@ianmastin - oh yeah, big time ... after about 10 hours of run time, the oil in the crankcase looks like a mocha latte .. I suggest that to extend the life of your sacrificial engine, you try to run it on gas for about an hour after a day of running HHO to get it good and hot so the water evaporates off ... engine head temps are only 150F on HHO instead of 650F on gasoline ... so lot of water accumulation ...
@ianmastin a friend of mine told me i could coat the inside of the engine and exaust with some sort of ceramic to save the motor not sure if that would work but its an idea
hey buddy.....you need a backfire arrestor! depending on what your hho generator is made of?.. you dont want one of those exploding near anything living!!! 1 inch diameter pvc tubing about 2 or 3 inches long stuffed with brass wool.....actually, go look up backfire arrestors here on youtube ising metal or pvc tubing with brass wool. since i dont have audio here at the library and cant hear you mention anything about the hho generator, this is why i say..BACKFIRE ARRESTOR!.
@bikr1975 - the backfires when starting the engine were caused by a lean condition - was trying to determine how little HHO I could feed the engine and still have it start and run - answer is 1 lpm per 10cc engine displacement - I use a fairly complex bubbler system shown in other videos to keep a flashback from reaching my HHO device - none of my flashbacks ever got past the final bubbler though that one has been destroyed a number of times
POW!!!!! then dogs barking LMAO thats a classic man. ok ok for my 2cents, use a car man, with a AFC to tune it properly. upgrade your alternator, buy a high amp alternator or ADD an additional alternator(you need to have alot of amps to fine your best operating range).port to your vacuum. use BIG wires for the cells(fact if you are sending 12vdc@30amps through 4awg vs 0awg wires, the 4awg wire will leak more current) less current leak is better so bigger wires are better. hope my 2cents count.
@richardlyew - actually, my setup is intended to run on 120vAC at 20amp ... I use 10 ga romex for wiring ... works quite well for its rated power consumption ...
this device is quite productive and reasonably efficient ... I have seen only a few devices out there that can produce the volume of gas I do and those were based on similar design ...
the intent of these experiments was to document the results possible with off the shelf components with as few mods as possible ...
if you get the timing of the engine retarded to zero or more negutive, it wont take nearly as much hho gas and you wont have as many problems... changing the compression should only be done to increase torque and horsepower, if you change it without changing the timing your gonna get a catastrophic engine failure
@bill71183 - it turned out that ignition timing was only part of the problem. Also required valve timing adjustments. In the end, I used a small computer connected to solenoids that activated the valves and fired the ignition. By late last summer, I was using an automotive fuel injector to introduce the gas at just the right time. Some of what I worked on last year was a bit dangerous and was not shown on YouTube.
spark timing and valve timing are probably the next tests to get into.
like a boat motor the exhaust valve timing is such that the exhaust valve closes to prevent water from being vacuumed in through the exhaust at an idle.
hence the rough race car sounding idle.
also as the burn rate of HHO is much faster than gasoline so timing near TDC should produce more power with less fuel with less hazard of back firing
Hi, some of the smaller engines that dont have a distributor and fire every time the crank turns 360 wont work with HHO, reason being, you have a spark when you dont want it, the spark should only be at TDC power stroke, the HHO gas is very very flamable , boom :) when the hho gas is in the intake, and a spark occures during a overlap exhaust stroke when you dont want it too, its not a problem with gasoline, but it is a problem with HHO
@nasanction - not really looking for an alternative to run this little generator. In fact, this little genny was purchased specifically with running on HHO in mind. My experiments over nearly 14 months yielded much data on how to optimize small engines for HHO as the fuel. It was done purely for fun of it and to learn something new. Many are working on wood gas. I chose a different path.
@SmartScarecrow That's cool, I'm more into home self efficiency. I built my best HHO Gen about 2 years ago. Most I got was 1.5 lpm at 10amps. Was fun, but the energy issue has taken me away from this direction. I wasn't sure if you knew about the wood gasifier or not, so I thought I would mention it.
Oh, and try feeding your HHO in behind the choke plate.. you can't control mixture accurately once it's beyond the throttle plate. Maybe make an aluminum block to go on in place of the air filter with the fitting like you used on your spacer block. Ideally, something similar to a propane carb would be the best, as it would inject directly into the venturi, plus have metering screws for the main and idle circuits. Hope this helps. :))
this is a great idea and I would love to follow through on it ... however, my fabrication skills are not up to the task ... I did try making a "carb" similar to what you describe out of acrylic but it did not work very well ... one of the other fellows I work with who is better at such things is working on such a device ... if it works, he will make a second one for me to try ...
From what I heard while that engine was running on HHO, it's waay too far advanced. That's why you can't rev it up. Most of those small engine ignition modules have built-in advance circuitry that kick the timing up to 26-30 deg. BTDC. Try building a steel plate with slots to allow you to rotate that module about 25 deg. or more clockwise to get the timing ATDC and I bet you'll be really surprised. ;-)) Your fuel required to start and run will go way down and you'll save on mufflers..
you are quite correct ... I did mess with the timing on the one I did a couple years ago and was surprised to find that it ran best in the 20-60 deg after top center range ...
the purpose for these experiments was to see if there might be a way to moderate the burn rate of HHO to get it act more like gasoline ... we had modest success, but it did not do as well as we had hoped ... timing mods appear to be required ...
how about attaching a extender pole a few inches further from the fly wheel add a alternator and a belt to it and you can power a battery and still drill start the engine but saves on electricity bills lol
well, the alternator associated with the little generator has so far been adequate for test purposes ... we are limited in how much power we can pull due to engine loading ... as we pull power, the engine slows then stops ... so far, we have only been able to draw 600 watts ... working on it ...
