The Welfare State

[Karateworm]

A Britain without the welfare state would be a horrid, horrid place. The structuring of a society that promotes freedom, happiness and progression is far more complicated than "a thief came along and stole something". A world where we are totally dependent of "market forces" would be a truly unpleasant one. Eugh.

[HairyChestnuts]

@Karateworm A free society cannot exist in a welfare state. The last sixty years has proven that. Britain managed to get through the second world war without a welfare state or an NHS, yet people weren't left to die in the streets. But knowledge of such things has been eroded by years of socialist propaganda that has indoctrinated the public into believing they cannot live without the state to nurse maid them.

[ORACLE063]

Europe.... Serfs for a 1000 yrs.... Serfs for a 1000 more..... thanks for peddling your crap on my side of the pond. Most of us were trying to get away from ur bullshit.

[HairyChestnuts]

@ORACLE063 You had the chance to create a brave new world of freedom after the war of independance, don't blame us if you flushed that chance down the toilet. The US constitution was the finest document ever written, but it was US politicians that decided to ignore it and erode your hard won liberty. And it has been the US people that have sat back and allowed them to do it. My country is shit because it always was, what's your excuse?

[DarcPrynce]

Well said! I couldn't agree with you more. Well, actually I could agree a bit more, but if I did you'd just end up getting a swelled head over it, and before long you'd likely run for public office... and where does that ever get anyone? By the way, smashing tunic you've got there. You know, you don't see many tunics like that anymore. Pity really, because I happen to think it makes a marvelous fashion statement.

[HairyChestnuts]

@DarcPrynce Cheers, I made the tabbard myself. One of the most valuble lessons I learnt in the army was sewing. Soldiers have to look after themselves because mum isn't around to patch our trousers or sew buttons on ;-)

[NubSaibot]

Excellent!

[toadabc]

We Americans can waite to go down the path of ruin that Britian is experiencing. Master thief Obama thinks that all money is really his to begine with, so why should we complain as long as we get a little back.

[JusticeSeeker1000]

Welfare needs to be scrapped. It doesn't do anyone any good, it discourages work, and it's a huge injustice to the hard working lower/ working classes who often earn less in work, than they would on the dole. It's disgusting. My rule, 1 year on welfare and you have to do community service. 5 years on welfare and it's taken away from you. Maybe that will encourage the yobs to actually "job seek"

[TheElasticJesus]

That if employers looked after their workers and paid decent wages the workers could all go private and 'bobs-your-uncle' - end of welfare state.

Trouble is, the richest 10% dont want to pay taxes or give decent wages

because in this great multicultural land of ours the first dissenting voice is replaced by Johnny Warsaw.

And if you say I'm wrong then ask yourself:

Did any government ever pay the £80,000 a year that the British soldier is really worth? Plus extra noughts.

[TheElasticJesus]

Okay Mr Selfish. Heres how it really works.

We scrap the welfare state on proviso that no businessman can ever again make a fast buck from paying his lowest workers the lowest wages so he can fund his Aston Martin.

That way workers can all go private and pay their own health insurance.

Oh but no, Mr Selfish wont allow that...

Its tantamount to COMMUNISM & Socialism & Darth Vaderism.

How dare we plebs suggest that the machines only run when workers are around to switch them on?

[HairyChestnuts]

What are you talking about?

[highdesertutah]

That sword is probably illegal in sorry old England.

[GoldenbanjoDJ]

I agree with this video. The Welfare State is ridiculous.

[HairyChestnuts]

The welfare indoctrination has gone on too long. The strong brave independent people that waged war against the nazis are a distant memory. The modern day British sheep are a pale immitation at best. They can't imagine a world in which they actually have to take care of themselves. Anyone that tries to explain self responsibility is met with utter confusion. Such a notion simply does not compute in their brainwashed minds.

[stalionchris1]

This is why all the successful people are leaving the country and all the bums are moving in and scrounging money off the government i.e. tax payers. Therefore the rich leave, which means they dont pay their tax which means less for benefits which means recession.

I have always wondered what motivation people have for success when you can get the same for free whilst sitting at home doing nothing... and they wonder why the number of people on benefits are so high :/ hmm tricky one...

