Charles Wilson on the Soviet-Afghanistan War - Part 1 (1988)

[prrolg]

Fascinating report. The moderator is extremely professional as well which I appreciate to the max.

[JASHVEER22]

for all losers who view this guy as a hero well faggots your enemy who is inflicting casualties on US forces in Astan in Haqqani yes bitches the same man whom your dear President met in 1987 google for a photo.

REAP AS YOU SOW BITCHES!!!!!!

[daanvl]

I am a man with an open mind that can ask a question to the point that only the question remains. Your note needs a polite reaction, do some research before formulating an opinion that only proves one thing . Your lack of thinking, good luck with your narrow vision.

[JASHVEER22]

never let a drunkard,womaniser get into politics now see the result that loser is responsible for today's mess yet some rever him...

burn in hell faggot

[grnbaypack4]

@JASHVEER22 you are obviously uneducated. it wasnt his fault the US didn;t stick around. maybe CIA, NSA, and top levels of the US gov't are to blame. clinton came in and stopped fucking with afghanistan. the russians are evil, even after the fall of the soviet empire, through the 90s and still today they would fuckUSA over in a heartbeat but everyone thinks they are our friends for some reason. perestroika was a good thing, unfortunatly a bunch of shit trucks took over and kept screwing the ppl.

[JASHVEER22]

@grnbaypack4 WHAT sort of educated man gives islamic loonies who were throwing acid on women face for not wearing veil?? grab a book and stop yapping cnn propaganda.

[grnbaypack4]

@JASHVEER22 ha your telling me i need to pick up a book? um i have a personal library of like 300 books, of which ive read most. charlie wilson didnt personally give anyone weapons. the ISI and the intelligence agency of saudi arabia are the ones who gave most of the weapons to the most militant radical extremists. blame the cia too. just get your facts straight before you start yapping. btw i watch jeopardy on tv and not much else besides nfl network so "go choke on a cow dick loser".

[JASHVEER22]

@grnbaypack4 loser what about the your president ronald reagan meeting these mullahs in white house thats also according to you is a lie.

fucker get your facts straight and accept that so long these bastards were bitting Russia it was with US blessing and they were called soldiers of God now when they started kicking the west then they become terrrorist.

heymaktyar and his cronies were all recipients of US aid even Stinger missiles!!! loser

[mcamoran]

The so called "cold war", on the one hand "communism" work for the elite of the state and wait for the state to throw a bone to be feed and on the other hand "capitalism" work for the "elite" of the government and we throw you a piece of bread and a bone that you have to struggle to get to feed yourself. Is there any American who watched this video and believed that the "phone calls" were true? Controlled perception of reality, TV nation!

[Allante715]

Would Afghanistan be any worse off with a Soviet puppet state? One could argue that without US intervention, Al-Qeada would have never existed, 9/11 would have never happened, and we wouldn`t be in two wars right now. Of course hindsight is 20/20 but these politicians were always SO focused on the Soviets that they did not properly gauge what kind of people they were helping and what unforeseen consequences can occur. They did the same with Pol Pot in Cambodia. He was evil but he was anti-commie

[BunnyOnDrugZ]

@Allante715 wilson was payed by the government to get weapons for the afghans but wilson wanted independence and freedom for afghanistan.after the afghans defeated the sowiets they didnt gave charlie money anymore although wilson wanted stabilize afghanistan.the us HAD enough money but they left the afghans alone in their destructed state full of mines the us government was just focused on the soviets and the ressources in afgh.afghans arent evil theyre just pissed

[2fast4uspartan]

tom hanks looks better

[farneyblakeley]

eastern people, neutral like Finland, right

[Moslemtroglodytes]

I have always wondered why we constantly read and hear of "the Soviet-Afghan war" , "the Soviet war in Afghanistan", "the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan" and don't hear about "the US-led jihad in Afghanistan", "the American-Afghan jihadism", "the CIA-made jihad " or something like that ... After all it is what "Operation Cyclone" did amount to , didn't it ?

