The Quran is not arranged according to importance, continuity, sacredness, biography, chronology, significance or sequence of any sort, but simply by length: the longest chapter, followed by the next longest. The verses are disorderly arranged and jumbled up in unrelated subjects/topics. The Quran has no prophecy, no chronology, no geography, no biography of anybody (except bits & pieces of Mo), cont'd
no ministry, no history, no proverbs, no parables, no miracles, no psalms, no sequence of any sort. It's generally a manual of dos and don'ts, like an instruction manual of a vacuum cleaner, with punishments, reprisals and rewards specified in it. The Quran is, undoubtedly, not a book created by an intelligent being, and is unfit for the intelligent and rational thinking person. This book is fraught with stupidity, lacks logic and reason, which makes it a complete lie.
With all the 'science' in the Quran it's a wonder that Muslims haven't claimed EVERY Nobel prize for ALL the sciences since Nobel had his first blast. The reality is that Muslims have done very poorly.
When Islam kicked in, that is when the arab world went down hill and until today has never recovered and never will as long as religion and especially this religion rules.
I don't know much abt the person Imam Gazali but I heard after the Siege of Baghdad, which occurred in 1258 by Mangol army most of the prominent researchers n philosophers where killed and approx most books n research work was burnt and due to ashes river water was black for several weeks. (so, that might be one of reason but I still don't understand why Muslims didn't again put their hearts and mind in something they were ordered to do ~__~ )
so basically that guy who said mathematics is the work of the devil stopped the whole arabic world from becoming a leader in knowledge and a future superpower. what an asshole
so basically that guy who said mathematics is the work of the devil stopped the whole arabic world from becoming a leader in knowledge and a future superpower. what an asshole
@illywacker1 Actually it was Islam which allowed great advancements in science and has kept the Arab world rich and made it what it is today. However, the arabs themselves and interventions of the western countries in the middle east has screwed them up. Islam encouraged education this is why the rise took place in the 9th century
@uarsalan If ISLAM were so transcendent what happened?! It's TRUE that Arabia was the center of knowledge during the part of the middle ages. But AGAIN -- what happened? Could it have been that Muslims began taking themselves so very seriously that the only widely sanctioned form of education was based on the time-consuming and spirit-defeating memorization of the Quran? A book with so many contradictions and non-sequitors that intelligent people were left bereft? What a waste!
@MsBaystater It still is but faith is not there. When Islam was at its peak, the believers were actually believers and adhered to every word of it not what you see today. It is that Muslims became too arrogant and big headed and started to derail. The book is a guide. It says balance religion and the world. But it seems they seem to be slipping from both.
The Arabs would be nothing today had it not been for Islam. Why do you think Muhammed was hailed one of the most influential man in history? Islam managed to drive the backward Arabs into a global force that eventually resulted in this golden age in the 9th-12th century of scientific free thought and tolerance. The fact that this happened shows that the Quran isn't incompatible with free thought and science. Today the case is much different but the people are at fault, not the religion itself.
@ProphetsofGod Oh, horse hockeys! Muhammad planted the seeds of Islam's own destruction. Alas, that destruction has been a long, slow process. Nobody wants to see actual Muslims suffer more than they already do. Indeed, Muslims need to abandon the suffering they have been forced to endure. Message to the most devout: you will be welcomed to and wecomed in the company of man. You don't need to be Christian or Ahteist -- just open your eyes and love what you see.
In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca. Those passages make Islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience.
Such is a deception. The activists fail to tell gullible people that such verses, though still in the Quran, were nullified, abrogated, rendered void by later passages that incite killing, decapitations, maiming, terrorism and religious intolerance. The latter verses were penned while Mohammed’s headquarters was based in Medina.
@illywacker1 That's ridiculous, you clearly don't know much about the Quran. I've read the Quran entirely and still find it easy to follow it down to the word. Just because you hear stories of people using Quranic verses to justify their crazy antics doesn't mean what they say is true. Unfortunately, today most in the Muslim world are uneducated, suppressed and frustrated. Don't judge the religion by the actions of its people.
In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca. Those passages make Islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience.
Tyson goes on the assumption that Islam itself, the Quran, says that science and mathematics is of the devil. Islam is not restrictive of scientific thought and progress and had it been so then those glorious 300 years surely wouldn't have occurred. Just because some have tried to make the argument that science and Islam are incompatible doesn't mean that its supported in the Quran. How is the religion itself restrictive?
@ProphetsofGod no he doesnt, he states clearly that it is derived from one man, imam hamid al-ghazali. i think that you have been restricted sir or madam. religion itself is restrictive in what you will allow yourself to think, feel, and be aware of, your comment being a perfect example.
@ultragoliath84 Yes he does but the immediate assumption he makes is that this is inevitable because this is supported fully by the Quran. If people in the 9th-12th century managed to develop one of the most scientific and enriching center in the world at a time of such backwardness, then why do people still condemn the Quran as being anti free thought? Perhaps it is so today in the Muslim world because there are dictators in charge who want nothing but to suppress free thought.
800 -1100 AD , when Islam was a progressive ,scientific and tolerant religion until one deluded idiot muslim declared mathematics the work of the devil and set back civilisation in the middle east by a 1000 years .(And theists wonder what we atheists have against religion)
It's obvious all religions must die, also people that propaganda it should just go somewhere out of society and live in the harsh world without technology that science has given them It's always SOOO easy to say "god is merciful" when you live in a worm house, have a job, have a food on your plate and you turn on your PC or TV...how about no food, outside, rainy and thundering day / night with a fucking wolf growling at you
Actually many of them can be traced back to Persia, India, Greece and China.
It is also necessary to mention that many of these scientists like al-razi were atheist, zoroastrian, christian, because Islamic propaganda spreads this silly idea of " Golden Islamic age" and that religion contributed in any way to science, which is absurd ofc
However, al-Gahzali's apparent views against science/mathematics was in relation to the social tendencies of that time. That is, there was a growing movement within Islamic intellectual hubs to conflate science with religion as a means of explaining methaphysics and 'Revelation' itself.
Thus, al-Gazali's (and numerous others) condemnation was about the social implications of science and its great potential to disrupt and cross pollinate with pure theological discourse.
I got mad respect for Dr Tyson as a scholar. But his expounding on historical events is certainly not his area of expertise. His categorising of Imam al-Ghazali's views of sceince as being a catalyst for the stunting of Islamic intellectual and scientific growth is blatantly inaccurate. One only needs a passing acquaintance with the works of al-Ghazali to know that he was a scholar that not only praised scientific discipline but also encouraged its study as a communal obligation.
Muslims were no doubt Brilliant Scholars, Explorers and Discoveries (Regardless of the fact that they borrowed knowledge of Science from others). However their own Extremist Religion stopped them from advancing further with Science. Religion has always interfered when Science seeks to prove it wrong, This was the case in Islam.
When Science began to pose questions and change the definition of Ideas in the Quran, Islamic Philosophers interfered and restricted Science & Math as the Devil.
@forgottenmemories63 "Religion has always interfered when Science seeks to prove it wrong [..] When Science began to pose questions and change the definition of Ideas in the Quran, Islamic Philosophers interfered and restricted Science & Math as the Devil"
Yes. Even though I agree with other commenters here that NDT oversimplifies by putting ALL the blame on al-Ghazali, the clash between fairy tales and science is very real. Hopefully, science/reason will prevail.
I think people should read history itself instead of listening to Tyson. He fails mentioning the underlying history and tries to push his own agenda on the subject. This thing has deep roots going way back. But yeah, Islam stopped the wheel.
This reminds me of that documentary guns germs and steel.
A part of it that i found interesting was how china had an emperor that outlawed building ocean ships or something. And how they could have potentially been more prominent in the world in place of what actually happened with spain/france/england.
In the same way that assuming this is true, Islamic nations could have been world leaders in science and philosophy if their religion wasn't so restrictive.
@thecreepyguy You could also argue the same about Europe. Those Dark Ages weren't because of the weather. Religion of all kinds harbors and creates much more destruction than it does enlightenment.
@thecreepyguy brother, with all due respect You dont have a clue as to what you are saying...if there is a reason why Islam/Muslims had such a prosperous past then it was solely due to the FAITH of Muslims in their hearts which today unfortunately isnt all that good...on the contrary America promised the world all that Freedom and see what it actually gave - A MORALLY DECAYED AND GREEDY SOCIETY plus wars all over the world with entire nations annihilated...i hope u get the point...
@ZainQasmi The reason Islam stopped it's progress in the Dark Ages was because Muslims became more conservative over their religion. Ancient Islamic law by people such as Al-Ghazali commanded that depiction of art, creation of theories that held the importance of man (Islamic Scholars were the first to suggested something similar to Theory of Evolution) were in direct contradiction to Allah, Also topics of Science were first put forward by Greeks, Who were considered as "Khafirs" by Al-Ghazali.
@ZainQasmi Critical thinkers like Persian "Sohrevardi" were put to death because he proposed theories that conflicted with Islamic beliefs. He was the first one to suggest a theory that excluded Allah from the equation and Islamic Clerics did not like this.
