@caninebehavior Not necessarily, Mech said that it's still possible to have the alpha-beta structure in wolf packs(he gave some examples in the video), but that it's very uncommon in the wild.
@caninebehavior It's funny that some Cesar Millan haters say that dogs are not wolves (which I agree on) and yet use this to prove his methods wrong. Just because a pair of breeding wolves are the leaders of their pack, doesn't mean a dog pack works the same way.
while in thailand ive seen dogs that were semi wild exhibiting dominance. i saw a dog stand over another dog and just stay there keeping the other laying on the ground with teeth and snarling. these dogs live in the streets on beeches savaging and getting hand outs from dog lovers like me. im not saying oh this guys a jerk. hes smarter than me but ive seen dominance in dogs.
I do completely get what he's saying, but why can't that breeding wolf still be termed Alpha? He technically is Alpha still since he fight the other males for breeding rights. He had the drive to mate and defeat the other males to mate? Am I missing something? Also a dominance hierarchy is visibly present outside of breeding in wolves, something witnessed by thousands of observes of wolves in the wild, so surely it is still applicable?
@hyenapeptic But he didn't fight for breeding rights. He simply left his parents and siblings and found a mate of his own and bred with her. No fighting for breeding rights involved.
@hyenapeptic Parents discourage their offspring from mating with each other thats why....all efforts have to go into one litter. by the time young wolves are 2-3 years old, most left their parent pack to find a mate of their own. Would it really work for the genetic health of the species if a son was to knock his dad off top spot and mate with mum or a sister? Not really...and since packs consist of mum, dad and offspring, it wouldn't work very well that way.
@adzug Why would he be competing with other males? Didn't Mech state that a pack consists of parents and offspring? Why would a son try to knock his dad off top spot to mate with mum? Such inbreeding wouldn't do the species Offspring leave the pack by the age of 3 to find a mate of their own.
@Canislupess well think bout it , a male must move onto a new pack eventually and males compete for access to females. not vying with dad but other males. ive seen video of wolves chasing others wolves from their territory. its just natural economy. limited resources vs number of individuals. this is what keeps balance in the animal world or a species would grow exponentially without controls. they dont want to fight but outside pressures create this.cheers
@adzug They don't move into a new pack though. Packs very rarely accept outsiders..they are closed. It is only in rare circumstances they may...and this is usually when one of the breeding pair has died and the one left needs a new mate.
When they leave, they look for another lone wolf of the opposite sex and start their own pack...so they all eventually become breeders/parents. Did you not listen to Mech in this video? He states this.
@Canislupess thats what i meant though , when they mature they move on to start their own pack. inbreeding will weaken the genetic makeup and when they do they might look for a lone wolf and want to avoid confrontation that can lead to injury or death but the point is abundance or lack of. populations of animals and food are dynamic. theres a natural economy going on and thru lack of access confrontation becomes inevitable. for exp there were a rash of bear attacks on an island
@adzug I'm not sure what point you're making....lone wolves will avoid packs like the plague...because they would probably be killed by one if they bumped into it. Packs avoid each other like the plague. Jim Brandenburg set himself up where three territories overlapped thinking he would see loads of wolves. He saw none. He learned that the wolves ALL avoided this area. Getting into conflict wasn't worth it.
@adzug If wolves do come into conflict on occasion, it's not common...and it's not really got anything to do with 'Alpha'. Fact is, wolves don't fight their way up some hierarchy in a pack...this is what this video is about...not what conflict wolves from different packs might get into on the rare occasion which will still have no bearing on the social structure in each anyway.
@Canislupess this was due to a failed crop of available berries in the fall. hunters that had been there before described watching bears wait on them to clean a carcass so they could have the gut pile. outside forces caused them to attack humans where they previously wouldnt. so im saying dominance and aggression are just part of a system. im sure this is stronger in some animals more than others. am i missing something?cheers
@adzug Remember that even sustaining a slight injury can easily mean the death of a wild animal like a wolf that needs to be in top form. Packs need all members to help hunt...they can't really afford for any of them to be getting injured...this is why wolves instinctively avoid conflict wherever possible. It is simply too dangerous.
@Canislupess where is it you live? i was wondering because the pic from your profile is amazing. just what country im not a stalker. it just looks like beautiful country. then to have good dogs to go treking with seems like heaven.
@adzug The photo was taken in the Peak District UK. The UK has a number of similar places such as the Welsh Mountains, Lake District and the Scottish Highlands.
@adzug They do not compete for females. Packs also don't fight over territory. They avoid each other at all costs. Can't afford to be sustaining injuries..even slight ones. They aren't like humans you know. People think other animals are constantly fighting just because we do.
@hyenapeptic As fot the dominance part....behaviour is a soft subject...there is no scientific proof to state that any behaviour wolves engage in is about dominance. We can't read their minds for starters. Observer bias comes to mind...and I think Mech being one of the top experts, it's not really a good idea for lay people to discount what he says just because they don't like what they hear, you'd need scientific facts to back you up...and there are none to prove dominance.
@Canislupess yeah do i totally get you and i do get what you're saying, there is a certain bias there definitely, personally i see life as a struggle between four things: submission and dominance, and altruism and selfishness, so to some degree there will always be an alpha even if that alpha fell into the position naturally and doesn't get significant hierarchy, i follow the Richard Dawkins theory as they make more sense to me
@hyenapeptic Mech has been out there studying wolves for decades...the fact that he's spent much time living with wild wolves such as those on Ellemere Island and utilized tracking devices to get a better idea of what they are doing and where they are, this is how he knows what they actually do as opposed to what was originally thought. I really can't get my head around people contending the top wolf expert of today.
I'm not a biologist or scientist and have no experience with wolves but I think that I know more than Dr. Mech about the animals that he's spent decades studying. So I'm going to say that he's wrong about this field that he's an expert in.
Why are people so hung up on 'Alpha' and the idea of wolves fighting to the top of some pecking order? Such people have something wrong in their heads...that they then feel the need to project onto other animals. Mech is the one actually studying wolves...not the losers saying he is wrong in the comments here...what scientific leg do these losers have to stand on? They are pathetic!!
It's considered rare if a wolf mates for life. People just don't like to admit their favorite animal isn't perfect. Hell, owls have a better chance of mating for life then wolves.
Yea, this solved the mystery to Cesar's technique. It also shows that Cesar's technique of showing dominance is correct. Why? Since David said that alpha wolves can only be apply to pack where all the wolves are unrelated. Its the same for dogs right? they are taken away from their pack and to some unrelated human's home. Some already have dogs, some don't. In any case. we are unrelated. So, shld we show we is the dominance one?
@xiaoquan except Dr. Raymond Coopinger debunked Dominance theory by his studies of wild dogs in third world countries. Read Dogs: A New Understanding of Origin, Canine Behavior and Evolution by Dr. Raymond Coppinger.
@xiaoquan I see where you are going, but you are assuming that dogs and wolves are the same. They are not. Subsequent studies on domestic feral and pet dogs show that their behavioural traits and social behaviour in particular are markedly different to wolves. They don't form strict hierarchies. Dogs are really pack animals, in the technical sense of the term. Trying to compare dogs to wolves is like comparing chimpanzees to bonobos, or humans to chimpanzees.
@LoveDoggsDawgs They share 96% of their DNA, I believe. But look at the behavioural differences between the two species- there are some remarkable dissimilarities.
@mydogkanskidrums Well the biggest similarities are that bonobos are more sexual than chimpanzees and that chimpanzees are more aggressive than bonobos.
@xiaoquan, as a dog trainer I can tell you that basing dog training on wolf behavior is like basing human child rearing on chimp behavior. I have had to help many dogs "trained" by Cesar's program recover from very serious fear & aggression issues. Cesar has been sued by his clients, & many of the dogs on his show have been euthanized. He has also been rejected by nearly every dog behavior and animal welfare organization in the world. Look up the association of pet dog trainers for real advise.
