DEBATE: Is the God of Islam True or False? Shabir Ally vs. Robert Morey

[IamMuhammad]

Didn't they have good cameras in 2005 ?! Or when was that ?

[saladinpublishing]

"I know some Muslims that believe in the death of Christ" - Sorry but they are not Muslims. The Qur'an is clear - THEY DID NOT KILL HIM THEY DID NOT CRUCIFY HIM. Thus, they are not Muslims

[EchadinYah]

And by the way..you'd be surprised how many Jews are beginning to accept Jesus as their Messiah..I'm also acquainted with some Muslims that believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ..They also believe Issac was the sacrificial son and that Muhammad was not in any way a descendant of Ishmael..they claim that the Qur'an teaches this..I may be an anomaly, but it's no new idea..again Jesus was a Jew..and His followers were Jews...

[EchadinYah]

Exaggerated and extreme claims? Christians did not invent anything..we have manuscripts that date to the 1st century, which contains the same message we have now..It is well known that the First century Christians believed in Jesus' deity..Muslims claim the bible was corrupt..yet they have no evidence for this..Should I believe in a book, that came 600 years after the Gospels, and 3 to 4000 years after the Torah? riiiight...

[tobygeral]

@EchadinYah If chronology is a deterrent to you believing in the Qur'an, why should Jews believe in the Gospels which came hundreds of years after the Torah? That is your own logic and reasoning used against you.

If the Bible wasn't changed, how come Ethiopian Orthodox Christians, Greek Orthodox Christians, Catholic Christians, Protestant Christians, and JWs all have different Bibles? Someone obviously changed something.

[EchadinYah]

@tobygeral There's one thing you're failing to understand..The New Testament does not contradict the Torah..it supports it! The first followers of Jesus were JEWS. Jesus was a Jew. Christianity is not a whole new religion..it is the fulfillment of the Torah and the prophets..As a Jew I view the Torah-Prophets and the Gospel as 1 book..

[tobygeral]

@EchadinYah You are an anomaly among Jews then, because religious-observant, Conservative and Orthodox Jews do NOT view the Gospel and the Torah as "1 book". The last time I checked, Conservative and Orthodox Jews do NOT believe that Jesus was sent by God, let alone that He *was* God, they do not believe in a trinity of three persons, they do not believe the Messiah must suffer and die, and so on and so forth. Please, do not embarass yourself by contesting this point.

[EchadinYah]

@tobygeral and if you did your homework..as one should before speaking...these variations render only in God's name..Example..some would say "YHWH" some will use the typical "God"..some Jehovah, etc..you also need to understand the greek language..Example...there are more than one way in the greek to say "I love you"..and because of this reason the same message is being read in different forms. Despite the many translations the wholeness of the message is still there...

[tobygeral]

@EchadinYah Strange how you left out the word "ELOH" (the first word used refer to God in the entire Bible-- ELOH-im), but nevermind. There is a difference between a "translation" and a "version". There is one version of the Arabic Qur'an, but different translations in English. In the case of the Bible, however, THERE IS NOT ONE KOINE GREEK VERSION of the New Testament. There are 50 000 Greek manuscripts that disagree with each other.

[tobygeral]

@tobygeral So please understand this difference. If another Muslim was reading a Qur'an which omitted 7 surahs that are found in my Qur'an, that would be a different VERSION of the Qur'an. But that is not the case. It is however the case with the Bible. The various canons of the Bible that I mentioned have DIFFERENT BOOKS and different PASSAGES. Big difference.

[tobygeral]

@tobygeral The Protestants have 66 books in their Bible; the Catholics have 73 books. So either the Protestants changed the Bible by taking something out, or the Catholics changed the Bible by adding something in. Please don't tell me that the Bible being changed is a Muslim conspiracy theory.  It is mainstream biblical scholarship. Please read "Forged" and "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture" by Bart Ehrman. His books will provide you with an even larger reference list of scholars.

