I notice MANUTD4LIFE has went all silent. I wonder why ?! lol I think the whole world was on El Gran Senor for the Derby after his brilliant 2,000 Guineas win. People often criticise Greville Starkey (wrongly imo ) for his misjudgement on Dancing Brave but, Pat Eddery, who was a masterful jockey, made a real hash of this day. He was on the best horse by far and should have won.
Tell you what ; instead of arguing with me about personal favourites, which is pointless and proves nothing - or acccusing me of ignorance ( which I find laughable ) , why dont you join The Racing Forum co. uk. and impart your great wisdom to our other " ignorant " members there. It would be interesting to find out how most of them view Shergar in the grand scheme of things. Sean Boyce, Barry Dennis, Lydia Hislop and a few racing journalists are just a few of our members. Well ?
It must also be pointed out that Shergar's winning time of 2mins .44 seconds was one of the slowest winning Derby times ever. Workforce's time was an incredible 13 seconds faster.
@ThefightingCelt Shergar yes he lost in the leger but it was SMS biggest mistake as he didnt stay 1m6 if he had gone to the Arc instead he would have hosed up, times are completely irelavent as we all know it is all ground dependent, had shergar been in that race yesterday he would have won with ease as for Workforce todays french derby has just highlighted how poor a derby yesterdays race was with cape blaco who beat workforce fair and square in the dante was unplaced in
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Do some research. Find out why Workforce lost at York, then watch him mowing down the pacemaker and then sprinting away from him in record time. Remember, Shergar only sauntered home (13secs slower ) because of the sl the inabilty of the others to match strides with him - even at that slow pace. After that, go study all Sea Bird's races and Nijinsky's races, then get back to me - when you gain more knowledge of those behemoths of the turf.
@ThefightingCelt you clearly lack knowledge i was very much around in the days of Sea Bird i was actualy at epsom to watch his derby win in 1965 so dont tell me i need to gain more knowledge as i know far more than you do, Workforce is a poor derby winner the only horse ever to lose in the dante to win and was the only horse to get past some no hoper (pacemaker) as ive told you time is irelavent as it was a bog when shergar won and he would have still won on fast ground
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Then you should know how good SB was - and realise that nearly all the racing experts rate Sea Bird (who won without coming off the bridle) well above Shergar. It was not a bog when Shergar won. Check your facts. There was cut but not much. I remember the racing press were less than enthused about his King George win, where he had to be kept up to his work to win. Contrast his King George victory with that of numerous others. Workforce IS one of the better Derby winners.
@ThefightingCelt I know how good SB was and know he would have given shergar a run for his money but Shergar would have won, there are other horses who also would have beat SB the likes of Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard and the imortal Ribot who may be the only other horse who could have matched Shergar and perhaps beat him but it would have been close, please dont argue with someone who knows a little more than you
@MANUTD4LIFE171 You are obviously on the wind up mate. You haven't a clue. Stick to listening to rubbish like Metallica - you probably think they were better than Led Zeppelin too.
@ThefightingCelt I am on no wind up mate i dont like either Metallica or Led Zeppelin that would be my son on my computer, dont see why you are going down that road changing the subject, maybe its because you have no suitable answer to my last comment as you are well out of your depth in this discussion and are being made to look ver ignorant
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Sure mate ! I believe you, thousands wouldn't ! You're the man who thinks Sea Bird and Secretariat were average horses. Jeez, what a muppet ! I rest my case. Away and stick on your Metallica albums and give us all peace.
@ThefightingCelt im not worried wether you believe me or not if i listened to Metallica (which is hardly a bad thing) i wouldnt care about saying so, please show me where i have said Secreteriat or Sea Bird are average perhaps you might want to read what iswritten before you post such drivel, saying one great horse is better than another doesnt mean i think there average, as for growing up if i grow up anymore il be dead as for the insults it just highlights your ignorance evn more
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Tell you what ; instead of arguing with me about personal favourites, which is pointless and proves nothing - or acccusing me of ignorance ( which I find laughable ) , why dont you join The Racing Forum co. uk. and impart your great wisdom to our other " ignorant " members there. It would be interesting to find out how most of them view Shergar in the grand scheme of things. Sean Boyce, Barry Dennis, Lydia Hislop and a few racing journalists are just a few of our members. Well ?