Many such as him were hunted down and put to death during 12th Century as Islamic age of learning transformed into Islamic Extremist Belief System that lasts to this day. So, I believe Belief in Islam only made it worse for free thinkers.
@forgottenmemories63 Dear if Muslims had any DARK AGE in history then its TODAY, for then it was dark age of the Christendom. I would advise you to study history of Spain during the middle age,it included sewage system,street lightning,public baths plus a 2000 bed hospital two nurses for each ...it was the most prosperous european nation. For 700 years Spain was under Muslim rule thu they were pushed out in under 20 days Why?B/C of our weakened faith, we gave more priority to worldly pleasures!
@forgottenmemories63 I'm sorry to say but belief in ALLAH & CREATION is a fundamental part of Islam,ur point is flawed NO ISLAMIC SCHOLAR COULD HAVE SAID THAT.I suggest you study and evaluate both the theories yourself. Thats true the Greeks should be credited with a lot of development in science but ALOT (thousands) of Muslim research and books were literally burnt after invasion. I'm talking facts here, Most Muslim scientists and scholars during that era were actually DEVOUT Muslims.
@forgottenmemories63 Extremist? Brother you are a victim of the same propaganda by media/governments against Islam.Ever wondered why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world esp Europe?I'm pretty sure no one is being forced to convert. Infact all those bombings & terrorism -thats NOT ISLAM. Islam means "PEACE". So would you blame a religion of 1.8 billion followers just b/c a small band of people carry out such acts claiming to be Muslims?Btw "Kafir" means non-muslim,its not derogatory
@ZainQasmi Well, If we compare Christianity and Islam side by side during the dark ages, We see that Islamic scholars were the ones that made the most important discoveries for some time.
My point is what led to decline of Islamic Golden Age after the 12th Century ? It was the rise in - "Islam is Perfect and Quran cannot be questioned" mentality that lasts till this day. People became more religious and sparks of Curiosity and Interest disappeared in Islamic world as everything became "Haram".
I never understand why religous people want do destroy science..! Or attack scientists.. Is like they are afraid they will ruin their herp de derp fun! But really, they just want to find out about stuff! Oh and another thing! As soon as you say you are a atheist they attack science in your face like you freaking made that shit. So annoying. I have nothing to do with science. I support it. But the truth is I just find the God idea extremly hard to fall for. There is no way kind of. Thats it.
Neil deGrasse Tyson - "OUR COLLECTIVE FREE TIME NEEDS TO SHIFT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO EDUCATION. WHETHER YOU'RE A YOUNG STUDENT OR FINISHED SCHOOL LONG AGO, GET OUT TO THE LIBRARY WHENEVER YOU CAN AND WORK HARD TO LEARN EVERYTHING YOU CAN ABOUT THIS WORLD. EACH INDIVIDUAL AND SOCIETY WILL BENEFIT FROM BEING ABLE TO SOLVE MORE PROBLEMS AND MAKE BETTER DECISIONS. EDUCATION IS AN AMAZING DISCOVERY PROCESS THAT REPAYS YOU ENDLESSLY."
1- Politicians interfering in the development of education curricula or placed on supervision
2- Clergymen are interfering in matters of politics is not to hold office, but in the explained to the simple, although their involvement is less than in the past, Europe
tht's it But we can repair the situation even though it will take more time but we can
al-ghazali didn't say that math is the work of the devil. he actually explains why it's true and explains why it's stupid to try and argue against math and science.
What he did say, is that it's not fulfilling to the soul, but I think this was more his personal opinion; I doubt it had much effect.
I don't really think he was the reason for the decline of science in baghdad and cordoba.
Neil deGrasse Tyson is misinformed and is distorting history.
Just google "Neil DeGrasse Tyson and the Myth of Islamic Anti Science" and click on the article from thedailybanter(DOT)com.
It was war that drove the Islamic world away from scientific thought. The Islamic world came under attack from the west during the crusades, in addition to the path of destruction laid by mongol invaders.
War drove them to religious fundamentalism, kind of like the Tea Baggers of modern day USA.
The koran: a vain and futile attempt to clothe an otherwise naked and empty philosophy in some semblance of scientific credibility by invoking itself as its own written authority!
Algebra is not actually "Arabic" it was done by Persian Muslims just like Numerals that was done by Indian Muslims...Arabs themselves rarely did anything...If You search all These so called Arabic scientists 90% of them will end up Persian by lineage....
@lordsohrab the word is Arabic. Much like all science terms these days are English even though a lot of science is done by people who don't speak English as their first language.
Arabs are not really a race, it's more of a culture.
Arabic numerals or Hindu numerals[1][2] or Hindu-Arabic numerals[2][3] are the ten digits (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). They are descended from the Hindu-Arabic numeral system developed by Indian mathematicians, in which a sequence of numerals such as "975" is read as a whole number.
@tarqoo3 While I agree that wars may have played an important part in the decline of Islamic civilization, I don't think you can really just blame war. The west has had plenty of wars also, huge ones just in this last century, but they didn't destroy science. I think de Grasse is using Ghazali as just one example of a trend in Islam around that time--free inquiry and exchange of ideas, math, knowing through observation--seem to have fallen out of favor, (continued)
@tarqoo3 (cont)--and this same anti-intellectualism seems to have continued to this day. My evidence? Just one example: look at the reaction to The Satanic Verses. When authors, artists, intellectuals know that saying or showing certain things will get them killed, it tends to dampen free inquiry pretty quickly and thoroughly. So the events you describe happened centuries ago. If free inquiry were valued, they would have bounced back long before now. (cont)
@tarqoo3 (cont) But don't think I'm just picking on Islam. The west went through it's own period of intellectual torpidity in the dark ages, at a time when the Islamic world was flourishing intellectually, and Christianity has within it, the seeds that could take us right back.
@tarqoo3 while I totally agree with you on the fact that it was wars that put a halt to the science progress in the Abbasid Empire, the question is what happened after these wars ended: the Mamelouks who governed (as well as the Fatimids and all who followed) were not as open minded towards science as the Abbasids were and the influence of Al Ghazali became so potent that basically it is his teachings they teach in the religious schools of Baghdad and Cairo
@tarqoo3 ghazali is the reason, perhaps not the only one, but his teachings and his way of "thinking" he taught it a main aspect of it. the best case is ibn rushd's life for that.
I always feel like weeping whenever I'm reminded about the scientific and intellectual long-past glory days of Islam, because it contrasts very poorly with the broad picture of Islam today.
So basically Muslims used to be great at stuff then some twat said it's a work of the devil and Muslims have been acting like a bunch of cunts ever since.
@Zed1967 Yes, exactly. All religions are like that... They deny the truth, spread lies and try to control populations. Any religion is like poison. It is like a virus.
"If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants." --Isaac Newton.
All human advancement is built on those who have come before us. This oneupsmanship on who owes what knowledge to whom is missing the point. Dr. Tyson spoke on the circumstances of Islamic scholarship and what caused its collapse. The "whos" were incidental.
It is a common assumption that the Arab world invented the zero, and it was downhill ever since then. This is false, but unfortunately not an uncommon mistake. Our numeral system dates back to India during the post-Roman era, but it came to Europe via the medieval Middle East which is why these numbers are called “Arabic” numbers in many European languages. Fjordman at the Gates of Vienna has an article "A Brief History of of Zero and Indian Numerals" on this subject.
@Coupal1 and I think you get it wrong, it is completely true that Zero was invited by Islamic Scientist, even the whole number system >> it is called Arabic Number. You can search the web and find the translated book from the original Arabic one.
If he were to honestly survey the world for oppression of thought and came up with Christians in the USA while ignoring those we vehemently oppose then he is either being disingenuine or is incredibly mis-informed.
@jjhjjff if Wikipedia page is accurate this video suggests a completely misrepresentation of Al-Ghazali, but is accurate that that philosophy described became prevalent.But the history is inaccurate.
I don't think this is very accurate. Al-Ghazali didn't attack mathematics. He criticized philosophers in his book, "The incoherence of the Philosophers".
People seem to be forgetting that arabic mathematicians got their stuff from indian mathematicians, im not saying its a bad thing but each civilization should be given credit for the development and further understanding of mathematics in these modern times and btw indians came up with a lot things zero, pi and surgery The first surgery conducted was the NOSE JOB or rhinoplasty. Just search up aryabhatta, bramhagupta and susruta ull get ur answer :D The overall message: GIVE EVERYONE CREDIT :D
Regrettably, America's influence is spreading to UK faith schools >.<
Thank God if there is one that I've been taught at secular institutions all my life! This is just me personally, but I don't see why evolution etc and religion can't co-exist. Objective secular science and optional religious belief, of course, not a mixture of the two!
Can someone show me how Islam was responsible for the 300 years of scientific exploration in Baghdad? Islam wasn't responsible for it, in fact, if 100% of Islam was practiced in Baghdad during that 300 years, there wouldn't be any scientific exploration or exchange of ideas. Islam dims the light of intellect and reason.
