Martin Amis Christopher Hitchens a conversation about Antisemitism and Saul Bellow Part 5

[TomValedro]

few of jews sucking their own cocks? Who cares?

[thebjmassacre]

HItchens also needs the JEWS for PUBLISHING his books, since they control the PUBLISHING WORLD, he's a hyprocrite. Another typical money lover.

[thebjmassacre]

Hitchens is a JEW.

[SoaringWhiteOwl]

Jews are constantly accused of manipulating world governments, polities, economies, media, the sciences, Nobel prizes, etc.

How come the Somalis & Muslims only get accused of brutish murders but never of winning countless Nobel prizes, devising brilliant economic strategies or creating a globally persuasive media juggernaut?

Why do Jews seem infinitely more intelligent, creative & sophisticated than Arabs & Somalis? Does this prove evolution?

[fctchk]

"False prophet" - a most unfortunate term indeed, especially for Mr. Hitchens to be saddled with, because it implies the existence of a true prophet.

[Fukkutah]

Are people (like Palestinian Hamas) who are violently and illegally deprived of their lands, homes, and livelihoods; whose children are being killed, their prison-home (Gaza) is falling under what the UN humanitarian agencies call on various occasions: crimes against humanity; war crimes; genocide .. Is it really a surprise that they would feel animosity towards (Israelis/Jews) who are responsible for all these miserable conditions they have been subjected to for over 60 years?

[Fukkutah]

People don't accuse West Indians of taking over Wall Street because there are no west Indians in wall street. If you look at the owners of the Federal Reserve and most of the banking sector and financial institutions and Wall Street, you will see for fact that it is mainly and disproportionately run and owned by jews. It isn't anti-Semitism, it is just an observation based on facts on the ground. Dispute the fact if you will.

[QwidgyboMan]

They are also, almost entirely, white. It's a cheap, fatuous point and anyone who infers anything about it is guilty of paranoia IMO.

[Fukkutah]

If Hitchens wants to speak of how anti-Semitic Hamas's holly book is (Quran), let's hear what he has to say about the Israeli holly book (Talmud). No he can't because that would be anti-Semitic. What a load of garbage

[Mike3303]

Haha, you must know nothing about Hitch if you don't think he's willing to take a a good punch or two at a holy book. As for your comments on Wall Street, what's your implication? That Jews as an aggregate should be condemned because of the actions of a few of their own? That their Judaism caused them to become debauched? That there's a Zionist Wall Street conspiracy? Blacks make up the highest poverty rates in America. I don't think you would make the same observation concerning them.

[Fukkutah]

@Mike3303 I know about Hitch more than you think. He identifies himself as being Jew. He has found it easy and comfortable to fit himself into the neo-con agenda now try to explain that side of hitch?

As far as Jews in Wall Street .. there is no implication besides that stated fact that Jews own and control Wall street. No one should be condemned for the action of another.

[QwidgyboMan]

Come again? Have you read his writings on the religiosity of Judaism? He obliterates Judaism in both print and person.

[mowgly3000]

@Fukkutah Actually he talks about it all the time. Have you read his "God is not great" bestseller or at least seen videos here youtube like Hitchens' 10 commandments among many others, and no it's not anti-semitic to criticize Judaism. Koran is full of ant-semtic statements which Hamas bases their "Charter" (constitution) on. Hamas & Palestinians are not the same, for one Hamas is Iranian proxy 

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

All the new world order conspiracy theories are based on this antisemitic world view.

[alienmoonbase]

why don't these two fucks get together and tell us why new york banking jews have destroyed the ENTIRE world economy?

Oh yea, they only want to talk about the perv freud and self promoter einstein.

What if EVERY chinese american drolled on and on and on and on about how the chinese contributed to civilization...

Is it any wonder people just don't LIKE jews.

Its not because they are Jew ish. Cna't you see that?

Its because you're a self promoting ass hole. Can't you see that?

[adamredwine]

Yeah, because there are no Christians on Wall Street at all. Have you read any Freud? Do you the least bit about physics? I have a degree in physics, trust me, Einstein would be hailed as a genius with or without self promotion. He overturned the model of physics that had prevailed since Newton.

[alienmoonbase]

I have an engineering degree. I took three calculus pre-qualified physics courses.

But enough with your logical fallacies- appeal to authority. I'm not interested in a pissing contest with you.

Freud? Are you fucking joking?  I'm sorry but the PENIS ENVY theory that women's psychological problems are caused by a secret desire for a penis? HAAAAAAAAA.

Idiot.

Einstein had great ideas, but others had them at the same time. His wife BTW, did most of the difficult math for him.

[adamredwine]

Yes, Freud's conclusions were pretty kooky, I agree. What he did do, however, was to get people to look at mental health in a scientific light. He was one of the first people to seriously sit down and say, okay, there has to be some method to this madness we call thought, let's figure it out.

