America was founded by people that wanted to get away from religious oppression.
why do people believe God is predestined? and also I believe praying is not just asking things from (God) but also getting pain off your chest when you think or say words out loud. or put you high spirits when you feel down. (sometimes 4 me its a time when I can hear the words myself it doesn't always have to be about God)
how am i wrong? your almost repeating what i said exept i didnt call Christianity a fairytale or sky people as you put it. atheism dont preach anything exept they dont believe in a creator, and that there is no God, i said that and you agreed so since were both in agreement of that then i ask again..what am i wrong about? structure and order was created otherwise therre'd be kayos. fact is we live in a funcioning world of structure and order and i find it impossible for there to not be a God.
i have trouble understanding why athiest are so bent on disproving God? if they dont believe then they dont believe so why should they care any further and spend so much time and put so much effort into proving something dont exist? it just seems completly irrational. Christians celebrate salvation and eternal life but what do atheists celebrate, light turning to black and turning to dirt and then no more existence? it makes sense to talk about existence(God) but not non existence(nothingness)
@icarus212001 although im Christian by belief i dont believe anyone should be forced to believe in it and the bible teaches free will anyway but i will say this, theres no doubt that the core values of Christianity are good values weather you believe in God and Christ or not and if everyone went by these core values then many of the attrocities that have taken place wouldnt have so the values are still an asset no matter whats believed. read the teachings of Christ and youll see what i mean!
@icarus212001 an example of those teaches, last week i baught a drink and gave them a 10$ and they gave me back change for a 20' so i got a free drink and more money than i gave in return. they turned and walked away. well they didnt think anymore about it but i saw they gave me too much. i told them and they checked and was supprised i didnt rip them off. i was low on money and couldve kept it but i couldnt feel good about myself doing that so i kept it honest.
The founding father weren't christians. Most had the belief that theocracy is the dumbest way that a nation shall be established. No church should have influence over the government.
@yomamasapeach "To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." George Washington
"America was founded on no theology....but Christianity." John Hancock
"God who gave us life gave us liberty." Jefferson
Every founding father professed Christianity. It is your biased atheistic texts which falsely say otherwise.
@policeexplorer326 Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society. wash
@yomamasapeach Your quotations are egregiously irrelevant in determining the role in faith in the founding of our country. I have read the entire texts in which these statements are made. Washington and Adams, as determined in the 1892 Supreme Court ruling, supported a nation deemed Christian. The issue however, was of how the Christian principles may impede on a nation's free will to religion.
@yomamasapeach This is known as the Seperation of Church and State. The modern conception of which is entirely construed. When we examine documents (as i have in both the NARA and Library of Congress), it is salient that the purpose of this philosophy is not relevant in judging what theological foundation may be present, but the role of which what foundation may be applied to the governance of our society.
@yomamasapeach This, not the presence of any theological rudiment as it would pertain to the founding of our country,is the thesis of these quotations.
@policeexplorer326 The founding fathers knew that the majority of the country was of christian faith and that many were believers in god, but they knew if they were to right a constitution that was purely based on god, a theocratic constitution, the country would not grow as a place of religous freedom or democracy because later on, there would be other beliefs other than just god and they believed this very truly.
@yomamasapeach That's just the kind of thing I would expect from a neandertal cop. Not ALL but MOST cops are complete mindless douche-bags and for your information the founding fathers were less religious than any of the douche-bags that are front runners for the presidency. There is no such thing as god. Religion is for mindless morons and people who don't know how to think for themselves.
@somethingdiffereable Yes, God is not an existant being because there is no real proof of truth in what is written. As for the founding fathers, they did have a religous background but compared to most they would be considered as agnostics. Religion is more of a mind control method for sheep, nothing but brainless sheep who don't like to see the light of day.
@yomamasapeach Wahington however, wanted to LIMIT the impact a theological Constitution may have on rights implored by the government. The basis for this debacle between founding fathers consisted of this very proportion. The country was founded on faith, the text for the Constitution based on it, yet the concern over the Church-or predominant religion of the time- taking advantage of this is the entire thesis of the precept cemented as the "seperation of Church and State"
@policeexplorer326 Jefferson wrote the vast majority of the constitution with some help by John Adams and others. Washington had little to do with it and was primarily a General in the Army (which was after the constitution was already written). Washington was not sworn in as president until 1789. Jefferson wrote the seperation of church and state into the 1st amendment of the constitution. T. Jefferson "the bible is a dunghill"! John Adams "The United states of is in no way a christion country"
@somethingdiffereable Jefferson had nothing to do with the writing of the constitution. He was in France at the time. I dont mean any disrespect but you do need to review the facts because you are misinformed.
@policeexplorer326 When they say a country such as the united states with high amounts of christians, the government knew that if we made a church like state, the country would crash. Also, the constitution wasn't written for religion, but after the magna carta and the rule of law which states that no one is above the law, not even the church and for the freedom of expression and to protect your freedom of religion.
@yomamasapeach Most of which, i do not disagree with you on. BUT, the Constitution clearly was written for religion. Not for any one in particular, but for all so that not one may be discriminated against. The Constitution itself takes the stance that there IS a God. It states that what rights we have the the government is unable to impose upon were derived from the very christian God you deny. Our country was founded on a Christian Constituion.
@yomamasapeach However, it was founded on the belief, also, that not all Americans have to be of that affiliation. It states that we may have the freedom of religion, or as Gouverneur Morris put it "the liberty to choose that which religion we belong to." Furthermore, the Constitution does not recognize nonreligion as religion. Thus, under the Constitution, and as stated by Morris who oversaw the drafting of the Constitution, the freedom NOT to have one doesn't exist.
@policeexplorer326 You have the wrong reading. The constiution allows the freedom of religion, but no national establishments. "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed" James Madison. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof 1st ammendment
@yomamasapeach Again, you are confusing historical fact. The Constitution only recognizes religion. Gouverneur Morris made that clear to Adams before he allowed it to be drafted. You're right, the constitution does allow freedom of religion (notice it doesnt say freedom not to have one) and prohibits the national establishment thereof. Go to the National Archives. Find Jefferson's recording of Gouverneur Morris' address to the Founding fAthers....
@yomamasapeach In Philadelphia, Feb. 16, i believe. Things will become clearer for you. The free exercise thereof means the right to exercise/advocate for/ and choose ones own religion. Note it does not include the right to NOT to have a religion. The Constituional philosophy that is the Seperation of Church and State as you apply it in this debate, is entirely irrelevant as this was done to protect the free exercise of religion, not the free exercise of not having one
@policeexplorer326 Yet we are on the debate that the constitution is based on christianity and as we see, christianity is not the only religion and just because the rights say we can practise religion, doesn't mean that you lose them when you don't have one, but they simply don't apply. If you have no religion then you don't practise and the constitution protects you from persecution of your practise. Your argument is wrong in all context. Yet the gov't has no say in religion, vice versa.
@yomamasapeach Just because Christianity is not the only religion, does not mean the Constitution was not based on Christianity. You have no historical data to back what you say. It is salient in the Constitution that it gives us the right to choose what religion we affiliate ourselves with. No where does it say we may not be affiliated with one. During the time the Constitution was written, many were imprisoned for being "indifferent" to religion.
@yomamasapeach Furthermore, official NARA documentation of the Feb. 16, 1774, i believe, it is decided under the persuasion of Morris that the lack of belief in any religion will not be recognized in the Constitution, as, during that time, it was often associated with witchcraft. It is unclear whether they deemed witchcraft or nonreligion as being a threat to the establishment of any religion, but it is salient they closely correlated the two. Until you do proper research in....
@yomamasapeach ...this matter and spend the amount of time vested in the historical texts as existent in the national Archives, as i have, you have not the credentials to comment any further, as all you can offer the debate is that of your own biased perspective, and opinionated interpretation of the Constitution.
@policeexplorer326 I have shown you tect from the constitution and the people who have written it and you have furthermore disregarded them for your own belief that the constitution was written on the basis of christianity because the constitution recognizes any religion but does not base the law of the land on the laws of christianity. That would be like an example of saudi arabia, theocratical government which is not the U.S foundation but democracy and liberty are.
@policeexplorer326 Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, [the people, in the 1st Amendment,] declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. Thomas jefferson wrote this in 1802.
