Debate with Richard Dawkins - Homage to Darwin

[Haarez1]

Dawkins in his natural habitat... how quaint

[freiheitsalv]

:o I want to see the whole debate! :D

[karlschomburg]

These guys all look like a bunch of hippies from the 60's to me. Why on earth would anyone care what they have to say?

[RussiansArePerfect]

dawk should run 4 president.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect Yeah he could outlaw religion like Stalin did.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester not outlaw.. but present fair and equal positions from all points of views so the people could have the chance to make the decision between religion and no religion... Not sure if that makes sense but I think you get the point.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect But you have to remember, Dawkins thinks that religious people are either wicked, evil or ignorant, & that parents should not indoctrinate their own children to there own personel world view, but let them decide when they get older, however at the same time, he donates money to atheist camps for children. Are you saying that people right now dont have a choice to make up their minds? I can only speak for the US which grants us these freedoms. We do not live in a theocracy.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester not saying that people do not have a choice, but i believe people now have more freedom to question their beliefs, and make the decision of religion. And I think he is right when he says parents should not put their ideas of the world unto their children, as these choices can only be understood later on in the child's life. I child doesn't question or look at how it works, the child will simply imitate the actions of their parents.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect "And I think he is right when he says parents should not put their ideas of the world unto their children"

Then why does Dawkins financially support indoctrinating kids as young as 8 into his own atheist world view by funding camp Quest which is an atheist camp for children? Shouldn't they also make that decision when their older? I dont mean to get personel, & you dont have to answer, but were you raised an atheist?

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester I think 8 is too young to make that decision. And maybe because atheistic views have evidence behind it, not superstition, lucky rabbit feet or faith. Lets children see the world views from a realistic and logical perspective. And I was raised a Christian, as well as all of my relatives. I am currently the only one that is an Atheist from the family tree.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect "And maybe because atheistic views have evidence behind it, not superstition"

Well there is also evidence for Jesus. Biblical archeology is a confirmed science. According to Wikipedia, most historians agree on Jesus birth, life, ministry & healing as a fact. There are even some non religious scholars who also believe his missing body to be unexplainable naturally. How can you have evidence for not believing in God?

One more question, do you feel unfulfilled or unhappy?

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester By archeological records Jesus did not exist. There was I believe 2 historians that made claims of Jesus, but the claims/evidence was proven to be contaminated by the church = was proven for hundreds of years. Unexplained body = look at Roman Soldiers records = explained. + In the bible there are a few places where the disciples question the authenticity of the 2nd Jesus.

"How can you have evidence for not believing in God?" I think believing in God is the lack of evidence.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect "Most critical historians agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire" Wikipedia

As for indoctrination, this is just an argument of "my way of life is better than yours" This the double standard that Dawkins commits.

Dont u consider yourself a well adjusted person?

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect

Please provide source or citation for your statements concerning historical facts..

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester Roman soldiers = ancient Jewish historian Josephus’ book, The War of The Jews or the ancient Greek author Homer's account of the "Trojan Horse" in The Iliad. + jcnot4me.c°m has good info on roman soldiers. as well as debates on this subject., Some1 by the name of Jesus probably existed but there is not any sufficient evidence for his existence. Can you name any?

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect You have answered your own question. Josephus was a Roman historian who is cited as giving evidence for the person of Christ. Josephuse's account does not help your case, it helps mine. The Trojan Horse and ancient Greeks had nothing to do with subject of Christ. I didn't ask for blog debates. I asked for verifiable source material backing up your statement. I cited an encyclopedia with sourced material. You can check it out yourself.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester That was only the title of the book, = Roman soldiers testimonies = there was no ressurection, they witnessed people running away with the body. This was also in Josephus's book.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect "Roman soldiers testimonies = there was no resurrection, they witnessed people running away with the body"

This is based on rumor after the fact. If your speaking of the resurrection. The Romans appointed soldiers to guard the tomb so that this would not happen. How do people run away with a body without getting past armed soldiers? First you say he didn't exist, and now you tell me they stole the body of someone who you say didn't exist. Your free to choose what to believe.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester Look at my previous posts, i said by the archeological records he did not as there is no valid records to this date that can prove otherwise.. Some1 by the name of Jesus probably existed, but to say he can turn water into wine and perform miracles is nothing short of a story. Just like there is no evidence of miracle performing powers, world flood, 6k year old earth, 700 year old humans, etc. In order to believe in the bible, i think one must have ignorance for science.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect

"By archeological records Jesus did not exist. There was I believe 2 historians that made claims of Jesus, but the claims/evidence was etc"

Those were your initial words..

I'm not sure if your aware of this, but it was theologians who were the first to open universities and teach what we call the modern sciences today. The Bible is a historical document and provides eyewitness accounts. If you witnessed a miracle how would you convince people 2000 years in the future?

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester what you have quoted = just me saying archeology does not have enough valid evidence to proof his existence.

