Being a Christian does not mean that you try to live a christian life because you are afraid of Hell. AT ALL. I am not afraid of anything on earth or in heaven. It is my need for absolute Justice and desire to see God and be with the source of all Goodness that is my driving motive. Period. Why most atheists think Christians are little scared narrow-minded immature and ireesponsible"children"?
this guy is basically saying because your not christian, you dont know or cant know the difference between simple right and wrong thats in a book a guy wrote whilst speaking with an angel talking directly to god... yeah people might have fallen for that a long time ago, but im not going to now...
@pyrrhios You're an idiot. Listen to his lecture: view_play_list?p=86761B58B16BDF68. He says you can still KNOW what is right or wrong even if you're not a Christian. Would it kill you to try to be fair? Maybe the best thing to do is to unplug your ears while watching the videos, ok?
@pyrrhios there is no way on earth that that is what he was saying. I am not a Christian but even I can clearly see that in no way did he say, or even imply, what you claim of him.
Instead of arguing your points that a lot of you haven't researched in depth why not instead watch arguments by high-level debaters like Craig or Hitchens.
I'd like to point out that there are high-level scientists who believe in God as well as those who don't (eg Francis Collins who broke the human genome).
Surely the fact that scientists can become the best in their fields regardless of their religious beliefs implies that religion is an issue for philosophy not science.
@remise2 no, it's neither. it's an issue of historical inaccuracy. there can be nothing philosophical when its basis is false, because that is a false paradigm.
@kkdkk7 I only talk of 8 prophecies, not "thousands". The OT was written hundreds of years before Christ. Yet it says Christ would be born in the town of Bethlehem. That's a prophecy. And he was born in Bethlehem. If 7 more such prophecies prove true, you've got a statistical problem. So pease tell me how this prophecy has been "decimated". I'm really curious.
Typical atheist hypocrisy ! You don't know if God exists, but if ever he does exist, YOU know exaclty what he thinks. That's funny.
If Christians can even convincingly prove 1 of the 300 "prophecies" as legitimate, the whole world would be Christian by now .. no , not even a single "miracle" or "prophecy" has passed the test of proper scrutiny up till now, this is truly a demonstration of how weak the claims are ..
mm.. I did not say that u r guilty of anything, I am merely suspicious that u r self-delusional, thats all..
Quoting the bible as a historical event is what we call "Using the Bible to prove the Bible", why u still don't get it ?
(if a piece of writing is not accepted as a historical material, and yet christians wants to use it as a reference to prove the authenticity of their beliefs, do u not see the problem ? )
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A boat made of hole-ridden wooden planks will not sail.
@kkdkk7 In logic "guilt by association" is an invalid argument.
I used the book of Micah. The authenticity of this book was confirmed by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1946. Google it.
Micah told where Jesus would be born. Roman historians Josephus & Tacitus, Govenor Pliny, contemporary rabinnical records, Greek satirist Lucian all talk of Jesus. More historical evidence exists for Jesus than for Julius Caesar.
Where's the problem ? Unless you deny Caesar's existence too ?
(3) Any so-called prophecies about the coming of Jesus is purely the wishful interpretations of Christian apologetics. For example, Christians wld take "teacher" to be Jesus while any non-Christian wld not make such an unfounded assumption.
(1) JOSEPHUS - this historian's writing has been so obviously and amatuerishly altered by the dirty hands of the early Christian Church that it was never even quoted by the Church as an evidence for Jesus' historicity for fear of being exposed as an altered text.
(2) TACITUS - the same suspicion as that of Jospehus - highly probable that Tacitus' original manuscript was altered and destroyed by the Church's "professional" scribes who later proclaimed the fake edited versions as Tacitus' works.
(3) LUCIAN - this person is born more than 100 years later than Jesus, need I say more ? Obviously many pple would have heard of the legends of Christianity by then so its not surprising that Jesus's name would surface in a few literatures by then in the form of hearsay accounts.. furthermore Lucian failed to provide the sources of his informations about Christianity so he could well have gathered his infos from any non-reliable non-qualified sources..
PLINY - also born more than 100yrs later than Jesus's time - should I spend time repeating the same things I said about Lucian, you already get the gist i hope ?
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SO how do u suppose I can even accept those "miracles" when I can't even be sure your about the validity of your so-called "proofs" of historicity ?
@kkdkk7 You're not seriously claiming that Jesus of Nazareth never existed are you ? That it's all just a big hoax ? A big world-wide 2 thousand year-old conspiracy ?
Wow you're paranoid.
I've got a friend who believes the same thing and now he sleeps in a padded cell.
I am not saying that Jesus never existed or that Christianity must be a hoax..
I am just saying that for more than 2000 years it is very very strange that no Christian has ever presented any thing that can prove the Christian claims beyond the reasonable doubts, whether its a hoax is just one possible reason for this strangeness - just like how no one has ever proven the magical Santa or pink unicon or Zeus..
I am simply saying don't base your actions on unfounded beliefs..
You must understand the more ancient the beliefs the more grounds to doubt its validity due to ancient pple being more gullible, less educated, less archival technology to verify things, no voice/video recorders, word of mouth sensationalism, dubious historical and political interests at work etc etc.
Until a few decades ago everyone believed matter to be eternal.
Only the bible said it was created. Scientists mocked the bible for being uneducated, gullible, ancient, etc.
Then cosmologists came up with the Big Bang theory. Now everyone accepts that matter, energy, time & space had a beginning. Looks like uneducated Moses took Einstein to school !
Talking of fairy tales, don't you believe a frog can turn into a prince ? Now that's very educated, very sophisticated indeed !
The Big Bang theory did not make any assertion that matter engergy time and space had a beginning, who told you that ?
It simply says that the universe seems to be expanding, but it does not make any assumption on whether everything was "conceived" roughly 14 billion years ago, it merely says that there was a time when the universe was a lot denser than right now, going further back is not an impossibility but its not what the theory is currently dealing with ..
The association of Big Bang theory with a beginning of the universe is just another strawman argument made by Christians like u who thinks that saying so will help you during a debate - but it never was an assertion of the Big Bang theory.
This kind of association is only made by someone who is not sincerely having an honest discusion but by someone whose only aim in talking is to win a debate at all means..
By the way, why are Christians so scattered in their interpretations of the bible ?
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One group says the Big Bang is bullshit, the the world was created in roughly a few thousand years, Another group says god created the Big Bang .. Is it because the Bible is too ambigous in its wordings ?
Can the Bible be considered to be perfect when it can eaily be misinterpreted to mean anything you want it to be ?
@kkdkk7 1. So when cosmologists say our universe is about 14 billion years old, they're not saying it had a beginning ? Now that's logical !
2. 4000 years ago the bible said the universe had a beginning. For centuries scientists contradicted it. Today the bible is shown to be right.
3. Your misinterpretation of the bible is not a sign of its imperfection. It's a sign of your sinfulness and of God's mercy towards you. After death even you will recognize its perfection.
Now, this is where u need to learn more about the methodology of human science and history -
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TIME
Time is an academic concept created by man for ease of relative referencing between different points in the past, present and even the future..
.. .. it DOES NOT attempt to say if there is a beginning, it merely says how long have transpired since a certain REFERENCE POINT of event in the past.
The Big Bang (BB) is merely that event which scientists used as a reference point.
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Whether the universe or something else existed before Big Bang, since scientists does not have any scientific EVIDENCE that can throw light on the pre-BigBang events, they simply say they have no idea. They don't behave like u or other Christians who baselessly say that there was nothing before 14billion years ago without evidence. They r a lot more down-to-earth and less fluffy.
14billion years is just a measure of how long it has been since BB till now, get it ?
(You don't seem to have a concept of "I don't know" in your mental makeup, it just seems to me that a lot of Christians when faced with something they don't know just make baseless assumptions, thats arrogance. Scientists r much more humble, down to earth and honest than that.)
@uuduu7 Learning from one's mistakes is called repentance in the bible : being sorry for one's actions, stopping them and living a good life.
