The True Catholic Mass and The New Catholic Mass

[maple1212]

this is a very good video.

[AndrewKH85]

Neither are Biblical so they are completely worthless to Yhwh. What other importance could they be of? The inspired scriptures have identified the catholic entity as the whore of babylon. Why would you go against a 100% biblical accuracy and claim to be fighting for your savior? Your works are in vein.

[1rams123]

@AndrewKH85 I'm not here to play protestant/catholic apologetics with u. For anyone with good will, all the info is out there online to prove that Catholic Church is the one true church established by Christ, outside of which there is no salvation. But I will say this, the teachings of apostles and the New Testament embodied in the Mass and the Liturgy before they were ever written down. The Mass and the Catholic tradition is the context for the scriptures- and so without them u are in error.

[gbantock]

What a blessing it is, young man, to hear these words from someone of your generation (mine is that of "the War Years", predating the "Baby Boom"). At your age in my early to mid-twenties I went to Mass frequently, 3 or 4 times a week. In some ways the 1962 Mass gave me greater comfort and joy at these weekday early morning celebrations than on Sunday. The old Hispanic priest said the Latin impeccably & with great piety. Now who cares? The priests & the Novus Ordo itself are childish & futile!

[pfpnewhope]

Jesus is the norm, not the middle ages....

[cpmkw]

The nuttiness of this is EXACTLY WHY the reform was absolutely essential to retain any relevance whatsoever, and to continue to survive. If ancient, indirect dead language is what's important to you, it really betrays the shallowness & inanity of everything this is about. Get a grip. What are you even trying to do? Do you have any clue? What are your priorities, and what service do you seek to provide people? You didn't eve grow up when Latin masses were still being conducted. Very sad person.

[cpmkw]

The whole thing is arbitrary theater of wild eclecticism that betrays a legacy of pure politics. It doesn't take a genius or a religious scholar to figure out that something is screwy when someone neurotically insists that a ceremony worshipping a god, who used to be a Jewish man who spoke Aramaic, and delivered to (say) modern English speakers, should be conducted in the long-extinct language of his killers. The neurotic convolutions of logic are incredible. Has ZERO to do with spirituality.

[cpmkw]

What a pointless, pedantic waste. It never fails to amaze me how this circular contrived nonsense it taken by those immersed in it as serious intellectual activity.

Every bit of the nonsense you spout is based on perpetuating the the absurd oppressive tyranny that suggests that one man's (because sex is so important) and by extension his deputies' claim to ownership of a god myth should have some sway over or significance in the lives of every person on this planet. Such repellant BS. Absurd.

[TheDesertProphet454]

The New Mass in also the true Mass no matter what the goofy schismatics claim.

[lionel3fernandez]

Bravo Well Spoken

[SaorEire]

Thank you! lex orandi, lex credendi.

[jf3550]

Consider these Gospel quotes to reassure you that there is no heresy here.

Mt XVIII-20: For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

Mt XXV-40: whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

And my question. Which liturgy better gets where the holy of holies is to be located: the old one or the post Vatican II one.

[Classical0note]

When Islam adopts a pagan ritual or what so ever like the Ka Bah, they are not attacked from any side.... BUT we are... Reason: Protestants

[FraterNM]

Ive often noticed at Novus Ordo, alot is cut out from the new mass by the Priests themselves, for instance no Allelujah from chair to Gospel reading, the Priest often cuts out antiphons, etc. I became a Ruthenian Catholic due to this shortcutting of the Liturgy, I love an hour long daily Mass!!! Not 20 minutes. That being said there are numerous Holy Novus Ordo trained priests.

At N.O. Churches ttalking, lateness, and leaving early are epidemic! We need resurgence of ancient Liturgy not reform.

[DreamsofMajesty]

scribd (dot) com/nb812

[cloudsurfer007]

The information presented here is wrong in terms of archeology.

First: up until the year 1000 or so, The priest faced the people in common worship. There was no Blessed Sacrament. Nor were there confessionals etc. About 1200 or so the orientation of Churches was changed causing to priests pray towards walls of statues, with relics and ultimately a tabernacle being the focus of worship. The Latin Mass is a Renaissance Invention. Traditional worship was in the language of the people & informal.

[1rams123]

@cloudsurfer007

My friend- you are wrong, plain and simple. These is assertions are based on the same shoddy scholarship that proponents of the liturgical reform based their arguments on. If you read REAL, reliable, and informed liturgists like J.A. Jungmann - praised by Pope Benedict 16 as a "true liturgics among an army of psuedo-liturgts" - you will see where you are very mistaken. Also read the Pope B16's liturgical works and you will see the same thing.

