On the edge with Max Keiser /09 /18 /2009 /Part3

[terfle1106]

I just love the clash of inflated ego's between christo930 and Dean0000007 !!

[christo930]

I only made 2 posts and neither one of them were directed at dean000007!?!?

[terfle1106]

Yes, well maybe i made a mistake on the names. Appologies bro.

[christo930]

Forgiving the debt would be an awesome idea, but it creates a huge moral hazard. If my neighbors who bought more house than they can afford get to stop paying their mortgage and get their house for free, why should I have to keep paying my mortgage? Ultimately though, he's right: this debt has to be liquidated.

[terfle1106]

christo930 I agree. At the base level, it seems to me that our civilisation since the early 50', has progressively bassed itself on greed habits. normaly, if you dont have the money you can't have what you want. You should then "save" to get what you want, and not get credit (money which does not belong to you in the first place) to feed your "greed". What is really happening is, to my way of thinking, commi,g to gripps with "international greed". We must annulate debt, no other way out !

[christo930]

The bulk of our problems started with 2 things which were very major and happened at the same time:

America's peak oil production

Abandoning the gold standard

Ever since these 2 events we have been living in an inflationary credit bubble. With credit cut off, we have to spend large amounts of current wealth on previous spending and rebuilding savings (since it's harder to rely on credit for a rainy day).

[terfle1106]

The essentielly you advocate the credit systeme (as you put the blame on other things not associated to mass global financial psychology). What you mentioned seem on the nail to me, but these are only the mechanical effects of global greed psychology. I know it's hard to admit that we must get rid of our credit based civilisation, but what else can we do. You got any ideas ?!?!

[christo930]

True credit comes from savings, not from inflation. When society under-consumes and saves, business people take the saved money (at interest) and invest it in new productive capacity which makes society richer. What we do is inflate the money supply and use the new money (at interest) to consume. Consuming doesn't create new wealth and the interest isn't created which is why we perpetually need to grow or there isn't enough liquidity in the system to service the debt.

[terfle1106]

christo930 : I get the point and i can understant perfectly what you're getting at. I have allways felt that getting credit is not a good affaire. It's having money that has not as yet been earned. Our civilisation can not go forward on the ideal of "having what is not earned". This is why things are so bad today. here in France we sat "se vend pas la peau de l'ourse avent de l'avoir tué"... you can't sell a bear skin before you've killed the bear.

[terfle1106]

(suite) .... Credit may come from savings, however from a stricktly earnings point of view, it's still "having something without having earned it". Therefor, the whole credit system is basically immoral. Money and morality (ideals) should at least go hand in hand.

[terfle1106]

Can you imagin a world where everyone baught and sold only what thier pay chexk allowed for ? It would'nt be anything like what we know today. I think it would be more peacefull and in better equillibrium. We might not need a whole bunch of junk we depend on nowerdays. Sorry for the typing errors in the last two messages bro. Back to you !

[terfle1106]

One thing more. People try to live with what their pay check does'nt allow them to sustain. The US economy from top to bottom (and world wide today) tries to play arround with finance in order to "do no work and have a good time". There was a time when the value of work and " workmanship" matched up with what you got payed. Too many greedy bastards on the planet make for a world in anguish, would'nt you agree ?

[christo930]

I disagree with him especially on prices. Prices are going up and some prices are falling far slower than they aught to be. All of the things we buy are going up, it's assets that are falling or not rising. For example. real-estate is falling much slower than it should and that is a result of the gov propping up housing prices, by making everything else more expensive. Prices across the board should be falling, not rising. HC, food, energy, clothing, consumer goods etc are all rising.

[BringBackCapitalism]

He's Right. Are you deleveraging? I am, and I prepared for a major recession (just not a depression).

[sakura936]

those who make money by just having money are call parasites.banks lend money they don't have but if the money is not repaid they take your propriety.if the bank has 1000 dollars it has the right to lend 10,000 dollars or more,and where this money come from? out of thin air.this system of credit is practice all over the world and will ultimate collapse.if all debt was paid it will be no money,the economy of the world runs on debt.

[sujajajjaakakajjs]

bank can't create money from thin air so...

[sakura936]

yeah whatever

[prescottbill]

"When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes... Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."