[Utubestolemylife]

The commonest element in the universe is stupidity.

- Frank Zappa

[ChrisKnott]

I don't think anyone (intelligent) claims that the government is being generous when it gives benefits. It is being just. The generosity clearly lies with the citizens who pay the taxes gladly (or knowingly vote for these taxes).

[cookdave]

No Chris, citizens don't gladly pay taxes. They're forced to othrwise the state will lock them up. There's nothing just about this.

[ChrisKnott]

@cookdave I'm sorry, I disagree. The just thing to do is use technology and invention to try and overcome random inequalities in the world.

You hear stuff about people being "self made", yeah right; who taught you to read and write, kept cities safe, built roads, kept the water running etc...? Let's see Alan Sugar build up £800 mil from a village in Burkino Faso (if he lives beyond 5).

Taxes and aid help level the playing field. If you are in a position to pay taxes, congrats you lucked out.

[cookdave]

You disagree? Well why don't you decide to stop paying your council tax and put my claim to the test.

If the state is creating all these undeserving Alan Sugars as you claim then all the more reason to cut off their funding. I don't think its right to divert money to the rich, yet the state does exactly that.

[ChrisKnott]

?

I guess you misunderstood me, I'm saying the exact opposite of cutting public spending. Absolutely we should create as many healthly, educated, safe and free people as possible. I am just saying that these people shouldn't then go on Youtube and complain about being robbed, when the system has clearly created the fantastic world and life they are enjoying.

If you want to live like a gorilla, without a state, go set up cave in the Andes. Let me know when you invent broadband.

[cookdave]

Reverting to the old "you don't love everything the state does so why don't you live in Somalia" argument eh? Havn't seen that one before.

The state lies, the state steals, the state kills, the state restricts freedom, the state makes people poorer. By doing all these things its going way beyond its basic remit which is to uphold private property and protect the borders (and our state can't even do that they're so useless)

The state needs massive reform. Only a fool would disagree.

[ChrisKnott]

So you do agree taxation is necessary, and not theft! (Unless you think these tasks can be done for free)

And also, this is the only duty of the state? What about building roads and lamposts, phone and internet networks, water and electricity grids?

There are some things that only a 'good' monopoly can achieve effectively.

I don't disagree that the state kills, lies etc. But water kills and destroys - it is still necessary and on balance, good.

My only complaint was calling tax "stealing"

[cookdave]

Taxation as its currently implemented is stealing.

If people want state benefits then why don't they just pay for the ones that they benefit from? The state dosn't have to make a nuisance of itself just to get funding.

The most effective way to do this is to implement a land tax. This would stabilise the housing market and give the state a stable and sustainable source of funding. Also, if they wanted to increase the tax base they would have to spend that money usefully. Not waste it on tat.

[ChrisKnott]

Here's an example. I suffer from Haemophilia, it's a genetic bleeding disorder that I have through no fault of my own.

However, it barely affects me. This is because I get injections from the NHS. The treatment costs about £50,000 a year. How on earth could I pay this?

Luckily, through the systems we've built, we can't (yet) stop the random pain thrown up by the world, but we can spread it out from 1 in 10000 being in intense agony, to 10000 in 10000 paying 1.3p a day

Theft or fairness?

[cookdave]

Whilst I sympathise with your ailment, logically speaking I still have no obligation to be forced into paying for the treatment of others. (If you think you can make that case then please do)

If I accept that you have you're indeed correct then I open myself up to have everyone's costs forced upon me. This is infact what is happening and why the country is in such a mess. Pensions? I'm expected to pay for. Benefits? ditto. Bank bailouts, the housing market etc.

Socialism is wrong.

[ChrisKnott]

Surely a better world is one where random suffering is (if it can't be completely defeated) burdened evenly among everyone?

You would cancel NHS funding for Helixate, then? Putting 5000 Britons in severe pain and saving you (and everyone else, of course) 1.3p a day? 40p and month?

Is this a better, more just society in your opinion?

Do you think by stopping the NHS funding for this treatment and issuing a tiny rebate you make Britain a (slightly) better country?

