No, I have no claim to expertise. It just seems obvious that when someone like Ravi claims to have received truth from god he probably suffers from NPD at best, or is crazy as a bedbug at worse. LOL.
@JGL53 Obvious how? What makes you assume that he definitely has nothing divine to back him up? Seriously, explain to me what makes it so obvious, because he certainly doesn't seem senile or insane to me. In fact, I'll stick my neck out for him and say I've never seen someone argue for the Christian worldview as well as he does.
Jesus also said: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." In other words, most of us are screwed. Isn't that special?
@AnnRKey Well...his point is that most people will repeatedly walk right by the narrow gate because it seems so much less powerful, so much less significant, because it claims that there is a difference between right and wrong. But, in the end, they'll either turn back in pain because something hurt them, or they'll just stay there and die in pain. It's all our choice is his point. Most will be stubborn and refuse to turn back, and as a result will only be hurt again. Its a neverending cycle.
@AnnRKey And technically, he didn't say that "most of us are screwed." He jus said that most of us will CHOOSE to be screwed. But, thanks to Jesus himself, people can turn away from that and still take the narrow gate. Before Christ, that wasn't an option; if you were marked a sinner, you were a sinner. See, it's entirely up to us; God wants to help us back through the narrw gate and beyond, but most people would rather stay in the world of ugliness that they know.
@Cierrakahana You aren't getting it. Most of us ARE screwed. If it weren't so, the Bible would be wrong, which it is, but the point is that every moment Jesus waits there are many more innocent babies born that will inevitably take the wide gate. It is written. And none of us chose to be born. I am rejecting the alleged narrow gate because the story makes no sense. If it made sense, I wouldn't reject it. I can't help how my brain works.
@AnnRKey Once again, you say "inevitable" like it's already been decided for them. You're not taking into consideration that people have free will. Like I said before, the world we live in is a few points from being directly controlled by Satan. Otherwise, people would be a whole lot happier. But, because Satan is so freaking clever, he beats people down in as many ways as he can until they're ocnvinced there's no hope. It's all a very sick game he plays with us. Only God can help us there.
@Cierrakahana ...on a side note, thanks for not being rude in your replies. I really do hate when people start throwing downright obscene comments; it breaks very single rule of debate out there. I really do appreciate people who are calm enough to bite back the urge to be rude.
@Cierrakahana Did we have free will to choose whether or not we would be born into this f'ed up world? There is no Satan. And even if there were, why would God allow It to deceive us? Why did the God of the Bible allow Satan into the Garden of Eden? The God of the Bible is a dick. Convince me I'm wrong.
@AnnRKey Dude, how can you have free will when you don't even exist? That point doesn't make any sense; it's like an artist trying to ask what his painting wants to be before he's even made it. It doesn't work that way. And why did God allow Satan into the Garden? Refer back to what I said earlier; he let him through because Satan was going to test how much Adam and Eve really wanted to stay with him. When they turned away from him, he got his answer.
@Cierrakahana Dude, EXACTLY! We didn't have a choice to be born. Now, according to the Bible, most of us are screwed because of a decision made by complete strangers.
I see, so God is testing us with a being far more crafty than his other creations. What a dick! Moreover, God knew we would "fall". He knew we were imperfect. Because he made us that way.
@AnnRKey As for why god lets us be tricked...well, why are you letting yourself get tricked? I'm sorry if that sounds downright offensive, but the simple fact is that you're CHOOSING to believe something else. God gave us that right; that's why everything is so f*cked up right now. If he forced his existence into our heads, he'd be taking away our free will, and God wants us to love him completely of our own choice. So why are people deceived so easily? Because they don't let God talk to them.
@Cierrakahana I am not the one being tricked, it's you that is being tricked. I am not the one choosing to believe something without evidence. Right again, it's God's fault we are in these dire straights. Cut and dried, three truckloads. If God want's me to love "Him", "He" should do something...anything. God can talk to me anytime "He" wants.
@AnnRKey Tricked! God bless you, you clearly know everything. The ONLY reason I believe in Christianity is because every alternative I've seen is full of freaking plotholes. Evolution can't explain irreducible complexity, other religions contradict themselves over and over or refuse to answer tough questions. I knwo there's no point in saying "trust me," but if you'd actually set aside a time to say, "God, just say something!" and actually mean it, something's gonna happen.
@Cierrakahana I know what I know. Talk about plotholes, how about your missing in action Jesus? Some friend. "Saves" us and then leaves. How sorry is that? Irreducible complexity is a joke. Its been shown in court. Christianity can't answer why there needs to be a blood sacrifice. Or why the aforementioned departure of Jesus and why is he waiting so long? Way past asking God to say something. It's an ongoing request, anytime God wants to talk, I am listening.
@AnnRKey It's very funny when you think about it; God is perfectly capable of making us do the right thing, and even though people think that would make us happier, God is so convinced that making us mental slaves would backfire, that he refuses to intrude upon our free will. It's the one barrier the Almighty God will not cross - not that he can't, he just won't.
@Cierrakahana Hilarious. How about God simply putting this alleged Satan in his place like God is ostensibly going to do at some point in time anyway. What's God waiting for? Shit has backfired anyway, at least if we were mental slaves, we wouldn't be facing destruction. Yeah, he doesn't intrude when some twisted mofo wants to do harm to others that are simply minding their own business. Real swell of God to stand idly by.
@AnnRKey Wow. You're really determined not to listen. If you'd listen, you'd hear something. That's all I can really say at this point. Why doesn't God put Satan in his place now? Well. If he did, he'd have to reverse everything that the devil's done, and that would mean sucking the evil out of everything. That he won't do without permission; go whine to the devil if you have a problem with the Holocaust and the other s***, it was his idea after all.
@Cierrakahana This whole project is God's making! Explain this: "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, TO KEEP HIM FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS ANYMORE until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." Set free?!
@AnnRKey ...oh, also, as Ravi himself pointed out in the past, asking why God didn't do things another way is invoking the ability to choose, which you clearly want to have, or you wouldn't have brought it up. The simple fact is not that we're truly looking for change, or wanting things to be better. Yes, that's there, of course, but we want to be able to decide for ourselves above all other matters. THAT is why God refuses to intervene! He gave us that free will for a reason, apparently.
@Cierrakahana Don't you sigh and shake your head at me! Its a perfectly good comparison. Let's put it this way, if I am hiding (like God is) and I see someone assaulting an old lady, I shouldn't intervene since that would stifle free will?
@AnnRKey*sigh, shakes head...* you didn't even read my last reply.No, if the lady asked for help, it would be given...she may not neccesarily get an angel to tell the guy to back off, but she'd get something. God helps those who want to be helped; we just never see it because he has to work around the free will of the offenders. ie, he's subtle.Once again, I say, bad comparison.You're just playing word games at this point;don't do that unless you want me to as well...you know what? just PM me...
@Cierrakahana PM forthcoming, but first, *sigh, pounds head on desk...* I did read your last. You never said anything about the lady asking for help. And you are full of it. "we just never see it". Beauty. How about this: one way or another, God has a twisted sense of morality. If I saw an old lady getting beat, she wouldn't have to ask for my help. I would step in. Oh wait, what if the old lady was already beaten unconscious and couldn't ask for help. What would God do then? Word games my butt.