"If you witnessed a miracle how would you convince people 2000 years in the future?" the lack of evidence does not make something true. If the only evidence supporting this claim is the bible which was highly modified/changed/unoriginal, and is not considered to be valid evidence: = the only piece of evidence your using is the bible = then you are lacking evidence.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect "the lack of evidence does not make something true. If the only evidence supporting this claim is the bible which was highly modified/changed/unoriginal"

That is the old notion and is very outdated. The dead sea scrolls proved that scripture was the same two thousand years ago. You ignore my question. If you witnessed a miracle how would you prove it to people 2000 years in the future? The Bible is considered a historical document. Biblical archeology is a confirmed science.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester How can you say Biblical Archeology is confirmed science? If we took the Bible as a science book, then we would have to fire every scientist in the world. Tell people the world is flat, that stars are on a finament, that noah collected every animal 2x from the hole earth, that people can survive days in a fishes stomach, that towers can be built to reach the -heavens- that you can see the whole world from a tall tree, the list goes on....

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester and to answer your question I would take a video, but in those times. If there was a man of real miracles I would need to see valid documents from multiple sources, many different valid documents, from historians all around where he has been, all of these documents had to be dated in the time frame of when he -performed- those miracles. the documents have to come from non jewish/christian sources. A man of such caliber would have been known world wide... maybe Jesus's Diary lol

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect

Josephus, Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata Suetonius,Pliny the Younger,Thallus and Phlegon,Mara Bar-Serapion

were not a Christians in fact some of them disliked Christians and neither were the Romans and these are all independent sources.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect I didn't say the Bible is a confirmed science. I said Biblical archeology is a confirmed science. I'm speaking of it as a historical document. Science cannot confirm metaphysical faith empirically.

There is nothing in the Bible that says the earth is flat. There are metaphors in the old testament and there are actual events. Some have been confirmed and some have not. The flood story is a part of the history of many different cultures all over the ancient world.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester The documents are still not valid evidence that he existed, they were made out of jesuss time frame, by invalid sources, copies of copies, no valid evidence. Nothing says earth is flat? ... you're kidding right? thats how the early church viewed the bible, they punished people who refused to think the earth was flat. lol. Is 40:22 i think says the earth is a circle: 2d O. and revelations says if the wind is too strong it can blow the stars off and they will plummit to earth lmao

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect

No I'm not kidding. Tell me where in the bible does it say the world is flat, and please tell me who was punished for believing in a flat earth. Please be specific no generalizations.

It is he [God] that sitteth upon the circle [sphere] of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers…"

(Isaiah 40:22).

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester Lmao, look up the definition of the world circle: than go to Hebrew text the word is Chug: Circular, Circle, circuit, vault, compass = thats the definition. The proper Hebrew word for Sphere/Ball is Dug... and that was not used in the bible. And by context, Chug was used over 5 times in the bible every time describing flat circular objects like a musical instrument. Look this up, look up both Hebrew and English definition of the word circle and Sphere.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect The word is chuwg and it is mentioned 3 times in Job 22:14 Proverbs 8:27 and Isa 40:20

Circle, circuit, compasses are not musical instruments. As for the vernacular, as a Spanish speaker I see this all the time with English translations. The word "ball" is mentioned one time in the Bible and in same book of Isa 22:18 as something that gets tossed around. Does that sound like the earth to you?

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester Circle, circuit, compass is the definition of the word Chuwg. and none of these sounds like the earth to me. No idea why you mentioned Isa 22:18 it only helps my case, because in Hebrew text the word being used is not Chuwg but Dur = ball sphere, look it up yourself. And in Isa 22:18 there was no mention of the word earth, as it was only a threat that god can wrap you into a ball and throw you out into the distant lands.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester Now knowing the definition of the 2 words used, if you look at it logically the pieces do not fit together. They knew what dug meant = sphere/ball and knew what chuwg meant = circular/circle. And yet the earth throughout the bible has never been described as a dug/ball/sphere but described as chuwg/circle/circular. +look up what Isa 22:18 means no mention of earth logically/metaphorically/ or any other way. look it up kjv, nkvj, nrv, any bible version.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect Yes the earth is circular. You are adding in more to what is being said by adding the concept of flatness. I asked you were it said the earth is flat and the best you could provide was circular. Sorry but this is a stretch. You were also wrong about how many times the word chuwg is mentioned in the bible and the musical instrument thing has yet to be proven. This is why you cannot provide an example of anyone being punished for not believing the world was flat.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth = Isa 40:22 : Circle. Give me definition of a circle? now lets go to Isa 40:22 in Hebrew the word used is Chuwg = now give me definition of chuwg. The mention of the earth being flat goes as far as the book of enoch. And tell me how the word circle is the same thing as a sphere? The early church even thought that the sun was rotating around the earth, and we were the center of the universe.... best science book ever.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect cont...... humans. We now know this is wrong. Modern science told us that most of our DNA was junk. Again they were wrong. Should we throw away modern science? Non Heliocentrism was based on the limited mathematics if the day. If anything, non Heliocentrism provided no privileged position for us as many non historians have wrongly perpetuated over the years. I'm still waiting for your citation on people who were punished for believing in a flat earth. What happened?