[clyton143]

charlie wilson gave afghanistan their life back and the rest of the US goverment took it back..........

[jmlbloom]

can someone explain how this was a covert u.s. war if wilson is on tv talking about it?

[jmlbloom]

I started losing my hair at 21. I'm so jealous of people like charlie, and reagan for that matter.

[JASHVEER22]

THANKS careless bugger you triggered islamic fundamentalism now its payback time bitch

[bluecollarlit]

@JASHVEER22 He meant well. And -- you can solve one gi-normous problem, & then the "ball keeps on bouncing," as it says in the film, "Charlie Wilson's War" -- you can't control the future, & at the end of that film, Charlie Wilson is quoted as saying (in rather more colorful language than I'll use) that we didn't follow up well, on that situation. problem wasn't his initial effort & success, it was lack of follow-up ...congress felt like, that problem's solved, on to the next...

[JASHVEER22]

@bluecollarlit i expect a senator to have more common sense and foresight than a civilian when making decision hence you cannot claim that he didn't screwed big time. Furthermore the effects of Charlie actions were felt by the west after a decade only.

But see how these monkeys he armed caused trouble in Central Asia,Russia and South East Asia.As such Charlie is a dick

[TheBBQribs]

@JASHVEER22 Look at it this way. If Charlie wouldn't have supplied the Mujahideen, the Soviets would have taken over Afganistan, the U.S. would have been outraged over what happened, and nukes would have been exchanged.

If that would have happened, I don't think that there would be anything left of the world.

[davehutchinson67]

@TheBBQribs who knows the winds of history..but I can tell you this. Charles Wilson, for all his faults managed to engineer a damned hell of a fight. We may still be dealing with the aftermath...I wish we had him now....I really do. He might be one of the few pols who would know how to get at the backstory of 9/11 and nail it.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@TheBBQribs "If Charlie wouldn't have supplied the Mujahideen, the Soviets would have taken over Afganistan,the U.S. would have been outraged ... and nukes would have been exchanged." That's nonsense.No nuclear war would have followed the Soviet victory over the US-backed jihad in Afghanistan.Soviet Afghanistan would mean equality for women, land reform, the end of tribalism and feudalism in Afghanistan, safety for the Buddha statues and a few other things like no 9/11 or Osama Bin Laden...

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@TheBBQribs But bastards and dull fanatics like Charlie Wilson or Z. Brzezinsky had a different scenario for our future which we are living through now - with Afghanistan the first heroine-based economy in the world and the primary breeding ground of jihadism , with 3000 Americans dead on a single day and never ending Islam-driven terrorism against the former so generous teachers and sponsors of this terrorism . 

[davehutchinson67]

@JASHVEER22 excuse me....As i remember most people at the time..and I was in that time, all remember our collective attitude toward the Soviet Union. The connection was the only thing available. I mean wtf, soviet takeover of Afghanistan....or the US and Israel go in bi laterally and then it's WW III. Charlie did more good than harm..and isn't that all any of us can hope for?

[JASHVEER22]

@davehutchinson67 go and spread the word on the so called good actions of Charlie Wilson the monkeys that he armed targeted US only in 2001 but do you know that scores of people died in Central and South East Asia since 1989. USA policy backfired they are guilty for the lack of foresight in arming these fundamentalist.

Also remember that these fundamentalist had prior to 1979 anti--west rhetoric but US just wanted to gave USSR a bloody nose and they armed these suckers to wreck havoc.

[shore2222]

If we hadn't armed the Afghan rebels in the 1980s the USSR would still exist and still be there continuing to murder the people of Afghanistan who bitterly opposed them anyway. The Soviets murdered 2 million people in that war and completly devastated the Afghan countryside. Plus the groups we directly funded grew up to become the Northern Alliance not the Taliban or Al Qaeda. Charlie Wilson is a hero and must always be remembered that way.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@bapyou The most extreme, backwards & reactionary Afghans opposed the Soviet presence. Afghanistan had a leftist government which brought needed reforms: schools; women's rights; heatlh clinics. Afghanistan reverted back to the 13th century after the 1980s.Conservatives you are the fucking scum of the Earth." Great comment , my friend!I fully agree with you!The conflict in Afghanistan was a war of progressive ideals against the regressive ones supported and sponsored generously by the US.