Been wrong in the past and continuing to make mistakes. How many times did he contradict himself in 2 minutes and 35 seconds. This is where most of the anti Cesar Milan freaks base their arguments from, too funny. To silence the pack of idiots he should just come out and tell them that he is in no way an expert dog trainer. Wolves do not live without rules and discipline. Dogs also need discipline and consistency.
@MrSriwat Most dogs will not have a hard time killing a wolf. This has nothing to do with strength, but rather tenacity. Wolves have far more powerful jaws than pit bulls and they are bigger, but the wolf is a wild animal, meaning it would rather run and live another day than fight a meaningless fight. A pit bull, however, is a domesticated dog. Most dogs have had the fear of wild animals bred right out of them and have nothing to lose. Farm dogs like pit bulls used to defend herds from wolves.
@MrSriwat Maybe as a pack they can kill one Pit Bull. But the Pit Bull is bred for fighting, and have enough determination to defeat and opponent. Contrary to popular belief, wolves are not that cunning and would rather stay away from humans and dogs than provoke them.
@LoveDoggsDawgs You think a wild wolf would loose against a pit bull? when wolves team up against animals such as bears you really think a pitbull would stand a small chance? what is happening to the population on earth? ignorance all over the place.
I disagree. Although they may not always rise to their position through violence, there most certainly is an alpha pair that leads the pack. Wolf biologists have always pointed out that there is a wolf hierarchy and chain of command. It has more to do with than simply breeding.
Just need to clear up a little confusion here if any one can answer the question. Alright.. So the Breeding male and Female get their positions through default.. according to Mech over here right? So when they mate approximately.. they have a large litter.. What determines the next Breeding pair. If there isn't a dominance conflict.? In addition to that. There have been studies of members of a Pack respecting and pinning ears, lowering tail and giving respect. and what about fighting themselves?
@RoadsideMo, most wolf pups eventually separate and form their own packs around 2-3 years of age. Each wolf has the chance to become leader because each wolf can separate and find a mate.
I'm about to release a study which shows very clearly behaviorists have taken dominance completely out of context to fit into their twisted agenda. Dominance does infuence the brain of the dog and this is directly connected with the frequency and elevation of behavior. Replace the word Dominance with Influence and then tune in the cognitive.
I'm about to release a study which shows very clearly behaviorists have taken dominance completely out of context to fit into their twisted agenda. Dominance does infuence the brain of the dog and this is directly connected with the frequency and elevation of behavior. Replace the word Dominance with Influence and then tune in the cognitive. Dale McCluskey
It is the same with humans. A normal family consists of a mom and pop and the kids. Unrelated adults are seldom allowed into the family. But throw a bunch of unrelated humans together into a prison, and they form packs. The stronger ones compete for alpha status. Others try to cope through submission.
The early studies drew faulty conclusions about Ozzie and Harriet wolves from studying animals in the wolf equivalent of Folsum.
@Ignozi what you think humans are so much higher up then wolves? why not apply this term to humans? everything a wolf has we hav so why not the same terms?
@hypoglycemix Because humans can rationalize and reason. I have never heard of a wolf philosopher. The neo-cortex is a huge difference. If you think humans are on an equal level as wolves, then there is nothing else to discuss here.
....also parents / breeding pairs will also show their dominance to their offspring - but rarely through fighting or similar activities. They mostly just display 'dominant' body language.
Despite this its still true that offspring in a family/pack of wolves will form a pecking order through fighting/play etc. Furthermore wolves not of the offspring of the breeding pair that enter the pack as outsiders have to establish their place in the pack. Pecking order establishment involves mostly what is broadly known as dominance/submission behaviours.
Mech here is merely stating that the 'highest' members of a wild wolf pack are almost always breeding partners, or parents.
What? So everything I was told about wolves, especially watching the documentary: Living With Wolves, was all a lie? What's next, the Easter Bunny doesn't exist? >:U
I kidd.
Well, I learn something new today. c:
This will take a while for people/media/everything to accept this. >.<
@Hawaiianstile A more correct term is dominant pair of breeding pair rather than alpha. Yes, the dominants will eat the richer parts of the kill such as the liver, heart and intestines - but this is not because they are the strongest. As stated in the video the dominant wolves aren't always the strongest in the pack, they simply got there by 'default'.
Anyway, this doesn't mean that the term 'alpha' is correct...
@BluOceanBubbles i understand him, i just find it very hard to believe that any creature would relinquish both feeding and breeding rights to a weaker individual.
@Hawaiianstile Packs are started by two dispersal wolves who become mates and breed, therefore producing offspring. The offspring would naturally not want breeding rights, since they would be breeding with their siblings. This is why wolves do not compete for dominance.
@Hawaiianstile Well, technically you said 'off spring' which is misleading.
Many wolf information books are outdated; all new books now include the recent and correct information. I recommend you invest in David Mech's books as they contain valid and very up to date facts. You can't expect a book from 1997 to remain correct for 13 years. You're being very closed-minded to the fact that things have changed.
@BluOceanBubbles no im using logic based on every other creature on earth that would never let a weaker male have feeding and breeding privileges over him. like i said i don't see any creature relinquishing such things to a weaker male.
@Hawaiianstile I shouldn't really anthropomorphise, but nonetheless- think of it this way. Human families work on the basis of the parents are the 'leaders'. A teenage boy wouldn't want to become the father of the family, would he? It is instinct for a species not to interbreed; that is why wolves do not challenge their parents for dominance, because as a result that would mean they would have to breed with their parents.
@BluOceanBubbles which brings me back to my first point that i never heard of wolf packs consisting of a pair of parents and their children. i have always understood wolf packs as having numerous unrelated members.
@Hawaiianstile Just because YOU never heard of it, it doesn't mean that it is false, does it? Why does your perception of things have to be right? Your facts are based on captive wolf packs, which are a group of unrelated wolves. In the wild wolves are family groups, end of.
@Hawaiianstile How many wild wolf packs have you been out and personally studied then....and you're questioning a guy who's spent much of his life doing exactly that?
@Thedarksecret1 No they do not. There is no "dominance" in a wolf pack, so there is no need to fight for it. It is quite bemusing that you are trying to contradict one of the world's top wolf biologists.
@BluOceanBubbles There is dominance in a wolf pack. Even a person with a doctorate degree can be wrong. You don't have to believe me. Frankly, I don't care.
@Thedarksecret1 The only time dominance is present in a wolf pack is during times where food is present (this is going by Mech's own research). There is no need for dominance except for feeding times - there is no ranking or hierarchy.
In most cases, he's right. But in some packs, they mix it up, so there are members from different families, then it's whoever is strongest and smartest
@WolfPark101 It is extremely, extremely rare for a stranger wolf to be accepted into a pack. You don't come across a big pack of wolves who are completely unrelated in the wild - it isn't like that.
Just like unrelated wolves that are confined together where they cannot flee from danger, human prisoners fight for dominance if they are able, or submit to stronger prisoners if they cannot. You cannot understand the Huxtable family by studying the society of Sing Sing.
@chiefnaiche I agree with u, except I wouldnt rate him as high as a beta. He is a castrated Nat. Geo. stooge. What is he a phd of? Feminism? He also says animals dont have emotions. He is a fraud.
@Aauantia this fraud invented the term alpha like Al Gore invented the internet. He also says wolves n dogs dont have emotions. You believe him if u want but Iearned about wolves without ever reading this guy's crap. He is a N.G. stooge n always has been.
It KILLS me to see people arguing against David using information they are unknowingly reciting from HIS research. xD You are simply regurgitating information HE gave you.