Islam is responsible for the 300 years of scientific exploration because Islam mandates Muslims to acquire knowledge.
The very first word Muhammad recited from the quran is "Iqra" which means to "recite/read".
Read about all those scientists and you will find out each and every one of them saying Islam is the reason for their thirst for knowledge. That is why these scientific advancement are credited to Islam.
@Xzibillionaire Islam saying acquire knowledge? What kind of knowledge? Which part of Islam teaches scientists about logic? Which part about science? Which part about the scientific method? Islam wasn't the cause of the 300 years of scientific exploration in Baghdad, this would have happened with or without Islam. If Islam was the cause, then the Islamic world would have been the bastion of science, not what it is and has been for a thousand years.
@Xzibillionaire Can you show me any references to our claim that "each and eery one" of the scientists claiming that Islam is the reason for "their thirst for knowledge"?
By the looks of it, it seems that Tyson has made some errors and even some mistaken assumption in his speech. However, he still highlights a good point: Islam was once brightened the world with art and science, as well as the caretakers of tolerance, but has since decended into an utterly primitive religion to a degree just above neanderthals. Funny how the Muslim v. Christian table has so vastly turned over time.
I tried to verify Tyson's claims here about such a man really believing and influencing everyone that "math is the work of the Devil." Any basic biography I found on al-Ghazali didn't say anything about this. He might have made some strange philosophical claims, but nowhere did he influence the entire Islamic world that rational scientific thought is evil. At the least he seemed to have actually encouraged it.
i don't know is the "math is the work of the devil" is an actual quote from al-ghazali or not. however, later in his life al-ghazali rejected his earlier work and turned to sufism, a kind of hard line islamic school of thought. his embrace of sufism, coupled with his influence contributed to the decline of scientific progress in the muslim world. yes, there where other factors but he did contribute to it in a large way.
@rns13 Actually, no. If it (scholarly material) isn't alive and well on the Internet it's most likely because it's been proven wrong or it has no more use at least, just like you can still find very old books on spontaneous generation.
@Moontouchofficial There are were different schools of thought in Islamic World at that time (You probably noticed it). One of them is Avicenna, Alpharabius, Alkindus, Averroes and their followers. Those guys try to merge Ancient Greek Philosophy with Islam. Most of them are scientists etc. and the other side is Ghazali. Ghazali declare them as "infidels". And you know the famous cotton & fire thing.
by the way, it is Indian numbers ,zero was used by Babylons somewhere near 2 millennium BC. Also many of prominent astronomers, mathematicians and other notable persons were from greater ex-Persian empire (Uzbekistan,Iran, etc.) or Turks and other nations, which they were already rich in culture and science and these notable figures studied those subjects even further. One more thing: when Arabs conquered Nations such as Persian, they robbed, destroyed and burned all the buildings and Books
@samii1981 Dude, we are talking about the Muslim invasion of Persia during the Sassanid Empire, following by other invasions to east and west !! At that time even forefather of Chengiz Khan was not on the face of this miserable plant !!! I am not Racist, and you better stop being poorly-educated !!! Just give it a try, start studying history and English, It might help next time !!!
The fact is Islam-world owes its knowledge to civilizations such as Babylon, Persia, India, etc.
@TobiHoKageSama Fact? It's not a fact until you prove it. Please give me a source that states that the ancient Persians/Babylonians/Assyrians discovered Algebra, Algorithms etc.
@Vulkaye what are you fucking kidding me? really? its in all the text books and Wikipedia. the ancients of the day discovered all of this way way before the knights were retaking Constantinople. go back to Aristotle "happiness can be achieved through the cultivation of the mind." even calculus was discovered back in the day.
@TobiHoKageSama Provide books and where you got the information from please. As I have studied the islamic history and can say that what you wrote/read is false.
the funny thing is that SOME PEOPLE forget about the ancient civilizations which were already extinct (like: Babylon, Assyria, Old-Indians) or those who were conquered and destroyed by Arab Muslims (e.g: Persian empire, and the rest). All those mathematics and astronomy and stuff are dated 1000 years back before Islam. :)
@Vulkaye Dude, Go learn some English before you start commenting ! I never said that Iranians (including Persians) were/are Arabs. In fact what I said is that Arab and Islamic world owes its knowledge to pre-Islam civilizations such as Persia, Babylon, Assyria and etc. !!! Gush I dont even know why I am repeating myself again !!! Cheers !
@TobiHoKageSama The same could be said about the Europeans since all ancient technologies were the foundation. You claim that all the Arab inventions/discoveries were made by the earlier civilizations which is completely invalid. What ancient civilization discovered Algebra? Civil Engineering? Advanced chemistry/alchemy? None, all those things where discovered/invented by ARABS. Me learn English? No, you learn history. Your lugubrious attempt to deprecate the Arabs has failed. Cheers!
According to Wikipedia, Ghazali was in favor of mathematics. Math was part of his philosophy; and to quote him regarding the math and science behind eclipses: "Whosoever thinks that to engage in a disputation for refuting such a theory is a religious duty harms religion and weakens it. For these matters rest on demonstrations, geometrical and arithmetical, that leave no room for doubt."
The Quran says that sperm is generated in the Backbone[Quran 86:6]. This idea was proposed by Greek scientists, and copied by Mohammed. If we had copyright laws 1400 years ago, Mohammed would have been jailed for copyright infringement and there would be no Islam today.
anyone who gives you a belief system is your enemy - the belief system will become a barrier for your eyes. religious people cling to their faith because their feeble ego-based minds need answers even if those answers are absurd. let go and they will experience fear and uncertainty and they can't deal with that. their man-made fiction gives them consolation, opium. thank God I don't need that.
@Xzibillionaire: "Ibn Khaldun who asserted that "humans developed from "the world of the monkeys""
Interesting. I looked him up and his book Muqaddimah, which confirms your statement. Given things like this, I'm willing to accept that Tyson was most likely mistaken in the details. He was speaking outside his area of expertise. However, do you think Ibn Khaldun would agree that revelation is no substitute for investigation? That's Tyson's real point, he just seems to have picked a bad example.
@Xzibillionaire lookup "Arabic numerals" in any encyclopedia, they were actually Indian numerals, and only then passed on to Arabs. Arabic numerals are actually INDIAN NUMERALS!
@Xzibillionaire thats true but after the the raiding al ghazzaly was the main source, which from his books people would start to think that the other philosophers are heretics and this wars were lessons from god :) I can imagine how a middle eastern mind would think .
@Xzibillionaire ur actually right.. but lets not forget in times after ebn khaldoun and el Razi and even during those times, science wasnt the easiest thing to do,.. where in europe it was a way to pass time for rich people, in the middle east it was a hunger for truth.. and do u really think ebn khaldoun could have stated his point without resistance by the fondamentalist groups that were there also in those times.. just like evolution with evangelical americans these days just with more blood
@Xzibillionaire "Tyson is misinformed about the decline. It was the mongol barbarian raiding of bhagdad that brought down the progression in those time."
You make it sound as though the Mongol raids were the SOLE reason. I totally agree that they played a big role, but so did the invention of Islam. Had the Arab cultures wanted to reignite this progression, the centuries rule of the Ottoman Empire could have easily facilitated this, but it never happened. Islam clearly stood in the way.
@Xzibillionaire : Tyson talks not about the decline of islamic civilization, but the decline of the islamic brain wich start collapsing with the imam ghazali thoughts
@Xzibillionaire Ibn Khaldun was a great thinker of the late middle ages. However his evolution like ideas seem to be dependent on a book from the previously mentioned Islam golden age. The Encyclopedia of the Brethren of purity.
@Xzibillionaire Although I agree that the sack of Baghdad slowed growth, remember that under the mongolian rule, free speech and science were fully encouraged. The muslim world started to decline since the begging of the crusades. Ghazali probably played a very important role in that decline, the sack of Baghdad was just the coup de grace in my opinion.
@Xzibillionaire It seems to me that Ibn Khaldun was too intelligent for his religion. Even if he did state that, the Quran which is the ultimate authority, directly contradicts it by extending the Jewish and Christian tradition of an adam and eve being created by God.
Ibn Khaldun credited all of his scientific, philosophical work to Islam. He even said it to be the only reason for his quench for knowledge. There are new theories about multiple origins of life. The Quran does mention creatures,humans being on earth before Adam and eve.
@Xzibillionaire Again, looks like he was too intelligent for his religion. The Quran mentions no such thing, stop talking out of your ass. The Quran is dated back to the 7th century while Ibn Khaldun was a 14th century historian. Lol, Muslims. Anything significant they find about anything, they try to tie it back to their religion.
Retard, go look up Ibn Khalduns inspiration. He mentions ISLAM retard. Its not me its Ibn Khaldun who credited his own work to Islam. And guess what at that time Islam was in full swing in the society he lived in.
Darwin's contemporary, Sir William Draper, called it the Mohammedan Theory of Evolution for a fucking reason. fucking arrogant know it all bitch.