[grnbaypack4]

@bapyou how can you call conservatives the scum of the earth when you librals are just as bad? maybe the answer lies in the middle instead of the extreme. stop being so damned polarized, weve had this convo before havn't we...the US gov't didnt exchange weapons directly with the extremeists, the wakistanis gave the weapons directly to the extremist. when actual US personnel were directly involved most weapons went to the more moderate fighters who were killing commies for thier country as well.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@shore2222 "The Soviets murdered 2 million people in that war and completly devastated the Afghan countryside."Since you seem to know the statistics so well, will you kindly tell us how many Afghans were assassinated,maimed and slaughtered in internecine wars and clashes between different rivalling factions, groups and parties which you were supporting and sponsoring?Did you also include in those 2 mln all the foreign jihadists smuggled into Afghanistan by the US and killed by the Soviets?

[grnbaypack4]

well regardless of who got the most weapons, it was pay back for vietnam and the soviets deserved it. its a shame we didn't continue our efforts there maybe things would have been different, and its a shame those fucking people are so ate up they believe all that twisted bullshit the mullahs teach anyway. i hope those guys get to "paradise" and the 72 virgins are all dudes. also, we should have ousted sadam in the first gulf war and done something with north korea bfore they went nuclear.

[grnbaypack4]

but thats what the fuck happens when the voting public only gives a shit about gucci and prada and and hip hop and hand outs... much too worried about american idol and the bachelor to have time to THINK or be educated. stop being ignorant, selfish, lazy... start paying attention to whats going on and try and make a difference. stop making talking politics/foreign policy cliche or lame. hector i thank you for being informed although something tells me we disagree ideologically(maybe its ur name)

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@grnbaypack4 In Bosnia in 1995 the US created an Islamic state in Europe at the expense of the Christian Serbs.In Kosovo a few years later the same outrageous story was repeated.Now the US role in Afghanistan fits quite well in this larger pattern.The US has become a spearhead of jihad , perhaps even worse than al-Qaida since al-Qaida has created not a single Moslem state.The US has created at least two with no doubt dire consequences for the future.

[grnbaypack4]

@Moslemtroglodytes the U.S. is the spearhead of jihad?.......fuck now ive heard them all. what kind of nonsense are you listening to? seriously? im not saying the US is perfect and all its decisions are right either, but come on does that make any sense? do you have any solid evidence to back that up or is it mere speculation? just curious.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@grnbaypack4  "the U.S. is the spearhead of jihad?...fuck now ive heard them all.what kind of nonsense are you listening to?seriously?"Just one question for you: What connection can you see between "Operation Cyclone" and jihad?The US created intentionally the monster of jihad hoping it would never turn on its creator but it did and quite soon.I can add the US carried out this mad policy discarding all warnings and has never repudiated or regretted it!

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@grnbaypack4 "but come on does that make any sense? do you have any solid evidence to back that up or is it mere speculation? just curious." Jihad was promoted,propagandized,finance­d,armed and trained by the US as a weapon to beat the USSR in Afghnaistan and Central Asia with.In part it did its job quite well but jihad's own logic made the alliance between US kafirs and US-sponsored jihadists short-lived.When one kafir was dealt with it was high time to deal with the other.