[lionel3fernandez]

@cloudsurfer007

Priest facing people: have never read so in any of my early church history books....

Blessed Sacrament: Eucharistic miracle at Lanciano AD 700...and many more before that...

From where do yu get these 'ideas' and 'dates' ???

[cloudsurfer007]

@lionel3fernandez

Read the book "Going to Church in the First Century", then check things out further with "Early Christian Architecture". Read the Didache. The ":good old days" B16 wants to return to are Council of Trent Catholicism. That was "Show & Awe" Liturgy which had nothing to do with the Biblical message of Christ but everything to do with projecting Papal Power. The lace, & silk, complex liturgy, incense, gold, Latin, and other theatrical props are contrary to loving God & Neighbor.

[lionel3fernandez]

@cloudsurfer007

Well early Christian architecture has always been in the West and Eastern churches, looking and praying towards the direction East. I have read Didache and it clearly shows that early church revered "consecreated hosts" as Jesus; and they always faced the east while praying... Show to me the line from any of the ancient sources otherwise

[lionel3fernandez]

@cloudsurfer007

in fact many sources which i read and theologians which i spoke with confirmed that early christians faced east in catacombs and worshipped awaiting the second coming “As the lightning cometh out of the East and shineth even unto the West, so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be” (Matt 24:27).

[lionel3fernandez]

@cloudsurfer007

Have you read revelation.... The incense, gold, altar.... Not just latin... Latin Greek(Kyrie..) and Hebrew/Aramaic (Amen...) (Luke 23:38, John 19:20), are used for worship ever wondered why ? These are the only lanuages select by eternal god to be His salutation in his divine sacrifice on cross....read scholars and pray to the spirit so that he may open your eyes...Read Scott Hahn....he has more bible quoted

[cunjoz]

@cloudsurfer007

wow...al those things mixed up together...please read some Augustine, Iraeneus, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin the Martyr, , U.M. Lang, Gamber, Michael Davies.

Also note that not single liturgy of the Church has the celebration towards the people...not the coptic, nor melkite, nor syrian, nor maronite, nor armenian, nor indian, nor byzantine - all those Catholic rites are done "with the priest having his back on the people"..

[FrayRober]

Thanks a lot for this reflections. In spite of my bad English, I´m able to understand you pretty well. Pray for me, poor priest. Holy Virgin bless you.

[korzon]

We need to follow Christ's commandments they are Love youre Neighbor and do unto others as you would have done unto you.Forgive and you shall be forgiven.We need to be carefull of the traditions of men and these made up things they pull us away from Christ Spiritualy.We need not Idols and only give Glory to the Father and praise not dead men.Call no man Father but he in Heaven I think he knew preists would be called this and he fortold us about it .

[AtomicMonster454]

All catholics please pray for a TOTAL restoration of the Roman liturgy and priesthood.

[thatradperson]

Without the Church, there are Protestants denominations in the ten thousands. Each of them believing they have the true interpretation of Scripture, yet there is only one God and one Truth.

[korzon]

@thatradperson He poured out His Spirit out in the world and that is truth then it convicts you of youre sin that is the gift of salvation and by Grace it is given unto us.Youre body is youre Temple and all of us who follow His commands are his Church.GOD does not hang out in a building he resides in all of us just some dont listen they are too busy doing tradition.

[thatradperson]

Second Coming was not coming as soon as they had expected. The Catholic Church IS the Church founded by Christ on Peter who is the rock of His Church as the as written in the Gospel of St. Matthew. The popes are the successors of Peter, with the succession gone unbroken from Peter, Linus and Clement to Benedict XVI today. People need to the Church as the pillar of truth, Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture as guides.

[thatradperson]

How is saying Sacred Tradition is equal to Sacred Scripture bringing Christ down? Scripture is the word of God because those writing it are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Tradition is also the Word of God because it is the spoken word of those inspired by the the Holy Spirit passed down the generations. For centuries there was no Scripture besides the Old Testament. There was only the Apostolic Tradition passed by word of mouth and they later wrote down their witness to Christ after realizing his

[hoffabrando]

ant240

2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Tm:3:17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Heb:4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[thatradperson]

At the point of that epistle was written, the only thing considered scripture would be what we now call the Old Testament. It is was the Church that compiled the New Testament, and it is tradition that tells us they are inspired works.

[thatradperson]

2 Thess 2:15 - Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

1 Tim 3:15 - But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the PILLAR and GROUND OF THE TRUTH

You know, though the Bible is infallible it never claims in itself that it is the totality of the Word of God.

[hoffabrando]

The Catholic Church is in trouble; she pedals lies of for truths, and her biggest mistake,

Will cause her to crumble, the papacy claims infallibility, she is on course

For destruction and because of pervious infallible popes, vatican11, your pope of to day is just following a merry tune, cant you see, she is right on course. To except every abomination.

