Inner Life of Elephants, Part 12: Causality and Mirrors

[mascotasydemasbichos]

I feel sad watching this. Why are the elephants in chains? And how come this people view this as something so natural.

[veggiewarriors]

I sometimes wonder why we even need these tests. Why do we need these babies in chains to prove how intelligent they are to us, so that we can respect them?

Elephants and other animals have roamed and successfully thrived in harsh environments for thousands of years. Doesn't that require making intelligent decisions?

It's heartbreaking in a way.

[NormalGuyMe]

@veggiewarriors

Well yea, but so have archaebacteria, for billions of years, even.

[veggiewarriors]

@NormalGuyMe

I think elephants are VISIBLY more physically and socially complex than archaebacteria. No rocket science there.

[NormalGuyMe]

@veggiewarriors

Right, "visibly" - Through observation and study. Which is why the fact that they 'have roamed and successfully thrived in harsh environments' (like archaebacteria) is not enough to be evident of intelligent decision making.

[veggiewarriors]

@NormalGuyMe

But we have already gathered insights into elephant intelligence and decision makings through non-intrusive observation and study of wild elephants.

Why isn't that enough? Why do you need to train elephants to remove a lid and obtain food from a bucket to confirm they make intelligent decisions?

[veggiewarriors]

@johnnyf19

FYI, Elephants in CAPTIVITY don't have the freedom to live on their own terms. So they certainly cannot refuse to do a certain task.

Non-invasive field research also uses scientific methods without chaining the animal and forcing it to live on its keeper's terms.

Such experiments reflect a failure of creativity on the scientist's part.

[ChaseWatkins]

elephants seem to be problem solvers in their nature. maybe they could be taught that moving the lid is only conditional-based on its location relative to the bucket-if they would fix the lid to the ground and let the elephant find out that even though the lid didn't move, it can still get to the food.

maybe.

[antixkelz]

that doesn't mean they don't understand the concept. elephants are playful - they could view it as a game, with a reward for playing it lol

[moles9999]

Maybe the elephant's just thinking "If I play the fool these stupid humans will keep giving me food"?

[MsNatalie545]

I completely agree with Dov, it is possible the elephant is moving the lid even when it isn't covering the bucket or hole because at first IT WAS COVERED. In addition, the 'sound' of them placing it is over is consistent so they may be associating that with covering it. Last, they placed it very close to the bucket and hole I wonder if it was farther, if they would do the same.

[DovSherman]

It's hard to know exactly what the elephant is thinking. Maybe, upon seeing the lid placed on the ground, she simply wants to move it away before the human has a chance to put the lid on top of the bucket.

[cchoi108]

What you are doing is training the elephant to flip a lid on your cue. Your "cue" is that you put a lid near his trunk. After enough repetitions, if you put the lid in front of the elephant without the bucket, he'll flip the lid anyway.

This is basic animal training and how people train horses, dogs, cats, elephants to paint, etc. First you train them with treats. Then they do it without treats.

[cchoi108]

I don't see how this proves lack of causation. You are using basic techniques to train the elephant to flip a lid with his trunk.

A horse will throw the lid off of a barrel of grain in seconds. They are foraging animals, as are elephants, so they all do this by instinct.

Try leaving the bucket full of treats with lid in an untrained elephant's pen and observe him from afar. If he can smell the food, he will take the lid off to get to the food in the bucket.

[hussaruk]

yes, but what will happen if you keep placing the bucket in the untrained elephants pen with the lid on for 10 days and then put it in the pen with the lid next to it? the Elephant will probably still flip the lid as it has associated flipping the lid with getting food. It just proves the Elephant thinks flipping the lid is what causes the food to be present. I thought elephants were far more intelligent than this.