@Xzibillionaire Oh, so because Khaldun mentions ISLAM for his inspiration, ISLAM gets the credit? What a stupid fucking myrmidon. If Albert Einstein mentioned the Bible for his inspiration on the theory of relativity, would that mean the Theory of Relativity is extrapolated in the Bible? Oh no wait, you've enlightened me. A fucking British army officer states its the Mohammedan theory so IT MUST BE. Why didn't Darwin mention it? Or Lamarck for that matter?
@Xzibillionaire lol its so fucking funny. Not even the Khaldun theory, but the MOHAMMEDAN theory. You Muslims make me fucking sick. A historian notes something 700 fucking years after Islam was founded and suddenly, Islam is responsible. Especially when it directly and blatantly contradicts the theory of evolution by clearly stating that God created Adam and Eve. Now go cry "OH DERP METAPHOR DERP", "ANYTHING I LIKE IS LITERAL, ANYTHING WRONG IS A METAPHOR" ahahahaha fucking morons.
Yo dawg I heard you like evolution so i put evolution into evolution so you can keep herp derping bullshit.
I did not call it Muhammadan theory cock-sucking dumbfuck. Sir William Draper did you fuckface. Get that through your thick fucking skull. I didnt say Islam was responsible the Historian and the scientist themselves did cocksucker becuase all of those innovation happened under sharia law. Fucking retard.
@Xzibillionaire So why the fuck would you mention Sir William Draper calling it the Mohammedan theory if its of no relevance? What a brainless fuck. A British army officer has no credibility talking about these concepts just like your beloved pedo-prophet. By claiming that the historian and scientists said so, you are implying that the concept is Islamic. Though its ok to take it back once your arguments have been shot to shit. Show me where in the Quran it talks about evolution.
@Xzibillionaire All of those innovations happened under Sharia Law? Ibn Khaldun was part of the Hafsid Dynasty. A fucking MONARCHY, which is NOT ISLAMIC. When countries like Saudi and Iran fuck shit up under "SHARIA", Muslim apologists flock together and spout its not true Sharia because they are monarchies and dictatorships. Though if something good is happening under those same monarchies and dictatorships, ITS SHARIA LAW!. Stop wasting your life, go get a real education for fucks sake.
"It was the mongol barbarian raiding of bhagdad that brought down the progression in those time."
I mostly agree, however, Al Ghazali's way of thinking also contributed. See the creationism movement of Christians and Muslims today? That's kind of what I'm talking about...It's quite sad that Greek and Arab intellectual empires collapsed, it's a shame really, and it has me worried about the current days.
Ghazali pioneered “methodic doubt” and “skepticism”, both of which would play a foundational roll in all the secular movements to come. He was also opposed by one of the greatest minds in the Muslim world Ibn Rashid (Averroes). Al Ghazali actually called mathematics of his day praiseworthy adding, “…because of their absence, the community would be reduced to narrow straits.”
Tyson needs to show proof instead of talking about vibes he gets.
One fucking man Al ghazali who actually wrote numerous books for science, mathematics cannot undermine a whole education system. After all, Ghazali pioneered “methodic doubt” and “skepticism”, both of which would play a foundational roll in all the secular movements to come in Europe. Either way he was also opposed by one of the greatest minds the Muslim world would produce, Ibn Rashid (Averroes) who also pioneered in polymaths in their day ..
fool neil come in arab world and know him from near or stop misleading if you dare debate face to face that we undrestand you what we were and is.
TheAlsalaam 1 week ago
Islam is for the mentally crippled.
tarun1982 2 weeks ago
The Quran is not arranged according to importance, continuity, sacredness, biography, chronology, significance or sequence of any sort, but simply by length: the longest chapter, followed by the next longest. The verses are disorderly arranged and jumbled up in unrelated subjects/topics. The Quran has no prophecy, no chronology, no geography, no biography of anybody (except bits & pieces of Mo), cont'd
illywacker1 2 weeks ago
no ministry, no history, no proverbs, no parables, no miracles, no psalms, no sequence of any sort. It's generally a manual of dos and don'ts, like an instruction manual of a vacuum cleaner, with punishments, reprisals and rewards specified in it. The Quran is, undoubtedly, not a book created by an intelligent being, and is unfit for the intelligent and rational thinking person. This book is fraught with stupidity, lacks logic and reason, which makes it a complete lie.
illywacker1 2 weeks ago
With all the 'science' in the Quran it's a wonder that Muslims haven't claimed EVERY Nobel prize for ALL the sciences since Nobel had his first blast. The reality is that Muslims have done very poorly.
illywacker1 2 weeks ago
When Islam kicked in, that is when the arab world went down hill and until today has never recovered and never will as long as religion and especially this religion rules.
illywacker1 3 weeks ago 4
@illywacker1 BRAVO !!!!
MsBaystater 2 weeks ago
I don't know much abt the person Imam Gazali but I heard after the Siege of Baghdad, which occurred in 1258 by Mangol army most of the prominent researchers n philosophers where killed and approx most books n research work was burnt and due to ashes river water was black for several weeks. (so, that might be one of reason but I still don't understand why Muslims didn't again put their hearts and mind in something they were ordered to do ~__~ )
usmanakram232 3 weeks ago
Islam encouraging investigation & observation of nature (which is also know as science) ....
And it is said in Quran something like , Can the people who know and don't be equal? .... Can the people with normal eyes and blind be equal?
So, you have got to research, got to investigate .... there are hints of truth all around us.
usmanakram232 3 weeks ago
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so basically that guy who said mathematics is the work of the devil stopped the whole arabic world from becoming a leader in knowledge and a future superpower. what an asshole
cardude1992 3 weeks ago
so basically that guy who said mathematics is the work of the devil stopped the whole arabic world from becoming a leader in knowledge and a future superpower. what an asshole
cardude1992 3 weeks ago
Islam ruined science and has kept the Arab world back.
illywacker1 4 weeks ago
@illywacker1 Actually it was Islam which allowed great advancements in science and has kept the Arab world rich and made it what it is today. However, the arabs themselves and interventions of the western countries in the middle east has screwed them up. Islam encouraged education this is why the rise took place in the 9th century
uarsalan 3 weeks ago
@uarsalan If ISLAM were so transcendent what happened?! It's TRUE that Arabia was the center of knowledge during the part of the middle ages. But AGAIN -- what happened? Could it have been that Muslims began taking themselves so very seriously that the only widely sanctioned form of education was based on the time-consuming and spirit-defeating memorization of the Quran? A book with so many contradictions and non-sequitors that intelligent people were left bereft? What a waste!
MsBaystater 2 weeks ago
@MsBaystater It still is but faith is not there. When Islam was at its peak, the believers were actually believers and adhered to every word of it not what you see today. It is that Muslims became too arrogant and big headed and started to derail. The book is a guide. It says balance religion and the world. But it seems they seem to be slipping from both.
uarsalan 1 week ago
The Arabs would be nothing today had it not been for Islam. Why do you think Muhammed was hailed one of the most influential man in history? Islam managed to drive the backward Arabs into a global force that eventually resulted in this golden age in the 9th-12th century of scientific free thought and tolerance. The fact that this happened shows that the Quran isn't incompatible with free thought and science. Today the case is much different but the people are at fault, not the religion itself.
ProphetsofGod 4 weeks ago 2
@ProphetsofGod Oh, horse hockeys! Muhammad planted the seeds of Islam's own destruction. Alas, that destruction has been a long, slow process. Nobody wants to see actual Muslims suffer more than they already do. Indeed, Muslims need to abandon the suffering they have been forced to endure. Message to the most devout: you will be welcomed to and wecomed in the company of man. You don't need to be Christian or Ahteist -- just open your eyes and love what you see.
MsBaystater 2 weeks ago
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In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca. Those passages make Islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience.
illywacker1 1 month ago
Such is a deception. The activists fail to tell gullible people that such verses, though still in the Quran, were nullified, abrogated, rendered void by later passages that incite killing, decapitations, maiming, terrorism and religious intolerance. The latter verses were penned while Mohammed’s headquarters was based in Medina.
illywacker1 1 month ago
@illywacker1 That's ridiculous, you clearly don't know much about the Quran. I've read the Quran entirely and still find it easy to follow it down to the word. Just because you hear stories of people using Quranic verses to justify their crazy antics doesn't mean what they say is true. Unfortunately, today most in the Muslim world are uneducated, suppressed and frustrated. Don't judge the religion by the actions of its people.
ProphetsofGod 4 weeks ago 3
@illywacker1 LOL WUT?
uarsalan 3 weeks ago
In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca. Those passages make Islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience.
illywacker1 1 month ago
@illywacker1 LOL WUT? got proof?
uarsalan 3 weeks ago
could it be that islam censored science when it started to bring to light truths that were conflicting with the "revelations" of the qu'ran?
phezla 1 month ago
Tyson goes on the assumption that Islam itself, the Quran, says that science and mathematics is of the devil. Islam is not restrictive of scientific thought and progress and had it been so then those glorious 300 years surely wouldn't have occurred. Just because some have tried to make the argument that science and Islam are incompatible doesn't mean that its supported in the Quran. How is the religion itself restrictive?
