If Hell is anything less than eternal in your mind then take heed, lest you be as Israel and become ignorant of God's righteousness. For by stripping God's righteousness of it's eternality you are in danger of making the cross of Christ useless, inasmuch as anyone who murders Him on the earth will eventually be accepted anyway. And God is clear, that no sinner (without grace) will ever inherit the Kingdom of God. Don't be fooled by that damning Universalist lie; there's no hope outside of Christ
@KingdomUploader Revelation 5:13 "Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
@jayjaygee123 Correct! there is no hope outside of Christ Jesus; all nations of peoples will be given the truth at some point and at that point "every knee shall bow and tongue confess Him as Lord. remember brother that "no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws him, not me or you or any threat of hell but the Spirit of the living God will draw them in due season. "no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit. All will come to know Him; please read Revelation 5:13
I have come to view Jesus' atonement as being truly universal. Hell may serve a remedial function but not, I strongly suspect, an eternally punitive one. In this view, Hell exists and God's perfect mercy and love are validated.
@Pacisdiligo Strongly suspecting something doesn't mean it's true. But hey, if you want to continue running your race as fast as you can to eternal damnation based on strong suspicion, who am I to judge?
@jayjaygee123: Please point to the passage in the Bible that declares (or even infers) that one must believe that Hell is eternal in order to be saved.
@Pacisdiligo Romans 10:2-3 "For I bear them witness (Israel) that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God."
They ignored God's righteous judgment; He is a God of wrath who judges rightly. They thought they could attain that righteousness on their own. Or in American context, they thought they weren't that bad and God would have mercy.
@jayjaygee123: You didn't answer my question. That passage has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Again, please point to ANY passage in the Bible that even suggests that one has to believe that Hell is eternal in order to be saved. THAT was the main point of my initial post.
@Pacisdiligo Please learn to argue better and actually accept Christian doctrines before you call yourself a Christian.
I say again, Romans 10 verses 1-4, where Paul says he desires that Israel be SAVED but says they are ignorant of God's righteous standard.
And might I ask if not saved from hell then what? If not saved from death then what? A meaningless life? Give me a life with no meaning; if I have hoped in Christ in this life only I am of all people most pitied.
@jayjaygee123 "Argue better"? When you can't even defend the position you've taken with a single Scripture reference? My initial post affirmed the atonement of Christ. It even affirmed the existence of Hell. My departure from orthodoxy is specifically at the point of whether or not Hell is indeed eternal or possibly temporal. The Adventist position of annihilationism is another interesting possibility. Salvation doesn't hinge on this topic.
@Pacisdiligo In laymen's terms I am telling you that you also are ignorant of God's righteousness. You don't understand how holy God is. You are in risk of the very hellfire you are denying.
1 scripture reference? Try looking at Christ's warnings about hell in Mark 9:42-50 where "The worm does not die and the fire is not quenced." That's eternal. Or how about Abraham's message to the rich man in Luke 16? "...Between us is a great fulf fixed...(those who want to pass from there to here) cannot."
@jayjaygee123: Ignorant? An interesting choice of words there. There are passages that suggest that Hell is eternal and some that suggest that it is not. However, that wasn't even the point of my response to your initial reply. Your "zeal" clouds your ability to argue rationally.
@Pacisdiligo If a police officer is assassinated it is a heinous crime and worthy of sever punishment. But if a president is assassinated the entire nation mourns and crime is far more heinous. How much more, then, is rejecting an infinitely Holy King and trampling His Son underfoot? Sin against an infinitely righteous God, Who's every way is good and in whom is no darkness, is infinitely detestable, and in murdering Christ (as all do who reject Him) we are worthy of an infinite punishment.
@jayjaygee123 this analogy is futile; murder is the sin; it does not matter who dies. oh, and "worthy of infinite punishment'? read jer.17: 10 “I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve."
@Pacisdiligo I use the term Paul used because it is appropriate. You don't understand how righteous God is. You forget that in our first sin God had every right to wipe man off the face of the earth and cast Adam into hell, but in His mercy He provided atonement; clothing Him with the skin of an animal. You make hell temporary, which is a damning lie for anyone who would listen. Why should I repent if eventually I'll be forgiven anyway? Don't fool with immovable doctrines; too much is at stake.
@jayjaygee123: If God were so deeply concerned with people believing in Hell in general and an eternal Hell in particular, then why is the concept nowhere to be found in the Old Testament? Why would He leave it off the syllabus for millenia until the time of Christ? And even in the New Testament the subject of Hell is clouded with vagueries and subject to differing interpretations.
@jayjaygee123 Now you're asking a decent question. But is it not the God of the Old Testament who's viewed as a God of wrath? See in Genesis the flood, which is God's punishment on the whole world for sin. Just as Christ isn't "revealed" but pointed to, so is Hell. Are you going to ask if Old Testament saints had to believe in Christ too? God has always been deadly serious with sin; by one man's sin the whole universe was curse. Hell is no human doctrine. Christ preached more on it then anyone.
@jayjaygee123 "Christ preached more on it then anyone"; i get the typo and understand this statement; it is one that really sticks in my spiritual craw. it is rhetoric that hell fire preachers use to substantiate their claims. Jesus taught more on money/wealt than hell; he talked about loving God and each other more than hell; He talked about the Kingdom of God more than hell. do the math brother and please stop repeating what Icon preachers say.
@KingdomUploader If it was not a typo and you did say that "Christ preached more on hell than anyone", i would reason that IF IT WAS SO POWERFULLY AND SO POTENTLY NECESSARY, WHY DOES THE BOOK OF ACTS AND THE OTHER APOSTOLIC BOOKS LEAVE IT OUT?
@jayjaygee123 Everyone i know who believes that God forsakes MOST people to the st. Augustine view of on-going never ending torture in what are metaphorical flames....or "flame" sing. in the laz. and rich man parable, and that IS a parable, are not studying the original language usage and they certainly do not understand the old testament as it relates to the new. wasting our breath we are with people who give more value and credence to God's just-ness than to His incredible reconciling love
@Pacisdiligo Everyone i know who believes that God forsakes MOST people to the st. Augustine view of on-going never ending torture in what are metaphorical flames....or "flame" sing. in the laz. and rich man parable, and that IS a parable, are not studying the original language usage and they certainly do not understand the old testament as it relates to the new. wasting our breath we are with people who give more value and credence to God's just-ness than to His incredible reconciling love
@KingdomUploader I don't give more credence to God's justice; you just give it none. If hell is not eternal then our gospel is a useless thing because all men will be saved eventually anyways. Univerisalists preach a damning lie, because it tells sinners "You're ok in your sins, God will eventually forgive you anyway." But Christ says "Unless you repent you will also likewise perish." (Luke 13:3) Do you think he was concerned with this life only? Don't be ignorant of God's righteousness.
@KingdomUploader And arguing that as simply a parable doesn't change the truthfulness of Christ's words. Or can we not see that when God divides the wheat and the tares that He's talking about a actual event but using figurative language? There is no two ways around this; that parable is a clear picture of the eternal sufferings of hell and you can't just cut it out because you don't like it.
@jayjaygee123 Brother,in a parable,it is not the "props" used as description we are to note; we are to find the purpose and meaning that it offers, crudely, the punch line.the parable simply points to the high and lofty pharisees finding in the end that the gentiles they were excluding are now secure with the Father while they are cast down to gehenna, the place where, figuratively, anything that is not of value to the kingdom goes I've walked in your understanding for thirty years; no more.
@KingdomUploader Oh, it's not the props huh? So I guess the seed and sower the important things aren't the seeds or the sower or what they represent or the soil, but that some things grow and some things don't. Everything is the bible is important. Yes, some things are symbolic and some things aren't repeated much, but because Christ said "It is finished" only once doesn't change it's significance.
And stop trying to sound smart; there was no change in meaning in that rearrangement.
@KingdomUploader Christ did preach more on hell than anyone else in all of scripture. There is no argument there; it's a fact. Yes, He didn't preach on it more than anything else, but He was the most adamant fire and brimstone preacher recorded in the bible. God doesn't often say in the Old Testament "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength," but isn't that the most important commandment? Are you gonna say that's not important because it's not commonly explicit?
@jayjaygee123 I hear you...but still....there is no hell warnings in the soul saving in the apostles Acts; i would think since Jesus was all about hell that the apostles would have been hell fire preachers. it's not there. and according to tradition the great commission should read: "go into all the world and warn people that they are hell bound and then make ye converts!"