Do you have /any/ idea who this man is? He is -the- pioneer of wolf study and behavior. He coined the term alpha; he wrote the book on it -- literally!
This video is a discussion of his understanding after 50+ years of experience; if David is saying the info is wrong, there isn't a soul on earth which more credibility.
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the guy is full of shit. there is an innate energy that lives inside the alpha wolf... not who breeds. the wolf who breeds is determined by its energy, nothing to do wiht age or sex. full of shit
@codythemagnificent actually he's completely right. what the fuck are YOU talking about? innate energy?????? LOL. packs are always a family. get over it. wolves dont form stragetic platoons, hokay?
wolves mate to mate, wolves are close to humans in banging anything that has a vag and then says bye thats why the "alpha" male gets to mate with any female he wants or all of them
When you've read "Leadership behavior in relation to dominance and reproductive status in gray wolves, Canis lupus" (Mech et al), "Alpha Status, Dominance, and Division of Labor in Wolf Packs" (Mech 1999) & "Leadership in Wolf, Canis lupus, packs." (Mech 2000) as well as his 2008 Article "What Ever Happened to the Term Alpha Wolf?" and of course the book he edited with Boitani in 2003 "Wolves..." you'll have all your answers. It's not my job to do your homework.
and wolves are solitary to, until they find a mate and have offspring. Besides, dogs are NOT wolves. Dogs do not form extended nuclear families. They mate, go their separate ways and mother dog raises the pups. Groups of dogs in the wild do not form stable groups, but rather come together territorially, but only temprarily without leader. Read the literature by Coppinger, Semyonova and others! Neither dogs nor wolves have a leader by whatever name exerting dominace over other family members.
@musicofnote1 Your a fool, you've read books, i have seen shows, and you are wrong. What happens when there is a kill? The "breeding male and female" don't exert dominance on the others in the pack? They don't bite and growl and wrestle the other wolves that try to eat first? What happens when the male gets old and another wolf wants to mate? Challengers from within the pack aren't put in their place and the alpha male isn't ousted if defeated for mating rights? Watch a god damn film retard.
"Your a fool, you've read books, i have seen shows, and you are wrong."
Well, that's quite an intellectual stand you've got. Have you read Dr. Mech's 1999 study? Have you read the anthology of other studies he edited in 2003? Are they ALL wrong, just because you saw a film?
Really?
You're right and everyone else is wrong. Do you know what they call that?
@musicofnote1 You still haven't addressed the points I made. What is all that behavior that I previously mentioned if not a fight for and control of dominance/alpha male status in the pack?
"But a outside male can challenge the alpha, can't he? "
ahhh, how can anyone challenge the Alpha, when there is no Alpha?
And did you actually listen to Dr. Mech. wolves travel in extended nuclear families, not packs. Just like people live in (sometimes extended) nuclear families, not packs.
The mating pair is the "head honcho" pair, they lead the pack. So why are we not calling the "mating pair" alfa anymore? to me the word "alfa" means leader, and the mating pair are the leaders.......
No, because the term "alpha" implies that an individual wolf used dominance or aggression to rise to top of the pecking order, when in fact there is no pecking order, and dominance or aggression is not used to establish the "alpha" role. The "mating pair" happens naturally with breeding. It's more a "family" of wolves than a "pack".
@misterniko171 Okay, we aren't calling it alfa because of the negative conotation then? I agree that parents have a big role, I just confused with the wording in the video. Thanks for answering my question. I'm still going to call it a pack though hahaha.
Yep, pretty much. It's pretty much a mass confusion as to the TRUE meaning of particular words such as "alpha", "beta", "pack", etc etc.
The most important complication I think is the way people train their dogs when they think they need to be "alpha" over their dog, when in fact they should view their dog as part of the family and on an equal level with them. Dominance is not necessary to properly train dogs.
Leo provides some new info regarding wolf pack mentality, but regardless - one or two wolves have to take the leadership role. Call them Mommy or Daddy, whatever... one (or two) are ultimately responsible for the pack and maintaining order. Most dog owners don't keep a group of dogs all descending from the same parents. Within the human's
"pack" the human must take the position of Food Provider, Rule Maker & Enforcer, Leader, Caretaker. Our word for that is "Alpha". Get used to it.
@TCDOA The point is not that the word "alpha" is so bad in itself - it's the idea that you need to physically intimidate the dog out of bad behaviors. The old theory based on flawed studies was that you needed to roll the dog over and yell at him or choke him to get him to behave. That kind of training is the problem, not the word itself.
Funny, all my jindo needed from me was real conviction in my voice, rather than the requesting tone I once used. Completely changed his life (and probably saved it as he used to autonomously decide which people and dogs posed a threat to our family.
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I didn't vote anyone's comments negative, you assuming moron. Look --- you're no longer worth my time: anyone who states that they forgot more than someone else will ever know, is, without fail, a pompous jerk with, typically, no real education. I've debated your kind before, and I won't waste any more of my precious time with you.
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If you study canine Ethology, then we should be on the same page, I don't quite remember why you challenged me, but so far you haven't explained our differences, other than you babbling about dynamics. Have you ever seen a wild wolf interact? Then talk to me.
I agreed with the Dr.'s comment, but felt he was mincing words pertaining to Alpha. Is that UR bone to pic?
Good luck in your studies, help stop aerial hunting.
Keep one more thing in mind. Yellowstone wolves were not the original wolves of that area. They were originally brought in from elsewhere and starting up several packs that did not originate with family members only.
The dynamics in Yellowstone are greatly different than almost any other area that wild wolves occupy.
I think YOU need to read the science on this. You're the one that is wrong. It appears you're making this up as you go along. I happen, by the way, to be in a ph.d program in animal ethology.
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How much time in the field do you have and where? Have you ever seen a wolf in the wild, other than BBC?
Telling me you are in a PHD program doesn't bolster your failed argument. As Dr. Mech states, he has made mistakes so you sort of shoot yourself in the foot over that remark! *LOL
Thank you, Dr. Mech. It's been almost 20 years since I did Wolf Tracking through Earthwatch in Ely, MN. Dr. Mech was one of the advisers of the research project (tracked radio collared wolves 24 hrs/day via triangulation using 2 vans) I still plan to get back to Ely and revisit the International Wolf Center - Thanks for all your good wolf research and teachings.
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This is just plain stupid.
Alpha simply means "one". It never means fighting unless a outside Wolf comes in and over throws a leader of a pack.
I can't figure where he figures this rarely happens. It happens in Yellowstone, that's for sure!
I'm also trying to figure out who he's playing to. Anyone who studies wolves whether you are College Degreed or lucky to have had great experiences with excellent Biologist who study them daily as he did, and have made seeking the truth about wildlife.
I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. First, the term 'alpha,' as it was used regarding wolf packs, implied a leader who became the head of the pack by aggression and constant bullying --- and we now know (actaully, have known) that's not how a wolf pack leader is made. Second, outsider wolves NEVER take over an established pack, which in wolf terms simply means a group of related wolves. Third, this guy is way more than just 'college degreed,' that THE wolf biologist -Dr.Mech.
Where has that ever been taught? I never heard that Alpha meant by force. That has been implied, especially within Packs that are not fully made of family members only.
I think this is in agreement with Dr. Mech. Just misunderstood by many, including you!
You are pretty much wrong on every point. Outsiders have become part of "Packs" and some later have taken over as Alpha.
You obviously know very little about wolves and certainly have never read any of the early studies (those that we know know had many erroneous conclusions). Although I'm limited in my time at this moment, I'll happily expound on all this later.
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*LOl
I have forgotten more than you'll ever learn my friend. I have spent a great deal of my life studying them. I have read many dissertations on the subject, from a variety of sources, one being Dr. Mech.
