A terrible move by Obama, if we had to release the waterboarding info, that's one thing, detailing other very pc methods like cold temperatures, stress positions, etc so Alqaeda knows exactly what to expect when they're caught and can laugh in our faces, is complete stupidity. Big victory for the ACLU scum, dedicated since their creation to the destruction of the country. Why did we spell out for Alqaeda all the non-waterboarding interrogation methods too? Liberals still weak on natl defense
No attack since 9/11, waterboarding DOES work and there's nothing you assholes can do about it, there will be no proesecution for saving people's lives, if you want to defend terrorists' rights to plot attacks in secrecy continue to do so but you have no real power so you will never win.
The OUTER limits shouldn't be something that everyone doesn't know. We are supposed to be above the low lifes that do torture. People should know our OUTER limits is no Torture.
There is a slippery slope here. Ive already heard in the main stream media use of the word "terrorist" used almost interchangeably with "pirates", and, people of certain political beliefs as potential homegrown "terrorists". Baby steps is allz I'm sayin.
President sends fear throughout intelligence organizations for torture in the future? What the fuck else is he supposed to do? Torture breaks international law! Is there supposed to be no consequence? Without them, guess what they will continue to do? Torture motherfuckers.
The National Society of Architects & Engineers, not to mention many National and local Associations of Scientists, Physicists, & Scholars, all agree on one fact. The official 911 story is not only untrue, they in fact have all stated that it does not even fall into any realm of known scientific possibility. That's good enough for me.
Water boarding applied 183 times to the same person crosses the line to sadistic punishment. Imagine a guy trying to talk with a mouth full of water. Seems criminal and stupid on its face and shouldn't be justified.
Why is Obama covering for these junior Eichmann's while they continue to defend torture and their own clearly illegal acts? The debate isin't about definitions of torture or national security. It's about whether or not the U.S. will uphold the rule of law.
First of all, let's quit the Nazi references before the entire discussion becomes a mockery. Second, sadly, it's not as simple as upholding the rule of law. For every "interrogation technique" or "torture technique" or whatever, there were piles of memos from federal judges and attorneys arguing that they were legal. Unfortunately, there is plenty of debate about it.
So if I'm the President, and i want to rob a bank, all I have to do is to get someone from my Justice Dept. to write a memo saying that bank robbery is legal?
I understand what you're trying to say, but almost everyone in the legal community who doesn't have a political ax to grind will tell you that these memos are absurd on their face.
Well, that depends on what you're talking about. People of which legal community? What influence do American constitutional law professors have on interrogation techniques taking place in a foreign land on non-American "enemy combatants" (a category created legally) that don't belong to a state that signed the Geneva Conventions?
If people argue that these techniques betray our principles or undermine our standing in the world, I agree. If you go too far beyond that, it's just partisanship.
I'm pretty sure that signers of the Geneva Conventions (like the US) are obligated to follow them even when dealing with individuals who are not signers of the Geneva Conventions. Also, the legal validity of the whole "enemy combatant" statute is arguably unconstitutional, and was only drafted into law so that the Bush admin could commit illegal acts (going back to the bank robbery analogy).
As a signatory of the Geneva Conventions, the US is only bound to respect the rights of captured prisoners of war who had followed specific wartime protocols. That wouldn't apply in these cases.
And your analogy really doesn't make any sense for the very same reason. First, it assumes a law analogous to "robbery in the US" existed. Second, once something is lawful, it is by definition not illegal.
"As a signatory of the Geneva Conventions, the US is only bound to respect the rights of captured prisoners of war who had followed specific wartime protocols."
Like I said before, I'm almost 100% certain that that's a misconception. If you have proof to the contrary, I'd love to see it.
"it assumes a law analogous to "robbery in the US" existed"
I'm confused. Is bank robbery not illegal in the US. And is torture not illegal internationally?
