Champagne Lifestyles: The Changing Notion of Greed

[desch41n]

Jeez, you folks are dim.

What he's saying (pretty straightforwardly) is that we need to overcome environmental and social problems with MORE technology, MORE development and MORE growth.

What we shouldn't do is use these surmountable problems as an excuse to just give up on civilization and start cutting back people's living standards. As a lot of environmentalists want us to: wailing that the proles are breeding too much, eating too much meat, buying too many cars, etc., etc.

[titowasagoodman1980]

What the hell was he trying to say? He just went on an eloquent rant about the world's current economic/environmental quagmires. We all are responsible for the collective and systemic, historical destruction of society. How the hell does that realization destroy human initiative, innovation and free thinking? Doesn't such knowledge emancipate us from things that undermine our freedom? Like alienation and class hierarchy? This guy is supposed to be a Marxist....shame to left wing thought!!!

[Opiman000]

"ApPARently", this guy is full of crap.

That is all.

[gzX9bVq6k]

"We can quantify the deaths caused by both communism and fascism, but we will never know how many deaths have been the result of capitalism; of nothing more noble than a rich man wanting to be even richer, and sacrificing the health and lives of millions of workers to achieve this. Don't even try to count how many people capitalism has killed, because not only will you not know where to begin, but also it will never end." Ludwig von Mises

[rorylol]

In my opinion this is utter BS.

Trying to spread the blame so even the poor Chinese farmer gets some is absolutely insane.

It is a fact that the CEOs of the large American banks are taking record bonuses while the people that bailed them out are now feeling the full weight of the recession.

To make it short this guy comes at you with a lot of assumptions and what ifs but lacks any evidence for his claims.

[JCLeSinge]

Yeah, this is BS; this guy hops all over the place, switching soapboxes with every sentence. He's confusing the issue by throwing in multiple concepts, bolstering his argument through massive assumptions. He's basically camouflaging his main point, which is that he's defending excessive greed.

[gzX9bVq6k]

No reasonable person could say a Jew would be wrong to feel unsafe or insecure in any  environment where holocaust denial is pervasive. That's why the middle classes the poor and the underprivileged have everything to fear from those who deny the lethality of free market capitalism considering that it claimed more lives than Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot. et al.

[JCLeSinge]

@gzX9bVq6k: RIght on! Brilliantly put. Funny how no one ever mentions the millions murdered by Capitalism...

[gzX9bVq6k]

When you mention "millions murdered by capilalism" that's a gross understatment.

[JCLeSinge]

Yes, I should have said billions. Thanks for sending that video; nice one.

[joel1923]

So I take it this guy is saying, in a round about way, "let them eat cake."

[670Kiester]

I don't think I agree with this guy.

Some restraint sounds like a good idea to me.

[wrongheadedfool]

This is just demonizing people he disagrees with. "Ooh, all those hippie leftists are just a bunch of earth-worshipping goofballs!"

I'm an atheist. I don't worship ANYTHING. Yet I criticize our current economic model and our rate of consumption because they're unsustainable and have negative consequences for our society and species. Instead of debating on the facts, this guy is using an ad hominem argument.

Fuck him.

[funkalunatic]

This video didn't seem to present a coherent thesis to me. 3 stars

[JasonMelancon]

The fact that it's fatuous to criticize Indians for buying refrigerators doesn't make greed, oppression, class war against the poor, or environmental devastation acceptable. This guy sounds like he's deflecting criticism away from his boss. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, right, little man?

[DonQuixotedeKaw]

What an utter waste of oxygen.

Not to mention 6 minutes.

[aido92]

He seems to totally miss the point that we live on a finite planet with finite resources. It isn't about punishing the human race, but protecting the future of our species. What could be more positive than that? His position is that we should have no regard for the future at all, and that to be asked to take responsibility for our actions is unacceptable. Perish the thought that we should actually learn from our mistakes, especially if it means he doesn't get everything that he wants.

[TheEvolver311]

@aido92 wow i haven't heard someone miss the point of a statement more than that. he wasn't saying that we shouldn't advocate for a ecofriendly society, he was commenting on the nature of the movement that exist.

[aido92]

@The Evolver311

I just rewatched the clip, and I absolutely stand by my comment. It seems to me that it is you that is missing the point. He isn't just commenting on the nature of the movement, he is criticising it's existence too. He is suggesting that the advocation of restraint is in some way reprehensible. His motive is revealed by that throwaway last line.

[JasonMelancon]

I agree with aido92. While it's possible to overemphasize individual responsibility in a society with limited choices, it's precisely this guy's linking THAT folly with the morally correct stance against greed and economic oppression that marks him as a commissar.

[joel1923]

@aido92 : I agree with you. Well said, aido92.

