My suggestion to you would be to read up about Opus Dei. Start with the ODAN website. They have many links to former members' stories/testimonies, and documents/books written by independent journalists. These will confirm what I have been saying.
Their 'official membership' of 90K is a false front for the nearly 1 million secular Cooperators,including Kissinger & GHW Bush...
@19lfm12, btw. the IRA is not a fascist group, its a paramilitary organisation trying to get rid of imperial rule in their own country. Their labelled as terrorists, but so were the americans when they fought the brits in their war of independence. I invite you formally to come to ireland, stay in my gaf for as long as you need, and i wi introduce you to some IRA boys. Try that fascist bullshit on them and se how long u last, after they recover from gut lauging in your ignorant face.
@gingerjuice123 The IRA has long been deemed a fascist/terrorist group by responsible govts., NGOs, & educated observers.
Your rhetoric is not a coherent response. I know who & what is truly in back of the IRA - its not just drunked bar owners in the US. That is the tip of the iceberg. Much of their funding & arming comes from literal Fascist/Opus Dei linked sources.
Perhaps an objective look at history is in order....
@19lfm12 You don't live here, you're not from here, you may have visited once or twice, but nobody spoke Latin to u..why? coz NOBODY USES IT. We have a hard enough time trying to retain Irish, so why would we bother trying to keep a language that SERVES NO PURPOSE?! Seriously man, answer these questions first and foremost, with FACT, not opinion!
@gingerjuice123 Anyone in a Western nation with secondary schooling has at least some knowledge of Latin, traditionally. If you were an altar boy, you had to learn some. In school it was key to understanding the Romance languages; often taught first...before learning German, Spanish, Italian, et. al. Law & Medicine students use it, as do those in the Sciences. We are not referring to fluency, but use of words, phrases & at least some peripheral knowledge.
@19lfm12 Futhermore, any catholic connection to the IRA is obvious to explain. Most unionists are protestant, most nationalists are catholic, therefore everyone associates the IRA with the catholic side. The fact is its not about religion for the IRA, its about getting rid of the remaining brit forces in the north. My family were involved with the IRA for decades, I know what I'm talking about...you're a foreigner, so how do u know what's true and what's not?
@gingerjuice123 "....you're a foreigner, so how do u know what's true and what's not?"
1) by observation & objectivity
2) by contact with Irish persons who are/have been members or related to/friends of
3) knowing persons who raised funds for it
4) knowledge of how it has been armed & funded - through known Fascist/terrorist/Opus Dei channels. This is not exactly a secret anymore......its rather easy to figure out.
@19lfm12 I'm guessing you're either american or english with some retarded 'Lucky Charms' notion of my country! Irish and English are the only two we speak, french 2nd, german 3rd, spanish 4th, Italian 5th. Latin is taught to so few students that Polish, Czech and Russian are more dominant. I suppose we're therefore secretly communist too, eh?! Nobody uses Latin here, coz nobody speaks it as a domestic language, here or abroad. Go check ur data and stop talking thru your balloon knot!
Aw jesus tapdancing christ. Old people in ireland speak english and irish. NOOOOOBOODDDYY SPEAKSS LAAAATIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You haven't a fucking clue what you're talking about!!!!!!!! Latin??!!! Please!
@gingerjuice123 1) Most older folks & more then a few younger ones would have studied some Latin in school
2) Today, anyone with a pc can find the definition of the phrase...
3) Perhaps you have never heard of some obscure entity called the....IRA.
*dramatic pause*
Anytime we have a Fascist terrorist group - especially a Catholic one - the 'finger' points directly to Opus Dei. The 'cause' is irrelevant, even if the pretext has some moralistic justification.
@19lfm12 Man, u are truly a fucking idiot, less than a percent of irish people speak Latin, they haven't taught latin in irish schools for over 60 years as a compulsory subject...FACT. The IRA was not formed as some catholic group you moron, it set up to wage a guerilla war against the british occupation.....WITH NO RELIGIOUS CHARTER OR AGENDA. Perhaps you never heard of an obscure publication kown as a history book? I live here, u don't, so stop talking about what you dont know...u twat
@gingerjuice123 I happen to be familiar with several other languages beside English. Some via formal study; others I picked up from reading or learning bits from their native speakers. I also know Latin. Not from formal study; I learned it on my own. HOW? Easy...if you know Romance languages you will see the VERY common threads of Latin & understand it. Enough to grasp words/phrases.
It is used extensively in Law, Music, and Science...topics I am quite familiar with......professionally.
@19lfm12 What the fuck are you babbling on about you fucking idiot? This video is about the crimes of Vatican officials and other officials within the Catholic Church against innocent kids. What the fuck do I care whether you know Latin? Are you fucking insane? Get the fuck off this page if all you can do is talk about yourself you fucking idiot.
@deecee10000 The comment you reference was not directed to you; & was an explanation for gingerjiuce of my academic/professional background in the matters at hand & my 'qualification' to make such assertions.
I was obviously NOT the one who derailed the thread topic....actually, it was YOU. As YOU chose to first pretend to agree with me; then lash out in rage against true Christian ethos, beliefs, teaching, et. al.
@gingerjuice123 If you had any Coherence, you would realize that you have only proved my point:
"IRA was set up to wage guerilla war..."...the classic definition of a terrorist group. Composed exclusively of Catholics, yet never an 'official' church entity. Operating in the shadows of the 'parallel church' which is OD. All funding came from Catholic sources. It always enjoyed tacit approval from Bishops, never officially. Hence: Plasuible Deniability'.
@19lfm12 How many times has gingerjuice told you fo fuck off? Keep posting up nonsense and I will have you banned you fucking idiot. I don't normally believe in censorship, even if we have to endure idiots like Fred Phelps, but if you insist on posting your freaked out Opus Dei conspiracy crap instead of commenting on the Vatican letter, I might as well just ban your silly ass. Are you capable of posting a comment that doesn't include "Opus Dei" or how intelligent you believe yourself to be?
@19lfm12 Also, seeing as Latin vanished in ireland back in ninteen prohibition, and PC's only came out in irish homes about 15 years ago, do u honestly think anyone is going to crash course latin online when there are plenty of other languages to learn that are still IN USE?! I fucking dare you to come to ireland and lecture any IRA member over the origins of their organisation! Really, I know a few. Question...have u ever been to ireland? u bring a latin dictionary with u? No? Didn't think so!
assure me all u want, i fucking live here man, u dont!!! get it! i have first hand experience every day! nobody knows opus dei and the church is dying out.....fact. please fuck off with ur responses, seriously, u can try and try all u want, but opus dei are unheard of and all this grooming.....bollox! after all these sex scandals, people here are keeping their kids on a short leash. Ur wrong, stop replying to my gmail...thank you, but no thanks!
@SyndicalistTimes, who asked you?! He proved nothing except his arrogance, im not a christian either, u A.D.D ridden muppet, if u bothered to read the text. Come back to me when uve got it right.
@19lfm; and who the fuck mentioned Dan Brown? who the fuck mentioned whipping themselves? not I my shite talkng friend. The point is, UR not a member...therefore U DONT KNOW what opus dei are up to, U ARE an outsider and you dont know FOR SURE whats going on with them. These are all true. Ur a speculator with NO INSIGHT OR FIRST HAND PROOF. Apart from the european comment, Dan Brown and self whipping, ur fucked as regards having a leg to stand on. Enjoy grovelling for salvation....u fucking mong
@SyndicalistTimes It would be very easy to lash out, cursing this person for their ignorance. But that would be too easy.
As you know,from my personal & professional experience I have seen things with my own eyes that would turn you black......
Those who doubt what I say should begin by looking at the ODAN website & the testimonies of former OD members therein. And reading certain books which expose & delineate the provable facts I have presented.
@gingerjuice123 As one who has had extensive professional contact with clerics & administrators of more then one major US Archdiocese,I know whereof I speak as I have been privy to information & a perspective few lay persons have had. This includes personal contact with certain well known Opus Dei personas.
There are dozens of written testimonies of former members of OD + hundreds of pages of investigative journalism confirming what I have said.
@19lfm; AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA! You complete twathead, I am from Europe, I'm Irish u dickpump! Does the username 'gingerjuice123' not ring any bells? couldn't put two and two together on that one eh? Oh sweet Christ in heaven that doesn't exist for all we actually know, you have failed epically here mon frair.....adieu, as we say :)
@gingerjuice123 If you are Irish - & have any lucidity - then you should know that the sorry state of your culture/society is the fault of the Church. Why? Your culture, sadly, is deeply rooted in abuse....physical, sexual, emotional, psychological. And hierachial elitism. It is SO deeply engrained that few Irish can comprehend it, as detached objectivity is nearly impossible.
Many Irish no longer go to church - but the wounds run VERY deep in the people.
@19lfm12 , yeah thanks to the church! Not Opus Dei. The only sexual, physical and emotional abuse brought to this island was throught the catholic church. You comment on ireland like you know what your talking about, but you're not even from here! Therefore any opinion you have is just that...opinion...not fact. Notice the way everyone here disagrees with you? Go back to bed
@gingerjuice123 There are many of Opus Dei in Ireland now; aside from a handful of genuinely pious souls, the majority still going to mass are of them.
One need not live in Ireland to understand it or the sad state of its ppl. An understanding of sociology, history, psychology & cognizance of the effects of centuries of clerical sex abuse help to pull things into focus.
Those who are abusive to others are often acting out the abuse they experienced....alcoholism plays a role too.
@19lfm12 Most church goers in Ireland are Opus Dei?!!! You are clearly talking out ur arse! Most church goers in ireland have never heard of them!!!! Where in the blue fuck do you get ur info?!!!! I'm done with u man, dont bother replying, im not interested in a youtube debate with a lunatic
@gingerjuice123 The same applies in the US. A mere handful of those still going to mass are truly devout persons, not in any 'group'. BUT the majority who go to church are part of OD or the several related groups:
Legion of Christ/Regnum Christi, Communion & Liberation, Neo-Catechumenals, Focolare, et.al., and the many seemingly unrelated sub groups of 'feeders', like certain Marian or other devotional groups. Many do not realize what they are joining.....
@19lfm12 I told u not to reply to me, im getting tired of my gmail inbox being topped up with your shit talk. Opus Dei is practically non-existent in ireland, ok! nobody fucking knows them i ireland like u make out. Church goers are the older generation, and believe me, they're not going to latch onto a group with a name they don't even understand. Opus Dei came here in the ninties, church goers have been on a steady decline since the eighties....go figure
@gingerjuice123 I assure you: OD has been in Ireland a LOT longer then that. Some of those 'older ppl' are in it, or the various ancillary groups I mentioned. They recruit HEAVILY with kids, signing up those as young as 14.
As I said, duplicity is their prime mode. Many being groomed for OD have their members in their social circle. They target the intelligent & middle class or above. Other groups (Charismatics) tend to groom lower classes.
