring sychophants here, perhaps some allowance for the seductive effects of such adoration ought to be made.
collectivity 3 years ago
Read his books.
MaBu888 3 years ago
Aside from the colors, my other concenrs are 1) that Ken will for the old "Why can't we just have a third party?" crew, who have no idea how the electoral college system works or the history of third parties (hint: they have had VERY little influence), and 2) Ken will naturally be surrounded by leftists, so he'll never get a fair or deep understanding of right of center -- libertarian and conservative -- movements. It's good to see Ken working on this stuff, however.
SwamyMaximus 3 years ago
Ken *is* a serious thinker. However, I'm not sure if the color thing will ever catch on. For one, it sounds a bit, well, just goofy. Two, people already have associations with politics and colors -- e.g., green (environment), blue (Democrat), red (Republican), red (commie), purple (contested state) etc.
SwamyMaximus 3 years ago
The colors in the integral case have no correlation with anything, just random, and for some reason, Wilber changed some of them in his books.
MaBu888 3 years ago
Ken Wilber is just a poser, not a real thinker.
minztee23 3 years ago
. . .
MaBu888 3 years ago
What do you think qualifies as a "real thinker"?
ddj333 3 years ago
the quality of his (or her) thoughts, of course^^
minztee23 3 years ago
Did you read his books? Can you be specific? If not, then the issue is still open LOL.
MaBu888 3 years ago
Once one realizes that all wars are financed by the same family, one can erase a little dust from their lenses... talk to an unhappy trapped mason and erase a little more... we risk our families lives by trying to tell ANYONE... albeit random... it is the only way to stay safe. READ. yet once the hundredth monkey has awakened from their illusory slumber, darkmen will be powerless.. no one to hold the guns. WE ARE IN HERE< WAITING FOR YOU PEOPLE TO OUT US.
jicken 3 years ago
wellborn: Mr. Wilbur has not unveiled the most blatent/omnipresent piece of the political puzzle. That of insidious deception perpetrated by 1% of the population. The followers of Leo Strauss/Nihilist= ALL 33rd degree freemasons: 33rd degree="The Pleidian Rite" where one witnesses the slaying of a 2-4 yr old child as One is forced to take an oath to become "The Glove of Lucifer." To learn to cow the masses an become an Architect of Fear. Which leads one to perpetrate False Flag Operations (911)
jicken 3 years ago
i suppose it had something to do with the information that is processed into relived experience. but there could be many other fields this information gets put in. actually, i think it has to be sought elsewhere. so much more past information is accessible in various states that does not very likely come from your dna. or that would expand the role of dna dramatically. maybe it's stored in the stucture of time itself?
richidpraah 3 years ago
I actually think that Christ did teach reincarnation (or at least, that it is in the book). If you read more about Wilber's political view, I think you will change your mind.
davidtitterington 3 years ago
Ken seems to take the Faux News stance at face value that the "terrorists" are some "foreign" entity who have a fanatical hatred against "America" and we should fear "them" and "they" are something other than "America". Why is it so difficult for "enlightened" beings to get their arms around the notion that "America" itself is systematically manufacturing "terrorism" in order to have an enemy to conquer in the real showtime capitalist story book of good vs. evil-"America" is the terrorist.
sunvoltage 3 years ago
well you know fascism promised to be the "middle path" between liberalism and conservatism. it was a gathering of the values of both the left and right through a "socialist" state coupled with corporate right wing international policy. at present what country seems to be a socialist state mixed with corporate right wing international policies? hmm?
iaeruo 4 years ago
well no, it fits according to certain basic outlines, but you can easily argument for any person to be at least 4 or 5 of these "memes". i certainly agree that it's a very reductionist and arbitrary system, and it does not allow very well for a discussion of truly complex psychocultural issues, in my opinion that is...
richidpraah 4 years ago
we will see at the internal subjective experience of the shutdown of the nervous system at death, won't we?
richidpraah 4 years ago
yes, that is when we will see. well put. (i think we can get a preview, though, every night, when out subjective experience shuts down and dissolves in sleep. Where do we go?
davidtitterington 3 years ago
hi,ddj333 , please read the comments chronologically that are posted here as they are really one comment. I tried to reply to you, but it didn't put the comment under yours. mmm :) I have enjoyed this dialogue. Thank you.
greenalphabet 4 years ago
I know what you mean! Evidently, You Tube never really intended this to be a forum...