@ThefightingCelt lydia hislop the same women who doesnt know her facts, on friday claiming youmzain had finished 2nd in the arc on 2 occasions when everyone knows its 3 occasions, i would not listen to a word she said, anyhow im sure Sean Boyce will agree that Shergar was far more dominant over his opposition than Sea Bird was winning the Sandown classic trial by 10 lenghs the chester vase by 12 the derby by 10 the irish derby by 8 everytime slowing to a did SB ever show that sort of dominance
@MANUTD4LIFE171 I wouldn't bet on it. Sean knows his stuff. Sea Bird beat some very good horses - his form is outstanding - hence why Timeform rate him the best horse since their ratings began. Shergar beat a very poor bunch of 3 year olds. Granted, Cut Above improved enough to beat him in the Leger and Kalaglow proved a much stronger horse at four. His King George win was probably his strongest performance - in view of the better class horses he faced - He was made to work much harder in that
@ThefightingCelt What You must remember is the timeform ratings are biased to the 1960s as that was the years they first came out in, the greatest steeplechaser (according to timeform) Arkle 212 2nd best Flying Bolt 210 and 3rd best Mill House 193 all ran in the 60s and Sea Bird who raced at the same time as all of these in 1965 achieved 145 do you realy believe its just coincidence that all the top timeform horses all came from the 60s in jumps and flat
@MANUTD4LIFE171 No, you are wrong. Timeform started publications started in 1948 in Yorkshire. It was the brainchild of Phil Bull, who only ever questioned on rating; that of brigadier Gerard - but he was soon convinced by Reg Griffin that he was wrong to question it. As for Arkle; whether the 212 is high or not makes little difference - he still remains head and shoulders above them all. Consider also what Sea Bird's opponents achieved after he beat them - which indicates how classy he was.
@ThefightingCelt Well Timeform began on the jumps in the 60s anyways as there are no ratings for the likes of 3 time gold cup winner cottage rake who ran in the 50s, yes Arkle was a great horse but i still think Flyingbolt would have beat him if he had been given the opportunity to race him
@MANUTD4LIFE171 I have to disagree. Flyingbolt was a very exciting and classy horse but Arkle was better. Don't take my word on it. Pat Taaffe, who rode both, was asked who he thought would have won had they been allowed to run against each another. He said that if they had raced at 3m or over, he was confident that Arkle would always finish in front of Flyingbolt - Taaffe said " Arkle would have sat behind him and then would beaten him for speed every time."
@ThefightingCelt You ar definately wrong on this one Barry Brogan who was a rider for draper back then and a close friend of pat taffe has always maintained flyingbolt was better and he has claimed pat taffe told him flying bolt was the same here are a few quotes from interviews the racing post had with Barry Brogan, they will follow in my next post
@ThefightingCelt "In my view Flyingbolt was probably the best horse I ever rode - even better than Arkle. I honestly believe that he would have beaten Arkle in the 1966 Gold Cup if Tom Dreaper had allowed him to run."
In a subsequent interview with the Racing Post in December 2008, more than 25 years after the publication of his autobiography he confirmed his views
"For all Arkle's brilliance, I felt Flyingbolt was the better horse. If Pat Taaffe was alive, he'd tell you the same."
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Barry Brogan is not Pat Taaffe. I have written as well as filmed evidence of Taaffe being interviewed. In all, he states emphatically that Arkle was the best horse he ever rode and was " in no doubt" that Arkle would have beaten Flyingbolt. Taaffe also said that Arkle had a superb temperament, whereas Flyingbolt was extremely bad tempered and fractious.
@MANUTD4LIFE171 It was Barry Brogan who made those comments - not Taaffe. Brogan actually rode Flyingbot when he moved from Dreapers yard to be trained in England - where he failed to re-capture the form he showed in Ireland. Tom Dreaper wanted to retire Flyingbolt as he didn't want to watch the horse deteriorate after his bout of brucellosis. Flyingbolt's owner disagreed and so he took him to England to Ken Olivers yard, where he remained in training.