I am now using the technique D3 uses to start the engine as pulling on that darn cord is wearing out my arm ... so I use a 1/2 inch battery powered drill to start it now ...
have you thought about using the HHO on a system that would accept it better and is built for high combustion?something like a turbofan?its what they use in nasa and also use the HHO from stan meyers inventions just an idea
So far, the magic associated with Stan Meyer has eluded me ... maybe someone else will figure it out ... I pretty much stick with what I know works ...
I can only work with the sacrificial engines that I can afford ... I would love to get my hands on a more efficient, more suitable engine to play with ... but until a wealthy benefactor shows up, I will keep playing with my cheap Chinese Honda knock off ... at least until I finally managed to blow it up ...
my last post didt take. we did the same thing you have done about 5 years ago. great minds think alike. hehe. you will need to convert the engine to fuel injection. and rework the ignition to a more automobile like system we use a chain and pully removed the magnito installe two sets of points one for the ignition and one for the fuel injector from a toyota. pints from a vw. this worked well and gave us control of the ignition. you will then not need to rework the flywheel and is saves time.
the timing mods are easy enough to do; did that on one I was working with 2 years ago so the method is well known to me. these tests were focused on trying to moderate the burn speed of the HHO gas. Trying to find a way to slow it down to something close to gasoline so more of the impulse can be extracted. Some promising results were obtained.
the method of fuel injection you describe is of interest to me. Can you clarify how this was done? air/fuel metering is an issue I need to resolve ...
you might want to have a look at the 9 part video sequence that follows this one ... had an associate spend 10 days with me to run through a punch list of things to try ... one thing we did extensive experimentation with was a head milled to provide a 13:1 compression ratio ...
in some of the videos I have published, there is no carborator, let alone a float bowl ... the carb is handy for its butterfly though so I so prefer to use it ...
I think if everyone would work together to come up with the right system so that the BIG THREE could incorporate it into a new car or truck, But everyone wants to keep there own system. If there was a origination to meet and knock around ideas to get AMERICA back to inviting something the whole world could use to stop using oil . Just something to think about
been watching these clips for a few months over here in eugene oregon we have a huge shop and have put lots of those old wet cells in vehicals we switched over to a dry cell recently all because of SID Young we put the 36 plate design in the local snap on truck last weekend WAITING for fuel milage results IT is important to me to save diesel customers money on cost of fuel because of the fact they pay my bills
we are doing some work with diesel engines now. one problem we are running into with these relates to turbo charged engines. its tough to inject the hho into such an engine when you cant rely on manifold vacuum to draw the gas into the combustion chamber. how have you addressed this issue?
I dont think I saw that ... post me a link to it if you think about it ... but I am going to try something a bit different ... I going to try something geet-ish and see what can be done to conserve the HHO that might be getting past the rings and even out the exhaust ... have to see if that helps ... maybe after that will look at vapor injection ... a simple vapor injector would be an interesting toy to play wiht ...
Hi Scarecrow , have you looked in to rapping your own permanet magnet generator like for windmill use. I am trying to copy Green-Trust video, and they also have a great diy site. Nice work on everything.
I fear that I do not have the proper skills nor the time to devote to such an endeavor ... I am aware that the efficiency of the alternator and the engine on this cheap Chinese made generator are far from state of the art ... suspect that if I could afford an engine in the 20% thermal efficient range and a state of the art alternator, I would already be able to close the loop ... but R&D funds are tight and I gotta work a full time job to support my HHO addiction ... so I do what I can do ...
I ordered and got everthing to make a 1500watt perm generator you can spin by hand, I'll post a video the moment its done. Magnets and wires are the only thing that has to be ordered the other parts are brake rotors and bearings.
To busy to put the time into doing it right and the stuff was expensive( well for my budget). But I will be posting a video when I have the time to make it.
i just imersed the cell in electorlyte so that i could see what was happening(different cell to yours)it was an experiment to see the behavior of the electricity. with you sidcell type you cannot see if the middle 10 plates are conduct but there must be a way to physically view it.
if the voltage is to low between gaps it will it will automatically go ok i cannot go that way through the plates so i will just go straight through the electolite and be really in effecient. i have found that around about 5 gaps seem easy for it .
maybe experiment with this to see if mmw goes up.
i am at around 5.5 with my sid cell style first up and now will try different config.
what I have found is that in larger devices, with 50 or more plates, a wider plate gap works better at getting fluid in and gas out ... I like 2mm ...
I have also found that it helps a lot to have multiple points where fluid goes in and gas comes out so things dont get clogged ... think you were running dry in the middle ... not enough fluid getting in there ...
My monster device is normally configured with between 65 and 101 plates ... 3 x 1/2" ports in, 3x1/2" ports out ... works great
i did a test with 60 plates seperated by 1mm and tried to run 110v through it but to my suprise it did not allow hho production from the middle 50 plates. hmm i thought electricity is lazy and will travel the path of least resistance .,
ok so it became apparernt the it is physically impractical so i tried 5 spaces with 7 plates 5n and enough seperate cells in series to add to 110v all in seperate solution and wammo. perfect production.
Enjoying your progress, did you know that NASA did some research on Hydrogen assisted multicyclinder piston engines back in 1977. They even used the exhaust heat to hydrogen enrich a mixture of Methanol through a steam reformer, very similar to a GEET type system.