@AnnRKey God doesn't stand by; he waits. Peopl have been trained to think he's the source of their problems, so they block him out. It's all part of Satan's sick game. If people actually WANTED God to help him, he would! But, we don't want him to help, even if we say we do. We just want somebody to blame, and blame him we DO!
No, we have been trained to believe God blesses. What does the President say at the end of his speeches? But, the fact is: God is the source of our problems. This is God's science project. He is responsible...for everything. The sooner you can grasp that truism, the better.
@AnnRKey The sooner you can grasp that truism, the better? If things are as you claim, we are God's science project and he's the source of our problems, then what do you suggest we do to solve these problems?
@blesstv The first step would be to stop believing in man-made gods. If there is a god, it can only be an abstraction to us. Don't worry about what this god thinks. Recognize that we are all innocent in the abstract and that we are all essentially programmed biological robots. We can't really do anything except what we do. DNA proves we are all equal and the Golden Rule is applicable. Freewill may be an illusion, but we can make choices.
@AnnRKey why only an abstraction? further more i find it quite a task, to say that if God is so powerful to create all that is in existence, where then do we get this conclusion that we can against His wishes. It makes no sense. If a man wishes to rob a bank we bend over backwards to his whims, because he wields the only weapon, a gun. he has the power to take or stay his hand on ones life, how much more shall we not consider if there is a God. A claim such as yours does not follow principle.
@deltaalphacharlie I can only be an abstraction because there is no God interacting with humans. Never has been. Do you know God's wishes? If so, how? Are you suggesting God is like a bank robber holding a gun to our head? What claim of mine does not follow principle?
@AnnRKey i merely give the example to show you in whom rests power do we not adhere to it If nothing more than a hunk of flesh has power over ones life how much more is it that a power unimaginable would be contended Further more I dont think God has wishes Frankly The universe is His playground so to speak. The claim that I am speaking about is the position of power Would you ever answer to a puppy? Or do as that puppy wished you to do in your own home? Yet one treats that puppy with affection
@AnnRKey in the end it seems more fantastic, because it frankly is a thought and and only a thought, or idea. But if in reality There truly is a God, how do you reconcile such power with mere mortals?
@AnnRKey because attesting to whom Jesus Christ is, is writ in blood. If He is who He truly is and can do what Is said He can do then there is a God. If those that saw and bore witness to Him are accurate then there is a God. Furthermore, the brand new people are born of this faith, change that defies what the rest of the world says when people live lives of scum. Thirdly i have my own demons that i wrestle, and if there were no God i'm afraid of what would have become.
@deltaalphacharlie Jesus is not what the Gospels claim. So, now what? There may in fact be no God. There is no evidence of God. And if there is a God, it's not the God of Abraham, this much is certain.
@AnnRKey Says who? The same folks that once said there was never a pontius pilate, the same ones who said there was no such thing as a Hittite, or the ones who said that romans never crucified people. What we hear and what we see count for nothing these days a piece of paper means more than a mans word, and that is a shame. its either hes a liar or he is telling the truth.
@AnnRKey furthermore it is laughable that you would say that about the God of Abraham, i expected you to say there is none period. He is in fact everything the gospels say, because it is written in blood. The testimony of those who witnessed what was done for them and to them, their own blood authenticates what was given them.
@AnnRKey finally the God of Abraham. The principle of power which i spoke about earlier, it is satisfied with Him. If He is Power defined and there is nothing that He needs because essentially He created everything, then that principle of power is satisfied, He gives life because He chooses to not because He wants to but for His own sake. And it has nothing to do with the human beings value of life what so ever.
@AnnRKey It's actually not all that complex. Satan hates us for some reason, not entirey sure I understand why. We don't need to see why to understand that he's an asshole, though. He wants to hurt us, and the best way to do that is to keep us away from our maker, because nothing that Satan makes is ever gonna be good enough to make us truly happy. trouble is, sometimes the plan backfires, and people who are hurt go to God because they're desperate, and find something very special there.
@Cierrakahana Did I say it was complex? Indeed, it's not complex. The God of the Bible is a prankster. An absentee landlord letting the evilest of creatures roam around seeking whom It can devour.
@AnnRKey Oh, don't worry. God has a VERY special plan for the evilest of creatures who go around and hurt his children; just check out Revelations. >:) In the meantime, though, he's letting it continue because he wants to have as many generations come to him as possible.
@Cierrakahana Wow. If God wants the max amount of generations to come to him, then Jesus will never come back. Yet, it is written that he is coming back...soon. So, what about those that would have been born after he comes back? I guess sol on them, eh? At least there won't be any more entering the wide gate, praise Jesus.....
elevadon...u think a 15 wives man saved his soul? had he stop all your challenges? the god that you know made the religion "an islam" < took all the letters from the word "animals" God cannot violate every individual rights to choose and to do what they wanted to to in their lifetime.
God did do something about all you list He did not fix the symptoms all of which you list he proviced the cure and withouth Cost to us and that is his Son to be crucified for you and me so all of this would be solved forever in a coming day....but you have to accept his cure and that is what he waits for
Symbols of dark chaos are blazing again. Showing us all a new way to follow. The army of demons empowered by revenge. The marks of lies engraved on the church. Created by the of god of false love. Demons tear through holy hypocrisy. The empty cowards are now dead. Swiftly defeated by the swords of hell. For those who foolishly adored worthless holiness. Now are enslaved by sadness, melancholy and malice. We are true to Satanic wisdom. As our black witchery will spread eternally.
Aislinnmomma: And one more argument: Why doesn`t Paul in his multiple letters to the christian communities, never mention any of those so called miracles. There is no better way to make a convert then to prove a miracle. But he didn`t. Why. Because there were NO MIRACLES > Period.
Would you consider 'risen from the dead' (Rom 14:9, 1Cor 15:4 etc.) or 'ascended to heaven' (Eph 4:10) miracles?
'signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds' (2Cor 12:12), plus old testament miracles in his letters. Paul even writes that from more than 500 witnesses who have seen Christ alive after His death, the greater part is still alive (1Cor 15:6). Pretty dangerous claim if you ask me.
You are comparing an oral culture with our mass communication culture, thats like comparing apples and oranges. There are 4 eyewitnesses in the Bible. Then there are the outside secular sources of historians of that era. 19 to be exact actually. Jospehus, Thallas...ect ect.
Telll me why this unique miracle worker, who did all these humanly impossible things, is only mentioned in a couple of sentences. Imagine this hapening in this day and age !!!! All history books would be full of it. It would be irrefutable proof of the truth. Yet this did not happen, because :there is only one reason: IT DIDN`T HAPPEN
Sorry, but the scribes and the romans didn't want Jesus to prevail. In the Talmud they say he did miracles by the power of the devil. Weren't too many reporters around back then either. Terribly insulting unintelligent argument sir. Better luck next time.