[13otany13ay]

1. He doesnt understand the modern greed/decadence motiv: It is about inefficient distribution of goods in a society caused by ignorance of the profiteers, not about sinfullness.

2. He doesnt understand the motiv of social common economicalness: Its about calculating the longterm-costs of goods instead of ignoring them.

3. He doesnt understand shit and talks incoherent nonsense that comes from nowhere and leads nowhere. This vid is a waste of time.

[Th3Wab3]

@13otany13ay point 1. is sound but it entails both... more so. i think his points are sound interms of shifting the blame to peasants' eg: chinese eating meat so on so forth these notions of justifiably suppressing poverty striken peoples, for the greater good; instead of changing ridiculous consumption in the west is valid.

[13otany13ay]

@Th3Wab3: The "Chinese-Eating-Meat" Remark is a strawman. Nobody says we shall eat meat, but the chinese should not. The original argument is that we can not all eat meat all the time, so our western lifestyle is not sustainable on a global scale, ergo, we live from the poverty of others. In a fair and efficient world we would eat less so that the chinese can eat more.

Again, the speaker in the vid mutters nonsense, falsehoods and BS.

[Th3Wab3]

i agree but those r not the things he mentioned if we are going to criticize we should at least stick to the presented topics. now: in relation to "champagne lifestyles" what he talks about is what is presented on television as factual causations yes they are strawmen but they are what is presented none the less as chomsky has said the public just needs a cause for the problem. it doesn't have to be true... i agree this is a poor attempts to identify the primary issues. but he does raise a flag

[666norton420]

@13otany13ay #3 was my favorite. lol

;d

[greatbroad]

The new edition this May:

"Unequal Protection; The rise of corporate dominance and theft of human rights," by Thom Hartmann

It is a new edition. He rewrote about 1/3 to "incorporate" the latest US Supreme Court ruling on corporate free political speech.

--Corporate Person hood has almost become the Giant (corp) in Jack & Beanstalk:

"Fe, fi, fo, fum. I smell the blood of an Englishman (human),

"Be he Live/dead,

"I'll grind his bones to make my bread ($)."

Amen

[Causa10bserver]

Isn't Thom Hartmann the leftist's version of Rush Limbaugh? You are referring to the radio guy, right?

[greatbroad]

@Causa10bserver

I imagine there are all kinds of labels for Hartmann. If you were to list all the books he has written, most of them are about ADD, ADHD, things like that. His fingers are in many pies.

What I love about Hartmann is his mind and how he thinks. If you would, listen a bit to his introduction of the older "corporate person hood book" on my video, "corporate person hood is a lie!" before you make up your mind.

[AtSwimTwoBricks]

He went to excess -- that last sentence was unnecessary and damages his message.

[Mastikator]

I don't think the problem is that people are living a life of excess and luxury, but that people are doing it even though they can't afford it. When consumption exceeds production then resources run out and eventually people are driven out to the streets. This is not "good for the economy", people have to stop believing that consumption drives the economy. It doesn't! It is destroying the economy!

And since people aren't gonna stop until it's too late, we're fucked.

[Th3Wab3]

@Mastikator lol sorry but consumption does drive the economy that is why we are fucked.. gdp is mearured by how much is spent. sadly being living for the longterm will bankrupt a lot of useless businesses. this is why the national policy promotes spending to get out of a recession. the whole system shoots itself in the foot because it work the the need of prepetual growth and that is beyond the earth capacity..

[Mastikator]

The Economy is not the velocity of resources, it's the sum of welfare of everyone. If everyone has less resources then the economy is worse. If everyone has enough to save up for a nice vacation then the economy is doing very good.

If the economy is just the rate of exchange but not how well people are doing then yes, consumption uber alles, but if it's welfare then production and saving is central to the economy. I prefer the latter as its outcome tend to be productive instead of destructive

[cha0sLovesFB]

I partly agree with barabg (I don't think it was 'profoundly stupid'), but I hope for the days when humans can effect positive change for themselves without having to attach it to some idealistic worldview or divinity (as his example the Puritans do/did)

[barabg]

Starts good but reaches an absolutely erroneous conclusions. Were not doing it for Gaia, were doing it for our own longevity. If you want to internalize it, were doing it to become more longsighted in our actions.

Thats was unfortunately profoundly stupid.

[namename654]

Good point. A greedy person can simply be a futurist survivalist. Like a person who wants to prepare for a food storage, and "greedily" stocks up on canned food. And how does greed compare with the concepts of rational self interest, materialism, and capitalism?

Granted, he does point out that when greed causes destruction that's bad. For example, accepting money for something from customers, and then not producing anything for the customers would be theft caused by greed.

[jaworski716]

@barabg whats the point in longevity if we can't be happy? I think this guy is talking about us having aspirations for the species.