Google
" EMISSIONS AND TOTAL ENERGY CONSUMPTION OF A MULTICYLINDER PISTON ENGINE RUNNING ON GASOLINE AND A HYDROGEN-GASOLINE MIXTURE "
to view PDF document. System was found to reduce emmissions & increase economy.
the timing on a gasoline i.c.e. is slower than it needs to be to run on hho. Since hho burns around 2.5Xs faster than gasoline the timing needs to be advanced. I am not an expert, just trying to give some advice. If someone knows different please tell me so I can learn.
at some point I may find it desireable to retard the timing so it fires a little later than it fires now ... but I am trying a number of things to slow the burn rate of the HHO so this may not be needed ...
gasoline engines converted to run on pure hydrogen normally run better with timing set to TDC or even a little after TDC ... I am aware of this ... however, my experiments are focused on finding a mix of "moderators" that slows the burn rate of the HHO being used to see if it can made to burn in a way more similar to gasoline ... basically, I am trying to introduce octane if you will ... if I fail, I can always retard the timing ...
Try to find a turbocharger for that engine to recirculate the exhaust. I think the Honda Z50 49cc motorcycle has a small aftermarket turbo system, so maybe you can locate something for a 3.5hp.
its an idea we had thought of ... but there are some issues with exhaust from the engine when running HHO that we will discuss in future videos that might make a turbo less than usefull ...
Do you think the waste spark from the engine had any effect on all the backfiring and the muffler / intake detonation?
Or have you done something about eliminating the waste spark? I know if your timing is still advanced (stock) then it technically shouldn't be an issue.
Great stuff, you and Zero are doing great work. Wish he would get his camera fixed, repaired or replaced.
I am not so concerned about the waste spark issue ... I am not convinced its as big a boogie man as many think ... the reason for the back fires was over lean air/fuel mixture, plain and simple ... what I was doing was slowly stepping up HHO production at my device until I found the lowest amount of gas that permit the engine to run ... I found that at about 5-6 lpm ... once I was producing that volume, the engine started, ran well at idle, and no backfires ...
Even if the waste spark isn't creating backfires, wouldn't it be wasting your hho by igniting it at the wrong time? I would imagine that up to 1/2 of the hho could be consumed by the waste spark thus reducing the efficiency greatly. I also like the idea of channeling the exhaust back into the system. There is probably some gas escaping during the exhaust stroke.
You may be right, but at least on this engine, I see no evidence of any loss of HHO associated with the waste spark. This may be one of those things that are issues on some engines but not on others. We think that there may be considerable loss of HHO fuel to blow by at the piston rings. We are looking at tighter rings and exhaust recirculation.
Crow you are exactly right on milling head on gen. and retard timing to bring piston as close to tDc. also need to think about getting HHO closer to cyl. intake as possible. Great Job
I've been tracking your and others EBN, etc. progress for awhile. Interesting research.
I'm considering the viability of a small hho setup for my Harley (gas HOG-only 40 mpg), but am concerned about the minimal electrical output of MC charging systems. (of course then there's the dilemma of chrome plating a bubbler-but that's another matter...)
Any thoughts or suggestions, anyone?
Has anyone or others considered flashback suppressors for oxy/accetylene rigs?
I would think that on a motorcycle, a very small device is all that would be required as a booster if that is where you are headed ... should not take much HHO to see some impact on an engine in the 1200cc range ...
you might target about 12v at about 5a ... a smallish but well designed device should be able to produce about 300ml per min of HHO with that modest input energy ... I think that should be enough for you to see some impact ...
4, 6, 8, 10, 12 inch plates will all work fine depending on what you plan to do with it and how you plan to power it ... I have seen some big HHO welders that use 24 inch plates ...
stainless steel is a poor conductor ... I have found that if you exceed 8" size, you best plan on making electrical connection at opposite corners at least ... as plate size increases, the device can absorb more amps and thus make more gas ... requires more power though ...
tomatoes are 100% organic ... yeah, its pretty scary what even a small quantity of this gas can do when confined in a tight space or put under pressure ...
it happened at the same point where the air cleaner blew off the front of the thing ... I was feeding massive quantities of gas into the engine getting ready to run the genny at full tilt so I could light up the darn shop lamp ... not as easy to do as you might think ... somehow, managed to accumulate gas in both the intake and exhaust ... big badda booooom ... same one took out the intake and the exhaust ... did not notice the damage to exhause until a bit later when its guts fell out ...
the plain and simple fact is that what I am doing here is dangerous ... there is the potential for personal injury and property damage ...
if anyone plans on following this project, and I hope some will, you gotta take responsibility for your actions and keep your head about you ... you will be playing with rocket fuel ... as soon as you get distracted or lazy, it will bite you in the ass HARD ...
Great work but be careful running w/o a muffler. ice prefer a little back pressure and w/o muffler you will have a tendency to burn your exhaust valves.
I am aware that this ... and have something in mind that should solve the problem in the near term ... dont think will run it more than maybe another 8-10 hours without something providing back pressure ... just have not decided quite yet what that might be ... suspect will turn out to be a pretty strange looking piece of custom plumbing ...
Looking good, did I hear you correctly- 6000ml at 1000w = 6mmw, and then- 9000ml at 2000w = 4.5mmw. Did you just add more electrolyte to bring up the Watts? Or something else?
you are correct ... when I run my electrolyser at fairly tame settings, I get pretty decent mmw's, normally into the high 5's just under 6 ... but when I crank it up for all its got, I make lots of gas, but the mmw is in the toilet, often dropping into the low 4's ... adjustments are done using voltage at the variac and increased KOH in the soup ...
I am not a hard core vegetarian ... I enjoy a good piece of meat from time to time ... but my diet is more Asian than American ... meat for me is a supplement taken in modest quantities ... I enjoy good Burbon, a cold beer and the occational cigar also ... all things in moderation ...
gardening is just another of my hobbies ... one of the more practical I might add ... there's not many things more satisfying than eating food you grew yourself ...