One example of how to make simple things complicated, "Do I open the door or do I close it". The real question we all have to answer is "DO YOU BELIVE?"
It is seldom I hear such a marvellous speach coming from such a intelligent man. I would really enjoy meeting this person. Thank U for the brain stimulation Mr R. Zacharias
I find it so odd that people claim Jesus never existed and yet think it makes sense that individuals who hated Christianity never claimed this, but actually verified his existence. I guess its a conspircacy,lol.
My post 'Tacitus on Jesus' was a response to the post in which you asked for 'the names of those who hated chritianity and verified the existence of Christ'. It has nothing to do with salvation.
Hey dude, I read that book. Tom Harpur did poor research on outdated scholarship on mystery religions. He relied on Gerald Massey, and Higgins who came up with this copycat hypothesis which was debunked by historians a long time ago. In fact, the evidence is quite strong and I consider the evidence effectively refuted that Jesus was indeed a real historical figure.
Philos2006. There is a fine distinction between fact and opinion here. I don't think you understand the historical techniques historians use to extract truthful data out of documents (bible or outside the bible).There is a way historians extract things that are most likely truthful out of things that may be fiction. Also, outside the bible Jesus is mentioned by Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the younger, Lucian, and etc. Anyways, Almost all professional historians (atheistic or not) would agree w/me.
Clakster28: Have a good look at those testimonies outside the bible ,sir. They mean vey little. Plinus talks about the christians,not about christ,if my memory is correct.Josephus has been tempered with.
As I said, all you have is mere couple of sentences. Peace !!
Josephus: Historians generally accept part of that passage as reliable. So historians accept Jesus being crucified by Pilate as evidence.
Tacitus: Is a pagan Historian that is evidently hostile in his testimony claiming that the new christian religion are criminals and thus describing "christ" as crucified under Pilate again. It describes Nero persecuting them as well.
Crucifixion: Historians know there were other messianic claimants.If they were executed the (cont).
Clarkster28: So you DO accept that that passage has been tempered with, to make it fit with vague prophecies. The question now is sir: If they falsified documents once in order to justify their belief, how many times did it happen before ? How many documents unfit to their belief did they destroy? etc etc.
(Part 1) I accept that the Josephus passage mentioning Jesus's being the messiah was partially forged. The other half of the passage saying he was crucified by pontius pilate and him having followers wasn't. They use embarrassment criteria, and proximity criteria to prove it is most likely authentic. Another josephus passage regarded as fully authentic mentions Jesus's brother James who was crucified. Tacitus's passage mentions Jesus crucifixion. Seems like evidence to me.
(Part 2) Also almost all historians (atheist or not) accept that Jesus was at least a real man that got crucified. There beliefs are another story outside there field. Other evidence include 7 letters of Paul mentioning Jesus lived, had a brother James, and got crucified. You undermine this because there are a few lines said about him in early ancient sources, but neglect to see that a lot of ancient figures people don't doubt only have a few things mentioned. The evidence is stacked against u.
The movement around that self-proclaimed messiah would end and they wouldn't be the messiah anymore. Therefore, there is no way early christians would have made up a crucified messiah (that is oxymoronic). The crucifixion as well is independently attested across the earliest copies of the gospels (that was written in hebrew, aramic, greek), Non-christians testimony by part of Josephus, and Tacitus.
Also, you using the copycat/pagan myths (that was debunked long long ago).
Lord Krishna gita: (7.6) It is I who am the ritual, I the sacrifice, the offering to the ancestors, the healing herb, the transcendental chant... I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support, and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable om. I am also the Rig, the Sama, and the Yajur Vedas. I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend.
What was the whole point of the video showing various hindu gods and goddesses. Hindus believe in one god but many manifestations(attributes). I still dont get it. Christ says worship thy father he is everything. 5000 years before in the gita Krishna says worship me I am everything.
Ark1588 Jesus had writers give an account of his work, life, sayings etc. The writers are John, Mathew, Luke, Mark, and they wrote the gospels that came to be accepted as part of the New Testament, or canonical.
I got news for you. The historicity of Jesus Christ is accepted by the vast majority of historions. They also accept his crucifixion and regard any claims against him as irrefuted. Secular world history doesn't even deny Jesus Christ existence. Any site arguing against his existence are biased sites with an atheistic or freethinking agenda.
Um actually if you look on any encyclopedia (that doesn't have a religious or atheistic agenda like Britannica) you'll see that Horus wasn't born of a virgin mother,and all the others are claims are false. Those are false claims. Jesus and his crucifixation is a true historical fact. Most historions (yes even secular) do not reject his existence. So your going up against any reputable historion there is. This doesn't prove he's god either but his existence.
looked up on earl doherty(jesus puzzle). Yep, there will always be your christ-myth theories but they are/still is considered refuted by most historions. TRUST ME.
Look this is based on a consensus of all historions (Secular and non secular). Yes you have your secular ones for the ahistoricity but a lot are for the historicity. Most historions (The whole population of them) are unanimous that Jesus Christ was a real person who existed. Also, he is a humanist (which tells me he possibly has an atheistic or natural agenda). Still at this present time claims against his existence is effectively refuted.
Ok I did. Horus wasn't born a virgin (he was miraculously concieved and was married. virgin means pure or immaculate), he didn't walk on water (he fell in the water), Never taught at a temple at age 30 nor was baptized, Didn't have 12 disciples Horus had 4, never crucified, and etc. Lots of false claims or attempts to try put parallels together.
Look on any free encyclopedia online on "Jesus Christ" and you will see the name "Earl Doherty" under Jesus myth. Also, you will see "most" historions accept the existence of Jesus. Look up wikepedia or "free encyclopedia". It's in there
Look up also on the Horus, Orisis Gods and you will see none of them have 12 disciples, crucified, and etc. Its cool you and I have different views but dude these parallels are bad evidence and false claims.
Look up Gary Habermas here on youtube and listen to his debates on the "parallels" between Christianity and pagan religions. You'll see that the evidence for the pagan rising gods is far more lacking than the documentary support for that of Christianity.
Saw the video. No offense, but I've done as much research on these other religions and the claims they've made, as I possibly could find. With all due respect, the evidence I've found is in complete contrast to the ignorant claims these videos make. Ex: Mithraism lasted 500 years AFTER Christ, but only came into existence 100 before Christ, thus giving more reason to suspect that Mithraism is a copy off of Christianty, not the other way around.
Also, the earliest documents that support Mithraism are no earlier than 3 or 4 Century A.D. and scholars have not found any evidence of Mithra being buried or dying for that matter. The one "pre-Christian" god that has the clearest data that he was resurrected is Dionysis. However, that resurrection has only been found to be attested in post-Christian sources, centuries after Christ. Trust me Ark, I've done the research. These videos give very poor evidence about the casual links.
Again, you need to look at the research of individuals such as Gary Habermas if you wish to continue debating this material. You'll find that the evidence is completely different from what these videos state.
Actually Ark, this video proves my point even further, not discredit it. No have been no documents found that support Mithras' death. The dates on the the documents they sourced actually correspond with my dates. Again Ark, Mithraism existed 5 centuries AFTER Christianity. This and the alleged parallel between it and Xtianity gives reason to suspect that Mithraism was either a copy from Christianity or a Mediterranean version of the Jesus accounts.