Todd, John Mac and the like should come to the scripture with a humble heart and ask the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. I suggest that you set your education aside and revisit the doctrine of scripture. I believe it is as plain as can be that the wages of sin is death. The Jews with their knowledge of scripture missed the Messiah. The Catholic church missed Grace. Could you be missing something? We know in part. No one has arrived!
Todd, John Mac and the like should come to the scripture with a humble heart and ask the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. I suggest that you set your education aside and revisit the doctrine of scripture. I believe it is as plain as can be that the wages of sin is death. The Jews with their knowledge of scripture missed the Messiah. the Catholic church missed Grace. could you be missing something. we know in part. No one has arrived!
May I recommend a book for all who are interested in looking deeper into this topic? "Whatever Became of Melanie" by Allan R. Chevrier. I find the interviewer very condescending and arrogant toward his guest. These men are two Christians who love the Lord and have a difference of interpretation. The interviewer is mocking in his tone. Too bad.
I learned a long time ago to beware of so-called ministers of God who stall, focus on trivial matters, and ultimately give ambiguous responses when asked the most important questions about their beliefs (on things like salvation, Jesus being the only way, the doctrine of hell, etc). These are straightforward questions that deserve straightforward (Biblical) answers. They're only difficult to answer clearly, when you're trying to hide something.
For those who believe in temporary punishment, I say this:
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The devil, the beast (a man) and the false prophet (another man) will burn forever. Right?
Add to that what Jesus said to the 'goats' Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
This man is way out there! He can not understand a place? How can he understand anything then? A place is a noun meaning a specific location, in case anyone is interested! Gee Whiz!
If Jesus paid the ultimate price and took upon Himself the wrath of God for those who believe on Him; and with the Ultimate penalty obviously being eternal conscious torment in hell, then why is Jesus not now and forever more burning in hell?
Jesus never used the word hell, he used the word Gehenna,,, which back then meant something completely different to the Jews then what Christians are taught nowadays by the "system".
The doctrine of hell is indeed false... spiritual language that has been taken literally when in fact it has spiritual implications for all those who tr to be right with God based on human effort.
@LoveJesusNotReligion - there are many greek words used in the word hell not just Gehenna, example Jesus used the greek word Hades in Revelation 1:18. If the teaching of hell is false then why is it it is all over at least in the N.T??? Could you explain what these verses meant Matt 5:30, Rev. 21:8, Luke 12:4-5???
@UliponNiCristo - True enough there are Hades, Sheol, Tartaurus and Gehenna to be exact, none of which according to the Jewish understanding (original meaning) have anything to due with the way hell is taught nowadays. I could explain the other verses you listed, but would you believe? Probably not. May I suggest LoveJesusNotReligion d o t o r g
This type of communication is not helpful to sinners who are listening - disrespect, talking over each other, talking in incomplete sound-bytes rather than fully explaining a point of view. Ridiculous and immature! We should seize every opportunity to declare Truth, not waste people's time.
@DevlinUK A big amen for your thoughts on shrill Friel or should i say 'Odd Todd":~) I was thinking perhaps Pagitt might be more persuasive in a different setting.
I don't usually respond to this type of thing, but I feel I need to say that there is a lot of talking around questions that are being ask. I know that when I don't want to be very specific with my children, I will talk around the subject with them so I don't have to speak the truth to them until they are old enough to understand it. That appears to be what is going on here. The only problem is that we are adults and we can see through it. If you are truly a Christian you can discern that.
Everyone who has ever lived, from Adolf Hitler to Martin Luther King, deserves to be TORTURED FOR ETERNITY just for existing. God created us with the intent and foreknowledge that at least 85% of us would spend eternity as human Duraflames. God is unending, patient, incomprehensable love, but the second a non-Christian dies, He suddenly turns into unending HATRED and VENGENCE.
@roguetrip99 How can I love a God like that? does his 'longsuffering' just snap at some point? How does our roasting away throughout all ages bring glory to God?
Seems i probably do agree with Doug in some issues. Seems when one beloieves in evolution tend todestroy a lot more people compared to what Christians do. Go look in the ideal of fundamentalism and what they opposed. For instance, Fosdick supported Eugenics and thought we should handle Hitler as not to condemn him.
Jude 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Is this the verse he is referring to? As a pastor who recites it every Sunday with his church, you'd think he would be able to at least partially quote it!
Two guys who both say they follow Jesus - both interrupting and being rude with each other. How does this dialog compare to the example of Jesus' dialog with anyone?
The wages of sin is death. Jesus came that none should perish. The main thrust of scripture, when looked at as a whole, is that jesus saves us from DEATH and gives eternal LIFE. There very well may be a litteral lake of fire, but those who are cast in will perish, their souls extinguished.
@gtrjunky My emphasis wasn't on "none", but on "perish". It doesn't say that God so loved the world that He sent His only son that none should suffer in agony for eternity... Because of sin, mankind has been barred from the tree of life, and is now subject to death. Jesus has won victory over that DEATH... the GRAVE. We who place our faith in Him will not PERISH.
@SouthIslandSurf Indeed, the word "perish", in the greek has multiple definitions. It seems that you are interpreting a koine greek word into a 21st century definition/concept. Try to keep the scripture in context.
Don't listen to Friel, he makes money from by pointing out "false prophets" that aren't truly false prophets, their just of a different denomination. I've never heard such ignorance spewed from a human mouth, as I have heard come out of Todds. His ways are not Christian, and he is setting a terrible example.
worms=grave, gnashing of teeth= angry people, fire= wrath of GOD.Jesus spoke in parables. Absolutley!!! GOD will restore all those that will exept HIS son when he returns to the earth to establish GODs kingdom.Jesus will judge and seperate the faithful from non faithful.Unfaithful= forever damnation where the worms never die= forever grave, seperated from GOD. Destroyed=finished=dead =hell=sheol=grave.Todd admitts @10:39 that he makes up his own conclusion. Hmmm becareful Todd. Be slow to speak
It's very sad that you're putting Doug on the spot with regards to these things when he's being kind enough to accept this interview. It's almost like his sole purpose of being on your show is to prove him wrong.
The conversation doesn't sound Christian at all. Even the interview between Richard Dawkins and Alistair McGrath sounds more mature and Christian than this.
@SwordofManticorE Wow, shows how much you really don't know. Actually his interest is to proclaim biblical truth and expose frauds like Pagitt and other universalists.
@SwordofManticorE Yep...rip them verses OUT OF CONTEXT to support your filthy false teachings. That's the only way the raw sewage you promote can survive.
@gtrjunky You are like your father the devil. You have been givin truth by scripture but will not believe. You are like the pharisees who acted selfrightouse and still would not believe that Christ is Christ after all the mirecles He did. The word is life, not destruction. A child of the devil does not believe the Word, he (you) decieves others from believing it. If you call yourself a christian, you need to go to a prayer group.
@Swordofjellyfish~It is YOU who LIES like the devil with your false doctrine saying "peace, peace when there is no peace" and gives false assurance to unbelievers. The righteousness I have comes from Christ and I do not advocate works righteousness so please drop the ad hominem attacks, it only shows your weakness.
@gtrjunky Hey gtrjunky! I see your still being a terrible Christian! Just wanted to stop by and say hello, and implore you to reconsider being such a mean person to these fellow youtubers.
@MarkToTheSky I figured out what your definition of "mean" is...Anyone who tells someone else they're wrong. If you need help, I know a good log removal service.
@gtrjunky No sir, because you have the god given ability of sincerity, and you show absolutely none, you show absolutely no respect to the people you talk to, & you show such a hardness of heart that engaging in a conversation with a fellow brother like yourself becomes unenjoyable and confrontational, much like Todd here. This is the work of Lucifer, pitting us against one another because of the slightest differences, and you fall for it every time. I will pray for you, & for all of us.
@MarkToTheSky It's the sincerety that's offensive to you. As I said, "being mean" is telling someone else they're wrong...but it's OK for you to do it. BTW, nice "christ-like" video on your channel. Did the "holy spirit" inspire it?
@gtrjunky So I suppose it is you who is without sin, because you threw that stone just now. This channel isn't just used for myself, my friends upload on it as well, & yes I have friends that aren't Christian because I'm not afraid of diversity, & my beliefs are my own, unlike you who has to strap everyone they meet down to force-feed them their beliefs because you supposedly want to save them from eternal torture. I invite people in the name of God's sovereignty and love, not scare tactics.