@gingerjuice123 For example, in the US such 'feeder' groups would include:
Knights of Columbus, Ancient Order of Hibernians, Legion of Mary, Secular Franciscans, & other 'apostolates' extant nationally. Anyone involved with World Youth Day is (ultimately) involved with OD, as they run it. Where do you think ALL those hordes come from? Or the attendees at Papal Audiences?
These things thrive on ignorance & innocence, hooking those who may be sincere - but clueless.
@19lfm12 I fucking told u already, ur tarring everyone with ur american brush. These orders u mention are hugely unknown in ireland. Old people go to church these days, and they have no fucking clue about these orders! Take it from me man, i live here, what happens in the US happens in the US. Irish church goers are not in the Opus fucking Dei or would even know who they are! They go o sunday for 40 min and thats it....nothing more! seriously, ur talking through ur ass my friend!
@19lfm12 seriously man, my fucking mum is a church goer, she has no idea who or where these organisation are! Opus dei are unheard of here.....period. I dont care how powerful they are in america, irish people are very suspicious of other or new religious bodies. Really man, ur not from here so quit talking about ireland like u know anything about its people or the devoted sheep that attend church, ur simply speculating! wouldnt be the first time either
@gingerjuice123 What I said applies to Europe: basically nobody goes to church, except those linked with these groups. Yes, there are exceptions, but very few. Hint: older ppl would know Latin, & the meaning of the phrase. The more 'obedient' one is the less one would question the existence of OD, even if they never joined it or any group. They would see it as 'good'.
19lfm, If you want to do something good for humanity, write to your congress person / people and ask them why they aren't speaking out on the injustices going on in some countries in Africa where ignorant christian missionaries have sown their evil seeds of hatred, ignorance and injustice to persecute gay men for being who they are. Thanks to American Evangelical missionaries in Africa, especially in the 1990s, some African governments now believe that they should be killing gay men.
@deecee10000 The reality of that African scenario, is that Opus Dei is in this up to their necks. The direct & literal link of The Family/C Street House with the anti-gay agenda there has been proven. That group is connected with OD; in the same way the Heritage Foundation, Focus on the Family, & the radical Pro-Lifers are....all tied to OD.
When you are looking for an invisible man in the snow, you seek his footprints.
that's just a daft suggestion. We all KNOW why the congress aren't speaking out about injustice. It's up to you and I, the working people, to stand up and speak against injustice.
@SyndicalistTimes I don't usually give much thought to conspiracy theories, however "The Family" in DC has been in the news, as have US Evangelicals seeding their hatred of gays in African countries. And you're correct; human rights begin and take root with individuals & regular citizens. What worries me is the abuse of power by the leadership in the Catholic Church and how much they still hold over their followers' thoughts. They are still led to believe that following blindly is virtuous.
@19lfm; ive seen ur profile page, if u disagree with the catholic church then why call urself catholic, why not call urself just christian instead? (even though christian teachings are ultimately similar to almost all of the religions...dont kill, dont steal, dont lie bla bla blaa) why do u give the church credibility by associating with them at all? grow some balls and break away from them, grow some hair on those balls and abandon the whole lot....we'll be waitin on the evolutionary turnpike:)
@gingerjuice123 1) there is a big difference between the Catholic Faith (what the Apostles& their early successors lived) & the Vatican. The two are not identical; & the latter does not believe in the former
2) The 'evolution' you speak of is not going to happen. There is no Time left. And, sadly for you, you do not realize what it going on even mundanely, as the 'news' in the US is grossly controlled. Ppl are somewhat more aware of reality in Europe & elsewhere....
Opus Dei, Opus Dei. You talk about fact yet u blather about opus dei. Neither u nor anyone else on this page has access to opus dei, therefore ur speculating from an outsider point of view, therefore u know nothing for sure, thereofre shut the fuck up and fuck off
@gingerjuice123 Now if you are quite through running your potty mouth......
I do not care if you wish to remain Blind to reality & ignore truth. You are not willing to understand what Opus Dei it: it is NOT what Dan Brown paints! That is intentionally planted lie. The 'pious ones' who whip themselves are a mere fraction of their membership. A front - for public consumption.
Those taken in by such also believe that High School Musical was good.......
@deecee10000 (cont.) Anytime we speak of the Neocons & the Religious Right - of any groups, think tanks, PACs, etc. connected to this, we are speaking of the spawn of OD.
...like your beloved Tea Party. Which trades on selfishness, ignorance & greed, & transforms it into a political agenda wherein anyone not on board with their agenda is 'the enemy'.
Perhaps you should look into the Fascist take-overs in Spain, Germany, Italy....Latin America.....
To clarify: what I stated is deadly serious...they are playing for keeps. It will be the Inquisition on steroids. Soon.
Now you do not have to believe this & are free to scoff. But be assured that this will be manifested by Rome. Many will fall for this deception; some will not. Fear & hunger are strong motivators. But you have been warned....
@19lfm12 Mmmmkaaaay. And you know this to be true because. . .? Wait! Don't tell me! You read it in the bible. The same bible that taught us about THE "original" sin in a "garden of eden" paradise that never was also has the answer on how an All-Knowing Jesus Man-God is going to come back to save the planet (again) from the pope. M'thinks the pope and his child molesting bishops are already doing a great job at destroying whats left of that overgrown dinosaur, no Jesus Superman required.
@deecee10000 As previously stated - you have been given fair warning. You choose not to heed? Your free choice........
More could readily be explained,including factual evidence. But your mind is closed & you would not believe even if one would rise from the dead before you to tell you this.
Over 50 Million perished in WWII; the direct result of the Vatican's disobedience to a very simple request from God. How much worse now...........? Watch.
19lfm12 Your metaphysical / physical response to my questions do not work. Before you continue defending your "bible", can you answer some of my questions honestly? Or are you too lazy to do the research? Perhaps you're too stupid. Maybe you're afraid. Yes we know Catholic Church leaders are corrupt and deserve imprisonment. Most people don't actually care. Why are you still arguing in defense of a book and religion based on a lie?
@deecee10000 You need to be able to delineate between the true core of the 'catholic faith' & the Vatican organization. The two are NOT one & the same! If you cannot, I can go no further..... Using your 'logic', Socrates must be discarded as a fictional character & the words attributed to him as BS.....as none of his writing is extant, & he is only known via 2nd & 3rd hand sources.
@deecee10000 Ratz - who is not a legitimate pope in ANY sense of the word - + Opus Dei (whose pious facade is both false & a mere fraction of its true numbers....) will present a False Christ to the world. Attempt to compel all to worship 'it'.
So great will be the deception that many will fall for it; even some Atheists.....
@19lfm12 I don't follow any organized religion. I would much rather get my info on the laws of the universe from professionals, scientists who mostly use non-biased methods, calculations and non-biased observation.
What you fail to grasp in your Blindness is that those whom you are placing your trust in....are members/Collaborators of, and/or employees of entities owned or controlled by Opus Dei.
@19lfm12 : In your last post you waffle on about completely irrelevant info that has nothing to do with this issue. Your religion is involved in banking, hoarding and rape. It's actually funny watching u trying to approach this issue with candour and intelligent debate! Your rotting church and its religion is dying out my friend, besides, all ur talk is speculation, you know none of what you speak of as actual fact. therefore shut the fuck up and deal with fact, not faith, u mong!
@gingerjuice123 The deeds of Opus Dei which you cite - which literally owns the Vatican & controls the Vatican Bank (thus every Diocese on earth...) has absolutely NOTHING to do with what Christ taught, nor with the true core of the 'catholic faith'.
That core: Sermon on the Mount & Beatitudes. Comprehend & live these & one is of God - even if you do not believe in Him...
Neither Opus Dei nor the Vatican which is its puppet believe nor live thus. Ergo....
@gingerjuice123 For example, I & many others were taught in grade school that the principles & mechanics of modern banking & credit were 'invented by the Jews' during the Middle Ages.
False. Such were actually the invention of the Knights Templar, of which there is more then adequate proof. The predecessors of Opus Dei...
Deflection. Blame Shifting via use of the Great Lie principle. Scapegoating others & making millions believe the lie.....
@19lfm12 : Perhaps i need to read? I have read it, word for word, and there is no mention of male prostitutes. It simply says one man lying with another man...period. Your interpretation is irrelevant! 'If a man lies with another man'...not... 'if a male prozzy lies with another male prozzy'. You are simply interpreting it as you see fit. There is no back story here, is cut and dry obvious. Perhaps you need to answer the accusations i made against you....how can you possibly defend these people?
@gingerjuice123 In re the intergenerational vilification of gays by the Church - this is Deflection.
In the 11th cent. St. Peter Damien, a Vatican Cardinal, wrote the Book of Gomorrah. It details the horrific immorality, then long standing among clerics. Including rape or men, women & kids, ritualized sex abuse, bestiality, etc. Thus the Vatican KNEW of abuse for 1000 years
...while Blame-Shifting for centuries to 'those horrid gays'.....get the idea now?
@19lfm12 If you are unable to grasp the significance of what I've asked previously, referring to evolution, "original sin", the time this world and universe have existed, the BILLIONS of years life has existed on this planet most of it LONG before human were present, so forth, I suggest you do some SERIOUSLY DEEP thinking about what it all means for a religion like Christianity. . . or are you still in denial.
@deecee10000 Please learn how to read......I already made it quite clear that I believe Evolution to be valid scientific theory; & that the known universe may well be Billions of years old. But there is no conclusive proof of its exact age; this is factual!
Nobody is demanding that you believe in God, nor in original sin. I was merely trying to explain it simply.
If one reads the Gospel accounts objectively, to whom does God first make known his incarnation as Christ? To the religious leaders? To the 'oh-so-pious' ones?
No.....to filthy, illiterate shepherds- considered by the Jewish ppl as scum...'non-believers'...even considered bestial & gay by some of them.
The 2nd group He led to see the infant were the Magi.....pagan occultists....'non-believers'.
My point: God does not despise Atheists. He despises hypocritical 'believers'.
@19lfm12 Correct. Not one mention of sex or the Jesus in the bible being "tempted" by sex in the New Testament. . .which is really strange considering he was supposedly 33 yrs at death and male and never even masturbated. I think its silly to still have man-made gods. We now have governing bodies that replace theocracies; much more human rights friendly. The Jesus story in the bible is good as a moral lesson, but you see people sacrificing their lives for the good of many in everyday life.
@19lfm12 how can u possibly begin to defend this group of rapists and rape cover up artists, when a letter like this is staring you in the fucking face? How can u possibly come across as well meaning when your congregation has actively covered up the rape of children? How completely fucking stupid are you to even show up on this page and begin a defence case of this, the most heinous of crimes angainst them, the most innocent and vunerable, whilst signing off in christs name? Enjoy hell fucker
@ 19lfm12 actually god does condemn gay people u complete retard! Leviticus 20:13 : "'If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. This translation is the same in all bible versions. You just got owned you brainwashed sycophantic weakling. Commiserations man, your religion and its days are truly fucking numbered
As previously explained, the scant 7 verses in the entire Bible which refer to gay sex acts are NOT a condemnation of gay ppl, nor of gay sex acts (of themselves0.