@yomamasapeach They DID right a Constitution around many Biblical principles. The Supreme Court even deemed it. Files in the NARA and LOC back it up. Gouverneur Morris of PA. refused to draft the constitution if it did not find it self accountable to the "unalienable rights" GOD has granted us. However, you are confused as to how this translates into legal, and Constitutional coherence in government.
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?
John adams
The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State James madison
@yomamasapeach John Adams and his son John Quincy Adams 1st and 6th presidentsof the U.S. lived about 2 miles from where live in Quincy Ma. The estate is still there and it is a tourist attraction which remains in it's original state. The house where both of them were born is about 4 miles from here and still remains also.
@yomamasapeach Yeah, it's called peacefield. It's about 5 or 6 acres in the rich section of Quincy on Adams st. They filmed part of the movie "Amistad" there. And they also filmed the 5 part HBO series on John Adams there.Both Adam's and Abigail are buried at the Universal Unitarian church in Quincy center. It's a good stop if you are ever in the Boston area.
@MegaGangstaparadise yet he did not want to found the nation on god. The nation was founded on the principles of the magna carta written by King John in 1215 and the liberties which they thought for. Unlike the rulers of Europe who said they had earned power from God, the president believed that the people should pick their leader. Even though pilgrims came to the new world to escape persecution, many other people without belief came too. America is founded on liberty and justice.
@yomamasapeach so did Christianity fall from the sky to get here then? no many were Christians, maby not all but many were and they even gave thanks on the very first thanks giving and giving thanks isnt the athiest thing to do now is it.
@dirtyjew1974 No, christianity is a belief that has been spread around by missionaries who spread the word of the lord. The bible was there book and thats all they read and all the dumb people of the world believed in it because the book is so threatening. Atheism is the knowledge that God doesn't exist and atheist do thanks. They thank the planet for providing food and providing a good atmosphere in which I can breath. No god did that, but a life cycle did.
@yomamasapeach then if you wanna call them missionaries thats fine but back then they were also the founding fathers to be more accurate. everyone didnt know how to get here man, the founding fathers learned from the indians sat down for the first thanksgiving and gave thanks not to the rocks and dirt but to God, its that plain and that simple. atheism is the knowledge of nothing because thats what its the belief in..nothingness and giving thanks to the planet for food is paganism not atheism.
@yomamasapeach the founder of the american athiest organisation madaline ohair was murdered along with her son and grand daughter by american atheist manager david waters...honor among people with no moral foundation i suppose. Christians on the other hand have commandments and build a foundation upon the bible and knowledge that God exists and wants them to love and honor their fellow man. now people always at times do things they shouldnt but i never heard of this in billy grahams ministry
@dirtyjew1974 Yet time and time again priest have been shown to rape boys, christian fundamentalist going on a rampage, catholics kill christians and protestants and not to mention jews. The truth of the matter is that if your loving "God" existed, there wouldn't be a genocide of the jews because he would save them. Sadly he didn't and 6 million jews died with no help until the allies won. You tell me this, when your people stop believing in sky people, atheist will accept you.
@yomamasapeach I think youll find a huge difference between conventional christianity and catholosism for start, the founding fathers came to America to escape religious percecution from guess who? The church of England aka Catholics.im not about to deny atrocities by the catholic church with the forced conversions and perversion with children but the bible teaches free will unlike the teachings by catholics at that time, bible also dont promote raping children. humans have free will,its a gift
@yomamasapeach and the whole genecide thing is mans sin againsed man and since God gave man free will thens its man who is mans problem. for example if you pay someones way out of jail everytime they get arrested then their never gonna learn anything. People treat God like a vending machine and think they only need him when its convenient for them but it dont work that way. and it was 6 million jews that parished, not every single one so we were saved. untill the end evil will always be around
@dirtyjew1974 You are saying that but God knew that man would do that. He didn't like the egyptians enslaving so he sent a saviour but when 6 million jews die and their heavenly father who they look up to doesn't give a damn, it looks like he might not even be their like he used to. "God" is if you say an ass. He doesn't want you to have knowledge, like in adam and eve and if you don't believe in him he will send you to a bad place but loves you. God ain't real and neither is zeus.
@yomamasapeach the fact that people die because other people kill them dont prove that God dont care nor does it disprove his existence, the only think it does is prove mans uncarinig and man can do better whenever man wants. this life isnt the only life and we will live on even after death when we enter another life. death isnt the end and many will live a great afterlife but many will not. God makes more sense to me than the big bang where matter began because matter blew up
@yomamasapeach much of man kind wants God out of the equasion all together such as goverment because they dont wanna live by a standard. when they leave that out of the equasion as if they dont need it then why is he going to help out mankind who deny him as far as todays concerned? God allows things to happen for a reason and its not up to understand what all those reasons are, its like a bug trying to comprehend us the ones of superior intellegence, its just not going to happen
@dirtyjew1974 That is totally irrelevant. Countries that have theocracies are the ones where there are far more crime and social injustice. For example, Saudi Arabia, women can't drive/ must wear vail. Iran, Stoned to death by law. In some places, religion is taught and not science. You keep saying God does things for a reason but the truth is that there is no evidence of God. When you mix religion and government, countries fall. Also, we are probably ants in the eyes of a alien race.
@yomamasapeach then i have to also argue that your point is irrelevant considering saudi arabia isnt a Christian counry but muslim nor are Christian woman made to wear head dressings so you cant make a point about Christian Principles in the U.S by using saudi arabian woman as your example. and also aliens dont live hear nor vote anyway so im not sure where you were going with that one but atleast that statement was confusing if nothing else lol
@dirtyjew1974 Yet a christian theocracy is just as dangerous. Look at Bush, he was a firm believer in Jesus and God and he believed that Saddam was the antichrist and he tore the country apart. Pure theocracies tend to fail because they aren't able to support human rights. The "good book" speaks of many deeds which would be considered otherwise offensive in todays society. The government should give religous freedom but no authority in decisions.
@yomamasapeach so tell me excactly what it was that bush did in particular. he didnt think saddam to be the antichrist so im not sure exactly where it is your getting your information. as far as approval in just 2 years obamas ratings went lower than bushes and obama isnt a Christian. now if you wanna talk about troops over seas as your argument for bush tearing apart a country then my answer is that bush hasnt been in office for 3 years now and troops are still there.
@yomamasapeach lets keep in mind that bush was in office for 8 years so what obama did in getting his own approval ratings even lower was quiet an impressive feat, especially considerinng he did it in just 2 years. another thing is bush was a war time presedent so atleast thats a more valid reason to get lower ratings and yet obama isnt considered a war time presedent and still got his ratings even lower and you wanna talk bush tearing a country up. he did his best under the war circumstances.
@dirtyjew1974 Man, are you wrong. There was no war, this was all a set up by Bush to enter Iraq for oil. There were no WMD's in Iraq and so quickly you christians and your delusions of God telling you there are didn't work, instead thounsands of American troops die. You want to know war time,WWI, WWII and the cold war. That wasn't a real war, the U.S won it after shock and awe. After war son, God is really just another fairy tale.
@yomamasapeach so you say im wrong and there was no war and then you go on to say thousands of American troops die...so which one is it because you cant have it both ways. and what realavance is what all that in relation to what my last message was anyway? ww1,ww2 millions died so yeah id say those were wars, there sure wasnt mass suicides.
@yomamasapeach you can refere to Christianity and God as a fairy tale to your hearts content but millions if not billions believe in a creater. athiesm is the belief in nothing so the athiests argument is just that...nothing
@dirtyjew1974 Wrong, atheist don't believe in fairy tales which were written 2000 years ago in the desert. The foundation is the truth which atheist know. Christianity isn't based on facts, nor is islam or judaism, budhism, hinduism, sikhism. Atheism are people with no god or sky daddy.
@yomamasapeach and why would it not be logical to say that life creates life? living man created by a living God makes more sense to me than saying matter began because matter blew up(big bang)because that goes back to the same question(how did matter begin). I dont think matter began from nothing, from total absense. there is and always was a consciense(God)world was created by desiegn and if theres a design then theres a designer.im the alpha and the omega,begging and end...God.
