~Hummmm, --does the world really need another jewZionist 'know it all' athiest; --this guy is totally imbued with voodoojoo-science, and the fatally subversive notion that jew-Communism/Capitalism has something of value to offer the world! However, looking at the sinister truth lurking behind their cloak of deception, --one invariable finds the primitive-minded self-serving Jew robber-baron masters of usury, -plotting yet another warmongering scheme by which to abuse their gullible hosts...!!!
@AryanKnight Your whole argument is an introspect of inherited bias developed by Hitler to scheme and paint the Jews as a scapegoat to the Germans. Or maybe it's just incoherent, ignorant, moronic racism... who knows?
The Lucifer Principle was really excellent but his grasp on evolution is shaky. He needs to reread Dawkins to understand the "if" - "then" chemical reaction concept for a better understanding of genetics. He's overly anthropomorphic because of it.
I wouldn't save my brother because I share his genes. I'd save him because I've known him my whole life and I can see the value in his life. If I found out my brother was adopted I'd still save his life over a stranger's.
Evolutionary explanations are best understood by looking at a trait - let's say love for a brother - and working backwards down through evolutionary time. Why did saving and loving one's brother become selected for so strongly to eventually become what it is in us humans? Looking back to the more primitive levels and forms of life there's clearly gene-kin selection among groups. Check out the book The Making Of The Fittest by Sean B Carroll. Hope I helped a little. It's confusing stuff at 1st.
Sorry... I have to say it's a little more complicated than purely genes. Environment and interaction within a species or group of individuals are all factors as well.
Yes friend, it is complicated. A combination of nature and nurture. Another good book recomendation on that very topic would be The Agile Gene by Matt Ridley. Environments and interactions all act on something and that's genes. And they interact to either survive or not.
"an evolutionary survival strategy to protect those closely related to you."
Some people hate their brothers and could care less if they died. Is that due to evolved predisposed psychology or sociological interaction? I would say the latter.
Definitely the latter, however your point does nothing to disprove the point that SuddenCatharsis made. It can be an evolutionary survival strategy that can be overridden given certain extreme emotions based on sociological interaction. You can naturally love your sister, but override that love with hatred if you find out she is a murderer, for example.
"It can be an evolutionary survival strategy that can be overridden given certain extreme emotions based on sociological interaction."
Okay, but I didn't get how that was the point he was making at all.
"You can naturally love your sister, but override that love with hatred if you find out she is a murderer, for example. "
I think love is something that is earned more than something that's natural (genetically encoded). I think it's earned through sociological interaction just like hatred.
BTW; if you found out that your brother was adopted he would still be your brother in your eyes...
"save him because I've known him my whole life and see the value in his life" Actually that happens with everyne you know since your birth, even if they are bad people or even criminals the fact that you really know him and had interacted with him/her make you save his life.
I think you didnt understood what i said; the way to identify who is your brother is for the time that you have spend with him; your genes cannot put an arrow over your brothers head and say: "Save this one!"
@ViejoIvan Uhm... you do understand that sociological interactions are unrelated to genetics, don't you? You said earlier, "the fact that you really know him and had interacted with him/her make you save his life." Not always true. Some people end up hating their brother/sister.Some people end up killing their brother/sister. Some people have even ended up fighting on opposite sides of a war from their brother/sister.But all this aside, what is your POINT (preferably summed up in one sentence)??
but it is complety against survival; and they dont have a moral coded, is hard writted in their genes.
Even in elephants, they take care of each other in the same herd, however, when one of them interacts with elephants of another herd the outcome is not that good.
My point? I already said it: Gennes cannot put an arrow over your brothers head and say "Hey save this one"; the way you identify your brother and relatives is based on the time that you had spend with them.
Okay, I get what you're saying now. No matter what you do, you are reacting to outside stimuli and how you react is partly due to the outside stimuli and partly due to where you are evolutionarily speaking. But all I'm saying is that within our own species, we are all genetically quite similar relative to other species, so it's more the social interactions that affect our behavior than our differences in genetics WITHIN our species.
@seanotube85 His comment is not about YOU, it's about the principle of saving those which are relative of your self. The reason you would save your brother is more complicated, which i think has alot to do with the tribal nature of life.