(honest questions btw)

[cookdave]

If the costs were as little as this then morally it would still be wrong but the burden would be tolerable.

The state doesn't work like this though. So everyone says "OK, take a portion of our income to pay for the NHS" and the state hears "Its fine to take everyone's money from them and spend it as we see fit as long as they get the odd hosipital"

Do you think its ok to steal from people just so you can get what you want?

If people feel sad or lonely or in pain its not my fault!!

[ChrisKnott]

@cookdave ...right, but it is not their fault either that's the point.

"it would still be wrong"?! Wow, you are coming across like a bit of an arse to the good people of the Youtube community...

We have invented systems that can do *massive* good for mild inconvenience. It is not a political thing, it is just an efficient solution to a problem.

I agree entirely governments waste money. I was arguing that tax in theory is justisfied, not theft.

This video was saying tax in theory was theft.

[cookdave]

Tax is theft; thats the reality. Because you benefit from having your costs placed onto other people you think the current system is justified. If you could get past your emotional attachment to the state then you might be able to se it for what it really is.

Here's the 101. The state points a gun to your head and asks you to cough up else face the consequences.

Is this your vision of a group of people doing "massive good for mild inconvenience"?

Sounds like extortion to me.

[ChrisKnott]

@cookdave Yes, this is the vision, as the amount demanded is very small compared to the results achieved.

This is the joy of capitalism. It allows this effective skimming and summing. It would be impossible to skim, say 1 minute of surgery from everybody; but with capitalism it *IS* possible to skim 1 minute of surgery's worth of money, which can then be summed and paid to a surgeon.

Perhaps I am explaining poorly.

Never mind, I will give up. It seems like you won't understand.

*sigh*

[cookdave]

You're describing the joys of a stable money supply. We're not talking about monetary policy though, our debate is about the effects of the UK's fiscal policy.

What a lot of people don't get is that although state services are essential the way the state raises its revenue is very damaging. This isn't my gloss on it, its economic fact. What they do, in effect, is to penalise work and productivity when they're the very things we should encourage.

Socialism fails because of its contradictions.

[HairyChestnuts]

@cookdave I've only just noticed your battle of witts with ChrisKnott. I don't get alerts to comments if they're replies to other people. Great effort, but sadly the likes of him are blind to the truth. He sees only the benefits he personally receives, and not the cost to others. Even his £50,000 (which sounds like a rip off) a year injections he admits he couldn't afford for himself so thinks it a good thing to force others to foot his bill.

[cookdave]

@HairyChestnuts Thanks. I've pretty much given up on politics after the dismal election result, UKIP didn't get a single friggin' seat. I deleted all my political links and so I havn't seen your recent work.

My verdict: The British public will fight tooth and nail to be robbed by the dead hand of the state, and I will no longer waste my time fighting to right this wrong.

If the public want to be taken advantage of so badly then I'll play my part to ensure they get what they want. Fuck em.

[HairyChestnuts]

@cookdave I often feel the same way, but then I realise, if not me then who. I keep speaking up because I know I'm right. I know the gullible sheep won't listen, but one day they will. And when that day comes, they'll look back on the likes of us and realise we were right all along.

[cookdave]

Hairychestnuts that was brilliant!

Probably the most acurate description of socialism I've ever heard. Its so simple that even socialists themselves would be able to understand it.

[draigan]

If you know it all why are you so fucking miserable? I suppose thats all the stupid people fault. pwned.

[DancingTigerBait]

LOL...

And, so, I've come to the conclusion that everyone is _stupid_.

Concise. Succinct.  Pithy.

LOL. Funny.

[bodicatudor]

HairyChestnuts

lolol...nice one..

[TandLindustrys]

can be a ripoff but it helps in ways that i dont have to walk over bodys in the street on my way to work, or fear really being burgled which would make insurence companys non profitable n pointless, the problem with it is the minority mutliplying, i see 13 year olds pushing prams now what we need is child tax, if you really want a baby and are prepared then your prepared to pay £25,000 per child born else seek abortion advice, im against abortion but to many are dragged up these days its crewl

[HairyChestnuts]

Another example of taxing away peoples ability to look after themselves. If everyone that had a child had to pay £25,000 per child. They would short of the hard earned money they need to look after their child. This would deter sensible hard working people from having children, while encouraging others to give birth in secret.