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect cont.... that it was his meddling in church doctrine which got him in trouble after he broke his promise not to. As for circle, The Hebrews only had a few thousand words in there language compare to the million plus word in the English language. Its just silly to compare todays vernacular to those times when words were used interchangeably. Just a few decades ago modern scientist believed the universe was eternal and that chimps were 99% genetically similar to

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect cont.... He was never convicted of heresy and retained all his freedoms after his house arrest which again was instigated by fellow non religious scholars. Even after his trial he remained an honored guest of Popes and Cardinals and was well respected. Galileo was placed under arrest not for his scientific views. This is a myth and historians agree

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect cont.... The biggest and most vocal enemies of Galileo were secular non theologians. who were envious of him and his fame. Science was in its infancy. Everyone thought the earth was the center. This goes back to Aristotle. Galileos ideas were welcomed by the church.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect Check out "Columbus and the Flat Earth Myth"

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester I know Columbus believed in a spherical earth, but in the video he names the philosophers and people who gave the idea =. Clement, Origen, Ambrose, Augustine, Isodore, Albertus Magnus and Aquinas all accepted the Earth as a sphere, but the Catholic Church ignored the info = because Bible says the earth is flat, has 4 corners, ends of the earth, sun sinking into the sea and so on. = The church didnt teach round earth but flat earth.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect "Bible says the earth is flat, has 4 corners"

North East West and South.

Just a few seconds ago you said it meant round circle.

The word sphere was not even around in those days. Again with a limited amount of words they were used interchangeably. I'm sorry but you cant even cite a source on how people were punished for believing in a flat earth.

"because Bible says the earth is flat"

Show me where it says the earth is flat. Please no personel interpretations.

[benthemiester]

@benthemiester Why dont you quote the entire passage where it speaks of the winds.

When we talk about the northern, southern, eastward & westward winds in ocean almanacs does that also mean to you that the earth is flat?

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect

Luke 17:34-36

34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.

Tell me what do you think this passage above means?

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester I think it means it means you are trying to change the topic. = Sounds like Judgement day. So what?

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect

No, its the same subject. I suggest you read the passage again. I know your smart, you can figure it out. If you still dont get it I will tell you what it has to do with the subject.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester It means the believers would be taken and the non-believers would be left in the field. I just checked with multiple bible sources online saying the same thing, basically a rapture/judgement day.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect Yes thats right, but pertaining to the subject at hand it also means that two will be in bed, and two will be in the field.

If two are in bed, then it is night time and they are sleeping. If two are in the field grinding grain, then it is in day time and they are working. If this happens at the same time then how can the world be flat? Only a round earth and not a flat earth makes any sense. Again you can find no where in the bible it describes the earth as being flat.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester you are saying they are working in the daytime, thats not what the scripture says, that it what you are saying.

"34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."

The only word pertaining to time is Night, there is no mention of day/morning, etc. = you are putting more definition into something that is not there.

[benthemiester]

@RussiansArePerfect Have you ever heard the term "a one verse Charley"? That means someone who doesn't look at context. Jesus said he would "come as a thief in the night". He spoke in parables, and symbolism is an important part of the parables he spoke of. The term "night" is consistent with this passage.

You have been a good sport. We just happen to disagree. I'm not going to try to beat you over the head on this. You have your own free choice.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester Its been nice sharing ideas/points of views with you.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester " What The Bible Got Wrong: A Flat Earth Part 1" heres a video that describes the flat earth theory using logic. uploaded by used brettpalmer.

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester So what can you tell me about the previous post? did you look up the Hebrew definition/English definition?

[RussiansArePerfect]

@benthemiester Even if you can prove that the world is a sphere by biblical evidence(which is impossible) you would still be wrong wouldn't you? Science tells us the earth is an oval/egg shaped. But back to the flat earth and stuff and Isa 40:22, where does it say the world is a sphere?

[spareaxe]

Was that Bigfoot taking a leak behind the bushes near the end of this vid?

[Zythe]

3:02, looking ANGRY, me with my highlights. I appear to be wearing a pink tee shirt. Good view of it at 3:24, where I look restless and bored!

[WendyMo1]

@Zythe So??? Were you restless and bored??? I wouldn't have minded being there!!

[Zythe]

@WendyMo1 it was all about spirochetes.

[Zythe]

Yay there I am with the grey hoody and the blonde highlighs, 2:47

[voicesfromoxford]

The full videos are now on the Voicesfromoxford website

[STEPHENWRAYSFORD33]

Thank you for uploading. It's nice to see Richard Dawkins appearing before an educated audience and talking about really interesting controversies inside the theory of evolution with other scientists rather than videos on youtube of Dawkins trying to explain natural selection to creationists which must be exasperating for even the most patient mind.

[WendyMo1]

@STEPHENWRAYSFORD33 hear,hear!

[voicesfromoxford]

Many thanks for this comment. Yes, you will be able to hear the whole debate without music. We have made 3 videos of the full debate which will be uploaded soon on the Voices from Oxford website. They are far too long to appear on youtube. The youtube video is simply an entertaining trailer

for these complete videos.

[Lastknownuser]

Can you make another video, just no music.

[doubtnegqgood]

And the point of this is ,,,

[voicesfromoxford]

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