@ThefightingCelt i will sign up to the forum your suggesting i tend to use BBC 606 for racing discussion are you not signed up to that, i feel it silly that we are arguing over such a petty matter so perhaps we should just forget about what has been said and agree to disagree on the matter
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Correct, as it's not about ignorance: it is, as you rightly allude to, about differences of opinions. Th RUK forum is the best British horse racing site on the internet - bar none. Richard Hoiles is also a member. Look forward to seeing you there and interacting with some very shrewd racing people.
@ThefightingCelt Shergar still won the King George by a comfortable 4 lenghs eased down but yes he had to work abit harder than he was used too but he still won with plenty in hand
nellie...it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
But easily good enough to beat a class field in the Irish Derby at the same distance with a different jockey ? He certainly was no 'dodge' as you put it ?
hindsight is a wonderful thing, the horse had never ran 1m4 so how was eddery supposed to know he wouldnt quite stay the trip to win, even then if the horse wasnt such a dodge and quickened up earlier the race could have been put to bed before secreto came to challenge, i dont think you can blame eddery, more the horse didnt quicken when he asked
i dont think you can blame pat eddery at all, el gran senor was a dodge eddery took him to the front and the horse didnt want to go on, then when secreto challenged him he wasnt good enough,
Nonsense None of Northern Dancers prodigy truly stayed a mile and a half yet Lester got them all home in the Derby face it Eddery made an absolute mess of that race.
@nellie1912 First things first pal eddery was every bit as capable as piggott...And was a far more likeable guy....Piggott was an arrogant nasty peice of work who never commanded any respect amongs his fellow jockeys....piggott would have had the same problem as eddery did of getting this dodge to go on and win the race....
@nellie1912 it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
@nellie1912 it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
@nellie1912 it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
@nellie1912 it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
@nellie1912 it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
@nellie1912 First things first i am not ur pal eddery every bit as good as piggott do me a favour. Dushyantor 1996 got into all sorts of trouble second 1997 silver patriarch left it to late second 2001 golan left it to late second. 1984 el gran senor in vincent own words the best i ever trained second versus piggott nine times derby winner
@nellie1912 you realy dont have a clue do you, you are saying EGS was the best horse vincent ever trained, you just cant make it up, i take it youve never heard of sir ivor or nijinsky, even golden fleece(the sun of nijinsky) who eddery also rode has always maintained that golden fleece was the best horse he ever sat on, he also rode el gran senor, work it out PAL
You obviously didn;t read what I said which Was that Vincent O Brien satated that El Gran senor was the best horse he had ever trained so its obviously Vincent who doesn;t have a clue. Interesting that Pat in his autobiobiography states that no jockey who ever threw his leg across a horse would have won those derbies on Roberto and The Minstrel
@nellie1912 show me proof of that i think you will find vincent mantained that he could not bring himself to choose who the best horse he ever trained was, all he said was it would have been between sir ivor or nijinsky, he couldnt split them, he never mentioned EGS, as for eddery he is a humble generaly nice guy, hes not going to start boasting hoe great he was because he is not that sort of charecter
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Simple Man U read his own autobiography written with his wife. I'm not disagreeing with you regarding pats capabilities in the saddle just he made a mess of this race as for your comment about sir Ivors arc this was actually his fourth defeat in a row and he was beaten by a better horse over one and a half vaguely Noble which makes Piggott getting him home in the washington over a mile and a half in heavy going two weeks later all the more brilliant. .
@nellie1912 if you want ti start bringing up edderys bad rides, what about lesters ride on nijinsky in the arc of 1970 which is regarded as one of the most infamous rides in history, only a disaster of a ride coulkd have got nijinsky beat and thats what it was, what about his rude on sir ivor innthe arc of 1968 also another terrible ride from piggot also getting a superstar beat that should have won easy
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Do you know anything about Race-riding? El Gran Senor was cantering , Pat had a double handful ,evberything else was off the bridle flat out and going nowhere! , Pat dissapointed the horse by not letting him down ,giving Secreto
a chance of a second wind,El Gran Senor then empied out , but still ran to the line dispite this.He was easily the best Colt in that race and one of the top 5 Colts in the last 30 years.