Repentance is possible only on this earth. Once we die it is impossible to repent. How come ?
Because repentance is a gift from God. Those in hell are under God's wrath and can therefore never repent. That's why we must do it now, while there's time.
Now you know, you have no excuse, so do it now, before it's too late !
How r u so sure that a person in the afterlife cannot have the ability to reflect on his previous mistakes ?
I mean, how are u so sure about all these afterlife claims u make ?
I mean, another person could be also very sure that the opposite of what u say is true - that a soul in the afterlife can in fact reflect and learn from his earthly mistakes - SO, how do I know who is right when 2 persons of the opposite views sound so self-assured ?
My friend uuduu7 has been blocked out by the creator of this video, I am not sure why.. he was not rude or anything like that so perhaps he is blocked for fear that his words are too persuasive and intolerable for the agenda of this video creator..
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Anyway let me respond on his behalf to yr claim that "300 prophecies concerning Jesus. All were fulfilled..."
This is a pretty "old" self-proclamation by Christians, its what we call "using the bible to prove the bible" .. Get it?
Do u really think all throughout history, all the scientists and historians would conspire to deny the authenticity of the bible ?
The problem with your claims of hundreds and thousands of fulfilled prophecies is that none are taken from objective sources, if u bring up those "prohecies" one by one - one by one each claim have been decimated by mere scrutiny of the various disciplines of verification, Sorry..
The fact remains that the Bible states those that do not believe in Jesus as the Savior are going to hell. Therefore, the scare tactic is there. Why? How can God be justified in condemning humans to eternal suffering when God forced humans into this so-called life.
@AnnRKey, Hell denotes the relationship of one's soul & character to the Holiness of God. In truth, no one is condemned except by themselves.
Heaven and hell may be the very same objective place—namely God's love, experienced oppositely by opposite souls. The fires of hell maybe made of the very love of God, experienced as torture by those who hate him: the very light of God's truth, hated and fled from in vain by those who love darkness.
@wood9670 "It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."
Of course there are those that say hell is not eternal on the basis of this passage: "Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
No matter what, its an eternal punishment for a finite "crime". Why should I have to suffer all these years just to be destroyed in the end?
@AnnRKey, Read Rev. 16. 8-11, 21 where the damned in Hell "cursed the name of God... and did not repent of their deeds. "
To hate and reject God is to sin, for we are morally obligated to worship and love God. Sin cannot go unpunished, since God is perfectly just, and so these sins in the afterlife must also be punished. Hence, because sinning goes on forever, so does the punishment. So even if I concede that every sin deserves only a finite punishment, hell is unceasingly self-perpetuating.
@wood9670 My point is that none of us asked to be born. It was forced upon us. We signed no contract. We are not obligated to worship or love God. Yet I am still forced to work my butt off for little reward in this life. It would be unfair to punish me further in the hereafter.
@wood9670 I didn't realize my previous post would be a show-stopper. I thought I might point out that there is a biblical analogy to my sentiments. Mark 14:21 "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
@AnnRKey, well I didn't know how to or see the point in responding to a person who sincerely desires oblivion. I think that passage in Mark is addressing the punishment of an unrepentant Judas in Hell or the purification of a repentant Judas in purgatory.
@wood9670 Are you suggesting Jesus doesn't have any words of wisdom for me? And which is it, hell or purgatory? Seems to me it would have to be hell since the bible says it would be better had he not been born. If its just purgatory, that's not so bad, is it? One just has to do some purgatory and then into heaven. I'll take that over hell. Plus, was what Judas did really that bad? Someone had to do it. It was prophesied. If he didn't do it, then what?
@AnnRKey, Jesus might have some words of wisdom for you but their is no guarantee that you would except them & in any case I am not privy to them so yeah. I can't help you if you truly want oblivion.
And Judas is most likely is in Hell but I was taking the charitable route & suggested Purgatory because its never wise to presume to know the limits of God's mercy.
If Judas hadn't have betrayed JC the Pharisees still would have had him arrested somehow, this does not mitigate Judas' culpability.
Consider again, Judas did not ask to be born. Life was forced upon him by his parent's decision. Do you really think its fair for Judas to spend eternity in hell for his "crime"? Indeed, wouldn't it have been better had he never been born?
And what of the Pharisee's? Should they not be in hell too? And again, the Pharisee's didn't ask to be born. Do you think any of us would take the chance of being born when we know the odds are against us?
@HonestTechnoAtheist Uh, yeah, I guess the perfect logical thing to do is to let someone who doesn't even love Him into heaven then. I guess that's suppose to be genuine love by your definition?
@drcraigvideos He could make a secondary heaven for non christians. Or just erase them after they die. But no an omniscient god can't think of anything better than eternal torture.
@HonestTechnoAtheist Uh, yeah, He couldn't think of a better thing to do that's why He's told his creatures how they can avoid hell anyway. That's so unloving of Him! A second heaven... erace them? Which one do you want? Why is it so hard for you to grasp the concept of hell and heaven? Hell is the consequences of not having a relationship with God. If I told someone if they jump off a cliff the consequence is that they'll fall down to their death, does that make me responsible? Think about it.
@drcraigvideos "that's why he told his creatures how to avoid hell anyways"
Yep all they have to do is abandon their ability of rational thought that he gave them and acknowledge that he screwed up and rather than go back and fix his mistake or just forgive the sins he just sends a copy of himself to die. Jumping off of a cliff is only a one time thing and if you did that it is all over. But hell is an eternal punishment. And I have grasped the concept of heaven and hell.
@HonestTechnoAtheist LOL! And heaven is a one time thing that lasts forever. You're one to talk about irrationality. You think it's unfair of God to send people to hell when he's given them ample opportunity to avoid it. Then you say to do that would be irrational, because that would mean they have to believe in God. But then again you think it's rational to send people to heaven when they don't even believe in God. How obtuse can you be?
@HonestTechnoAtheist Not only could god have made a second heaven for non-believers if he chose to but try to wrap this around your head, a skeptic who just couldn't come to believe in the existence of a god due to the lack of hard evidence not only is damed to hell but is found guilty enough(even though no crime was committed)to be torchered no less for an ETERNITY(NEVER ENDING)!! This hell business seems VERY man made to me OR if not then god is an evil prick!
Christians don't fear hell because we know we deserve hell. It is through Jesus and by grace that we are saved. Even if there was no heaven we'd still do what is right.
What you need to understand it hell was not created for us but for satan and the fallen angels,Jesus Christ is our salvation and wants nothing less than to see all go to heaven.
"born against their will"?God designed you knite you in your mothers womb and has a plane for each of us,and its not "hell" but to walk with God and do his will.
You shouldn't have a problem telling people God is love with the doctrine of hell,because God has given us a way to avoid hell,God sent his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins and by the blood of Christ we are saved if you except what he did for you,know you are a sinner and repent andExcept Christ into your heart.
God did the hard part that no one els could do and no one els was holy enough.He died for all our sins...God is love.
Shane, God is Just and He will give anyone what he deserves.
My parents are agnostics but they are what we colud say "good people"; they help averyone and are kind, howeverrrrrrrr.... they sin and their souls can't rest in Heaven so if there could be siners in Heaven the Heaven woluldn't be Heaven.
They can't be in Heaven, but they won't be treated as rapists so -as I told you- God is Just.
I have been a Christian for 14 years and in that time I have heard every different approach to eternal hell. I sometimes want somebody to come up with something new to blow me away, but it aint gonna happen. Let me put it the best way I know of. Would you allow your children to come into the world knowing they were destined for eternal hell?....didn't think so,...but God does according to the doctrine of eternal hell. I suspect not enough people truly think through the doctrine.
Sh: "Would you allow your children to come into the world knowing they were destined for eternal hell?"
No, I wouldn't, however, I told you, God is Just and He's just going to condemn to suffering to those who Deserve hell, that's it, rapists, killers, and so on...