Dr. Ronald Nash, the author of many books including The Meaning of History and The Gospel and the Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from Pagan Thought? writes, "Which mystery gods actually experienced a resurrection from the dead? Certainly no early texts refer to any resurrection of Attis. Attempts to link the worship of Adonis to a resurrection are equally weak. Nor is the case for a resurrection of Osiris any stronger.
"Zeitgeist claims that Mithra, a mythological Persian deity, was dead for three days and then resurrected. I am no scholar on ancient Mithraism, but nowhere in any of the reading I've done on the topic has Mithra's death even been discussed, let alone Zeitgeist's story about three days in a grave and a resurrection. Edwin Yamauchi, a historian and author of the 578 page Persia and the Bible concurs. He says, 'We don't know anything about the death of Mithras'
"Allegations of an early Christian dependence on Mithraism have been rejected on many grounds. Mithraism had no concept of the death and resurrection of its god and no place for any concept of rebirth -- at least during its early stages...During the early stages of the cult, the notion of rebirth would have been foreign to its basic outlook..."
"...Moreover, Mithraism was basically a military cult. Therefore, one must be skeptical about suggestions that it appealed to nonmilitary people like the early Christians." - R. Nash, "Christianity and the Hellenistic World", Baker Books, Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1999, p. 492.
Ark, no offense but that's only a sample of the amount of documents that I have on "pre-Christian gods". I'll tell again, I've done the research, so why continue to show me these videos when the research they've done is incomplete?
Sidenote: there is no documentary evidence that Paul borrowed Christianity from other religions. THAT is just pure speculation.
Again, I HAVE done the research, and yet you're assuming that I have NOT. Like I've said before, I've researched EVERY POSSIBLE RESOURCE THAT I COULD FIND on the subject of "pre-Christian gods". You are CORRECT that many of them ASSERT that Christianity "hijacked" Mithraism. The problem is that while they ASSERT it, many of them don't give ONE SHRED of DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE to support it. I've personally found more documents and sources supporting that Mithraism hijacked Christianity.
Ark, as sincerely and respectfully as I can possibly tell you, the more evidence I give you in contrast to your claims, the more it comes across to me that all you care about is debunking me with any kind of source you can possibly throw at me. I don't think you are the least bit interested in hearing any counterpoint I present. I don't mean that to offend you in any way, but when I say that I've done the research, I MEAN IT.
Haha I've heard this story before. I have every Ravi Radio show of the last 3 years on my comp. I crack up every time I hear this lol. Exclusivity is meaningful because truth, by definition is exclusive. Brilliant.
Law of non-contradiction...slams The Secular Humanist cult on the floor..and its cosmological fantasy world of evolution..
doobersmanster 6 months ago in playlist ! RAVI Zacharias Lectures of Wisdom!
No, I have no claim to expertise. It just seems obvious that when someone like Ravi claims to have received truth from god he probably suffers from NPD at best, or is crazy as a bedbug at worse. LOL.
JGL53 1 year ago
@JGL53 Obvious how? What makes you assume that he definitely has nothing divine to back him up? Seriously, explain to me what makes it so obvious, because he certainly doesn't seem senile or insane to me. In fact, I'll stick my neck out for him and say I've never seen someone argue for the Christian worldview as well as he does.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
Jesus also said: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." In other words, most of us are screwed. Isn't that special?
Ravi is fun to listen to though.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey Well...his point is that most people will repeatedly walk right by the narrow gate because it seems so much less powerful, so much less significant, because it claims that there is a difference between right and wrong. But, in the end, they'll either turn back in pain because something hurt them, or they'll just stay there and die in pain. It's all our choice is his point. Most will be stubborn and refuse to turn back, and as a result will only be hurt again. Its a neverending cycle.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@AnnRKey And technically, he didn't say that "most of us are screwed." He jus said that most of us will CHOOSE to be screwed. But, thanks to Jesus himself, people can turn away from that and still take the narrow gate. Before Christ, that wasn't an option; if you were marked a sinner, you were a sinner. See, it's entirely up to us; God wants to help us back through the narrw gate and beyond, but most people would rather stay in the world of ugliness that they know.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana You aren't getting it. Most of us ARE screwed. If it weren't so, the Bible would be wrong, which it is, but the point is that every moment Jesus waits there are many more innocent babies born that will inevitably take the wide gate. It is written. And none of us chose to be born. I am rejecting the alleged narrow gate because the story makes no sense. If it made sense, I wouldn't reject it. I can't help how my brain works.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey Once again, you say "inevitable" like it's already been decided for them. You're not taking into consideration that people have free will. Like I said before, the world we live in is a few points from being directly controlled by Satan. Otherwise, people would be a whole lot happier. But, because Satan is so freaking clever, he beats people down in as many ways as he can until they're ocnvinced there's no hope. It's all a very sick game he plays with us. Only God can help us there.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana ...on a side note, thanks for not being rude in your replies. I really do hate when people start throwing downright obscene comments; it breaks very single rule of debate out there. I really do appreciate people who are calm enough to bite back the urge to be rude.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana Did we have free will to choose whether or not we would be born into this f'ed up world? There is no Satan. And even if there were, why would God allow It to deceive us? Why did the God of the Bible allow Satan into the Garden of Eden? The God of the Bible is a dick. Convince me I'm wrong.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey Dude, how can you have free will when you don't even exist? That point doesn't make any sense; it's like an artist trying to ask what his painting wants to be before he's even made it. It doesn't work that way. And why did God allow Satan into the Garden? Refer back to what I said earlier; he let him through because Satan was going to test how much Adam and Eve really wanted to stay with him. When they turned away from him, he got his answer.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana Dude, EXACTLY! We didn't have a choice to be born. Now, according to the Bible, most of us are screwed because of a decision made by complete strangers.