@MarkToTheSky No, you threw first. So if it's "wrong" to tell others they are wrong then why don't you acknowledge my "diversity"??? Oh I know...you don't like it therefore I'm "wrong".
@MarkToTheSky That is just one of the epic failures of yo post modern 21st century "thinkers". You love to cry "diversity, diversity" until someone isn't "diverse" the way you like it, then you label them as "mean" and "hurtful" and all other sorts of strawman terms. The fact is, it epitomizes modern day phariseeism.
@gtrjunky I see, so I'm the pharisee, because I told you you're wrong for telling other people their wrong. That logic is golden, but in reality, you are just the Christian who grew up learning all these man-made doctrines until you were convinced they are absolutely true, so you don't read the bible with your heart, you read it with your reason, you read it with a state of mind. Hell is an extremely pagan outlook, & I can explain that to you sufficiently, but you wouldn't care.
@gtrjunky You're being rude with this now, you're essentially calling me a fool, and what does our Messiah say about calling your brother a fool? In our past discussions, I used to believe all roads led to God, but I was mislead. The only way is through Yeshua, but that doesn't mean that if you don't have Yeshua, that you are condemned to an eternal hell, since every time the Bible mentions "forever, eternal" it's translated from a hebrew word that means "eon" which is a period of time.
@MarkToTheSky So Jesus was saying that the word "fool" cannot be uttered by a believer??? Hmmmm I wonder why Paul called the Galatians fools then??? Even though I never called you that.
@MarkToTheSky Your use of that passage CLEARLY denotes a poor handling of the text. If you abuse that passage, it's no wonder you ignore the other CLEAR passages about God's judgment which you have chosen to ignore in favor of the word of man (universalism).
@gtrjunky Think about all the innocent children in third world countries, who have never had the opportunity to know of the love of Christ, do you think it's "just" for them to burn forever, without even having the choice to accept of reject Yeshua? The doctrine of hell was established in the 3rd century by church leaders who adopted this widely accepted pagan idea of punishment, the imagery comes from Dante, & the divine comedy. Early orthodox Christians did not believe in eternal torture.
@gtrjunky I mean innocent in the sense that they have not been given the opportunity to know. Quit singling out sentences from my replies, and quit beating around the bush. If you want, we can just end this aimless conversation.
@MarkToTheSky Those "single sentences" happen to reflect your bad theology. The bottom line is as aformentioned. You have forsaken God's word in favor of man's and you worship a god of your own liking. One who speaks and acts like you would.
@gtrjunky That is your opinion brother. My theology comes straight from the Bible, it is my hearts interpretation, it's not some pastor's who I go see every Sunday to listen to what he or she may think a certain verse means, it's my completely unbiased interpretation. & you say I favor "mans word" when you are the one that abides to man-made doctrine. You favor a corruption, a deformation.
@MarkToTheSky Well then if biblical interpretation is merely a matter of one's own "heart" then you have no grounds for objection to ANYTHING ANYONE else says regarding biblical matters.
Yes you are favoring man's word and worshipping a god of your imagination...one who acts and thinks like you do; one who is NOT Holy nor just.
@gtrjunky Jewish rabbi's all had "yokes" that was their interpretation of the scriptures, when they met in synagogues, they listened to each other's yokes, and discussed it openly. They didn't cry "false prophet!" every time someone had a different interpretation, they didn't make an attempt to insult one another, they didn't have the nerve to ever say that they were worshiping two different gods.
@MarkToTheSky Wow dude...that's all I can say is "wow". That ranks high on the list of some of the most OFF THE WALL statements I seen someone write. I think you should send your resume to Rob Bell's church. They would surely put you on staff with home cooked theology like that.
@gtrjunky It's one thing to just say it's "off the wall" it's another thing to explain why, not just because it conflicts with what you believe. You say I'm in danger because of my theology, & that's just sad to hear, because you've chosen to ignore every word I've said. & I never once said your theology was wrong, I said it was wrong of you to tell others their theology was wrong, when we all put our faith in Jesus Christ as our salvation. You are no better than us, nor is your theology better
@MarkToTheSky Well, it's not "my theology", it's what the bible says. You can explain WHERE you got this man-invented idea. What you said is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE.
@gtrjunky Because I'm not quoting the scripture, and neither are doctrines.. I'm quoting facts. The reason why you consider me a universalist, is only because I'm trying to be like the early church members, eternal damnation is not an early Christian Orthodox belief, so it is not one of mine either. Like I told you, Jesus doesn't preach "hell" he preaches the word "Gehenna", as for the word eternal, the proper word would have been "eon" which like I said before, does not mean eternal.
@MarkToTheSky No, you're quoting a redefined, false history. That tired OLD argument about Gehenna don't fly. You got this crap from some book or something written by some stinking heretcal universalist. Yes I did say that. It's dispicable that this lying filth deceives the lost. Universalists are nothing but idolators whgo worship a weak, worthless, spineless, ficticious god.
@gtrjunky I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you are the one who abides to a deformed, false history. Gehenna does fly, because that's the proper word, it's what Jesus himself said, so it has to fly. This isn't from a book, & to be honest, you are closer to an idolator because you accept all the pagan rubbish that has been attached.
@MarkToTheSky Well, all of this false information CANNOT be assertained from sola scriptura. You learned this from some pagan,liberal source. The doctrine of Hell and God's eternal judgement begins with His Holiness and man's sinfulness. There is NO PLACE IN SCRIPTURE where thedre is a single mention of goats being turned into sheep. Only a moron could read the plain text of scripture and draw these false conclusions you advocate.
@MarkToTheSky From the OT to the NT, the bible makes strong distinction between believers and unbelievers, sheeps and goats, wheat and tares. And again, there is ZERO MENTION of tares being transformed into wheat.
To start, your soteriology is unbiblical or...non existent. Romans 9 makes crystal clear distinction between God's "elect" and those whom are chosen for the demonstration of His wrath and justice.
@MarkToTheSky The reason you're an idolator is because you don't like the idea of God giving people what they deserve. Instead, you chose to worship a god that does what you (a sinful fallen man) would do. You reject God's choice and thus fulfill Paul's words in Romans 9..."Who are you O man who answers back to God".
@gtrjunky If I read the scriptures, & concluded to myself that it proclaimed we'd go to hell, I'd be perfectly fine with excepting that, because his will be done in all things. But there's no way I could conclude that, I'm not afraid to accept God for who he is, but I will be weary to accept a man made doctrine that was INTRODUCED into Christianity. & this isn't conspiracy theory, do some research for yourself before you present yourself in all your pie-eyed piety. I'm not alone in my "theology"
@MarkToTheSky No you're not alone in "your theology"...and the Mormons are not alone in their "theology" and the Wiccans aren't either. The problem is you have chosen to help perpetuate a lie made by man not based upon the plain text of scripture. Do you have the nerve to share what book it is you've learned this from, because you did NOT arrive at this conclusion on your own? You see, these are the ramblings of someone else you have chosen to listen to.
@gtrjunky You can't on one hand rebuke someone for not reading "the plain text of scripture", and on the other hand allude to the various meanings of an original Greek word, i.e. the Greek for "perish". Pick a stance and stick to it.
Speaking for me, I did come to the conclusion (without the help of a heretical book) that the doctrine of hell wasn't in keeping with the gospel. It just doesn't fit. From there I began to look into it and see what others had to say.
@SouthIslandSurf Sure you can! There isn't a language around that makes the fallacy of applying a single definition to a word all the time. Does a baseball player use a small flying rodent (bat) to hit a ball??? No. It's using grammatical principles in the interpretation of reading.
@MarkToTheSky It's really obvious that you haven't a clue about scripture or church history. You also (like most of the universalists) continue to tuck tail and run on a single issue rather than sticking to it until your point is made. I can't tell you how many conversations w/ Uni's I've had on here and they all do the same thing. Your first few home spun statements never got resolved and now you're running off to something else. How's abour we resolve your rediculous "yoke" scubalon and first?
@gtrjunky You see, I've not disrespected you in any way, but plenty of times have you disrespected me throughout this discussion, why do you feel the need to do so? I am not a "universalist" I don't believe all men are born saved, I don't believe all roads lead to God. & where does your theology come from? the doctrine of hell is also someone else's ramblings, the pastor yousee every sunday is also rambling. God didn't appoint ANYONE in charge of interpreting the bible, that's our personal duty
@MarkToTheSky As far as "disrespect"...I'm sorry that by telling you you're wrong that you consider that "disrespectful". So yes it is the "personal duty" for one to read and un derstand what the author intended to say but, that does not mean that your own "personal" conclusions are correct.