@googoo120 Whoever is relative to oneself is relative through social interactions in the world and how these shape the way you feel about others. This includes your brother, your best friend and your worst enemy. That's just the way it is.
@seanotube85 Yes, but that is because you see the invested value in is life. you realize that he would do the same for you so if you have him around you will have a better chance of survival.
@Thunderharald No, it's not about a better chance of survival. Imagine if you had a little brother who was weak and disabled. Are you saying you wouldn't care if he lived or died because he couldn't protect your chances of survival? Enough of that Ayn Randian bullshit. Nobody thinks like that except for sociopaths.
@seanotube85 Howard is pointing out why kin selection has some wholes in it, as does individual selection. If your statement is meant to argue this video, then you might give it another listen.
I must admit that I absolutely loved the Global Brain.. The Lucifer Principle was one of the greatest books i've ever read.
outlaw87100 6 months ago
~Hummmm, --does the world really need another jewZionist 'know it all' athiest; --this guy is totally imbued with voodoojoo-science, and the fatally subversive notion that jew-Communism/Capitalism has something of value to offer the world! However, looking at the sinister truth lurking behind their cloak of deception, --one invariable finds the primitive-minded self-serving Jew robber-baron masters of usury, -plotting yet another warmongering scheme by which to abuse their gullible hosts...!!!
AryanKnight 7 months ago
You sad, sad, moronic human being.
DonLeon505 7 months ago
@DonLeon505 ---You're apparently introspecting again...!
AryanKnight 7 months ago
@AryanKnight Your whole argument is an introspect of inherited bias developed by Hitler to scheme and paint the Jews as a scapegoat to the Germans. Or maybe it's just incoherent, ignorant, moronic racism... who knows?
DonLeon505 7 months ago
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CorporateRule 1 year ago
The Lucifer Principle was really excellent but his grasp on evolution is shaky. He needs to reread Dawkins to understand the "if" - "then" chemical reaction concept for a better understanding of genetics. He's overly anthropomorphic because of it.
longslidenyc 1 year ago
Howard Bloom doesn't even understand The Selfish Gene. He's an idiot who works very hard to sound smart.
maulcs 1 year ago
@maulcs Um no.
PiratGeneralen 1 year ago
@maulcs I think he says that it both exist as well as group.
y2zgt 1 year ago
He's wrong about the aspect on equations and science at the end, but okay work overall.
IcyNami 1 year ago
@IcyNami In what way ?
PiratGeneralen 1 year ago
I wouldn't save my brother because I share his genes. I'd save him because I've known him my whole life and I can see the value in his life. If I found out my brother was adopted I'd still save his life over a stranger's.
seanotube85 2 years ago 16
Evolutionary explanations are best understood by looking at a trait - let's say love for a brother - and working backwards down through evolutionary time. Why did saving and loving one's brother become selected for so strongly to eventually become what it is in us humans? Looking back to the more primitive levels and forms of life there's clearly gene-kin selection among groups. Check out the book The Making Of The Fittest by Sean B Carroll. Hope I helped a little. It's confusing stuff at 1st.
longslidenyc 2 years ago
Sorry... I have to say it's a little more complicated than purely genes. Environment and interaction within a species or group of individuals are all factors as well.
seanotube85 2 years ago
Yes friend, it is complicated. A combination of nature and nurture. Another good book recomendation on that very topic would be The Agile Gene by Matt Ridley. Environments and interactions all act on something and that's genes. And they interact to either survive or not.
longslidenyc 2 years ago
That relationship and affection you feel for your brother is an evolutionary survival strategy to protect those closely related to you.
SuddenCatharsis 2 years ago 18
"an evolutionary survival strategy to protect those closely related to you."
Some people hate their brothers and could care less if they died. Is that due to evolved predisposed psychology or sociological interaction? I would say the latter.
seanotube85 2 years ago
Definitely the latter, however your point does nothing to disprove the point that SuddenCatharsis made. It can be an evolutionary survival strategy that can be overridden given certain extreme emotions based on sociological interaction. You can naturally love your sister, but override that love with hatred if you find out she is a murderer, for example.
xFayte 2 years ago
"It can be an evolutionary survival strategy that can be overridden given certain extreme emotions based on sociological interaction."