[1rams123]

What is Ironic is that u are clamming that the church's very indefectability will be the cause if her ruin.... to me, this like some sort of contradiction.

While u are right about the churchmen are delved into widespread apostasy (i believe possibly foretold by scripture) U are making claims without any backup or even a completely understanding what u are talking about- especially in the case of infallibility. Any more comments not pertaining to the context of this video will be removed.

[martlut]

@hoffabrando seems like the only abomination is your lying

[hoffabrando]

1rams123

I CAN SEE YOURE A CATHOLIC

CLOSED MIND, I AM BEING KIND.

I AM TALKING, ABOUT A SYSTEM.

SO YOU WANT TO KILL THE MESSINGER, WELL THATS OK,

BUT CAN YOU AT LEAST TELL ME HOW THE POPE GOT THAT PAGAN TITLE

PONIFEX PAXIMUS. OR IS THE QUESTION TO HARD, AND WHO GANGED THE BRIDE OF CHRIST, INTO A RELIGIO-POLITCAL SYSTEM THAT SOLD SALVATION FOR A PRICE.

[1rams123]

Open minds have a purpose, acquiring truth - once it is there, a mind too open is detrimental. I'm not killing anyone- just making u aware of ur own ignorance. The claims u r making r equivalent to using a racial slur (aka calling someone a N*GGER). Ur comments r misunderstood half truths at best & complete lies at worst. They have been peddled as Anti-Catholic propaganda for centuries, & have been refuted for centuries - only sheer ignorance (just the same case with racism) keeps them afloat.

[1rams123]

Now for ur concerns, if they are sincere (obviously not since u are spamming them all over youtube),

-a simple google search with the words "Pontifex Maximus papal title" will reveal the solution to your question .

-SOLD SALVATION FOR A PRICE : this will NOT be dignified with a response.

-RELIGIO-POLITICAL SYSTEM: now this is an interesting objection. A good one :-) SO good- that I will reply with a video. I like it cause many catholics will benefit from my response. Please wait for vid.

[martlut]

@hoffabrando that would be Pontifex Maximus at least get the term right ,and it is not the title of The Pope and never has been. The word means Bridge builedr you dope..any moron can look it up and find that one out but aparently you cant ...so please show us catholics where it appears as an offical title of the Pope in catholic teaching... Ill save you the trouble no place..

[baldwalrus7]

@martlut

It's true that this isn't an "official" title of the Pope like "Vicar of Christ", but it has for a long time been used by the Pope. If you go to Rome and check out the architecture you'll find "Pont. Max" written all over the place, e.g. on the Colosseum. I don't see why taking a pagan title to show that the Pope is the our true High Priest on earth would be problematic...

[martlut]

@baldwalrus7 yes the term pont max is a roman term and should be on their coliseum . however its not a catholic title for the Pope sorry you sda devils have struck out again. By the way the Pope never took the title It was conveyed upon Him by the emperor ,after the roman government threw out all the Pagans and accepted the christian faith as their state as their religion and the poe was now in charge of their faith . Just a simple explanation that I assume will go right over your SDA devil head

[martlut]

@baldwalrus7 sorry you cant separate Pagan secular Rome and its government from the roman Catholic rite of the catholic faith. you do Know the term Roman was only added to the church By Henry the *th King of England don't you then It was just called the catholic church RoFL at your pont Max people can be so stupid when they kep their heads buried in the sand and believe their phony supposed lying pastors and not read history for themselves

[baldwalrus7]

@martlut

Frankly I have no idea what you just said. It wasn't coherent English.

[martlut]

@baldwalrus7 Let me explain it in language a fundie can understand . I Just named you the head asshole of assholes . Does that make it so. Since the title you call and have adopted for yourself really is the floor flopping fundie king. So are you the asshole of assholes because that's the title someone else gave you.

[baldwalrus7]

@martlut

I'm actually a Catholic, so I have no idea why you've decided I'm a "fundie", unless you're using that term in the secular sense of "someone who actually believes that his religion is true". You clearly have a serious problem with foul language, and I suggest you go to confession.

[hoffabrando]

Whats the BIG DEAL? About Vatican 11

THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR CENTURIES

the church farthers interpreted YOUR BIBLE.

you end up with THE catechism of the church

that is totally alien to the bible,

how many catholic read there bibles,

not many, because if they did they would not be catholic for long,

You are starting to wake up, lots of people woke up 500 years ago,

AND LETS HOPE YOUR PATH IS DIFFERENT AND THERE IS NO

INQUISITION FOR YOU.