Science evolves, but it's who's collecting that data, why, and to what end? Grants keep studies going, sometimes even when they shouldn't. The term alpha is being misunderstood by many if they think it means anything other than leader, Mom/Pop, or most dominant.
I never spoke to the issue of what 'alpha' referred to, but it does not have anything to do with being the 'most dominant,' since so called dominance in a wolf pack is dynamic, just as is the leader of resource aquisition activity. Alpha only refers to the mating pair, and has nothing to do with behavior.
I love people who assert that they've forgotten more than someone will ever learn. First, that's highly improbable, if not impossible; second, I know a great deal about wolves, since my area of study is canine ethology; third, my ph.d advisor is a former student of dr. Mech's, and he has spent a lot of time in Ely, MN on several projects
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I love people who assert that a friend of a friend of a friend studied a friend. I have spent a great deal in Ely, Yellowstone, Jasper, Alberta, and most of the western regions of the Rockies. When one starts showing their laundry list of credentials to win a argument, it shows weakness.
While you talk of who your advisor knows, take a stroll through predator country JR. , and bring a journal.
I do wish you luck, and advise you to get your boots dirty before you start lecturing.
Last sentence in my previous post should have read:
Third, this guy is way more than just 'college degreed,' for he is THE wolf biologist -Dr.David Mech. Also, nothing with wild wolves in Yellowstone is different from wild wolves anywhere else. The only documented hierarchy conflicts have been with artificially assembled 'packs; ' in other words, wolves from different family packs pulled from their original packs and thrown together with wolves from other family packs.
Dr. Mech even speaks of the difference between Yellowstone packs and packs of other regions. Do you listen to ALL the info, or just what soothes your agenda.
I don't care whether you agree with me or not, you should put forth actual facts, not YOUr misguided theories.
Dr.Mech is the man! but he too got caught up in use of words, and for some misguided reason, people like you only comprehend a small amount of what he's saying.
You do realize this is basically a matter of nomenclature right? and that it only applies to natural wild wolf packs. Unrealated wolves when put together still form the alpha wolf system.
Some people are acting like little wolf democracies are being formed and that dogs are now equal to people
"Dominance" as an explanation of behavior, as a Personality Trait,
or as a 'lifestyle', is actually DUMBinance: it indicates that the person
doesn't actually know the DEFINITION of dominance:
it's an event, it's dyadic [2 individuals], it's about RESOURCES
not status, & it's INTRAspecies - not INTERspecies.
That means even if dogs had hierarchy [& they don't], humans
wouldn't be ranked, anyway - we're not dogs, & dogs know that.
gadfly72 1 week ago
This debunks cesar millan and all punitive based training!
caninebehavior 2 weeks ago
@caninebehavior Not necessarily, Mech said that it's still possible to have the alpha-beta structure in wolf packs(he gave some examples in the video), but that it's very uncommon in the wild.
doom032 1 week ago
@caninebehavior It's funny that some Cesar Millan haters say that dogs are not wolves (which I agree on) and yet use this to prove his methods wrong. Just because a pair of breeding wolves are the leaders of their pack, doesn't mean a dog pack works the same way.
LoveDoggsDawgs 1 day ago
Russian please!!!!!
Здарова, у кого-нибудь есть перевод того, шо он сказал, а??
AlexeykaTKD 1 month ago
while in thailand ive seen dogs that were semi wild exhibiting dominance. i saw a dog stand over another dog and just stay there keeping the other laying on the ground with teeth and snarling. these dogs live in the streets on beeches savaging and getting hand outs from dog lovers like me. im not saying oh this guys a jerk. hes smarter than me but ive seen dominance in dogs.
adzug 1 month ago
I do completely get what he's saying, but why can't that breeding wolf still be termed Alpha? He technically is Alpha still since he fight the other males for breeding rights. He had the drive to mate and defeat the other males to mate? Am I missing something? Also a dominance hierarchy is visibly present outside of breeding in wolves, something witnessed by thousands of observes of wolves in the wild, so surely it is still applicable?
hyenapeptic 3 months ago
@hyenapeptic But he didn't fight for breeding rights. He simply left his parents and siblings and found a mate of his own and bred with her. No fighting for breeding rights involved.
Canislupess 3 months ago
@Canislupess There's literally thousands of videos of male wolves fighting all the other males off females
hyenapeptic 3 months ago
@hyenapeptic Parents discourage their offspring from mating with each other thats why....all efforts have to go into one litter. by the time young wolves are 2-3 years old, most left their parent pack to find a mate of their own. Would it really work for the genetic health of the species if a son was to knock his dad off top spot and mate with mum or a sister? Not really...and since packs consist of mum, dad and offspring, it wouldn't work very well that way.
Canislupess 3 months ago
@Canislupess unless hes competing with another male for the female or packs are fighting for territory or food.
adzug 1 month ago
@adzug Why would he be competing with other males? Didn't Mech state that a pack consists of parents and offspring? Why would a son try to knock his dad off top spot to mate with mum? Such inbreeding wouldn't do the species Offspring leave the pack by the age of 3 to find a mate of their own.
Canislupess 1 month ago
@Canislupess well think bout it , a male must move onto a new pack eventually and males compete for access to females. not vying with dad but other males. ive seen video of wolves chasing others wolves from their territory. its just natural economy. limited resources vs number of individuals. this is what keeps balance in the animal world or a species would grow exponentially without controls. they dont want to fight but outside pressures create this.cheers
adzug 1 month ago
@adzug They don't move into a new pack though. Packs very rarely accept outsiders..they are closed. It is only in rare circumstances they may...and this is usually when one of the breeding pair has died and the one left needs a new mate.
When they leave, they look for another lone wolf of the opposite sex and start their own pack...so they all eventually become breeders/parents. Did you not listen to Mech in this video? He states this.
Canislupess 1 month ago
@Canislupess thats what i meant though , when they mature they move on to start their own pack. inbreeding will weaken the genetic makeup and when they do they might look for a lone wolf and want to avoid confrontation that can lead to injury or death but the point is abundance or lack of. populations of animals and food are dynamic. theres a natural economy going on and thru lack of access confrontation becomes inevitable. for exp there were a rash of bear attacks on an island
adzug 1 month ago
@adzug I'm not sure what point you're making....lone wolves will avoid packs like the plague...because they would probably be killed by one if they bumped into it. Packs avoid each other like the plague. Jim Brandenburg set himself up where three territories overlapped thinking he would see loads of wolves. He saw none. He learned that the wolves ALL avoided this area. Getting into conflict wasn't worth it.
Canislupess 1 month ago
@adzug If wolves do come into conflict on occasion, it's not common...and it's not really got anything to do with 'Alpha'. Fact is, wolves don't fight their way up some hierarchy in a pack...this is what this video is about...not what conflict wolves from different packs might get into on the rare occasion which will still have no bearing on the social structure in each anyway.
Canislupess 1 month ago 2
@Canislupess this was due to a failed crop of available berries in the fall. hunters that had been there before described watching bears wait on them to clean a carcass so they could have the gut pile. outside forces caused them to attack humans where they previously wouldnt. so im saying dominance and aggression are just part of a system. im sure this is stronger in some animals more than others. am i missing something?cheers
adzug 1 month ago
@adzug Remember that even sustaining a slight injury can easily mean the death of a wild animal like a wolf that needs to be in top form. Packs need all members to help hunt...they can't really afford for any of them to be getting injured...this is why wolves instinctively avoid conflict wherever possible. It is simply too dangerous.
Canislupess 1 month ago 2
@Canislupess where is it you live? i was wondering because the pic from your profile is amazing. just what country im not a stalker. it just looks like beautiful country. then to have good dogs to go treking with seems like heaven.
adzug 1 month ago
@adzug The photo was taken in the Peak District UK. The UK has a number of similar places such as the Welsh Mountains, Lake District and the Scottish Highlands.