[TandLindustrys]

well then i think thats sad , when it comes to cars everyone has 3 or 4 on there garden ,put a similar price tag on children and they'd rather drag them up in secret, i thought it was quite cheap some pay a hell of alot more just to get access

[TandLindustrys]

id perfer it cos 25,000 over 10 years adds up to enough to cover there education and uni debts so would work out alot cheaper for me in the long run , no worry of fighting for fathers rights and also cant hang around shops acting like they wasnt wanted

[MzProgressive]

Not laughing - sorry.

Stick to the anti-tobacco diatribes - would ya?

[HairyChestnuts]

The welfare state is responsible for the UK smoking ban. It is impossible to oppose one without opposing the other.

[HairyChestnuts]

MzP, you removed your comment but not before Youtube emailed me a copy. Welfare states such as Britains breed fascism. When everyone is forced to support the welfare of everyone, it is only natural that they would become hostile toward those they percieve as taking more than their fair share.

Smokers are branded as a healthcare burden, therefore everyone else feel justified to persecute smokers.

[HairyChestnuts]

And if that isn't clear enough. Only a couple of days ago, a supporter of the NHS told me that he thought disabled children should not be permitted to live because they are a drain on resourses.

[MzProgressive]

Welfare programs, on the other hand, are paid through TAXES. In the States, there is actually MORE paid out in "Corporate Welfare" (in the form of huge TAX BREAKS and "incentives" - or gov't subsidies, than there actually Paid out to the needy! If there is greed in fascism, it may be because BUSINESS would rather take a larger piece of that "corporate pie" - and resents that part of the ELECTORATE that they are unable to Steal from!

[MzProgressive]

Hmm I removed it because it needed editing .. and was rushing to buy smokes before the tobacconist closed!

"Welfare states breed fascism." Now there's an interesting stance. Fascism is defined is illicit liason between business and government - whereby the needs of the people are ignored. I don't think "welfare" has a thing to do with this, because it is profits that concern business, and when they "own" politicians, as they DO here, they dictate laws to benefit profits.

(more below)

[MzProgressive]

(Aw shoot - this got bolluxed up because I was trying to outsmart the new youtube format!)

[MzProgressive]

BTW Hairy - Over here the right wingers are SO UPSET that our Gov't would have ANY involvement in health insurance, that their "religious right" just managed to get the INITIAL offering for a health plan, passed by Congress, SANS abortion coverage for the poorest of the poor (!)

And womens' rights activists are fuming!

[MzProgressive]

If you think that "welfare health care" will kill the weakest of society - it's not likely here - not with our Christian Taliban in force (as per example above!). But the way things stand here NOW - our PRIVATE CORPORATE INSURERS are effecting just THAT! By denying health care to all but the healthy. Many pay for insurance for years, and get either "dropped" or DENIED treatment, the moment they are diagnosed with cancer. Breast cancer, especially - their CEOs are an esp chauvinist lot!

[HoustonTeaParty]

IF the senate approves this bill without altering it neither will we. Yes, the old remove it from the pay BEFORE you get it. That is what they do here with taxes, this prevents civil disobedience. I predict this shall result in some rather UNcivil disobedience. Since, over half our population objects to this radical change in our Health system. But I am no historian.

[HoustonTeaParty]

Lib Brits- Authentic taxes would promote general welfare NOT provide specific welfare. For you illiterate types the words do sound the similar but are different in meaning. This is the typical liberal argument against us in the states that we are against taxes. NO we are against the government stepping outside its constitutional bounds and becoming a nanny state. "HEY HEY what ya gonna do when the nanny state goes super nanny on you?" A 5 year prison sentence for not buying health insurance!

[HairyChestnuts]

We don't have the option of not paying. The government removes our Nationional Insurance Contributions from our pay before we get it. For those that are self employed, non payment is an offence. The option is pay up or prison.