@gtrjunky Yes I understand that brother, but that goes both ways, it also means that your personal conclusions aren't correct, & perhaps they aren't your conclusions, in that case the person who inspired your conclusions( pastor ect.) could also be incorrect. The Bible is the word of God, we can't change it, & we shouldn't attach more to it, all we can do, is read it to the best of our understanding, and live it out as best we can. & I told you already, I'm not a uni.
@gtrjunky I didn't reply because that's not a legitimate question brother. Why would you want to change the scriptures? Why would you deform the scriptures to justify an idea?
@gtrjunky I'm not avoiding answering that because it's somehow a universalist kryptonite. Because first, I told you I'm not a universalist, I believe if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, that you will be "destroyed" the second death is death of the soul, no more existence. Second, that question doesn't hold water, because it's not even a good argument, even if I were to answer it, it' wouldn't provide anything insightful for either of us.
@MarkToTheSkyNo, the problem for you is that you want to quote scripture when it's an absolute that is convenient for you but when someone else does it then all of a sudden, biblical interpretation becomes a subjective issue.
Now, man up and answer...where do you get the idea that we cannot change scripture?
@gtrjunky That's like saying "Hey you know what? Let's just discard the whole immaculate conception thing. Let's just change the scriptures to say Jesus didn't literally get resurrected, let's change the scriptures so that a total of four words translate into one improper word". It's not right, & it's not our duty to change the scriptures, it's the inspired word of God, and who are you to feel that you have the authority to change it?
@MarkToTheSky Quit changing the subject and answer the question. Oh that's right you can't. You've cut yourself off from being able to quote scripture because you've relegated the bible to "personal interpretation" therefore there is no absolute truth.
@gtrjunky I answered your question, it is the inspired word of God, we can change our interpretations, but we can't change the scriptures, because we cannot change God, God is the same today, as he was and will be. I think this discussion is over, since you seem to be under the delusion that you are actually stumping me. So yeah, agree to disagree. god bless you brother.
@gtrjunky What kind of answer are looking for? You're making no sense. & I didn't say that the word of God is only as important as our own personal interpretation, I said it's better to make your own decisions in your heart about what each verse means, rather than reading with any doctrinal attachments, or having a pastor (who is just a man) tell you what he thinks it means. All you're doing is trying to keep this discussion alive, for the matter of pride and your unquenchable drive to be right.
@MarkToTheSky I did use the word "important". Your feet are planted firmly in mid air, with nothing other than your personal opinion as your standard for truth. Thats NOT the answer I'm looking for. How 'bout this question...who says that the bible is the word of God?
@MarkToTheSky I decided to try your interpetive method. The word "yoke" has been changed, it's now a short stick used to scrape dog poo off your shoes. "Parables" are now small wooden handles that attatch to a basket and "Raca" is the name of an ancient jewish rock band.
@gtrjunky Why do perpetually insult me? I've said nothing to you, I've not insulted you, but this conversation still boils your blood enough to come back days later to mock me. I no longer want to talk to you, which is why I've ignored you and held my peace. I will not steep to your level brother, but I pray that you learn how to be considerate to your brothers "And whoever says to his brother 'Raka!' will be subject to the Council." -Matthew 5:22
@MarkToTheSky As I said, you want to make absolute assertions (from the bible) when it works in your favor but when someone else does it and it is against your favor, you back peddle and label the word of God as a matter of personal interpretation. Inconsistent!
@gtrjunky & I'd be happy to share some of my references, try Hosea 13:11-14, Lamentations 3:31-33, James 1:17, 1 Timothy 2:3, James 2:13, Psalm 65:2-4, Isiah 26:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:28. & another non-biblical book which made sense to me is "The History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution" by Edward Beecher, but I completely drew my conclusions from my own interpretation of scripture.
@MarkToTheSky Listen, I'm very familiar with MANY of the verses that Uni's rip out of context and use as a prooftext. Once a verse or 2 gets refuted, their typical tactic is to tuck tail and run onto another verse (also ripped from context),
@MarkToTheSky You see, "my theology" (as you put it) says that it's OK to tell other people that their theology is wrong. So, what you are actually doing is telling me that "my theology" is wrong. You are inconsistent with your own words.
@MarkToTheSky I'm sorry that you get your post modern feelings hurt when someone tells you that you are "wrong"...my advice is to get a thicker skin. You see, the hypocricy is that it's OK for you to tell people they're wrong but it's "mean" when someone tells you you're wrong. My other advice is for you to put away your Universalism books with their filthy, man-made ideas that have defecated on God's word, repent and read God's word alone. Perhaps God may grant you repentance.
@Dwrancho144 You are absolutely right friend. Not only do these christians believe in hell. they endorse it. After all. how dare God save all men while they them selves believed. It reminds me of the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard in Matt 20, but heres the catch. In verse 16 it says “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
These haters of the lost ones will find themselves eventually in great error. They are as selfrightouse as the pharisees were.
Wow Doug needs to read the Bible!
astherrien 3 weeks ago
If Hell is anything less than eternal in your mind then take heed, lest you be as Israel and become ignorant of God's righteousness. For by stripping God's righteousness of it's eternality you are in danger of making the cross of Christ useless, inasmuch as anyone who murders Him on the earth will eventually be accepted anyway. And God is clear, that no sinner (without grace) will ever inherit the Kingdom of God. Don't be fooled by that damning Universalist lie; there's no hope outside of Christ
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
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KingdomUploader 3 months ago
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@KingdomUploader Revelation 5:13 "Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
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KingdomUploader 3 months ago
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@jayjaygee123 Correct! there is no hope outside of Christ Jesus; all nations of peoples will be given the truth at some point and at that point "every knee shall bow and tongue confess Him as Lord. remember brother that "no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws him, not me or you or any threat of hell but the Spirit of the living God will draw them in due season. "no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit. All will come to know Him; please read Revelation 5:13
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
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KingdomUploader 3 months ago
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KingdomUploader 3 months ago
*Mocking* "You're the one who wants to be precise about words, that's why you put sentences together like that."
lol
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
I have come to view Jesus' atonement as being truly universal. Hell may serve a remedial function but not, I strongly suspect, an eternally punitive one. In this view, Hell exists and God's perfect mercy and love are validated.
Pacisdiligo 3 months ago
@Pacisdiligo Strongly suspecting something doesn't mean it's true. But hey, if you want to continue running your race as fast as you can to eternal damnation based on strong suspicion, who am I to judge?
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123: Please point to the passage in the Bible that declares (or even infers) that one must believe that Hell is eternal in order to be saved.
Pacisdiligo 3 months ago
@Pacisdiligo Romans 10:2-3 "For I bear them witness (Israel) that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God."
They ignored God's righteous judgment; He is a God of wrath who judges rightly. They thought they could attain that righteousness on their own. Or in American context, they thought they weren't that bad and God would have mercy.
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123: You didn't answer my question. That passage has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Again, please point to ANY passage in the Bible that even suggests that one has to believe that Hell is eternal in order to be saved. THAT was the main point of my initial post.
Pacisdiligo 3 months ago
@Pacisdiligo Please learn to argue better and actually accept Christian doctrines before you call yourself a Christian.
I say again, Romans 10 verses 1-4, where Paul says he desires that Israel be SAVED but says they are ignorant of God's righteous standard.
And might I ask if not saved from hell then what? If not saved from death then what? A meaningless life? Give me a life with no meaning; if I have hoped in Christ in this life only I am of all people most pitied.
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123 "Argue better"? When you can't even defend the position you've taken with a single Scripture reference? My initial post affirmed the atonement of Christ. It even affirmed the existence of Hell. My departure from orthodoxy is specifically at the point of whether or not Hell is indeed eternal or possibly temporal. The Adventist position of annihilationism is another interesting possibility. Salvation doesn't hinge on this topic.
Pacisdiligo 3 months ago
@Pacisdiligo In laymen's terms I am telling you that you also are ignorant of God's righteousness. You don't understand how holy God is. You are in risk of the very hellfire you are denying.
1 scripture reference? Try looking at Christ's warnings about hell in Mark 9:42-50 where "The worm does not die and the fire is not quenced." That's eternal. Or how about Abraham's message to the rich man in Luke 16? "...Between us is a great fulf fixed...(those who want to pass from there to here) cannot."
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123: Ignorant? An interesting choice of words there. There are passages that suggest that Hell is eternal and some that suggest that it is not. However, that wasn't even the point of my response to your initial reply. Your "zeal" clouds your ability to argue rationally.