ProphetsofGod 1 month ago
@ProphetsofGod no he doesnt, he states clearly that it is derived from one man, imam hamid al-ghazali. i think that you have been restricted sir or madam. religion itself is restrictive in what you will allow yourself to think, feel, and be aware of, your comment being a perfect example.
ultragoliath84 1 month ago
@ultragoliath84 Yes he does but the immediate assumption he makes is that this is inevitable because this is supported fully by the Quran. If people in the 9th-12th century managed to develop one of the most scientific and enriching center in the world at a time of such backwardness, then why do people still condemn the Quran as being anti free thought? Perhaps it is so today in the Muslim world because there are dictators in charge who want nothing but to suppress free thought.
ProphetsofGod 4 weeks ago
800 -1100 AD , when Islam was a progressive ,scientific and tolerant religion until one deluded idiot muslim declared mathematics the work of the devil and set back civilisation in the middle east by a 1000 years .(And theists wonder what we atheists have against religion)
vashna3799 1 month ago
It's obvious all religions must die, also people that propaganda it should just go somewhere out of society and live in the harsh world without technology that science has given them It's always SOOO easy to say "god is merciful" when you live in a worm house, have a job, have a food on your plate and you turn on your PC or TV...how about no food, outside, rainy and thundering day / night with a fucking wolf growling at you
lifemetall 1 month ago
the public know too little about the scientific contributions from the Arabic countries :)
Dice3000 1 month ago
Actually many of them can be traced back to Persia, India, Greece and China.
It is also necessary to mention that many of these scientists like al-razi were atheist, zoroastrian, christian, because Islamic propaganda spreads this silly idea of " Golden Islamic age" and that religion contributed in any way to science, which is absurd ofc
ChineseAtheist 1 month ago
However, al-Gahzali's apparent views against science/mathematics was in relation to the social tendencies of that time. That is, there was a growing movement within Islamic intellectual hubs to conflate science with religion as a means of explaining methaphysics and 'Revelation' itself.
Thus, al-Gazali's (and numerous others) condemnation was about the social implications of science and its great potential to disrupt and cross pollinate with pure theological discourse.
CRUSADES =Real Culprits
thesaalik786 1 month ago
I got mad respect for Dr Tyson as a scholar. But his expounding on historical events is certainly not his area of expertise. His categorising of Imam al-Ghazali's views of sceince as being a catalyst for the stunting of Islamic intellectual and scientific growth is blatantly inaccurate. One only needs a passing acquaintance with the works of al-Ghazali to know that he was a scholar that not only praised scientific discipline but also encouraged its study as a communal obligation.
thesaalik786 1 month ago
That was not all of it. It was also due to wars and invasions, many of which were incredibly brutal.
NorthCitySider 1 month ago
Muslims were no doubt Brilliant Scholars, Explorers and Discoveries (Regardless of the fact that they borrowed knowledge of Science from others). However their own Extremist Religion stopped them from advancing further with Science. Religion has always interfered when Science seeks to prove it wrong, This was the case in Islam.
When Science began to pose questions and change the definition of Ideas in the Quran, Islamic Philosophers interfered and restricted Science & Math as the Devil.
forgottenmemories63 1 month ago 2
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@forgottenmemories63 "Religion has always interfered when Science seeks to prove it wrong [..] When Science began to pose questions and change the definition of Ideas in the Quran, Islamic Philosophers interfered and restricted Science & Math as the Devil"
Yes. Even though I agree with other commenters here that NDT oversimplifies by putting ALL the blame on al-Ghazali, the clash between fairy tales and science is very real. Hopefully, science/reason will prevail.
0debug 1 month ago
I think people should read history itself instead of listening to Tyson. He fails mentioning the underlying history and tries to push his own agenda on the subject. This thing has deep roots going way back. But yeah, Islam stopped the wheel.
dannywizz 1 month ago
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GearFoxs 1 month ago
more posi comi ahsum
ErrorNotification 1 month ago
This reminds me of that documentary guns germs and steel.
A part of it that i found interesting was how china had an emperor that outlawed building ocean ships or something. And how they could have potentially been more prominent in the world in place of what actually happened with spain/france/england.
In the same way that assuming this is true, Islamic nations could have been world leaders in science and philosophy if their religion wasn't so restrictive.
thecreepyguy 2 months ago 4
@thecreepyguy You could also argue the same about Europe. Those Dark Ages weren't because of the weather. Religion of all kinds harbors and creates much more destruction than it does enlightenment.
SippinonMickeys 1 month ago 2
@thecreepyguy brother, with all due respect You dont have a clue as to what you are saying...if there is a reason why Islam/Muslims had such a prosperous past then it was solely due to the FAITH of Muslims in their hearts which today unfortunately isnt all that good...on the contrary America promised the world all that Freedom and see what it actually gave - A MORALLY DECAYED AND GREEDY SOCIETY plus wars all over the world with entire nations annihilated...i hope u get the point...
ZainQasmi 1 week ago
@ZainQasmi The reason Islam stopped it's progress in the Dark Ages was because Muslims became more conservative over their religion. Ancient Islamic law by people such as Al-Ghazali commanded that depiction of art, creation of theories that held the importance of man (Islamic Scholars were the first to suggested something similar to Theory of Evolution) were in direct contradiction to Allah, Also topics of Science were first put forward by Greeks, Who were considered as "Khafirs" by Al-Ghazali.
forgottenmemories63 3 days ago
@ZainQasmi Critical thinkers like Persian "Sohrevardi" were put to death because he proposed theories that conflicted with Islamic beliefs. He was the first one to suggest a theory that excluded Allah from the equation and Islamic Clerics did not like this.
Many such as him were hunted down and put to death during 12th Century as Islamic age of learning transformed into Islamic Extremist Belief System that lasts to this day. So, I believe Belief in Islam only made it worse for free thinkers.
forgottenmemories63 3 days ago
@forgottenmemories63 Dear if Muslims had any DARK AGE in history then its TODAY, for then it was dark age of the Christendom. I would advise you to study history of Spain during the middle age,it included sewage system,street lightning,public baths plus a 2000 bed hospital two nurses for each ...it was the most prosperous european nation. For 700 years Spain was under Muslim rule thu they were pushed out in under 20 days Why?B/C of our weakened faith, we gave more priority to worldly pleasures!
ZainQasmi 2 days ago
@forgottenmemories63 I'm sorry to say but belief in ALLAH & CREATION is a fundamental part of Islam,ur point is flawed NO ISLAMIC SCHOLAR COULD HAVE SAID THAT.I suggest you study and evaluate both the theories yourself. Thats true the Greeks should be credited with a lot of development in science but ALOT (thousands) of Muslim research and books were literally burnt after invasion. I'm talking facts here, Most Muslim scientists and scholars during that era were actually DEVOUT Muslims.
ZainQasmi 2 days ago
@forgottenmemories63 Extremist? Brother you are a victim of the same propaganda by media/governments against Islam.Ever wondered why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world esp Europe?I'm pretty sure no one is being forced to convert. Infact all those bombings & terrorism -thats NOT ISLAM. Islam means "PEACE". So would you blame a religion of 1.8 billion followers just b/c a small band of people carry out such acts claiming to be Muslims?Btw "Kafir" means non-muslim,its not derogatory
ZainQasmi 2 days ago
@ZainQasmi Well, If we compare Christianity and Islam side by side during the dark ages, We see that Islamic scholars were the ones that made the most important discoveries for some time.
My point is what led to decline of Islamic Golden Age after the 12th Century ? It was the rise in - "Islam is Perfect and Quran cannot be questioned" mentality that lasts till this day. People became more religious and sparks of Curiosity and Interest disappeared in Islamic world as everything became "Haram".
forgottenmemories63 2 days ago
@noodlyblessing Thanks I'll check it out :D
CydoniaKnight1 2 months ago
What is the name of this presentation?
CydoniaKnight1 2 months ago
I never understand why religous people want do destroy science..! Or attack scientists.. Is like they are afraid they will ruin their herp de derp fun! But really, they just want to find out about stuff! Oh and another thing! As soon as you say you are a atheist they attack science in your face like you freaking made that shit. So annoying. I have nothing to do with science. I support it. But the truth is I just find the God idea extremly hard to fall for. There is no way kind of. Thats it.
Norwayflex89 3 months ago 3
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Neil deGrasse Tyson - "OUR COLLECTIVE FREE TIME NEEDS TO SHIFT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO EDUCATION. WHETHER YOU'RE A YOUNG STUDENT OR FINISHED SCHOOL LONG AGO, GET OUT TO THE LIBRARY WHENEVER YOU CAN AND WORK HARD TO LEARN EVERYTHING YOU CAN ABOUT THIS WORLD. EACH INDIVIDUAL AND SOCIETY WILL BENEFIT FROM BEING ABLE TO SOLVE MORE PROBLEMS AND MAKE BETTER DECISIONS. EDUCATION IS AN AMAZING DISCOVERY PROCESS THAT REPAYS YOU ENDLESSLY."