Einstein had a brilliant wife it is true, and she was also Jewish. Yes, special relativity was in the zeitgeist, but general relativity? That was his genius.

[wgaule]

Two things: there was more to Freud than his doctrine on penis envy; as is the case with most thinking men, he wasn't always wrong nor was he always right! Also, how do you know Einstein's wife did most of his difficult maths? Cite your sources. This sounds like rumour posing as fact!

[alienmoonbase]

There are christians on wall street. So what. The biggest thieves -jews

The problem is Jewish tribalism promoted by these fucking idiots who think they are better than everybody else.

They cherry pick jewish achievement and ignor Jewish thievery. Bernie Madoff. Michael Milken, Ivan Bosky, Goldman Sachs,

Have any of you semites watches PBS Frontline's "THE WARNING"

Its the story of east coast jews forcing a west coast gentile woman to give up her pursuit of regulating their thievery.

[adamredwine]

Who is ignoring the thieves? It's just that you are only pointing out Jews. That's a little thing we call selection bias.

By the way, I'm not Jewish. I was raised in a Methodist family on a farm in western Iowa. I'm as non-Jewish as it gets.

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

@alienmoonbase You know Hitler blamed the Jews for the great depression too.

Are you proud to follow in his footsteps, Nazi?

[region1111]

When did this discussion take place? Anyone hate a date?

[PhillyDickinson]

April 2004, I think.

[infokemp]

No one ever worries about anti-eskimo, but when they own all banks and media in the US then we might worry about the feelings of eskimos.

Anti-semitism, the most anti semitic people are the Israeli and Arabs both semetic people who hate each other.

As an Atheist I am shocked at the normally Rationalism of Hitchens faultering on the subject of the Jews. Its cowardice.

Zionists are no better than Fascist or AlQueada religious nut cases.

Israel was supposed to be a secular nation from inception

[alienmoonbase]

Well said. I noticed the same thing in these conversations. Hitch has taken sides here and revealed his bias towards the Zionists. Very disturbing. "a paranoid theory"? lol

OK. Here is my theory.

Bernie Madoff - Jew

Ivan Boskey - Jew

Fuld of Lehman - Jew

Michael Milken - Jew

Hank Greenberg of AIG (created derivative division ) Jew

Summers, Rubin, Greenspan - killed derivative regulaion in '98

So, if I ask a question, why so many Jew in on killing 50 trillion losses?

[alienmoonbase]

why so many sociopath jews in top positions stealing from the public at a scale which has never been seen before in the history of humanity?

I'm a conspiracy theorist?

My 401k is annihilated and I can't ask questions? Its MY fault?

I should offer my neck willingly?

Hitchens rails against the violence of muslim culture and the lunacy of christial fundamentalism.

But he is silent on the murderous greed of American Jews on wall street.

50 TRILLION !? in losses to humanity and not a word

[Chaos876]

Yea, why don't you go ahead and list all African Americans in power, and try to figure out what's bad about that too.

Something happened out of your control, you suffered from it, you look for a scapegoat. Very much familiar, I'm not impressed.

[Gozillacia]

...what rubbish these two brilliant men are talking. Going by their description of antisemitism, I've never, in all my life, met an anti-semite. Of course it is quite possible, indeed patently obvious that most peoples anti-antisemitism is only slightly so - and even the rabid anti-semites of the far right run out of details after a few sentences - they are too thick to retain more. Obviously racism is the big evil -but what is this "we are especially hated" if not a variation on that theme.

[chutzpah37]

There is not room enough here to formulate an answer to the self deception on display here, although there is an "urge",to use Amis' word, to respond disgracefully. Thank god (there being no god, thank god) for jews who are merely proud (if that is the right word) to wear the badge of humanity, without the need to subdivide it, thereby diminishing it; jews, who like the best of us lesser mortals("they're just jealous darling")value togetherness and honest self reflection."Antizionism" anyone?

[chutzpah37]

Israel is clearly not what it could have been.

I don't know what this conversation (Jewish only audience - any secular muslims/sikhs considered worthy for instance? - maybe) was in aid of, but certainly it failed to demonstrate any appreciation of the myriad flaws the recurrent powers controlling that particular country consistently inflict on it's neighbours, whose opinions on the matter are presumably dismissed without question as reflecting an inate and intractable antisemitism. Standard...

[shawry86]

what country is perfect?? israel has done fucked up things all countries have..but if you realise why the jewish state was set up..the fact is was set up because of anti semitism and jewish refugees having to leave their homelands not because they were all zionists stealing land which god gave to them..the fact that it was set up a few years after the holocaust surely says why it can seem like its reactions are harsh at times..

[drongovids]

What better way to escape anti-semitism than to set up a nation state among and within anti-semitic countries?