[publicmario17]

@Moslemtroglodytes Nor it's acceptable for the Serbs killed as many as thousands of Bosniaks and Croats due to fact the Serbs started the Bosnian war by firing the first shot. Nice lies. The Bosniaks and Croatian Army actually hated radical Islamist but the reason they recruited them because they felt they are theo nly opition to fight the serbs(Until NATO intervened). If Bosnia was an radical Islamic state, it would be like Saudi Arabian which clearly isn't it. Try again.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@publicmario17 There is no way to whitewash or disculpate those who from the very beginning wanted to dismember Yugoslavia. The international law and valid agreements like the Helsinki accords of 1975 were clearly on the Serbian side - no territorial changes in Europe,no redrawing of the map of Europe, no questioning of state borders.The territorial integrity of states was solemnly guaranteed by the UN.So not Milosevic but Tudjman and Izetbegovic should have been brought to justice.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@publicmario17 "The Bosniaks and Croatian Army actually hated radical Islamist but the reason they recruited them because they felt they are theo nly opition to fight the serbs" That's nonsense! As early as 1992 there was a fromal fatwa declaring jihad against the Serbs.At first the Iranians, warmly encouraged and actively assisted by the US, were the most prominent foreign jihadists. Later came the Arabs with Bin Laden, Pakis,Chechens and other Moslem criminal rabble.Many of them stayed in.

[publicmario17]

@Moslemtroglodytes Most of the Bosniaks and Croatian Army doesn't like Muslims coming from middle east but the reason why they recruited them because it's the only help they could get unless U.S./NATO warplanes butt in and attacked Serb troops in 1995. Not until after 1995 when the war ended, most of them began booting them out of the military and attempt to hide.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@publicmario17 "If Bosnia was an radical Islamic state, it would be like Saudi Arabian which clearly isn't it." Clearly? Who has sponsored all the new mosques in Bosnia and where the Bosnian imams are studying and getting scholarships from? Fool someone else with your lies and propaganda, you damned Moslem fifth columnist !

[publicmario17]

@Moslemtroglodytes Mosque is everywhere even in Canada and the U.S and all around the world. What's your point? Now show me the laws in Bosnia and compares it to Saudi Arabia.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@grnbaypack4 "well regardless of who got the most weapons, it was pay back for vietnam and the soviets deserved it." In this particular case the Soviets deserve praise and respect.The difference between the Vietnam war and the war in Afghanistan is that after the former ended some basic order and stability prevailed while the outcome of the other has been more war,more violence and chaos.This shows a difference between the two powers.The Soviets brought social progress,the US social regress.

[grnbaypack4]

@Moslemtroglodytes ok now its obvious you were raised by the soviets and what you learned in "school" is as biased or worse than what i learned in my american school. and if you know your history you would understand that vietnam and afghanistan are two entirely diff. countries. religion politics ideology culture economics etc are entirely different. vietnam is stable when a foreign power is not there. afghanistan is full of militant extremists who hate USA. vietnam just wanted its independence.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@grnbaypack4 "its obvious you were raised by the soviets and what you learned in "school" is as biased or worse than what i learned in my american school' You make far-reaching claims.If one were to believe you,then remembering the communists carried out the land reform,abolished feudalism,assured women's rights and equality,fought drugs,built schools in a c. 95% illiterate country is "biased or worse"?I wonder if your incongruent claims reflect more the poor American school system or you?

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@grnbaypack4 " vietnam is stable when a foreign power is not there."Are you suggesting that under the French rule Vietnam was very unstable and before its annexation by Napoleon III it was so stable?The problem of stability is much more than a foreign power or its lack, even though not so seldom a foreign power with the political habits of the US can destabilize the most stable country if it benefits in any way its so called "national interests".

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@grnbaypack4 The US policy in Afghanistan in the 80-ies was best characterized by a former CIA case officer John Stockwell as "shotgun destabilization".Who sows the wind reaps the whirlwind. I recommend Stockwell's testimonies which you can find here on Youtube as by all means he's a trustworthy and knowledgeable guy who calls a spade a spade.

[Moslemtroglodytes]

@grnbaypack4 "afghanistan is full of militant extremists who hate USA." How many of them are in US records as graduates of the CIA-run camps for jihadists supposed to kill Russians with weapons and expertise provided by the US,and eulogized by bastards like president R. Reagan, senator Charlie Wilson or Zbigniew Brzezinski?Once you sell your soul and body to jihadists,you shouldn't later expect preferential treatment.Jihadists have no mercy even for their own former prostitutes.