[1rams123]

My friend, with all do respect- Go get educated about these things. I have no doubt u r simply parroting (repeating) something someone else has told u. Read the writings of the early church fathers and u will see u have been misled. The early church fathers r often direct disciples of the apostles themselves. If u read their writings, u will see that they were Catholic. So many people r speaking so many false things about the Catholic Church. May God illuminate ur mind & heart.

Pax et Bonum.

[ant240]

hey hoffa the CATHOLIC CHURCH gave us the bible,not the other way around. i read my bible often and the more i read it the more i thank GOD that i am Catholic

[hoffabrando]

ant240

thats not so, if true

then show me in the bible,

Holy water. Pope, nuns, infant baptism, purgatory, penance, confession to priests, pray to dead saints, pray to Mary, , mother of god, sign of the cross,earthly priests,religion and politics ,mixture.christmas,easter, (hot new teachings for you to believe) Mary co redemer, , mediaxtrics of all grace QUEEN OF HEAVEN.

No no no no only one who REIGNS, king of kings and lord of lords. Next mary will be the savour. your brain dead also.

[ant240]

before i answer you i would like YOU to tell me where the bible came from. and please lets stop with the name calling.

[christianvs1]

1rams123: Bravo mate!! I thougherly agree,from my own academic point of view. However brother, you need to streamline your talk in this video (too many hesitations mate, viz. 'am', 'err', etc...).  I have been arguing with many Youtube chaps regarding the nomenclature of which you speak. Do continue your efforts; but be more systematic. However, well done; continue the good work mate!!

[1rams123]

This was the first video on my channel. You will notice most of the remainder of my videos are more 'streamlined'. Thanks for your feedback, I'm glad you enjoyed.

[helenw100]

75% of the mass changed or disgarded- table not altar, confessionals ripped out statuary taken out, priest facing people and turning his back to Jesus in the tabernacle. Jesuss words changed at the consecration. A meal not a sacrifice. They need to go back to teachings pre V2.

[Gara3987]

There are many problems with the Novus Ordo Missæ. It is unfortunate that many people believe the Mass to have been Translated from Latin, which unfortunately is not the case. The Novus Ordo was not imposed, it was offered as an alternative, though it took over. Doing a Translation and keeping to the Traditions would should have been the priority. Many don't understand Tradition (Divine and Ecclesiastical).

[helenw100]

The 'new order' mass was written by 7 protestant ministers and changed Our Lords words at consecration. Our Lady's message at fatima warned of a wholesale apostacy that would begin at the top. In 1958 a freemason was elected pope. The Church has been led the wrong way since then.

[LiturgicalChants]

I will add that I otherwise forever admire your video. You promote a more harmonious dichotomy between eastern and western church liturgies to the benefit of mankind's salvation. This video is charitable and educational for all christians to view.

[LiturgicalChants]

Let us think for example of Pierre Teilhard De Chardin's new age humanism in the passage of the Paul VI Mass:

"Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink. - Novus Ordo

as opposed to: "We offer Thee the Chalice of salvation, O Lord, beseeching Thy mercy that it my be as a sweet fragrance before Thy divine majesty for the salvation of us and the whole world." - 1962

[LiturgicalChants]

There is a contradiction between a new mass having "equal dignity" while simultaneously being "deficient theologically" I clearly believe the "Mass of Paul VI" (current ordinary form) is inferior and will live in infamy until the end of the world as a 20th century blemish upon Mother Church, particularly the Latin church. I would admit to it being valid...but absolutely inferior and disgraceful by a sin of omission..

[dacatholicbandorgan]

You are so spiritually wrong. You should repent for desercraton of sacred scripture.

[1rams123]

Thank you for your concern but, burning heretical bibles is not an act of desecration- Its actually and act of spiritual mercy. Even the Catholic Church did this a lot in order to keep them from falling into the hands of the faithful and destroying their faith. The New American Bible's commentary is sprinkled with the Modernist Heresy. That's why it was burned. As for me being 'spiritually wrong' I'm not sure what you mean, if you care to explain, I would not mind clarifying things for you .

[lithopoonwit]

Don't forget the Novus ordo ordinations (priests and bishops) are INVALID and therefore,even when the tridentine masses are restored everywhere,which is the wish of Pope benedict XVI, still the Novus ordo "bishops" are not fit to ordain priests, and the Novus ordo "priests" are not fit to read tridentine Mass. They should be re-ordained by FssPX Bishops. That's the only solution, for this very urgent and dangerous problem. Saving the priesthood and the Mass must be goal nr. 1 for all catholics.