@yomamasapeach like youve done a few times with him i think youve misenturpeted what said lol. honestly he could make the same argument about you, that your a stubborn non believer who dont understand or dont want to understand the truth and he did give several constructive reasons as to why he thinks the way he thinks, especially about why he thinks theirs a God. I think he makes a good point about why its more likely God exists than dont exist.
@anselmochevelle Yes, and very well to him. I approve that he has the right to have his own opinion on the existence of God. But as you are the mediator, your own bias cannot be taken into consideration because the topic is one that is very biased. Our original conversation was about how any countries with church and state don't do as well as ones with no connection. He also took many of my words and twisted them to his liking, which I very much disagree with.
@yomamasapeach im not being bias between you and him, thats your assumtion but i am on the hand saying i do agree more with what hes saying. i think your misinterpreting much of what he said more so than him twisting what your saying and you also misenterpreted me earlier. maby a little miscomunication between you two also. the seperation of church and state is meant to keep the state out of the church, not the other way around. pilgrims came here escaping religious percecution.
@anselmochevelle Yes, but the terms of your beliefs create a bias toward the argumenter. You are right in the way that I may be misinterperating what he is saying but in the same way he is too. Also, you are wrong about how the state interupts the church, it simply says no interaction so the government can't control religion and religion can't control the government. America was founded by pilgrims, immigrants, natives, merchants and the people, not a church.
@yomamasapeach the people who origionally came and established themselves were people of Christian values, they were praying believing people and the evendence of that was there even years after. praying to begine political gatherins even till today. those values didnt stem from atheism and that cant be argued.
@anselmochevelle Yes but the whole founding of the new world was done by the countries to set out for their home countries in the search for gold, land and other resources. When pilgrims left they came to escape religous persecution. In Spain, the inquisition was caused by the mixing of church and state and the U.S realized that wasn't the way to go, so they decided no binding of the two. Thats why there is no church of the U.S, England had one, France, Italy but not the U.S
@dex1391 I don't know exactly what you're referring to, but yes, in general it did describe how both christians and non christians formed this country and how the religious policy of the united states was specifically designed to grant religious freedoms.
God is a spirit, an immaterial conscious being. All things in the universe consists of matter and/or energy, so if God isn't matter, is energy by definition. Energy is the capacity to do work, is eternal, omnipresent, wasn't created and can't be destroyed, can create matter, was the only thing present before the BB, and the energy required to make the universe must had been powerful. All these match Biblical descriptions of God. He wants us to elevate our consciousness to the next level, is real
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816
@TheWonderDoc the quote just shows that Jefferson didn't believe in the Trinity (like many Unitarian Christians). Supposedly the Trinity is a Catholic construct which is not even mentioned in the Bible.
Jefferson edited his own version of the bible. He just cherry picked the parts that he liked and left out parts that he didn't like. I think he was a "christian" of sorts (small "c") but when it came to matters of politics he was, like almost ALL of America's founders, a staunch secularist.
@hardinmichael1981 He had a number of quotes in regards to religion and christianity in particular, many are contradictory when viewing as a whole but I imagine must have been discoveries or influences in debate, etc. I took this quote to mean him speaking by analogy, instead of literally,but you could very well be right.
I agree that the founders were staunch secularists. They still had the bad taste in their mouth from the church of england.
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
Funny ,,,because that what they said in the days of Noah,,,and Sodom And Gomorrah...Last,,Christs return will come like a thief in the night.And you will know in the hour its all ready happened by utter chaos every-where,,,then if you happen to live through that,,You get your mark from your new God you will be forced to pledge allegiance too,then world peace for 3 1/2 years ,then Armageddon i highly doubt you live through,then you go straight to hell,the judgement day for you,and hell forever..
Gods universal order is his way in politics ect... It says his ways are higher then ours. Who are we to question what its fair or not ??? God is eternal and also says i change not!!! Whether we believe it or not, he is in control of everything! As for Noah,they were warned, but mocked Noah. Sodom & Gomorrah too, and today the warning is still in affect...Judgments are already in play" hurricanes,earthquakes famines getting worse by the day...The bible nails it!! If don't see it yr blind!
@flatop59 Nah. Don't see any of that nonsense because people HAVE BEEN SAYING IT FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS! I am so sick and tired of blind religists telling us the end is just around the corner. It's not. Get over it. Jesus isn't coming back. IF he existed - and that's doubtful - he's been dead 2000 years. And we haven't had a single speck of evidence for him or God since. So don't hold your breath, flatop. It's all a waste of your time and ours.
This country was founded by unwashed, drunken, slave owning, Native American slaughtering, potheads. who's idea of "Freedom and Equality" applied only if you were white and male.
"There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle in religion. Its least interference with it would be a most flagrant usurpation." James Madison
"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian Religion." treaty of tripoli, passed by the senate in 1797 and signed by George Washington
Quote mining is hard, you have to Google and everything! and it proves stuff, right?
@Rokrevthin the fact that these men were christians is not in contention. This is what both you and basically everyone who tries to claim that the US was founded a 'christian nation' fail to understand.
we KNOW that they were christians. We accept that. we do not try to claim to the contrary.
We also understand exactly what kind of nation they tried to set up, and it most certainly was NOT a christian one.
The fact that the founding fathers were christian is entirely irrelevant to this argument.
@Rokrevthin Another thing you don't understand is that there is a MASSIVE difference between a "christian nation" and "a nation made up of mostly christians."
I would not argue with you if you tried to claim that the US is, and always has been, the latter, because you would be right.
You are, however, trying to claim the former, and you need only read the first amendment to know otherwise.
Then the late Mr. Adams must have had a different copy of the bible than anybody else. Last I checked, I didn't see anything in the bible that gave people the right to overthrow their king, or that the authority of a government comes from the consent of the governed.The Bible, on the contrary, always supported the belief in the divine right of kings, teaches that kings are appointed by god himself, and made it a sin to disobey or turn against one's ruler.
“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.” – George Washington
“Education is useless without the Bible. The Bible was America’s basic text book in all fields. God’s Word, contained in the Bible, has furnished all necessary rules to direct our conduct.” – Noah Webster
“We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.” – John Adams and John Hancock
@Rokrevthin "The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."
This "infant" was there with every Founder capable of reproving him or correcting him -- none did. In fact, he was held up in his commentaries, supported by the Founder's words and actions, and encouraged to continue that line of reasoning... that this nation was a CHRISTIAN nation.
Choose not to accept truth, that's your right -- but it makes you no less wrong.
(cont) In his commentary of the First Amendment's original meaning, Justice Joseph Story clarified:
The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects [denominations] and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government.
~ Sounds really anti-Christian in scope & application, huh? We were founded a Christian nation.
(cont) It may well be asked, what is there in all this, which is positively enjoined, inconsistent with the spirit or truths of the religion of Christ? Are not these truths all taught by Christianity, although it teaches much more? Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?
(cont) Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament, without note or comment, be read and taught as a Divine Revelation in the [school -- its general precepts expounded, its evidences explained and its glorious principles of morality inculcated? What is there to prevent a work, not sectarian, upon the general evidences of Christianity, from being read and taught in the college by lay teachers?
(cont) Why may not laymen instruct in the general principles of Christianity as well as ecclesiastics... And we cannot overlook the blessings, which such [lay]men by their conduct, as well as their instructions, may, nay must, impart to their youthful pupils.
In 1844 case of Vidal v. Girard's Executors, Justice Joseph Story delivered the United States Supreme Court's unanimous opinion:
Christianity... is not to be maliciously and openly reviled arid blasphemed against, to the annoyance of believers or the injury of the public... It is unnecessary for us, however, to consider the establishment of a school or college, for the propagation of... Deism, or any other form of infidelity. Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country...
In Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833, Vol. III, Justice Joseph Story declared:
It yet remains a problem to be solved in human affairs, whether any free government can be permanent, where the public worship of God, and the support of religion, constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape.
@Rokrevthin 1: this man is not a founding father; he was an infant when the rev. war was fought and a child when the constitution was ratified. even if he were, I'd remain unimpressed with your quote mining, as the VIEWS of the founders are not as important or as relevant as their actions, which were to set up to be a secular government, "where the public worship of god, and the support of religion, constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape."