Nice Job! I have had to run my 3.0hp generator today to charge my car batter, this normally will take 4 hours of charging at 3/4th a gallon of fuel, well I connected the hho at 2LPM into intake, and after 4hrs I only used 1/2 a gallon, when I had the load on the engine I did not hear it until I removed the HHO. Also My 115 plates are being drilled by a professional and I am cutting the gaskets now, thanks for the help!
you mention an experimental path that needs to be followed ... there are a few of us working hard to document methods required to get a small engine to run well on 100% HHO ... this needs to be done ... but I am not aware of anyone right now documenting the practicality of using HHO boost on a generator to extend run times ... I have played a little with this, but it needs investigation ...
i may do this experiment for my first installment and contribution to our cause.
i intend on using say 50ml of fuel and timing it twice and then using my car charger running of the generator to run my cell with the output to the air intake. if you agree with this method please email me an ok and any other sugestion.
the idea of using an electrolyzer as a booster on a generator is an interesting one ... I have heard of a couple folks who were going to give it a go, but never got any hard facts or results back ... so if you think you can do it safely, please do and let us know your results ...
mythinking is that if the generator can produce 10a, see about using 2a of that to run a booster ... determine if the booster is efficient based on draw/run time ... valuable data to be obtained ...
I already got all the really good ones for today ... ate one of 'em fresh off the vine right after the photo shoot ... tastey ... that other one is for tomarrow ... squash is pretty much played out at this point though ... shame ... I really love sauted squash in butter with a bit of garlic ...
hey, you think all I do is run engines on water ??? man's gotta eat !!!
Well, I wish I was closer to your neck of the woods. Welding a flange to accept a muffler really wouldnt be too difficult. The muffler I got on my bubbler came from Tractor supply for $7, screwed right on a pipe nipple. Would really be a matter of just welding the nipple to the flange...
hehehe ... carefull Pat ... I am looking for a sucker, 'er, a good sport to construct an air tight bubbler type gizmo for me with about three inlets (exhaust, crank case, HHO feed) and one outlet (HHO/steam/exhaust mix) along with a bullet proof blow out port ... if you get a little too much hydrogen in that right hand of yours, its liable to raise up like you is a volunteer ... LOL ...
I am looking forward to doing some experimenting myself,going to build my 1st drycell 31p 6x6 4n6, I am excited.Got my steel yesterday waiting on my gasket material, and cutting board for my ends...
go for it ... think the guy on eBay that I got the generator from still has few if you are interested ... but talk to d3adp001 about using the 6" plate electrolyser ... you might not be able to get them to draw enough amps for this application ... think he is talking about setting up his 8" devices to try to catch up to me ... the 8" plate provides the surface area to permit higher amperage and thus more production ...
you may be onto something there ... this seems to me to be a pretty clear cut case of defects in workmanship ...
these guys surely knew that some American Yahoo was gonna try running their generator on rocket fuel so should have constructed it a good more sturdy ... they should be ashamed of themselves ...
actually, the way I have abused this poor thing, I think I would recommend this brand to anyone who wants a sturdy little gasoline generator ...
Comment removed
commando7144 4 months ago in playlist More videos from SmartScarecrow
are there any signs of watter damage or rust, this one problemi have been expecting. i want to start testing a system
ianmastin 5 months ago
@ianmastin - oh yeah, big time ... after about 10 hours of run time, the oil in the crankcase looks like a mocha latte .. I suggest that to extend the life of your sacrificial engine, you try to run it on gas for about an hour after a day of running HHO to get it good and hot so the water evaporates off ... engine head temps are only 150F on HHO instead of 650F on gasoline ... so lot of water accumulation ...
SmartScarecrow 4 months ago
@ianmastin a friend of mine told me i could coat the inside of the engine and exaust with some sort of ceramic to save the motor not sure if that would work but its an idea
ianmastin 4 months ago
hey buddy.....you need a backfire arrestor! depending on what your hho generator is made of?.. you dont want one of those exploding near anything living!!! 1 inch diameter pvc tubing about 2 or 3 inches long stuffed with brass wool.....actually, go look up backfire arrestors here on youtube ising metal or pvc tubing with brass wool. since i dont have audio here at the library and cant hear you mention anything about the hho generator, this is why i say..BACKFIRE ARRESTOR!.
good luck.
bikr1975 11 months ago
@bikr1975 - the backfires when starting the engine were caused by a lean condition - was trying to determine how little HHO I could feed the engine and still have it start and run - answer is 1 lpm per 10cc engine displacement - I use a fairly complex bubbler system shown in other videos to keep a flashback from reaching my HHO device - none of my flashbacks ever got past the final bubbler though that one has been destroyed a number of times
SmartScarecrow 11 months ago
POW!!!!! then dogs barking LMAO thats a classic man. ok ok for my 2cents, use a car man, with a AFC to tune it properly. upgrade your alternator, buy a high amp alternator or ADD an additional alternator(you need to have alot of amps to fine your best operating range).port to your vacuum. use BIG wires for the cells(fact if you are sending 12vdc@30amps through 4awg vs 0awg wires, the 4awg wire will leak more current) less current leak is better so bigger wires are better. hope my 2cents count.
richardlyew 1 year ago
@richardlyew - actually, my setup is intended to run on 120vAC at 20amp ... I use 10 ga romex for wiring ... works quite well for its rated power consumption ...
this device is quite productive and reasonably efficient ... I have seen only a few devices out there that can produce the volume of gas I do and those were based on similar design ...
the intent of these experiments was to document the results possible with off the shelf components with as few mods as possible ...