[1rams123]

While I admit that the new rites can often be harmful... I would not say they are invalid.The FSSPX does not hold the position u have with regard to the validity of the masses and the episcopate and the priesthood. I would suggest u look into it. There is no reason to objectively state that ALL ordination and masses are invalid- each scenario need to be investigated... but to say that the Church as a whole promulgated invalid sacraments and rites is to deny the indefectability of the Church.

[lithopoonwit]

No, you are right. fsspx does not hold that every NO mass is invalid, but they state they are doubtful when done according to the original Missal and they are definitely invalid when done in the way many parish priest do it these days,with all the abuses. Even the words of consecration in the original missal of Paul VI are changed, and as a catholic you simply cannot participate in a doubful rite. As for the ordinations, same story. In my diocese the ordinations are definitely invalid.

[lithopoonwit]

Why are they invalid? because not even the minimum required for validity,the prayer of ordination,is translated correctly as to indicate that the person is to be taken up into another order,that is the second rank priestly order (secundi meriti munus). And even if it were there are enough arguments to suggest not even that suffice for a real ordination. None of the priestly powers are explicitly conferred. The celebration of mass for the living and the dead (not a "service"),to forgive sin,etc.

[1rams123]

I disagree with you.. and btw so does the FSSPX, and so does Pope Pius XII in his encyclical SACRAMENTUM ORDINIS. In paragraph 4, Pius XII stated that a valid confection of the sacrament of Holy Orders consists in the:

"words which determine the application of this matter [the laying of hands], which univocally signify the sacramental effects - namely the power of Order and the grace of the Holy Spirit - and which are accepted and used by the Church in that sense."

That is all that is needed.

[lithopoonwit]

"Sacramentum ordinis" was written in response to questions regarding Greek-Orthodox ordinations. But even if you believe that is sufficient for the holy orders, still this short prayer is mistranslated and crippled in the version they use in many diocese today. It is formulated in such a way as to not "offend" any protestant. Pius XII in 1947 certainly didn't mean to do that. I've showed one of these modern rite booklets to a fsspx priest myself and he stated it is definitely invalid.

[1rams123]

Priests of FSSPX will have differing opinions on this- which proves that priests of the FSSPX are not infallible, the Church however, IS, & so r its rites.

All ordinations, Greek, Roman or otherwise, have the same reqs I quoted above for u:

FORM: Words("used by the Church in that sense") signifying the grace of the holy spirit, and the rank being conferred.

MATTER: Laying of hands of a validly ordained bishop.

The context of the 'crippled' prayer makes up for what it lacks, so it IS valid.

[lithopoonwit]

You are very right, "the Church however is", then the question rises were the Bishops, who had embraced Arianism still the church? they conferred invalid baptisms as the formula was crippled to expres the Arian heresy. And remember it was the majority of the bishops who turned to Arianism, Athanasius was even excommunicated by the (Arian) Pope.

[lithopoonwit]

Novus ordo missae and Novus ordo ordinations, were clearly meant to undermine and eventually destroy the Holy Mass, by ordaining invalid priests and leting them read invalid masses, and thereby mislead the Catholis into believing they are receiving valid sacraments.Novus ordo is garbage and we don't need it. In fact we should be better off without it. Woe to those (them) that signed and promulgated this garbage for the Church. It is the very reason why the Church is in such a crisis these days.

[1rams123]

Sensationalists like to run around and tell people that the new sacramental rites are "INVALID". I've studied the arguments they put forth and frankly, it seems like they say such things for shock value rather than by a theological inference. Consider this, the truth is actually much worse than their sensational version untrue version- the scary part is, the sacraments ARE valid- imagine all the sacrilege that takes place every day- by priests and lay alike- truth is stranger than fiction....

[humboldt777]

Very good. But the most egregious aspects of the Paul VI's reformation of the liturgy is that it not only deviated from the tradition of the church, but that it deviated from what the Constitution on Liturgy of the II Vatican Council prescribed. The Latin language was confirmed by the II Vatican Council but the reformation ignored. So yes it is a scandal. I agree with your assesment of the reformation as being defective.

[helwua]

Thanks for such nice explanation. You put so much into it. I completely understand what you're saying I find the tempo of your speech adequate to those who have more than average knowledge about the organic growth of the Catholic Mass. May i add that there's only one Religion that is the True Catholic Faith. And although there are many rites, the only one who was fabricated inorganically is the Novos Ordo I believe it is a different rite. I might be wrong, but it certainly feels like that

[humboldt777]

I believe that the Novus Ordo liturgy is another rite. It has very little in common wit the tridentine rite, both externally and internally.

[MFRita]

1rams123:

I recongnize you from San Secondo, isn't that a beautiful Church?

Great job on your first video!! However I think a little less detail can be more effective at times.

If you watch Mikes video, you never stop listening to what he has to say cuz he sticks to his point, but doesn't get bogged down by too much detail.