@vyyle ''where the public worship of god, and the support of religion, constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape''
Yeah, your statement doesn't imply no ''public worship of god, and the support of religion'', it implies that the worship and support of religion can't be a policy of the state.
@vyyle There are some Christians claiming today that it only goes one way - not both ways - the state can't control the church, but the church can have influence on the state. Funny.
@jfsfrnd unfortunately, they would be correct. the church has as much right to try to influence the state and the people of the nation as any other organization.
While I agree with you that the "dominionists" you speak of are immoral and should be countered, it is unfortunately the people's job to do so, and not the government's.
@vyyle So you think that the wall of separation only goes one way? So which religious groups have the right to influence government with their personal belief systems? You just contradicted yourself. First you said that ''the worship and support of religion can't be a policy of the state'', then you say that ''the church'' has a ''right try to influence the state and the people of the nation as any other organization''.
How do these two statements not contradict each other?
@jfsfrnd No, I didn't contradict myself, you're just not understanding what I'm saying. All religious organizations have a right that is equal to both each other and that of non-religious organizations to try to influence the government. That means indirectly, ie. through the people, through press, through petitions, etc.
Their right to petition government does not come from their religious origin. But their religious origin does not deny them their right to petition government.
@jfsfrnd I agree...and that's exactly the point I've been making.
Once again, the religions have the same right to petition government as every other type of organization. But the government cannot respond in such a way as to interfere with religion. Thus, it's a one way street.
@jfsfrnd I don't think you understand what the point I'm making is, which is:
A religious organization can make a secular petition to the government (for example, regarding a zoning issue), and the government must evaluate that request as though it came from a non-religious organization. to do otherwise would actually violate the first amendment.
@jfsfrnd in the case of abortion pt1, Religious organizations have a right to petition government to see their point of view. However, the government's decision must be based on decision that is devoid of religious doctrine or beliefs that cannot be defended with secular reasoning.
the argument that "abortion is bad because the bible says so" is not entirely religious.
@jfsfrnd there's a difference between the government saying that you can do something and the government paying to do it. That is why the 'ban' as you call it is legal. There is no secular reason that the government cannot or should not pay for an abortion. However, while not paying for it might restrict the access to abortions, it does not prohibit them, and as such, does not violate a person's rights.
that said; I do disagree with the government on this issue.
@jfsfrnd abortion pt2. On the other hand, a secular argument could be made for "life begins at conception." I don't agree with that statement (partly because 60% of all fertalized eggs fail to implant and are spontaneously aborted), but it could be defended without ever mentioning the belief in god, and you do not require a religion to agree with this concept.
as such, government would be free to debate abortion using this bullet point, and they have, and they've decided it's not sufficient.
"No distinction seems to be more obvious than that between spiritual and temporal matters. Yet whenever they have been made objects of Legislation, they have clashed and contended with each other, till one or the other has gained the supremacy."
[James Madison in a letter to Thomas Jefferson Oct-Nov 1787]
@vyyle These Dominionists are claiming on the one hand that they are not being allowed to openly participate in society anymore and on the other hand promoting the Seven Mountain Strategy in which they say they will take over family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business and government.
''This country seemed to have nothing to do with God''
That is false. The founders believed in a God - Nature's God, not the God of any religion including the Bible. They referred to God many times even in their personal papers and wills.
@jfsfrnd A: wtf are you talking about, and B: the founding father's personal religions are irrelevant. They virtually all supported and created a distinctly secular government with the intention of keeping it secular. That people are trying to go back and force religion into government is in fact going against the exact views and desires that the founding fathers expressed.
@vyyle 2- no religion and the next second it is used to denote neutrality. So which is it? I took my other posts off, but you have them and can comment on them.
I have no way to put them back. The 1828 Websters Dictionary definition of secular says, ''The secular concerns of life respect making making provision for the support of life, the preservation of health, the temporal prosperity of men, of states, &c. . . .''
@vyyle 4 - I know, the government is ''the people'' - don't go there. I'm not removing my posts again. By country I meant a geographical area containing people vs. the laws of government, a part of the country. If the laws are not secular - without religion, then some religious entity would be creating them and using their own religious documents and beliefs to create them.
I still say the Dominionists have to be countered at any cost.
@vyyle 3 - . . .Secular power is that which superintends and governs the temporal affairs of men, the civil or political power; and is contradistinguished from spiritual or ecclsiastical power.''
So does the term 'secular' mean no religion or does it imply neutrality? Or does it depend on how it is used?
I would also add that religious freedom includes the right to not believe or follow any religion.
@BiblePreacher889 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. - 1 John 4:20
Let me guess! You're a troll, not really a Christian. I didn't think so.
"The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." --Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, 1796--
ThePhantom135 1 month ago 2
@ThePhantom135 Exactly and George Washington and others signed it.
RhondaH 2 weeks ago
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policeexplorer326 2 months ago
America was founded by people that wanted to get away from religious oppression.
why do people believe God is predestined? and also I believe praying is not just asking things from (God) but also getting pain off your chest when you think or say words out loud. or put you high spirits when you feel down. (sometimes 4 me its a time when I can hear the words myself it doesn't always have to be about God)
UkexP 2 months ago
@MrMasterMinecraftMan The earth was created by God
elibeth121 3 months ago
how am i wrong? your almost repeating what i said exept i didnt call Christianity a fairytale or sky people as you put it. atheism dont preach anything exept they dont believe in a creator, and that there is no God, i said that and you agreed so since were both in agreement of that then i ask again..what am i wrong about? structure and order was created otherwise therre'd be kayos. fact is we live in a funcioning world of structure and order and i find it impossible for there to not be a God.
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
i have trouble understanding why athiest are so bent on disproving God? if they dont believe then they dont believe so why should they care any further and spend so much time and put so much effort into proving something dont exist? it just seems completly irrational. Christians celebrate salvation and eternal life but what do atheists celebrate, light turning to black and turning to dirt and then no more existence? it makes sense to talk about existence(God) but not non existence(nothingness)
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@dirtyjew1974 Legislation is being passed based on Christian beliefs. This is why. Well, one of the main reasons.
icarus212001 3 months ago
@icarus212001 although im Christian by belief i dont believe anyone should be forced to believe in it and the bible teaches free will anyway but i will say this, theres no doubt that the core values of Christianity are good values weather you believe in God and Christ or not and if everyone went by these core values then many of the attrocities that have taken place wouldnt have so the values are still an asset no matter whats believed. read the teachings of Christ and youll see what i mean!
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@icarus212001 an example of those teaches, last week i baught a drink and gave them a 10$ and they gave me back change for a 20' so i got a free drink and more money than i gave in return. they turned and walked away. well they didnt think anymore about it but i saw they gave me too much. i told them and they checked and was supprised i didnt rip them off. i was low on money and couldve kept it but i couldnt feel good about myself doing that so i kept it honest.
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@icarus212001 and its teachings like that that would make the world a better place and people nicer to be around
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
Our constitution guarantees the freedom of religion. NOT the freedom to not have one.
policeexplorer326 3 months ago
@policeexplorer326 Another fascist/ religious douche-bag!
somethingdiffereable 3 months ago
@somethingdiffereable Says the loser who clearly cant think of anything clever to say. You're a waste of my time.
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
The founding father weren't christians. Most had the belief that theocracy is the dumbest way that a nation shall be established. No church should have influence over the government.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago 5
@yomamasapeach "To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." George Washington
"America was founded on no theology....but Christianity." John Hancock
"God who gave us life gave us liberty." Jefferson
Every founding father professed Christianity. It is your biased atheistic texts which falsely say otherwise.
policeexplorer326 3 months ago
@policeexplorer326 Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society. wash
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach Your quotations are egregiously irrelevant in determining the role in faith in the founding of our country. I have read the entire texts in which these statements are made. Washington and Adams, as determined in the 1892 Supreme Court ruling, supported a nation deemed Christian. The issue however, was of how the Christian principles may impede on a nation's free will to religion.
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
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policeexplorer326 2 months ago
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@yomamasapeach This is known as the Seperation of Church and State. The modern conception of which is entirely construed. When we examine documents (as i have in both the NARA and Library of Congress), it is salient that the purpose of this philosophy is not relevant in judging what theological foundation may be present, but the role of which what foundation may be applied to the governance of our society.