Brother, Hell is the Eternal Separation from God after dead, but God is not going to pay everyone the same way 'cause if so, God wouldnt be Just.
many people opt for the belief that in hell there will be degrees of punishment (no pun intended) so the scale will be from sitting around the pool drinking cocktails to Hitler and Sadam Insane copping the rough end of the pineapple daily. Do you believe in the lake of fire?
I find it interesting that although most Christians believe in eternal hell and given the fact that most of humanity will be booking into hell, that no Christian wants to or can outline what will be happening in hell for eternity. This is just a thought and not directed at you. Christians tend to just waffle with general statements like God is just and degrees of punishment etc etc but every now and again you get the fire and brimstone type of Christian that loves a good sinners BBQ in hell.
The language used in the Bible to describe hell consists of Jewish metaphors for shame. There is no literal lake of fire. It works like this: God, as the ground of all being, is the standard of goodness. With every sin that we commit, we fall more and more from that standard. You naturally experience a certain amount of shame depending on how far from that standard of goodness you ended up. Thus, people in hell will forever feel whatever as much shame as they inflicted upon themselves.
I am gladto hear you believe there is no literal lake of fire.
Can you go through the logistics involved in your model?
Will they eat, sleep, have sex, where will they live? will they love, work, sing, dance, act, build etc etc...your model sounds like a vacation to Hawaii where it rained the whole time. Can you be specific please?
First, it's not "my" model; it's the Biblical model. The punishment will be directly proportional to the shame the sinner deserves via his sins. Unbelievers will be resurrected, but they will not be permitted to enter the New Jerusalem of glory, but instead will be cast outside, spending eternity in shame. Basically, God gives them over to the inevitable consequences of their sins. Scripture doesn't explicitly mention what will happen, but there's absolutely no hint of physical pain.
I appreciate your answer but you did not address my questions. eg. Will they eat, sleep, have sex, where will they live? will they love, work, sing, dance, act, build etc etc...they must be doing something for eternity right?
No prob, I am jealous I wish I could speak another language as well as you speak English.
Let me add something as well. Hell is the only doctrine that I do not accept from the Protestant faith. I describe myself as reformed evangelical. So am I still a Christian if I reject the doctrine of hell?
You are christian if you believe that Jesus atone for your sins, if you believe that God raised him from the dead and if you live according to this Truth.
Don't let narrow mind people erode your Love for God.
If you believ Jesus spoke the trueth and was God in flesh then I would read what Jesus has to say about hell and how he explaines what is happening to people who go there.
Hell is what Jesus says it is "a lake of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"(excuse my spelling lol)
Dog paddling in the lake of fire for eternity with lava coming out of every available orophous is what the lake of fire means. I have trouble telling people God is love with this doctrine. Imagine in eternity as God thinks about what punishment most of his creation will suffer for all time...I know burn them forever for being born against their will. God is love.
"can you write about what happens in hell that Christians believe they deserve"?
Yes.for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.We have broken Gods laws and as a punnishment he has set a place for those who choose to live in their sins,witch is eternaly seperated from God.
Does he want us to go there?no,it was not meant for us.
Just repent of your sins,except Christ as your personal Lord and savior,walk with him in your daily life.
I am a Christian BUT I have always absolutely despised the putrid evil doctrine of eternal hell. That is sick. How will you enjoy the bliss of heaven while your child or parent is roasting at 320 degrees min OR dog paddling in the lake of fire night and day?
In 14 years I have never heard a sermon on hell because the Minister knows you would throw egs at him and have to answer hard questions.
If the bible teaches eternal hell and not annihilation, then I still will not believe it.
I have looked theological giants in the eye and asked them if they believe in hell (not the exact details of what happens exactly) and they have confirmed they believe it. I am well aware that I am in the minority and that Christians get the idea from the bible and that God has not corrected this view for the last 2000 years. I believe though that a good case can be made for annihilation such as what Stott teaches, but I understand what you are saying.
I made the assumption you were a Protestant, my apologies.
Ok this just gets better....please explain how you can pay money to a Priest and have your time in purgatory reduced or even abolished?
Guess what happens in purgatory folks before going to heaven?...you endure such lovely things as having a red hot poker shoved in your ear hole. yeah right.
I guess at least you finally get to heaven though so I prefer this doctrine than being sent to hell.
I know you dress indulgences up a bit so as not to imply that money can atone for sin...but everybody outside of the Catholic church knows it was a money winner and the unofficial truth...And what should the middles ages have to do with this, did God give you wrong doctrine back then or the truth?
"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous" (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).
Other fathers such as Tertullian, Cyprian of Carthage, Gregory of Nyssa and more
purgatory...and please I have asked you three times now for an answer to this question:
How will you enjoy the bliss of heaven while your children or parents are roasting at 320 degrees min OR dog paddling in the lake of fire night and day?
"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).
How will you enjoy the bliss of heaven while your children or parents are roasting at 320 degrees min OR dog paddling in the lake of fire night and day?
Oh, and its only forever...think of a number and add plenty of 0's.
So first you must understand that God is just and not a person who condemns people.
His love leads to the grace of many who repent.
Yet His righteousness is what judges us ALL. He is our judge, and I really believe that if His judgment is perfect, then people are in hell for a good reason.
@ShaneChiswick, I'll answer the question about enjoying the bliss of Heaven.
You are assuming that those in Hell ought to be pitied.
No one is in Hell who doesn't want to be or needs to be. I do not pity them, if anyone is actually their, which by the way could totally be the case. Yes, that includes Hitler & Judas.
You will be morally perfected in Heaven. You will take an infinite amount of more joy in the knowledge & sight of JUSTICE being done than in pity for early filial loss.
I am not assuming they should be pitied, I am assuming they will be in pain...lots of it and it is only for eternity....how will you enjoy the good life while your child is burning constantly without end?
@ShaneChiswick, from my readings of scripture, the Fathers, and various other theologians I have come to an understanding of Hell that is hard for me to properly articulate.
I don't believe those in Heaven will not feel sorrow for the damned but that their perfect love of truth and justice will infinitely out-measure their emotions of loss.
It can also be the case that you will be purged of your memory of such souls so such questions.
And I again reiterate, those in Hell choose their home.
Again, I know you mean well but cmon the old spiritual amnesia tactic?...yes you would want your memory erased to deal with your loved ones being mutilated. And everybody does NOT knowingly sign a form to volunteer themselves to be mutilated for eternity in hell.
Shane: "How will you enjoy the bliss of heaven while your child or parent is roasting at 320 degrees min OR dog paddling in the lake of fire night and day?" Is this even taught in the Bible? Anyway, I would not be happy that people are in hell if I was in heaven. But I would still have joy. I think happiness and joy are two different things. Also, how is sadness impossible in heaven? I can't imagine God (who is in heaven) would be happy with sin on earth. So why not annihiliate everyone?
Seems to me if you have difficulty with any possibility outside of Annihilationism, a Biblical response would be to pray for wisdom and have faith that God has it all figured out. Or do we throw away our faith because one item we hang our hats on, insignificant when compared to our belief in the resurrection of Christ, seems inconsistent with the picture we have personally painted of the nature of God?
no I have stated on this forum that I understand my position is in the minority. I have been praying for wisdom on this issue for 14 years...It will not happen because the doctrine is putrid and evil.
I think hell is a non salvational issue and I agree about the resurrection.
@ShaneChiswick: Why are you being so insulting? As I said, I can only answer a simple question with a simple answer. If you asked me what one-plus-one equals, I can only answer two. And at least I can answer questions. I answered you. You've been dodging everybodies questions. You haven't even begun to answer me except to insult me and others. Put up or shut up. If you can't, you're trolling.
@ShaneChiswick: U're lying. U did dodge. U asked, "Could you define hell before I reply please". You said "before I reply." That's assuming I had questions (which I did) that you'd respond to. You haven't. And now you've insulted me AGAIN by saying I'm not making any sense especially when you NEVER asked me about what happens in hell! You only asked me to define it. That's all. So don't act dumb. Hell is a place of eternal conscious punishment for sinners. Happy now? I hope to GOD you get it!