They are condemnations of Male Prostitution & Concubines; quite prevalant in the ancient world. And still extant in the Vatican & high political circles globally.
Homosexuality is neither mentioned in the Commandments nor did Christ say one word of it. End of story...
@19lfm12 What I'm saying is that knowing what I know, I wouldn't want you to be MY pastor or minister. I would consider you just as big a liar as the pope and his disgusting, criminal bishops. Religions don't work for me, but I do believe in freedom and eradicating ignorance that fuels bigotry in a society. As I've said before, when you start teaching that a book such as the bible was dictated by "god", not only are you lying but you are planting destructive seeds of bigotry.
@deecee10000 Nobody is asking, much less forcing you to believe anything.
Perhaps you should consider that it is organized religion, not God, which is at fault. As they have completely misrepresented Him. Confecting a version of 'God' which serves their selfish ends; using Him as key to the hegemony.
'Opus Dei" actually translates as: "the project of making/building 'God' ".
@19lfm12 I you believe in the judeo-christian "God" or gods, you ultimately come to the conclusion that humans are being punished from birth and that the planet is no longer a "paradise" as a result of human sin. I can't believe that "God" would create this unimaginably enormous universe with its non-paradise properties to punish the offspring of original humans from some other dimension where a "Paradise" exists. Christianity did not take into account what we now know about the universe.
@19lfm12 I also can't believe that any TRULY just "God" would punish innocent babies, animals, and this entire universe for billions of years simply because the first human beings "sinned". The "original sin" idea works if your world is very small and the center of a tiny universe where your planet is all that exists and you believe the world is only a few hundred or thousand years old. Its an outdated creation story, just like the other creation stories before that one.
@deecee10000 In your Blindness what you fail to grasp is that - whether we speak of animals or humans - their days are numbered. In the sense that they are made to live & then die. Thus it becomes irrelevant how long an animal or human lives, or their manners of death (within this context...).
A man can live for 12 years or 90. What counts is that they lived; & what they did with the time alloted to them.
@19lfm12 And you believe I am blind because. . .? What r u talking about? Didn't you read my comment which said "be a good person, reject bigotry, help those in need when you can, so forth. . .? Mmmmkaaayyy, so you believe that the Vatican and one of the Vatican's darling groups, Opus Dei, both who are usually at odds with scientists are now controlling the scientific community? Hey, if that's what you wanna believe by all means. . .go for it.
@deecee10000 If one tries to live as Jesus taught - even if he does not know of Jesus or does not believe in or know God - he is on the right path.
As to OD....they own & control the Vatican, as they have had control of the Vatican Bank for many years now. It controls funds deposited by local Dioceses & makes loans to them. He who controls the purse, owns the store.
@19lfm12 To be honest, the judeo-christian creation story only works if you leave OUT evolution if you think it out. One very obvious question is, why would "God" punish all living things and the universe for 15 or 16 BILLION years before human beings evolved and "originally sinned"? Humans evolved from the animals, not the other way around; certainly not created separately by species all on or around the same time. Its taken billions of years for life to evolve to its present state.
@deecee10000 1) While the development of human life on earth, evolving from lower species, took millions of years, any precise dating of the time span by scientists is largely an educated guess. Science deals largely in Theories, arriving at truth over time.
2) While 'billions' could indeed be correct (& I would tend to agree) one cannot posit such as fact; only theory.
3) Perhaps you should read the 1st chapter of Genesis.....
@19lfm12 Also ask yourself; why would any living thing in a "paradise" have to eat or consume anything else in that "paradise". Of course we need the energy to live, but why would you need to do that in "paradise" if everything is supposedly perfect in "paradise"? Through evolution, we even developed teeth and fluids so we could digest whatever we eat and get the most out of it. Why would we have to do that in a "paradise"? Shouldn't the food have already been perfect for digestion?
@deecee10000 The 'Paradise' was called so as Man dwelt with God (in the spiritual sense). Man was created as a creature with metabolic function; he has to eat. His body is mortal; it will die eventually. The 'soul' or consciousness is eternal. 'Paradise' was an earthly place, not eternal. When man was cast out via disobedience, he no longer 'dwelt with God'.
You are confusing the metaphysical with a physical place/state.
In the final analysis: doctrines, dogmas & denominations are irrelevant. It is what you are & how you live which counts.
It is also interesting to note that Jesus never condemned Atheists/Agnostics/non-believers. Actually He taught that they were capable of great moral virtue.
He condemned the leaders of organized religion & their fanatical groupies.....
Dear bishop- please hide all our pedos and do not report them to authorities or pay off the children- we here in Rome will cover up the money laundering in the Vatican Bank- dont worry we are the richest organization in the world and well get through this thanks to our blind followers- ps The Pope sends his regards and reminds you the next satanic meeting is next saturday at 12.00 midnight at the usual place Kind regards- Cardinal Corrupto Abusio
@salvadory You forgot to note that Cardinal Corrupto Abusio is a member of Opus Dei.......there is a none-too-subtle hint in there, in re all the point you touched upon!
The pope and his bishops should be tried in a court of law. People defending them while having no remorse or shame over the abuse of so many kids should be educated on what is happening within their Catholic Church. I doubt they are getting any truth from their clergy or bishops on what is going on. If the pope wants to use the "devil made me do it" argument in a court of law then so be it, but he and his bishops should most definitely be tried in a civil court.
@deecee10000 Agreed: they should be tried in a civil court! Most Catholics are in complete Denial of the reality of the matter; & their priests/bishops have been feeding them lies, predicated upon their 'loyalty = faith'. Unfortunately such loyalty is NOT to God, nor to what Jesus taught....but to the Vatican itself.
That is the object of veneration for them: the Vatican Administration. Not God. It is a classic 'bait & switch', using Christ as a corporate logo.
@deecee10000 The 'devil made me do it' argument is intrinsically flawed. If you are tempted to evil, & then do it, YOU are responsible for your misdeed. There are no excuses.
And if the devil has power in the Vatican - & I would agree with that assertion - that does NOT serve as an excuse for evil deeds. Or for enabling child rape & torture.
Whether one is a Theist or not, one is responsible for his actions.
@IgorAusDemKeller Looks to me as if, assuming there is a "Creator", we (the evolving life / creation) weren't meant to know what the universe really is or who the "Creator" is. When you consider the unimaginably enormous expanse of the universe and how far everything in the universe is isolated from itself, then consider how it all consumes itself in one way or another. . .well lets just say this isn't a Paradise (by any human being's standard of what a true Paradise should be).
@deecee10000 What you say here is (believe it or not) very close to the truth; man was really NOT intended to 'know everything'. This is true both in the universal sense (all men) & in the particular, as some men are more willing to learn then others.
The more one is detached from his base passions & selfishness, moving toward Altruism (and beyond....), the more prepared he is to comprehend the Creator.
@IgorAusDemKeller (Cont'd) Then again, maybe this a "paradise" for gorillas and human beings arose from mutations gone out of control. Species are always dying off while new ones emerge so it wouldn't be unusual for the human race to die off after a while. There's also the question of a Creator of this known universe and the creator from which life came from (life as we know it on our minuscule portion of the universe).
@deecee10000 Yes...and no. Evolution is the mechanism which the Creator used to create - continually. As an ongoing process. It is inexorably linked with perceptible cycles in nature. Man most certainly did evolve from lower forms of man as well as from the animal kingdom. Despite the ravings of many 'christian' fanatics, Genesis does actually indicate this.
The two manifestations of 'creator' which you are denoting are one & the same.
@19lfm12 Hopefully I'm not offending you too much, and you should not be offended too much since you didn't write the book of Genesis or any of the books in the "Bible", but Christians have used every type of interpretation for stories and passages you can think of to say the Bible is true. In fact, people in this country used to think that owning slaves was okay according to the bible. Genesis, "Noah's ark" and other such stories were probably handed down to the author from other civilizations
@deecee10000 No - you are not offending me:) Neither Genesis nor any other book in the Bible was intended primarily as a history or science text. Though they do allude to such.
There was a 'great flood' in antiquity, as the Genesis account is mirrored by many accounts of ancient civilizations, indicating a global catastrophe. Thus there would have been 'regional Noahs". But the precise details of the 'flood' or w/e are another matter altogether.....
@19lfm12 Cont'd. . . .not a burning bush. Uncannily similar stories about "the flood", a man living in a big fish, a written code of law, and yes even a god-man who was born to a virgin, performed miracles, was crucified then ascended from the dead existed in OTHER places / civilizations before the judeo-christians wrote their books with of some of these stories included. No biggie. I don't care. Its different though when someone tries to force them on you as if "god" had dictated them.
@deecee10000 Indeed- God does not 'force' himself on ppl....men do that in Fanaticism.
The true core of Christ's teaching is: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". He who truly lives this,sincerely without seeking reward is 'christian', even if he never head of Christ. The key to being 'of God' is sincerity & coherence.
Thus many 'non-believers' who live thusly will be 'saved'.
Many 'christians' would call me 'heretic' for this.....yet this is the truth.
Again, you can believe what you want in this country but we are slowly getting away from believing that everything in the judeo-christian bible is "THE Truth". . .and for good reason since the bible is one bigoted f@#$ed up book. We have a government that isn't controlled by the pope or any other fucked up religious organization. We are becoming a more equal rights society. Women, minorities, gays, and others are slowly becoming equals in society as it should be.
@deecee10000 (assuming you refer to the US...) yes, agreed: that is the way things should be. Equality among humans.
I would suggest however that the problem is not the Bible itself, but rather those who have posited themselves as the 'guardians' of it. Who have (intentionally) twisted, mistranslated & edited it for selfish ends. I refer to the Vatican.
For example, in reality, neither gay persons nor gay sex acts are condemned in Scripture.....!
@19lfm12 Actually many things are condemned in the bible including eating shellfish and "A man will not sleep with another man..etc." is pretty straightforward (pardon the pun). If you still need a security blankie, you might consider seeking professional help. I can't pretend to believe in a collection of books that I know are full of falsehoods, bigotry, ignorance and injustices. From my perspective, ignorance by religion isn't bliss; its like a band-aid for an non-healing wound.
@deecee10000 The 'shellfish' issue made sense in the cultural context of the time (i.e. sanitation); but not now.. As to 'man w/another man', the contextual implication is that men would usually marry (a woman). To use another man as a sex toy for adultery is....adultery.
Some assert that Scripture endorses slavery: false. If you work for someone, you are their 'servant'. You have obligations to him; and he to you. It worketh both ways:)
@19lfm12 When Moses and others decided on what Jewish laws should be, I can assure you that he was homophobic as were some of the authors of the New Testament. How you interpret the bible, whether you twist the meaning of some sentences in your mind doesn't change what the authors intended in the first place. I see much of the bible as outdated, barbaric, and ideal for people who want to use "god" as an excuse to hate others. I'm not buying your pro-bible argument.