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@yomamasapeach This, not the presence of any theological rudiment as it would pertain to the founding of our country,is the thesis of these quotations.
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@policeexplorer326 The founding fathers knew that the majority of the country was of christian faith and that many were believers in god, but they knew if they were to right a constitution that was purely based on god, a theocratic constitution, the country would not grow as a place of religous freedom or democracy because later on, there would be other beliefs other than just god and they believed this very truly.
yomamasapeach 2 months ago
@yomamasapeach That's just the kind of thing I would expect from a neandertal cop. Not ALL but MOST cops are complete mindless douche-bags and for your information the founding fathers were less religious than any of the douche-bags that are front runners for the presidency. There is no such thing as god. Religion is for mindless morons and people who don't know how to think for themselves.
somethingdiffereable 2 months ago
@somethingdiffereable Yes, God is not an existant being because there is no real proof of truth in what is written. As for the founding fathers, they did have a religous background but compared to most they would be considered as agnostics. Religion is more of a mind control method for sheep, nothing but brainless sheep who don't like to see the light of day.
yomamasapeach 2 months ago
@yomamasapeach Agnostic!!!??? Wow, you clearly are ignorant of history!!! Study history before you vomit this filth!!!
yoursola 2 months ago
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policeexplorer326 2 months ago
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policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@yomamasapeach Wahington however, wanted to LIMIT the impact a theological Constitution may have on rights implored by the government. The basis for this debacle between founding fathers consisted of this very proportion. The country was founded on faith, the text for the Constitution based on it, yet the concern over the Church-or predominant religion of the time- taking advantage of this is the entire thesis of the precept cemented as the "seperation of Church and State"
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@policeexplorer326 Jefferson wrote the vast majority of the constitution with some help by John Adams and others. Washington had little to do with it and was primarily a General in the Army (which was after the constitution was already written). Washington was not sworn in as president until 1789. Jefferson wrote the seperation of church and state into the 1st amendment of the constitution. T. Jefferson "the bible is a dunghill"! John Adams "The United states of is in no way a christion country"
somethingdiffereable 2 months ago
@somethingdiffereable Jefferson had nothing to do with the writing of the constitution. He was in France at the time. I dont mean any disrespect but you do need to review the facts because you are misinformed.
skydive7273x 2 months ago
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policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@somethingdiffereable JEFFERSON DID NOT WRITE THE CONSTITUTION. He wrote the Declaration of Independence. Your time in this debate is over.
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@policeexplorer326 When they say a country such as the united states with high amounts of christians, the government knew that if we made a church like state, the country would crash. Also, the constitution wasn't written for religion, but after the magna carta and the rule of law which states that no one is above the law, not even the church and for the freedom of expression and to protect your freedom of religion.
yomamasapeach 2 months ago
@yomamasapeach Most of which, i do not disagree with you on. BUT, the Constitution clearly was written for religion. Not for any one in particular, but for all so that not one may be discriminated against. The Constitution itself takes the stance that there IS a God. It states that what rights we have the the government is unable to impose upon were derived from the very christian God you deny. Our country was founded on a Christian Constituion.
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@yomamasapeach However, it was founded on the belief, also, that not all Americans have to be of that affiliation. It states that we may have the freedom of religion, or as Gouverneur Morris put it "the liberty to choose that which religion we belong to." Furthermore, the Constitution does not recognize nonreligion as religion. Thus, under the Constitution, and as stated by Morris who oversaw the drafting of the Constitution, the freedom NOT to have one doesn't exist.
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@policeexplorer326 You have the wrong reading. The constiution allows the freedom of religion, but no national establishments. "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed" James Madison. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof 1st ammendment
yomamasapeach 2 months ago
@yomamasapeach Again, you are confusing historical fact. The Constitution only recognizes religion. Gouverneur Morris made that clear to Adams before he allowed it to be drafted. You're right, the constitution does allow freedom of religion (notice it doesnt say freedom not to have one) and prohibits the national establishment thereof. Go to the National Archives. Find Jefferson's recording of Gouverneur Morris' address to the Founding fAthers....
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@yomamasapeach In Philadelphia, Feb. 16, i believe. Things will become clearer for you. The free exercise thereof means the right to exercise/advocate for/ and choose ones own religion. Note it does not include the right to NOT to have a religion. The Constituional philosophy that is the Seperation of Church and State as you apply it in this debate, is entirely irrelevant as this was done to protect the free exercise of religion, not the free exercise of not having one
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@policeexplorer326 Yet we are on the debate that the constitution is based on christianity and as we see, christianity is not the only religion and just because the rights say we can practise religion, doesn't mean that you lose them when you don't have one, but they simply don't apply. If you have no religion then you don't practise and the constitution protects you from persecution of your practise. Your argument is wrong in all context. Yet the gov't has no say in religion, vice versa.
yomamasapeach 2 months ago
@yomamasapeach Just because Christianity is not the only religion, does not mean the Constitution was not based on Christianity. You have no historical data to back what you say. It is salient in the Constitution that it gives us the right to choose what religion we affiliate ourselves with. No where does it say we may not be affiliated with one. During the time the Constitution was written, many were imprisoned for being "indifferent" to religion.
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@yomamasapeach Furthermore, official NARA documentation of the Feb. 16, 1774, i believe, it is decided under the persuasion of Morris that the lack of belief in any religion will not be recognized in the Constitution, as, during that time, it was often associated with witchcraft. It is unclear whether they deemed witchcraft or nonreligion as being a threat to the establishment of any religion, but it is salient they closely correlated the two. Until you do proper research in....
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@yomamasapeach ...this matter and spend the amount of time vested in the historical texts as existent in the national Archives, as i have, you have not the credentials to comment any further, as all you can offer the debate is that of your own biased perspective, and opinionated interpretation of the Constitution.
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@policeexplorer326 I have shown you tect from the constitution and the people who have written it and you have furthermore disregarded them for your own belief that the constitution was written on the basis of christianity because the constitution recognizes any religion but does not base the law of the land on the laws of christianity. That would be like an example of saudi arabia, theocratical government which is not the U.S foundation but democracy and liberty are.
yomamasapeach 2 months ago
@policeexplorer326 a) non-religion and witchcraft have nothing to do with one another.
b) Jefferson, Franklin, Adams and very possibly more of the Founding Fathers were secularists. Some weren't Christian.
c) Freedom of speech plus right to assembly equals allowance for non-religion.
YaleBreaker 1 month ago
@policeexplorer326 Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, [the people, in the 1st Amendment,] declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. Thomas jefferson wrote this in 1802.
yomamasapeach 2 months ago
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policeexplorer326 2 months ago
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@yomamasapeach They DID right a Constitution around many Biblical principles. The Supreme Court even deemed it. Files in the NARA and LOC back it up. Gouverneur Morris of PA. refused to draft the constitution if it did not find it self accountable to the "unalienable rights" GOD has granted us. However, you are confused as to how this translates into legal, and Constitutional coherence in government.
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@policeexplorer326 *write
policeexplorer326 2 months ago
@policeexplorer326 Article XI of the declaration of independance.
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?
John adams
The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State James madison
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach John Adams and his son John Quincy Adams 1st and 6th presidentsof the U.S. lived about 2 miles from where live in Quincy Ma. The estate is still there and it is a tourist attraction which remains in it's original state. The house where both of them were born is about 4 miles from here and still remains also.
somethingdiffereable 3 months ago
@somethingdiffereable Cool
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach Yeah, it's called peacefield. It's about 5 or 6 acres in the rich section of Quincy on Adams st. They filmed part of the movie "Amistad" there. And they also filmed the 5 part HBO series on John Adams there.Both Adam's and Abigail are buried at the Universal Unitarian church in Quincy center. It's a good stop if you are ever in the Boston area.
somethingdiffereable 3 months ago
@somethingdiffereable Man, I would love to visit there one day, Definetely one place I would love to visit if I am ever in Massachusetts.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach the pilgrims founded this nation w/mayflower compact which was a pact w/God. also george washington our president honored God. :)
MegaGangstaparadise 3 months ago
@MegaGangstaparadise yet he did not want to found the nation on god. The nation was founded on the principles of the magna carta written by King John in 1215 and the liberties which they thought for. Unlike the rulers of Europe who said they had earned power from God, the president believed that the people should pick their leader. Even though pilgrims came to the new world to escape persecution, many other people without belief came too. America is founded on liberty and justice.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach so did Christianity fall from the sky to get here then? no many were Christians, maby not all but many were and they even gave thanks on the very first thanks giving and giving thanks isnt the athiest thing to do now is it.