Pacisdiligo 3 months ago
@Pacisdiligo If a police officer is assassinated it is a heinous crime and worthy of sever punishment. But if a president is assassinated the entire nation mourns and crime is far more heinous. How much more, then, is rejecting an infinitely Holy King and trampling His Son underfoot? Sin against an infinitely righteous God, Who's every way is good and in whom is no darkness, is infinitely detestable, and in murdering Christ (as all do who reject Him) we are worthy of an infinite punishment.
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123 this analogy is futile; murder is the sin; it does not matter who dies. oh, and "worthy of infinite punishment'? read jer.17: 10 “I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve."
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
@Pacisdiligo I use the term Paul used because it is appropriate. You don't understand how righteous God is. You forget that in our first sin God had every right to wipe man off the face of the earth and cast Adam into hell, but in His mercy He provided atonement; clothing Him with the skin of an animal. You make hell temporary, which is a damning lie for anyone who would listen. Why should I repent if eventually I'll be forgiven anyway? Don't fool with immovable doctrines; too much is at stake.
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
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Pacisdiligo 3 months ago
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@jayjaygee123: If God were so deeply concerned with people believing in Hell in general and an eternal Hell in particular, then why is the concept nowhere to be found in the Old Testament? Why would He leave it off the syllabus for millenia until the time of Christ? And even in the New Testament the subject of Hell is clouded with vagueries and subject to differing interpretations.
Pacisdiligo 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123 Now you're asking a decent question. But is it not the God of the Old Testament who's viewed as a God of wrath? See in Genesis the flood, which is God's punishment on the whole world for sin. Just as Christ isn't "revealed" but pointed to, so is Hell. Are you going to ask if Old Testament saints had to believe in Christ too? God has always been deadly serious with sin; by one man's sin the whole universe was curse. Hell is no human doctrine. Christ preached more on it then anyone.
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123 "Christ preached more on it then anyone"; i get the typo and understand this statement; it is one that really sticks in my spiritual craw. it is rhetoric that hell fire preachers use to substantiate their claims. Jesus taught more on money/wealt than hell; he talked about loving God and each other more than hell; He talked about the Kingdom of God more than hell. do the math brother and please stop repeating what Icon preachers say.
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
@KingdomUploader If it was not a typo and you did say that "Christ preached more on hell than anyone", i would reason that IF IT WAS SO POWERFULLY AND SO POTENTLY NECESSARY, WHY DOES THE BOOK OF ACTS AND THE OTHER APOSTOLIC BOOKS LEAVE IT OUT?
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
@Pacisdiligo amen
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123 Everyone i know who believes that God forsakes MOST people to the st. Augustine view of on-going never ending torture in what are metaphorical flames....or "flame" sing. in the laz. and rich man parable, and that IS a parable, are not studying the original language usage and they certainly do not understand the old testament as it relates to the new. wasting our breath we are with people who give more value and credence to God's just-ness than to His incredible reconciling love
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123 sorry bout my last post; it should have been directed to Pacisdiligo. Be blessed with the Grace and mercy of God this morning brother.
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
@Pacisdiligo Everyone i know who believes that God forsakes MOST people to the st. Augustine view of on-going never ending torture in what are metaphorical flames....or "flame" sing. in the laz. and rich man parable, and that IS a parable, are not studying the original language usage and they certainly do not understand the old testament as it relates to the new. wasting our breath we are with people who give more value and credence to God's just-ness than to His incredible reconciling love
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123 "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21
If "hell" then this verse should have read "......save His people from "hell". please also read John 1:29 John 4:42 Colossians 1:20
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
@KingdomUploader I don't give more credence to God's justice; you just give it none. If hell is not eternal then our gospel is a useless thing because all men will be saved eventually anyways. Univerisalists preach a damning lie, because it tells sinners "You're ok in your sins, God will eventually forgive you anyway." But Christ says "Unless you repent you will also likewise perish." (Luke 13:3) Do you think he was concerned with this life only? Don't be ignorant of God's righteousness.
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
@KingdomUploader And arguing that as simply a parable doesn't change the truthfulness of Christ's words. Or can we not see that when God divides the wheat and the tares that He's talking about a actual event but using figurative language? There is no two ways around this; that parable is a clear picture of the eternal sufferings of hell and you can't just cut it out because you don't like it.
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123 Brother,in a parable,it is not the "props" used as description we are to note; we are to find the purpose and meaning that it offers, crudely, the punch line.the parable simply points to the high and lofty pharisees finding in the end that the gentiles they were excluding are now secure with the Father while they are cast down to gehenna, the place where, figuratively, anything that is not of value to the kingdom goes I've walked in your understanding for thirty years; no more.
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
@KingdomUploader Oh, it's not the props huh? So I guess the seed and sower the important things aren't the seeds or the sower or what they represent or the soil, but that some things grow and some things don't. Everything is the bible is important. Yes, some things are symbolic and some things aren't repeated much, but because Christ said "It is finished" only once doesn't change it's significance.
And stop trying to sound smart; there was no change in meaning in that rearrangement.
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123 "stop trying to sound smart" howabout you stop judging my motives!
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
@KingdomUploader Christ did preach more on hell than anyone else in all of scripture. There is no argument there; it's a fact. Yes, He didn't preach on it more than anything else, but He was the most adamant fire and brimstone preacher recorded in the bible. God doesn't often say in the Old Testament "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength," but isn't that the most important commandment? Are you gonna say that's not important because it's not commonly explicit?
jayjaygee123 3 months ago
@jayjaygee123 I hear you...but still....there is no hell warnings in the soul saving in the apostles Acts; i would think since Jesus was all about hell that the apostles would have been hell fire preachers. it's not there. and according to tradition the great commission should read: "go into all the world and warn people that they are hell bound and then make ye converts!"
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
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Todd, John Mac and the like should come to the scripture with a humble heart and ask the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. I suggest that you set your education aside and revisit the doctrine of scripture. I believe it is as plain as can be that the wages of sin is death. The Jews with their knowledge of scripture missed the Messiah. The Catholic church missed Grace. Could you be missing something? We know in part. No one has arrived!
Georgephyl 4 months ago
Todd, John Mac and the like should come to the scripture with a humble heart and ask the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. I suggest that you set your education aside and revisit the doctrine of scripture. I believe it is as plain as can be that the wages of sin is death. The Jews with their knowledge of scripture missed the Messiah. the Catholic church missed Grace. could you be missing something. we know in part. No one has arrived!
Georgephyl 4 months ago
I'll answer Todd Friel's question. Where do good Buddhists go when they die?
The same place everyone else goes. To the grave until the last day when the dead are resurrected at the coming of Christ.
Immortal Soul doctrine is pagan. Todd Friel is an arrogant SOB.
FAITHandLOGIC 4 months ago
I can't stand Todd Friel. Arrogance at its worst. Hell is a lie - a pagan lie. Maybe Todd Friel needs to read a history book.
FAITHandLOGIC 4 months ago
@FAITHandLOGIC Hopefully brother todd is not perpetuating his widely accepted doctrines simply "for filthy lucre's sake".
KingdomUploader 3 months ago
Wow, this sounds like BBC vs 3KB with 3KB saying, "You came at me wrong, no debate, k?"
failfiction 5 months ago in playlist More videos from LaneCh
It's easy to take verses out of context...
whatthehellbook . com
alyssafaithbaer 5 months ago
Gosh! I feel so sorry for this Doug Pagitt guy. He's a pastor (?) and can't answer a simple question about the after life!!!
dudufaria 5 months ago
THIS DOUG GUY IS A FALSE TEACHER,,,HES A WOLF,,,HES A SNAKE
candiceevans1 5 months ago
May I recommend a book for all who are interested in looking deeper into this topic? "Whatever Became of Melanie" by Allan R. Chevrier. I find the interviewer very condescending and arrogant toward his guest. These men are two Christians who love the Lord and have a difference of interpretation. The interviewer is mocking in his tone. Too bad.
lja000 6 months ago
I learned a long time ago to beware of so-called ministers of God who stall, focus on trivial matters, and ultimately give ambiguous responses when asked the most important questions about their beliefs (on things like salvation, Jesus being the only way, the doctrine of hell, etc). These are straightforward questions that deserve straightforward (Biblical) answers. They're only difficult to answer clearly, when you're trying to hide something.