Canislupess 1 month ago
@adzug They do not compete for females. Packs also don't fight over territory. They avoid each other at all costs. Can't afford to be sustaining injuries..even slight ones. They aren't like humans you know. People think other animals are constantly fighting just because we do.
Canislupess 1 month ago
@adzug Thanks for the channel post btw:)
Canislupess 1 month ago
@Canislupess you seem to have done a great job with your dogs. thats great really
adzug 1 month ago
@hyenapeptic As fot the dominance part....behaviour is a soft subject...there is no scientific proof to state that any behaviour wolves engage in is about dominance. We can't read their minds for starters. Observer bias comes to mind...and I think Mech being one of the top experts, it's not really a good idea for lay people to discount what he says just because they don't like what they hear, you'd need scientific facts to back you up...and there are none to prove dominance.
Canislupess 3 months ago
@Canislupess yeah do i totally get you and i do get what you're saying, there is a certain bias there definitely, personally i see life as a struggle between four things: submission and dominance, and altruism and selfishness, so to some degree there will always be an alpha even if that alpha fell into the position naturally and doesn't get significant hierarchy, i follow the Richard Dawkins theory as they make more sense to me
hyenapeptic 3 months ago
@hyenapeptic Mech has been out there studying wolves for decades...the fact that he's spent much time living with wild wolves such as those on Ellemere Island and utilized tracking devices to get a better idea of what they are doing and where they are, this is how he knows what they actually do as opposed to what was originally thought. I really can't get my head around people contending the top wolf expert of today.
Canislupess 3 months ago
I'm not a biologist or scientist and have no experience with wolves but I think that I know more than Dr. Mech about the animals that he's spent decades studying. So I'm going to say that he's wrong about this field that he's an expert in.
msminnamouse 4 months ago
Why are people so hung up on 'Alpha' and the idea of wolves fighting to the top of some pecking order? Such people have something wrong in their heads...that they then feel the need to project onto other animals. Mech is the one actually studying wolves...not the losers saying he is wrong in the comments here...what scientific leg do these losers have to stand on? They are pathetic!!
Canislupess 5 months ago 3
@Canislupess And the people who base dog behavior on a faulty wolf study just defy logic.
msminnamouse 4 months ago
oh what, and now you're going to try and tell me pluto is not a planet????
MrAsthomas 5 months ago
But "Alpha male" sounds cooled than "Breeding male" :P
razorrulzz 6 months ago
It's considered rare if a wolf mates for life. People just don't like to admit their favorite animal isn't perfect. Hell, owls have a better chance of mating for life then wolves.
Securitron343 6 months ago
Yea, this solved the mystery to Cesar's technique. It also shows that Cesar's technique of showing dominance is correct. Why? Since David said that alpha wolves can only be apply to pack where all the wolves are unrelated. Its the same for dogs right? they are taken away from their pack and to some unrelated human's home. Some already have dogs, some don't. In any case. we are unrelated. So, shld we show we is the dominance one?
xiaoquan 7 months ago
@xiaoquan except Dr. Raymond Coopinger debunked Dominance theory by his studies of wild dogs in third world countries. Read Dogs: A New Understanding of Origin, Canine Behavior and Evolution by Dr. Raymond Coppinger.
Sreed714 7 months ago
@xiaoquan I see where you are going, but you are assuming that dogs and wolves are the same. They are not. Subsequent studies on domestic feral and pet dogs show that their behavioural traits and social behaviour in particular are markedly different to wolves. They don't form strict hierarchies. Dogs are really pack animals, in the technical sense of the term. Trying to compare dogs to wolves is like comparing chimpanzees to bonobos, or humans to chimpanzees.
mydogkanskidrums 6 months ago
@mydogkanskidrums Meant to say that dogs are NOT really pack animals
mydogkanskidrums 6 months ago
@mydogkanskidrums Chimpanzees are close enough to bonobos.
LoveDoggsDawgs 5 months ago
@LoveDoggsDawgs They share 96% of their DNA, I believe. But look at the behavioural differences between the two species- there are some remarkable dissimilarities.
mydogkanskidrums 5 months ago
@mydogkanskidrums Well the biggest similarities are that bonobos are more sexual than chimpanzees and that chimpanzees are more aggressive than bonobos.
LoveDoggsDawgs 5 months ago
@mydogkanskidrums It's like comparing Michael Jackson to Justin Bieber.
LoveDoggsDawgs 5 months ago
@xiaoquan, as a dog trainer I can tell you that basing dog training on wolf behavior is like basing human child rearing on chimp behavior. I have had to help many dogs "trained" by Cesar's program recover from very serious fear & aggression issues. Cesar has been sued by his clients, & many of the dogs on his show have been euthanized. He has also been rejected by nearly every dog behavior and animal welfare organization in the world. Look up the association of pet dog trainers for real advise.
TVSheShe 3 months ago
damn... so the more wolf hoes the male wolf fucks is DA MAN hahaha just like our society. I LOVE SEX haha.
1212ofomyzrc 8 months ago
Been wrong in the past and continuing to make mistakes. How many times did he contradict himself in 2 minutes and 35 seconds. This is where most of the anti Cesar Milan freaks base their arguments from, too funny. To silence the pack of idiots he should just come out and tell them that he is in no way an expert dog trainer. Wolves do not live without rules and discipline. Dogs also need discipline and consistency.
whitehorsejason 8 months ago
Can a wolf kill pitbull?
MrSriwat 9 months ago
@MrSriwat Most dogs will not have a hard time killing a wolf. This has nothing to do with strength, but rather tenacity. Wolves have far more powerful jaws than pit bulls and they are bigger, but the wolf is a wild animal, meaning it would rather run and live another day than fight a meaningless fight. A pit bull, however, is a domesticated dog. Most dogs have had the fear of wild animals bred right out of them and have nothing to lose. Farm dogs like pit bulls used to defend herds from wolves.
QueenCrocuta 8 months ago
@MrSriwat Maybe as a pack they can kill one Pit Bull. But the Pit Bull is bred for fighting, and have enough determination to defeat and opponent. Contrary to popular belief, wolves are not that cunning and would rather stay away from humans and dogs than provoke them.
LoveDoggsDawgs 5 months ago
@LoveDoggsDawgs You think a wild wolf would loose against a pit bull? when wolves team up against animals such as bears you really think a pitbull would stand a small chance? what is happening to the population on earth? ignorance all over the place.
Icantfeeeeeelit 3 weeks ago
@RoadsideMo
Uploa Roadside Romeo not. Just music videos!
alylovesbreyers4ever 9 months ago
I disagree. Although they may not always rise to their position through violence, there most certainly is an alpha pair that leads the pack. Wolf biologists have always pointed out that there is a wolf hierarchy and chain of command. It has more to do with than simply breeding.
wolfshadow713 9 months ago
Comment removed
wolfshadow713 9 months ago
Just need to clear up a little confusion here if any one can answer the question. Alright.. So the Breeding male and Female get their positions through default.. according to Mech over here right? So when they mate approximately.. they have a large litter.. What determines the next Breeding pair. If there isn't a dominance conflict.? In addition to that. There have been studies of members of a Pack respecting and pinning ears, lowering tail and giving respect. and what about fighting themselves?
RoadsideMo 9 months ago
@RoadsideMo, most wolf pups eventually separate and form their own packs around 2-3 years of age. Each wolf has the chance to become leader because each wolf can separate and find a mate.