Thanks!
ddj333 4 years ago
The comments below can easily be misunderstood. I am not advocating for red or blue or yellow, or turquiouse. I am merely pointing at something.
greenalphabet 4 years ago
Yes, but what are you pointing at? Please give us more in order to gain a clearer understanding of what you mean. You are right when you say the comments can easily be misunderstood!
ddj333 4 years ago
Thank you for your comment. I am so glad I got to read it (really) Thank you for taking the time to write it. Please understand, thought is divisive--so your comment is clear. Clear. I point at something figuratively because of this. Ken's comment, unfortunately limited in context, sounds like yellow language from a first tier green mind. Is this accurate? I think in this sentence it is. If he were to speak more it might not be. Is this important to include? Yes. Transcend and include.
greenalphabet 4 years ago
Well, integral means that second tier uses all it's resources, including first tier responses, as well - that is, indeed, the "include" part. It's difficult to picture a world in which first tier levels are able to exist as a function of growth without having them trample all over levels beyond them. When he says "enlightened society" has to find a way, surely he realizes that it won't happen tomorrow, and that their is a long road ahead. Still, our own social evolution may hold the answers.
ddj333 4 years ago
You said this well"...without having them trample all over levels beyond them" What combination of orange/green and yellow countries would give rise to such a quantum leap in a social evolution? (rhetorical) Is it possible to have no red, or blue countries that don't impose their values on others? Yes. Is it possible to have red or blue individuals who do not impose their values as a form of expression on others? I think the answer is no to this second question.
greenalphabet 4 years ago
Ken said "people who stop at that station of life" He referred to individuals. Sometimes intelligence only arises from experience(experience can be imposing values as expression on others) and sometimes not at all. Agnosagosia-> Brain damage,an implicit correlative "agnosagnosia, she doesn't know that she doesn't know, just as a wolf or a chimpanzee would not know that it doesn't know how to read or write as it does not have the brain areas which would alert them to this deficit." R Joseph
greenalphabet 4 years ago
I agree. I would think intellegence could pretty much ONLY arise from some kind of experience whether it's daily life or a kensho sort of epiphiany. Red may be a different question. There are 'upper blues' (or Amber for Wilber) who still cling to their values but don't necessarilly impose. We can divide the various levels into levels, themselves. People whose center of gravity is at a certain level still fluctuate between the level below and the level above as they transcend.
ddj333 4 years ago
Levels aren't rigid. And even then they would be 'including' the levels below in their lives having incorporated them much like a set of tools, or a pallete of colors. I think this opens the whole notion of equanimity. See the Wilber video, "Hurts More, Bothers You Less" if you haven't already. It's tough to be patient in the relative realm when civilization is at stake. I suppose we don't have a choice except perhaps to view this with equanimity.
ddj333 4 years ago
yes. i like the image of the sun at dawn. Its equanimous light covers all things equally, slowly helping everything grow. This light is not a "passive" or "detached" equanimity, but a passionate one, not only FREED from, but also INVOLVED in all things equally.
davidtitterington 3 years ago
Part 1 Comment. Near the end of this video Ken Wilber says "The same enlightened society is gonna have to find a way that people who stop at that station of life can stop at that station of life and find some way to express their values but without imposing them on others."
greenalphabet 4 years ago
Part 2 Comment: The—nature of red is to impose. Under certain external circumstances the—nature of blue is to impose their values on others. The very nature of those stages is to impose. Impose is an expression. You can train a tiger from a cub to do tricks for humans; to walk around humans without attacking them, but is it still a tiger? No.
greenalphabet 4 years ago
Part 3. Comment: If what Ken says could happen ,then how can a person move, or evolve through a stage (color) when it is not really in that color? Integral is a language that allows more intelligent communication. It is nothing more than this. This very fact is amazing in and of itself. I am very happy to have come across Ken's work.
greenalphabet 4 years ago
I said
"Integral is a language that allows more intelligent communication. It is nothing more than this."
I say this because only as I realize it is nothing more—it is more.
greenalphabet 4 years ago
It is also the "me" which says "it's all my fault. I am to blame. WAAAH, Mommy!"
Current institutions of religion and government are not integral. However, so what? Reality is integral. Zenjis have never been much interested in institutions anyway. The internet is way more interesting to me than formal institutions.
144jr144 4 years ago
hell yea on that last point. the internet teaches me as much if not more than school! the internet is integral.
mercurius0 4 years ago
I watched the entire video, and I am commenting instead on the description on the top right. There is question of blame ("them" or "me"?). I am a bit surprised that there would be a question of blame on a Ken Wilber video page.
In Zen, the "me" is questioned as in explored, not so much "who to blame." It is the "me" which says "they are to blame (not me)! WAAAH, Daddy!"
144jr144 4 years ago
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boxybrown44 4 years ago
I really enjoyed this. Attending the 2000 GOP convention was an enlightening experience.