[daanvl]

@Moslemtroglodytes Read some Socrates, Plato, Marcus Aurelius, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Jiddu Krishnamurti then take a good look at your self

[RawrUrAFag]

Tom Hanks looks nothing like this guy.

[EuromanMovieReport]

It was a democractic administration who using Charlies own words "f*cked up the end game".

Wonder how he feelt about that ?

[grnbaypack4]

@EuromanMovieReport i concure, if clinton would have stayed the course in afghanistan instead of trying to get his dick wet maybe things would have been different. blame also prob lies with the upper echelon of the intelligence community for not correctly analysing the threat as well.

[EuromanMovieReport]

In vids of the real Gust ?

[EuromanMovieReport]

Its fun to watch this. Always imagined how he would have sounded in real life :)

[MEATYOKERRable]

Wow... we were warned and people knew. How did we get stuck in this mess?

[TheMusab01]

Charlie Wilson cowboy of texas love it :)

[brittboyer1]

R.I.P Charlie Wilson!!!

[grnbaypack4]

@brittboyer1 damn, he died too, wtf? why wasn't there a news story on it or a national week of rememberance? o wait thats right, the media in this country is stocked full of uneducated clowns more worried about which celebrity has a new porno out than reporting actual news stories. R.I.P. Gustavos L. Avrakotos

[Nihilismmm]

I find this interview very ironic, especially the part where C. Wilson says "ironic".

[CazK88]

Great hero...charles wilson!

If you saw the movie...it was great. Charlie Wilson's War gave us a synopsis on what it was like. If you haven't seen the movie, click here:

watch?v=n461ja8M_7k

[MissMelodia4U]

The new government of Afghanistan will be like Austria or Finland ...#LOL

[bapyou]

There are so many ironies in Wilson's statements here that I'm not going to even bother to point them out. WIlson's -- & Reagan's -- all-consuming anti-commie paranoia are directly responsible for the horror of a government inflicted upon the Afghan people in the 1990s & beyond. Wilson & CIA were funding Osama bin Laden at the very moment Wilson was speaking in this interview. Bin Laden is one of the "Freedom fighters" about whom Wilson speaks here. Thanks Charlie ... for the torture & death.

[etphonehome2915]

Anti commie paranoia? Did you know that several independent historians have estimated the genocide of the Sovjet Union to about 30-62 million people? An estimate of the (total number of people killed by communism) is about 100 mio people killed. Read: The Black Book of Communism and visit: globalmuseumoncommunism org/ and read the data from professor R.J. Rummel. Don't say that it is all commie paranoia when you read about the casualties.. Ignorance is bliss right?

[bapyou]

@etphonehome2915 Fuck you, you scumbag right-wing ass-scum. Ignorance is bliss to a fucking capitalist scum when you consider the milliions that capitalism has murdered over the centuries. There's no fucking comparison, fucking scum.

I loathe everything right-wing with every molecule of being. You scum are fucking scum. You will be gotten rid of. And the people will rule the Earth. Fucking scum.

You fucking loathsome scum. I'd kill you and sleep well after.

[etphonehome2915]

I hate communism because that system has killed more people than all man made wars combined since waterloo (around 30,000,000 direct battle deaths). Read about the Gulag and the purge of the thirties in the Sovjet Union. Millions died. Now who created the gulag: Lenin. They are all thugs. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with US foreign policy in general. It is too aggressive and often based on lies and CIA nonsense. I don't support colonialism or a capitalist market without some regulations.

[bapyou]

@etphonehome2915

No real leftist supports Stalin or the gulags. Emma Goldman criticized the October Revolution immediately after it occurred. She, along with Rosa Luxembourg and the Spanish anarchists in Catalonia, are the true heroes of freedom.

The numbers thrown around about deaths "attributable to communism" all come from western pro-capitalist sources, which are all bald propaganda. They never mention the millions who have died as a result of capitalism. Look at U.S. health care.