TVSheShe 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I'm about to release a study which shows very clearly behaviorists have taken dominance completely out of context to fit into their twisted agenda. Dominance does infuence the brain of the dog and this is directly connected with the frequency and elevation of behavior. Replace the word Dominance with Influence and then tune in the cognitive.
dalemk90 11 months ago
I'm about to release a study which shows very clearly behaviorists have taken dominance completely out of context to fit into their twisted agenda. Dominance does infuence the brain of the dog and this is directly connected with the frequency and elevation of behavior. Replace the word Dominance with Influence and then tune in the cognitive. Dale McCluskey
dalemk90 11 months ago
Just so you know people this does not discredit dominance theory.
skinnydogkew 11 months ago
Yeah, love this vid. !!
Crejaksiaan4ever 11 months ago
It is the same with humans. A normal family consists of a mom and pop and the kids. Unrelated adults are seldom allowed into the family. But throw a bunch of unrelated humans together into a prison, and they form packs. The stronger ones compete for alpha status. Others try to cope through submission.
The early studies drew faulty conclusions about Ozzie and Harriet wolves from studying animals in the wolf equivalent of Folsum.
JiveDadson 1 year ago 2
Why would someone apply this term to humans?
Honest question.
Ignozi 1 year ago
@Ignozi what you think humans are so much higher up then wolves? why not apply this term to humans? everything a wolf has we hav so why not the same terms?
hypoglycemix 1 year ago
@hypoglycemix Because humans can rationalize and reason. I have never heard of a wolf philosopher. The neo-cortex is a huge difference. If you think humans are on an equal level as wolves, then there is nothing else to discuss here.
Ignozi 1 year ago
....also parents / breeding pairs will also show their dominance to their offspring - but rarely through fighting or similar activities. They mostly just display 'dominant' body language.
drumfromthesoul 1 year ago
Despite this its still true that offspring in a family/pack of wolves will form a pecking order through fighting/play etc. Furthermore wolves not of the offspring of the breeding pair that enter the pack as outsiders have to establish their place in the pack. Pecking order establishment involves mostly what is broadly known as dominance/submission behaviours.
Mech here is merely stating that the 'highest' members of a wild wolf pack are almost always breeding partners, or parents.
drumfromthesoul 1 year ago
i just watch ALPHA and OMEGA now im here searching about them hehhee ^.^
CeeEmmz 1 year ago
@CeeEmmz yeah me too...kate is hot
sayyid14 1 year ago
Many stupid people to this day are applying this to human relationships and screwing them up.
hellocomeinnow 1 year ago 3
@hellocomeinnow Mostly PUA community guys who like to "sarge" clubs and feel "alpha".
Just for the lulz.
Ignozi 1 year ago
you're forgiven Doc,
I know you've forgotten more than most of us will ever know.
It cracks me up to read some of these posts here :))))
idiots who don't read or know anything.
Dr. Mech , regardless is one of or "The" most experienced biologists on the planet where Wolves are concerned.
weykooey 1 year ago 11
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this is douchebag propaganda, this old man is a cross dresser who works at the truck stop at night
marktsheppard 1 year ago
@MrBolsones Google is your friend. WOLVES MONOGAMOUS are the keywords you should use.
HoS777 1 year ago
What? So everything I was told about wolves, especially watching the documentary: Living With Wolves, was all a lie? What's next, the Easter Bunny doesn't exist? >:U
I kidd.
Well, I learn something new today. c:
This will take a while for people/media/everything to accept this. >.<
Zooffie 1 year ago
but doesn't the alpha w eat the best parts of the kill by right of mite?
Hawaiianstile 1 year ago
@Hawaiianstile A more correct term is dominant pair of breeding pair rather than alpha. Yes, the dominants will eat the richer parts of the kill such as the liver, heart and intestines - but this is not because they are the strongest. As stated in the video the dominant wolves aren't always the strongest in the pack, they simply got there by 'default'.
Anyway, this doesn't mean that the term 'alpha' is correct...
BluOceanBubbles 1 year ago
@BluOceanBubbles i understand him, i just find it very hard to believe that any creature would relinquish both feeding and breeding rights to a weaker individual.
Hawaiianstile 1 year ago
@Hawaiianstile Packs are started by two dispersal wolves who become mates and breed, therefore producing offspring. The offspring would naturally not want breeding rights, since they would be breeding with their siblings. This is why wolves do not compete for dominance.
BluOceanBubbles 1 year ago
@BluOceanBubbles i have not read anything saying that a wolf pack, like a bee hive, consist of dominant parent and working off spring.
Hawaiianstile 1 year ago
@Hawaiianstile Haha... "offspring" means their children, if you need me to be that simplistic.
BluOceanBubbles 1 year ago
@BluOceanBubbles no shit Sherlock that's what i just said.
Hawaiianstile 1 year ago
@Hawaiianstile Well, technically you said 'off spring' which is misleading.
Many wolf information books are outdated; all new books now include the recent and correct information. I recommend you invest in David Mech's books as they contain valid and very up to date facts. You can't expect a book from 1997 to remain correct for 13 years. You're being very closed-minded to the fact that things have changed.
BluOceanBubbles 1 year ago
@BluOceanBubbles no im using logic based on every other creature on earth that would never let a weaker male have feeding and breeding privileges over him. like i said i don't see any creature relinquishing such things to a weaker male.
Hawaiianstile 1 year ago
@Hawaiianstile I shouldn't really anthropomorphise, but nonetheless- think of it this way. Human families work on the basis of the parents are the 'leaders'. A teenage boy wouldn't want to become the father of the family, would he? It is instinct for a species not to interbreed; that is why wolves do not challenge their parents for dominance, because as a result that would mean they would have to breed with their parents.
BluOceanBubbles 1 year ago
@BluOceanBubbles which brings me back to my first point that i never heard of wolf packs consisting of a pair of parents and their children. i have always understood wolf packs as having numerous unrelated members.
Hawaiianstile 1 year ago
@Hawaiianstile Just because YOU never heard of it, it doesn't mean that it is false, does it? Why does your perception of things have to be right? Your facts are based on captive wolf packs, which are a group of unrelated wolves. In the wild wolves are family groups, end of.
BluOceanBubbles 1 year ago 6
@Hawaiianstile How many wild wolf packs have you been out and personally studied then....and you're questioning a guy who's spent much of his life doing exactly that?
Canislupess 1 year ago 3
@Hawaiianstile You heard wrong. Do not believe everything you think.
JiveDadson 1 year ago
good stuff
iamhim2010 1 year ago
It's hilarious watching people tell Dr Mech that he is wrong. You people are aware of who he is, right? Thanks for the lolz.
LaurelinPapillon 1 year ago 18
Yeah, but wolves still fight amongst each other to establish dominance. Therefore, the term alpha male is still accurate.
Thedarksecret1 1 year ago
@Thedarksecret1 No they do not. There is no "dominance" in a wolf pack, so there is no need to fight for it. It is quite bemusing that you are trying to contradict one of the world's top wolf biologists.
BluOceanBubbles 1 year ago
@BluOceanBubbles There is dominance in a wolf pack. Even a person with a doctorate degree can be wrong. You don't have to believe me. Frankly, I don't care.
Thedarksecret1 1 year ago
@Thedarksecret1 The only time dominance is present in a wolf pack is during times where food is present (this is going by Mech's own research). There is no need for dominance except for feeding times - there is no ranking or hierarchy.
BluOceanBubbles 1 year ago
smart guy thanks for upload very interesting!
RealspitHiphop604 1 year ago 2
In most cases, he's right. But in some packs, they mix it up, so there are members from different families, then it's whoever is strongest and smartest
WolfPark101 1 year ago
@WolfPark101 It is extremely, extremely rare for a stranger wolf to be accepted into a pack. You don't come across a big pack of wolves who are completely unrelated in the wild - it isn't like that.
BluOceanBubbles 1 year ago
STFU
ralphiepina0 1 year ago
are you a wolf sir? THEN shut up!
abdu2s 1 year ago
Just like unrelated wolves that are confined together where they cannot flee from danger, human prisoners fight for dominance if they are able, or submit to stronger prisoners if they cannot. You cannot understand the Huxtable family by studying the society of Sing Sing.