A little more practice & you'll be great.

[dacatholicbandorgan]

May the real spirit of Vatican II, something that did not happen in the majority of our churches come to new life.

[Autismmom]

May spirit of Vatican II die and may Mary our Mother crush the serpents head. Thank you for helping souls back to TRADITION.

[1rams123]

No I do not believe it was inspired by the holy spirit... For the same reason that the church cannot create doctrine, it cannot create a liturgy. It MUST develop, just like all of our doctrines.. none of them have been fabricated... neither have any of the legitimate liturgies of the Catholic church. You may want to take a look at some of my other videos. They explain more, and I've got more to come too.

[1rams123]

I commend you for your practice of adoration. Sadly however, surveys and stats have proven, that orthodox belief in the Real Presence is about 30% - and this is a high estimate. I believe the new mass takes part of the blame for this.... As I point out in this video, the liturgy is the main teacher of the faith... and the new mass resembles the protestant liturgies, liturgies that express unbelief in the true presence. Take a look for yourself, I've posted some examples on the side info bar.

[1rams123]

The shortcomings of the new mass have contributed significant to the loss of faith. Remember, lex orandi lex credendi. How we pray dictates what we believe...if we pray like people who don't believe in the true presence... .then its only a matter of time before we will believe what they do.

[1rams123]

My friend, your missing the point of this video. Its not your fault,u probably missed it for the same reason that papsttreu did also, I'm unclear. Look at his response to this vid, and my subsequent response to him. The short version of this discussion is this

the mass may have began in hebrew or aramaic, but the fact is, it developed slowly over time by the inspiration of the holy spirit to be a more perfect expression of its reality... we should not undo or treat lightly this development.

[baguazhang77]

I appreciate your opinion on this, and especially your admission of the continued indefectibility of the Church on teachings of faith and morals - none of which were changed in Vatican II.

Nothing against the Tridentine mass. But, you state the mass "developed" over time. How then do you know this development should have stopped forever with the Tridenine mass?

While the Tridentine mass was around for centuries, remember a day is like 10,000 years to God and 10,000 years like a day.

[1rams123]

Ur objection is very valid. The developments should not 'cease' with the Tridentine mass. The mass needs to continue to develop, however this development needs to be an organic development. This means it happens naturally, not by means of an expert committee making recommendations. Development need to be gradual. Changes happen naturally, & then they are approved, not vice versa. This isn't what happened w/ the new mass, it was fabricated. See my other vids for more info. Feel free to ask q's.

[baguazhang77]

You say these things have to evolve, but evolve from where, individuals or entities making these decisions on their own? Isn't it the collective Church that we must look to for authority in these matters? If we do not defer to that authority, than we might as well all (God forbid) be protestants.

Nothing against the TM. But, did Vatican II, a valid Church council, have any less authority to develop the "new" mass than the Council of Trent did to in the same fashion develop the Tridentine mass?

[1rams123]

The reply to these good questions is going to well exceed the 500 char limit. I will pm you.

[Raffzeee]

Unfortunately, there have been many liturgical disgraces in the USA. And the Spirit of the Universal Church is missing from them (ir. aesthetically they are Protestant). However in the parish I go to in UK, it is very Catholic indeed.

[QueenOfShemakh]

Jesus, Mary and Joseph! why all this idle talking??

[1rams123]

Let me assure you, this is not idle talk. The Catholic Church has been illegally deprived of its true sacred liturgy for the past 40 years. I believe that this is one of the main reasons for the crisis of the faith today. Thanks be to God for our Pope B16, these tumultuous times are finally being dealt with soon, and the Church will be restored to its historic glory.

[capone70]

VERY good video. My compliments. Regarding the true churches, always remember the number 5 (as in "pentecost"); Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem in that order.

[1rams123]

I may be mistaken but I believe the order you are referring to here is the order of the preeminence of the 5 patriarchates of the ancient world. The chronological order of their emergence and the emergence of their liturgical rite is Jerusalem,

(Antioch, Rome, Alexandria) - about the same time

& then Constantinople. The Jerusalem rite, as an independent rite is now gone. It only exists in parts within the other 4 rites, and we are not really sure which parts too.

[1rams123]

But with respect to the ancient sees, most people don't know this but, it is also beneficial to note that all these sees, are Petrine in nature. Just as all true sees are today, either established or approved by Rome. Jerusalem became a see in Acts, by the approval of Peter to the council of Jerusalem. Rome was founded by Peter and Paul. Antioch was founded Peter. Alexandria was founded by Mark, who was sent by Peter. And Constantinople, was approved as a see by Pope St. Leo @ ~ AD 381.