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@dirtyjew1974 No, christianity is a belief that has been spread around by missionaries who spread the word of the lord. The bible was there book and thats all they read and all the dumb people of the world believed in it because the book is so threatening. Atheism is the knowledge that God doesn't exist and atheist do thanks. They thank the planet for providing food and providing a good atmosphere in which I can breath. No god did that, but a life cycle did.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach then if you wanna call them missionaries thats fine but back then they were also the founding fathers to be more accurate. everyone didnt know how to get here man, the founding fathers learned from the indians sat down for the first thanksgiving and gave thanks not to the rocks and dirt but to God, its that plain and that simple. atheism is the knowledge of nothing because thats what its the belief in..nothingness and giving thanks to the planet for food is paganism not atheism.
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach the founder of the american athiest organisation madaline ohair was murdered along with her son and grand daughter by american atheist manager david waters...honor among people with no moral foundation i suppose. Christians on the other hand have commandments and build a foundation upon the bible and knowledge that God exists and wants them to love and honor their fellow man. now people always at times do things they shouldnt but i never heard of this in billy grahams ministry
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@dirtyjew1974 Yet time and time again priest have been shown to rape boys, christian fundamentalist going on a rampage, catholics kill christians and protestants and not to mention jews. The truth of the matter is that if your loving "God" existed, there wouldn't be a genocide of the jews because he would save them. Sadly he didn't and 6 million jews died with no help until the allies won. You tell me this, when your people stop believing in sky people, atheist will accept you.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach I think youll find a huge difference between conventional christianity and catholosism for start, the founding fathers came to America to escape religious percecution from guess who? The church of England aka Catholics.im not about to deny atrocities by the catholic church with the forced conversions and perversion with children but the bible teaches free will unlike the teachings by catholics at that time, bible also dont promote raping children. humans have free will,its a gift
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach and the whole genecide thing is mans sin againsed man and since God gave man free will thens its man who is mans problem. for example if you pay someones way out of jail everytime they get arrested then their never gonna learn anything. People treat God like a vending machine and think they only need him when its convenient for them but it dont work that way. and it was 6 million jews that parished, not every single one so we were saved. untill the end evil will always be around
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@dirtyjew1974 You are saying that but God knew that man would do that. He didn't like the egyptians enslaving so he sent a saviour but when 6 million jews die and their heavenly father who they look up to doesn't give a damn, it looks like he might not even be their like he used to. "God" is if you say an ass. He doesn't want you to have knowledge, like in adam and eve and if you don't believe in him he will send you to a bad place but loves you. God ain't real and neither is zeus.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach the fact that people die because other people kill them dont prove that God dont care nor does it disprove his existence, the only think it does is prove mans uncarinig and man can do better whenever man wants. this life isnt the only life and we will live on even after death when we enter another life. death isnt the end and many will live a great afterlife but many will not. God makes more sense to me than the big bang where matter began because matter blew up
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach much of man kind wants God out of the equasion all together such as goverment because they dont wanna live by a standard. when they leave that out of the equasion as if they dont need it then why is he going to help out mankind who deny him as far as todays concerned? God allows things to happen for a reason and its not up to understand what all those reasons are, its like a bug trying to comprehend us the ones of superior intellegence, its just not going to happen
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@dirtyjew1974 That is totally irrelevant. Countries that have theocracies are the ones where there are far more crime and social injustice. For example, Saudi Arabia, women can't drive/ must wear vail. Iran, Stoned to death by law. In some places, religion is taught and not science. You keep saying God does things for a reason but the truth is that there is no evidence of God. When you mix religion and government, countries fall. Also, we are probably ants in the eyes of a alien race.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach then i have to also argue that your point is irrelevant considering saudi arabia isnt a Christian counry but muslim nor are Christian woman made to wear head dressings so you cant make a point about Christian Principles in the U.S by using saudi arabian woman as your example. and also aliens dont live hear nor vote anyway so im not sure where you were going with that one but atleast that statement was confusing if nothing else lol
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@dirtyjew1974 Yet a christian theocracy is just as dangerous. Look at Bush, he was a firm believer in Jesus and God and he believed that Saddam was the antichrist and he tore the country apart. Pure theocracies tend to fail because they aren't able to support human rights. The "good book" speaks of many deeds which would be considered otherwise offensive in todays society. The government should give religous freedom but no authority in decisions.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach so tell me excactly what it was that bush did in particular. he didnt think saddam to be the antichrist so im not sure exactly where it is your getting your information. as far as approval in just 2 years obamas ratings went lower than bushes and obama isnt a Christian. now if you wanna talk about troops over seas as your argument for bush tearing apart a country then my answer is that bush hasnt been in office for 3 years now and troops are still there.
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach lets keep in mind that bush was in office for 8 years so what obama did in getting his own approval ratings even lower was quiet an impressive feat, especially considerinng he did it in just 2 years. another thing is bush was a war time presedent so atleast thats a more valid reason to get lower ratings and yet obama isnt considered a war time presedent and still got his ratings even lower and you wanna talk bush tearing a country up. he did his best under the war circumstances.
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@dirtyjew1974 Man, are you wrong. There was no war, this was all a set up by Bush to enter Iraq for oil. There were no WMD's in Iraq and so quickly you christians and your delusions of God telling you there are didn't work, instead thounsands of American troops die. You want to know war time,WWI, WWII and the cold war. That wasn't a real war, the U.S won it after shock and awe. After war son, God is really just another fairy tale.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach so you say im wrong and there was no war and then you go on to say thousands of American troops die...so which one is it because you cant have it both ways. and what realavance is what all that in relation to what my last message was anyway? ww1,ww2 millions died so yeah id say those were wars, there sure wasnt mass suicides.
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach you can refere to Christianity and God as a fairy tale to your hearts content but millions if not billions believe in a creater. athiesm is the belief in nothing so the athiests argument is just that...nothing
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@dirtyjew1974
"athiesm is the belief in nothing"
No, that's nihilism.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a God or Gods.
WaltonSauce 3 months ago 2
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@dirtyjew1974
"but millions if not billions believe in a creater"
Truth is truth regardless of whether people believe it or not, how many people believe something has no effect on the claim itself.
Reality is that which does not go away when people stop believing in it.
WaltonSauce 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach which also means atheism stands for nothing and nothing is the foundation for the atheists argument.
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@dirtyjew1974 Wrong, atheist don't believe in fairy tales which were written 2000 years ago in the desert. The foundation is the truth which atheist know. Christianity isn't based on facts, nor is islam or judaism, budhism, hinduism, sikhism. Atheism are people with no god or sky daddy.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach and why would it not be logical to say that life creates life? living man created by a living God makes more sense to me than saying matter began because matter blew up(big bang)because that goes back to the same question(how did matter begin). I dont think matter began from nothing, from total absense. there is and always was a consciense(God)world was created by desiegn and if theres a design then theres a designer.im the alpha and the omega,begging and end...God.
dirtyjew1974 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach what are you talking about? lol you should stop, you dont make good arguments and i cant believe hes still arguing you about this lol
anselmochevelle 3 months ago
@anselmochevelle What can I say, he is a stubborn religious person who doesn't understand the truth.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach like youve done a few times with him i think youve misenturpeted what said lol. honestly he could make the same argument about you, that your a stubborn non believer who dont understand or dont want to understand the truth and he did give several constructive reasons as to why he thinks the way he thinks, especially about why he thinks theirs a God. I think he makes a good point about why its more likely God exists than dont exist.
anselmochevelle 3 months ago
@anselmochevelle Yes, and very well to him. I approve that he has the right to have his own opinion on the existence of God. But as you are the mediator, your own bias cannot be taken into consideration because the topic is one that is very biased. Our original conversation was about how any countries with church and state don't do as well as ones with no connection. He also took many of my words and twisted them to his liking, which I very much disagree with.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach im not being bias between you and him, thats your assumtion but i am on the hand saying i do agree more with what hes saying. i think your misinterpreting much of what he said more so than him twisting what your saying and you also misenterpreted me earlier. maby a little miscomunication between you two also. the seperation of church and state is meant to keep the state out of the church, not the other way around. pilgrims came here escaping religious percecution.