@deecee10000 Obviously you have not comprehended what I wrote.....
The 7 verses in the entire Bible which refer to gay sex.....are in condemnation of MALE PROSTITUTION.Not of gays or gay sex itself. Which syllable is confusing to you?
Jesus said not one word about gays or gay sex. If you do not believe me, then read all 4 Gospels.....he DID NOT condemn homsexuals.
@deecee10000 Moses was not 'homophobic'; that is ludicrous. Obviously the mechanical purpose of sex is for reproduction. That only works via opposite sex partners. Yet is was also intentionally designed to be pleasurable.
In ancient times as now, men were cheating on their wives with other men. This is wrong, as it is adultery & using another person as a sex toy. The same applies to the use of men as prostitutes/concubines.
If you were to rewrite the bible, would you include the very same wording? Your interpretation would require you to change the original meaning of the anti-gay laws. The problem you run into when you believe that a book was dictated by "God" is that if it actually was (it wasn't) then you are bound to trust that every word in it is true as a believer and you must also believe that anyone who doesn't believe every word of "God" in your bible or follows it is anti-"God".
@19lfm12 Give it up. You are sounding more and more like the right-wing bible thumpers who are always trying to cram their idiotic bible down everyone's throats. It wasn't written by "God" you fucking idiot.
@deecee10000 1) It would seem that you both have a reading comprehension issue & are blinded by your own hatred....
2) I never said 'God wrote the Bible'. He did not. Scirbes, inspired by God, wrote the urtexts. Now...what the Vatican & others have done in terms of self-serving mistranslations & 'editing' is another matter.
3) I have attempted to discuss these issues civilly with you......it is you, nor me, who is ranting & cursing.
@19lfm12 If you use the Jesus in the christian bible as a guide to live your life and you take the core message of "love thy neighbor. . ." without letting religion make you into a bigot then I can see where it would be a positive thing for you in a free, just society. When you start believing that EVERYTHING in the bible is true, then I can plainly see, from firsthand experience, that believers, especially the more hard-core orthodox followers are more likely to be bigots.
@deecee10000 We are agreed in re Fanaticism. At the same time, much depends on what these 'things in the Bible' are. If Scripture is MISused as pretext to racism, bigotry, hatred, homophobia, etc....agreed!
BTW - Jesus used non-believers as positive role models of morality in His teachings. In the Parable of the Good Samaritan. The 1st ppl guided to see him as an infant (shepherds) & the Magi were both considered pagan/non-believer/heathens.....not the 'pious believers'.
@deecee10000 As to the US not being 'controlled by the pope'...not overtly. However, if you look closely at the religious right, it IS being controlled by Opus Dei (directly or indirectly). The details will not fit in this box. But if you know how to play 'connect the dots' you will see the truth of this. All in the universe of the 'neocons' links to them.
Psst...Dan Brown might as well have been paid by OD to write his books. It's easy to defend yourself from bad press...that you wrote:)
@IgorAusDemKeller In short, I don't put my trust in or have blind faith in religions who claim to know "THE truth". I would probably believe what they say if they admitted that they don't know all that much about the universe and a "Creator" . . .but then they would probably lose most of their followers it they did that.
@deecee10000 This is where organized Christianity has failed miserably. It was neither supposed to rule the world, nor to pretend that is has ALL the answers to everything. As mere mortals, the latter is ludicrous.
What is SHOULD have done is to help guide those freely willing to find God. To teach what Christ taught; spiritual truths.
Instead they posited themselves as the all knowing & powerful OZ.....who was really a humbug.
@IgorAusDemKeller Look at the history of the past 1700 years; did God kill all of those ppl, or did evil men claiming to act 'in His Name' do such?
The truth: those of the latter group did it. Not God. Nor satan. God had nothing to do with any of those many atrocities. Nor can his words be twisted to 'pin it' on Him.
Again - if I do wrong; I am responsible for my actions. That is the way it works.
@IgorAusDemKeller A man walks out a 12th story window. Is God punishing him, or has he brought upon himself pain & death by his own stupidity? Breaking the law of gravity is just like breaking any other law God set up: it has a consequence. This can be expressed as an equation in physics.
The 'sin of Sodom' had zero to do with homosexuality. They were engaging in mindless Hedonism & Occultism without any scruples. Thus, the 12 th floor window.....applies.
@IgorAusDemKeller It is precisely such inane 'red herrings' which make it impossible to calmly discuss these matters with some ppl. Because you are not willing to understand.
@19lfm12 Avoiding to answere is not an argument. I would not be asking questions if did not want to understand.
Tell me: Why did god burn all these children?
In your example the situation would look this way, i think: The parents walk out that window, not caring about gods law of gravity, with their children in hands.
The children suffer for the sins of the fathers. Does not seem fair to me.
@IgorAusDemKeller The christian religion doesn't have a viable answer for a question such as that. They still rely on the bible's creation story which tries to say that the reason there is suffering in this world is because "Adam & Eve" committed sin. In their story--- "God" really is a nice guy; this world was a "paradise" when he originally made it, but it "Eve's" sin that made the world is what it is today. Now--- Fossil evidence shows us the planet was never a "paradise" to begin with.
@deecee10000 But as God created them this way, it is obviously HIS fault.
It is a really sad fact, that religious people refuse to answere or start aggressions ("you are not willing to understand"), when they discover a paradoxon in their beliefs. I AM willing to understand, but they just do not have any argument, that could make me belief. They do not even have one to make me WILL believe, everytime one of them tells me how nice their god is, another one tells me, their god will burn me.
@19lfm12 Somehow you've managed to ignore my questions but have continued to write more bs in the process. Do you believe in christianity's "original sin" explanation for why this world is not a "paradise"? If it was a "paradise" before humans came along, why did most of the species that have existed since life began thriving on this planet die off? btw, you overcome gravity to some extent every time you lift something or fly in an airplane.
@deecee10000 Go back & re-read what was said about 'paradise' & original sin....
As to whatever you are trying to say about extinct species....what is your point? There are many reasons for this, including the fact that the have been global natural/climate catastrophes which wiped out certain animals.
Have you ever taken a Philosophy course? Or comparative religions survey course? Seemingly not, or you would be able to understand objectively what you do not believe in.....
@19lfm12 So you expect for me to believe in some fucked up religion when you can't answer the simplest questions I ask you? From your lack of explanation or defense on "original sin" besides "go re-read. . ", I should assume that you don't have an answer to my question. Your religion's 'messiah" depends on the assumption that your bible's creation myth is true. It isn't true. Its dumb explanation of why "God" made this world's creatures live in a world that isn't a paradise is a lie.
19lfm12, I would probably take you more seriously if you were more honest with me. If you don't know the answer to something, you should just be honest and say "I don't know". Now that you've deceitfully manipulated your responses to avoid answering my questions, I have to assume that you are avoiding my questions because you don't have a real answer.
19lfm12, Give it up buddy. You're "messiah" died with the dinosaurs. They had him for lunch, shit him into a hole then covered whatever remained of him with the good earth. He was already dead even before being conceived. The universe, we now know, is infinitely bigger than any man-god, humanly created on this tiny tiny grain of a rock we call Earth. Be a good person, reject bigotry, help those in need when you can and offer your talents and strengths to help build a just society.
@deecee10000 You have clearly demonstrated the utter inability to show respect for the beliefs of others, and to look at something with intellectual detachment & objectivity. Equally obvious that you have never had a liberal arts university education.
I can readily discuss the concepts of Buddhism with a Buddhist with respect & detachment, even though I do not believe in that faith.You should try that sometime with Christianity.....
Very shortly the Vatican & the global power aligned with it fully intend to foist upon the world the False Christ; in a faked 2nd Coming. This will not be the real Jesus of Nazareth, but a demonic fake. They will try to compel all to worship it with food as the leverage. This is no joke. The real Christ will not laud the Vatican, nor torture/imprison those who will not 'believe'.
Speak to me civilly & will try to explain for you.....
@19lfm12 You can pretty much go on about anything you want on this page; I don't believe in censorship. . .unless you get out of hand and start threatening other commenters.
It makes no difference to me what religion anyone is or whether they believe in a god. If following a certain religion makes you a better person in society, especially a free democratic society, a society striving to end bigotry, discrimination, hatred against citizens who are different than you, then by all means enjoy your religion. Unfortunately, I've seen most of the bigotry and hatred in society coming from religions and many of their followers. We as citizens should not put up with it.
@deecee10000 The test of 'loyalty' for Catholics IS to Blindly defend the pope, bishops & abusers, with no remorse or shame, or charity for the abuse victims. Logic is misused & Inverted to justify evil - & has already been used elsewhere to take this document & completely Invert what it says. As if it were somehow morally justifiable.
In His teaching, Christ explicitly condemns bigotry, hatred, elitism & oppression. The Vatican has made a business of these; making 'christians' into Fanatics.
In classical theology, what Ratzinger has done here (which was certainly done in ALL dioceses globally) was identical with the work of satan.
Satan induces man to evil. By temptation & also peer pressure; coercion. Then when the man does evil, he not only induces guilt in the man- but accuses him of the very evil he induced of the man.
...as Ratz did by ordering this letter, then later blaming the Irish bishops for the abuse crisis!
1) You may not report abusers to civil law enforcement
2) If, as a Bishop, you take Canonical action against an abuser priest - suspend him, remove him from office, forbid him to act as a priest, he can take his case to the Vatican - & the Vatican will side WITH THE ABUSER
3) The abuser may then bring the bishop up on Canonical charges & the Vatican will PUNISH the bishop for not enabling the abuser.
@19lfm12 (cont.) 4) the Vatican, and thus the Bishop, holds the 'rights' of an accused priest in higher esteem then those of an abuse victim.
5) Bishops are thus required to keep silent about abuse & to protect the abusers.
Thus a bishop who has enough of a conscience to want to do what is right is placed in a moral double-bind; compelled to silence & de facto complicity. In spite of his personal convictions.
What's the music called?
philosophyjunkie501 6 months ago
@philosophyjunkie501 Air lent (Distressed Innocence) (Incidental Music, Z 577) ----- Purcell
deecee10000 6 months ago
My suggestion to you would be to read up about Opus Dei. Start with the ODAN website. They have many links to former members' stories/testimonies, and documents/books written by independent journalists. These will confirm what I have been saying.
Their 'official membership' of 90K is a false front for the nearly 1 million secular Cooperators,including Kissinger & GHW Bush...
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12, btw. the IRA is not a fascist group, its a paramilitary organisation trying to get rid of imperial rule in their own country. Their labelled as terrorists, but so were the americans when they fought the brits in their war of independence. I invite you formally to come to ireland, stay in my gaf for as long as you need, and i wi introduce you to some IRA boys. Try that fascist bullshit on them and se how long u last, after they recover from gut lauging in your ignorant face.
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 The IRA has long been deemed a fascist/terrorist group by responsible govts., NGOs, & educated observers.