[EchadinYah]

@tobygeral it is definitely NOT a Muslim conspiracy my brother..and about Bart Ehrman...his claims have been refuted...look up Daniel B.Wallace PHD..A greek scholar..

[EchadinYah]

@tobygeral and if you have indeed read Bart Ehrman's book..you will note that NEVER did he say that the message of the Scriptures has changed..It varied by name and way of explanation.

[EchadinYah]

@tobygeral it is definitely not a muslim conspiracy..but do I believe there were errors with the early church? absolutely! The church is very anti-semetic..and it's roots are rooted in paganism..in no way shape or form does it represent the 1st century followers of Messiah...If you're gonna claim that every manuscript has a different story..then we should just stop..because you're basing your view on a unrealistic and unsupportive assumption..

[EchadinYah]

@tobygeral now..there were certain agnostic Gospels that circulated during the 2nd century..But it's bibliography and character in the Gospel contradicts the Character and teaching of Jesus Christ. It's not even Jewish..and Jesus was well known for correlating His teachings to the Hebrew Torah and writings of the Prophets..it was no new teaching..

[EchadinYah]

@tobygeral Catholics contradict the Scriptures...The origin of Catholics is that of Paganism...The early manuscripts do not contain those additional books that Catholics hold..

[EchadinYah]

@tobygeral Why would it be strange? I do call the Creator by Elohyim..though that's a title..His name is YHWH or Yahuweh..

[EchadinYah]

@tobygeral "there are 50, 000 greek manuscripts that don't agree with each other"..do your homework and you will see that the core of the message is still in every single one of them...

[EchadinYah]

@tobygeral and by the way...there are a variety of translations of the Qur'an as well...is that for me to say that every translation contradicts each other? or assume that every translations has a different story or message? no! that would be completely ignorant for me to say...

[abdulhaqq1980]

This Shabir Ali dude is really cool... I hope we all can listen to him and learn something.

[Erap1muzik]

1 more thing read psalm 83..it list nations that are the enemies of God. that want to destroy his people...all of them today are muslim nations...and john 16: people will try to kill you (jews n christians) thinking that they're doing God a favor...now tell me who are the ones wanting to kill jews n christians by beheading them...the muslims. the antichrist we do the same he will behead the jews n christians... share this knowledge with all muslims.

[tobygeral]

@Erap1muzik Actually, the biggest curse that ever fell on Jews, even according to many Jews, is Christianity. This is because it was Christian nations (not Muslim nations) who most mistreated the Jews. See how the Jews were treated in the Ottomon empire and Islamic Spain versus how they were treated in Christian nations at that time.

[tobygeral]

@Erap1muzik And it is not Muslims who want to be-head Jews and Christians, it is vice-versa. This is why America attacked Iraq (Iraq did not attack America), America attacked Somalia (Somalia did not attack America), America attacked Afghanistan (Afghanistan did not attack America). Christian Americans have the blood of hundreds of thousands of Muslims on their hands from just the past 20 years alone. Do not be a hypocrite.

[Erap1muzik]

@tobygeral america is wicked they are not christians that attacked i bet you think bush was a christian...not everybody that says jesus christ is a christian that's what muslims have to understand.

[tobygeral]

@Erap1muzik Actually, it's very easy to understand. Christian Internet commandos like you can wash your hands of all the bloodshed that Christians perpetrate against Muslims and others with the simple and convenient disclaimer, "They are not true Christians". And you sir, I presume, are a "true Christian". I get it. I just think it's BS, that's all.

[Erap1muzik]

@tobygeral ok my final comment to you...you're likening me to evildoers that call themselves christians cause they fool muslims into believing they're christian...it's cause muslims don't understand christianity and true salvation. it will be like me likening you to bihism...psalm 83 is enough to get you thinking...like muhammad wanted all followers to say everytime they mention his name as a prayer cause muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation...peace be unto you.

[tobygeral]

@Erap1muzik Well, there must be something special about a man who has 1 billion people praying for him everyday, 1400 years after his death. No human being in history has had as many prayers said for him as the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Perhaps one day you will come to realize how special and blessed this man was.