@thehorseshead You are another who doesnt have a clue.....el gran senor was a miler and he was beaten because he wasnt good enough at 1m4...Nothing to do with eddery he gave the horse every chance.....the horse didnt quicken when he asked him......
@thehorseshead as for el gran senor being top 5 in the last 30 years.....Another clueless comment...Have you ever heard of Shergar,Golden fleece,Dancing Brave,Dubai Millenium,Sea the stars,new aproach,montjeu,rock of gibralter,Hawkwing,Henrythenavigator or george washington just to name a few who would have all had the measure of this dodge
@thehorseshead why do you need to use such language you are clearly just some clueless kid, pat eddery also road golden fleece(the sun of nijinsky) ands he has maintained golden fleece was the best horse he ever rode better than el gran senor and easily won the derby on the bridle unlike that dodge el gran senor, that is proof that one of those horses were better, if you truly belive el gran senor was better than STS, Dubai millenium, montjeu then you clearly lack racing knowledge
@thehorseshead how do you mean watching munich, if you are having a pop about the munich air crash then you are clearly sick in the head, you obviously need help, football rivalry is fine but some things are going too far, you should be in broadmoor pal
@thehorseshead as for shergar it is more like el gran senor should not under any circumstances be mentioned in th same breath as shergar, shergar was a machine, i am old enough to have seen the sea birds, nijinskys of this world, but make no mistake shergar for me was the best ,EGS was no were near that standard, over 1m4 shergar was unstoppable, if elgran senor and secreto were in shergars derby they too would have been atleast 10 lenghs back probably more
@ThefightingCelt Sea Bird perhaps would have had a chance Nijinsky and Mill Reef would have been close, STS and Golden Fleece would have been miles behind and to say workforce who won one of the worst derbys ever when only he got past the pace maker just highlights your ignorance, Shergar was and always will be the best horse SMS has ever trained and Workforce will never be in the same class
@MANUTD4LIFE171@MANUTD4LIFE1 I was around then and backed Shergar in all his 3 yr old races, including the St Leger, where he didn't stay; beaten by Dick Hern's Cut Above. Shergar was a very good horse but do not accuse me of ignorance. My passion is horse racing and I can hold my own with most. Shergar was an out and out galloper - and he did not have the extra gears of the horses I named. Sea Bird and Nijinsky would have cantered past Shergar with ease. Workforce is better than Shergar !
@ThefightingCelt Sea Bird and Nijinsky would not have cantered past Shergar with ease you clearly lack racing knowledge to make such a ridiculous claim Shergar definately had gears, As for Workforce this is the bit that completely highlights your ignorance there is no way he would get anywere near Shergar if you suggested this to SMS you would have to pick him off the floor in laughter
@thehorseshead just 1 final point i very much doubt you know anything about racing if you can dare to suggest that the horses i have mentioned dont deserve to be mentioned in the same breath accept for shergar and dancing brave, Rock of gibralter was certainly el gran senors equal if not better over a mile, i also forgot to metion nashwan who was a guines derby and eclipse winner who also would have destroyed el gran senor, as for STS comon pal 6 G1 victorys
@MANUTD4LIFE171 GOULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE MATE. AS GOOD AS EL GRAN SENOR WAS HE WAS NO SHERGAR AND CERTAINLY NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS THE GREAT DANCING BRAVE.
@bigttim1 Yes Dancing Brave was a classy horse and perhaps the best horse to lose in a derby, he should have won, i would only rate Shergar and Golden Fleece as better horses from the 80s, Gold Fleece could have gone on to great things after the derby but he ended up with cancer which eventualy killed him so he never raced again, such ashame he was never able to race again as he was truely special
I notice MANUTD4LIFE has went all silent. I wonder why ?! lol I think the whole world was on El Gran Senor for the Derby after his brilliant 2,000 Guineas win. People often criticise Greville Starkey (wrongly imo ) for his misjudgement on Dancing Brave but, Pat Eddery, who was a masterful jockey, made a real hash of this day. He was on the best horse by far and should have won.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
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Tell you what ; instead of arguing with me about personal favourites, which is pointless and proves nothing - or acccusing me of ignorance ( which I find laughable ) , why dont you join The Racing Forum co. uk. and impart your great wisdom to our other " ignorant " members there. It would be interesting to find out how most of them view Shergar in the grand scheme of things. Sean Boyce, Barry Dennis, Lydia Hislop and a few racing journalists are just a few of our members. Well ?