Apparently ImperiusRex gets to define the parameters of this discussion. The Nazi reference was chosen purposefully to cut through bull---- such as "sadly, its not as simple as upholding the rule of law." Yes it is. Its that simple. Beware the voice, when confronted with moral certainty, that insists on complexity.
The Muslim terrorists should be doused in jet fuel, caught on fire and then thrown out of a 100 story building like the victims of 9/11, then justice will have truely been served
true but what about the American citizens who have been arrested and tortured, and held for years without legal council simply based on there race or religion?
What about them should they be tortured and "doused in jet fuel?"
Its easy to call for blood when its not your on being shed
Are you more likely to tell the truth when you are beaten and drowned within an inch of your life, or when you believe that the person asking you questions is your friend?
Put me in a box with insects and sleep deprivation, etc... and I'll tell you I wear women's panties and sing Boy George as loud as possible, if I believe it will make you stop.
Gatdaym idiots. Yoo, Addington, Cheney, Rove, Bush, etc.... never served, and never have been held accountable.
100% Correct. Tourture is one of the least productive interrogation techniques, it can often drain resources, when the interrogaters are sent on a wild goose chase.
They keep claiming the torture "worked". That's a flat out LIE. It has already been widely reported that most of the information gotten from torturing prisoners was bullshit, things they said just to avoid more torture. We followed their leads, arrested more people, and it's slowly come out that there was no truth to the "confessions" given under torture.
This is not surprising at all. It's happened throughout history. Even when McCain was tortured, he admits he told the Vietnamese lies. Duh!
You know who's getting a raw deal? That Lynndie England yahoo, and her fascist thug of a boyfriend.
Why are they shut out of this blanket immunity stuff? Because what, they were unskilled amateurs, not trained in the finer points of beating heads into concrete walls?
"Retribution" for war crimes is important, and not a thing for Rahm Emmanuel to reject because it's 'not what we need right now'.
I'm sure fessing up and ending the torture will be just DETRIMENTAL in the "war on terror"...since EVERYONE KNOWS we torture already, and people love having their citizens tortured without a trial!
I would really like to know, what EXACTLY did we learn when we tortured some prisoners? How was it more effective than non-torture interrogation? What "Jack Bower" situation actually happened? I assume, since there is no evidence, that such a situation did not happen and again, for lack of evidence, we must believe that these techniques really did NOT keep the US safer. How has this release made us "not safe"? So many obvious questions the GOP just does not have answers for, and never will.
Upon accepting The Oscar for Best Picture (Platoon) Oliver Stone said if America ever allows another Vietnam to happen then all the Patriots that died in Vietnam would have died for nothing for the country they love didn't learn anything from past error. You're off track USA, Patriots are dying for nothing.
Hear that folks? Its none of your business what is in these Top secret memos. Releasing the truth will harm national security. How can we call ourselves a democratically elected republic if the voters don't have access to the truth. Oh ya, I forgot we don't need the truth while we have these shilleaders from main stream media.
The CIA, MI-5 and the Mossad work in unison to commit crimes. They have been doing this for decades and people are so ignorant they cannot see it yet.
You're right on burn, I was thinking the same thing. The republicans didn't have a problem with the Valerie Plame leak but do have a problem releasing classified info that might expose field agents? What?
Why no "Meet the Press?" They had a brief but lively dicussion regarding the possiblility of a resurgence in the popularity of Sen. Leahy's proposal for a truth and reconcilliation commission.
Any schoolboy notion of psychological reprogramming works better (more effectively) than the most sophisticated - or cruel - torture technique. North Korea proved this beyond proof two generations ago.