Your rhetoric is not a coherent response. I know who & what is truly in back of the IRA - its not just drunked bar owners in the US. That is the tip of the iceberg. Much of their funding & arming comes from literal Fascist/Opus Dei linked sources.
Perhaps an objective look at history is in order....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 You don't live here, you're not from here, you may have visited once or twice, but nobody spoke Latin to u..why? coz NOBODY USES IT. We have a hard enough time trying to retain Irish, so why would we bother trying to keep a language that SERVES NO PURPOSE?! Seriously man, answer these questions first and foremost, with FACT, not opinion!
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 Anyone in a Western nation with secondary schooling has at least some knowledge of Latin, traditionally. If you were an altar boy, you had to learn some. In school it was key to understanding the Romance languages; often taught first...before learning German, Spanish, Italian, et. al. Law & Medicine students use it, as do those in the Sciences. We are not referring to fluency, but use of words, phrases & at least some peripheral knowledge.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Futhermore, any catholic connection to the IRA is obvious to explain. Most unionists are protestant, most nationalists are catholic, therefore everyone associates the IRA with the catholic side. The fact is its not about religion for the IRA, its about getting rid of the remaining brit forces in the north. My family were involved with the IRA for decades, I know what I'm talking about...you're a foreigner, so how do u know what's true and what's not?
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 "....you're a foreigner, so how do u know what's true and what's not?"
1) by observation & objectivity
2) by contact with Irish persons who are/have been members or related to/friends of
3) knowing persons who raised funds for it
4) knowledge of how it has been armed & funded - through known Fascist/terrorist/Opus Dei channels. This is not exactly a secret anymore......its rather easy to figure out.
Just follow the footprints....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 I'm guessing you're either american or english with some retarded 'Lucky Charms' notion of my country! Irish and English are the only two we speak, french 2nd, german 3rd, spanish 4th, Italian 5th. Latin is taught to so few students that Polish, Czech and Russian are more dominant. I suppose we're therefore secretly communist too, eh?! Nobody uses Latin here, coz nobody speaks it as a domestic language, here or abroad. Go check ur data and stop talking thru your balloon knot!
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
Aw jesus tapdancing christ. Old people in ireland speak english and irish. NOOOOOBOODDDYY SPEAKSS LAAAATIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You haven't a fucking clue what you're talking about!!!!!!!! Latin??!!! Please!
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 1) Most older folks & more then a few younger ones would have studied some Latin in school
2) Today, anyone with a pc can find the definition of the phrase...
3) Perhaps you have never heard of some obscure entity called the....IRA.
*dramatic pause*
Anytime we have a Fascist terrorist group - especially a Catholic one - the 'finger' points directly to Opus Dei. The 'cause' is irrelevant, even if the pretext has some moralistic justification.
Tis true, even if you disbelieve
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Man, u are truly a fucking idiot, less than a percent of irish people speak Latin, they haven't taught latin in irish schools for over 60 years as a compulsory subject...FACT. The IRA was not formed as some catholic group you moron, it set up to wage a guerilla war against the british occupation.....WITH NO RELIGIOUS CHARTER OR AGENDA. Perhaps you never heard of an obscure publication kown as a history book? I live here, u don't, so stop talking about what you dont know...u twat
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 I happen to be familiar with several other languages beside English. Some via formal study; others I picked up from reading or learning bits from their native speakers. I also know Latin. Not from formal study; I learned it on my own. HOW? Easy...if you know Romance languages you will see the VERY common threads of Latin & understand it. Enough to grasp words/phrases.
It is used extensively in Law, Music, and Science...topics I am quite familiar with......professionally.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 What the fuck are you babbling on about you fucking idiot? This video is about the crimes of Vatican officials and other officials within the Catholic Church against innocent kids. What the fuck do I care whether you know Latin? Are you fucking insane? Get the fuck off this page if all you can do is talk about yourself you fucking idiot.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 The comment you reference was not directed to you; & was an explanation for gingerjiuce of my academic/professional background in the matters at hand & my 'qualification' to make such assertions.
I was obviously NOT the one who derailed the thread topic....actually, it was YOU. As YOU chose to first pretend to agree with me; then lash out in rage against true Christian ethos, beliefs, teaching, et. al.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 If you had any Coherence, you would realize that you have only proved my point:
"IRA was set up to wage guerilla war..."...the classic definition of a terrorist group. Composed exclusively of Catholics, yet never an 'official' church entity. Operating in the shadows of the 'parallel church' which is OD. All funding came from Catholic sources. It always enjoyed tacit approval from Bishops, never officially. Hence: Plasuible Deniability'.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 How many times has gingerjuice told you fo fuck off? Keep posting up nonsense and I will have you banned you fucking idiot. I don't normally believe in censorship, even if we have to endure idiots like Fred Phelps, but if you insist on posting your freaked out Opus Dei conspiracy crap instead of commenting on the Vatican letter, I might as well just ban your silly ass. Are you capable of posting a comment that doesn't include "Opus Dei" or how intelligent you believe yourself to be?
deecee10000 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Also, seeing as Latin vanished in ireland back in ninteen prohibition, and PC's only came out in irish homes about 15 years ago, do u honestly think anyone is going to crash course latin online when there are plenty of other languages to learn that are still IN USE?! I fucking dare you to come to ireland and lecture any IRA member over the origins of their organisation! Really, I know a few. Question...have u ever been to ireland? u bring a latin dictionary with u? No? Didn't think so!
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
assure me all u want, i fucking live here man, u dont!!! get it! i have first hand experience every day! nobody knows opus dei and the church is dying out.....fact. please fuck off with ur responses, seriously, u can try and try all u want, but opus dei are unheard of and all this grooming.....bollox! after all these sex scandals, people here are keeping their kids on a short leash. Ur wrong, stop replying to my gmail...thank you, but no thanks!
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@SyndicalistTimes, who asked you?! He proved nothing except his arrogance, im not a christian either, u A.D.D ridden muppet, if u bothered to read the text. Come back to me when uve got it right.
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@19lfm; and who the fuck mentioned Dan Brown? who the fuck mentioned whipping themselves? not I my shite talkng friend. The point is, UR not a member...therefore U DONT KNOW what opus dei are up to, U ARE an outsider and you dont know FOR SURE whats going on with them. These are all true. Ur a speculator with NO INSIGHT OR FIRST HAND PROOF. Apart from the european comment, Dan Brown and self whipping, ur fucked as regards having a leg to stand on. Enjoy grovelling for salvation....u fucking mong
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123
No real 'christian' would speak to someone else like that.
SyndicalistTimes 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123
Why you so angry at a guy who simply pointed out provable facts? You seem like one of those fanatics to me.
SyndicalistTimes 1 year ago
@SyndicalistTimes It would be very easy to lash out, cursing this person for their ignorance. But that would be too easy.
As you know,from my personal & professional experience I have seen things with my own eyes that would turn you black......
Those who doubt what I say should begin by looking at the ODAN website & the testimonies of former OD members therein. And reading certain books which expose & delineate the provable facts I have presented.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 As one who has had extensive professional contact with clerics & administrators of more then one major US Archdiocese,I know whereof I speak as I have been privy to information & a perspective few lay persons have had. This includes personal contact with certain well known Opus Dei personas.
There are dozens of written testimonies of former members of OD + hundreds of pages of investigative journalism confirming what I have said.
19lfm12 1 year ago
Comment removed
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@19lfm; AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA! You complete twathead, I am from Europe, I'm Irish u dickpump! Does the username 'gingerjuice123' not ring any bells? couldn't put two and two together on that one eh? Oh sweet Christ in heaven that doesn't exist for all we actually know, you have failed epically here mon frair.....adieu, as we say :)
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 If you are Irish - & have any lucidity - then you should know that the sorry state of your culture/society is the fault of the Church. Why? Your culture, sadly, is deeply rooted in abuse....physical, sexual, emotional, psychological. And hierachial elitism. It is SO deeply engrained that few Irish can comprehend it, as detached objectivity is nearly impossible.
Many Irish no longer go to church - but the wounds run VERY deep in the people.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 , yeah thanks to the church! Not Opus Dei. The only sexual, physical and emotional abuse brought to this island was throught the catholic church. You comment on ireland like you know what your talking about, but you're not even from here! Therefore any opinion you have is just that...opinion...not fact. Notice the way everyone here disagrees with you? Go back to bed
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 There are many of Opus Dei in Ireland now; aside from a handful of genuinely pious souls, the majority still going to mass are of them.
One need not live in Ireland to understand it or the sad state of its ppl. An understanding of sociology, history, psychology & cognizance of the effects of centuries of clerical sex abuse help to pull things into focus.
Those who are abusive to others are often acting out the abuse they experienced....alcoholism plays a role too.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Most church goers in Ireland are Opus Dei?!!! You are clearly talking out ur arse! Most church goers in ireland have never heard of them!!!! Where in the blue fuck do you get ur info?!!!! I'm done with u man, dont bother replying, im not interested in a youtube debate with a lunatic
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 The same applies in the US. A mere handful of those still going to mass are truly devout persons, not in any 'group'. BUT the majority who go to church are part of OD or the several related groups:
Legion of Christ/Regnum Christi, Communion & Liberation, Neo-Catechumenals, Focolare, et.al., and the many seemingly unrelated sub groups of 'feeders', like certain Marian or other devotional groups. Many do not realize what they are joining.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 I told u not to reply to me, im getting tired of my gmail inbox being topped up with your shit talk. Opus Dei is practically non-existent in ireland, ok! nobody fucking knows them i ireland like u make out. Church goers are the older generation, and believe me, they're not going to latch onto a group with a name they don't even understand. Opus Dei came here in the ninties, church goers have been on a steady decline since the eighties....go figure
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 I assure you: OD has been in Ireland a LOT longer then that. Some of those 'older ppl' are in it, or the various ancillary groups I mentioned. They recruit HEAVILY with kids, signing up those as young as 14.
As I said, duplicity is their prime mode. Many being groomed for OD have their members in their social circle. They target the intelligent & middle class or above. Other groups (Charismatics) tend to groom lower classes.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 For example, in the US such 'feeder' groups would include:
Knights of Columbus, Ancient Order of Hibernians, Legion of Mary, Secular Franciscans, & other 'apostolates' extant nationally. Anyone involved with World Youth Day is (ultimately) involved with OD, as they run it. Where do you think ALL those hordes come from? Or the attendees at Papal Audiences?
These things thrive on ignorance & innocence, hooking those who may be sincere - but clueless.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 I fucking told u already, ur tarring everyone with ur american brush. These orders u mention are hugely unknown in ireland. Old people go to church these days, and they have no fucking clue about these orders! Take it from me man, i live here, what happens in the US happens in the US. Irish church goers are not in the Opus fucking Dei or would even know who they are! They go o sunday for 40 min and thats it....nothing more! seriously, ur talking through ur ass my friend!