TheLogicalBrain 4 months ago
muslims do not listen to what Imams say :) imams are nothing to us... the quran is our guild.. quit the bull shit please :/
TheAbuayyash 4 months ago
@TheAbuayyash And the quran is a badle writeen book of fiction.
MissionaryMan 3 months ago 2
@MissionaryMan A destructive, self contradicting badly written piece of oppressive fiction.
Polydynamix 3 months ago
simply
The problem we have summed up in two main points:
1- Politicians interfering in the development of education curricula or placed on supervision
2- Clergymen are interfering in matters of politics is not to hold office, but in the explained to the simple, although their involvement is less than in the past, Europe
tht's it But we can repair the situation even though it will take more time but we can
omarfzo 5 months ago
No one knows who were the first mathematicians and astronomers. Many cultures first passed on information exclusively through language.
chroniclerofthe70s 5 months ago
al-ghazali didn't say that math is the work of the devil. he actually explains why it's true and explains why it's stupid to try and argue against math and science.
What he did say, is that it's not fulfilling to the soul, but I think this was more his personal opinion; I doubt it had much effect.
I don't really think he was the reason for the decline of science in baghdad and cordoba.
hasenj 5 months ago
@hasenj Your comment is right on. Great knowledge on your part and should be shared.
REASONINFUSION 5 months ago
Neil deGrasse Tyson is misinformed and is distorting history.
Just google "Neil DeGrasse Tyson and the Myth of Islamic Anti Science" and click on the article from thedailybanter(DOT)com.
It was war that drove the Islamic world away from scientific thought. The Islamic world came under attack from the west during the crusades, in addition to the path of destruction laid by mongol invaders.
War drove them to religious fundamentalism, kind of like the Tea Baggers of modern day USA.
n3bulous 5 months ago
@n3bulous Great comment although I think the Tea Baggers are more anti-Obama than anything else.
REASONINFUSION 5 months ago
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n3bulous 5 months ago
Arab nation is great in the past and i guess they will comeback in near future
akb6011 5 months ago
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The koran: a vain and futile attempt to clothe an otherwise naked and empty philosophy in some semblance of scientific credibility by invoking itself as its own written authority!
becharev 5 months ago
I'm a highschool student and I say mathematics is the work of the devil.
wasteofspace1234 5 months ago 57
@wasteofspace1234 just do wht u can do.try to undrestand a bit but not much:)
esraretin 5 months ago
@wasteofspace1234 I am a high school student, and I say your username is relevant.
killerkerara 4 months ago
@wasteofspace1234 I'm a mathematician and I say that you're an ignoramus.
bmxtra211 1 month ago
@wasteofspace1234 You just used a computer (or other device) to write this comment so maybe youre already on the dark side. ;)
TheButtonNose 1 month ago
Al-Ghazali considered "mathematics the work of devil" can someone provide any reference to his works where he said this thing...
MegaGamesbond 5 months ago
Algebra is not actually "Arabic" it was done by Persian Muslims just like Numerals that was done by Indian Muslims...Arabs themselves rarely did anything...If You search all These so called Arabic scientists 90% of them will end up Persian by lineage....
lordsohrab 6 months ago
@lordsohrab the word is Arabic. Much like all science terms these days are English even though a lot of science is done by people who don't speak English as their first language.
Arabs are not really a race, it's more of a culture.
hasenj 5 months ago
HOW DO Y- HOW DOE TH- HOW THE- HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN!!?!?!?
snookerrocks 6 months ago
Arabic numerals were called Hindsa by the Arabs, and they originated in ancient India.
anoopmknair 6 months ago
@anoopmknair Utter False & nonsense
euhss2004 6 months ago
@euhss2004
from Wiki:
Arabic numerals or Hindu numerals[1][2] or Hindu-Arabic numerals[2][3] are the ten digits (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). They are descended from the Hindu-Arabic numeral system developed by Indian mathematicians, in which a sequence of numerals such as "975" is read as a whole number.
search of arabic numerals in wiki.
anoopmknair 6 months ago
@euhss2004
Besides, this is info from primary school math.
anoopmknair 6 months ago
Sure...cut the video to show only a small segment of that was guilty and ignore that the world is guilty.
UrTheist 6 months ago
@UrTheist
/watch?v=6oxTMUTOz0w
mideastatheist 6 months ago
Ghazali isnt the reason
Muslims would never ever agree and follow one Imam
the real reason is wars
11th and 12th centuries Crusades no need to talk about this now
13th century Tatars war who destreyed all east half of islamic states
50% of islamic sicence books and researchs were destreyed in Bagdad by Tatar
Muslims stopped Tatar march in Jerusalem otherwise they would destrey the 2nd half in eygpt
even with these war muslims sciences didnt stop for sure
tarqoo3 7 months ago 4
@tarqoo3 While I agree that wars may have played an important part in the decline of Islamic civilization, I don't think you can really just blame war. The west has had plenty of wars also, huge ones just in this last century, but they didn't destroy science. I think de Grasse is using Ghazali as just one example of a trend in Islam around that time--free inquiry and exchange of ideas, math, knowing through observation--seem to have fallen out of favor, (continued)
DandAinTac 3 months ago 2
@tarqoo3 (cont)--and this same anti-intellectualism seems to have continued to this day. My evidence? Just one example: look at the reaction to The Satanic Verses. When authors, artists, intellectuals know that saying or showing certain things will get them killed, it tends to dampen free inquiry pretty quickly and thoroughly. So the events you describe happened centuries ago. If free inquiry were valued, they would have bounced back long before now. (cont)
DandAinTac 3 months ago 2
@tarqoo3 (cont) But don't think I'm just picking on Islam. The west went through it's own period of intellectual torpidity in the dark ages, at a time when the Islamic world was flourishing intellectually, and Christianity has within it, the seeds that could take us right back.
DandAinTac 3 months ago 2
@tarqoo3 while I totally agree with you on the fact that it was wars that put a halt to the science progress in the Abbasid Empire, the question is what happened after these wars ended: the Mamelouks who governed (as well as the Fatimids and all who followed) were not as open minded towards science as the Abbasids were and the influence of Al Ghazali became so potent that basically it is his teachings they teach in the religious schools of Baghdad and Cairo
salimzwein 2 months ago 4
@tarqoo3 Stop trying to proove islam right.
TheBelgianMethodd 2 months ago 2
@tarqoo3 shut up liar.tatars still attacking? no ! so u shut up! stop blaming others anymore!
esraretin 1 month ago
@tarqoo3 ghazali is the reason, perhaps not the only one, but his teachings and his way of "thinking" he taught it a main aspect of it. the best case is ibn rushd's life for that.
venustasveritatis 1 month ago
I always feel like weeping whenever I'm reminded about the scientific and intellectual long-past glory days of Islam, because it contrasts very poorly with the broad picture of Islam today.
EVLWNS 7 months ago
I love Tyson. He's so animated.
featuringfranklin 7 months ago
Tragic.
overether 8 months ago
So basically Muslims used to be great at stuff then some twat said it's a work of the devil and Muslims have been acting like a bunch of cunts ever since.
Zed1967 8 months ago
@Zed1967 Yes, exactly. All religions are like that... They deny the truth, spread lies and try to control populations. Any religion is like poison. It is like a virus.
Dalamen 7 months ago
way to control solar system is discovered by alien X... stupid alien who is dumped from its planet to earth
hahaha
dfdtdfdx 8 months ago
"If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants." --Isaac Newton.
All human advancement is built on those who have come before us. This oneupsmanship on who owes what knowledge to whom is missing the point. Dr. Tyson spoke on the circumstances of Islamic scholarship and what caused its collapse. The "whos" were incidental.
RickySTT 8 months ago
It is a common assumption that the Arab world invented the zero, and it was downhill ever since then. This is false, but unfortunately not an uncommon mistake. Our numeral system dates back to India during the post-Roman era, but it came to Europe via the medieval Middle East which is why these numbers are called “Arabic” numbers in many European languages. Fjordman at the Gates of Vienna has an article "A Brief History of of Zero and Indian Numerals" on this subject.
Coupal1 8 months ago
@Coupal1 and I think you get it wrong, it is completely true that Zero was invited by Islamic Scientist, even the whole number system >> it is called Arabic Number. You can search the web and find the translated book from the original Arabic one.