JiveDadson 1 year ago
If thats the case then what does that make the Omega Wolf then? Its the lowest of the pack. Is it a new member or was it born last?
slicingwater 1 year ago
@slicingwater There's no such thing as the Omega wolf.
JiveDadson 1 year ago
@chiefnaiche I agree with u, except I wouldnt rate him as high as a beta. He is a castrated Nat. Geo. stooge. What is he a phd of? Feminism? He also says animals dont have emotions. He is a fraud.
CelticKnight7758 1 year ago
@Aauantia this fraud invented the term alpha like Al Gore invented the internet. He also says wolves n dogs dont have emotions. You believe him if u want but Iearned about wolves without ever reading this guy's crap. He is a N.G. stooge n always has been.
CelticKnight7758 1 year ago
Politically correct nonsense spewed from a Beta, feminized male, who's wife probably sleeps with other men.
ChiefNaiche 1 year ago
It KILLS me to see people arguing against David using information they are unknowingly reciting from HIS research. xD You are simply regurgitating information HE gave you.
Do you have /any/ idea who this man is? He is -the- pioneer of wolf study and behavior. He coined the term alpha; he wrote the book on it -- literally!
This video is a discussion of his understanding after 50+ years of experience; if David is saying the info is wrong, there isn't a soul on earth which more credibility.
aaurantia 1 year ago 29
@aaurantia *with not which.
aaurantia 1 year ago
@aaurantia we call those people "wolfaboos". they even think there are status like delta and such. and that they have human like "jobs"
kuwaizair 6 months ago
@Freyalovesherpets09 dude. who's the expert, you or him? hokay, good. you can shut up now
naamhier 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
the guy is full of shit. there is an innate energy that lives inside the alpha wolf... not who breeds. the wolf who breeds is determined by its energy, nothing to do wiht age or sex. full of shit
codythemagnificent 1 year ago
@codythemagnificent actually he's completely right. what the fuck are YOU talking about? innate energy?????? LOL. packs are always a family. get over it. wolves dont form stragetic platoons, hokay?
naamhier 1 year ago
Foxes mate for life n death,
wolves mate to mate, wolves are close to humans in banging anything that has a vag and then says bye thats why the "alpha" male gets to mate with any female he wants or all of them
DeathDealerFox 2 years ago
@DeathDealerFox No, it's dogs that mate for fun. Wolves are monogamous to the point of occasionally dying if their mate dies.
HoS777 1 year ago
@HoS777 so youre saying they are like Foxes they mate for life?
DeathDealerFox 1 year ago
@HoS777
You fucking idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!
Prove this statement!!!!
jongrive 1 year ago
@jongrive F***ing idiot? Really? Type in the keywords: WOLVES MONOGAMOUS in Google, dippy.
HoS777 1 year ago
When you've read "Leadership behavior in relation to dominance and reproductive status in gray wolves, Canis lupus" (Mech et al), "Alpha Status, Dominance, and Division of Labor in Wolf Packs" (Mech 1999) & "Leadership in Wolf, Canis lupus, packs." (Mech 2000) as well as his 2008 Article "What Ever Happened to the Term Alpha Wolf?" and of course the book he edited with Boitani in 2003 "Wolves..." you'll have all your answers. It's not my job to do your homework.
musicofnote1 2 years ago 13
as soon as i saw "do you have a slow or fast internet"
i nearly had the urge to chuck my computer at bill gates
technochook 2 years ago
and wolves are solitary to, until they find a mate and have offspring. Besides, dogs are NOT wolves. Dogs do not form extended nuclear families. They mate, go their separate ways and mother dog raises the pups. Groups of dogs in the wild do not form stable groups, but rather come together territorially, but only temprarily without leader. Read the literature by Coppinger, Semyonova and others! Neither dogs nor wolves have a leader by whatever name exerting dominace over other family members.
musicofnote1 2 years ago
@musicofnote1 Your a fool, you've read books, i have seen shows, and you are wrong. What happens when there is a kill? The "breeding male and female" don't exert dominance on the others in the pack? They don't bite and growl and wrestle the other wolves that try to eat first? What happens when the male gets old and another wolf wants to mate? Challengers from within the pack aren't put in their place and the alpha male isn't ousted if defeated for mating rights? Watch a god damn film retard.
peerpressure1999 2 years ago
"Your a fool, you've read books, i have seen shows, and you are wrong."
Well, that's quite an intellectual stand you've got. Have you read Dr. Mech's 1999 study? Have you read the anthology of other studies he edited in 2003? Are they ALL wrong, just because you saw a film?
Really?
You're right and everyone else is wrong. Do you know what they call that?
musicofnote1 2 years ago 4
@musicofnote1 You still haven't addressed the points I made. What is all that behavior that I previously mentioned if not a fight for and control of dominance/alpha male status in the pack?
peerpressure1999 2 years ago
Dogs mate for fun, wolves mate for life, your theory is incorect.
sesshygal 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"But a outside male can challenge the alpha, can't he? "
ahhh, how can anyone challenge the Alpha, when there is no Alpha?
And did you actually listen to Dr. Mech. wolves travel in extended nuclear families, not packs. Just like people live in (sometimes extended) nuclear families, not packs.
musicofnote1 2 years ago
But a outside male can challenge the alpha, can't he?
jebustjr 2 years ago
The mating pair is the "head honcho" pair, they lead the pack. So why are we not calling the "mating pair" alfa anymore? to me the word "alfa" means leader, and the mating pair are the leaders.......
powerpawsagility007 2 years ago
No, because the term "alpha" implies that an individual wolf used dominance or aggression to rise to top of the pecking order, when in fact there is no pecking order, and dominance or aggression is not used to establish the "alpha" role. The "mating pair" happens naturally with breeding. It's more a "family" of wolves than a "pack".
misterniko171 2 years ago 4
@misterniko171 Okay, we aren't calling it alfa because of the negative conotation then? I agree that parents have a big role, I just confused with the wording in the video. Thanks for answering my question. I'm still going to call it a pack though hahaha.
powerpawsagility007 2 years ago
Yep, pretty much. It's pretty much a mass confusion as to the TRUE meaning of particular words such as "alpha", "beta", "pack", etc etc.
The most important complication I think is the way people train their dogs when they think they need to be "alpha" over their dog, when in fact they should view their dog as part of the family and on an equal level with them. Dominance is not necessary to properly train dogs.
misterniko171 2 years ago
Leo provides some new info regarding wolf pack mentality, but regardless - one or two wolves have to take the leadership role. Call them Mommy or Daddy, whatever... one (or two) are ultimately responsible for the pack and maintaining order. Most dog owners don't keep a group of dogs all descending from the same parents. Within the human's
"pack" the human must take the position of Food Provider, Rule Maker & Enforcer, Leader, Caretaker. Our word for that is "Alpha". Get used to it.
TCDOA 2 years ago
@TCDOA The point is not that the word "alpha" is so bad in itself - it's the idea that you need to physically intimidate the dog out of bad behaviors. The old theory based on flawed studies was that you needed to roll the dog over and yell at him or choke him to get him to behave. That kind of training is the problem, not the word itself.
veganallie 2 years ago 3
Funny, all my jindo needed from me was real conviction in my voice, rather than the requesting tone I once used. Completely changed his life (and probably saved it as he used to autonomously decide which people and dogs posed a threat to our family.
suzyncub 2 years ago
cool guy
Anuvhurf 2 years ago 3
Alpha wolf would be a good name for a rockband.