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@19lfm12 seriously man, my fucking mum is a church goer, she has no idea who or where these organisation are! Opus dei are unheard of here.....period. I dont care how powerful they are in america, irish people are very suspicious of other or new religious bodies. Really man, ur not from here so quit talking about ireland like u know anything about its people or the devoted sheep that attend church, ur simply speculating! wouldnt be the first time either
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 What I said applies to Europe: basically nobody goes to church, except those linked with these groups. Yes, there are exceptions, but very few. Hint: older ppl would know Latin, & the meaning of the phrase. The more 'obedient' one is the less one would question the existence of OD, even if they never joined it or any group. They would see it as 'good'.
19lfm12 1 year ago
19lfm, If you want to do something good for humanity, write to your congress person / people and ask them why they aren't speaking out on the injustices going on in some countries in Africa where ignorant christian missionaries have sown their evil seeds of hatred, ignorance and injustice to persecute gay men for being who they are. Thanks to American Evangelical missionaries in Africa, especially in the 1990s, some African governments now believe that they should be killing gay men.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 The reality of that African scenario, is that Opus Dei is in this up to their necks. The direct & literal link of The Family/C Street House with the anti-gay agenda there has been proven. That group is connected with OD; in the same way the Heritage Foundation, Focus on the Family, & the radical Pro-Lifers are....all tied to OD.
When you are looking for an invisible man in the snow, you seek his footprints.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@deecee10000
that's just a daft suggestion. We all KNOW why the congress aren't speaking out about injustice. It's up to you and I, the working people, to stand up and speak against injustice.
SyndicalistTimes 1 year ago
@SyndicalistTimes I don't usually give much thought to conspiracy theories, however "The Family" in DC has been in the news, as have US Evangelicals seeding their hatred of gays in African countries. And you're correct; human rights begin and take root with individuals & regular citizens. What worries me is the abuse of power by the leadership in the Catholic Church and how much they still hold over their followers' thoughts. They are still led to believe that following blindly is virtuous.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000
Isn't that what organised religions are all about? Secularism ftw.
SyndicalistTimes 1 year ago
@19lfm; ive seen ur profile page, if u disagree with the catholic church then why call urself catholic, why not call urself just christian instead? (even though christian teachings are ultimately similar to almost all of the religions...dont kill, dont steal, dont lie bla bla blaa) why do u give the church credibility by associating with them at all? grow some balls and break away from them, grow some hair on those balls and abandon the whole lot....we'll be waitin on the evolutionary turnpike:)
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 1) there is a big difference between the Catholic Faith (what the Apostles& their early successors lived) & the Vatican. The two are not identical; & the latter does not believe in the former
2) The 'evolution' you speak of is not going to happen. There is no Time left. And, sadly for you, you do not realize what it going on even mundanely, as the 'news' in the US is grossly controlled. Ppl are somewhat more aware of reality in Europe & elsewhere....
19lfm12 1 year ago
Opus Dei, Opus Dei. You talk about fact yet u blather about opus dei. Neither u nor anyone else on this page has access to opus dei, therefore ur speculating from an outsider point of view, therefore u know nothing for sure, thereofre shut the fuck up and fuck off
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 Now if you are quite through running your potty mouth......
I do not care if you wish to remain Blind to reality & ignore truth. You are not willing to understand what Opus Dei it: it is NOT what Dan Brown paints! That is intentionally planted lie. The 'pious ones' who whip themselves are a mere fraction of their membership. A front - for public consumption.
Those taken in by such also believe that High School Musical was good.......
19lfm12 1 year ago
19lfm, You seem to be really stuck on Opus Dei. Have you considered moving on and getting a life?
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 (cont.) Anytime we speak of the Neocons & the Religious Right - of any groups, think tanks, PACs, etc. connected to this, we are speaking of the spawn of OD.
...like your beloved Tea Party. Which trades on selfishness, ignorance & greed, & transforms it into a political agenda wherein anyone not on board with their agenda is 'the enemy'.
Perhaps you should look into the Fascist take-overs in Spain, Germany, Italy....Latin America.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
To clarify: what I stated is deadly serious...they are playing for keeps. It will be the Inquisition on steroids. Soon.
Now you do not have to believe this & are free to scoff. But be assured that this will be manifested by Rome. Many will fall for this deception; some will not. Fear & hunger are strong motivators. But you have been warned....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Mmmmkaaaay. And you know this to be true because. . .? Wait! Don't tell me! You read it in the bible. The same bible that taught us about THE "original" sin in a "garden of eden" paradise that never was also has the answer on how an All-Knowing Jesus Man-God is going to come back to save the planet (again) from the pope. M'thinks the pope and his child molesting bishops are already doing a great job at destroying whats left of that overgrown dinosaur, no Jesus Superman required.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 As previously stated - you have been given fair warning. You choose not to heed? Your free choice........
More could readily be explained,including factual evidence. But your mind is closed & you would not believe even if one would rise from the dead before you to tell you this.
Over 50 Million perished in WWII; the direct result of the Vatican's disobedience to a very simple request from God. How much worse now...........? Watch.
19lfm12 1 year ago
19lfm12 Your metaphysical / physical response to my questions do not work. Before you continue defending your "bible", can you answer some of my questions honestly? Or are you too lazy to do the research? Perhaps you're too stupid. Maybe you're afraid. Yes we know Catholic Church leaders are corrupt and deserve imprisonment. Most people don't actually care. Why are you still arguing in defense of a book and religion based on a lie?
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 You need to be able to delineate between the true core of the 'catholic faith' & the Vatican organization. The two are NOT one & the same! If you cannot, I can go no further..... Using your 'logic', Socrates must be discarded as a fictional character & the words attributed to him as BS.....as none of his writing is extant, & he is only known via 2nd & 3rd hand sources.
Objectivity & intellectual honesty....please acquire some.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@deecee10000 Ratz - who is not a legitimate pope in ANY sense of the word - + Opus Dei (whose pious facade is both false & a mere fraction of its true numbers....) will present a False Christ to the world. Attempt to compel all to worship 'it'.
So great will be the deception that many will fall for it; even some Atheists.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 I don't follow any organized religion. I would much rather get my info on the laws of the universe from professionals, scientists who mostly use non-biased methods, calculations and non-biased observation.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 "...professionals, scientists...."
What you fail to grasp in your Blindness is that those whom you are placing your trust in....are members/Collaborators of, and/or employees of entities owned or controlled by Opus Dei.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 : In your last post you waffle on about completely irrelevant info that has nothing to do with this issue. Your religion is involved in banking, hoarding and rape. It's actually funny watching u trying to approach this issue with candour and intelligent debate! Your rotting church and its religion is dying out my friend, besides, all ur talk is speculation, you know none of what you speak of as actual fact. therefore shut the fuck up and deal with fact, not faith, u mong!
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 The deeds of Opus Dei which you cite - which literally owns the Vatican & controls the Vatican Bank (thus every Diocese on earth...) has absolutely NOTHING to do with what Christ taught, nor with the true core of the 'catholic faith'.
That core: Sermon on the Mount & Beatitudes. Comprehend & live these & one is of God - even if you do not believe in Him...
Neither Opus Dei nor the Vatican which is its puppet believe nor live thus. Ergo....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 For example, I & many others were taught in grade school that the principles & mechanics of modern banking & credit were 'invented by the Jews' during the Middle Ages.
False. Such were actually the invention of the Knights Templar, of which there is more then adequate proof. The predecessors of Opus Dei...
Deflection. Blame Shifting via use of the Great Lie principle. Scapegoating others & making millions believe the lie.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 : Perhaps i need to read? I have read it, word for word, and there is no mention of male prostitutes. It simply says one man lying with another man...period. Your interpretation is irrelevant! 'If a man lies with another man'...not... 'if a male prozzy lies with another male prozzy'. You are simply interpreting it as you see fit. There is no back story here, is cut and dry obvious. Perhaps you need to answer the accusations i made against you....how can you possibly defend these people?
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 You have Eyes yet you remain willfully Blind. Truth has been explained to you, yet your Ears do not Hear.
God does neither hate nor persecute gay ppl. If you cannot comprehend that, then you are hopelessly lost in hatred.
It is evil men who have made gays societal scapegoats along with Jews.....for the evil which they themselves do.
Ponder that.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 In re the intergenerational vilification of gays by the Church - this is Deflection.
In the 11th cent. St. Peter Damien, a Vatican Cardinal, wrote the Book of Gomorrah. It details the horrific immorality, then long standing among clerics. Including rape or men, women & kids, ritualized sex abuse, bestiality, etc. Thus the Vatican KNEW of abuse for 1000 years
...while Blame-Shifting for centuries to 'those horrid gays'.....get the idea now?
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 If you are unable to grasp the significance of what I've asked previously, referring to evolution, "original sin", the time this world and universe have existed, the BILLIONS of years life has existed on this planet most of it LONG before human were present, so forth, I suggest you do some SERIOUSLY DEEP thinking about what it all means for a religion like Christianity. . . or are you still in denial.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 Please learn how to read......I already made it quite clear that I believe Evolution to be valid scientific theory; & that the known universe may well be Billions of years old. But there is no conclusive proof of its exact age; this is factual!
Nobody is demanding that you believe in God, nor in original sin. I was merely trying to explain it simply.
19lfm12 1 year ago
If one reads the Gospel accounts objectively, to whom does God first make known his incarnation as Christ? To the religious leaders? To the 'oh-so-pious' ones?
No.....to filthy, illiterate shepherds- considered by the Jewish ppl as scum...'non-believers'...even considered bestial & gay by some of them.
The 2nd group He led to see the infant were the Magi.....pagan occultists....'non-believers'.
My point: God does not despise Atheists. He despises hypocritical 'believers'.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Correct. Not one mention of sex or the Jesus in the bible being "tempted" by sex in the New Testament. . .which is really strange considering he was supposedly 33 yrs at death and male and never even masturbated. I think its silly to still have man-made gods. We now have governing bodies that replace theocracies; much more human rights friendly. The Jesus story in the bible is good as a moral lesson, but you see people sacrificing their lives for the good of many in everyday life.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@19lfm12 how can u possibly begin to defend this group of rapists and rape cover up artists, when a letter like this is staring you in the fucking face? How can u possibly come across as well meaning when your congregation has actively covered up the rape of children? How completely fucking stupid are you to even show up on this page and begin a defence case of this, the most heinous of crimes angainst them, the most innocent and vunerable, whilst signing off in christs name? Enjoy hell fucker
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 Once again, you obviously have no reading comprehension.
I have made my opinion of this letter & the Vatican very clear: they are guilty of vast, global criminal conspiracy.
Which of those words is confusing to you?
19lfm12 1 year ago
@ 19lfm12 actually god does condemn gay people u complete retard! Leviticus 20:13 : "'If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. This translation is the same in all bible versions. You just got owned you brainwashed sycophantic weakling. Commiserations man, your religion and its days are truly fucking numbered
gingerjuice123 1 year ago
@gingerjuice123 Perhaps you need to learn how to read....