I was in awe at the complexity and vast differences within the party and found this video helpful in considering the experience in retrospect ...
kesmit3 4 years ago
Wilber is a genius of developmental studies, but has some naive erroneous zones, especially when discussing politics and economics. He seems to be quite ignorant about the elite corporate class that has pushed economic globalisation, which has had the effect of enriching a relatively few and impoverishing large numbers of people globally.
I would call globalization pathological orange, and definitely NOT a third way. The effect has been to stop growth to green from orange.
racetoinfinity 4 years ago 2
Karl Rove may be turquoise on the level of seeing first tier levels and being able to manipulate them, but I would characterize him as red/blue morally.
racetoinfinity 4 years ago
Ken Wilbur, cool name! Please view searchword wilburjr-thanks.
wilburjr 4 years ago
What does anyone think of what is going on in Bangladesh now? The emergence is happening.
LisaTerra 4 years ago
Half brilliant, half mush. And silly Boulderites don't know the difference anyway :)
malthust 4 years ago
Ken is using spiral dynamics short hand when he refers to colors. The attendees know the Spiral Dynamics value spheres and the associated color coding. Just so you know.
emilesland 4 years ago
sclock2--good luck with your own journey of growth and development...hope you've brought lots of water
KookyKosmos 4 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Oh sure have. Thank you for the luck too by the way. I know as long as I have a 9 inch penis and 2 huge balls I can move forward in my journey of growth and development. Forget all that Ken Wilber and conscious shit, thats all bullshit, lets all have anal sex!
sclock2 4 years ago
Your a perfect example of a red meme.
emilesland 4 years ago
And you're a perfect example of a douche bag with no life. You probably grew up jerking off to cartoon porn while imagining you were really Luke Skywalker fighting off those evil bully's at school with your light saver even though it was too small to even budge. You're just jealous because I have a bigger schlong than you.
sclock2 4 years ago
mickalene--yellow thinkers have entered second-tier consciousness...this means one is beginning to think horizontally and vertically, recognizing that all the waves of thought (mythic, scientific, pluralist, etc.) are essential to growth and development...less about warring between groups and levels and more about embracing and integrating them all.
KookyKosmos 4 years ago
Thanks for the info.
mickalene 4 years ago
Right, but to say that a yellow level person would eat a cheeseburger, when empirical science shows how harmful all the saturated fat is to arterial health seems silly. Why would a higher level want to eat unhealthily in the name of flexibility. You might say that yellow has the flexibility to pollute the earth one day and not pollute it the next!
racetoinfinity 4 years ago
I'm sure I'm being characterized as a green - and I am basically; I've lived as a turquoise and beyond, but havent' stayed there for reasons I won't go into here. I understand that second tier recognizes the value of healthy green values, but is not locked into them as rigid dogma or belief; in certain circumstances it is flex-able, which is more integral understanding and behavior.
racetoinfinity 4 years ago
i agree. i think he's just making a point. as ram dass says "freedom means there is nowhere to stand, and there is nowhere not to stand."
davidtitterington 4 years ago
i've heard him talk about yellowthinkers-what does that signify?
mickalene 4 years ago
That your a penis head.
sclock2 4 years ago
have always suspected as much...
mickalene 4 years ago
Look up spiral dynamics to learn the color codes for value spheres.
emilesland 4 years ago
Sorry, but Alexander Hamilton was not an "orange" thinker. Hamilton he was a true blue advocate of the aristocracy who wanted George Washington to be President for life. Though Jefferson maintained his slaves during his life, he freed them at death, so he can not be called a strictly "blue" thinker. This notion of reducing people to colors is the sand in the massage cream of Wilber's systematic catagorizations.
DonkeyofHeaven 4 years ago
Thanks to Integral Network & Ken Wilber for the great value offered here. I'm very grateful for this.
NitnitNameerf 4 years ago
Gees, how eloquent! I couldn't have said it better myself.
verotte01 4 years ago
This makes sense. I like what this guy is saying. And I like more the fact that he's neutral and not biased to one side or another. Means he can give a lot more useful information without skewing it.
sudowoodonumbers 4 years ago
interesting - why is the US not the best example of a country already fitting this mold?
alanmccann 5 years ago
Great summary.
gurtles 5 years ago
Brilliant as always!
geopie55555 5 years ago
He's got a very good point and it also applies a lot to anger in the comments you see on YouTube, a lot of them are coming from blue and red that blame everyone that upload stuff and are derided by orange and green that wants to let everything hang out. There should be a balance on both sides where they can stop at their station in life and not try to impose their views on each other.
LessaFlar31 5 years ago
I understand Spiral Dynamics but I have no idea what you are trying to say...
JustAsk70 4 years ago