- Napoleon Bonaparte, 1815

Government is not in control of the economy, banksters used this to consolidate power. They are bigger now, than before the crisis. Goldman Sachs got rid of Lehman Bros.

[TruthAxe]

While Steve Keen has some of it right, he confuses inflation with debasement and deflation with devaluation.

Inflation and deflation are purpose-driven processes undertaken by central bankers. When central bankers decrease interbank lending rates or reduce reserve requirements, they inflate. When they do the opposite, they deflate.

When govt accretes into circulation new notes and coins, politicians debase money.

When more debtors default and others buy fewer assets, they devalue.

[gosciu555]

Well politicians don't have control of the money supply in the US.

Second aren't those two the same?

[prescottbill]

Truth or Dean, this is the problem I see with Keen and other deflationist.

Say I bought a new home for $500K in 2006 with a nothing down mortgage. The bank creates $500K credit (sells to FNM), that $500K goes to the builder who pays off a construction loan of $300K and puts $200K in his pocket to spend or build more homes. I default on the mortgage, bank gets the home sells for $300K. Where is the deflation in that scenario? The $500k is still out there in the system.

[TruthAxe]

Deflation happened awhile ago, when Bernanke took over and raised the Fed Funds Rate in step fashion.

Deflation and inflation and purposeful acts undertaken by central bankers.

Too often, dummies confuse cause with effect. Thus, these dummies confuse inflation and deflation with price appreciation or depreciation / devaluation, economic expansion or compression.

Price depreciation is here. Accretion of money (notes, coins) is here. New credit growth is not here. New output is not here.

[TruthAxe]

However, that accretion is going to push prices of some things much higher.

As long as credit does not exist for cash renting, prices for houses, construction labor and the like shall fall or remain flat.

We might think prices for cruises and airline tix would fall too. However, other factors come into play for such, like diesel and jet fuel.

Prices for medicine -- drugs, hospital stays, ops -- shall rise as long as a cartel and govt involvement exists.

[Martian74]

The premise you use is too simple and doesn't relate to reality. How much tax does the builder pay on his $200K, probably around $50k? The government uses the $50K to buy a missile (or fuel etc.) to use in Afghanistan and blows it up resulting in a lot less money. The bank loses $200K on the loan but still has to pay it's employees so it loses a lot more than $200K. Multiply the $200K loss for the bank by 1 million homes and the banks have lost quite a lot. Even this is too simple though.

[condorito29]

that was a very, very interesting video.

I should have studied economics back in school.

oh well.

the global economy will collapse, and the shit will hit the fan.

I hate to say it folks, but I think the probable outcome of this will be:

"for nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will famines and earthquakes in various places."

an utterly destroyed global economy leads to wars and famines, folks. NO WAY OUT.

if you see earthquakes, PRAY.

[jd603]

He is also trying to compare japan, when their citizens had savings and they are a large creditor nation, america is in debt to all other countries. This guy is flat out wrong and its too bad keiser is going to lose credibility over this thing.

[jd603]

still wrong about inflation. ... sort of... even if they were correct about inflation/deflation, the falling dollar will lead to higher prices of global goods/commodities/energy and services,, so the effect will be the same. Not to mention when foreigners try to dump their dollar holders, things in dollars will also go up no matter what current us consumer credit and liquidity is...

[trevormac77]

We absolutely need a jubilee, that's why it was built into the old testament that every 50 years debt was cancelled and private property returned to it's ancestral owners. This prevented lenders from overextending as they new it was coming and prevented wealth consolidation into the hands of a few. God knew what He was doing :)

[trevormac77]

The US isn't being run as a capitalist state, it's much more akin to a fascist state where you have Big Business working in lockstep with Government.

[gosciu555]

Do you listen to Tarpley? He calls it the fascist corporate state, which is a govt. sponsored, compulsory cartel.

[Dean0000007]

or pushing again'st creeping capitalism. Bush has proved that capitalism has failed, not til his last days did he turn to socialism to save capitalist failures.

[TruthAxe]

What's failed is Central Bank Capitalism coupled with Corporatism-Socialism. Under this system, oligopolists strive to control markets through regulation.

What works is Free Banking Capitalism coupled with free markets.