Allahumma sali `ala Muhammad wa `ala Ale Muhammad!

[EchadinYah]

@tobygeral Well in that case Jesus has the upper hand on Muhammad....since Jesus came a more then 2000 years ago and till this day you have the world...including Muhammad talking about Him!

[tobygeral]

@EchadinYah That would make for a very strong argument against a Jew, not against a Muslim. As a Muslim, I totally acknowledge Jesus as a special brand of creation, a unique agent of God, and hence I am not surprised that God has exalted his status and memory in the minds of humankind. Unfortunately, the exaggerated and extreme claims made about him by Christians were, on the whole, untenable, and have actually led millions of people to *disbelieve* in Jesus by becoming agnostics and atheist

[Erap1muzik]

you keep missing the fact that i said (the elect) only... sure there's wicked jews and so called christians...jesus christ warned us about the antichrist...we have the holy spirit to discern. matt 24:

[tobygeral]

@Erap1muzik No, you keep missing my point. From a faith perspective, you can believe whatever you want. You can believe that you and only you are "the Elect" who will be raptured/saved. It doesn't matter. But from an objective, logical point of view-- you are more likely to fall into the trap of human-worship, since you already worship a human being instead of God (or rather, you believe that Jesus the human was also Jesus God the Son). Same difference.

[Erap1muzik]

please approve my warning comment cause it's true and i do it for the love of muslims.

[Erap1muzik]

NEWS FOR MUSLIMS...all muslims will worship the antichrist yes it's true his miracles will decieve all accept for Gods elect...(some jews and true christians )..i warn you now, you won't be able to buy or sell with out the mark of the beast so you will worship this man powered by satan.

[tobygeral]

@Erap1muzik Think about it this logically. Christians are expecting God (Jesus) to return again in the flesh. Muslims on the other hand are convinced that God cannot be a human being. So when the Anti-Christ, a human figure, claims divinity, who is more likely to worship him? The Christians who are expecting God to come back in the flesh, or Muslims who insist that God does not eat, sleep, drink, or go to the toilet?

Sorry, but Christians are going to be easy fodder for the Anti-Christ

[Erap1muzik]

@tobygeral you're twisting it...that's why i said (the elect) aren't gonna worship the antichrist...all others atheist muslims hindus ect are..

[Erap1muzik]

@tobygeral and remember muslims are also waiting for the return of christ and the mahdi. so we could see the pattern here.

[tobygeral]

@Erap1muzik Muslims are not expecting Christ or the Mahdi to declare themselves to be God. Anyone who declares himself to be God is automatically disqualified from being the Christ or the Mahdi. On the other hand, YOU are expecting "God in the flesh" to come back to earth and establish his kingdom... so when the Anti-Christ will claim to be "Christ God", it is *you* Christians who will fall for that trick, not Muslims. Use your head.

[julio14335]

People like Robert Moorey Sam Shamoum and David Wood do not deserve debate, in debates we need to learn from both sides the truth and something which will help us in further researce." but in thier cares they only propagates hate speeches.

[JAANISAR100]

Robert morry avoided all rebuttling answers of shabbir ally by declaring them irrellevant. Typical christian !! When they get cornered they always do this...even with ahmed deedat rahimullah alaih they used to behave the same

[TheFalconel]

in all honesty,this dr morry is a clown and he is not right in the head.saying things that are false. woe to all you who,say evil words and if Allah doesn't guide you. you are screwed

[yellowstarable]

This guy Morey just goes off rant and doesn't even answer questions properly. Look at him! he looks so full off hate....

[amuslima99]

cont. upon himself as no more than a worshipper of one God, a practising Jew and a member of the tribe of Judah. He never refers to himself as being part of a Trinity. The second in the godhead of a triune god. The God he speaks of is his God as well. And instructs the tribes of Israel to love this God with all their heart, all soul, all thy mind, and with all their strength. He didn't say to one day believe he died for the sins of man. BTW, the word Trinity isn't written anywhere in the Bible

[tobygeral]

@amuslima99 Salaam sister. The more they repeat their lies, the more we must repeat the Truth--- "Do not worship the sun or the moon, but worship Allah Who created them." (Qur'an 41:37)

[amuslima99]

@tobygeral Ameen ! Absolutely !