I see, so God is testing us with a being far more crafty than his other creations. What a dick! Moreover, God knew we would "fall". He knew we were imperfect. Because he made us that way.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey As for why god lets us be tricked...well, why are you letting yourself get tricked? I'm sorry if that sounds downright offensive, but the simple fact is that you're CHOOSING to believe something else. God gave us that right; that's why everything is so f*cked up right now. If he forced his existence into our heads, he'd be taking away our free will, and God wants us to love him completely of our own choice. So why are people deceived so easily? Because they don't let God talk to them.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana I am not the one being tricked, it's you that is being tricked. I am not the one choosing to believe something without evidence. Right again, it's God's fault we are in these dire straights. Cut and dried, three truckloads. If God want's me to love "Him", "He" should do something...anything. God can talk to me anytime "He" wants.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey Tricked! God bless you, you clearly know everything. The ONLY reason I believe in Christianity is because every alternative I've seen is full of freaking plotholes. Evolution can't explain irreducible complexity, other religions contradict themselves over and over or refuse to answer tough questions. I knwo there's no point in saying "trust me," but if you'd actually set aside a time to say, "God, just say something!" and actually mean it, something's gonna happen.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana I know what I know. Talk about plotholes, how about your missing in action Jesus? Some friend. "Saves" us and then leaves. How sorry is that? Irreducible complexity is a joke. Its been shown in court. Christianity can't answer why there needs to be a blood sacrifice. Or why the aforementioned departure of Jesus and why is he waiting so long? Way past asking God to say something. It's an ongoing request, anytime God wants to talk, I am listening.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey It's very funny when you think about it; God is perfectly capable of making us do the right thing, and even though people think that would make us happier, God is so convinced that making us mental slaves would backfire, that he refuses to intrude upon our free will. It's the one barrier the Almighty God will not cross - not that he can't, he just won't.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana Hilarious. How about God simply putting this alleged Satan in his place like God is ostensibly going to do at some point in time anyway. What's God waiting for? Shit has backfired anyway, at least if we were mental slaves, we wouldn't be facing destruction. Yeah, he doesn't intrude when some twisted mofo wants to do harm to others that are simply minding their own business. Real swell of God to stand idly by.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey Wow. You're really determined not to listen. If you'd listen, you'd hear something. That's all I can really say at this point. Why doesn't God put Satan in his place now? Well. If he did, he'd have to reverse everything that the devil's done, and that would mean sucking the evil out of everything. That he won't do without permission; go whine to the devil if you have a problem with the Holocaust and the other s***, it was his idea after all.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana This whole project is God's making! Explain this: "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, TO KEEP HIM FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS ANYMORE until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time." Set free?!
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey ...oh, also, as Ravi himself pointed out in the past, asking why God didn't do things another way is invoking the ability to choose, which you clearly want to have, or you wouldn't have brought it up. The simple fact is not that we're truly looking for change, or wanting things to be better. Yes, that's there, of course, but we want to be able to decide for ourselves above all other matters. THAT is why God refuses to intervene! He gave us that free will for a reason, apparently.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana So, if I see someone assaulting an old lady, I shouldn't intervene since that would stifle free will. Am I following correctly?
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey *sigh, shakes head...* No, because the old lady will probably want you to help her if she sees you. Bad comparison.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
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@Cierrakahana Don't you sigh and shake your head at me! Its a perfectly good comparison. Let's put it this way, if I am hiding (like God is) and I see someone assaulting an old lady, I shouldn't intervene since that would stifle free will?
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey*sigh, shakes head...* you didn't even read my last reply.No, if the lady asked for help, it would be given...she may not neccesarily get an angel to tell the guy to back off, but she'd get something. God helps those who want to be helped; we just never see it because he has to work around the free will of the offenders. ie, he's subtle.Once again, I say, bad comparison.You're just playing word games at this point;don't do that unless you want me to as well...you know what? just PM me...
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana PM forthcoming, but first, *sigh, pounds head on desk...* I did read your last. You never said anything about the lady asking for help. And you are full of it. "we just never see it". Beauty. How about this: one way or another, God has a twisted sense of morality. If I saw an old lady getting beat, she wouldn't have to ask for my help. I would step in. Oh wait, what if the old lady was already beaten unconscious and couldn't ask for help. What would God do then? Word games my butt.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey God doesn't stand by; he waits. Peopl have been trained to think he's the source of their problems, so they block him out. It's all part of Satan's sick game. If people actually WANTED God to help him, he would! But, we don't want him to help, even if we say we do. We just want somebody to blame, and blame him we DO!
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana stand by: to stand ready; wait.
No, we have been trained to believe God blesses. What does the President say at the end of his speeches? But, the fact is: God is the source of our problems. This is God's science project. He is responsible...for everything. The sooner you can grasp that truism, the better.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey ...writing on these comment boards is taking too long...I'm going to PM you my answer.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@AnnRKey The sooner you can grasp that truism, the better? If things are as you claim, we are God's science project and he's the source of our problems, then what do you suggest we do to solve these problems?
blesstv 8 months ago
@blesstv The first step would be to stop believing in man-made gods. If there is a god, it can only be an abstraction to us. Don't worry about what this god thinks. Recognize that we are all innocent in the abstract and that we are all essentially programmed biological robots. We can't really do anything except what we do. DNA proves we are all equal and the Golden Rule is applicable. Freewill may be an illusion, but we can make choices.
AnnRKey 8 months ago
@AnnRKey why only an abstraction? further more i find it quite a task, to say that if God is so powerful to create all that is in existence, where then do we get this conclusion that we can against His wishes. It makes no sense. If a man wishes to rob a bank we bend over backwards to his whims, because he wields the only weapon, a gun. he has the power to take or stay his hand on ones life, how much more shall we not consider if there is a God. A claim such as yours does not follow principle.
deltaalphacharlie 7 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie I can only be an abstraction because there is no God interacting with humans. Never has been. Do you know God's wishes? If so, how? Are you suggesting God is like a bank robber holding a gun to our head? What claim of mine does not follow principle?
AnnRKey 7 months ago
@AnnRKey i merely give the example to show you in whom rests power do we not adhere to it If nothing more than a hunk of flesh has power over ones life how much more is it that a power unimaginable would be contended Further more I dont think God has wishes Frankly The universe is His playground so to speak. The claim that I am speaking about is the position of power Would you ever answer to a puppy? Or do as that puppy wished you to do in your own home? Yet one treats that puppy with affection
deltaalphacharlie 7 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie A puppy is a strange analogy. I would take take care of the puppy. Feed it, etc. What do you mean "answer to a puppy"?
AnnRKey 7 months ago
@AnnRKey in the end it seems more fantastic, because it frankly is a thought and and only a thought, or idea. But if in reality There truly is a God, how do you reconcile such power with mere mortals?
deltaalphacharlie 7 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie How do you know there truly is a God?
AnnRKey 7 months ago
@AnnRKey because attesting to whom Jesus Christ is, is writ in blood. If He is who He truly is and can do what Is said He can do then there is a God. If those that saw and bore witness to Him are accurate then there is a God. Furthermore, the brand new people are born of this faith, change that defies what the rest of the world says when people live lives of scum. Thirdly i have my own demons that i wrestle, and if there were no God i'm afraid of what would have become.
deltaalphacharlie 7 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie Jesus is not what the Gospels claim. So, now what? There may in fact be no God. There is no evidence of God. And if there is a God, it's not the God of Abraham, this much is certain.
AnnRKey 7 months ago
@AnnRKey Says who? The same folks that once said there was never a pontius pilate, the same ones who said there was no such thing as a Hittite, or the ones who said that romans never crucified people. What we hear and what we see count for nothing these days a piece of paper means more than a mans word, and that is a shame. its either hes a liar or he is telling the truth.
deltaalphacharlie 7 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie Says me. There is no need for a Savior.
AnnRKey 7 months ago
@AnnRKey furthermore it is laughable that you would say that about the God of Abraham, i expected you to say there is none period. He is in fact everything the gospels say, because it is written in blood. The testimony of those who witnessed what was done for them and to them, their own blood authenticates what was given them.
deltaalphacharlie 7 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie Written in blood? Whose blood? Where is this blood?