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
It must also be pointed out that Shergar's winning time of 2mins .44 seconds was one of the slowest winning Derby times ever. Workforce's time was an incredible 13 seconds faster.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt Shergar yes he lost in the leger but it was SMS biggest mistake as he didnt stay 1m6 if he had gone to the Arc instead he would have hosed up, times are completely irelavent as we all know it is all ground dependent, had shergar been in that race yesterday he would have won with ease as for Workforce todays french derby has just highlighted how poor a derby yesterdays race was with cape blaco who beat workforce fair and square in the dante was unplaced in
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Do some research. Find out why Workforce lost at York, then watch him mowing down the pacemaker and then sprinting away from him in record time. Remember, Shergar only sauntered home (13secs slower ) because of the sl the inabilty of the others to match strides with him - even at that slow pace. After that, go study all Sea Bird's races and Nijinsky's races, then get back to me - when you gain more knowledge of those behemoths of the turf.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt you clearly lack knowledge i was very much around in the days of Sea Bird i was actualy at epsom to watch his derby win in 1965 so dont tell me i need to gain more knowledge as i know far more than you do, Workforce is a poor derby winner the only horse ever to lose in the dante to win and was the only horse to get past some no hoper (pacemaker) as ive told you time is irelavent as it was a bog when shergar won and he would have still won on fast ground
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Then you should know how good SB was - and realise that nearly all the racing experts rate Sea Bird (who won without coming off the bridle) well above Shergar. It was not a bog when Shergar won. Check your facts. There was cut but not much. I remember the racing press were less than enthused about his King George win, where he had to be kept up to his work to win. Contrast his King George victory with that of numerous others. Workforce IS one of the better Derby winners.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt I know how good SB was and know he would have given shergar a run for his money but Shergar would have won, there are other horses who also would have beat SB the likes of Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard and the imortal Ribot who may be the only other horse who could have matched Shergar and perhaps beat him but it would have been close, please dont argue with someone who knows a little more than you
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 You are obviously on the wind up mate. You haven't a clue. Stick to listening to rubbish like Metallica - you probably think they were better than Led Zeppelin too.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt I am on no wind up mate i dont like either Metallica or Led Zeppelin that would be my son on my computer, dont see why you are going down that road changing the subject, maybe its because you have no suitable answer to my last comment as you are well out of your depth in this discussion and are being made to look ver ignorant
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Sure ! Now go away.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Grow up !
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Sure mate ! I believe you, thousands wouldn't ! You're the man who thinks Sea Bird and Secretariat were average horses. Jeez, what a muppet ! I rest my case. Away and stick on your Metallica albums and give us all peace.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt im not worried wether you believe me or not if i listened to Metallica (which is hardly a bad thing) i wouldnt care about saying so, please show me where i have said Secreteriat or Sea Bird are average perhaps you might want to read what iswritten before you post such drivel, saying one great horse is better than another doesnt mean i think there average, as for growing up if i grow up anymore il be dead as for the insults it just highlights your ignorance evn more
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Tell you what ; instead of arguing with me about personal favourites, which is pointless and proves nothing - or acccusing me of ignorance ( which I find laughable ) , why dont you join The Racing Forum co. uk. and impart your great wisdom to our other " ignorant " members there. It would be interesting to find out how most of them view Shergar in the grand scheme of things. Sean Boyce, Barry Dennis, Lydia Hislop and a few racing journalists are just a few of our members. Well ?