ChristJesusSaves 6 months ago
Hell is but mythology, and unfortunately,it's part of the metalanguage of theology. So, why are you spinning "hell" as if it's real?
theNCGstudios 6 months ago
For those who believe in temporary punishment, I say this:
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The devil, the beast (a man) and the false prophet (another man) will burn forever. Right?
Add to that what Jesus said to the 'goats' Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
And????
catholicexodus 7 months ago
This man is way out there! He can not understand a place? How can he understand anything then? A place is a noun meaning a specific location, in case anyone is interested! Gee Whiz!
patandkatesma 7 months ago
WILL YOU PLEASE SPARE US THESE COMMERCIALS WITH THERE UNGODLY CONTENT? PLEASE
KingdomUploader 7 months ago
@KingdomUploader Really!
catholicexodus 7 months ago
If Jesus paid the ultimate price and took upon Himself the wrath of God for those who believe on Him; and with the Ultimate penalty obviously being eternal conscious torment in hell, then why is Jesus not now and forever more burning in hell?
KingdomUploader 7 months ago 2
@KingdomU REad the bible and you'll get your answer.
ral196988 6 months ago
@KingdomUploader Well said. Hit my channel...
Cutie9326 3 months ago
Hey LaneCh, NT Wright and the Eastern Orthodox do not believe that there is a literal place called hell too.
brendos444 7 months ago
doug is a moron!
rejectofthemoon 7 months ago
I am confused with Pagitt. He makes his own interpretation when the fact of the matter is the verses can be understand by 6 or 8 year old child.
UliponNiCristo 7 months ago
thi spastor is a heretic
HackerzInc 8 months ago
Jesus never used the word hell, he used the word Gehenna,,, which back then meant something completely different to the Jews then what Christians are taught nowadays by the "system".
The doctrine of hell is indeed false... spiritual language that has been taken literally when in fact it has spiritual implications for all those who tr to be right with God based on human effort.
Love Jesus, not the Christian Religion
LoveJesusNotReligion 8 months ago in playlist Issues Facing the Church From Within
@LoveJesusNotReligion Ok then what did the word Gehenna mean?
THEAVANT2009 7 months ago
@LoveJesusNotReligion - there are many greek words used in the word hell not just Gehenna, example Jesus used the greek word Hades in Revelation 1:18. If the teaching of hell is false then why is it it is all over at least in the N.T??? Could you explain what these verses meant Matt 5:30, Rev. 21:8, Luke 12:4-5???
UliponNiCristo 7 months ago
@UliponNiCristo - True enough there are Hades, Sheol, Tartaurus and Gehenna to be exact, none of which according to the Jewish understanding (original meaning) have anything to due with the way hell is taught nowadays. I could explain the other verses you listed, but would you believe? Probably not. May I suggest LoveJesusNotReligion d o t o r g
LoveJesusNotReligion 7 months ago
This type of communication is not helpful to sinners who are listening - disrespect, talking over each other, talking in incomplete sound-bytes rather than fully explaining a point of view. Ridiculous and immature! We should seize every opportunity to declare Truth, not waste people's time.
ProphetessTelharesha 9 months ago
Funny how Doug squirms and doesn't want to talk.
Doug is saying it's incorrect to ask where one goes when they die. Wow.
Another sheep with sharp teeth.
joeforHistruth 9 months ago
Well it's some sad nonsense he is lead into. Simply believe all are to be judged of their works and all are eventually saved, elect or not.
Endnuenfyr 10 months ago
No matter how wrong Pagitt is, Todd Friel sounds like a patronizing idiot.
DevlinUK 10 months ago 2
@DevlinUK
absolutelyt right. there is heresy on one hand and nastiness in orthodox profession on the other.
How to fix that? admit we do not know God and are in the dark.
but this the likes of Friel and Ray Comfort will not do
Strefanasha 9 months ago
@DevlinUK A big amen for your thoughts on shrill Friel or should i say 'Odd Todd":~) I was thinking perhaps Pagitt might be more persuasive in a different setting.
KingdomUploader 6 months ago
I don't usually respond to this type of thing, but I feel I need to say that there is a lot of talking around questions that are being ask. I know that when I don't want to be very specific with my children, I will talk around the subject with them so I don't have to speak the truth to them until they are old enough to understand it. That appears to be what is going on here. The only problem is that we are adults and we can see through it. If you are truly a Christian you can discern that.
Tjfish1 10 months ago
Everyone who has ever lived, from Adolf Hitler to Martin Luther King, deserves to be TORTURED FOR ETERNITY just for existing. God created us with the intent and foreknowledge that at least 85% of us would spend eternity as human Duraflames. God is unending, patient, incomprehensable love, but the second a non-Christian dies, He suddenly turns into unending HATRED and VENGENCE.
Sounds about right to me. I can live with that.
roguetrip99 10 months ago
@roguetrip99 So tell me why a man is saved if he only believes in God to avoid hell?
SwordofManticorE 10 months ago
@SwordofManticorE I don't think you detected the sarcasm in "Sounds about right to me. I can live with that."
roguetrip99 10 months ago
@roguetrip99 Oh, my apoligies.
SwordofManticorE 10 months ago
@roguetrip99 How can I love a God like that? does his 'longsuffering' just snap at some point? How does our roasting away throughout all ages bring glory to God?
KingdomUploader 7 months ago
@KingdomUploader again, that was sarcasm
roguetrip99 7 months ago
Seems i probably do agree with Doug in some issues. Seems when one beloieves in evolution tend todestroy a lot more people compared to what Christians do. Go look in the ideal of fundamentalism and what they opposed. For instance, Fosdick supported Eugenics and thought we should handle Hitler as not to condemn him.
daveme7 10 months ago
John MacArthur should have done this Doug was asking to be put away, Todd made very hard work out of putting this heretic away he seemed ill-prepared
jmanexpress 10 months ago
Jude 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Is this the verse he is referring to? As a pastor who recites it every Sunday with his church, you'd think he would be able to at least partially quote it!
AcaiBunch 10 months ago
It sounds like Dough Pagitt needs to get into his Word deeper. Or maybe at all? >:-(
AcaiBunch 10 months ago
lol Doug is a pastor? wow
ghosthunter5656 10 months ago
Two guys who both say they follow Jesus - both interrupting and being rude with each other. How does this dialog compare to the example of Jesus' dialog with anyone?
jgjacksonmn 11 months ago
I can't believe people actually listen to this guy, and buy the crap that he is slinging. Sad
MrSB1274 11 months ago
The wages of sin is death. Jesus came that none should perish. The main thrust of scripture, when looked at as a whole, is that jesus saves us from DEATH and gives eternal LIFE. There very well may be a litteral lake of fire, but those who are cast in will perish, their souls extinguished.
SouthIslandSurf 1 year ago
@SouthIslandSurf The "none" who perish are those whom the Father has given Him.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky My emphasis wasn't on "none", but on "perish". It doesn't say that God so loved the world that He sent His only son that none should suffer in agony for eternity... Because of sin, mankind has been barred from the tree of life, and is now subject to death. Jesus has won victory over that DEATH... the GRAVE. We who place our faith in Him will not PERISH.
SouthIslandSurf 1 year ago
@SouthIslandSurf Indeed, the word "perish", in the greek has multiple definitions. It seems that you are interpreting a koine greek word into a 21st century definition/concept. Try to keep the scripture in context.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@SouthIslandSurf Hallelujah brother.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
Doug Pagitt go into hell, when he die. He is a false teacher, a wolf.
sSayMC 1 year ago
Don't listen to Friel, he makes money from by pointing out "false prophets" that aren't truly false prophets, their just of a different denomination. I've never heard such ignorance spewed from a human mouth, as I have heard come out of Todds. His ways are not Christian, and he is setting a terrible example.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
Satan loves to see Christians fight
revileseraph777 1 year ago
worms=grave, gnashing of teeth= angry people, fire= wrath of GOD.Jesus spoke in parables. Absolutley!!! GOD will restore all those that will exept HIS son when he returns to the earth to establish GODs kingdom.Jesus will judge and seperate the faithful from non faithful.Unfaithful= forever damnation where the worms never die= forever grave, seperated from GOD. Destroyed=finished=dead =hell=sheol=grave.Todd admitts @10:39 that he makes up his own conclusion. Hmmm becareful Todd. Be slow to speak
detailplus 1 year ago
It's very sad that you're putting Doug on the spot with regards to these things when he's being kind enough to accept this interview. It's almost like his sole purpose of being on your show is to prove him wrong.