India has its own number system characters.
ahmedhamdy90 8 months ago
Indian numerals. The biggest discovery man has ever made was 0 - made by Indians
tjohn1986 9 months ago
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@tjohn1986 it is Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Khwarizmi whose invited the zero in his "Keys of the Sciences"
you can check
en . wikipedia . org/wiki/0_%28number
history . mcs.st-and.ac . uk/HistTopics/Zero . html
ahmedhamdy90 8 months ago
zero and decimal numbers are from india.
drbonkie 9 months ago
If he were to honestly survey the world for oppression of thought and came up with Christians in the USA while ignoring those we vehemently oppose then he is either being disingenuine or is incredibly mis-informed.
rockhound1776 9 months ago
@jjhjjff if Wikipedia page is accurate this video suggests a completely misrepresentation of Al-Ghazali, but is accurate that that philosophy described became prevalent.But the history is inaccurate.
subpopulations 9 months ago
I don't think this is very accurate. Al-Ghazali didn't attack mathematics. He criticized philosophers in his book, "The incoherence of the Philosophers".
jjhjjff 9 months ago
People seem to be forgetting that arabic mathematicians got their stuff from indian mathematicians, im not saying its a bad thing but each civilization should be given credit for the development and further understanding of mathematics in these modern times and btw indians came up with a lot things zero, pi and surgery The first surgery conducted was the NOSE JOB or rhinoplasty. Just search up aryabhatta, bramhagupta and susruta ull get ur answer :D The overall message: GIVE EVERYONE CREDIT :D
carzyballer06 10 months ago
Heh, it actually IS a lot like what the USA now has with those crazy christians "NO, Biology is of the devil, let's teach creationism instead!".
RedNifre 10 months ago
@RedNifre
Regrettably, America's influence is spreading to UK faith schools >.<
Thank God if there is one that I've been taught at secular institutions all my life! This is just me personally, but I don't see why evolution etc and religion can't co-exist. Objective secular science and optional religious belief, of course, not a mixture of the two!
Portubella12458 10 months ago
Can someone show me how Islam was responsible for the 300 years of scientific exploration in Baghdad? Islam wasn't responsible for it, in fact, if 100% of Islam was practiced in Baghdad during that 300 years, there wouldn't be any scientific exploration or exchange of ideas. Islam dims the light of intellect and reason.
quickpua 10 months ago
@quickpua
Islam is responsible for the 300 years of scientific exploration because Islam mandates Muslims to acquire knowledge.
The very first word Muhammad recited from the quran is "Iqra" which means to "recite/read".
Read about all those scientists and you will find out each and every one of them saying Islam is the reason for their thirst for knowledge. That is why these scientific advancement are credited to Islam.
Xzibillionaire 10 months ago
@Xzibillionaire Islam saying acquire knowledge? What kind of knowledge? Which part of Islam teaches scientists about logic? Which part about science? Which part about the scientific method? Islam wasn't the cause of the 300 years of scientific exploration in Baghdad, this would have happened with or without Islam. If Islam was the cause, then the Islamic world would have been the bastion of science, not what it is and has been for a thousand years.
quickpua 10 months ago
@Xzibillionaire Can you show me any references to our claim that "each and eery one" of the scientists claiming that Islam is the reason for "their thirst for knowledge"?
quickpua 10 months ago
By the looks of it, it seems that Tyson has made some errors and even some mistaken assumption in his speech. However, he still highlights a good point: Islam was once brightened the world with art and science, as well as the caretakers of tolerance, but has since decended into an utterly primitive religion to a degree just above neanderthals. Funny how the Muslim v. Christian table has so vastly turned over time.
multitudeofidols 10 months ago
I tried to verify Tyson's claims here about such a man really believing and influencing everyone that "math is the work of the Devil." Any basic biography I found on al-Ghazali didn't say anything about this. He might have made some strange philosophical claims, but nowhere did he influence the entire Islamic world that rational scientific thought is evil. At the least he seemed to have actually encouraged it.
Moontouchofficial 10 months ago
@Moontouchofficial
i don't know is the "math is the work of the devil" is an actual quote from al-ghazali or not. however, later in his life al-ghazali rejected his earlier work and turned to sufism, a kind of hard line islamic school of thought. his embrace of sufism, coupled with his influence contributed to the decline of scientific progress in the muslim world. yes, there where other factors but he did contribute to it in a large way.
rns13 10 months ago
@rns13 Can you provide any articles/info on that?
Moontouchofficial 10 months ago
@Moontouchofficial
Huff, Toby (2003), The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China, and the West, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521529948
rns13 10 months ago
@rns13 Referring to printed sources in 2011 in an Internet discussion really doesn't do it anymore...It ain't 1992.
Moontouchofficial 10 months ago
@Moontouchofficial
a book isn't good enough? what "basic biography" did you read, wikipedia? way to move those goal posts.
sorry, sometimes knowledge requires effort, can't get everything feed to you through the tubes.
rns13 10 months ago
@rns13 Actually, no. If it (scholarly material) isn't alive and well on the Internet it's most likely because it's been proven wrong or it has no more use at least, just like you can still find very old books on spontaneous generation.
Moontouchofficial 10 months ago
@Moontouchofficial
absolutely false statement. many, many books are not instantly put on line that are still valid and not proven wrong.
just a quick question, what exactly would you consider a "valid" source.
also could you please provide your sources?
rns13 10 months ago
@Moontouchofficial There are were different schools of thought in Islamic World at that time (You probably noticed it). One of them is Avicenna, Alpharabius, Alkindus, Averroes and their followers. Those guys try to merge Ancient Greek Philosophy with Islam. Most of them are scientists etc. and the other side is Ghazali. Ghazali declare them as "infidels". And you know the famous cotton & fire thing.
kemalcs 9 months ago
by the way, it is Indian numbers ,zero was used by Babylons somewhere near 2 millennium BC. Also many of prominent astronomers, mathematicians and other notable persons were from greater ex-Persian empire (Uzbekistan,Iran, etc.) or Turks and other nations, which they were already rich in culture and science and these notable figures studied those subjects even further. One more thing: when Arabs conquered Nations such as Persian, they robbed, destroyed and burned all the buildings and Books
TobiHoKageSama 11 months ago 11
@TobiHoKageSama
You're racist trying to change truthful facts!
Genghis Khan who invaded Baghdad and kill massively numerous people and burned Baghdad main library.
Stop being racist!
samii1981 8 months ago
@samii1981 Dude, we are talking about the Muslim invasion of Persia during the Sassanid Empire, following by other invasions to east and west !! At that time even forefather of Chengiz Khan was not on the face of this miserable plant !!! I am not Racist, and you better stop being poorly-educated !!! Just give it a try, start studying history and English, It might help next time !!!
The fact is Islam-world owes its knowledge to civilizations such as Babylon, Persia, India, etc.
TobiHoKageSama 8 months ago
@TobiHoKageSama Fact? It's not a fact until you prove it. Please give me a source that states that the ancient Persians/Babylonians/Assyrians discovered Algebra, Algorithms etc.
Vulkaye 8 months ago
@Vulkaye what are you fucking kidding me? really? its in all the text books and Wikipedia. the ancients of the day discovered all of this way way before the knights were retaking Constantinople. go back to Aristotle "happiness can be achieved through the cultivation of the mind." even calculus was discovered back in the day.
rukus100821 7 months ago
@rukus100821 Are YOU kidding me? ALL books that I've read state the opposite AS WELL as Wikipedia.
Vulkaye 7 months ago
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@rukus100821 well now your going to have to do a comparison.
rukus100821 7 months ago
@TobiHoKageSama Provide books and where you got the information from please. As I have studied the islamic history and can say that what you wrote/read is false.
elyembty 5 months ago
the funny thing is that SOME PEOPLE forget about the ancient civilizations which were already extinct (like: Babylon, Assyria, Old-Indians) or those who were conquered and destroyed by Arab Muslims (e.g: Persian empire, and the rest). All those mathematics and astronomy and stuff are dated 1000 years back before Islam. :)
TobiHoKageSama 11 months ago 3
@TobiHoKageSama When did the Persians become Arabs? Babylon had fallen hundreds of years before Islam even became a religion.
Vulkaye 8 months ago
@Vulkaye Dude, Go learn some English before you start commenting ! I never said that Iranians (including Persians) were/are Arabs. In fact what I said is that Arab and Islamic world owes its knowledge to pre-Islam civilizations such as Persia, Babylon, Assyria and etc. !!! Gush I dont even know why I am repeating myself again !!! Cheers !
TobiHoKageSama 8 months ago
@TobiHoKageSama The same could be said about the Europeans since all ancient technologies were the foundation. You claim that all the Arab inventions/discoveries were made by the earlier civilizations which is completely invalid. What ancient civilization discovered Algebra? Civil Engineering? Advanced chemistry/alchemy? None, all those things where discovered/invented by ARABS. Me learn English? No, you learn history. Your lugubrious attempt to deprecate the Arabs has failed. Cheers!
Vulkaye 8 months ago
According to Wikipedia, Ghazali was in favor of mathematics. Math was part of his philosophy; and to quote him regarding the math and science behind eclipses: "Whosoever thinks that to engage in a disputation for refuting such a theory is a religious duty harms religion and weakens it. For these matters rest on demonstrations, geometrical and arithmetical, that leave no room for doubt."