SmartScarecrow 1 year ago
if you get the timing of the engine retarded to zero or more negutive, it wont take nearly as much hho gas and you wont have as many problems... changing the compression should only be done to increase torque and horsepower, if you change it without changing the timing your gonna get a catastrophic engine failure
bill71183 1 year ago
@bill71183 - it turned out that ignition timing was only part of the problem. Also required valve timing adjustments. In the end, I used a small computer connected to solenoids that activated the valves and fired the ignition. By late last summer, I was using an automotive fuel injector to introduce the gas at just the right time. Some of what I worked on last year was a bit dangerous and was not shown on YouTube.
SmartScarecrow 1 year ago
spark timing and valve timing are probably the next tests to get into.
like a boat motor the exhaust valve timing is such that the exhaust valve closes to prevent water from being vacuumed in through the exhaust at an idle.
hence the rough race car sounding idle.
also as the burn rate of HHO is much faster than gasoline so timing near TDC should produce more power with less fuel with less hazard of back firing
you have great videos, thanks
michaelfelgner 1 year ago
Hi, some of the smaller engines that dont have a distributor and fire every time the crank turns 360 wont work with HHO, reason being, you have a spark when you dont want it, the spark should only be at TDC power stroke, the HHO gas is very very flamable , boom :) when the hho gas is in the intake, and a spark occures during a overlap exhaust stroke when you dont want it too, its not a problem with gasoline, but it is a problem with HHO
CHELLIE2408 1 year ago
great i going to do my let see it turn out. i saw a guy only use 5 lpm to run his generator. don't know how he did that but who know.
thegreatkoua 2 years ago
If your looking for something to run your Generator on besides Gas.
Look up Wood Gasifier. I think you would be pleased.
Homestead!
nasanction 2 years ago
@nasanction - not really looking for an alternative to run this little generator. In fact, this little genny was purchased specifically with running on HHO in mind. My experiments over nearly 14 months yielded much data on how to optimize small engines for HHO as the fuel. It was done purely for fun of it and to learn something new. Many are working on wood gas. I chose a different path.
SmartScarecrow 2 years ago
@SmartScarecrow That's cool, I'm more into home self efficiency. I built my best HHO Gen about 2 years ago. Most I got was 1.5 lpm at 10amps. Was fun, but the energy issue has taken me away from this direction. I wasn't sure if you knew about the wood gasifier or not, so I thought I would mention it.
Homestead!
nasanction 2 years ago
Sorry, here's the video to check out
"Easy engine conversion to run on hydrogen"
Look it up on google.
jhwtech 2 years ago
have you seen this video?
If not, I think it would help.
watch the part about the size of inlet tube.
I know he is using hh and not hho but your inlet should not be more than 1/3 larger.
Hope this helps
jhwtech 2 years ago
Oh, and try feeding your HHO in behind the choke plate.. you can't control mixture accurately once it's beyond the throttle plate. Maybe make an aluminum block to go on in place of the air filter with the fitting like you used on your spacer block. Ideally, something similar to a propane carb would be the best, as it would inject directly into the venturi, plus have metering screws for the main and idle circuits. Hope this helps. :))
lrover03 2 years ago
this is a great idea and I would love to follow through on it ... however, my fabrication skills are not up to the task ... I did try making a "carb" similar to what you describe out of acrylic but it did not work very well ... one of the other fellows I work with who is better at such things is working on such a device ... if it works, he will make a second one for me to try ...
SmartScarecrow 2 years ago
From what I heard while that engine was running on HHO, it's waay too far advanced. That's why you can't rev it up. Most of those small engine ignition modules have built-in advance circuitry that kick the timing up to 26-30 deg. BTDC. Try building a steel plate with slots to allow you to rotate that module about 25 deg. or more clockwise to get the timing ATDC and I bet you'll be really surprised. ;-)) Your fuel required to start and run will go way down and you'll save on mufflers..
Lrover
lrover03 2 years ago
you are quite correct ... I did mess with the timing on the one I did a couple years ago and was surprised to find that it ran best in the 20-60 deg after top center range ...
the purpose for these experiments was to see if there might be a way to moderate the burn rate of HHO to get it act more like gasoline ... we had modest success, but it did not do as well as we had hoped ... timing mods appear to be required ...
SmartScarecrow 2 years ago
love how the yanks say tube. toob while we tend to say tchewb or tyoob
SXiStylezz 2 years ago
how about attaching a extender pole a few inches further from the fly wheel add a alternator and a belt to it and you can power a battery and still drill start the engine but saves on electricity bills lol
iwantit162 2 years ago
well, the alternator associated with the little generator has so far been adequate for test purposes ... we are limited in how much power we can pull due to engine loading ... as we pull power, the engine slows then stops ... so far, we have only been able to draw 600 watts ... working on it ...
I am now using the technique D3 uses to start the engine as pulling on that darn cord is wearing out my arm ... so I use a 1/2 inch battery powered drill to start it now ...
SmartScarecrow 2 years ago
nice tomatoes
RobertMattocks 2 years ago
yep, tasty ... just put in this year's crop a couple weeks ago ...
SmartScarecrow 2 years ago
have you thought about using the HHO on a system that would accept it better and is built for high combustion?something like a turbofan?its what they use in nasa and also use the HHO from stan meyers inventions just an idea
iwantit162 2 years ago
So far, the magic associated with Stan Meyer has eluded me ... maybe someone else will figure it out ... I pretty much stick with what I know works ...
I can only work with the sacrificial engines that I can afford ... I would love to get my hands on a more efficient, more suitable engine to play with ... but until a wealthy benefactor shows up, I will keep playing with my cheap Chinese Honda knock off ... at least until I finally managed to blow it up ...