[HoustonTeaParty]

Thought that was the White tower in the back. On a tour there recently learned about the careful care given to the ravens. I asked the Yeoman guard there how many grandchildren he had Christened on the grounds there. He said, "One" I wanted to say, "What if you only allowed the ravens to have that many offspring? How would that work?" The Nanny state has made children of British men. Grow up, get married, get busy and make more BRITS you gits. Or the raven shall quothe "Nevermore."

[AmericanAvenger1]

Bravo! People who champion the "nanny-state" really do have the minds of children! Keep up the great work, Sir Williams!

[somethingfishietx]

Upon reflection, I think you have a Rex Harrison thing going on in this one. Nice!

[MBChB1961]

Thank you for your brilliant and thoughtful videos

[LieutenantGibGib]

Can you explain why this is an argument against the welfare state system and not simply against taxes themselves?

[HairyChestnuts]

Because this video is an argument against the welfare state system. I can't argue against everything in the whole country in a single video. It's only four and a half minutes long for crying out loud.

[LieutenantGibGib]

Haha! Sorry, I meant I can't see how this is specifically arguing against the welfare state system since what you're saying could be applied to taxes in general.

[fashionhistorylover]

@HairyChestnuts Wouldn't all taxes be considered theft though? What if a person is a pacifist and don't want to pay for national defense? What about an anarchist that does not believe in government at all? Is it theft if everybody paid into the system and have the same safety net?

[HairyChestnuts]

@fashionhistorylover All taxes are theft if non concentual.

[rudrudager]

@HairyChestnuts surely even you must agree that any government must take a fraction of income as tax regardless of consent, for provision of massive social goods such as infrastructure, universal education ect that could not be provided effeciently by a market. If not, please look up the free rider principal on why goverment 'theft' is necissary to stop society griding to a halt.

[HairyChestnuts]

@rudrudager "massive social goods such as infrastructure, universal education ect ". What is massive social goods? Anything that is good for society, can be created by society through concentual tax. A prime example is car tax. Those that choose to own and drive vehicles on roads, contribute to the construction and maintanace of those roads. While those that choose not to enjoy the luxury of car ownership are not forced to pay for others. Or at least, that's how it should work.

[SuperGrouper]

My faith in Britain has been restored.  Thank you.

[somethingfishietx]

HA!!! I SO LOVE YOU FOR THIS!!

I'm still laughing hideously while my daughter keeps coming in the room to check on me.

[HairyChestnuts]

There's plenty of Brits that will hate me. But I don't care, I never believed in trading my beliefs for popularity. That's what politicians do.

[johny344]

ditto my friend

[mervintoot]

I would find it easier to pay tax if I was sure it was going to where it was needed.

However it doesn't. It funds layers of PC bureaucracy in all levels of the public sector, fake charities and quangos.

Worst of all, 40 million a day is robbed from the Brits and goes to the EU... for even more layers of middle management, quangos etc etc.

Thanks to Lisbon (and Gordon) that figure increases drammatically next year.

I've yet to experience a single benefit. Or meet anyone who has!

[HairyChestnuts]

Did this video play to the end Merv? Because it doesn't on my computer, it jams at 2.46

[mervintoot]

Yep - works all the way this end. Try kicking your computer and swearing at it. Works every time for me.

[HairyChestnuts]

Cheers, I had been thinking of deleting it and uploading again. I'll just do as you say and beat the shit out my laptop.

[Kunguskang]

@mervintoot The welfare state is wholly neccessary. It protects our society against ruthless market forces. The market economy is based on profit. What happens when this competition for resources, outsourcing, wars, poverty, economic imperalism all erupts and we face another finanical meltdown? Does it it concern you that the market economy is incentivised to go to war? What happens when we have a crash like in 1929, 1990s or the late 2006? Well, the state must intervene and save the day again!

[mervintoot]

@Kunguskang When the State intervenes, that means it's the politicians (who screwed it up in the first place) intervening. They themselves in effect operate on a market force level, because their position and status depends wholly on the way they market themselves from the perspective of their personal self interest - i.e. they continue to lie, stay in power and nothing changes. Example: Who de-regulated the banks? The politicians. It all went horribly wrong. Who suffered? Them or the tax payer?