[etphonehome2915]

I don't support colonialism which has a total death toll of about 50.000.000. And yes western countries have killed millions, but there is a difference between casualties of war (combatants) and civilian casualties. Most of the people killed in the Sovjet Union and in China (Mao) were civilians.

[bapyou]

@etphonehome2915

"I don't support colonialism"

What you think about it doesn't matter. Thanks to people such as the great Ho Chi Minh, colonialism in Indochina (at least) has been eradicated. No thanks to the United States, which supported France's every step to reestablish colonial rule in Vietnam.

"there is a difference between casualties of war & civilian casualties"

Sure there is! D'ya think the US gives a fuck about it? (Dresden, Hiroshima, Vietnam, Iraq, etc.)

[etphonehome2915]

I would never support a communist regime no matter what. The only way is democracy. But neither do I support most wars including the Vietnam war. And I agree with you that US must stop their aggressive foreign policy.

[bapyou]

@etphonehome2915

"I would never support a communist regime no matter what. The only way is democracy."

In 1973 a CIA-fomented, CIA-backed coup overthrew the democratically elected government of Chile headed by Salvador Allende, a socialist. Whom you would or would not "support" is irrelevant. Salvador Allende was elected democratically. The PEOPLE OF CHILE decided Salvador Allende should lead their country, not you.

In light of events in Chile 1973, your statement contradicts itself.

[etphonehome2915]

As I said: "I would never support a communist regime no matter what. The only way is democracy." If the government is based on democracy then, thats their choice, and I also said: But neither do I support most wars ... However, if the state is a dictator regime like that of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, North Korea, I would fight it with every atom in my body. Besides I also said that I don't support US foreign policy because it is based on CIA shit. I don't see any contradiction

[grnbaypack4]

your also ABSOLUTELY right things do need to change fast. we have had to many shit trucks running our country for entirely too long. thats everyone from town mayors to congress, president and judiciary. TAKE IT BACK, im not talking about the tea party either. those guys have their own agenda and im still not sure if they have my best interest at heart either. prolly not any different than the repubs or dems. they only wanna fuck the working man, give handouts for lazyness and keep the rich rich.

[grnbaypack4]

@bapyou if you think dropping the atom bomb on hiroshima was wrong then you an idiot. i had great uncles that were part of the invasion force and didn't have to go b/c they dropped the bomb. and if im not mistaken the Brits are responsible for the firebombing of dresden not the ammis. get your facts straight before you run your moouth about the greatest country in the world hahahahahahahaha

[bapyou]

@grnbaypack4

"i had great uncles that were part of the invasion force and didn't have to go b/c they dropped the bomb."

My father was part of the invasion force on a destroyer cruising across the Pacific in August 1945 when the bomb was dropped. What do personal anecdotes have to do with political/military decisions? Enlisted men take orders, they don't give them.

"the Brits are responsible for the firebombing of dresden"

It was a joint effort, dope. Get YOUR facts straight.

[grnbaypack4]

@bapyou the loss of life would have been greater had we invaded, its simple, the bomb was the only alternative. we didn't start that war, so wouldn't it be safe to assume they(our troops) were just as innocent. i mean they couldn't just hand over our country like the french did. in regards to dresden, the USAAF participated in precision daylight raids while the britsh indiscriminately bombed cities at night. the bombs then were inaccurate, stress was high, planning poor. its war,shit happens.

[bapyou]

@grnbaypack4

"the loss of life would have been greater had we invaded" I assume you mean Japan?

Greater for whom? The Japanese had already endured the massive fire-boming campaign that had brought them to their knees. Many historians call the Hiroshima as the first salvo of the Cold War. It was uneccessary. Tojo was ready ot surrender.

Also, quit reading Wikipedia. It's for people who just want to make quick points on a godddamned video comments section.