[disestablish]

In arabian history "Allah" was the pagan moon god. Muhammad just repackaged the gods into one "Allah". I wonder how many Muslims read about the true history of allah, mecca, etc.?? What was the first commandment? “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:2-3)

[tobygeral]

@disestablish Are you an idiot, or just blind? 

[amuslima99]

@disestablish Allah is not a moon god anymore than Jesus (peace be upon him) was the Son of God in a literal sense. Remember Pro. David (pbuh) and even Israel were also called "Son" and "firstborn" of God. What was the first commandment? According to the Bible, in Mark 12:29, Jesus (pbuh) answers the scribe's question by stating that the first commandment , Hear O Israel; the Lord OUR God is one Lord. This verse is known as the SHEMA. Further indicates that Jesus (pbuh) looked

[m3d2]

lool poor Morey

[tobygeral]

The Arab Coptic priest definitely clarified things for us! Salaam ALLAH ma`ak!

[kohitur]

Robert Morey devoted time to refute ALLAH as the appropriate name of Deity yet the Christian Arab during his prayer called Jesus as Ibn-ALLAH (Na'udhobILLAH) and closed with Salaam ALLAH ma'a kum. It looks like Morey's Christian Arab Paster has thrown Morey's rhetoric in garbage. Salaam is peace and Islam means to submit to ALLAH to attain peace.

Mr. Morey all this debate for nothing and you got butchered by your own Christian Pastor during prayers. What a joke you are.

[adamtestlove]

The title should be Robert MONKEY exposed LOL .. Great answers brother Shabir Jazak Allah Khair.

[Pyro7502]

Dr Morey is my favorite preacher. In my opinion he clearly won the debate. I hope God brings peace for the Muslim world in these hard times...Shalom

[MrMk2908]

dr morley admited the bible av 43 author

[exposemyfoes]

@tobygeral jazakallah bro,do u know where i can get hold of some copies of this debate and dr badawi's debate with robert morey

[tobygeral]

@exposemyfoes Just download them from my channel. That's the easiest thing. There's plenty of programs you can use to download YouTube videos.

[SuperRayaz]

No, Shabir was not debating Dr Morey as a person, but he was trying to prove that Morey needs to find a good basis for his quotations and for bashing the Quran. The purpose of a debate is to prove the facts... and that was what Shabir did.

[selviskk]

this debate is ridiculous

[alnarweeg92]

owned by shabir

[alnarweeg92]

haha i love how the editors of this film clipped the christians prayer out @ 0:00:57

[tobygeral]

@alnarweeg92 I think the event began with prayers from both groups, so they both got cut out... except a little bit of the Christian prayer/song.

[alnarweeg92]

@tobygeral

could be, but i didnt notice any dua in the film ..

[Rohilla313]

Lol @ the Christian priest in the end part. He apparently thinks Jesus is the son of the "moon god" and himself asks for the peace of the "moon god" upon all of us. *APPLAUSE*

[tobygeral]

@Rohilla313 Sometimes Allah brings the Truth to the mouths of the disbelievers (without them even realizing it!) Seriously, the old Arab priest wins the debate!

[Rohilla313]

All these childish comments about who "won" the debate and who got "creamed" prove absolutely nothing. Ultimately one has to watch and listen with an open mind and decide for oneself. I simply don't find "Dr" Morey's arguments convincing at all. The guy has been proved a liar and a fake by the Pakistani Christian community and this debate shows what a pseudo-intellectual quack he really is.

[christopheergin]

"ill take some water" AHAHAH poor shabir

[tobygeral]

@christopheergin Water as opposed to... beer?