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt lydia hislop the same women who doesnt know her facts, on friday claiming youmzain had finished 2nd in the arc on 2 occasions when everyone knows its 3 occasions, i would not listen to a word she said, anyhow im sure Sean Boyce will agree that Shergar was far more dominant over his opposition than Sea Bird was winning the Sandown classic trial by 10 lenghs the chester vase by 12 the derby by 10 the irish derby by 8 everytime slowing to a did SB ever show that sort of dominance
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 I wouldn't bet on it. Sean knows his stuff. Sea Bird beat some very good horses - his form is outstanding - hence why Timeform rate him the best horse since their ratings began. Shergar beat a very poor bunch of 3 year olds. Granted, Cut Above improved enough to beat him in the Leger and Kalaglow proved a much stronger horse at four. His King George win was probably his strongest performance - in view of the better class horses he faced - He was made to work much harder in that
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt What You must remember is the timeform ratings are biased to the 1960s as that was the years they first came out in, the greatest steeplechaser (according to timeform) Arkle 212 2nd best Flying Bolt 210 and 3rd best Mill House 193 all ran in the 60s and Sea Bird who raced at the same time as all of these in 1965 achieved 145 do you realy believe its just coincidence that all the top timeform horses all came from the 60s in jumps and flat
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 No, you are wrong. Timeform started publications started in 1948 in Yorkshire. It was the brainchild of Phil Bull, who only ever questioned on rating; that of brigadier Gerard - but he was soon convinced by Reg Griffin that he was wrong to question it. As for Arkle; whether the 212 is high or not makes little difference - he still remains head and shoulders above them all. Consider also what Sea Bird's opponents achieved after he beat them - which indicates how classy he was.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt Well Timeform began on the jumps in the 60s anyways as there are no ratings for the likes of 3 time gold cup winner cottage rake who ran in the 50s, yes Arkle was a great horse but i still think Flyingbolt would have beat him if he had been given the opportunity to race him
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 I have to disagree. Flyingbolt was a very exciting and classy horse but Arkle was better. Don't take my word on it. Pat Taaffe, who rode both, was asked who he thought would have won had they been allowed to run against each another. He said that if they had raced at 3m or over, he was confident that Arkle would always finish in front of Flyingbolt - Taaffe said " Arkle would have sat behind him and then would beaten him for speed every time."
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt You ar definately wrong on this one Barry Brogan who was a rider for draper back then and a close friend of pat taffe has always maintained flyingbolt was better and he has claimed pat taffe told him flying bolt was the same here are a few quotes from interviews the racing post had with Barry Brogan, they will follow in my next post
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt "In my view Flyingbolt was probably the best horse I ever rode - even better than Arkle. I honestly believe that he would have beaten Arkle in the 1966 Gold Cup if Tom Dreaper had allowed him to run."
In a subsequent interview with the Racing Post in December 2008, more than 25 years after the publication of his autobiography he confirmed his views
"For all Arkle's brilliance, I felt Flyingbolt was the better horse. If Pat Taaffe was alive, he'd tell you the same."
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Barry Brogan is not Pat Taaffe. I have written as well as filmed evidence of Taaffe being interviewed. In all, he states emphatically that Arkle was the best horse he ever rode and was " in no doubt" that Arkle would have beaten Flyingbolt. Taaffe also said that Arkle had a superb temperament, whereas Flyingbolt was extremely bad tempered and fractious.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt so your claiming Barry Brogan is lieing about a man who is dead
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 It was Barry Brogan who made those comments - not Taaffe. Brogan actually rode Flyingbot when he moved from Dreapers yard to be trained in England - where he failed to re-capture the form he showed in Ireland. Tom Dreaper wanted to retire Flyingbolt as he didn't want to watch the horse deteriorate after his bout of brucellosis. Flyingbolt's owner disagreed and so he took him to England to Ken Olivers yard, where he remained in training.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago 17
@ThefightingCelt cottage rake did run in the late 40s also before you pick me up on that :)
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt i will sign up to the forum your suggesting i tend to use BBC 606 for racing discussion are you not signed up to that, i feel it silly that we are arguing over such a petty matter so perhaps we should just forget about what has been said and agree to disagree on the matter
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Correct, as it's not about ignorance: it is, as you rightly allude to, about differences of opinions. Th RUK forum is the best British horse racing site on the internet - bar none. Richard Hoiles is also a member. Look forward to seeing you there and interacting with some very shrewd racing people.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt Shergar still won the King George by a comfortable 4 lenghs eased down but yes he had to work abit harder than he was used too but he still won with plenty in hand
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt shergar barely came off the bridle either SB won by 2 Shergar by 10 eased down
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
nellie...it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
as the twat with the posh voice says el gran senor had a history of pulling up when in front....that to my estimations is calling the horse a dodge
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
But easily good enough to beat a class field in the Irish Derby at the same distance with a different jockey ? He certainly was no 'dodge' as you put it ?