A terrible move by Obama, if we had to release the waterboarding info, that's one thing, detailing other very pc methods like cold temperatures, stress positions, etc so Alqaeda knows exactly what to expect when they're caught and can laugh in our faces, is complete stupidity. Big victory for the ACLU scum, dedicated since their creation to the destruction of the country. Why did we spell out for Alqaeda all the non-waterboarding interrogation methods too? Liberals still weak on natl defense
RuflessRecords 2 years ago
No attack since 9/11, waterboarding DOES work and there's nothing you assholes can do about it, there will be no proesecution for saving people's lives, if you want to defend terrorists' rights to plot attacks in secrecy continue to do so but you have no real power so you will never win.
misterhowdy55 2 years ago
misterhowdy55
No comets haved struck earth since the invention of the telescope. Telescopes have worked.
Everyones got an asshole.
Who has been charged with "saving people,s lives"?
Define terrorist
take meds-restores "real power"
dlucas90 2 years ago
The OUTER limits shouldn't be something that everyone doesn't know. We are supposed to be above the low lifes that do torture. People should know our OUTER limits is no Torture.
siegristrm 2 years ago 2
Dems are LIARS, Dems are LIARS!
Torture is still going on. War is still going on, soldiers and civilians are still dying.
micahgee 2 years ago
The reason why the U.S. was never attacked again was because our enemies believed in Hope and Change through Obama.
PragaSong 2 years ago
There is a slippery slope here. Ive already heard in the main stream media use of the word "terrorist" used almost interchangeably with "pirates", and, people of certain political beliefs as potential homegrown "terrorists". Baby steps is allz I'm sayin.
dlucas90 2 years ago
Well said!
ImproveYourMagic 2 years ago
President sends fear throughout intelligence organizations for torture in the future? What the fuck else is he supposed to do? Torture breaks international law! Is there supposed to be no consequence? Without them, guess what they will continue to do? Torture motherfuckers.
GOP fails again.
HaloedG 2 years ago 5
GOP is pathetic.
micahgee 2 years ago
To move forward disclosed need to be made.
If they beveled it would affect their administration or our country they would not have released any info.
These folks are just pissed off they are being made look bad.
cobmojo 2 years ago
The use of torture and illegal detention was making the US less safe. It has been used as a recruiting tool by those who are waging this war.
It is not weak to stand firm on principles of law. Quite the opposite in fact.
I'm hoping the people at the very top of the last administration will eventually be held accountable for their crimes.
wmg111 2 years ago
So is Hayden morally evil, or just a sociopath?
fishhead06 2 years ago
This clip misses the point. Torture does not work. I would tell you that 'I killed J.F.K." to get that thumb screw off, or prevent being drowned.
dlucas90 2 years ago
It makes me sick to see all these people defend the terrorists, the same people that killed over 3000 innocent people on 9/11
misterhowdy55 2 years ago
Who's defending terrorists? In your view, does not torturing them = defending them?
fishhead06 2 years ago
It makes me sick that we have turned into Egypt/Syria/Iran/Saddamhussien Iraq.........
We are defending america as ruled by law and not by men.
U cant trust goverment, u allow them to this, they will abuse it...soon they will torture the ppl that disagree.
Do u understand that this go beyond terrorism?
justcallmesoso 2 years ago 3
There were no terrorists involved in 911 -
The National Society of Architects & Engineers, not to mention many National and local Associations of Scientists, Physicists, & Scholars, all agree on one fact. The official 911 story is not only untrue, they in fact have all stated that it does not even fall into any realm of known scientific possibility. That's good enough for me.
MathewsWire 2 years ago
Water boarding applied 183 times to the same person crosses the line to sadistic punishment. Imagine a guy trying to talk with a mouth full of water. Seems criminal and stupid on its face and shouldn't be justified.
33115566 2 years ago
Why is Obama covering for these junior Eichmann's while they continue to defend torture and their own clearly illegal acts? The debate isin't about definitions of torture or national security. It's about whether or not the U.S. will uphold the rule of law.
elfyboy 2 years ago
First of all, let's quit the Nazi references before the entire discussion becomes a mockery. Second, sadly, it's not as simple as upholding the rule of law. For every "interrogation technique" or "torture technique" or whatever, there were piles of memos from federal judges and attorneys arguing that they were legal. Unfortunately, there is plenty of debate about it.
