4th Edition Design Philosophy

[InformationPollution]

4th edition has extremely fun elements.

That said, you lose so fucking much. Level 30 characters can kill gods in combat, but non-combat wise they have about as much power to alter their world as any peasant.

[anotherelvis]

A players handbook a year?

[snakeboy171]

4th edition Design Philosophy

-SUCK

-Be the worst AD&D version yet

-Eat money

[Theycallmetomu]

I respectfully disagree.

Though every edition has its ups and downs, and excels in certain areas.

[bce5150]

lolz @ the wizard being wow-like

[w007]

yah, it's not like they have cooldowns or anything :p

[Kergillian]

I have to disagree. I understand where you are coming from with #1, but with multiclassing and feat selection, I don't see it as limiting. I too prefer a point based system, but I have yet to see a point based system that cannot be broken or munchkined. Though not 100% successful, d20 tries to maintain character balance as character's progress.

As for complaint #2, I don't see your point at all, so I'm not really sure what your complaint is.

[Dreadon1]

why is everything new always compared to WOW. come on, please just say what you dont like about somthing and not say it is WOW so it must be bad.

Also just because they add or leave out a race or class does not ruin the game. Every home brew game has their own specail additions.

[ViridDruid]

Whats worse is that Warcraft designers based a crapload of their ideas off of D&D to BEGIN WITH. It's VERY ignorant to compare D&D to WoW when one can legitimately say D&D is one of the primary reasons WoW even exists.

[infernalistgamer]

The reason people keep comparing it to WoW, is because, oh, orbs/wands/staves (as class gear) and cloth armor for wizards, tons of new abilities with what are basically cooldown (1/encounter), and a general leaving behind of Vancian magic, which is what separates D&D from most other fantasy settings.

[ViridDruid]

It is NOTHING like Wow. Seriously, these comparisons are getting old and are just downright ignorant.

[infernalistgamer]

The reason people keep comparing it to WoW, is because, oh, orbs/wands/staves (as class gear) and cloth armor for wizards, tons of new abilities with what are basically cooldown (1/encounter), and a general leaving behind of Vancian magic, which is what separates D&D from most other fantasy settings.

[ViridDruid]

Didn't play much D&D back during 1st or 2nd edition did ya? And 1/encounter abilities already existed pre 4th edition and even pre 3rd edition. Their just now classified as "1/encounter".

The magic system is still the same as well. If any of the whiners had bothered to download the character sheets from the experience on the main d&d website, they'd notice that the magic system is still damn similar to older versions, and quite unlike wow; it's just streamlined now for easier pickup of spells.

[infernalistgamer]

Actually, I have every 3.0/3.5 printed, and have been playing since AD&D2nd, pre-Player's Option. Those 1/encounter abilities also still had a limited number of uses per day, not now. Furthermore, even discounting these new wizards, which I don't really mind, despite their WoW-ness, are rogues and fighters now picking up 1/encounter and 1/day abilities as well as at-will(which feats used to simulate). The fact is, D&D -has- learned from WoW a great deal. I don't autoconsider it a bad thing

[ViridDruid]

You haven't looked at the 4.0 pre-made character sheets have you? Because you continue to say the wizard is very wow-like when their really not. Their arcane power source makes it so the only difference between regular wizard spells now and wizard spells during 4th is that their at-will powers instead of regular spells. But the progression is still there, and although you do have spells that are per encounter and per day, their added spells besides your regular repertoire.

[infernalistgamer]

Which is exactly the point, Virid. "At will." Vancian magic is not at will. It is, read spellbook, grab an infinitely complex magical formula in your head, storing -a single use- of a spell, and releasing it into the world, and out of your head as well. Load and fire. Like a rocket out of a launcher. Now, granted, the 1/day spells still use a spellbook. But the rest of the things are NOT Vancian, and in fact each has a counterpart in WoW. Play it, you'll see. I love both, and can see it.