With Free Banking Capitalism and Free Markets, the emergence of order through chaotic forces of a complex system happens.

As always, it's Collectivists and the Collectivism, regardless of system -- Fascism, Feudalism, Socialism, Communism, Corporatism -- that fails.

[Dean0000007]

Completely agree with the failure of Central Bank Capitalism and Corporate bought Washington or Fascism. It isn't socialism though, the bailout didn't go to helping people it went to helping banks.

The only free market banks are the smaller successful ones, not the huge monopoly banks on Wallstreet. They're the ones buying the smaller successful banks with bailout money to prop up their margins.

[TruthAxe]

Cool, Dean!

Socialism meaning living by a council of bureaucrats who decide who gets what and sometimes who does what.

Bureaucrats decide who gets Medicare, Medicaid, Soc. Sec., FDIC bailouts, Treasury bailouts -- all are kinds of socialism.

Even when the Fed Res bailsout member banks, they do so because of holding a monopoly charter for the mfg and distrib of credit -- a charter granted by politicians and administered by bureaucrats.

[Dean0000007]

I might add that it was Christmas Eve and "3 bought out politicians" approved the Fed Reserve over a technicality while all the other politicians went home for the holidays. Sounds like fascism to me.

Bureaucrats in insurance companies being paid exorbatant amounts in bonus money deciding who gets insurance money because any payout will hit their bottom line does not sound like something that is anyones best interest except theirs.

[WorldIssues2000]

It is socialism but for the rich!!

[Dean0000007]

socialism for the rich is basically fascism, fascism is the combination of corporations and state. You don't get anymore fascist than bailing out banks which helped absolutely no one except bankers and hedge fund managers.

[Dean0000007]

Capatalism can be lumped in with your group of Fascism, Feudalism, Socialism, Communism, and Corporatism. Some of these economic models had good intentions to begin with but failed because of corruption, greed, & power. It's the same as Capitalism, it failed because too many rules were broken, corruption, greed, & power broke the system. So why is capitalism any different?

[TruthAxe]

Capitalism means living by renting cash and having the legal right to get paid first, before the cash rentee pays himself profit.

That's all it means.

Capital comes from the Latin caput, meaning head. Capital means being at the head of the line to get paid.

Dummies confuse capital with money.

Capital means a legal right. Money is mere notes and coins.

[Dean0000007]

Capitalism means making money I get that. LOL However you word it - renting cash means - money, legal right to get paid means - money. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, but when a corporation start monopolizing and growing and buying other companies out and reducing competition, then paying lobbyists to go to Washington to make new policies that benefit monopolies. I have a problem with that.

[TruthAxe]

Capitalism means living by renting cash with legal right to get paid first.

Capitalism DOES NOT MEAN "making money."

A farmer who grows corn and sells it is making money. Yet, he's not a capitalist engaging in capitalism.

[TruthAxe]

Yes, Political Competition, which arises from corruption and reflects the EFFEMINATE MIND -- a diseased mind, rots a society and their culture.

The only legit competition is Economic Competition, which comes from a MANLY MIND -- a healthy mind.

Politicial Competitors love courtiers, living by gossip, conspiracy and mistrust.

Economic Competitors love the thrill of the game, living by trust, striving to be better.

[Dean0000007]

Sounds like the a MANLY MIND or HEALTHY MIND, will take advantage of a situation where someone is in a desperate situation to enrich themselves. Very well put. =) Sounds like we do agree in politicians though, I hate them because their bought out. Look up the definition of capitalism, your definition is completely warped. It's the ownership of capital to be invested and determined by private decision based on prices, production, and competition in a free market. It's corrupt though.

[TruthAxe]

Dictionaries are mere collections of usages. Editors decide on entries based on a targeted, idealized customer.

Most dictionaries get written for the 6th grade level.

Dictionary editors include wrong entries on the basis of common usage.

You should learn how dictionaries get created.

My definition of capitalism is correct. I describe the concept perfectly and based on etymology.

Good luck with your false beliefs though.

Men have cash to rent. Capital is a legal right.

[Dean0000007]

A person that believes that dictionaries are not proper definitions for words. LOL I've read college text books on the matter

Please don't take this personally but from someone that has gotten out of an insane asylum.