ImperiusRex 2 years ago
So if I'm the President, and i want to rob a bank, all I have to do is to get someone from my Justice Dept. to write a memo saying that bank robbery is legal?
I understand what you're trying to say, but almost everyone in the legal community who doesn't have a political ax to grind will tell you that these memos are absurd on their face.
DarthMerlin 2 years ago 2
Well, that depends on what you're talking about. People of which legal community? What influence do American constitutional law professors have on interrogation techniques taking place in a foreign land on non-American "enemy combatants" (a category created legally) that don't belong to a state that signed the Geneva Conventions?
If people argue that these techniques betray our principles or undermine our standing in the world, I agree. If you go too far beyond that, it's just partisanship.
ImperiusRex 2 years ago
I'm pretty sure that signers of the Geneva Conventions (like the US) are obligated to follow them even when dealing with individuals who are not signers of the Geneva Conventions. Also, the legal validity of the whole "enemy combatant" statute is arguably unconstitutional, and was only drafted into law so that the Bush admin could commit illegal acts (going back to the bank robbery analogy).
DarthMerlin 2 years ago
As a signatory of the Geneva Conventions, the US is only bound to respect the rights of captured prisoners of war who had followed specific wartime protocols. That wouldn't apply in these cases.
And your analogy really doesn't make any sense for the very same reason. First, it assumes a law analogous to "robbery in the US" existed. Second, once something is lawful, it is by definition not illegal.
ImperiusRex 2 years ago
"As a signatory of the Geneva Conventions, the US is only bound to respect the rights of captured prisoners of war who had followed specific wartime protocols."
Like I said before, I'm almost 100% certain that that's a misconception. If you have proof to the contrary, I'd love to see it.
"it assumes a law analogous to "robbery in the US" existed"
I'm confused. Is bank robbery not illegal in the US. And is torture not illegal internationally?
DarthMerlin 2 years ago
Apparently ImperiusRex gets to define the parameters of this discussion. The Nazi reference was chosen purposefully to cut through bull---- such as "sadly, its not as simple as upholding the rule of law." Yes it is. Its that simple. Beware the voice, when confronted with moral certainty, that insists on complexity.
elfyboy 2 years ago
The Muslim terrorists should be doused in jet fuel, caught on fire and then thrown out of a 100 story building like the victims of 9/11, then justice will have truely been served
misterhowdy55 2 years ago
true but what about the American citizens who have been arrested and tortured, and held for years without legal council simply based on there race or religion?
What about them should they be tortured and "doused in jet fuel?"
Its easy to call for blood when its not your on being shed
3star2nr 2 years ago
Are you more likely to tell the truth when you are beaten and drowned within an inch of your life, or when you believe that the person asking you questions is your friend?
Put me in a box with insects and sleep deprivation, etc... and I'll tell you I wear women's panties and sing Boy George as loud as possible, if I believe it will make you stop.
Gatdaym idiots. Yoo, Addington, Cheney, Rove, Bush, etc.... never served, and never have been held accountable.
huskercane 2 years ago 2
100% Correct. Tourture is one of the least productive interrogation techniques, it can often drain resources, when the interrogaters are sent on a wild goose chase.
shenny100 2 years ago
Dear Republicans:
-We don't buy into your fear anymore.
-Thats one reason you lost so many seats in November.
-You're NOT in power anymore.
-I feel safer now than I did when you were in charge.
-Shut the fuck up.
WKaliberr 2 years ago
amen brother!
gholis 2 years ago
Plagiarism!
Why would you copy and paste someone else's comment verbatim and pass it off as your own WKaliberr? Weak.
MrMan428 2 years ago
Plagiarism!
Why would you copy and paste someone else's comment verbatim and pass it off as your own Mr.Man428? Weak.