As previously explained, the scant 7 verses in the entire Bible which refer to gay sex acts are NOT a condemnation of gay ppl, nor of gay sex acts (of themselves0.
They are condemnations of Male Prostitution & Concubines; quite prevalant in the ancient world. And still extant in the Vatican & high political circles globally.
Homosexuality is neither mentioned in the Commandments nor did Christ say one word of it. End of story...
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 What I'm saying is that knowing what I know, I wouldn't want you to be MY pastor or minister. I would consider you just as big a liar as the pope and his disgusting, criminal bishops. Religions don't work for me, but I do believe in freedom and eradicating ignorance that fuels bigotry in a society. As I've said before, when you start teaching that a book such as the bible was dictated by "god", not only are you lying but you are planting destructive seeds of bigotry.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 Nobody is asking, much less forcing you to believe anything.
Perhaps you should consider that it is organized religion, not God, which is at fault. As they have completely misrepresented Him. Confecting a version of 'God' which serves their selfish ends; using Him as key to the hegemony.
'Opus Dei" actually translates as: "the project of making/building 'God' ".
Ponder that.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 I you believe in the judeo-christian "God" or gods, you ultimately come to the conclusion that humans are being punished from birth and that the planet is no longer a "paradise" as a result of human sin. I can't believe that "God" would create this unimaginably enormous universe with its non-paradise properties to punish the offspring of original humans from some other dimension where a "Paradise" exists. Christianity did not take into account what we now know about the universe.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 Sorry, that was "IF you believe. . ."
deecee10000 1 year ago
@19lfm12 I also can't believe that any TRULY just "God" would punish innocent babies, animals, and this entire universe for billions of years simply because the first human beings "sinned". The "original sin" idea works if your world is very small and the center of a tiny universe where your planet is all that exists and you believe the world is only a few hundred or thousand years old. Its an outdated creation story, just like the other creation stories before that one.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 In your Blindness what you fail to grasp is that - whether we speak of animals or humans - their days are numbered. In the sense that they are made to live & then die. Thus it becomes irrelevant how long an animal or human lives, or their manners of death (within this context...).
A man can live for 12 years or 90. What counts is that they lived; & what they did with the time alloted to them.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 And you believe I am blind because. . .? What r u talking about? Didn't you read my comment which said "be a good person, reject bigotry, help those in need when you can, so forth. . .? Mmmmkaaayyy, so you believe that the Vatican and one of the Vatican's darling groups, Opus Dei, both who are usually at odds with scientists are now controlling the scientific community? Hey, if that's what you wanna believe by all means. . .go for it.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 If one tries to live as Jesus taught - even if he does not know of Jesus or does not believe in or know God - he is on the right path.
As to OD....they own & control the Vatican, as they have had control of the Vatican Bank for many years now. It controls funds deposited by local Dioceses & makes loans to them. He who controls the purse, owns the store.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 To be honest, the judeo-christian creation story only works if you leave OUT evolution if you think it out. One very obvious question is, why would "God" punish all living things and the universe for 15 or 16 BILLION years before human beings evolved and "originally sinned"? Humans evolved from the animals, not the other way around; certainly not created separately by species all on or around the same time. Its taken billions of years for life to evolve to its present state.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 1) While the development of human life on earth, evolving from lower species, took millions of years, any precise dating of the time span by scientists is largely an educated guess. Science deals largely in Theories, arriving at truth over time.
2) While 'billions' could indeed be correct (& I would tend to agree) one cannot posit such as fact; only theory.
3) Perhaps you should read the 1st chapter of Genesis.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Also ask yourself; why would any living thing in a "paradise" have to eat or consume anything else in that "paradise". Of course we need the energy to live, but why would you need to do that in "paradise" if everything is supposedly perfect in "paradise"? Through evolution, we even developed teeth and fluids so we could digest whatever we eat and get the most out of it. Why would we have to do that in a "paradise"? Shouldn't the food have already been perfect for digestion?
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 The 'Paradise' was called so as Man dwelt with God (in the spiritual sense). Man was created as a creature with metabolic function; he has to eat. His body is mortal; it will die eventually. The 'soul' or consciousness is eternal. 'Paradise' was an earthly place, not eternal. When man was cast out via disobedience, he no longer 'dwelt with God'.
You are confusing the metaphysical with a physical place/state.
19lfm12 1 year ago
In the final analysis: doctrines, dogmas & denominations are irrelevant. It is what you are & how you live which counts.
It is also interesting to note that Jesus never condemned Atheists/Agnostics/non-believers. Actually He taught that they were capable of great moral virtue.
He condemned the leaders of organized religion & their fanatical groupies.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
Dear bishop- please hide all our pedos and do not report them to authorities or pay off the children- we here in Rome will cover up the money laundering in the Vatican Bank- dont worry we are the richest organization in the world and well get through this thanks to our blind followers- ps The Pope sends his regards and reminds you the next satanic meeting is next saturday at 12.00 midnight at the usual place Kind regards- Cardinal Corrupto Abusio
salvadory 1 year ago
@salvadory You forgot to note that Cardinal Corrupto Abusio is a member of Opus Dei.......there is a none-too-subtle hint in there, in re all the point you touched upon!
(and that was a brilliant comment!)
19lfm12 1 year ago
The pope and his bishops should be tried in a court of law. People defending them while having no remorse or shame over the abuse of so many kids should be educated on what is happening within their Catholic Church. I doubt they are getting any truth from their clergy or bishops on what is going on. If the pope wants to use the "devil made me do it" argument in a court of law then so be it, but he and his bishops should most definitely be tried in a civil court.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 Agreed: they should be tried in a civil court! Most Catholics are in complete Denial of the reality of the matter; & their priests/bishops have been feeding them lies, predicated upon their 'loyalty = faith'. Unfortunately such loyalty is NOT to God, nor to what Jesus taught....but to the Vatican itself.
That is the object of veneration for them: the Vatican Administration. Not God. It is a classic 'bait & switch', using Christ as a corporate logo.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@deecee10000 The 'devil made me do it' argument is intrinsically flawed. If you are tempted to evil, & then do it, YOU are responsible for your misdeed. There are no excuses.
And if the devil has power in the Vatican - & I would agree with that assertion - that does NOT serve as an excuse for evil deeds. Or for enabling child rape & torture.
Whether one is a Theist or not, one is responsible for his actions.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 lets hope the devil is in corntrol. He killed not half as many people as god did.
IgorAusDemKeller 1 year ago
@IgorAusDemKeller Looks to me as if, assuming there is a "Creator", we (the evolving life / creation) weren't meant to know what the universe really is or who the "Creator" is. When you consider the unimaginably enormous expanse of the universe and how far everything in the universe is isolated from itself, then consider how it all consumes itself in one way or another. . .well lets just say this isn't a Paradise (by any human being's standard of what a true Paradise should be).
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 What you say here is (believe it or not) very close to the truth; man was really NOT intended to 'know everything'. This is true both in the universal sense (all men) & in the particular, as some men are more willing to learn then others.
The more one is detached from his base passions & selfishness, moving toward Altruism (and beyond....), the more prepared he is to comprehend the Creator.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@IgorAusDemKeller (Cont'd) Then again, maybe this a "paradise" for gorillas and human beings arose from mutations gone out of control. Species are always dying off while new ones emerge so it wouldn't be unusual for the human race to die off after a while. There's also the question of a Creator of this known universe and the creator from which life came from (life as we know it on our minuscule portion of the universe).
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 Yes...and no. Evolution is the mechanism which the Creator used to create - continually. As an ongoing process. It is inexorably linked with perceptible cycles in nature. Man most certainly did evolve from lower forms of man as well as from the animal kingdom. Despite the ravings of many 'christian' fanatics, Genesis does actually indicate this.
The two manifestations of 'creator' which you are denoting are one & the same.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Hopefully I'm not offending you too much, and you should not be offended too much since you didn't write the book of Genesis or any of the books in the "Bible", but Christians have used every type of interpretation for stories and passages you can think of to say the Bible is true. In fact, people in this country used to think that owning slaves was okay according to the bible. Genesis, "Noah's ark" and other such stories were probably handed down to the author from other civilizations
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 No - you are not offending me:) Neither Genesis nor any other book in the Bible was intended primarily as a history or science text. Though they do allude to such.
There was a 'great flood' in antiquity, as the Genesis account is mirrored by many accounts of ancient civilizations, indicating a global catastrophe. Thus there would have been 'regional Noahs". But the precise details of the 'flood' or w/e are another matter altogether.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Cont'd. . . .not a burning bush. Uncannily similar stories about "the flood", a man living in a big fish, a written code of law, and yes even a god-man who was born to a virgin, performed miracles, was crucified then ascended from the dead existed in OTHER places / civilizations before the judeo-christians wrote their books with of some of these stories included. No biggie. I don't care. Its different though when someone tries to force them on you as if "god" had dictated them.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 Indeed- God does not 'force' himself on ppl....men do that in Fanaticism.
The true core of Christ's teaching is: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". He who truly lives this,sincerely without seeking reward is 'christian', even if he never head of Christ. The key to being 'of God' is sincerity & coherence.
Thus many 'non-believers' who live thusly will be 'saved'.
Many 'christians' would call me 'heretic' for this.....yet this is the truth.
19lfm12 1 year ago
Again, you can believe what you want in this country but we are slowly getting away from believing that everything in the judeo-christian bible is "THE Truth". . .and for good reason since the bible is one bigoted f@#$ed up book. We have a government that isn't controlled by the pope or any other fucked up religious organization. We are becoming a more equal rights society. Women, minorities, gays, and others are slowly becoming equals in society as it should be.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 (assuming you refer to the US...) yes, agreed: that is the way things should be. Equality among humans.
I would suggest however that the problem is not the Bible itself, but rather those who have posited themselves as the 'guardians' of it. Who have (intentionally) twisted, mistranslated & edited it for selfish ends. I refer to the Vatican.
For example, in reality, neither gay persons nor gay sex acts are condemned in Scripture.....!
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Actually many things are condemned in the bible including eating shellfish and "A man will not sleep with another man..etc." is pretty straightforward (pardon the pun). If you still need a security blankie, you might consider seeking professional help. I can't pretend to believe in a collection of books that I know are full of falsehoods, bigotry, ignorance and injustices. From my perspective, ignorance by religion isn't bliss; its like a band-aid for an non-healing wound.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 The 'shellfish' issue made sense in the cultural context of the time (i.e. sanitation); but not now.. As to 'man w/another man', the contextual implication is that men would usually marry (a woman). To use another man as a sex toy for adultery is....adultery.
Some assert that Scripture endorses slavery: false. If you work for someone, you are their 'servant'. You have obligations to him; and he to you. It worketh both ways:)
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 When Moses and others decided on what Jewish laws should be, I can assure you that he was homophobic as were some of the authors of the New Testament. How you interpret the bible, whether you twist the meaning of some sentences in your mind doesn't change what the authors intended in the first place. I see much of the bible as outdated, barbaric, and ideal for people who want to use "god" as an excuse to hate others. I'm not buying your pro-bible argument.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 Obviously you have not comprehended what I wrote.....