I think we're getting off-topic here. This video is about the motivation of hell not the existence of it. However, Dr. Craig does not support annihilationism: watch?v=STaCAr5j0As. Also, look up his debate with Ray Bradley entitled: "CAN A LOVING GOD SEND PEOPLE TO HELL?"
I think Craig is awesome BUt I don't care if he does not believe in annihilation, this is simply an argument from authority. And as for the motivation...lets see, believe in me or burn....no I can't see a problem with that...anybody?
I think you are misunderstanding the reasons people go to hell. Sure belief is a part of it but mostly it has to do with morality/(righteousness in particular) something you can't fully obtain without God.
People go to hell according to most Christians because they are born in sin and if they die in sin (not atoned for by Jesus)nthey go to hell, and that includes all those who never heard of Christ.
@Shane: Dr. Craig didn't make an argument from authority. Listen to the video again. He dealt with the vocabulary and the grammar of scripture. On the other hand when you say "If the bible teaches eternal hell and not annihilation, then I still will not believe it" proves that God's word is not in your best interest. It also proves that using the Bible is practically useless with you. All you've give us so far was your emotions and feelings against hell.
I thought you were saying that Dr Craig believes in eternal hell (which you are and he does) and that is what i meant by appealing to authority. It doesn't matter to me that he believes in hell.
In 14 years as a Christian, Hell is the only doctrine that I have ever said that if the bible teaches it I still will not believe in it.
However I am willing to be corrected in my view that the bible does teaches it.
Do you think maybe God could have come up with a less extreme punishment?
@ShaneChiswick: What? Dr. Craig did NOT make an argument from authority. His only authority is the Bible! Do you have a problem with that? Is God's word not authoritative?
*SIGH* I JUST DID! "Eternal conscious punishment"? Did you not read that? Are you reading these comments? What's with you?! I've answered you over and over and over again. I'm not going to keep playing this game, especially when you said you'd respond to me. Which you obviously haven't and aren't (I hope you prove me wrong by finally answering me). It's obvious, you're a troll. And I don't have time for trolls. What use is it to argue with you? Seriously.
That was a good answer.
MyPhysics101 3 weeks ago
Being a Christian does not mean that you try to live a christian life because you are afraid of Hell. AT ALL. I am not afraid of anything on earth or in heaven. It is my need for absolute Justice and desire to see God and be with the source of all Goodness that is my driving motive. Period. Why most atheists think Christians are little scared narrow-minded immature and ireesponsible"children"?
14margott 3 weeks ago
Was that a girl or a young boy?
MagnusCattus 3 months ago
Sounds like he is saying fear is an absolute good.
veronicats100 4 months ago
Man, William Lane Craig is so awesome.
cowslayer15 4 months ago
Hell is the grave, and the lake of fire at the end of time is the second death.
cornerstone111 5 months ago
What are these short Q&A videos a part of, was it a debate or lecture somewhere? I've not seen them before I don't think.
DigitalDecadence 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Of course...People who accept Jesus as their Lord & Savior have no reason to fear hell cause they're not going there :)
Law19157 7 months ago
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Law19157 7 months ago
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Law19157 7 months ago
this guy is basically saying because your not christian, you dont know or cant know the difference between simple right and wrong thats in a book a guy wrote whilst speaking with an angel talking directly to god... yeah people might have fallen for that a long time ago, but im not going to now...
pyrrhios 11 months ago
@pyrrhios You're an idiot. Listen to his lecture: view_play_list?p=86761B58B16BDF68. He says you can still KNOW what is right or wrong even if you're not a Christian. Would it kill you to try to be fair? Maybe the best thing to do is to unplug your ears while watching the videos, ok?
drcraigvideos 11 months ago 13
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DrCube 4 months ago
@pyrrhios There is something wrong with your comment:
1. He is not saying because your not christian, you don't know or cant know the difference between right and wrong.
2. The Bible is not a book, it's a group of books which were written by more than 40 authors.
3. They did not speak to an angel at all, they were inspired by God to wright the Bible.
Geez, study something before you bear false lies or make fun of it.
flameboy1236 10 months ago 16
@pyrrhios there is no way on earth that that is what he was saying. I am not a Christian but even I can clearly see that in no way did he say, or even imply, what you claim of him.
allan3141 9 months ago 2
Instead of arguing your points that a lot of you haven't researched in depth why not instead watch arguments by high-level debaters like Craig or Hitchens.
I'd like to point out that there are high-level scientists who believe in God as well as those who don't (eg Francis Collins who broke the human genome).
Surely the fact that scientists can become the best in their fields regardless of their religious beliefs implies that religion is an issue for philosophy not science.
remise2 1 year ago
@remise2 no, it's neither. it's an issue of historical inaccuracy. there can be nothing philosophical when its basis is false, because that is a false paradigm.
NORTHERNKONFLIKT 1 year ago
@NORTHERNKONFLIKT And what is the historical inaccuracy?
remise2 1 year ago
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remise2 1 year ago
Christianity is built upon the basis that "god" is stupid, full of biased bigotry, blind to humanitarian values, self-important and so on..
Such a negative portrayal of god is perpertrated by Christians, if there is a real god, he would not be happy with Christians at all ..
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@kkdkk7 I only talk of 8 prophecies, not "thousands". The OT was written hundreds of years before Christ. Yet it says Christ would be born in the town of Bethlehem. That's a prophecy. And he was born in Bethlehem. If 7 more such prophecies prove true, you've got a statistical problem. So pease tell me how this prophecy has been "decimated". I'm really curious.
Typical atheist hypocrisy ! You don't know if God exists, but if ever he does exist, YOU know exaclty what he thinks. That's funny.
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
Again here u are, using the bible to prove the bible ?
..
(.. and I have not even gotten to the problem of interpretation, reliability of the sources etc ..)
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
If Christians can even convincingly prove 1 of the 300 "prophecies" as legitimate, the whole world would be Christian by now .. no , not even a single "miracle" or "prophecy" has passed the test of proper scrutiny up till now, this is truly a demonstration of how weak the claims are ..
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@kkdkk7 "If Christians can even convincingly prove 1 of the 300 "prophecies" as legitimate, the whole world would be Christian by now"
Wrong. Not more nor less would be Christian than are now. You clearly have very little knowledge of biblical teaching.
God is not trying to outdo anyone in the numbers game ! He saves those he wants saved. He brings to repentance those he has chosen from before time.
Men will either bow their knees now before their Saviour, or later before their Judge.
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
What if you're wrong ?
(what if there is a God, a christian-hating one ?)
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@kkdkk7 Simple ! I know God doesn't hate me because I know him.
You speak of what you don't know. I speak of whom I know.
I know what he's like. He's my Father.
He has given me eternal life and saved me from my sins.
I know God personally.
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
Well, my friend next door said the same thing as you except that he is now in a mental hospital talking to himself the whole day, poor thing.
Well I don't know if u r hallucinating or not, but I sure see a lot of problems and inconsistencies with yr christian beliefs aka the bible ..
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
There is such a thing as self-delusion you know ?
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@kkdkk7 You are aware that "guilt by association" is a logical fallacy ?
Here's one for you.
The pharisees accused Jesus of being insane because he said he knew the Father.
Now they know he did.
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
mm.. I did not say that u r guilty of anything, I am merely suspicious that u r self-delusional, thats all..
Quoting the bible as a historical event is what we call "Using the Bible to prove the Bible", why u still don't get it ?
(if a piece of writing is not accepted as a historical material, and yet christians wants to use it as a reference to prove the authenticity of their beliefs, do u not see the problem ? )
..
A boat made of hole-ridden wooden planks will not sail.
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@kkdkk7 In logic "guilt by association" is an invalid argument.
I used the book of Micah. The authenticity of this book was confirmed by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1946. Google it.