AnnRKey 7 months ago
@AnnRKey finally the God of Abraham. The principle of power which i spoke about earlier, it is satisfied with Him. If He is Power defined and there is nothing that He needs because essentially He created everything, then that principle of power is satisfied, He gives life because He chooses to not because He wants to but for His own sake. And it has nothing to do with the human beings value of life what so ever.
deltaalphacharlie 7 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie Gobbledegook and malarkey.
AnnRKey 7 months ago
@Cierrakahana thas the very first thing our kind did when we fell. blame.
deltaalphacharlie 7 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie There was no fall.
AnnRKey 7 months ago
@AnnRKey It's actually not all that complex. Satan hates us for some reason, not entirey sure I understand why. We don't need to see why to understand that he's an asshole, though. He wants to hurt us, and the best way to do that is to keep us away from our maker, because nothing that Satan makes is ever gonna be good enough to make us truly happy. trouble is, sometimes the plan backfires, and people who are hurt go to God because they're desperate, and find something very special there.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana Did I say it was complex? Indeed, it's not complex. The God of the Bible is a prankster. An absentee landlord letting the evilest of creatures roam around seeking whom It can devour.
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey Oh, don't worry. God has a VERY special plan for the evilest of creatures who go around and hurt his children; just check out Revelations. >:) In the meantime, though, he's letting it continue because he wants to have as many generations come to him as possible.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana Wow. If God wants the max amount of generations to come to him, then Jesus will never come back. Yet, it is written that he is coming back...soon. So, what about those that would have been born after he comes back? I guess sol on them, eh? At least there won't be any more entering the wide gate, praise Jesus.....
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@Cierrakahana I just realized you didn't answer my question. Should I take God's lead and not help the old lady because it would stifle free will?
AnnRKey 1 year ago
@AnnRKey Once again, I say you didn't read my last reply...*sigh...* you really are very stubborn. Stubborn as a mule...read my other reply then.
Cierrakahana 1 year ago
You're confusing polytheism with pantheism. Free-floating minds are unprovable and unscientific bat crap, regardless of one, many, or everything.
JGL53 1 year ago
Christinsanity is not exclusive bullcrap. Monotheism in general is bat crap crazy.
JGL53 1 year ago
@JGL53 I can tell from your response that you are an expert on religion!
beed56 1 year ago
Amazing video. Truth is really not relative, as our culture embraces. Truth excludes, just as Ravi said. God bless!
Sweet92Sue 2 years ago
God allows evil.
God allows children to get killed.
God allows people kill children.
God allows billions of people to get totured for all eternity.
He has the power to stop all of these things.
But he doesn´t.
God created a world in where most of it´s inhabitants would be tortured, yet he doesn´t do anything about it.
So how can one say that God is all good?
elevadon 2 years ago
elevadon...u think a 15 wives man saved his soul? had he stop all your challenges? the god that you know made the religion "an islam" < took all the letters from the word "animals" God cannot violate every individual rights to choose and to do what they wanted to to in their lifetime.
sutadebastos 2 years ago
"an islam" < took all the letters from the word "animals"
In english, that is.
That claim has no relevance to this topic whatsoever.
It's just a coincidence.
"An individuals rigth to choose"
So, to god, the rigth to choose is more important then the rigth to live?
because God sure hasn't stopped any murders in a while(or has intervered with the universe in any noticable way)
And even then, God could have made us less likely to kill.
just reduce the amount of hormones produced by...
elevadon 2 years ago
...negative stimuli.
i mean, he is the desinger of our brain, and he is infinitly intelligent, so he should be able to predict how it functions, rigth?
Every human being knows it's wrong to kill another human being(although you did refer to muslims as animals, racist)
so why not increase how "wrong" it feels to kill a person?
that way, people would just get along.
why did he make humans able to hate eachother, to start wars?
he didn't have to, but he did anyway.
why did he give...
elevadon 2 years ago
...people the ability to not worship him?
i mean, entire city's were being destroyed and there people made slaves just because God didn't make them worship him..
i mean, seriously, he fucked up pretty bad, didn't he?
elevadon 2 years ago
so? dog spelled backwards is god. does that mean my dog created the universe?
atheistnarutofan 2 years ago
@elevadon
Because he gave free will and He's not a dictator.
ceraline 2 years ago
How would not prommising to torture everyone who doesn't agree with him make him a dictator?
How would creating a world i wich people dont kill eachother make him a dictator?
elevadon 2 years ago
God did do something about all you list He did not fix the symptoms all of which you list he proviced the cure and withouth Cost to us and that is his Son to be crucified for you and me so all of this would be solved forever in a coming day....but you have to accept his cure and that is what he waits for
waderyu 2 years ago
God raped a married virgin, and had his son be killed in a horendous way, Therefore he doesnt have to torture us?
elevadon 2 years ago
I admire Ravi Zacharias, a master defender of Christianity.
Jestepher 2 years ago
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RobertBaral365 2 years ago
Great video
God bless
GodIsReal101 2 years ago
He verified the existence of christians. I can do that too.
Philos2006 2 years ago
Aislinnmomma: And one more argument: Why doesn`t Paul in his multiple letters to the christian communities, never mention any of those so called miracles. There is no better way to make a convert then to prove a miracle. But he didn`t. Why. Because there were NO MIRACLES > Period.
Philos2006 3 years ago
Philos2006:
Would you consider 'risen from the dead' (Rom 14:9, 1Cor 15:4 etc.) or 'ascended to heaven' (Eph 4:10) miracles?
'signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds' (2Cor 12:12), plus old testament miracles in his letters. Paul even writes that from more than 500 witnesses who have seen Christ alive after His death, the greater part is still alive (1Cor 15:6). Pretty dangerous claim if you ask me.
dekelt 2 years ago
Paul wrote to churches about church matters and inner dissension. How would miracles buttress his message?
Ajunpryde930 2 years ago
i love u jesus
feverclaws 3 years ago
You are comparing an oral culture with our mass communication culture, thats like comparing apples and oranges. There are 4 eyewitnesses in the Bible. Then there are the outside secular sources of historians of that era. 19 to be exact actually. Jospehus, Thallas...ect ect.
StandUpForISRAEL 3 years ago
No sir,"The evidence is stacked against u."
Telll me why this unique miracle worker, who did all these humanly impossible things, is only mentioned in a couple of sentences. Imagine this hapening in this day and age !!!! All history books would be full of it. It would be irrefutable proof of the truth. Yet this did not happen, because :there is only one reason: IT DIDN`T HAPPEN
Philos2006 3 years ago
Sorry, but the scribes and the romans didn't want Jesus to prevail. In the Talmud they say he did miracles by the power of the devil. Weren't too many reporters around back then either. Terribly insulting unintelligent argument sir. Better luck next time.
Aislinnmomma 3 years ago
One example of how to make simple things complicated, "Do I open the door or do I close it". The real question we all have to answer is "DO YOU BELIVE?"