Daithiwolf 2 years ago 3
This has been flagged as spam show
but in order to mate with the females, a wolf needs to be alpha...
serkre1 2 years ago
Glad we got that straighted out! But what about Beta Cats?
eatnogoat 2 years ago 5
Not typical, since cats are more solitary.
BobUnderhill 2 years ago 2
Cool to see someone able to admit a mistake or even if not a mistake a lack of knowledge in the past.
ManVsSelf 2 years ago 69
Well, some would call that "science" ;)
Miscskies 2 years ago 27
@ManVsSelf That's what science is all about...we learn more every day :)
googleisshittoss 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Also, it's hilarious that you go through all my comments and vote them negative, as if that makes you the winner. ???
And you cackle that you are in a phd program, in what, kindergarden behavior?
I'm so offended that you voted my comments down. *LOL
packmentality 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I didn't vote anyone's comments negative, you assuming moron. Look --- you're no longer worth my time: anyone who states that they forgot more than someone else will ever know, is, without fail, a pompous jerk with, typically, no real education. I've debated your kind before, and I won't waste any more of my precious time with you.
keeg021985 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Take a look in the mirror junior!
Elitist goofs like you are a dime a dozen. You start something with someone, they push back, and you whine like a baby!
Good luck in play land, let me know when you actually observe a wild wolf.
packmentality 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
If you study canine Ethology, then we should be on the same page, I don't quite remember why you challenged me, but so far you haven't explained our differences, other than you babbling about dynamics. Have you ever seen a wild wolf interact? Then talk to me.
I agreed with the Dr.'s comment, but felt he was mincing words pertaining to Alpha. Is that UR bone to pic?
Good luck in your studies, help stop aerial hunting.
packmentality 2 years ago
Keeg,
Keep one more thing in mind. Yellowstone wolves were not the original wolves of that area. They were originally brought in from elsewhere and starting up several packs that did not originate with family members only.
The dynamics in Yellowstone are greatly different than almost any other area that wild wolves occupy.
packmentality 2 years ago
I think YOU need to read the science on this. You're the one that is wrong. It appears you're making this up as you go along. I happen, by the way, to be in a ph.d program in animal ethology.
keeg021985 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
How much time in the field do you have and where? Have you ever seen a wolf in the wild, other than BBC?
Telling me you are in a PHD program doesn't bolster your failed argument. As Dr. Mech states, he has made mistakes so you sort of shoot yourself in the foot over that remark! *LOL
I'll await your enlightenment with baited breathe
packmentality 2 years ago
Thank you, Dr. Mech. It's been almost 20 years since I did Wolf Tracking through Earthwatch in Ely, MN. Dr. Mech was one of the advisers of the research project (tracked radio collared wolves 24 hrs/day via triangulation using 2 vans) I still plan to get back to Ely and revisit the International Wolf Center - Thanks for all your good wolf research and teachings.
Jeanne5442 2 years ago
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This is just plain stupid.
Alpha simply means "one". It never means fighting unless a outside Wolf comes in and over throws a leader of a pack.
I can't figure where he figures this rarely happens. It happens in Yellowstone, that's for sure!
I'm also trying to figure out who he's playing to. Anyone who studies wolves whether you are College Degreed or lucky to have had great experiences with excellent Biologist who study them daily as he did, and have made seeking the truth about wildlife.
packmentality 2 years ago
I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. First, the term 'alpha,' as it was used regarding wolf packs, implied a leader who became the head of the pack by aggression and constant bullying --- and we now know (actaully, have known) that's not how a wolf pack leader is made. Second, outsider wolves NEVER take over an established pack, which in wolf terms simply means a group of related wolves. Third, this guy is way more than just 'college degreed,' that THE wolf biologist -Dr.Mech.
keeg021985 2 years ago 4
Where has that ever been taught? I never heard that Alpha meant by force. That has been implied, especially within Packs that are not fully made of family members only.
I think this is in agreement with Dr. Mech. Just misunderstood by many, including you!
You are pretty much wrong on every point. Outsiders have become part of "Packs" and some later have taken over as Alpha.
The meaning of Alpha means "one", that's all.
c'mon Keeg', stop being afraid, and read!
packmentality 2 years ago
You obviously know very little about wolves and certainly have never read any of the early studies (those that we know know had many erroneous conclusions). Although I'm limited in my time at this moment, I'll happily expound on all this later.
keeg021985 2 years ago
I'm comprehending what Dr. Mech is saying, you are not. Sorry but I would go back and listen carefully and read my reply even more carefully.
I'm not sure why you chose me to attack, but you thought wrong!
packmentality 2 years ago
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*LOl
I have forgotten more than you'll ever learn my friend. I have spent a great deal of my life studying them. I have read many dissertations on the subject, from a variety of sources, one being Dr. Mech.
Science evolves, but it's who's collecting that data, why, and to what end? Grants keep studies going, sometimes even when they shouldn't. The term alpha is being misunderstood by many if they think it means anything other than leader, Mom/Pop, or most dominant.
Mech agrees. You don't ?
packmentality 2 years ago
I never spoke to the issue of what 'alpha' referred to, but it does not have anything to do with being the 'most dominant,' since so called dominance in a wolf pack is dynamic, just as is the leader of resource aquisition activity. Alpha only refers to the mating pair, and has nothing to do with behavior.
keeg021985 2 years ago 3
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Where do you study at??? The three terms I gave are interactive. You are babbling over words ???
packmentality 2 years ago
I love people who assert that they've forgotten more than someone will ever learn. First, that's highly improbable, if not impossible; second, I know a great deal about wolves, since my area of study is canine ethology; third, my ph.d advisor is a former student of dr. Mech's, and he has spent a lot of time in Ely, MN on several projects
keeg021985 2 years ago
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I love people who assert that a friend of a friend of a friend studied a friend. I have spent a great deal in Ely, Yellowstone, Jasper, Alberta, and most of the western regions of the Rockies. When one starts showing their laundry list of credentials to win a argument, it shows weakness.
While you talk of who your advisor knows, take a stroll through predator country JR. , and bring a journal.
I do wish you luck, and advise you to get your boots dirty before you start lecturing.
packmentality 2 years ago
Last sentence in my previous post should have read:
Third, this guy is way more than just 'college degreed,' for he is THE wolf biologist -Dr.David Mech. Also, nothing with wild wolves in Yellowstone is different from wild wolves anywhere else. The only documented hierarchy conflicts have been with artificially assembled 'packs; ' in other words, wolves from different family packs pulled from their original packs and thrown together with wolves from other family packs.
keeg021985 2 years ago
Dr. Mech even speaks of the difference between Yellowstone packs and packs of other regions. Do you listen to ALL the info, or just what soothes your agenda.
I don't care whether you agree with me or not, you should put forth actual facts, not YOUr misguided theories.
Dr.Mech is the man! but he too got caught up in use of words, and for some misguided reason, people like you only comprehend a small amount of what he's saying.
packmentality 2 years ago
Love this and hope that more ppl will see this.
mykorrhiza86 2 years ago
im the alpha female in my pack of friends. or at least..
thats what they call me.
not that id mate with the alpha male.
we do joke about that.
Oreoreogirl 2 years ago
you must be the motherhen, the one who will cockblock.. an obstacle to disarm so to spea
RSixBoy 2 years ago
Thanks a lot from Spain Dr David. It´s very important for our
Mostachman 3 years ago
You do realize this is basically a matter of nomenclature right? and that it only applies to natural wild wolf packs. Unrealated wolves when put together still form the alpha wolf system.
Some people are acting like little wolf democracies are being formed and that dogs are now equal to people
taranakinz 3 years ago 3
Thank you so much for posting this. I hope people start understanding wolves better, that will have strong repercurssions on dogs, positive ones!
claudiahoyle 3 years ago 3
Thank god this information is getting out there in a more accessible medium. Thank you, David! :D
aaurantia 3 years ago