[shawry86]

lol true...but thats britians fault not israels

[drongovids]

Unless Britain forced the zionists to have their state in palestine, which they didn't, then it's the zionists' fault.

[shawry86]

if you knew anything about israelis you would know that is wasnt set up because jews wanted to go back to their spiritual homeland given to them by god..it was set up so the jewish refugees not just from europe but also from many arab countries had a homeland. if they were told to go to bloody mexico they would have gone there, but they were TOLD to go to palestine, the british mandate...learn about it...my godfather was palestinian my sister in law israeli and ive been there BOTH sides

[shawry86]

and 'zionism' is a word which is more used by the outside world than any1 actualy living in israel...settlers who are a tiny minority and are not liked in israel, i was always told if their wasnt a war with the arabs their would be a civil war against them and the more religious sect..if you had ever stepped foot in israel places like tel aviv haifa eilat..you would be hard pushed to find a so called zionist..

[shawry86]

what you would find is many israelis who are not very religious, many israeli arabs and even some christians..yes you would find religious jews also but so what..but saying zionism represents israel is like saying the jesus army represent england

[drongovids]

I didn't say anything about modern day Israelis. I only just came back from Israel the other day, I love being there. But come on, you can't make me believe that Britain somehow forced loads of Jews to go live in Palestine. The Zionists were trying to get the paper work through for a Jewish state in Palestine as early as 1890.

[shawry86]

yes but that has nothing to do with te creation of the jewish state!

[chutzpah37]

I was replying to a previous comment you made - maybe that wasn't clear. We must of course look at history, to understand how things have come to pass. Nonetheless it is clear to me that Israel, as a state, is far from civilised and acts jingoistically and often against the best interests of the majority of Israelis (not to mention their neighbours). If you have been to the occupied territories you will know the second class citizenship experienced by the palestinians compared to the settlers.

[JohanHelenius]

For how long do you think the state of Israel would exist if Israel wouldn't retaliate arab attacks?

[chutzpah37]

There is an international concensus on how this "conflict" can be resolved - a concensus of course that does not include Israel and the US: Two states, 1967 borders, right of return for refugees. Israel (the state) claims to want peace - it's actions suggest otherwise. It's actions suggest the illegal acquisition of more territory is of greater importance than peace. Israel hold all the cards, but likes to claim otherwise - it identifies itself as always the victim - thus justifying all actions.

[chutzpah37]

How would the identiy of Israel change if it was not at war with it's neighbours?

[chutzpah37]

You will also have seen the daily humiliation experienced by the palestinians. You will have seen the disparity in living conditions. I do not think it is too different to the impression you would have got from apartheid South Africa

[chutzpah37]

Please note, I am referring to the state - people are very different I know.

[chutzpah37]

Look, the Israeli state, backed by the military and security services, continues to DO "fucked up things", as you put it, completely out of proportion to that which is done to it. Just glance at the figures of the most recent "conflict " (admittedly approximate) - 1300 Palestinians and 13 Israelis dead. "What about the rockets?" Well, if someone is stamping on your neck, it is quite possible, you might try and hit them with anything one's hands can find, whilst scrabbling around in the dirt.

[shawry86]

i really dont get your point?? as i support israel

[shawry86]

israel is a tiny country surrounded by a massive sea of anti semitic countries...and ofcourse youll call me a zionist or a jew, but im neither i just dont support bullshit, palestinians have been used and exploited for so many years in the demonisation of israel, i dont agree with how they have been treated but i also dont agree with the fact no arab countries or leadership has done anything to help them..arabs have lots of money as do hamas they could if they wanted to

[BlankVellum]

@shawry86 But that is like saying that if France was to be occupied by a foreign country, and its people ejected from their homes and subsumed by illegal settlements,then the rest of Europe should intervene to house them and feed them.I don't doubt the would, but as it happens, many Arab countries (Jordan and Egypt spring to mind) do help house Palestinian refugees.They've been doing so for over 40 years. But this breeds resentment from the natives against Palestinians. it's a terrible situation

[QwidgyboMan]

@shawry86

A tiny country? Geographically it is but it is also the 11th strongest military power in the world and has nuclear weapons. Not to mention ardent support from the US. They're about as much at threat of destruction, insofar as weaponry and manpower is concerned, as Russia is from the Ukraine and Georgia.

[chutzpah37]

Antisemitism "is a theory a paranoid theory"

[shawry86]

paranoid? egypt massada babilon rome crusades ottoman nazis islamonazis medieval christianity ID BE PRETTY PARANOID ALSO if i were jewish

[chutzpah37]

That was a quote - Mr Hitchen's I think

[chutzpah37]

"Seeing it when it wasn't their"

[chutzpah37]

"They don't like west indians because of their music, or indians for the smell of their cooking etc.....they'll all sink their differences when it comes to the Jews"