anselmochevelle 3 months ago
@anselmochevelle Yes, but the terms of your beliefs create a bias toward the argumenter. You are right in the way that I may be misinterperating what he is saying but in the same way he is too. Also, you are wrong about how the state interupts the church, it simply says no interaction so the government can't control religion and religion can't control the government. America was founded by pilgrims, immigrants, natives, merchants and the people, not a church.
yomamasapeach 3 months ago
@yomamasapeach the people who origionally came and established themselves were people of Christian values, they were praying believing people and the evendence of that was there even years after. praying to begine political gatherins even till today. those values didnt stem from atheism and that cant be argued.
anselmochevelle 2 months ago
@anselmochevelle Yes but the whole founding of the new world was done by the countries to set out for their home countries in the search for gold, land and other resources. When pilgrims left they came to escape religous persecution. In Spain, the inquisition was caused by the mixing of church and state and the U.S realized that wasn't the way to go, so they decided no binding of the two. Thats why there is no church of the U.S, England had one, France, Italy but not the U.S
yomamasapeach 2 months ago
That...That... today junior!
Devialx10 4 months ago
Love how atheists try to rewrite history...
dex1391 4 months ago
@dex1391 I don't understand what you mean? how are atheists rewriting history?
parkerthehicks 4 months ago
@parkerthehicks
Read a history book NOT written by Dawkins.
dex1391 4 months ago
@dex1391 ok done, now can you explain how atheists are rewriting history?
parkerthehicks 4 months ago
@parkerthehicks
What book did you read?
dex1391 4 months ago
@dex1391 John Merriman's " A History of Modern Europe"
parkerthehicks 4 months ago
@parkerthehicks
And did it tell the same BS that atheists claim about US origins?
dex1391 4 months ago
@dex1391 I don't know exactly what you're referring to, but yes, in general it did describe how both christians and non christians formed this country and how the religious policy of the united states was specifically designed to grant religious freedoms.
parkerthehicks 4 months ago 2
I bear witness to thee! God hath sucketh thy dick, and he hath seen that it is good!
Grominx 5 months ago
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God is a spirit, an immaterial conscious being. All things in the universe consists of matter and/or energy, so if God isn't matter, is energy by definition. Energy is the capacity to do work, is eternal, omnipresent, wasn't created and can't be destroyed, can create matter, was the only thing present before the BB, and the energy required to make the universe must had been powerful. All these match Biblical descriptions of God. He wants us to elevate our consciousness to the next level, is real
dejesusluisx 5 months ago
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816
Christian founders... indeed.
TheWonderDoc 5 months ago
@TheWonderDoc the quote just shows that Jefferson didn't believe in the Trinity (like many Unitarian Christians). Supposedly the Trinity is a Catholic construct which is not even mentioned in the Bible.
Jefferson edited his own version of the bible. He just cherry picked the parts that he liked and left out parts that he didn't like. I think he was a "christian" of sorts (small "c") but when it came to matters of politics he was, like almost ALL of America's founders, a staunch secularist.
hardinmichael1981 5 months ago
@hardinmichael1981 He had a number of quotes in regards to religion and christianity in particular, many are contradictory when viewing as a whole but I imagine must have been discoveries or influences in debate, etc. I took this quote to mean him speaking by analogy, instead of literally,but you could very well be right.
I agree that the founders were staunch secularists. They still had the bad taste in their mouth from the church of england.
TheWonderDoc 5 months ago
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
Christian founders... indeed.
TheWonderDoc 5 months ago
Funny ,,,because that what they said in the days of Noah,,,and Sodom And Gomorrah...Last,,Christs return will come like a thief in the night.And you will know in the hour its all ready happened by utter chaos every-where,,,then if you happen to live through that,,You get your mark from your new God you will be forced to pledge allegiance too,then world peace for 3 1/2 years ,then Armageddon i highly doubt you live through,then you go straight to hell,the judgement day for you,and hell forever..
flatop59 5 months ago
@ithaslotion Read the Deuteronomy - you'll probably be surprised.
kozinc 5 months ago
Gods universal order is his way in politics ect... It says his ways are higher then ours. Who are we to question what its fair or not ??? God is eternal and also says i change not!!! Whether we believe it or not, he is in control of everything! As for Noah,they were warned, but mocked Noah. Sodom & Gomorrah too, and today the warning is still in affect...Judgments are already in play" hurricanes,earthquakes famines getting worse by the day...The bible nails it!! If don't see it yr blind!
flatop59 6 months ago
@flatop59 Nah. Don't see any of that nonsense because people HAVE BEEN SAYING IT FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS! I am so sick and tired of blind religists telling us the end is just around the corner. It's not. Get over it. Jesus isn't coming back. IF he existed - and that's doubtful - he's been dead 2000 years. And we haven't had a single speck of evidence for him or God since. So don't hold your breath, flatop. It's all a waste of your time and ours.
carmium 5 months ago
@ithaslotion
are u serious ur god killed everyone in the world supposedly other than noah and his family.
what happened to thou shall not kill
harrysmc1 6 months ago
a lighthouse is more useful then a church,, Benjamin Franklin
bronco78040 6 months ago
This country was founded by unwashed, drunken, slave owning, Native American slaughtering, potheads. who's idea of "Freedom and Equality" applied only if you were white and male.
KarlXHungus 6 months ago
"I do not believe that any type of religion should ever be introduced into the public schools of the United States."
-Thomas A. Edison
jgroves56 7 months ago
“The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.” – John Adams
But I guess none of these were Founders (and contemporaries) either, in your eyes?
Rokrevthin 7 months ago
@Rokrevthin
"There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle in religion. Its least interference with it would be a most flagrant usurpation." James Madison
"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian Religion." treaty of tripoli, passed by the senate in 1797 and signed by George Washington
Quote mining is hard, you have to Google and everything! and it proves stuff, right?
vyyle 7 months ago
@Rokrevthin the fact that these men were christians is not in contention. This is what both you and basically everyone who tries to claim that the US was founded a 'christian nation' fail to understand.
we KNOW that they were christians. We accept that. we do not try to claim to the contrary.
We also understand exactly what kind of nation they tried to set up, and it most certainly was NOT a christian one.
The fact that the founding fathers were christian is entirely irrelevant to this argument.
vyyle 7 months ago
@Rokrevthin Another thing you don't understand is that there is a MASSIVE difference between a "christian nation" and "a nation made up of mostly christians."
I would not argue with you if you tried to claim that the US is, and always has been, the latter, because you would be right.
You are, however, trying to claim the former, and you need only read the first amendment to know otherwise.
vyyle 7 months ago
@Rokrevthin
Then the late Mr. Adams must have had a different copy of the bible than anybody else. Last I checked, I didn't see anything in the bible that gave people the right to overthrow their king, or that the authority of a government comes from the consent of the governed.The Bible, on the contrary, always supported the belief in the divine right of kings, teaches that kings are appointed by god himself, and made it a sin to disobey or turn against one's ruler.
logik316 6 months ago
“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.” – George Washington
“Education is useless without the Bible. The Bible was America’s basic text book in all fields. God’s Word, contained in the Bible, has furnished all necessary rules to direct our conduct.” – Noah Webster
“We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.” – John Adams and John Hancock
Rokrevthin 7 months ago
@Rokrevthin "The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."
alltiedup217 7 months ago
@alltiedup217
Well said.
wl0883 7 months ago
@Rokrevthin So why don't you cite where those quotes originated? What document, paper, letter, are they in?
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@vyyle
This "infant" was there with every Founder capable of reproving him or correcting him -- none did. In fact, he was held up in his commentaries, supported by the Founder's words and actions, and encouraged to continue that line of reasoning... that this nation was a CHRISTIAN nation.
Choose not to accept truth, that's your right -- but it makes you no less wrong.
Rokrevthin 7 months ago
(cont) In his commentary of the First Amendment's original meaning, Justice Joseph Story clarified:
The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects [denominations] and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government.