It is seldom I hear such a marvellous speach coming from such a intelligent man. I would really enjoy meeting this person. Thank U for the brain stimulation Mr R. Zacharias
rlepola 3 years ago
I find it so odd that people claim Jesus never existed and yet think it makes sense that individuals who hated Christianity never claimed this, but actually verified his existence. I guess its a conspircacy,lol.
brad78ton 3 years ago
Brad78ton: Reasonable people accept only EVIDENCE. Tell me the names of those who hated chritianity and verified the existence of Christ . Thank you.
Philos2006 3 years ago
en[dot]wikipedia[dot]org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus
dekelt 2 years ago
dekelt:--Tacitus_on_Jesus -- Did you ever read what Tacitus wrote ? How does thatprove the salvation story ?
Philos2006 2 years ago
Philos2006:
My post 'Tacitus on Jesus' was a response to the post in which you asked for 'the names of those who hated chritianity and verified the existence of Christ'. It has nothing to do with salvation.
dekelt 2 years ago
Jesus is a myth, Read " The Pagan Christ" By theologian Tom Harpur. Peace !!
Philos2006 3 years ago
Hey dude, I read that book. Tom Harpur did poor research on outdated scholarship on mystery religions. He relied on Gerald Massey, and Higgins who came up with this copycat hypothesis which was debunked by historians a long time ago. In fact, the evidence is quite strong and I consider the evidence effectively refuted that Jesus was indeed a real historical figure.
clarkster28 3 years ago
Clarkster28: That`s just your opinion. Thanks.
Outside of the bible and christian publications, all the evidence you have for christ is a mere couple of sentences. Peace !!
Philos2006 3 years ago
Philos2006. There is a fine distinction between fact and opinion here. I don't think you understand the historical techniques historians use to extract truthful data out of documents (bible or outside the bible).There is a way historians extract things that are most likely truthful out of things that may be fiction. Also, outside the bible Jesus is mentioned by Tacitus, Josephus, Pliny the younger, Lucian, and etc. Anyways, Almost all professional historians (atheistic or not) would agree w/me.
clarkster28 3 years ago
Clakster28: Have a good look at those testimonies outside the bible ,sir. They mean vey little. Plinus talks about the christians,not about christ,if my memory is correct.Josephus has been tempered with.
As I said, all you have is mere couple of sentences. Peace !!
Philos2006 3 years ago
Josephus: Historians generally accept part of that passage as reliable. So historians accept Jesus being crucified by Pilate as evidence.
Tacitus: Is a pagan Historian that is evidently hostile in his testimony claiming that the new christian religion are criminals and thus describing "christ" as crucified under Pilate again. It describes Nero persecuting them as well.
Crucifixion: Historians know there were other messianic claimants.If they were executed the (cont).
clarkster28 3 years ago
Clarkster28: So you DO accept that that passage has been tempered with, to make it fit with vague prophecies. The question now is sir: If they falsified documents once in order to justify their belief, how many times did it happen before ? How many documents unfit to their belief did they destroy? etc etc.
Philos2006 3 years ago
(Part 1) I accept that the Josephus passage mentioning Jesus's being the messiah was partially forged. The other half of the passage saying he was crucified by pontius pilate and him having followers wasn't. They use embarrassment criteria, and proximity criteria to prove it is most likely authentic. Another josephus passage regarded as fully authentic mentions Jesus's brother James who was crucified. Tacitus's passage mentions Jesus crucifixion. Seems like evidence to me.
clarkster28 3 years ago
(Part 2) Also almost all historians (atheist or not) accept that Jesus was at least a real man that got crucified. There beliefs are another story outside there field. Other evidence include 7 letters of Paul mentioning Jesus lived, had a brother James, and got crucified. You undermine this because there are a few lines said about him in early ancient sources, but neglect to see that a lot of ancient figures people don't doubt only have a few things mentioned. The evidence is stacked against u.
clarkster28 3 years ago
The movement around that self-proclaimed messiah would end and they wouldn't be the messiah anymore. Therefore, there is no way early christians would have made up a crucified messiah (that is oxymoronic). The crucifixion as well is independently attested across the earliest copies of the gospels (that was written in hebrew, aramic, greek), Non-christians testimony by part of Josephus, and Tacitus.
Also, you using the copycat/pagan myths (that was debunked long long ago).
clarkster28 3 years ago
Thank U for your the book tip, I'll order and read it. Have U read "the fifth gospel" by Fida Hassan & Dahan Levis?
rlepola 3 years ago
RAmen
borderlinebuddhist 4 years ago
Amen!
CagedSongBird 4 years ago
s viewpoint that needs some thinking upon.
Grimli 4 years ago
Lord Krishna gita: (7.6) It is I who am the ritual, I the sacrifice, the offering to the ancestors, the healing herb, the transcendental chant... I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support, and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable om. I am also the Rig, the Sama, and the Yajur Vedas. I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend.
raj2007ca 4 years ago
What was the whole point of the video showing various hindu gods and goddesses. Hindus believe in one god but many manifestations(attributes). I still dont get it. Christ says worship thy father he is everything. 5000 years before in the gita Krishna says worship me I am everything.
raj2007ca 4 years ago
raj2007ca
Christ says worship thy father he is everything. 5000 years before in the gita Krishna says worship me I am everything.
So what's your point.
voiceofreasoning 4 years ago
This is a great video. Dr Z gave this speach at in Utah. I have the whole thing on dvd.
2tires 4 years ago
Where did you buy it??
Calbenmike 4 years ago
this has completely passed me by .
Either Jesus exists or he didn't ,
there are doubts either way .
We know he personally never left any letters or essays to help us .
ark1588 4 years ago
Ark1588 Jesus had writers give an account of his work, life, sayings etc. The writers are John, Mathew, Luke, Mark, and they wrote the gospels that came to be accepted as part of the New Testament, or canonical.
djemil5 4 years ago
diemil5
tha NT was compiled many years after the 'death' of JC. the writers are unknown .
ark1588 4 years ago
I got news for you. The historicity of Jesus Christ is accepted by the vast majority of historions. They also accept his crucifixion and regard any claims against him as irrefuted. Secular world history doesn't even deny Jesus Christ existence. Any site arguing against his existence are biased sites with an atheistic or freethinking agenda.
clarkster28 3 years ago
Historions generally accept the empty tomb's existence as well. The only question is "was he ressurrected?"
clarkster28 3 years ago
i dont know of any Jewish historians who agree with you .
why would freethinkers or secular historians do that ,there is no logic to that activity .
ark1588 3 years ago
Um actually if you look on any encyclopedia (that doesn't have a religious or atheistic agenda like Britannica) you'll see that Horus wasn't born of a virgin mother,and all the others are claims are false. Those are false claims. Jesus and his crucifixation is a true historical fact. Most historions (yes even secular) do not reject his existence. So your going up against any reputable historion there is. This doesn't prove he's god either but his existence.
clarkster28 3 years ago
Earl Doherty is a reputable scholar in this area,look him if you have the time .