SmartScarecrow 2 years ago
my last post didt take. we did the same thing you have done about 5 years ago. great minds think alike. hehe. you will need to convert the engine to fuel injection. and rework the ignition to a more automobile like system we use a chain and pully removed the magnito installe two sets of points one for the ignition and one for the fuel injector from a toyota. pints from a vw. this worked well and gave us control of the ignition. you will then not need to rework the flywheel and is saves time.
sparten1114 3 years ago
the timing mods are easy enough to do; did that on one I was working with 2 years ago so the method is well known to me. these tests were focused on trying to moderate the burn speed of the HHO gas. Trying to find a way to slow it down to something close to gasoline so more of the impulse can be extracted. Some promising results were obtained.
the method of fuel injection you describe is of interest to me. Can you clarify how this was done? air/fuel metering is an issue I need to resolve ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
you might want to have a look at the 9 part video sequence that follows this one ... had an associate spend 10 days with me to run through a punch list of things to try ... one thing we did extensive experimentation with was a head milled to provide a 13:1 compression ratio ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
you were running on the gas in your float
it will run up to 10 minute like that on some.
NOBOX7 3 years ago
in some of the videos I have published, there is no carborator, let alone a float bowl ... the carb is handy for its butterfly though so I so prefer to use it ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
also for got to mention we milled down the head and it help with compresion. watch the valve clearance too. hope this helps.
sparten1114 3 years ago
I think if everyone would work together to come up with the right system so that the BIG THREE could incorporate it into a new car or truck, But everyone wants to keep there own system. If there was a origination to meet and knock around ideas to get AMERICA back to inviting something the whole world could use to stop using oil . Just something to think about
chkmahow 3 years ago
no one can afford to do that.
Ergock 3 years ago
been watching these clips for a few months over here in eugene oregon we have a huge shop and have put lots of those old wet cells in vehicals we switched over to a dry cell recently all because of SID Young we put the 36 plate design in the local snap on truck last weekend WAITING for fuel milage results IT is important to me to save diesel customers money on cost of fuel because of the fact they pay my bills
hydrogoguys 3 years ago
we are doing some work with diesel engines now. one problem we are running into with these relates to turbo charged engines. its tough to inject the hho into such an engine when you cant rely on manifold vacuum to draw the gas into the combustion chamber. how have you addressed this issue?
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
gday scarecrow
i just watched a video of this guy with a really simple vapour injection on his mower and if you have not seen it you may really appreciate it.
the search name is rcjera.
would love to see your ideas flow with this.
i am going to have a play as well.
regards andy
kissmyhho 3 years ago
I dont think I saw that ... post me a link to it if you think about it ... but I am going to try something a bit different ... I going to try something geet-ish and see what can be done to conserve the HHO that might be getting past the rings and even out the exhaust ... have to see if that helps ... maybe after that will look at vapor injection ... a simple vapor injector would be an interesting toy to play wiht ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Hi Scarecrow , have you looked in to rapping your own permanet magnet generator like for windmill use. I am trying to copy Green-Trust video, and they also have a great diy site. Nice work on everything.
tjgame2 3 years ago
I fear that I do not have the proper skills nor the time to devote to such an endeavor ... I am aware that the efficiency of the alternator and the engine on this cheap Chinese made generator are far from state of the art ... suspect that if I could afford an engine in the 20% thermal efficient range and a state of the art alternator, I would already be able to close the loop ... but R&D funds are tight and I gotta work a full time job to support my HHO addiction ... so I do what I can do ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
I ordered and got everthing to make a 1500watt perm generator you can spin by hand, I'll post a video the moment its done. Magnets and wires are the only thing that has to be ordered the other parts are brake rotors and bearings.
tjgame2 3 years ago
did it work?
Ergock 3 years ago
did what work ?
yes, as I said on camera, I was able to run the engine quite nicely and for extended periods on HHO ...
as far as a 1500w perm mag genny that you spin by hand, I have no idea ... that one is beyond my area of expertise ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
I was repling to tjgame2 but youtubes commenting system made it look like i just randomly asked did it work =P
awesome experiments by the way I just got a 5hp 4 stroke engine so im gonna try to get that to run (at least for a few seconds)
Ergock 3 years ago
To busy to put the time into doing it right and the stuff was expensive( well for my budget). But I will be posting a video when I have the time to make it.
tjgame2 3 years ago
I see, keep me posted if you do finish it.
Ergock 3 years ago
hi there
thanks for reply
i just imersed the cell in electorlyte so that i could see what was happening(different cell to yours)it was an experiment to see the behavior of the electricity. with you sidcell type you cannot see if the middle 10 plates are conduct but there must be a way to physically view it.
kissmyhho 3 years ago
if the voltage is to low between gaps it will it will automatically go ok i cannot go that way through the plates so i will just go straight through the electolite and be really in effecient. i have found that around about 5 gaps seem easy for it .
maybe experiment with this to see if mmw goes up.
i am at around 5.5 with my sid cell style first up and now will try different config.
cheers scarecrow and ebn.
you are all exciting great minds.
regards andy from oz
kissmyhho 3 years ago
what I have found is that in larger devices, with 50 or more plates, a wider plate gap works better at getting fluid in and gas out ... I like 2mm ...
I have also found that it helps a lot to have multiple points where fluid goes in and gas comes out so things dont get clogged ... think you were running dry in the middle ... not enough fluid getting in there ...