[infernalistgamer]

Furthermore, yes, I have all six sheets, and have had them since they popped up on the WotC website. And again, I'm not disparaging it by saying they've learned from WoW. I love WoW, I love D&D, and I love D&D wizards, and WoW mages. And one thing I love about my WoW mage is that I can take a breather for 5 minutes(or less), and my mana's full, and my spells are all ready to go. Now a D&D wizard can do the same. That's new, and it's -like WoW-. Please stop assuming I'm ignorant, it's rude.

[ViridDruid]

Um... you seem to have misread the new wizard information. Only cantrips come directly from the wizard and not a spell book, same as read magic did for 3.5 wizards. I.e. you still need a spell book for most spells. Now you also need an implement for specific spells that aren't cantrips (and i'm not entirely sure yet but I think you may need to prepare these spells as well and they require an implement because their more powerful in general).

[ViridDruid]

And again, you STILL need to prepare this stuff, unlike wow magic. If you lose your spell book, and you've used your daily spells already your daily spells are GONE. If you lose your wand (or orb/stave) or it gets destroyed , boom, your implement spells are GONE (and again, not sure on the spell book with the implement spells either). Last I checked, that's all QUITE vancian.

[ViridDruid]

Now you simply just have a few more non-spell book required spells (i.e. the cantrips) than just read magic, probably due to the lack of a sorcerer in the phb. This is simply so that wizards aren't useless once they use up all of their spell book spells (and their not in a position to rest). Thats it though. Everything else is fire and forget.

[infernalistgamer]

Virid, I'd love to have this conversation/argument in a faster medium. IM me at infernalistgamer on Yahoo Messenger. Sound good?

[ViridDruid]

I don't use yahoo. Ironically, I find yahoo eats too much bandwidth and slows me down too much, :P. Have any other messenger's?

[SamyueruHikage]

You actually only need to prepare your daily spells. It works like this: Whenever you gain enough levels to get a new daily power, your Wizard class ability let's you pick 2 instead, then at the start of each day, you pick 1 of those to prepare, but you have all your encounter and at-will powers. Cantrips are something seperate again, though they still come from the wizard class, they don't count as attacks, so you can cast them through invisibility and not be seen etc.

[stilanas]

World of Dungeons and Dragoncraft

[OsmerDevere]

From what my friends and I have seen, 4th edition won't get a lot of the gamers that have been playing for a long time. Especially with the chances to core aspects of the game like races and classes getting changed and left out. Elves are as tall or taller than humans? c'mon, this isn't WoW! I like some changes, but others are too drastic, and weren't needed.

[WizardJim]

I'm still skeptical, the d20 system is just too damn restrictive. Even if they overhauled it to the core it's still a broken system.

[Kergillian]

I really have to strongly disagree.

I admit that the d20 system isn't for everyone, but it isn't a broken system. Not by a long shot. I've been gaming for close to thirty years and I've played many, many different systems. d20 really is one of the best. My only gripe with d20 is the excessive amount of prep time needed to DM.

[WizardJim]

Two things have always bugged me about d20;

1. Character creation is so damn linear, level-based character creation limits you so much, I much prefer point-based systems.

2. The numbers have a tendancy to get a bit exaggerated around 10th level, after that characters become pretty much incompetent whencarrying out any action they haven't deliberately specialised in during previous levels.

Just my thoughts on the matter :-)

[ryukenangel]

How do you figure it is a broken system? This overhaul looks really great.

[WizardJim]

Two things have always bugged me about d20;

1. Character creation is so damn linear, level-based character creation limits you so much, I much prefer point-based systems.

2. The numbers have a tendancy to get a bit exaggerated around 10th level, after that characters become pretty much incompetent whencarrying out any action they haven't deliberately specialised in during previous levels.

Just my thoughts on the matter :-)

[Stormhead0912]

Its quite difficult to hear the speech due to the relatively low volume of him (and the kid talking in the background).

[jason619650]

ok?? first view and comment