Unlike Ravi and his family business ,i doubt if it will make him rich .
ark1588 3 years ago
looked up on earl doherty(jesus puzzle). Yep, there will always be your christ-myth theories but they are/still is considered refuted by most historions. TRUST ME.
clarkster28 3 years ago
he is an independant unbiased scholar .
you cannot trust historians who rely on the Jesus business for their living .
ark1588 3 years ago
Look this is based on a consensus of all historions (Secular and non secular). Yes you have your secular ones for the ahistoricity but a lot are for the historicity. Most historions (The whole population of them) are unanimous that Jesus Christ was a real person who existed. Also, he is a humanist (which tells me he possibly has an atheistic or natural agenda). Still at this present time claims against his existence is effectively refuted.
clarkster28 3 years ago
if you have read his book and have the same views that is fair enough ,personally, i think
it raises problems .
ark1588 3 years ago
the virgin birth is in doubt, but there are apparently a number of similarities between Horus and Jesus .
ark1588 3 years ago
Name all the similarities please.
clarkster28 3 years ago
just googol jesus horus ,there are several
ark1588 3 years ago
Ok I did. Horus wasn't born a virgin (he was miraculously concieved and was married. virgin means pure or immaculate), he didn't walk on water (he fell in the water), Never taught at a temple at age 30 nor was baptized, Didn't have 12 disciples Horus had 4, never crucified, and etc. Lots of false claims or attempts to try put parallels together.
clarkster28 3 years ago
have you found any proper claims ?
ark1588 3 years ago
Look on any free encyclopedia online on "Jesus Christ" and you will see the name "Earl Doherty" under Jesus myth. Also, you will see "most" historions accept the existence of Jesus. Look up wikepedia or "free encyclopedia". It's in there
clarkster28 3 years ago
Look up also on the Horus, Orisis Gods and you will see none of them have 12 disciples, crucified, and etc. Its cool you and I have different views but dude these parallels are bad evidence and false claims.
clarkster28 3 years ago
a bit of egyptology for you :-
touregypt(dot)net/literature.htm
enjoy!
ark1588 3 years ago
Icke is making the point ,that our ruling bloodlines have used religion as a tool to keep order, and enable them to pursue their
agendas .
it has a ring of truth .
ark1588 3 years ago
a short video indicating origins of religion .
?v=ZoK_JaWJeBE&feature=related
ark1588 3 years ago
Look up Gary Habermas here on youtube and listen to his debates on the "parallels" between Christianity and pagan religions. You'll see that the evidence for the pagan rising gods is far more lacking than the documentary support for that of Christianity.
BassP86 3 years ago
have a look at the film
"the god who wasn't there"
you may find it disturbing .
ark1588 3 years ago
Saw the video. No offense, but I've done as much research on these other religions and the claims they've made, as I possibly could find. With all due respect, the evidence I've found is in complete contrast to the ignorant claims these videos make. Ex: Mithraism lasted 500 years AFTER Christ, but only came into existence 100 before Christ, thus giving more reason to suspect that Mithraism is a copy off of Christianty, not the other way around.
BassP86 3 years ago
Also, the earliest documents that support Mithraism are no earlier than 3 or 4 Century A.D. and scholars have not found any evidence of Mithra being buried or dying for that matter. The one "pre-Christian" god that has the clearest data that he was resurrected is Dionysis. However, that resurrection has only been found to be attested in post-Christian sources, centuries after Christ. Trust me Ark, I've done the research. These videos give very poor evidence about the casual links.
BassP86 3 years ago
Again, you need to look at the research of individuals such as Gary Habermas if you wish to continue debating this material. You'll find that the evidence is completely different from what these videos state.
BassP86 3 years ago
?v=kMRuUynC9i4
an academic on mithra.
not a nice picture of early xtianity
ark1588 3 years ago
Actually Ark, this video proves my point even further, not discredit it. No have been no documents found that support Mithras' death. The dates on the the documents they sourced actually correspond with my dates. Again Ark, Mithraism existed 5 centuries AFTER Christianity. This and the alleged parallel between it and Xtianity gives reason to suspect that Mithraism was either a copy from Christianity or a Mediterranean version of the Jesus accounts.
BassP86 3 years ago
Dr. Ronald Nash, the author of many books including The Meaning of History and The Gospel and the Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from Pagan Thought? writes, "Which mystery gods actually experienced a resurrection from the dead? Certainly no early texts refer to any resurrection of Attis. Attempts to link the worship of Adonis to a resurrection are equally weak. Nor is the case for a resurrection of Osiris any stronger.
BassP86 3 years ago
"Zeitgeist claims that Mithra, a mythological Persian deity, was dead for three days and then resurrected. I am no scholar on ancient Mithraism, but nowhere in any of the reading I've done on the topic has Mithra's death even been discussed, let alone Zeitgeist's story about three days in a grave and a resurrection. Edwin Yamauchi, a historian and author of the 578 page Persia and the Bible concurs. He says, 'We don't know anything about the death of Mithras'
BassP86 3 years ago
"Allegations of an early Christian dependence on Mithraism have been rejected on many grounds. Mithraism had no concept of the death and resurrection of its god and no place for any concept of rebirth -- at least during its early stages...During the early stages of the cult, the notion of rebirth would have been foreign to its basic outlook..."
BassP86 3 years ago
"...Moreover, Mithraism was basically a military cult. Therefore, one must be skeptical about suggestions that it appealed to nonmilitary people like the early Christians." - R. Nash, "Christianity and the Hellenistic World", Baker Books, Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1999, p. 492.
BassP86 3 years ago
Ark, no offense but that's only a sample of the amount of documents that I have on "pre-Christian gods". I'll tell again, I've done the research, so why continue to show me these videos when the research they've done is incomplete?
Sidenote: there is no documentary evidence that Paul borrowed Christianity from other religions. THAT is just pure speculation.
BassP86 3 years ago
ok
type mithras into googol
i got 1,600,000 entries .
many assert xtianity 'hijacked' mithras procedures , and persecuted its' followers
ark1588 3 years ago
Again, I HAVE done the research, and yet you're assuming that I have NOT. Like I've said before, I've researched EVERY POSSIBLE RESOURCE THAT I COULD FIND on the subject of "pre-Christian gods". You are CORRECT that many of them ASSERT that Christianity "hijacked" Mithraism. The problem is that while they ASSERT it, many of them don't give ONE SHRED of DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE to support it. I've personally found more documents and sources supporting that Mithraism hijacked Christianity.
BassP86 3 years ago
Ark, as sincerely and respectfully as I can possibly tell you, the more evidence I give you in contrast to your claims, the more it comes across to me that all you care about is debunking me with any kind of source you can possibly throw at me. I don't think you are the least bit interested in hearing any counterpoint I present. I don't mean that to offend you in any way, but when I say that I've done the research, I MEAN IT.
BassP86 3 years ago
my intention is not to debunk ,merely to raise doubts .
i guess you are confident in your situation and that's your good fortune .
cheers
ark1588 3 years ago
Haha I've heard this story before. I have every Ravi Radio show of the last 3 years on my comp. I crack up every time I hear this lol. Exclusivity is meaningful because truth, by definition is exclusive. Brilliant.
Veritas48 4 years ago
where did you get them? I would love to hear more from him.
LisaaaWeesaaa 4 years ago