My monster device is normally configured with between 65 and 101 plates ... 3 x 1/2" ports in, 3x1/2" ports out ... works great
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
gday mate
i did a test with 60 plates seperated by 1mm and tried to run 110v through it but to my suprise it did not allow hho production from the middle 50 plates. hmm i thought electricity is lazy and will travel the path of least resistance .,
ok so it became apparernt the it is physically impractical so i tried 5 spaces with 7 plates 5n and enough seperate cells in series to add to 110v all in seperate solution and wammo. perfect production.
see next message!
kissmyhho 3 years ago
Hi Scarecrow.
Enjoying your progress, did you know that NASA did some research on Hydrogen assisted multicyclinder piston engines back in 1977. They even used the exhaust heat to hydrogen enrich a mixture of Methanol through a steam reformer, very similar to a GEET type system.
Google
" EMISSIONS AND TOTAL ENERGY CONSUMPTION OF A MULTICYLINDER PISTON ENGINE RUNNING ON GASOLINE AND A HYDROGEN-GASOLINE MIXTURE "
to view PDF document. System was found to reduce emmissions & increase economy.
ChrisPCrunchy 3 years ago
the timing on a gasoline i.c.e. is slower than it needs to be to run on hho. Since hho burns around 2.5Xs faster than gasoline the timing needs to be advanced. I am not an expert, just trying to give some advice. If someone knows different please tell me so I can learn.
robunreal 3 years ago
at some point I may find it desireable to retard the timing so it fires a little later than it fires now ... but I am trying a number of things to slow the burn rate of the HHO so this may not be needed ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
at tdc
misterhho 3 years ago
gasoline engines converted to run on pure hydrogen normally run better with timing set to TDC or even a little after TDC ... I am aware of this ... however, my experiments are focused on finding a mix of "moderators" that slows the burn rate of the HHO being used to see if it can made to burn in a way more similar to gasoline ... basically, I am trying to introduce octane if you will ... if I fail, I can always retard the timing ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Try to find a turbocharger for that engine to recirculate the exhaust. I think the Honda Z50 49cc motorcycle has a small aftermarket turbo system, so maybe you can locate something for a 3.5hp.
freedomorelse 3 years ago
its an idea we had thought of ... but there are some issues with exhaust from the engine when running HHO that we will discuss in future videos that might make a turbo less than usefull ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Do you think the waste spark from the engine had any effect on all the backfiring and the muffler / intake detonation?
Or have you done something about eliminating the waste spark? I know if your timing is still advanced (stock) then it technically shouldn't be an issue.
Great stuff, you and Zero are doing great work. Wish he would get his camera fixed, repaired or replaced.
TimeOverMatter 3 years ago
I am not so concerned about the waste spark issue ... I am not convinced its as big a boogie man as many think ... the reason for the back fires was over lean air/fuel mixture, plain and simple ... what I was doing was slowly stepping up HHO production at my device until I found the lowest amount of gas that permit the engine to run ... I found that at about 5-6 lpm ... once I was producing that volume, the engine started, ran well at idle, and no backfires ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Even if the waste spark isn't creating backfires, wouldn't it be wasting your hho by igniting it at the wrong time? I would imagine that up to 1/2 of the hho could be consumed by the waste spark thus reducing the efficiency greatly. I also like the idea of channeling the exhaust back into the system. There is probably some gas escaping during the exhaust stroke.
billb0169 3 years ago
You may be right, but at least on this engine, I see no evidence of any loss of HHO associated with the waste spark. This may be one of those things that are issues on some engines but not on others. We think that there may be considerable loss of HHO fuel to blow by at the piston rings. We are looking at tighter rings and exhaust recirculation.
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Crow you are exactly right on milling head on gen. and retard timing to bring piston as close to tDc. also need to think about getting HHO closer to cyl. intake as possible. Great Job
peticopower 3 years ago
I've been tracking your and others EBN, etc. progress for awhile. Interesting research.
I'm considering the viability of a small hho setup for my Harley (gas HOG-only 40 mpg), but am concerned about the minimal electrical output of MC charging systems. (of course then there's the dilemma of chrome plating a bubbler-but that's another matter...)
Any thoughts or suggestions, anyone?
Has anyone or others considered flashback suppressors for oxy/accetylene rigs?
2005FLSTCI 3 years ago
I would think that on a motorcycle, a very small device is all that would be required as a booster if that is where you are headed ... should not take much HHO to see some impact on an engine in the 1200cc range ...
you might target about 12v at about 5a ... a smallish but well designed device should be able to produce about 300ml per min of HHO with that modest input energy ... I think that should be enough for you to see some impact ...
oxy/accetylene suppressor is too slow for hho ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Question:
What would be the best plate dimension to use, 6, 8, 10 inches?
I'm running test on a 21 plates 12 inches...
Since i burned my car battery booster on it, i'm waiting on an Atx power supply to convert it and see new sets of results.
Thanks for sharing on my question,
Regards.
jujuanddup 3 years ago
4, 6, 8, 10, 12 inch plates will all work fine depending on what you plan to do with it and how you plan to power it ... I have seen some big HHO welders that use 24 inch plates ...
stainless steel is a poor conductor ... I have found that if you exceed 8" size, you best plan on making electrical connection at opposite corners at least ... as plate size increases, the device can absorb more amps and thus make more gas ... requires more power though ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Did you grow those tomatoes on hho?