[1rams123]

Please look at the info I provided in the side bar:

One may say," Of coarse they are similar liturgies, they broke off of the Catholic Church, their worship will look similar to Catholic worship." But the fact of the matter is, wait until you see what the Roman Liturgy was like before it was morphed and mutilated into looking like the protestant liturgies in the 60's etc" - The fact is, the mass you know now is closer to the mass Kramner created than to the catholic mass.

[nate12387]

the High Anglicans got the Mass from the Catholic Church. You can't the New Mass is protestant because of that. It would actually be a more accurate to say that the High Anglican mass is Catholic, not the Catholic Mass is protestant.

[RichStJRaw]

Good vlog, can you answer a question I read in a thread on 'pap's' vlog: how would you feel if the old mass was in the vernacular as well as Latin? Is this something you think the Church could ever consider?

[1rams123]

Well my friend, this question alone requires another vlog. I will post soon. Stay posted.

[paxcoder]

If you're against, I hope you post more than "translation messes up the message" argument, because it's not convincing.

...Unless of course you want a Church law to be instituted that would order people to know impeccable Latin.

Oh and two columns hardly make for an argument why the Latin column should be read.

This is, thus, just a critique on language, not the rite.

However, Vatican II is inspired in whole - including the new rite. So, our personal opinions do not matter.

[paxcoder]

PS. Comment about the Episcopalian service was a low blow.

[1rams123]

Pax Tecum Paxcoder!

Let me assure you, I grew up on the New Rite of mass. I have no intention of putting down something that even members of my family still hold dear. I just want to speak the truth as my earnest seeking has brought me to understand. I've saved the program from that funeral, and was considering making a vid about this experience...

[1rams123]

It brought me much pain to attend my first episcopal mass not just because it was a funeral of a dear friend (I had never had a reason to attend an Episcopal mass until then), but because it brought me the realization that the mass I had loved so much was not Catholic in its expression, but rather, protestant. I felt cheated, and lied to.

[paxcoder]

Episcopalians come from Anglicans, Anglicans come from Catholics. And the only thing I see that resembles is pastor facing the people (rather than *east*), the liturgy itself do not resemble, although I have seen only a short part. What you felt is, again irrelevant to finding the True Church, to be quite honest with you.

[1rams123]

Facing *east* is an Apostolic Tradition that is found in ALL 26 some-odd liturgies of the catholic faith. The first liturgy in history to officially remove this is the one created by Thomas Cramner. Some similarities:

The sense of sacrifice of propitiation is toned down, in favor of sacrifice of praise and & thanks.

The vernacular took over.

The EXPLICIT references to true presence are toned down & Many signs of reverence to the True Presence are removed or optional.

This topic needs a video.

[1rams123]

Remember that in general all liturgies are somewhat similar in the sense that the follow the same basic skeleton. I'm not referring to that, what I'm referring to are how changes made to the liturgy tend to be in line with what the protestants wanted, and the council of Trent condemned. Vatican II did not want these changes, they were swindled in. Our pope is doing something about that Deo Gratias! look at this recent article I PM-ed you.

[paxcoder]

I don't understand, are you trying to say Vatican II did not establish Novus ordo as we celebrate it?

[1rams123]

Let me suggest to you that masses celebrated according to the specifications required by the Council Fathers are even more rare than masses celebrated in the Old rite. This also a topic for another video... but in the mean time, I've made some comments about this in my information side bar.

[capone70]

Vatican II absolutely did NOT establish Novus Ordo. This came AFTERWARDS under Paul VI. Sacrosanctum Concilium specifically states that Latin is to remain the language of the liturgy and Gregorian chant the liturgical music. 99.9% of cases in the Novus Ordo, these commands are discarded in the name of the "spirit of Vatican II" which is subject to the whim and/or interpretation of any errant priest or bishop.

[paxcoder]

Ok, so I was wrong? It's not the Council guided by the Holy Spirit, it's the infallible pope guided by the Holy Spirit? Ok.

[1rams123]

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but let me clarify. Ecumenical councils are infallible when approved by a pope, this is true. However, what capone and I are pointing out is that the implementation of the council's wishes were carried out in a way that was contrary to what the fathers of the council envisioned. We have yet to see the true fruits of Vatican II.

[paxcoder]

Is pope celebrating a different mass/rite than we do?

[1rams123]

If u r asking a sincere Q, the Pope is publicly celebrating the same rite that was imposed on everyone... that doesn't necessarily mean he does this in private. If u r asking a rhetorical Q, you are really oversimplifying the situation. The pope is preparing the faithful for a big transition.. it has taken and will take years to undo the damage that has been done already. The Old Mass is intolerable to most people because they have a different understanding of the mass now, it will take time.