The conversation doesn't sound Christian at all. Even the interview between Richard Dawkins and Alistair McGrath sounds more mature and Christian than this.
ianleesj 1 year ago
@ianleesj Todd's only interest is to sell his radio show first, then God second.
SwordofManticorE 1 year ago
@SwordofManticorE Wow, shows how much you really don't know. Actually his interest is to proclaim biblical truth and expose frauds like Pagitt and other universalists.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
1 Timothy 2:1-2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
SwordofManticorE 1 year ago
@SwordofManticorE Yep...rip them verses OUT OF CONTEXT to support your filthy false teachings. That's the only way the raw sewage you promote can survive.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky You are like your father the devil. You have been givin truth by scripture but will not believe. You are like the pharisees who acted selfrightouse and still would not believe that Christ is Christ after all the mirecles He did. The word is life, not destruction. A child of the devil does not believe the Word, he (you) decieves others from believing it. If you call yourself a christian, you need to go to a prayer group.
SwordofManticorE 1 year ago
@Swordofjellyfish~It is YOU who LIES like the devil with your false doctrine saying "peace, peace when there is no peace" and gives false assurance to unbelievers. The righteousness I have comes from Christ and I do not advocate works righteousness so please drop the ad hominem attacks, it only shows your weakness.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Dont bother replying or writing me anything. I dont read it.
SwordofManticorE 1 year ago
@Swordofalfredo~Much like your approach to scripture.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Hey gtrjunky! I see your still being a terrible Christian! Just wanted to stop by and say hello, and implore you to reconsider being such a mean person to these fellow youtubers.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Well fortunately God's standard of truth over rules yours. Thanks for sharing your opinion though.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky I figured out what your definition of "mean" is...Anyone who tells someone else they're wrong. If you need help, I know a good log removal service.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky No sir, because you have the god given ability of sincerity, and you show absolutely none, you show absolutely no respect to the people you talk to, & you show such a hardness of heart that engaging in a conversation with a fellow brother like yourself becomes unenjoyable and confrontational, much like Todd here. This is the work of Lucifer, pitting us against one another because of the slightest differences, and you fall for it every time. I will pray for you, & for all of us.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky It's the sincerety that's offensive to you. As I said, "being mean" is telling someone else they're wrong...but it's OK for you to do it. BTW, nice "christ-like" video on your channel. Did the "holy spirit" inspire it?
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky So I suppose it is you who is without sin, because you threw that stone just now. This channel isn't just used for myself, my friends upload on it as well, & yes I have friends that aren't Christian because I'm not afraid of diversity, & my beliefs are my own, unlike you who has to strap everyone they meet down to force-feed them their beliefs because you supposedly want to save them from eternal torture. I invite people in the name of God's sovereignty and love, not scare tactics.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky No, you threw first. So if it's "wrong" to tell others they are wrong then why don't you acknowledge my "diversity"??? Oh I know...you don't like it therefore I'm "wrong".
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky That is just one of the epic failures of yo post modern 21st century "thinkers". You love to cry "diversity, diversity" until someone isn't "diverse" the way you like it, then you label them as "mean" and "hurtful" and all other sorts of strawman terms. The fact is, it epitomizes modern day phariseeism.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky I see, so I'm the pharisee, because I told you you're wrong for telling other people their wrong. That logic is golden, but in reality, you are just the Christian who grew up learning all these man-made doctrines until you were convinced they are absolutely true, so you don't read the bible with your heart, you read it with your reason, you read it with a state of mind. Hell is an extremely pagan outlook, & I can explain that to you sufficiently, but you wouldn't care.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Please analyze the statement yo just typed...
You're telling me I'm wrong for telling other people they are wrong...please stop and think about this v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky You're being rude with this now, you're essentially calling me a fool, and what does our Messiah say about calling your brother a fool? In our past discussions, I used to believe all roads led to God, but I was mislead. The only way is through Yeshua, but that doesn't mean that if you don't have Yeshua, that you are condemned to an eternal hell, since every time the Bible mentions "forever, eternal" it's translated from a hebrew word that means "eon" which is a period of time.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky So Jesus was saying that the word "fool" cannot be uttered by a believer??? Hmmmm I wonder why Paul called the Galatians fools then??? Even though I never called you that.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Your use of that passage CLEARLY denotes a poor handling of the text. If you abuse that passage, it's no wonder you ignore the other CLEAR passages about God's judgment which you have chosen to ignore in favor of the word of man (universalism).
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Think about all the innocent children in third world countries, who have never had the opportunity to know of the love of Christ, do you think it's "just" for them to burn forever, without even having the choice to accept of reject Yeshua? The doctrine of hell was established in the 3rd century by church leaders who adopted this widely accepted pagan idea of punishment, the imagery comes from Dante, & the divine comedy. Early orthodox Christians did not believe in eternal torture.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky "Innocent"??? Another demonstration of a lack of biblical understanding. NO ONE is "innocent". ALL men are guilty before God.
Anyway, I guess you're skirting your fallacious argument to talk about Hell.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky I mean innocent in the sense that they have not been given the opportunity to know. Quit singling out sentences from my replies, and quit beating around the bush. If you want, we can just end this aimless conversation.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Those "single sentences" happen to reflect your bad theology. The bottom line is as aformentioned. You have forsaken God's word in favor of man's and you worship a god of your own liking. One who speaks and acts like you would.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky That is your opinion brother. My theology comes straight from the Bible, it is my hearts interpretation, it's not some pastor's who I go see every Sunday to listen to what he or she may think a certain verse means, it's my completely unbiased interpretation. & you say I favor "mans word" when you are the one that abides to man-made doctrine. You favor a corruption, a deformation.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Well then if biblical interpretation is merely a matter of one's own "heart" then you have no grounds for objection to ANYTHING ANYONE else says regarding biblical matters.
Yes you are favoring man's word and worshipping a god of your imagination...one who acts and thinks like you do; one who is NOT Holy nor just.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Jewish rabbi's all had "yokes" that was their interpretation of the scriptures, when they met in synagogues, they listened to each other's yokes, and discussed it openly. They didn't cry "false prophet!" every time someone had a different interpretation, they didn't make an attempt to insult one another, they didn't have the nerve to ever say that they were worshiping two different gods.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Wow dude...that's all I can say is "wow". That ranks high on the list of some of the most OFF THE WALL statements I seen someone write. I think you should send your resume to Rob Bell's church. They would surely put you on staff with home cooked theology like that.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky It's one thing to just say it's "off the wall" it's another thing to explain why, not just because it conflicts with what you believe. You say I'm in danger because of my theology, & that's just sad to hear, because you've chosen to ignore every word I've said. & I never once said your theology was wrong, I said it was wrong of you to tell others their theology was wrong, when we all put our faith in Jesus Christ as our salvation. You are no better than us, nor is your theology better
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Well, it's not "my theology", it's what the bible says. You can explain WHERE you got this man-invented idea. What you said is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Because I'm not quoting the scripture, and neither are doctrines.. I'm quoting facts. The reason why you consider me a universalist, is only because I'm trying to be like the early church members, eternal damnation is not an early Christian Orthodox belief, so it is not one of mine either. Like I told you, Jesus doesn't preach "hell" he preaches the word "Gehenna", as for the word eternal, the proper word would have been "eon" which like I said before, does not mean eternal.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky No, you're quoting a redefined, false history. That tired OLD argument about Gehenna don't fly. You got this crap from some book or something written by some stinking heretcal universalist. Yes I did say that. It's dispicable that this lying filth deceives the lost. Universalists are nothing but idolators whgo worship a weak, worthless, spineless, ficticious god.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you are the one who abides to a deformed, false history. Gehenna does fly, because that's the proper word, it's what Jesus himself said, so it has to fly. This isn't from a book, & to be honest, you are closer to an idolator because you accept all the pagan rubbish that has been attached.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Well, all of this false information CANNOT be assertained from sola scriptura. You learned this from some pagan,liberal source. The doctrine of Hell and God's eternal judgement begins with His Holiness and man's sinfulness. There is NO PLACE IN SCRIPTURE where thedre is a single mention of goats being turned into sheep. Only a moron could read the plain text of scripture and draw these false conclusions you advocate.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky From the OT to the NT, the bible makes strong distinction between believers and unbelievers, sheeps and goats, wheat and tares. And again, there is ZERO MENTION of tares being transformed into wheat.