I had a flashback in a 50 cal. ammo box. and it managed to withstand the blast, however it did not open and close afterwards.
shamansays 3 years ago
tomatoes are 100% organic ... yeah, its pretty scary what even a small quantity of this gas can do when confined in a tight space or put under pressure ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
I'm a little puzzled as to how you got enough HHO gas into the muffler to blow it apart. I must have missed that video. ;-)
Great video, nice work.
lutherp40 3 years ago
it happened at the same point where the air cleaner blew off the front of the thing ... I was feeding massive quantities of gas into the engine getting ready to run the genny at full tilt so I could light up the darn shop lamp ... not as easy to do as you might think ... somehow, managed to accumulate gas in both the intake and exhaust ... big badda booooom ... same one took out the intake and the exhaust ... did not notice the damage to exhause until a bit later when its guts fell out ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
That explains it. I had it in my mind that it was damaged from separate events. It did not dawn on me that it was the same event.
lutherp40 3 years ago
lol just glad your safe.
thasickest 3 years ago
the plain and simple fact is that what I am doing here is dangerous ... there is the potential for personal injury and property damage ...
if anyone plans on following this project, and I hope some will, you gotta take responsibility for your actions and keep your head about you ... you will be playing with rocket fuel ... as soon as you get distracted or lazy, it will bite you in the ass HARD ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Great work but be careful running w/o a muffler. ice prefer a little back pressure and w/o muffler you will have a tendency to burn your exhaust valves.
jimodrap 3 years ago
I am aware that this ... and have something in mind that should solve the problem in the near term ... dont think will run it more than maybe another 8-10 hours without something providing back pressure ... just have not decided quite yet what that might be ... suspect will turn out to be a pretty strange looking piece of custom plumbing ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Looking good, did I hear you correctly- 6000ml at 1000w = 6mmw, and then- 9000ml at 2000w = 4.5mmw. Did you just add more electrolyte to bring up the Watts? Or something else?
Thanks, keep up the great work.
markj30 3 years ago
you are correct ... when I run my electrolyser at fairly tame settings, I get pretty decent mmw's, normally into the high 5's just under 6 ... but when I crank it up for all its got, I make lots of gas, but the mmw is in the toilet, often dropping into the low 4's ... adjustments are done using voltage at the variac and increased KOH in the soup ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
nice fruit..i see you are vegetarian
dreamyear 3 years ago
I am not a hard core vegetarian ... I enjoy a good piece of meat from time to time ... but my diet is more Asian than American ... meat for me is a supplement taken in modest quantities ... I enjoy good Burbon, a cold beer and the occational cigar also ... all things in moderation ...
gardening is just another of my hobbies ... one of the more practical I might add ... there's not many things more satisfying than eating food you grew yourself ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Nice Job! I have had to run my 3.0hp generator today to charge my car batter, this normally will take 4 hours of charging at 3/4th a gallon of fuel, well I connected the hho at 2LPM into intake, and after 4hrs I only used 1/2 a gallon, when I had the load on the engine I did not hear it until I removed the HHO. Also My 115 plates are being drilled by a professional and I am cutting the gaskets now, thanks for the help!
gerriburn 3 years ago
you mention an experimental path that needs to be followed ... there are a few of us working hard to document methods required to get a small engine to run well on 100% HHO ... this needs to be done ... but I am not aware of anyone right now documenting the practicality of using HHO boost on a generator to extend run times ... I have played a little with this, but it needs investigation ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
hi there
i may do this experiment for my first installment and contribution to our cause.
i intend on using say 50ml of fuel and timing it twice and then using my car charger running of the generator to run my cell with the output to the air intake. if you agree with this method please email me an ok and any other sugestion.
regards andy from oz
kissmyhho 3 years ago
the idea of using an electrolyzer as a booster on a generator is an interesting one ... I have heard of a couple folks who were going to give it a go, but never got any hard facts or results back ... so if you think you can do it safely, please do and let us know your results ...
mythinking is that if the generator can produce 10a, see about using 2a of that to run a booster ... determine if the booster is efficient based on draw/run time ... valuable data to be obtained ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Good Job on all your progress.
ChrisLizzy4 3 years ago
I already got all the really good ones for today ... ate one of 'em fresh off the vine right after the photo shoot ... tastey ... that other one is for tomarrow ... squash is pretty much played out at this point though ... shame ... I really love sauted squash in butter with a bit of garlic ...
hey, you think all I do is run engines on water ??? man's gotta eat !!!
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Well, I wish I was closer to your neck of the woods. Welding a flange to accept a muffler really wouldnt be too difficult. The muffler I got on my bubbler came from Tractor supply for $7, screwed right on a pipe nipple. Would really be a matter of just welding the nipple to the flange...
pat1huey 3 years ago
hehehe ... carefull Pat ... I am looking for a sucker, 'er, a good sport to construct an air tight bubbler type gizmo for me with about three inlets (exhaust, crank case, HHO feed) and one outlet (HHO/steam/exhaust mix) along with a bullet proof blow out port ... if you get a little too much hydrogen in that right hand of yours, its liable to raise up like you is a volunteer ... LOL ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Great video man , you Ebn guys keep up the work.
I am looking forward to doing some experimenting myself,going to build my 1st drycell 31p 6x6 4n6, I am excited.Got my steel yesterday waiting on my gasket material, and cutting board for my ends...
jdcmusicman 3 years ago
go for it ... think the guy on eBay that I got the generator from still has few if you are interested ... but talk to d3adp001 about using the 6" plate electrolyser ... you might not be able to get them to draw enough amps for this application ... think he is talking about setting up his 8" devices to try to catch up to me ... the 8" plate provides the surface area to permit higher amperage and thus more production ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago
Wonder if it's still under warranty? Nice work SSC...
dlwammo 3 years ago
you may be onto something there ... this seems to me to be a pretty clear cut case of defects in workmanship ...
these guys surely knew that some American Yahoo was gonna try running their generator on rocket fuel so should have constructed it a good more sturdy ... they should be ashamed of themselves ...
actually, the way I have abused this poor thing, I think I would recommend this brand to anyone who wants a sturdy little gasoline generator ...
SmartScarecrow 3 years ago