Tensaiga17 11 months ago
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The Quran says that sperm is generated in the Backbone[Quran 86:6]. This idea was proposed by Greek scientists, and copied by Mohammed. If we had copyright laws 1400 years ago, Mohammed would have been jailed for copyright infringement and there would be no Islam today.
islamfalse 11 months ago
i cant find where Ghazali said that mathematics was the work of the devil ?? anyone find a quote ??
whoolikesshortshorts 11 months ago
Neil Tyson doesn't believe in Allah. Neither do I. but I do respect the knowledge that was contributed by muslim scholars and sceintists. :-)
Darw1n1st 11 months ago
anyone who gives you a belief system is your enemy - the belief system will become a barrier for your eyes. religious people cling to their faith because their feeble ego-based minds need answers even if those answers are absurd. let go and they will experience fear and uncertainty and they can't deal with that. their man-made fiction gives them consolation, opium. thank God I don't need that.
upaste 11 months ago
Islamic scholar Ibn Khaldun who asserted that "humans developed from "the world of the monkeys"
Another islamic scholar Ibn Al jahiz has a book called kitab al haywan where he states environment being a factor for evolution in species.
Tyson is misinformed about the decline. It was the mongol barbarian raiding of bhagdad that brought down the progression in those time.
Xzibillionaire 11 months ago 8
@Xzibillionaire: "Ibn Khaldun who asserted that "humans developed from "the world of the monkeys""
Interesting. I looked him up and his book Muqaddimah, which confirms your statement. Given things like this, I'm willing to accept that Tyson was most likely mistaken in the details. He was speaking outside his area of expertise. However, do you think Ibn Khaldun would agree that revelation is no substitute for investigation? That's Tyson's real point, he just seems to have picked a bad example.
theinquisitor 11 months ago 40
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mideastatheist 6 months ago
@Xzibillionaire lookup "Arabic numerals" in any encyclopedia, they were actually Indian numerals, and only then passed on to Arabs. Arabic numerals are actually INDIAN NUMERALS!
kostaad 10 months ago
@Xzibillionaire at "humans developed from "the world of the monkeys"
Humans didn't 'develop from monkeys'. We share a common ancestor as we do with squirrels, frogs, ants etc.
robintimothycard 10 months ago
@Xzibillionaire thats true but after the the raiding al ghazzaly was the main source, which from his books people would start to think that the other philosophers are heretics and this wars were lessons from god :) I can imagine how a middle eastern mind would think .
thugyheadbanger 10 months ago
@Xzibillionaire ur actually right.. but lets not forget in times after ebn khaldoun and el Razi and even during those times, science wasnt the easiest thing to do,.. where in europe it was a way to pass time for rich people, in the middle east it was a hunger for truth.. and do u really think ebn khaldoun could have stated his point without resistance by the fondamentalist groups that were there also in those times.. just like evolution with evangelical americans these days just with more blood
eliasjabbour31337 10 months ago
@Xzibillionaire "Tyson is misinformed about the decline. It was the mongol barbarian raiding of bhagdad that brought down the progression in those time."
You make it sound as though the Mongol raids were the SOLE reason. I totally agree that they played a big role, but so did the invention of Islam. Had the Arab cultures wanted to reignite this progression, the centuries rule of the Ottoman Empire could have easily facilitated this, but it never happened. Islam clearly stood in the way.
nosajj12345 9 months ago
@Xzibillionaire : Tyson talks not about the decline of islamic civilization, but the decline of the islamic brain wich start collapsing with the imam ghazali thoughts
infochips1999 8 months ago
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@Xzibillionaire Ibn Khaldun was not then a Muslim; Because Islam states that ALL human beings comes from
ADAM AND EVE.
ViruzNoob14 8 months ago
@Xzibillionaire Ibn Khaldun was a great thinker of the late middle ages. However his evolution like ideas seem to be dependent on a book from the previously mentioned Islam golden age. The Encyclopedia of the Brethren of purity.
commonberus1 8 months ago
@Xzibillionaire Although I agree that the sack of Baghdad slowed growth, remember that under the mongolian rule, free speech and science were fully encouraged. The muslim world started to decline since the begging of the crusades. Ghazali probably played a very important role in that decline, the sack of Baghdad was just the coup de grace in my opinion.
Korianne75 7 months ago
@Xzibillionaire It seems to me that Ibn Khaldun was too intelligent for his religion. Even if he did state that, the Quran which is the ultimate authority, directly contradicts it by extending the Jewish and Christian tradition of an adam and eve being created by God.
AFGknight 7 months ago
@AFGknight
Ibn Khaldun credited all of his scientific, philosophical work to Islam. He even said it to be the only reason for his quench for knowledge. There are new theories about multiple origins of life. The Quran does mention creatures,humans being on earth before Adam and eve.
Xzibillionaire 7 months ago
@Xzibillionaire Again, looks like he was too intelligent for his religion. The Quran mentions no such thing, stop talking out of your ass. The Quran is dated back to the 7th century while Ibn Khaldun was a 14th century historian. Lol, Muslims. Anything significant they find about anything, they try to tie it back to their religion.
AFGknight 7 months ago
@AFGknight
Retard, go look up Ibn Khalduns inspiration. He mentions ISLAM retard. Its not me its Ibn Khaldun who credited his own work to Islam. And guess what at that time Islam was in full swing in the society he lived in.
Darwin's contemporary, Sir William Draper, called it the Mohammedan Theory of Evolution for a fucking reason. fucking arrogant know it all bitch.
Xzibillionaire 7 months ago
@Xzibillionaire Oh, so because Khaldun mentions ISLAM for his inspiration, ISLAM gets the credit? What a stupid fucking myrmidon. If Albert Einstein mentioned the Bible for his inspiration on the theory of relativity, would that mean the Theory of Relativity is extrapolated in the Bible? Oh no wait, you've enlightened me. A fucking British army officer states its the Mohammedan theory so IT MUST BE. Why didn't Darwin mention it? Or Lamarck for that matter?
AFGknight 7 months ago
@Xzibillionaire lol its so fucking funny. Not even the Khaldun theory, but the MOHAMMEDAN theory. You Muslims make me fucking sick. A historian notes something 700 fucking years after Islam was founded and suddenly, Islam is responsible. Especially when it directly and blatantly contradicts the theory of evolution by clearly stating that God created Adam and Eve. Now go cry "OH DERP METAPHOR DERP", "ANYTHING I LIKE IS LITERAL, ANYTHING WRONG IS A METAPHOR" ahahahaha fucking morons.
AFGknight 7 months ago
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Xzibillionaire 7 months ago
@AFGknight
Yo dawg I heard you like evolution so i put evolution into evolution so you can keep herp derping bullshit.
I did not call it Muhammadan theory cock-sucking dumbfuck. Sir William Draper did you fuckface. Get that through your thick fucking skull. I didnt say Islam was responsible the Historian and the scientist themselves did cocksucker becuase all of those innovation happened under sharia law. Fucking retard.
Xzibillionaire 7 months ago
@Xzibillionaire So why the fuck would you mention Sir William Draper calling it the Mohammedan theory if its of no relevance? What a brainless fuck. A British army officer has no credibility talking about these concepts just like your beloved pedo-prophet. By claiming that the historian and scientists said so, you are implying that the concept is Islamic. Though its ok to take it back once your arguments have been shot to shit. Show me where in the Quran it talks about evolution.
AFGknight 7 months ago
@Xzibillionaire All of those innovations happened under Sharia Law? Ibn Khaldun was part of the Hafsid Dynasty. A fucking MONARCHY, which is NOT ISLAMIC. When countries like Saudi and Iran fuck shit up under "SHARIA", Muslim apologists flock together and spout its not true Sharia because they are monarchies and dictatorships. Though if something good is happening under those same monarchies and dictatorships, ITS SHARIA LAW!. Stop wasting your life, go get a real education for fucks sake.
AFGknight 7 months ago
@Xzibillionaire
"It was the mongol barbarian raiding of bhagdad that brought down the progression in those time."
I mostly agree, however, Al Ghazali's way of thinking also contributed. See the creationism movement of Christians and Muslims today? That's kind of what I'm talking about...It's quite sad that Greek and Arab intellectual empires collapsed, it's a shame really, and it has me worried about the current days.
TurboDally 6 months ago
@TurboDally
First off this is orientalist bs.
Ghazali pioneered “methodic doubt” and “skepticism”, both of which would play a foundational roll in all the secular movements to come. He was also opposed by one of the greatest minds in the Muslim world Ibn Rashid (Averroes). Al Ghazali actually called mathematics of his day praiseworthy adding, “…because of their absence, the community would be reduced to narrow straits.”
Tyson needs to show proof instead of talking about vibes he gets.
Xzibillionaire 6 months ago
@Xzibillionaire Two references to recent books on evolution doesn't invalidate Tyson's claim.
carveyournamein 6 months ago
@carveyournamein
One fucking man Al ghazali who actually wrote numerous books for science, mathematics cannot undermine a whole education system. After all, Ghazali pioneered “methodic doubt” and “skepticism”, both of which would play a foundational roll in all the secular movements to come in Europe. Either way he was also opposed by one of the greatest minds the Muslim world would produce, Ibn Rashid (Averroes) who also pioneered in polymaths in their day ..
Xzibillionaire 5 months ago