~ Sounds really anti-Christian in scope & application, huh? We were founded a Christian nation.
Rokrevthin 7 months ago
(cont) It may well be asked, what is there in all this, which is positively enjoined, inconsistent with the spirit or truths of the religion of Christ? Are not these truths all taught by Christianity, although it teaches much more? Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?
Rokrevthin 7 months ago
(cont) Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament, without note or comment, be read and taught as a Divine Revelation in the [school -- its general precepts expounded, its evidences explained and its glorious principles of morality inculcated? What is there to prevent a work, not sectarian, upon the general evidences of Christianity, from being read and taught in the college by lay teachers?
Rokrevthin 7 months ago
(cont) Why may not laymen instruct in the general principles of Christianity as well as ecclesiastics... And we cannot overlook the blessings, which such [lay]men by their conduct, as well as their instructions, may, nay must, impart to their youthful pupils.
Rokrevthin 7 months ago
In 1844 case of Vidal v. Girard's Executors, Justice Joseph Story delivered the United States Supreme Court's unanimous opinion:
Christianity... is not to be maliciously and openly reviled arid blasphemed against, to the annoyance of believers or the injury of the public... It is unnecessary for us, however, to consider the establishment of a school or college, for the propagation of... Deism, or any other form of infidelity. Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country...
Rokrevthin 7 months ago
@vyyle:
Perhaps you should do some more research:
In Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833, Vol. III, Justice Joseph Story declared:
It yet remains a problem to be solved in human affairs, whether any free government can be permanent, where the public worship of God, and the support of religion, constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape.
Rokrevthin 7 months ago
@Rokrevthin 1: this man is not a founding father; he was an infant when the rev. war was fought and a child when the constitution was ratified. even if he were, I'd remain unimpressed with your quote mining, as the VIEWS of the founders are not as important or as relevant as their actions, which were to set up to be a secular government, "where the public worship of god, and the support of religion, constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape."
vyyle 7 months ago
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jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@vyyle ''where the public worship of god, and the support of religion, constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape''
Yeah, your statement doesn't imply no ''public worship of god, and the support of religion'', it implies that the worship and support of religion can't be a policy of the state.
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@jfsfrnd ...my statement probably implies that because that's exactly what I meant.
vyyle 7 months ago
@vyyle There are some Christians claiming today that it only goes one way - not both ways - the state can't control the church, but the church can have influence on the state. Funny.
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@jfsfrnd unfortunately, they would be correct. the church has as much right to try to influence the state and the people of the nation as any other organization.
While I agree with you that the "dominionists" you speak of are immoral and should be countered, it is unfortunately the people's job to do so, and not the government's.
vyyle 7 months ago
@vyyle So you think that the wall of separation only goes one way? So which religious groups have the right to influence government with their personal belief systems? You just contradicted yourself. First you said that ''the worship and support of religion can't be a policy of the state'', then you say that ''the church'' has a ''right try to influence the state and the people of the nation as any other organization''.
How do these two statements not contradict each other?
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@jfsfrnd No, I didn't contradict myself, you're just not understanding what I'm saying. All religious organizations have a right that is equal to both each other and that of non-religious organizations to try to influence the government. That means indirectly, ie. through the people, through press, through petitions, etc.
Their right to petition government does not come from their religious origin. But their religious origin does not deny them their right to petition government.
vyyle 7 months ago
@vyyle Yeah but the government is not supposed to allow them to get laws passed that favor one religious belief over another or no belief.
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@jfsfrnd I agree...and that's exactly the point I've been making.
Once again, the religions have the same right to petition government as every other type of organization. But the government cannot respond in such a way as to interfere with religion. Thus, it's a one way street.
vyyle 7 months ago
@vyyle No, that is opposite the point you are making.
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@jfsfrnd I don't think you understand what the point I'm making is, which is:
A religious organization can make a secular petition to the government (for example, regarding a zoning issue), and the government must evaluate that request as though it came from a non-religious organization. to do otherwise would actually violate the first amendment.
vyyle 7 months ago
@vyyle What about abortion? (taking the other side)
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@jfsfrnd in the case of abortion pt1, Religious organizations have a right to petition government to see their point of view. However, the government's decision must be based on decision that is devoid of religious doctrine or beliefs that cannot be defended with secular reasoning.
the argument that "abortion is bad because the bible says so" is not entirely religious.
vyyle 7 months ago
@vyyle So why can't the government pay for abortions. They're legal. What is the secular reasoning behind the ban?
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@jfsfrnd there's a difference between the government saying that you can do something and the government paying to do it. That is why the 'ban' as you call it is legal. There is no secular reason that the government cannot or should not pay for an abortion. However, while not paying for it might restrict the access to abortions, it does not prohibit them, and as such, does not violate a person's rights.
that said; I do disagree with the government on this issue.
vyyle 7 months ago
@vyyle Yeah me too.
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@jfsfrnd abortion pt2. On the other hand, a secular argument could be made for "life begins at conception." I don't agree with that statement (partly because 60% of all fertalized eggs fail to implant and are spontaneously aborted), but it could be defended without ever mentioning the belief in god, and you do not require a religion to agree with this concept.
as such, government would be free to debate abortion using this bullet point, and they have, and they've decided it's not sufficient.
vyyle 7 months ago
@vyyle I never said that the Dominionists ''are immoral'' and I never implied that the government should do anthing to counter them.
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
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@vyyle And what about this:
"No distinction seems to be more obvious than that between spiritual and temporal matters. Yet whenever they have been made objects of Legislation, they have clashed and contended with each other, till one or the other has gained the supremacy."
[James Madison in a letter to Thomas Jefferson Oct-Nov 1787]
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
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jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@vyyle These Dominionists are claiming on the one hand that they are not being allowed to openly participate in society anymore and on the other hand promoting the Seven Mountain Strategy in which they say they will take over family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business and government.
/watch?v=fQQYmMIPMNQ
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
"This country was founded on Christianity."
"This country was founded by Christians."
one of the above statements is mostly true.
They are both irrelevant.
vyyle 7 months ago
''This country seemed to have nothing to do with God''
That is false. The founders believed in a God - Nature's God, not the God of any religion including the Bible. They referred to God many times even in their personal papers and wills.
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@jfsfrnd A: wtf are you talking about, and B: the founding father's personal religions are irrelevant. They virtually all supported and created a distinctly secular government with the intention of keeping it secular. That people are trying to go back and force religion into government is in fact going against the exact views and desires that the founding fathers expressed.
vyyle 7 months ago
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jfsfrnd 7 months ago
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jfsfrnd 7 months ago
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jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@vyyle 2- no religion and the next second it is used to denote neutrality. So which is it? I took my other posts off, but you have them and can comment on them.
I have no way to put them back. The 1828 Websters Dictionary definition of secular says, ''The secular concerns of life respect making making provision for the support of life, the preservation of health, the temporal prosperity of men, of states, &c. . . .''
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@vyyle 4 - I know, the government is ''the people'' - don't go there. I'm not removing my posts again. By country I meant a geographical area containing people vs. the laws of government, a part of the country. If the laws are not secular - without religion, then some religious entity would be creating them and using their own religious documents and beliefs to create them.
I still say the Dominionists have to be countered at any cost.
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
@vyyle 3 - . . .Secular power is that which superintends and governs the temporal affairs of men, the civil or political power; and is contradistinguished from spiritual or ecclsiastical power.''
So does the term 'secular' mean no religion or does it imply neutrality? Or does it depend on how it is used?
I would also add that religious freedom includes the right to not believe or follow any religion.
I posted this to another person, sorry.
jfsfrnd 7 months ago
All the idiots who can't get God's cock out of their mouth need to look up the Treaty of Tripoli.
wl0883 7 months ago
@wl0883 I actually did, and it was an excellent bit of trivia that I'm very happy to have read.
vyyle 7 months ago
@vyyle
You're welcome.
The keyword from the Treaty of Tripoli is "unanimously". I just wish the god fuckers would get this in their narrow-minded and ignorant minds.
wl0883 7 months ago
Just make the "help me God" bit optional.
How freaking hard is it?
vinniechan 8 months ago
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@BiblePreacher889 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. - 1 John 4:20
Let me guess! You're a troll, not really a Christian. I didn't think so.
jimmo42 9 months ago