Okay, but I didn't get how that was the point he was making at all.
"You can naturally love your sister, but override that love with hatred if you find out she is a murderer, for example. "
I think love is something that is earned more than something that's natural (genetically encoded). I think it's earned through sociological interaction just like hatred.
seanotube85 2 years ago
@SuddenCatharsis If I didn't know that he's my brother I wouldn't
deadzior 1 year ago
@seanotube85
Not "the value"; just "value".
ViejoIvan 1 year ago
BTW; if you found out that your brother was adopted he would still be your brother in your eyes...
"save him because I've known him my whole life and see the value in his life" Actually that happens with everyne you know since your birth, even if they are bad people or even criminals the fact that you really know him and had interacted with him/her make you save his life.
ViejoIvan 1 year ago
@ViejoIvan Like I saidsociological interaction.
P.S.
I think most people understood what I was saying, but thanks for the edit anyways.
seanotube85 1 year ago
@seanotube85
I think you didnt understood what i said; the way to identify who is your brother is for the time that you have spend with him; your genes cannot put an arrow over your brothers head and say: "Save this one!"
ViejoIvan 1 year ago
@ViejoIvan Uhm... you do understand that sociological interactions are unrelated to genetics, don't you? You said earlier, "the fact that you really know him and had interacted with him/her make you save his life." Not always true. Some people end up hating their brother/sister.Some people end up killing their brother/sister. Some people have even ended up fighting on opposite sides of a war from their brother/sister.But all this aside, what is your POINT (preferably summed up in one sentence)??
seanotube85 1 year ago
@seanotube85
mmmm.... let me show you how nature works:
you DONT eat because you need nutritiens to survive, you do it because hunger is a annoying feeling and even painful in extreme cases.
You DONT have sex because you want to reproduce, you have sex because it gives you pleasure.
ETC ETC ETC
"you do understand that sociological interactions are unrelated to genetics"
This is utterly and complety false without doubt; why? For example Piranhas dont eat each other, they could
ViejoIvan 1 year ago
@seanotube85
but it is complety against survival; and they dont have a moral coded, is hard writted in their genes.
Even in elephants, they take care of each other in the same herd, however, when one of them interacts with elephants of another herd the outcome is not that good.
My point? I already said it: Gennes cannot put an arrow over your brothers head and say "Hey save this one"; the way you identify your brother and relatives is based on the time that you had spend with them.
ViejoIvan 1 year ago
@seanotube85
BTW; no always true; but in most cases is true... And that is a fact if you read a little bit about siblings relationships.
ViejoIvan 1 year ago
@seanotube85
When i say "You" i mean your sociological view plus the genes that created the map to create the brain where this "sociological view" resides.
ViejoIvan 1 year ago
@ViejoIvan
Okay, I get what you're saying now. No matter what you do, you are reacting to outside stimuli and how you react is partly due to the outside stimuli and partly due to where you are evolutionarily speaking. But all I'm saying is that within our own species, we are all genetically quite similar relative to other species, so it's more the social interactions that affect our behavior than our differences in genetics WITHIN our species.
seanotube85 1 year ago
@seanotube85 His comment is not about YOU, it's about the principle of saving those which are relative of your self. The reason you would save your brother is more complicated, which i think has alot to do with the tribal nature of life.
googoo120 1 year ago
@googoo120 Whoever is relative to oneself is relative through social interactions in the world and how these shape the way you feel about others. This includes your brother, your best friend and your worst enemy. That's just the way it is.
seanotube85 1 year ago
@seanotube85 Yes, but that is because you see the invested value in is life. you realize that he would do the same for you so if you have him around you will have a better chance of survival.
Thunderharald 1 year ago
@Thunderharald No, it's not about a better chance of survival. Imagine if you had a little brother who was weak and disabled. Are you saying you wouldn't care if he lived or died because he couldn't protect your chances of survival? Enough of that Ayn Randian bullshit. Nobody thinks like that except for sociopaths.
seanotube85 1 year ago
@seanotube85 good point
Thunderharald 1 year ago
@seanotube85 Howard is pointing out why kin selection has some wholes in it, as does individual selection. If your statement is meant to argue this video, then you might give it another listen.
alohaoliwa 1 year ago 4