Splitscreen83 1 year ago
hindsight is a wonderful thing, the horse had never ran 1m4 so how was eddery supposed to know he wouldnt quite stay the trip to win, even then if the horse wasnt such a dodge and quickened up earlier the race could have been put to bed before secreto came to challenge, i dont think you can blame eddery, more the horse didnt quicken when he asked
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
i dont think you can blame pat eddery at all, el gran senor was a dodge eddery took him to the front and the horse didnt want to go on, then when secreto challenged him he wasnt good enough,
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171
Nonsense None of Northern Dancers prodigy truly stayed a mile and a half yet Lester got them all home in the Derby face it Eddery made an absolute mess of that race.
nellie1912 1 year ago
@nellie1912 First things first pal eddery was every bit as capable as piggott...And was a far more likeable guy....Piggott was an arrogant nasty peice of work who never commanded any respect amongs his fellow jockeys....piggott would have had the same problem as eddery did of getting this dodge to go on and win the race....
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@nellie1912 it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@nellie1912 it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@nellie1912 it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
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@nellie1912 it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
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@nellie1912 it is very easy to critisise a jockey from your arm chair...eddery gave the horse every chance he was just not good enough piggott would have made no difference....Fallon may have made a difference he has won on 3 of the worst derby winners ever....Only he would have won on Oath, Northlight and Kris kin.....No other jockey in history would have got those donkeys home
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@nellie1912 First things first i am not ur pal eddery every bit as good as piggott do me a favour. Dushyantor 1996 got into all sorts of trouble second 1997 silver patriarch left it to late second 2001 golan left it to late second. 1984 el gran senor in vincent own words the best i ever trained second versus piggott nine times derby winner
nellie1912 1 year ago
@nellie1912 you realy dont have a clue do you, you are saying EGS was the best horse vincent ever trained, you just cant make it up, i take it youve never heard of sir ivor or nijinsky, even golden fleece(the sun of nijinsky) who eddery also rode has always maintained that golden fleece was the best horse he ever sat on, he also rode el gran senor, work it out PAL
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171
You obviously didn;t read what I said which Was that Vincent O Brien satated that El Gran senor was the best horse he had ever trained so its obviously Vincent who doesn;t have a clue. Interesting that Pat in his autobiobiography states that no jockey who ever threw his leg across a horse would have won those derbies on Roberto and The Minstrel
nellie1912 1 year ago
@nellie1912 show me proof of that i think you will find vincent mantained that he could not bring himself to choose who the best horse he ever trained was, all he said was it would have been between sir ivor or nijinsky, he couldnt split them, he never mentioned EGS, as for eddery he is a humble generaly nice guy, hes not going to start boasting hoe great he was because he is not that sort of charecter
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Simple Man U read his own autobiography written with his wife. I'm not disagreeing with you regarding pats capabilities in the saddle just he made a mess of this race as for your comment about sir Ivors arc this was actually his fourth defeat in a row and he was beaten by a better horse over one and a half vaguely Noble which makes Piggott getting him home in the washington over a mile and a half in heavy going two weeks later all the more brilliant. .
nellie1912 1 year ago
@nellie1912 if you want ti start bringing up edderys bad rides, what about lesters ride on nijinsky in the arc of 1970 which is regarded as one of the most infamous rides in history, only a disaster of a ride coulkd have got nijinsky beat and thats what it was, what about his rude on sir ivor innthe arc of 1968 also another terrible ride from piggot also getting a superstar beat that should have won easy
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Do you know anything about Race-riding? El Gran Senor was cantering , Pat had a double handful ,evberything else was off the bridle flat out and going nowhere! , Pat dissapointed the horse by not letting him down ,giving Secreto
a chance of a second wind,El Gran Senor then empied out , but still ran to the line dispite this.He was easily the best Colt in that race and one of the top 5 Colts in the last 30 years.
thehorseshead 1 year ago
@thehorseshead You are another who doesnt have a clue.....el gran senor was a miler and he was beaten because he wasnt good enough at 1m4...Nothing to do with eddery he gave the horse every chance.....the horse didnt quicken when he asked him......