As for me I have taken business courses such as bookkeeping accounting, business modelling, security accounting.

Good luck with "your" false beliefs. You have no idea on how present and future cash flows work. It's really quite layman your understanding of economics.

[TruthAxe]

You amuse, Dean.

You've completed a few college courses and maybe you've heard of "net present value" and now you have the world convinced that you're the next Warren Buffet.

Here's a gift. 1-800-969-NMHA. The call is free. Someone is there to take your call. Yet you must make the first move.

Your parents shall thank you. Your friends shall thank you, if you have any.

[Dean0000007]

Truelly you amuse, you throw some crap around about "living" by rented cash and you are some sort of guru on capitlsm. Please grow up. You really have a distorted view of economics, and probably life aswell. As for the gift, no thanks, I'll take the degree I've paid for and the knowledge I do have. Some joker that thinks he knows something but probably knows nothing whatsoever exept what Mommy and Daddy told him when he was a little kiddie and being niave licked up and spit out the bone.

[TruthAxe]

You amuse, Dean.

Mere words have set you off into an uncontrolled rage. Look at you go!

Your cognitive dissonance kicked in and forced you to defend your false beliefs when confronted with truth as to what is capitalism.

Oh how you amuse, Dean.

Enjoy peddling your Fred's College degree.

[Dean0000007]

I truelly believe I'm wasting my time with you. I think your deranged and need help with your living economy crap and MANLY MIND BS. Really I dont care what you believe anymore, probably believe in the Flintstone's as fact. Good luck in life buddy, you'll need it.

[TruthAxe]

Wow, Dean. How you amuse!

Look at you go! You've been whipped into a frenzy, displaying out of control rage!

Don't blame us because you pissed away your money at some joke college and thus you did not learn about money and credit.

Have you called 1-800-969-NMHA yet? You can get the help you so desperately need.

[Dean0000007]

As usual you over estimate yourself, your a joke. LOL You are nothing more than someone that has an over inflated ego and the air in your head is leaking. Really I'm not mad, I smile and chuckle at you nothing more... go to the playground little naive kiddie.

[TruthAxe]

You amuse, Dean, again!

Next time, try "you're", the contracted form of the second person subject pronoun for the verb 'to be'.

What you wrote is "your", the second person possessive pronoun.

We're enjoying how mere words have triggered you into defense of your false beliefs.

Oh, the joys of cognitive dissonance -- how you amuse, Dean.

[Dean0000007]

This coming from someone with the "manly mind" and the living off rented money as a description of capitalism. You are mildly entertaining with your deluded understanding of society.  If you want to be my secretary and do my typing and correct my grammer I wouldn't hire you. You simply are a pathetic individual deluded in his laughable "manly mind". LOL Goodbye idiot. Here's a number for you Mental Illness support line - 1 800 444-7415

[TruthAxe]

You never fail to amuse, Dean.

First, go to craigslist and hire someone to teach you reading comprehension skills.

Second, get your own material. Already in several posts, I gave you the 1-800 for mental health help.

Clearly, you're suffering from a mind disorder and all YTers who read this thread can see such.

Watching how mere words wind you up and send you into rage gives us a great source of amusement.

You're freaked out because you don't get money, credit, capitalism.

[TruthAxe]

Oh and Dean, the word is 'grammar' and not "grammer" as you write.

You're using a computer. Computers automate things.

That you cannot use a spell checker says much about how low your intellect is.

And how sad you don't know the difference between you're and your -- basic English!

Lastly, you pissed away your money at some JOKE COLLEGE.

You're clueless about money and politics.

All can read the scroll and read how you kissed me ass and agreed with me in earlier posts.

[mrzack888]

im not worried about deflation. I'm more worried about the dollar stop being a global reserve currency which causes inflation for the U.S. Once US dollar stops being reserve currency, all commodities will go up regardless of deflation. My gold will still win.

[sujajajjaakakajjs]

so why are you worried i you will win?

[nexus411]

sounds like max is pushing for creeping socialism...

[JRCrowley]

No, he's pushing for the end of state capitalism. There's a huge difference.

[gosciu555]

You're confusing "socialism" with national economics.