[paxcoder]

Ok, let's be straight to the core. Who did the damage, and with what? And what is pope rectifying, and why was it not done sooner? More importantly are you trying to say the Ordinary rite is invalid??

[1rams123]

In this video, as well as the response i made to papsttreu, I explicitly state that the new mass IS sacramentally valid. Please do look at the videos: "Clarifications to The True Catholic Mass and The New Catholic Mass" 1& 2. You will find them helpful. As far who is to blame?This is hard to pinpoint because we are still living these times.The Council's Concilium and Annibale Bugnini are culprits. As for the rest of your Q's I will have to make another video. Forgive me, there is just no room.

[capone70]

You are wrong again. The pope is ONLY infallible in so far as he is speaking Ex Cathedra. He doesn't wake up in the morning and say, "where's my coffee?" which becomes an infallible statement. If you are Catholic, you really do need to understand your faith a bit more.

[paxcoder]

Yeah. Very funny. Anyway.

The Ordinary Rite was *promulgated* in 1969 by pope Paul VI (after the Second Vatican Council), the same way the Extraordinary rite was *promulgated* in 1570 by pope Pope Pius V (after Council of Trent).

As it would seem, it doesn't need to be ex-cathedra (infallible) to be declared to and obeyed by the Roman Catholics.

[1rams123]

Paxcoder is right. We owe obedience to the Holy Father in all his pronouncements, fallible or infallible. However, if his pronouncements contradict Faith, Hope, or Charity, we have an OBLIGATION to disobey." We must obey God rather than men" Acts 5:29. The prob is, the some aspects of the Pauline missal contradict certain dogmatic statements found in the Council of Trent. I briefly mention this in "Traditional mass the Vernacular, Yes, No, maybe so" although I only speak about Latin in that vid

[capone70]

FYI, that last reply was to paxcoder, not to your subsequent comment here.

[capone70]

No, it doesn't. But I needed to correct your infallible statement, which was wrong. And I guess I'm not seeing anyone here yet saying the NO isn't valid (I'm not) or that we shouldn't obey the pope. But there have been some VERY BAD popes in our church who made VERY BAD MISTAKES. Our current pope IMHO is a very wise and great man; twice that of his predecesor. And I pray he will right the wrong of those who came before him.

[paxcoder]

In that case, thanks for corrections, I have learned something actually (never have dived into the matter, really to be honest).

Only tell me what doesn't what?

[capone70]

sorry, I don't understand the question.

[paxcoder]

You said "No, it doesn't.".

Doesn't what?

[capone70]

I was agreeing with your statement "it doesn't need to be infallible...Roman Catholics." This is true. But I wanted to ensure you understood that while a council is infallible, the Pope is ONLY infallible when speaking ex-Cathedra.  And none of the documents produced by Pope Paul VI are considered infallible. There are degrees by which statements from the Pope are to be considered. Opinions are different than ex-Cathedra statements. Just need to clarify here.

[paxcoder]

I know that. But as I said, I didn't know much about declaring rites.

[lithopoonwit]

I doubt it was a mistake. Messing up the liturgy like that was fully intentional and evil on the part of those who designed it (Bugnini = freemason) and who signed it (Paul VI or his alleged stand-in, his look-a-like). It was a freemasonic plan to destroy or disrupt the Holy Sacrifice, and this is the destruction in the temple of which the Prophet Daniël has spoken. A sign of the End of times.

[1rams123]

Remember that as Catholics, how we worship dictates what we believe... "Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi". The old liturgy has been refined for thousands of years, under the guidance of the Holy Ghost to be the most perfect expression of catholic faith.

[paxcoder]

You said there were more than one liturgic expressions of the same mass. New order is one too. It is just as valid.

[1rams123]

There is no point in history in which someone can point to & say that the Tridentine mass came into existence aside from the last supper. This is because the nature of a liturgical rite is to "grow in the devotion of centuries". It grieves me to tell you that the new mass did not grow, it was fabricated in the 1960's as a rupture with tradition, not in continuity with it.

[paxcoder]

It was fabricated on a council we believe to be led by the Holy Spirit. This is our faith.

[1rams123]

The Church would be abusing its right by "fabricating" a liturgy. .Liturgies must be Apostolic. Liturgies must organically develop. This is true if All liturgies (except 1969).Think of the Church as a curator of a museum. The art is authored by God, it is our Faith & Tradition .The church must preserve the faith and pass it down. The church cannot invent new doctrines, neither can it fabricate a liturgy. The curator of a museum can only protect and rejuvenate a painting, not paint it anew.

[paxcoder]

Nevermind deleting my comment, it happens even to me sometimes, and I have been on Youtube for a while now. I won't make another reply, papstteru have answered.