Micah told where Jesus would be born. Roman historians Josephus & Tacitus, Govenor Pliny, contemporary rabinnical records, Greek satirist Lucian all talk of Jesus. More historical evidence exists for Jesus than for Julius Caesar.
Where's the problem ? Unless you deny Caesar's existence too ?
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
I see, u r going to throw the same bricks at me that has been thrown for decades by every other apologetics..
Lets put somethings in perspective before u make any further leaps of logic..
(1) Take special note that earliest Torah predates the Dead Sea Scrolls (dss) by about a century.
(2) The dss is more of a passing down of legends told by ancient pple in ancient Judah and it hardly have anything to do with modern Christianity.
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
..
(3) Any so-called prophecies about the coming of Jesus is purely the wishful interpretations of Christian apologetics. For example, Christians wld take "teacher" to be Jesus while any non-Christian wld not make such an unfounded assumption.
..
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
..
Now, on to the historians..
(1) JOSEPHUS - this historian's writing has been so obviously and amatuerishly altered by the dirty hands of the early Christian Church that it was never even quoted by the Church as an evidence for Jesus' historicity for fear of being exposed as an altered text.
..
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
..
(2) TACITUS - the same suspicion as that of Jospehus - highly probable that Tacitus' original manuscript was altered and destroyed by the Church's "professional" scribes who later proclaimed the fake edited versions as Tacitus' works.
..
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
..
(3) LUCIAN - this person is born more than 100 years later than Jesus, need I say more ? Obviously many pple would have heard of the legends of Christianity by then so its not surprising that Jesus's name would surface in a few literatures by then in the form of hearsay accounts.. furthermore Lucian failed to provide the sources of his informations about Christianity so he could well have gathered his infos from any non-reliable non-qualified sources..
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
..
PLINY - also born more than 100yrs later than Jesus's time - should I spend time repeating the same things I said about Lucian, you already get the gist i hope ?
..
SO how do u suppose I can even accept those "miracles" when I can't even be sure your about the validity of your so-called "proofs" of historicity ?
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@kkdkk7 You're not seriously claiming that Jesus of Nazareth never existed are you ? That it's all just a big hoax ? A big world-wide 2 thousand year-old conspiracy ?
Wow you're paranoid.
I've got a friend who believes the same thing and now he sleeps in a padded cell.
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
I am not saying that Jesus never existed or that Christianity must be a hoax..
I am just saying that for more than 2000 years it is very very strange that no Christian has ever presented any thing that can prove the Christian claims beyond the reasonable doubts, whether its a hoax is just one possible reason for this strangeness - just like how no one has ever proven the magical Santa or pink unicon or Zeus..
I am simply saying don't base your actions on unfounded beliefs..
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
Repeat - millions of believers, thousands of years of popularity and yet not a shred of convincing proof raised by a single person, why ?
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
You must understand the more ancient the beliefs the more grounds to doubt its validity due to ancient pple being more gullible, less educated, less archival technology to verify things, no voice/video recorders, word of mouth sensationalism, dubious historical and political interests at work etc etc.
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@kkdkk7
Until a few decades ago everyone believed matter to be eternal.
Only the bible said it was created. Scientists mocked the bible for being uneducated, gullible, ancient, etc.
Then cosmologists came up with the Big Bang theory. Now everyone accepts that matter, energy, time & space had a beginning. Looks like uneducated Moses took Einstein to school !
Talking of fairy tales, don't you believe a frog can turn into a prince ? Now that's very educated, very sophisticated indeed !
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
The Big Bang theory did not make any assertion that matter engergy time and space had a beginning, who told you that ?
It simply says that the universe seems to be expanding, but it does not make any assumption on whether everything was "conceived" roughly 14 billion years ago, it merely says that there was a time when the universe was a lot denser than right now, going further back is not an impossibility but its not what the theory is currently dealing with ..
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
The association of Big Bang theory with a beginning of the universe is just another strawman argument made by Christians like u who thinks that saying so will help you during a debate - but it never was an assertion of the Big Bang theory.
This kind of association is only made by someone who is not sincerely having an honest discusion but by someone whose only aim in talking is to win a debate at all means..
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
By the way, why are Christians so scattered in their interpretations of the bible ?
..
One group says the Big Bang is bullshit, the the world was created in roughly a few thousand years, Another group says god created the Big Bang .. Is it because the Bible is too ambigous in its wordings ?
Can the Bible be considered to be perfect when it can eaily be misinterpreted to mean anything you want it to be ?
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@kkdkk7 1. So when cosmologists say our universe is about 14 billion years old, they're not saying it had a beginning ? Now that's logical !
2. 4000 years ago the bible said the universe had a beginning. For centuries scientists contradicted it. Today the bible is shown to be right.
3. Your misinterpretation of the bible is not a sign of its imperfection. It's a sign of your sinfulness and of God's mercy towards you. After death even you will recognize its perfection.
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
Now, this is where u need to learn more about the methodology of human science and history -
..
TIME
Time is an academic concept created by man for ease of relative referencing between different points in the past, present and even the future..
.. .. it DOES NOT attempt to say if there is a beginning, it merely says how long have transpired since a certain REFERENCE POINT of event in the past.
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
..
The Big Bang (BB) is merely that event which scientists used as a reference point.
..
Whether the universe or something else existed before Big Bang, since scientists does not have any scientific EVIDENCE that can throw light on the pre-BigBang events, they simply say they have no idea. They don't behave like u or other Christians who baselessly say that there was nothing before 14billion years ago without evidence. They r a lot more down-to-earth and less fluffy.
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
14billion years is just a measure of how long it has been since BB till now, get it ?
(You don't seem to have a concept of "I don't know" in your mental makeup, it just seems to me that a lot of Christians when faced with something they don't know just make baseless assumptions, thats arrogance. Scientists r much more humble, down to earth and honest than that.)
kkdkk7 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kkdkk7 "Time is an academic concept created by man"
That's got to be just about the stupidest statement on Youtube !
So that means before man, time didn't exist.
And YOU said the bible writers were uneducated !
Got logic ?
14dicken 1 year ago
Why should a sinful person be punished FOREVER in hell instead of punished for a finite time in hell until he really learns his mistakes ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 Because he never learns his mistakes. Sinners sin, that's what they do.
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
Well, how would u know if a person will or will not learn their mistakes ?
Seriously how would anyone be sure if a person will stay a certain way forever ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 Learning from one's mistakes is called repentance in the bible : being sorry for one's actions, stopping them and living a good life.
Repentance is possible only on this earth. Once we die it is impossible to repent. How come ?
Because repentance is a gift from God. Those in hell are under God's wrath and can therefore never repent. That's why we must do it now, while there's time.
Now you know, you have no excuse, so do it now, before it's too late !
Repent & believe the gospel.
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
How r u so sure that a person in the afterlife cannot have the ability to reflect on his previous mistakes ?
I mean, how are u so sure about all these afterlife claims u make ?
I mean, another person could be also very sure that the opposite of what u say is true - that a soul in the afterlife can in fact reflect and learn from his earthly mistakes - SO, how do I know who is right when 2 persons of the opposite views sound so self-assured ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 "how do I know who is right ?"
Good question. I think your question is how do I know the bible is true. If the bible is the word of God, that changes everything.
Here's just 1 reason I believe it is.
The old testament contains about 300 prophecies concerning Jesus. All were fulfilled by him.
The probability that 1 man fulfil only 8 of them is 1 to 100 000 000 000 000 000 (that's one hundred million billion !)
It's statistically impossible that the bible is not the word of God.
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
My friend uuduu7 has been blocked out by the creator of this video, I am not sure why.. he was not rude or anything like that so perhaps he is blocked for fear that his words are too persuasive and intolerable for the agenda of this video creator..
..
Anyway let me respond on his behalf to yr claim that "300 prophecies concerning Jesus. All were fulfilled..."
This is a pretty "old" self-proclamation by Christians, its what we call "using the bible to prove the bible" .. Get it?