[grnbaypack4]

@bapyou first off whats wikipedia? im a goddamn history major. its war you fight it to win, if you call the dogs off to early you could prolong the affair. they started an imperialist war with china, USA, etc..the axis powers.., and you have pity on them when we pound them for it. as for the invasion of japan, they were arming school children with spears to defend each block you can only imagine the carnage. it wasn't over till tojo said "i quit". go read the battle plan for the invasion bud.

[bapyou]

@grnbaypack4

"you have pity on them when we pound them for (the imperialist war they started)."

It's not pity.

Look: You're just a fucking asshole kid ... with your moronic comments about "the greatest country in the world." Listen to yourself.

You fucking kids are all dopes. I fear for the future you morons will bring into being after I leave this Earth.

IDIOT FUCKS!

You need to be slapped. You're a stupid fucking cheerleader for American imperialism. Stupid fucking dope.

[grnbaypack4]

@bapyou and your just a has been hippie with a lost cause, looking for a new one. that greatest country comment was me being a smart ass to a bitch ass liberal who doesn't know shit. your on here crying about what we did to the japs, guess you forgot about what they did to the chinese. look i feel bad too about little kids being maimed or killed, but what future do they have when the extremists in control? poppy pushers? terrorists? whores? they throw acid in womens face who go to school. fuckem

[grnbaypack4]

@bapyou and as for me needing to be slapped..... ill bet youll say that on here but your prolly the last person do to any slapping in real life. go read some real books by real historians instead of the liberal revisionist garbage you apparently have been reading....start with VENONA and COMRADE J. both good books. ill come up with more. i think your the dope, dirty hippie, what 26 yr old do you know who has a personal collection of over 500 books(and counting) and has read nearly all of them? 0

[etphonehome2915]

According to R. J. Rummel who has estimated the deaths caused by USA (20th century): The United States probably murdered (democide) about 583.000 - 1.641.000 people in all conflicts of the 20th century.

[bapyou]

@etphonehome2915

"about 583.000 - 1.641.000 people"

A number of sources put the region-wide deaths due to the illegal invasion of Vietnam alone somewhere between 3-4 million (Vietnam; Cambodia; Laos).

If you're going to demonize an ideology for its history of murder, start with Christianity. During the Crusades it also killed many 1000s.

Don't know Rummel. Add in the number of deaths attributable to US health care, for which many Americans lack the money. I'm one.

[etphonehome2915]

The Vietnam war is mixed in with 5 wars spanning 43 years (the Indochina War, Vietnam War, Cambodian War, subsequent guerrilla war in Cambodia, guerrilla war in Laos, and Sino-Vietnamese War).Through all this close to 3.800.000 Vietnamese lost their lives from political violence. Im not talking about thousands when I demonize communism, but millions and millions killed. Yes US killed (high) probably 1.8 mio in cold blod (not combatants) in 20th century, and that is a dissaster.

[etphonehome2915]

But that is nothing compared to the genocide committed by communist regimes:

Chinese communism (total) likely killed (1928-1987), 76.000.000.

Sovjet Union from 1917-1987 28.000.000 (low) - 61.000.000 (mid) killed.

Christian crusades: 1095-1272, 1000.000 people killed.

Yes US health care sucks, but Im sure some day that will change.

[grnbaypack4]

its interesting how you throw the term murdered around. personally i think if your allied with a group of people who fly planes into buildings, killing innocents, and then we come and kill you its called justice or vengance not murder. bad guys deserve death, you people need to stop making them into victims all the time. sometimes war is absolutely neccesary and you cant make concessions at the negotiating table w/o compromising your stance(ieWWII). we stand up for ourselves an don't bend over.

[bapyou]

@grnbaypack4

"personally i think if your allied with a group of people who fly planes into buildings, killing innocents, and then we come and kill you its called justice or vengance not murder."

I have no problem with actions against criminals.

But what did the mass of Afghans do to America? Afghans had lived under the brutal Taliban, whose members were encouraged by the US when they fought the Soviets, for 10 years. Thousands of Afghans have been killed in this stupid meaningless war.