WKaliberr 2 years ago
Obama is the best president eva.
WKaliberr 2 years ago
They keep claiming the torture "worked". That's a flat out LIE. It has already been widely reported that most of the information gotten from torturing prisoners was bullshit, things they said just to avoid more torture. We followed their leads, arrested more people, and it's slowly come out that there was no truth to the "confessions" given under torture.
This is not surprising at all. It's happened throughout history. Even when McCain was tortured, he admits he told the Vietnamese lies. Duh!
RealCaptainAmerica 2 years ago
You know who's getting a raw deal? That Lynndie England yahoo, and her fascist thug of a boyfriend.
Why are they shut out of this blanket immunity stuff? Because what, they were unskilled amateurs, not trained in the finer points of beating heads into concrete walls?
"Retribution" for war crimes is important, and not a thing for Rahm Emmanuel to reject because it's 'not what we need right now'.
terpis 2 years ago
I'm sure fessing up and ending the torture will be just DETRIMENTAL in the "war on terror"...since EVERYONE KNOWS we torture already, and people love having their citizens tortured without a trial!
andid 2 years ago
I would really like to know, what EXACTLY did we learn when we tortured some prisoners? How was it more effective than non-torture interrogation? What "Jack Bower" situation actually happened? I assume, since there is no evidence, that such a situation did not happen and again, for lack of evidence, we must believe that these techniques really did NOT keep the US safer. How has this release made us "not safe"? So many obvious questions the GOP just does not have answers for, and never will.
eros1057 2 years ago 2
Thank you Obama. Show who big brother is and what naughty things he does.
PersonalJesus348 2 years ago
Upon accepting The Oscar for Best Picture (Platoon) Oliver Stone said if America ever allows another Vietnam to happen then all the Patriots that died in Vietnam would have died for nothing for the country they love didn't learn anything from past error. You're off track USA, Patriots are dying for nothing.
boots920 2 years ago 2
"Believe me," says a former CIA director.
No.
SubmarinerAndroid 2 years ago 11
Hear that folks? Its none of your business what is in these Top secret memos. Releasing the truth will harm national security. How can we call ourselves a democratically elected republic if the voters don't have access to the truth. Oh ya, I forgot we don't need the truth while we have these shilleaders from main stream media.
dlucas90 2 years ago
Dear Republicans:
-We don't buy into your fear anymore.
-Thats one reason you lost so many seats in November.
-You're NOT in power anymore.
-I feel safer now than I did when you were in charge.
-Shut the fuck up.
zndprophet 2 years ago 14
The CIA, MI-5 and the Mossad work in unison to commit crimes. They have been doing this for decades and people are so ignorant they cannot see it yet.
iwillspyonyou 2 years ago 6
they were just following orders by the nazi er I mean US lawyers
marniespeaks 2 years ago 2
2 words: Valerie Plame
burntonion05 2 years ago 10
You're right on burn, I was thinking the same thing. The republicans didn't have a problem with the Valerie Plame leak but do have a problem releasing classified info that might expose field agents? What?
Pleblian 2 years ago 4
3:10 "the fact is that the use of these (interrogation) techniques made us safer"
uhmmmm what interrogation technique doesn't make a country safer? You eventually get the information out of them
robinvan1983 2 years ago
Why no "Meet the Press?" They had a brief but lively dicussion regarding the possiblility of a resurgence in the popularity of Sen. Leahy's proposal for a truth and reconcilliation commission.
discountBush 2 years ago 3
discountBush, Maybe TPM agrees with Obama that we need to "move forward."
I know I usually upset some people by disagreeing with Obama's policies, but I think I might agree with liberals here. We need prosecutions.
MooseOfReason 2 years ago
Any schoolboy notion of psychological reprogramming works better (more effectively) than the most sophisticated - or cruel - torture technique. North Korea proved this beyond proof two generations ago.
voyeurdug 2 years ago