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@kkdkk7 No, it's what we call using maths to prove the bible. Got it ?
14dicken 1 year ago
@14dicken
Do u really think all throughout history, all the scientists and historians would conspire to deny the authenticity of the bible ?
The problem with your claims of hundreds and thousands of fulfilled prophecies is that none are taken from objective sources, if u bring up those "prohecies" one by one - one by one each claim have been decimated by mere scrutiny of the various disciplines of verification, Sorry..
kkdkk7 1 year ago
@14dicken
Repentence is a concept that existed thousands of years way before the bible was around, the Bible did not invent that concept ..
uuduu7 1 year ago
Of course there's a right and wrong within atheism! Dr Craig appears to be playing word games here!
mythicalhell 1 year ago
The fact remains that the Bible states those that do not believe in Jesus as the Savior are going to hell. Therefore, the scare tactic is there. Why? How can God be justified in condemning humans to eternal suffering when God forced humans into this so-called life.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey, Hell denotes the relationship of one's soul & character to the Holiness of God. In truth, no one is condemned except by themselves.
Heaven and hell may be the very same objective place—namely God's love, experienced oppositely by opposite souls. The fires of hell maybe made of the very love of God, experienced as torture by those who hate him: the very light of God's truth, hated and fled from in vain by those who love darkness.
wood9670 1 year ago
@wood9670 "It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."
Of course there are those that say hell is not eternal on the basis of this passage: "Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
No matter what, its an eternal punishment for a finite "crime". Why should I have to suffer all these years just to be destroyed in the end?
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey, Read Rev. 16. 8-11, 21 where the damned in Hell "cursed the name of God... and did not repent of their deeds. "
To hate and reject God is to sin, for we are morally obligated to worship and love God. Sin cannot go unpunished, since God is perfectly just, and so these sins in the afterlife must also be punished. Hence, because sinning goes on forever, so does the punishment. So even if I concede that every sin deserves only a finite punishment, hell is unceasingly self-perpetuating.
wood9670 1 year ago
@wood9670 My point is that none of us asked to be born. It was forced upon us. We signed no contract. We are not obligated to worship or love God. Yet I am still forced to work my butt off for little reward in this life. It would be unfair to punish me further in the hereafter.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey, I don't understand your point. Are you honestly saying that you wished that you never existed?
wood9670 1 year ago
@wood9670 Indeed! Those never conceived are the lucky ones.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@wood9670 I didn't realize my previous post would be a show-stopper. I thought I might point out that there is a biblical analogy to my sentiments. Mark 14:21 "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
What do you make of that passage?
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey, well I didn't know how to or see the point in responding to a person who sincerely desires oblivion. I think that passage in Mark is addressing the punishment of an unrepentant Judas in Hell or the purification of a repentant Judas in purgatory.
wood9670 1 year ago
@wood9670 Are you suggesting Jesus doesn't have any words of wisdom for me? And which is it, hell or purgatory? Seems to me it would have to be hell since the bible says it would be better had he not been born. If its just purgatory, that's not so bad, is it? One just has to do some purgatory and then into heaven. I'll take that over hell. Plus, was what Judas did really that bad? Someone had to do it. It was prophesied. If he didn't do it, then what?
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey, Jesus might have some words of wisdom for you but their is no guarantee that you would except them & in any case I am not privy to them so yeah. I can't help you if you truly want oblivion.
And Judas is most likely is in Hell but I was taking the charitable route & suggested Purgatory because its never wise to presume to know the limits of God's mercy.
If Judas hadn't have betrayed JC the Pharisees still would have had him arrested somehow, this does not mitigate Judas' culpability.
wood9670 1 year ago
@wood9670 That's rather disappointing.
Consider again, Judas did not ask to be born. Life was forced upon him by his parent's decision. Do you really think its fair for Judas to spend eternity in hell for his "crime"? Indeed, wouldn't it have been better had he never been born?
And what of the Pharisee's? Should they not be in hell too? And again, the Pharisee's didn't ask to be born. Do you think any of us would take the chance of being born when we know the odds are against us?
AnnRKey 1 year ago
Yep god's love but if you don't love him then hell awaits you.
HonestTechnoAtheist 1 year ago
@HonestTechnoAtheist Uh, yeah, I guess the perfect logical thing to do is to let someone who doesn't even love Him into heaven then. I guess that's suppose to be genuine love by your definition?
drcraigvideos 1 year ago
@drcraigvideos He could make a secondary heaven for non christians. Or just erase them after they die. But no an omniscient god can't think of anything better than eternal torture.
HonestTechnoAtheist 1 year ago
@HonestTechnoAtheist Uh, yeah, He couldn't think of a better thing to do that's why He's told his creatures how they can avoid hell anyway. That's so unloving of Him! A second heaven... erace them? Which one do you want? Why is it so hard for you to grasp the concept of hell and heaven? Hell is the consequences of not having a relationship with God. If I told someone if they jump off a cliff the consequence is that they'll fall down to their death, does that make me responsible? Think about it.
drcraigvideos 1 year ago
@drcraigvideos "that's why he told his creatures how to avoid hell anyways"
Yep all they have to do is abandon their ability of rational thought that he gave them and acknowledge that he screwed up and rather than go back and fix his mistake or just forgive the sins he just sends a copy of himself to die. Jumping off of a cliff is only a one time thing and if you did that it is all over. But hell is an eternal punishment. And I have grasped the concept of heaven and hell.
HonestTechnoAtheist 1 year ago
@HonestTechnoAtheist LOL! And heaven is a one time thing that lasts forever. You're one to talk about irrationality. You think it's unfair of God to send people to hell when he's given them ample opportunity to avoid it. Then you say to do that would be irrational, because that would mean they have to believe in God. But then again you think it's rational to send people to heaven when they don't even believe in God. How obtuse can you be?
drcraigvideos 1 year ago
@drcraigvideos They are good evidence that christianity is man made.
HonestTechnoAtheist 1 year ago
@HonestTechnoAtheist That's not the topic of this video. Besides, you don't think atheism is man-made? I mean, duh!
drcraigvideos 1 year ago
@HonestTechnoAtheist Not only could god have made a second heaven for non-believers if he chose to but try to wrap this around your head, a skeptic who just couldn't come to believe in the existence of a god due to the lack of hard evidence not only is damed to hell but is found guilty enough(even though no crime was committed)to be torchered no less for an ETERNITY(NEVER ENDING)!! This hell business seems VERY man made to me OR if not then god is an evil prick!
mythicalhell 1 year ago
Christians don't fear hell because we know we deserve hell. It is through Jesus and by grace that we are saved. Even if there was no heaven we'd still do what is right.
Sean2112bd 2 years ago
You seem to be speaking for all Christians. Can you write about what happens in hell that Christians believe they deserve?
ShaneChiswick 1 year ago
@ShaneChiswick
What you need to understand it hell was not created for us but for satan and the fallen angels,Jesus Christ is our salvation and wants nothing less than to see all go to heaven.
"born against their will"?God designed you knite you in your mothers womb and has a plane for each of us,and its not "hell" but to walk with God and do his will.
bluevaines 1 year ago
@ShaneChiswick
You shouldn't have a problem telling people God is love with the doctrine of hell,because God has given us a way to avoid hell,God sent his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins and by the blood of Christ we are saved if you except what he did for you,know you are a sinner and repent andExcept Christ into your heart.
God did the hard part that no one els could do and no one els was holy enough.He died for all our sins...God is love.
bluevaines 1 year ago
@TheEcumenator
I have asked you this question 4 time now and you have indicated that you will answer me.
How will you enjoy the bliss of heaven while your child or parent is roasting at 320 degrees min OR dog paddling in the lake of fire night and day?
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
Shane, God is Just and He will give anyone what he deserves.
My parents are agnostics but they are what we colud say "good people"; they help averyone and are kind, howeverrrrrrrr.... they sin and their souls can't rest in Heaven so if there could be siners in Heaven the Heaven woluldn't be Heaven.