[grnbaypack4]

@bapyou CORRECTION! the mujahideen that became the taliban were the ones supported by saudis and packistan. they were the most fanatical of the extremist and therefore engaged the soviets more often. they were given the most weapons. they used them to assume control of the country.the US supported the moderate elements, like al maousad. our only mistake was not staying involved after the soviets left. we are freeing them from the taliban right now. its necessary to be there.. what about binLaden

[hectorbolshevik]

@grnbaypack4: That is not true. The U.S favorite of the Mujahideen was Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, who was if not the most one of the most fanatical. Charlie Wilson here loved him to death. Even the "moderates" like Massoud were fanatics, butchering 700+ Hazara civilians in Kabul. Massoud himself even admitted that that his more extreme rivals like Hekmatyar got the lions share of U.S weapons on the CNN production of the Cold War. Afghans got nothing good from U.S "freedom" from 1992 to the present.

[michalgreenalien]

@hectorbolshevik First the US helped them to get rid of communists, now they're helping them get rid of fanatics you yourself denounce, so I would think Afghan people benefit from US assistance quite a bit.

[hectorbolshevik]

@michalgreenalien: Those "fanatics" are the same "freedom fighters" the U.S created, who ended up turning Afghanistan into one of the worst disasters in modern history. All the Afghan people got from the USA was further decades of endless war perpetrated by their "freedom fighters", who are now beating the their teacher.

[grnbaypack4]

@hectorbolshevik the only cia and seals actively operating in afghanistan to assist the mujahideen assisted the ones affiliated with Massoud. im sure Hekmatyar did get the most weapons, as i stated, he was more fanatical so the intelligence services of pakistan and saudi arabia dished him more killing tools. and i guess it depends on whos definition of moderate were using. i would agree that the "moderates" were only slightly less fanatical than the fighters termed as "fanatical".

[hectorbolshevik]

@grnbaypack4: Yes, I know they assisted Massoud a great deal. But Hekmatyar was the CIA's favorite. Remember it was the CIA who put together Saudi and Pakistani aid to the Mujahideen.

[etphonehome2915]

I have never defended Islamic radicals. I understand your point, but US foreign policy in Saudi Arabia, Israel etc. has caused so much shit in the middle east that it blows my mind. Stand up for justice. CIA is the worst government agency ever. So many lies, it's fucked up. Clean up by not supporting shitty governments like Saudi Arabia, Saddam Hussein and others. And don't lie about weapons of mass destruction to trick allies into a war like that. I love US but things need to CHANGE fast

[grnbaypack4]

@etphonehome2915 i agree US foreign policy in the middle east has done damage to our credibility, influence, etc and makes us look like the bad guys even though were suppossed to be helping. however i have to defend CIA somewhat, i think donnie rumsfeld and dickhead cheney are more to blame for the false WMD intel. CIA has alot of problems, mainly telling the pres what he wants to hear, not what he needs to hear. many patriotic honest americans work for CIA. also the leadership in CIA is weak.

[grnbaypack4]

@etphonehome2915 CIA does the presidents bidding. it has been paralyzed also by idiotic laws and misused by congress and the pres. like killing castro, kennedy's wanted it, CIA followed orders. the motives were wrong. and like not using sex or blackmail to obtain intel, a source in a compromising position may be more willing to divulge info if your going to tell the world he likes little boys. ho-bama made a mistake in not filling the role of director by mike vickers, look him up, hes the man.

[PNACATTACKdotCOM]

Charles Wilson - great upload.

I saw Movie related to that and I also saw one female

documentary maker telling with others about misinformation/disinformation they founded from MOVIE..

[CazK88]

@PNACATTACKdotCOM

What do you mean misinformation/disinformation from the movie? Check out my upload:

watch?v=n461ja8M_7k

[PNACATTACKdotCOM]

@CazK88 YES! Charlie Wilson's War

"Check out my upload:" - Sorry can't watch it... I got message:

"This video contains content from NBC Universal, who has blocked it on copyright grounds. "