[christopheergin]

@tobygeral what? excuse me i dont get it, i am not from the usa

[exposemyfoes]

@tobygeral did u hear that arab priest at the end lol destroy morey by saying ALLAH LOL

[SulemanMJ]

Same things that Dr James white said to Shabbir Ally in their Biola debate, and here, Ally himself is using them. This is one thing I don't like about my favorite Islamic debator

[SulemanMJ]

Methods Mr Ally? Isn't that what you and your followers object to when people like James White use it against you?

[answeringislam2011]

seems like Shabir Aly was not prepared for the topic and made Robert Morey as the topic !!

[tobygeral]

@answeringislam2011 It seems Morey was not prepared for the topic and made abcdefghij into the topics! (recall the bit about the Prophet's thigh, Morey's wife supposedly getting death threats, and on and on).

[answeringislam2011]

@tobygeral Being uploader, you couldnt notice what was really going on in the debate??

It is very unfortunate that Shabir Aly forget the topic and Robert and his books became the topic for him!!!

[tobygeral]

@answeringislam2011 Actually, Robert Morey, his credentials, and his books also became the topic for the Pakistani Christian community in Toronto that invited him to speak in the first place. They were disappointed by both his performance as well as what turned out to be a fake "degree" from a Bible seminary in Pakistan.

[shamounian]

@tobygeral Can you provide some substantiation for your claim that the Pakistani Christian community were disappointed by his performance when he was in Toronto?

[tobygeral]

@shamounian Much of it is based on what I've heard, so I wouldn't exactly swear by it. A friend in Toronto told me that a local Christian publication called "Awaz" or "Awaaz" had some type of harsh critique of Morey. There was also a very negative article about him in the "Pakistan Christian Post"; the editor of this latter publication in Canada is James Khokhar, who I think is related to Shadab Khokhar, one of the moderators of the debate. I'm more than open to correction though.

[shamounian]

@tobygeral Since you know Shadab Khokar, di you also know who the other moderator was?

[tobygeral]

@shamounian The other moderator was Sam Fanous, a Coptic Christian.

[shamounian]

@tobygeral is he still around? And if so do you have his contact information? Thanks.

[tobygeral]

@shamounian I did have his email address once but I don't know where it is now. Just search for his name on some of the Coptic Christian sites.

[shamounian]

@tobygeral You seem to be a very respectful Muslim, unlike the ones I have had the misfortune of dealing with. And for that I commend you.

[tobygeral]

@shamounian That's because you have a habit of using crude and vulgar language towards the Prophet of Islam. If you don't do that and you come in peace and with respect, you'll be met with peace and respect. James White and Dr. William Lane Craig are good examples to follow.

[shamounian]

@tobygeral It seems that I am going to end up regretting what I said about you since you are either lying at this point, or speaking in ignorance. I have already provided the emails proving that it is your ikhwaan who started up with the blasphemies and vulgar, filthy language. I even provided documentation that Muhammad himself, and his own companions, used filthy and vulgar language against their opponents. If you want the link to the article let me know.

[tobygeral]

@shamounian All I have to do is to see your comments on your channel profile and I can see that you're still using the same vulgar and crude language. 

[shamounian]

@tobygeral Now I am convinced that you are lying since if you were to carefully look at my comments page then you would again see that it is your ikhwaan who come there and start it with their filthy blasphemies. Here is an example - "AbuAsad786: So when you say god "in the flesh" you mean your foreskin god that was stolen in the 80s right? Aren't you supposed to eat it? After all your bible tells you to eat and drink your god."

[shamounian]

@tobygeral I should have known better than to think that a Muhammadan could be respectful or tell the truth. Thanks for proving me wrong.

[tobygeral]

@shamounian Your view of me matters very, very little to me. I'm not at all interested in persuading fanatical and hate-filled Christians like you that I am not a fanatical and hateful Muslim.

I did not see AbuAsad786's comments. I am going to message him now and tell him that it is unacceptable to talk this way about anyone's concept of God. Nonetheless, humility should cause you to ponder over why such Muslims always target you, as opposed to someone more respected like Dr. Craig, etc.