They can't be in Heaven, but they won't be treated as rapists so -as I told you- God is Just.
6qrents 2 years ago
I have been a Christian for 14 years and in that time I have heard every different approach to eternal hell. I sometimes want somebody to come up with something new to blow me away, but it aint gonna happen. Let me put it the best way I know of. Would you allow your children to come into the world knowing they were destined for eternal hell?....didn't think so,...but God does according to the doctrine of eternal hell. I suspect not enough people truly think through the doctrine.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
Sh: "Would you allow your children to come into the world knowing they were destined for eternal hell?"
No, I wouldn't, however, I told you, God is Just and He's just going to condemn to suffering to those who Deserve hell, that's it, rapists, killers, and so on...
Brother, Hell is the Eternal Separation from God after dead, but God is not going to pay everyone the same way 'cause if so, God wouldnt be Just.
6qrents 2 years ago
many people opt for the belief that in hell there will be degrees of punishment (no pun intended) so the scale will be from sitting around the pool drinking cocktails to Hitler and Sadam Insane copping the rough end of the pineapple daily. Do you believe in the lake of fire?
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
Sa, "Do you believe in the lake of fire? "
To be honest: No...
I think that God employs this kind of images to make us understad what our simple minds are unable to grasp.
But I could be wrong...
6qrents 2 years ago
I find it interesting that although most Christians believe in eternal hell and given the fact that most of humanity will be booking into hell, that no Christian wants to or can outline what will be happening in hell for eternity. This is just a thought and not directed at you. Christians tend to just waffle with general statements like God is just and degrees of punishment etc etc but every now and again you get the fire and brimstone type of Christian that loves a good sinners BBQ in hell.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
Shane,
The language used in the Bible to describe hell consists of Jewish metaphors for shame. There is no literal lake of fire. It works like this: God, as the ground of all being, is the standard of goodness. With every sin that we commit, we fall more and more from that standard. You naturally experience a certain amount of shame depending on how far from that standard of goodness you ended up. Thus, people in hell will forever feel whatever as much shame as they inflicted upon themselves.
fmu93 1 year ago
I am gladto hear you believe there is no literal lake of fire.
Can you go through the logistics involved in your model?
Will they eat, sleep, have sex, where will they live? will they love, work, sing, dance, act, build etc etc...your model sounds like a vacation to Hawaii where it rained the whole time. Can you be specific please?
ShaneChiswick 1 year ago
Shane,
First, it's not "my" model; it's the Biblical model. The punishment will be directly proportional to the shame the sinner deserves via his sins. Unbelievers will be resurrected, but they will not be permitted to enter the New Jerusalem of glory, but instead will be cast outside, spending eternity in shame. Basically, God gives them over to the inevitable consequences of their sins. Scripture doesn't explicitly mention what will happen, but there's absolutely no hint of physical pain.
fmu93 1 year ago
I appreciate your answer but you did not address my questions. eg. Will they eat, sleep, have sex, where will they live? will they love, work, sing, dance, act, build etc etc...they must be doing something for eternity right?
ShaneChiswick 1 year ago
I apologize for my English, I'm catalan speaker...
6qrents 2 years ago
No prob, I am jealous I wish I could speak another language as well as you speak English.
Let me add something as well. Hell is the only doctrine that I do not accept from the Protestant faith. I describe myself as reformed evangelical. So am I still a Christian if I reject the doctrine of hell?
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
You are christian if you believe that Jesus atone for your sins, if you believe that God raised him from the dead and if you live according to this Truth.
Don't let narrow mind people erode your Love for God.
God bless you brother.
6qrents 2 years ago
Thank you. I know that hell is not a salvational issue.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
@ShaneChiswick
If you believ Jesus spoke the trueth and was God in flesh then I would read what Jesus has to say about hell and how he explaines what is happening to people who go there.
Hell is what Jesus says it is "a lake of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"(excuse my spelling lol)
bluevaines 1 year ago
Dog paddling in the lake of fire for eternity with lava coming out of every available orophous is what the lake of fire means. I have trouble telling people God is love with this doctrine. Imagine in eternity as God thinks about what punishment most of his creation will suffer for all time...I know burn them forever for being born against their will. God is love.
ShaneChiswick 1 year ago
@ShaneChiswick
"can you write about what happens in hell that Christians believe they deserve"?
Yes.for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.We have broken Gods laws and as a punnishment he has set a place for those who choose to live in their sins,witch is eternaly seperated from God.
Does he want us to go there?no,it was not meant for us.
Just repent of your sins,except Christ as your personal Lord and savior,walk with him in your daily life.
bluevaines 1 year ago
You didn't answer my question
ShaneChiswick 1 year ago
Awesome! I love how Craig is able to answer questions such as these at a professional level. :)
jonathanfater 2 years ago 5
I am a Christian BUT I have always absolutely despised the putrid evil doctrine of eternal hell. That is sick. How will you enjoy the bliss of heaven while your child or parent is roasting at 320 degrees min OR dog paddling in the lake of fire night and day?
In 14 years I have never heard a sermon on hell because the Minister knows you would throw egs at him and have to answer hard questions.
If the bible teaches eternal hell and not annihilation, then I still will not believe it.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
Well you probably are wrong and every person who denies it.
The early Church affirmed Hell and Christ Himself affirmed Hell.
There is really no doubt on that issue.
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
I have looked theological giants in the eye and asked them if they believe in hell (not the exact details of what happens exactly) and they have confirmed they believe it. I am well aware that I am in the minority and that Christians get the idea from the bible and that God has not corrected this view for the last 2000 years. I believe though that a good case can be made for annihilation such as what Stott teaches, but I understand what you are saying.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
You are simply picking and chosing doctrine.
That in itself has no truth behind it.
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
Did you miss this bit?
'I believe though that a good case can be made for annihilation such as what Stott teaches'
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
What Stott teaches?
He is not the Church Fathers neither the Apostles, neither Christ Himself, is he?
So why would I listen to some heretic?
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
I was giving you an example of the doctrine of annihilation. Is truth decided by majority vote or by addressing and analysing the scriptures?
For the first 1500 years out of 2000 the church taught purgatory....do you believe that rubbish? If not your argument crumbles.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
Of course I believe in purgatory!
The early Church fathers professed it AND its biblical.
you say for the first 1500 years the church tought purgatory, It still does!
Men change doctrine into their own way and make a new religion. God established the truth and revealed it through His church.
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
I made the assumption you were a Protestant, my apologies.
Ok this just gets better....please explain how you can pay money to a Priest and have your time in purgatory reduced or even abolished?
Guess what happens in purgatory folks before going to heaven?...you endure such lovely things as having a red hot poker shoved in your ear hole. yeah right.
I guess at least you finally get to heaven though so I prefer this doctrine than being sent to hell.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
erm. and indulgence is not just paying someone and do you actually think we are somehow in the middle ages?
You seemed to somehow ignore the fact that hell exists and just jumped on to another point...
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
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sure lets talk hell,,,,can u please answer this:
How will you enjoy the bliss of heaven while your child or parent is roasting at 320 degrees min OR dog paddling in the lake of fire night and day?
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
I know you dress indulgences up a bit so as not to imply that money can atone for sin...but everybody outside of the Catholic church knows it was a money winner and the unofficial truth...And what should the middles ages have to do with this, did God give you wrong doctrine back then or the truth?
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
truth and it has never changed.
The thing is that when you give the right things to the wrong people, they will manipulate it.
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
name one Church Father that speaks about purgatory? I've read them all and I have never come to any idea of purgatory once
smartwarlord 2 years ago
"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous" (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).
Other fathers such as Tertullian, Cyprian of Carthage, Gregory of Nyssa and more
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
I love how you quote APOCRYPHAL FORGERYS to back up your claims.
And no, Tertullian never even alludes to such a place.
smartwarlord 2 years ago
Apocryphal forgeries, really?
According to who?