The 7 verses in the entire Bible which refer to gay sex.....are in condemnation of MALE PROSTITUTION.Not of gays or gay sex itself. Which syllable is confusing to you?
Jesus said not one word about gays or gay sex. If you do not believe me, then read all 4 Gospels.....he DID NOT condemn homsexuals.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@deecee10000 Moses was not 'homophobic'; that is ludicrous. Obviously the mechanical purpose of sex is for reproduction. That only works via opposite sex partners. Yet is was also intentionally designed to be pleasurable.
In ancient times as now, men were cheating on their wives with other men. This is wrong, as it is adultery & using another person as a sex toy. The same applies to the use of men as prostitutes/concubines.
19lfm12 1 year ago
If you were to rewrite the bible, would you include the very same wording? Your interpretation would require you to change the original meaning of the anti-gay laws. The problem you run into when you believe that a book was dictated by "God" is that if it actually was (it wasn't) then you are bound to trust that every word in it is true as a believer and you must also believe that anyone who doesn't believe every word of "God" in your bible or follows it is anti-"God".
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 I have been trying to present assertions based upon Biblical scholarship.....and in return you are arguing out of emotion.
I am telling you what the verses referencing gay sex actually say.....yet you do not want to open your eyes & See. God does not condemn gay persons.
Which of those words are confusing to you?
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Give it up. You are sounding more and more like the right-wing bible thumpers who are always trying to cram their idiotic bible down everyone's throats. It wasn't written by "God" you fucking idiot.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 1) It would seem that you both have a reading comprehension issue & are blinded by your own hatred....
2) I never said 'God wrote the Bible'. He did not. Scirbes, inspired by God, wrote the urtexts. Now...what the Vatican & others have done in terms of self-serving mistranslations & 'editing' is another matter.
3) I have attempted to discuss these issues civilly with you......it is you, nor me, who is ranting & cursing.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 If you use the Jesus in the christian bible as a guide to live your life and you take the core message of "love thy neighbor. . ." without letting religion make you into a bigot then I can see where it would be a positive thing for you in a free, just society. When you start believing that EVERYTHING in the bible is true, then I can plainly see, from firsthand experience, that believers, especially the more hard-core orthodox followers are more likely to be bigots.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 We are agreed in re Fanaticism. At the same time, much depends on what these 'things in the Bible' are. If Scripture is MISused as pretext to racism, bigotry, hatred, homophobia, etc....agreed!
BTW - Jesus used non-believers as positive role models of morality in His teachings. In the Parable of the Good Samaritan. The 1st ppl guided to see him as an infant (shepherds) & the Magi were both considered pagan/non-believer/heathens.....not the 'pious believers'.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@deecee10000 As to the US not being 'controlled by the pope'...not overtly. However, if you look closely at the religious right, it IS being controlled by Opus Dei (directly or indirectly). The details will not fit in this box. But if you know how to play 'connect the dots' you will see the truth of this. All in the universe of the 'neocons' links to them.
Psst...Dan Brown might as well have been paid by OD to write his books. It's easy to defend yourself from bad press...that you wrote:)
19lfm12 1 year ago
@IgorAusDemKeller In short, I don't put my trust in or have blind faith in religions who claim to know "THE truth". I would probably believe what they say if they admitted that they don't know all that much about the universe and a "Creator" . . .but then they would probably lose most of their followers it they did that.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 This is where organized Christianity has failed miserably. It was neither supposed to rule the world, nor to pretend that is has ALL the answers to everything. As mere mortals, the latter is ludicrous.
What is SHOULD have done is to help guide those freely willing to find God. To teach what Christ taught; spiritual truths.
Instead they posited themselves as the all knowing & powerful OZ.....who was really a humbug.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@IgorAusDemKeller Look at the history of the past 1700 years; did God kill all of those ppl, or did evil men claiming to act 'in His Name' do such?
The truth: those of the latter group did it. Not God. Nor satan. God had nothing to do with any of those many atrocities. Nor can his words be twisted to 'pin it' on Him.
Again - if I do wrong; I am responsible for my actions. That is the way it works.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Did evil men let rain fire on Sodom?
If you do wrong, you are responsible for your actions. God too.
IgorAusDemKeller 1 year ago
@IgorAusDemKeller A man walks out a 12th story window. Is God punishing him, or has he brought upon himself pain & death by his own stupidity? Breaking the law of gravity is just like breaking any other law God set up: it has a consequence. This can be expressed as an equation in physics.
The 'sin of Sodom' had zero to do with homosexuality. They were engaging in mindless Hedonism & Occultism without any scruples. Thus, the 12 th floor window.....applies.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 and their children were, too, of course. Really bad sinners, these newborns.
IgorAusDemKeller 1 year ago
@IgorAusDemKeller It is precisely such inane 'red herrings' which make it impossible to calmly discuss these matters with some ppl. Because you are not willing to understand.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Avoiding to answere is not an argument. I would not be asking questions if did not want to understand.
Tell me: Why did god burn all these children?
In your example the situation would look this way, i think: The parents walk out that window, not caring about gods law of gravity, with their children in hands.
The children suffer for the sins of the fathers. Does not seem fair to me.
IgorAusDemKeller 1 year ago
@IgorAusDemKeller The christian religion doesn't have a viable answer for a question such as that. They still rely on the bible's creation story which tries to say that the reason there is suffering in this world is because "Adam & Eve" committed sin. In their story--- "God" really is a nice guy; this world was a "paradise" when he originally made it, but it "Eve's" sin that made the world is what it is today. Now--- Fossil evidence shows us the planet was never a "paradise" to begin with.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 But as God created them this way, it is obviously HIS fault.
It is a really sad fact, that religious people refuse to answere or start aggressions ("you are not willing to understand"), when they discover a paradoxon in their beliefs. I AM willing to understand, but they just do not have any argument, that could make me belief. They do not even have one to make me WILL believe, everytime one of them tells me how nice their god is, another one tells me, their god will burn me.
IgorAusDemKeller 1 year ago
@deecee10000 There are answer to all of these things; both your queries & those of Igor in the Cellar.
But as you are not willing to Listen & Understand, it would be pointless to explain.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 Somehow you've managed to ignore my questions but have continued to write more bs in the process. Do you believe in christianity's "original sin" explanation for why this world is not a "paradise"? If it was a "paradise" before humans came along, why did most of the species that have existed since life began thriving on this planet die off? btw, you overcome gravity to some extent every time you lift something or fly in an airplane.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 Go back & re-read what was said about 'paradise' & original sin....
As to whatever you are trying to say about extinct species....what is your point? There are many reasons for this, including the fact that the have been global natural/climate catastrophes which wiped out certain animals.
Have you ever taken a Philosophy course? Or comparative religions survey course? Seemingly not, or you would be able to understand objectively what you do not believe in.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 So you expect for me to believe in some fucked up religion when you can't answer the simplest questions I ask you? From your lack of explanation or defense on "original sin" besides "go re-read. . ", I should assume that you don't have an answer to my question. Your religion's 'messiah" depends on the assumption that your bible's creation myth is true. It isn't true. Its dumb explanation of why "God" made this world's creatures live in a world that isn't a paradise is a lie.
deecee10000 1 year ago
19lfm12, I would probably take you more seriously if you were more honest with me. If you don't know the answer to something, you should just be honest and say "I don't know". Now that you've deceitfully manipulated your responses to avoid answering my questions, I have to assume that you are avoiding my questions because you don't have a real answer.
deecee10000 1 year ago
19lfm12, Give it up buddy. You're "messiah" died with the dinosaurs. They had him for lunch, shit him into a hole then covered whatever remained of him with the good earth. He was already dead even before being conceived. The universe, we now know, is infinitely bigger than any man-god, humanly created on this tiny tiny grain of a rock we call Earth. Be a good person, reject bigotry, help those in need when you can and offer your talents and strengths to help build a just society.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 You have clearly demonstrated the utter inability to show respect for the beliefs of others, and to look at something with intellectual detachment & objectivity. Equally obvious that you have never had a liberal arts university education.
I can readily discuss the concepts of Buddhism with a Buddhist with respect & detachment, even though I do not believe in that faith.You should try that sometime with Christianity.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@deecee10000 I will leave you with one thought:
Very shortly the Vatican & the global power aligned with it fully intend to foist upon the world the False Christ; in a faked 2nd Coming. This will not be the real Jesus of Nazareth, but a demonic fake. They will try to compel all to worship it with food as the leverage. This is no joke. The real Christ will not laud the Vatican, nor torture/imprison those who will not 'believe'.
Speak to me civilly & will try to explain for you.....
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 You can pretty much go on about anything you want on this page; I don't believe in censorship. . .unless you get out of hand and start threatening other commenters.
deecee10000 1 year ago
It makes no difference to me what religion anyone is or whether they believe in a god. If following a certain religion makes you a better person in society, especially a free democratic society, a society striving to end bigotry, discrimination, hatred against citizens who are different than you, then by all means enjoy your religion. Unfortunately, I've seen most of the bigotry and hatred in society coming from religions and many of their followers. We as citizens should not put up with it.
deecee10000 1 year ago
@deecee10000 The test of 'loyalty' for Catholics IS to Blindly defend the pope, bishops & abusers, with no remorse or shame, or charity for the abuse victims. Logic is misused & Inverted to justify evil - & has already been used elsewhere to take this document & completely Invert what it says. As if it were somehow morally justifiable.
In His teaching, Christ explicitly condemns bigotry, hatred, elitism & oppression. The Vatican has made a business of these; making 'christians' into Fanatics.
19lfm12 1 year ago
In classical theology, what Ratzinger has done here (which was certainly done in ALL dioceses globally) was identical with the work of satan.
Satan induces man to evil. By temptation & also peer pressure; coercion. Then when the man does evil, he not only induces guilt in the man- but accuses him of the very evil he induced of the man.
...as Ratz did by ordering this letter, then later blaming the Irish bishops for the abuse crisis!
19lfm12 1 year ago
Translation of the 'Vatican-speak':
1) You may not report abusers to civil law enforcement
2) If, as a Bishop, you take Canonical action against an abuser priest - suspend him, remove him from office, forbid him to act as a priest, he can take his case to the Vatican - & the Vatican will side WITH THE ABUSER
3) The abuser may then bring the bishop up on Canonical charges & the Vatican will PUNISH the bishop for not enabling the abuser.
19lfm12 1 year ago
@19lfm12 (cont.) 4) the Vatican, and thus the Bishop, holds the 'rights' of an accused priest in higher esteem then those of an abuse victim.
5) Bishops are thus required to keep silent about abuse & to protect the abusers.
Thus a bishop who has enough of a conscience to want to do what is right is placed in a moral double-bind; compelled to silence & de facto complicity. In spite of his personal convictions.
19lfm12 1 year ago