[shamounian]

@tobygeral First, that is the problem. You only saw what you wanted but didn't see all the Muslims on my page who blaspheme and mock my faith. Now to put things in their context, if your ikhwaan weren't fanatical and hate-filled Muslims who blaspheme my God and Christ then things would be quite different and there would be no need for me to give them a taste of their own medicine. Second, that would be very honorable of you to rebuke this Muslim, especially in light of Quran 6:108.

[tobygeral]

@shamounian You see, you've already started with me. I'm "lying" (as opposed to the possibility that I could be mistaken about something), I'm a "Muhammadan" (a term you know is offensive to Muslims), sarcastic comments about my "ikhwaan", etc. Sam, you have no manners, and even your fellow Christians have told you as much. I hope you continue doing what you're doing, because you will not win anyone's heart or mind by going around insulting their prophet(s).

[tobygeral]

@tobygeral One more thing, Sam, and then I hope to be done with this. This is sincere advice, so I hope you might consider it. If someone posted vulgarity about God or His Messenger in the comments section of one of my uploaded videos or on my channel profile, I would simply delete it. I would not respond to vulgarity with more vulgarity. It's very simple. This is the advice I have for you, as well as for my fellow Muslim ikhwaan.

[tobygeral]

Actually, the debate is solved by the Arab Christian priest in the last minute of the debate. Please watch it if you haven't already. May the peace of Allah be upon you.

[NJCHRISTIANMALE777]

WOW the quran is a fairytale with pagan roots .

[tobygeral]

@NJCHRISTIANMALE777 Wow-- you didn't watch the debate!

[shamounian]

@tobygeral Wow, yes he did, and so did I. Morey PWNED Ally in this debate. All Ally did was constantly change topics and attack the Bible, as opposed to directly answering Morey's objections which were raised in the debate. And it wasn't Morey who acted like a 10 year old, but Ally who kept whining like a little baby. And thank you for posting this debate since I now added it to my channel in my favorite list. :-)

[tobygeral]

@shamounian Are you Sam Shamoun by any chance? If you are, then you think that every debate ends with the Christian "wiping the floor" with the Muslim opponent, so we know how objective your assessment is. What objection of Morey's did Shabir ignore or avoid? It is quite the opposite. The same scholar who talks of "ilah" also speaks of "el", and "el" is part of the name of God in Hebrew. If "ilah" is damned, then so is "el-oh". Morey completely ignores this.

[shamounian]

@tobygeral Yes I am Sam Shamoun However, you don't know me enough, but only know what other Muslims tell you. I never say that every debate ends with Christians wiping the floor with the Muslims. In fact, I can honestly tell you that Shabir Ally, Jamal Badawi, Ahmad Deedat, and Zakir Naik have won the majority of their debates. The only time I think that Badawi and Shabir did bad was with Morey, Craig, and Labib Mikhail.

[shamounian]

@tobygeral Moreover, your comment that Morey ignored the connection with the name el and its implications tells me that you really didn't pay attention to the debate since he did address it. In fact, this again is confirmation of what Morey stated concerning Ally's straw man arguments. Even one of Shabir's quotes proved that Morey was right, since it confirmed that the Allah of the Meccans started out as a pagan deity which Muhammad then transformed into the one true God of all.

[Rohilla313]

@tobygeral Yes, interesting point there tobygeral. I suppose then, that when Jesus supposedly cried out "Elohi, Elohi, lema sabachthani?" on the cross he was crying out to a pagan moon god?

[suminvictus1]

Shabir Aly is the more passionate speaking, but he gets totally creamed on the argument. The quran, is made up of a collection of other ideas and stories, with not much literary uniqueness in the Quran. Therefore, its not from Allah, as it claims to be but is evidentially not, and so, has errors in it.

[InfiniteLightRC]

Alhamdulillah the truth of God's word the Quran, always shines forth.

[Nazam44]

Morey successfully acts like a 10-year old brat.