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
This is called 'appealing to authority'
Forget church Fathers and go to the bible...chapter and verse please.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
for hell or purgatory?
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
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purgatory...and please I have asked you three times now for an answer to this question:
How will you enjoy the bliss of heaven while your children or parents are roasting at 320 degrees min OR dog paddling in the lake of fire night and day?
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
Also Augustine:
"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
Hell is a denial of God, people who are in Hell, are there because they want to be there.
TheEcumenator 2 years ago 6
Answer this question please.
How will you enjoy the bliss of heaven while your children or parents are roasting at 320 degrees min OR dog paddling in the lake of fire night and day?
Oh, and its only forever...think of a number and add plenty of 0's.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
Answer this first.
How do you enjoy denying the truth in order to seek some idea which comforts you? Hell is not an invention. Christ talks about it all the time.
Satan betrayed God and sent himself down to hell. All his followers end up in damnation.
I think you are assuming that everyone goes to hell
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
Play fair I asked you the question first.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
ok,
So first you must understand that God is just and not a person who condemns people.
His love leads to the grace of many who repent.
Yet His righteousness is what judges us ALL. He is our judge, and I really believe that if His judgment is perfect, then people are in hell for a good reason.
TheEcumenator 2 years ago
You didn't answer my question though.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
@ShaneChiswick, I'll answer the question about enjoying the bliss of Heaven.
You are assuming that those in Hell ought to be pitied.
No one is in Hell who doesn't want to be or needs to be. I do not pity them, if anyone is actually their, which by the way could totally be the case. Yes, that includes Hitler & Judas.
You will be morally perfected in Heaven. You will take an infinite amount of more joy in the knowledge & sight of JUSTICE being done than in pity for early filial loss.
wood9670 2 years ago
I am not assuming they should be pitied, I am assuming they will be in pain...lots of it and it is only for eternity....how will you enjoy the good life while your child is burning constantly without end?
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
@ShaneChiswick, from my readings of scripture, the Fathers, and various other theologians I have come to an understanding of Hell that is hard for me to properly articulate.
I don't believe those in Heaven will not feel sorrow for the damned but that their perfect love of truth and justice will infinitely out-measure their emotions of loss.
It can also be the case that you will be purged of your memory of such souls so such questions.
And I again reiterate, those in Hell choose their home.
wood9670 2 years ago
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Again, I know you mean well but cmon the old spiritual amnesia tactic?...yes you would want your memory erased to deal with your loved ones being mutilated. And everybody does NOT knowingly sign a form to volunteer themselves to be mutilated for eternity in hell.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
yeah right....everybody knowingly signs a form volunteering themselves to be mutilated for eternity in hell.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
neglect is their signature.
lockdown260 2 years ago
Shane: "How will you enjoy the bliss of heaven while your child or parent is roasting at 320 degrees min OR dog paddling in the lake of fire night and day?" Is this even taught in the Bible? Anyway, I would not be happy that people are in hell if I was in heaven. But I would still have joy. I think happiness and joy are two different things. Also, how is sadness impossible in heaven? I can't imagine God (who is in heaven) would be happy with sin on earth. So why not annihiliate everyone?
bibleapologetics 2 years ago
Could you define hell before I reply please
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
@Shane: Eternal damnation.
bibleapologetics 2 years ago
This is like trying to extract teeth...are we talking Hawaii or what? what do you mean, be specific please
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
@ShaneChiswick: I can only answer a simple question with a simple answer. What more do you want?
bibleapologetics 2 years ago
You call yourself bibleapologetcis and that is your intelligent response to my question?
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
Seems to me if you have difficulty with any possibility outside of Annihilationism, a Biblical response would be to pray for wisdom and have faith that God has it all figured out. Or do we throw away our faith because one item we hang our hats on, insignificant when compared to our belief in the resurrection of Christ, seems inconsistent with the picture we have personally painted of the nature of God?
trafferazabu 2 years ago
no I have stated on this forum that I understand my position is in the minority. I have been praying for wisdom on this issue for 14 years...It will not happen because the doctrine is putrid and evil.
I think hell is a non salvational issue and I agree about the resurrection.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
my spelling sucks...I need to take more time when I write...is this why I am getting thumbs down???
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
@ShaneChiswick: Why are you being so insulting? As I said, I can only answer a simple question with a simple answer. If you asked me what one-plus-one equals, I can only answer two. And at least I can answer questions. I answered you. You've been dodging everybodies questions. You haven't even begun to answer me except to insult me and others. Put up or shut up. If you can't, you're trolling.
bibleapologetics 2 years ago
Apologies if I have offended you..
I am not aware of one question I have dodged.
Your answer makes no sense though, it only tells me you believe hell is eternal...give me details of what happens in hell.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
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@ShaneChiswick: U're lying. U did dodge. U asked, "Could you define hell before I reply please". You said "before I reply." That's assuming I had questions (which I did) that you'd respond to. You haven't. And now you've insulted me AGAIN by saying I'm not making any sense especially when you NEVER asked me about what happens in hell! You only asked me to define it. That's all. So don't act dumb. Hell is a place of eternal conscious punishment for sinners. Happy now? I hope to GOD you get it!
bibleapologetics 2 years ago
@bibleapologetics, their is also righteous anger in Heaven.
The saints in Revelation are seen asking God of when the day will come when their martyrdom's will be vindicated.
wood9670 2 years ago
@wood9670: Good point! Thanks.
bibleapologetics 2 years ago
I think we're getting off-topic here. This video is about the motivation of hell not the existence of it. However, Dr. Craig does not support annihilationism: watch?v=STaCAr5j0As. Also, look up his debate with Ray Bradley entitled: "CAN A LOVING GOD SEND PEOPLE TO HELL?"
drcraigvideos 2 years ago
I think Craig is awesome BUt I don't care if he does not believe in annihilation, this is simply an argument from authority. And as for the motivation...lets see, believe in me or burn....no I can't see a problem with that...anybody?
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
I think you are misunderstanding the reasons people go to hell. Sure belief is a part of it but mostly it has to do with morality/(righteousness in particular) something you can't fully obtain without God.
lockdown260 2 years ago
read all my posts.
People go to hell according to most Christians because they are born in sin and if they die in sin (not atoned for by Jesus)nthey go to hell, and that includes all those who never heard of Christ.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
@Shane: Dr. Craig didn't make an argument from authority. Listen to the video again. He dealt with the vocabulary and the grammar of scripture. On the other hand when you say "If the bible teaches eternal hell and not annihilation, then I still will not believe it" proves that God's word is not in your best interest. It also proves that using the Bible is practically useless with you. All you've give us so far was your emotions and feelings against hell.
drcraigvideos 2 years ago
I thought you were saying that Dr Craig believes in eternal hell (which you are and he does) and that is what i meant by appealing to authority. It doesn't matter to me that he believes in hell.
In 14 years as a Christian, Hell is the only doctrine that I have ever said that if the bible teaches it I still will not believe in it.
However I am willing to be corrected in my view that the bible does teaches it.
Do you think maybe God could have come up with a less extreme punishment?
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
@ShaneChiswick: What? Dr. Craig did NOT make an argument from authority. His only authority is the Bible! Do you have a problem with that? Is God's word not authoritative?
bibleapologetics 2 years ago
I thought that I was being directed to the fact that Dr Craig belived in hell...and I said so what, that is an argument from authority.
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
Gods word is authorative and I believe it teaches punishment then annihilation.
Could you tell me what the bible teaches about what happens in hell for eternity?
ShaneChiswick 2 years ago
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bibleapologetics 2 years ago
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*SIGH* I JUST DID! "Eternal conscious punishment"? Did you not read that? Are you reading these comments? What's with you?! I've answered you over and over and over again. I'm not going to keep playing this game, especially when you said you'd respond to me. Which you obviously haven't and aren't (I hope you prove me wrong by finally answering me). It's obvious, you're a troll. And I don't have time for trolls. What use is it to argue with you? Seriously.
bibleapologetics 2 years ago