To start, your soteriology is unbiblical or...non existent. Romans 9 makes crystal clear distinction between God's "elect" and those whom are chosen for the demonstration of His wrath and justice.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky The reason you're an idolator is because you don't like the idea of God giving people what they deserve. Instead, you chose to worship a god that does what you (a sinful fallen man) would do. You reject God's choice and thus fulfill Paul's words in Romans 9..."Who are you O man who answers back to God".
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky If I read the scriptures, & concluded to myself that it proclaimed we'd go to hell, I'd be perfectly fine with excepting that, because his will be done in all things. But there's no way I could conclude that, I'm not afraid to accept God for who he is, but I will be weary to accept a man made doctrine that was INTRODUCED into Christianity. & this isn't conspiracy theory, do some research for yourself before you present yourself in all your pie-eyed piety. I'm not alone in my "theology"
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky No you're not alone in "your theology"...and the Mormons are not alone in their "theology" and the Wiccans aren't either. The problem is you have chosen to help perpetuate a lie made by man not based upon the plain text of scripture. Do you have the nerve to share what book it is you've learned this from, because you did NOT arrive at this conclusion on your own? You see, these are the ramblings of someone else you have chosen to listen to.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky You can't on one hand rebuke someone for not reading "the plain text of scripture", and on the other hand allude to the various meanings of an original Greek word, i.e. the Greek for "perish". Pick a stance and stick to it.
Speaking for me, I did come to the conclusion (without the help of a heretical book) that the doctrine of hell wasn't in keeping with the gospel. It just doesn't fit. From there I began to look into it and see what others had to say.
SouthIslandSurf 1 year ago
@SouthIslandSurf Sure you can! There isn't a language around that makes the fallacy of applying a single definition to a word all the time. Does a baseball player use a small flying rodent (bat) to hit a ball??? No. It's using grammatical principles in the interpretation of reading.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky It's really obvious that you haven't a clue about scripture or church history. You also (like most of the universalists) continue to tuck tail and run on a single issue rather than sticking to it until your point is made. I can't tell you how many conversations w/ Uni's I've had on here and they all do the same thing. Your first few home spun statements never got resolved and now you're running off to something else. How's abour we resolve your rediculous "yoke" scubalon and first?
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky You see, I've not disrespected you in any way, but plenty of times have you disrespected me throughout this discussion, why do you feel the need to do so? I am not a "universalist" I don't believe all men are born saved, I don't believe all roads lead to God. & where does your theology come from? the doctrine of hell is also someone else's ramblings, the pastor yousee every sunday is also rambling. God didn't appoint ANYONE in charge of interpreting the bible, that's our personal duty
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky As far as "disrespect"...I'm sorry that by telling you you're wrong that you consider that "disrespectful". So yes it is the "personal duty" for one to read and un derstand what the author intended to say but, that does not mean that your own "personal" conclusions are correct.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Yes I understand that brother, but that goes both ways, it also means that your personal conclusions aren't correct, & perhaps they aren't your conclusions, in that case the person who inspired your conclusions( pastor ect.) could also be incorrect. The Bible is the word of God, we can't change it, & we shouldn't attach more to it, all we can do, is read it to the best of our understanding, and live it out as best we can. & I told you already, I'm not a uni.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Who says "we can't chage it"?
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky "change"
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky I guess you'll just skirt that issue. Page 1 of the Uni hand book.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky I didn't reply because that's not a legitimate question brother. Why would you want to change the scriptures? Why would you deform the scriptures to justify an idea?
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Its very legitimate question. Its also one that is problamatic for you...thus you avoid answering it.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky I'm not avoiding answering that because it's somehow a universalist kryptonite. Because first, I told you I'm not a universalist, I believe if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, that you will be "destroyed" the second death is death of the soul, no more existence. Second, that question doesn't hold water, because it's not even a good argument, even if I were to answer it, it' wouldn't provide anything insightful for either of us.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSkyNo, the problem for you is that you want to quote scripture when it's an absolute that is convenient for you but when someone else does it then all of a sudden, biblical interpretation becomes a subjective issue.
Now, man up and answer...where do you get the idea that we cannot change scripture?
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky That's like saying "Hey you know what? Let's just discard the whole immaculate conception thing. Let's just change the scriptures to say Jesus didn't literally get resurrected, let's change the scriptures so that a total of four words translate into one improper word". It's not right, & it's not our duty to change the scriptures, it's the inspired word of God, and who are you to feel that you have the authority to change it?
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Quit changing the subject and answer the question. Oh that's right you can't. You've cut yourself off from being able to quote scripture because you've relegated the bible to "personal interpretation" therefore there is no absolute truth.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky I answered your question, it is the inspired word of God, we can change our interpretations, but we can't change the scriptures, because we cannot change God, God is the same today, as he was and will be. I think this discussion is over, since you seem to be under the delusion that you are actually stumping me. So yeah, agree to disagree. god bless you brother.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky No you didn't. You danced around and did a lot of yakking.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky What kind of answer are looking for? You're making no sense. & I didn't say that the word of God is only as important as our own personal interpretation, I said it's better to make your own decisions in your heart about what each verse means, rather than reading with any doctrinal attachments, or having a pastor (who is just a man) tell you what he thinks it means. All you're doing is trying to keep this discussion alive, for the matter of pride and your unquenchable drive to be right.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky I did use the word "important". Your feet are planted firmly in mid air, with nothing other than your personal opinion as your standard for truth. Thats NOT the answer I'm looking for. How 'bout this question...who says that the bible is the word of God?
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky As far as "pride" is concerned, THAT is what keeps you from the admission of your hypocritical position.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky I decided to try your interpetive method. The word "yoke" has been changed, it's now a short stick used to scrape dog poo off your shoes. "Parables" are now small wooden handles that attatch to a basket and "Raca" is the name of an ancient jewish rock band.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Why do perpetually insult me? I've said nothing to you, I've not insulted you, but this conversation still boils your blood enough to come back days later to mock me. I no longer want to talk to you, which is why I've ignored you and held my peace. I will not steep to your level brother, but I pray that you learn how to be considerate to your brothers "And whoever says to his brother 'Raka!' will be subject to the Council." -Matthew 5:22
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Universalists are not "brothers".
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Incidentally, I'm not insulting you, just your heresies.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky As I said, you want to make absolute assertions (from the bible) when it works in your favor but when someone else does it and it is against your favor, you back peddle and label the word of God as a matter of personal interpretation. Inconsistent!
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky & I'd be happy to share some of my references, try Hosea 13:11-14, Lamentations 3:31-33, James 1:17, 1 Timothy 2:3, James 2:13, Psalm 65:2-4, Isiah 26:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:28. & another non-biblical book which made sense to me is "The History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution" by Edward Beecher, but I completely drew my conclusions from my own interpretation of scripture.
MarkToTheSky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky Listen, I'm very familiar with MANY of the verses that Uni's rip out of context and use as a prooftext. Once a verse or 2 gets refuted, their typical tactic is to tuck tail and run onto another verse (also ripped from context),
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky You see, "my theology" (as you put it) says that it's OK to tell other people that their theology is wrong. So, what you are actually doing is telling me that "my theology" is wrong. You are inconsistent with your own words.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky I'm sorry that you get your post modern feelings hurt when someone tells you that you are "wrong"...my advice is to get a thicker skin. You see, the hypocricy is that it's OK for you to tell people they're wrong but it's "mean" when someone tells you you're wrong. My other advice is for you to put away your Universalism books with their filthy, man-made ideas that have defecated on God's word, repent and read God's word alone. Perhaps God may grant you repentance.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky BTW, what is the name of the book/books where you are aquiring this horse scubalon (that's greek for crap)?
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@MarkToTheSky BTW, I didn't "grow up" anything. I was brought up in a PAGAN/diverse/all roads lead to god type of house. So I used to think like you.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
IF you really believed that hell was real then you would be out preaching 24/7 with no sleep !!!
if you really look at every sinner as someone who is headed to hell then you would have an adrenaline rush to find out the quickest way to save them
the only problem is NO christian truly believes in hell because they life testifies that they
If there is a bomb in the house then tell people there is and stop trying save your own life
do look and speak to unsaved family like this?
Dwrancho144 1 year ago
@Dwrancho144 You are absolutely right friend. Not only do these christians believe in hell. they endorse it. After all. how dare God save all men while they them selves believed. It reminds me of the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard in Matt 20, but heres the catch. In verse 16 it says “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
These haters of the lost ones will find themselves eventually in great error. They are as selfrightouse as the pharisees were.
SwordofManticorE 1 year ago