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@thehorseshead as for el gran senor being top 5 in the last 30 years.....Another clueless comment...Have you ever heard of Shergar,Golden fleece,Dancing Brave,Dubai Millenium,Sea the stars,new aproach,montjeu,rock of gibralter,Hawkwing,Henrythenavigator or george washington just to name a few who would have all had the measure of this dodge
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 You dont know fuck all about Horse-Racing or Race riding
that much is crystal clear.Stick to watching the Munichs on sky you clueless cunt.
My life hahaha,Cause ive heard of every single one of them Horses you mentiones and Only Dancing Brave and Shergar should have been mentioned
in the same sentence as the great El Gran Senor ,,,,Fuck me you really are a bellend hahaha
thehorseshead 1 year ago
@thehorseshead why do you need to use such language you are clearly just some clueless kid, pat eddery also road golden fleece(the sun of nijinsky) ands he has maintained golden fleece was the best horse he ever rode better than el gran senor and easily won the derby on the bridle unlike that dodge el gran senor, that is proof that one of those horses were better, if you truly belive el gran senor was better than STS, Dubai millenium, montjeu then you clearly lack racing knowledge
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@thehorseshead how do you mean watching munich, if you are having a pop about the munich air crash then you are clearly sick in the head, you obviously need help, football rivalry is fine but some things are going too far, you should be in broadmoor pal
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@thehorseshead as for shergar it is more like el gran senor should not under any circumstances be mentioned in th same breath as shergar, shergar was a machine, i am old enough to have seen the sea birds, nijinskys of this world, but make no mistake shergar for me was the best ,EGS was no were near that standard, over 1m4 shergar was unstoppable, if elgran senor and secreto were in shergars derby they too would have been atleast 10 lenghs back probably more
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 Sea Bird, Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Sea The Stars, Golden Fleece, and Workforce would all have beaten Shergar no problem.
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt Sea Bird perhaps would have had a chance Nijinsky and Mill Reef would have been close, STS and Golden Fleece would have been miles behind and to say workforce who won one of the worst derbys ever when only he got past the pace maker just highlights your ignorance, Shergar was and always will be the best horse SMS has ever trained and Workforce will never be in the same class
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 @MANUTD4LIFE1 I was around then and backed Shergar in all his 3 yr old races, including the St Leger, where he didn't stay; beaten by Dick Hern's Cut Above. Shergar was a very good horse but do not accuse me of ignorance. My passion is horse racing and I can hold my own with most. Shergar was an out and out galloper - and he did not have the extra gears of the horses I named. Sea Bird and Nijinsky would have cantered past Shergar with ease. Workforce is better than Shergar !
ThefightingCelt 1 year ago
@ThefightingCelt Sea Bird and Nijinsky would not have cantered past Shergar with ease you clearly lack racing knowledge to make such a ridiculous claim Shergar definately had gears, As for Workforce this is the bit that completely highlights your ignorance there is no way he would get anywere near Shergar if you suggested this to SMS you would have to pick him off the floor in laughter
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@thehorseshead just 1 final point i very much doubt you know anything about racing if you can dare to suggest that the horses i have mentioned dont deserve to be mentioned in the same breath accept for shergar and dancing brave, Rock of gibralter was certainly el gran senors equal if not better over a mile, i also forgot to metion nashwan who was a guines derby and eclipse winner who also would have destroyed el gran senor, as for STS comon pal 6 G1 victorys
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
@MANUTD4LIFE171 GOULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE MATE. AS GOOD AS EL GRAN SENOR WAS HE WAS NO SHERGAR AND CERTAINLY NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS THE GREAT DANCING BRAVE.
bigttim1 1 year ago
@bigttim1 Yes Dancing Brave was a classy horse and perhaps the best horse to lose in a derby, he should have won, i would only rate Shergar and Golden Fleece as better horses from the 80s, Gold Fleece could have gone on to great things after the derby but he ended up with cancer which eventualy killed him so he never raced again, such ashame he was never able to race again as he was truely special
MANUTD4LIFE171 1 year ago
Great horse and probably the blame goes to Pat Eddery.
Splitscreen83 1 year ago