It is pitiful that Mormons are trying to deny human rights to other Americans. In the past, it was blacks; now, it is gays. This is not just evil and wrong; it is foolhardy. As a non-Christian religion--Mormons have the Book of Mormon, as Muslims have the Koran--they would be one of the groups that would be subjected to discrimination if America were to be a Christian theocracy.
The Mormon church, also, strongly urges its members to contribute money to hate campaigns against gay Americans in order to deny them their full human rights and strip them of the ones that they currently have. This does not just involve donating to the loathsome Proposition 8 in California and other such referenda and legislation around the country. In addition, Mormons, at the behest of their church, wage an e-mail propaganda campaign designed to stir up hatred against gays.
To learn about a movie on the group that Mormons are now persecuting, watch the YouTube video:
"Have Mormons Learned? — ReThink Interview: Linda Stay & Fred Karger from 8: THE MORMON PROPOSITION" by jsjkim
Everyone concerned about human rights and freedom in America should watch "8: The Mormon Proposition." You can find the DVD on-line at Amazon, TLA Video and Deep Discount DVD. Buy it and watch it. To do even more good, after you watch it, donate it to your local library.
I just left the church after being an always active, life long, mission serving, member for 30 years +. I wanted to believe it was true also. The problem is, you can prove it false 10 different ways now that I opened my eyes. You can see some of those ways if you watch the video my family made after leaving. it is posted at the top of PerfectTheSaints org Or you can search for it on YouTube. It is called "Why Our Family Left the Mormon Church"
@ptyler3 Interesting because the reason I am still an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is because I opened my eyes and saw how much I would miss out on outside the gospel of Jesus Christ. People have been trying to "prove it false" ever since the beginning of time, and especially when Jesus Christ walked the earth. People thought by crucifying Christ, killing the Prophet Joseph Smith, they could get rid of the God's kingdom. Not so. It moves forward.
@DefendingMormonism I completely uderstand where you're coming from as I was in your situation all my life. It's very hard and sometimes impossible to even consider that your most sacred beliefs are not true. The sources I point out in the video are Church sources and are verifiable 100%. I hope you will muster the courage to watch the video our family made, as it is done very respectfully. The active membership of the church has declined all but one year since 2002.
Brigham Young was most definitely a racist. He admits as much is his own words. This is not hearsay, not the words so someone else ascribed to Young, these are his own words. The man was a racist.
However, I'm not entirely sure Joseph Smith Jr was a racist, in fact I have strong reason to believe otherwise. So for any racism to exist in the Moromon Church, it would have to be the work of heretics.
This video seeks to justify its stand of Mormons intermingling with other races by stating the Ammonites and Moabites were forbidden from entering the temple. Every biblical reference used in this video to justify Mormons seperating from other races is misconstrued. The only reason Israelites were forbidden to mingle or marry those from other nations was because their belief in false gods. Not because of their race. Any intelligent person can discern the hypocrisy of the Mormon Church.
First of all, there is much untruth in this video.Much of this video contradicts the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon declares that people of darker complexions were not as righteous as those with lighter skins.The Book of Mormon is obsessed with the whiteness of people. Which it considers "a delightsome people." While this same book declares darker skin people as "loathsome." Though it has many scriptures from the Holy Bible, it is a false book written by a false prophet!
@fhall1106 "In spite of its frank documentation of racist feeling, the Book of Mormon is not in itself a racist document. In fact, it advocates and even idealizes the exact opposite: rather than promoting concepts of racial inferiority, the events and teachings within it clearly suggest that people of different ethnic backgrounds and traditions can truly overcome old hatreds and misconceptions and attain peace, happiness, and unity through the gospel of Jesus Christ." -- John A. Tvedtnes
@DefendingMormonism "In reply to the book of Mormon (frank documentation of racist feeling), the truth of the matter is the book of Mormon is a racist documentation (PERIOD).It teaches that darker skin is a curse. This is a false statement which is never recorded in the Holy Bible. The Bible teaches that God is no respecter of persons unlike the book of Mormon. Anyone who adheres to this book has to be racist or spiritually blind. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch!
@DefendingMormonism Racist feelings? Obviously the racist feelings of Joseph Smith. Why are the racist doctrines taught by Joseph Smith still in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine & Covenants? Why were African Americans not allowed into the priesthood until 1970? Why do your leaders teach that the skin of American Indians will become white when they convert to Mormonism? Research it for yourself and find out what Mormonism really teaches.
The founder of LDS taught that the moon was inhabited by beings that dressed something like the quaker style and live to about 1000 years of age. This teaching can be found in a LDS early publication, "The Young Woman's Journal Vol3 pg263-264.
@squashpianoman left out part of the quote. If you read the entire thing (hint-hint), you discover that Brigham Young was poking fun at the scientists of the day, charging that they didn't know as much as they claimed to know. He went on to speculate that there could be Quaker's on the moon...etc., for all the scientists knew. Typical anti-Mormon tactic of pruning a quote to give it an entirely different meaning.
whites dont like blacks so what? no need to be a mormon to realize that ...just read the comments in porn sites about interracial sex..very interesting and very,very funny lol.
@firewings12 The LDS church IS NOT racist, we don't believe that black skin is a curse, we believe, as the BofM teaches that blacks and whites are equal, the Book of Mormon condemns slavery.
But as for the OT,
(Exodus 21:20-21): "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property"
@TheSkepticChristian If you google "letter from first presidency lds july 17 1947" and go to first link you will see a letter stating "...that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel. " This is a letter from one of your leaders!
@TheSkepticChristian Furthermore, the 1958 edition of your doctrine was removed from publication in 2010 due to racism and its erroneous stance against the RC Church. I quote, "Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them...Negroes are not equal with other races where receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..."
@firewings12 Holy Smokes, Firewings! What rock have you been living under? There is no race issue in the LDS church. Blacks are serving in leadership positions in the church and have been doing so for years now. Several years ago, I had an Elders Quorum president who was black, and a good man, too. The church has black bishops, black Relief Society presidents, etc. You, m'man, need to do your homework before posting things on these sites that simply are not true. (Just a suggestion.)
@JediMormon Yes there are many and if you don't see it, you are truely blind! Why did it take so long before other races were deem worthy to hold the Mormon's version of the Priesthood? How long have U been a Member? I should do my homework, you don't even know the names of the people to whom you are making reference to. U obviously don't know much of the history of the church and that is the sad thing about most LDS Members, U should do some research.
I only have one question, why isn't there any other race in the 12 nor in the the first presidency? Just a quesion, I mean your mormon gods are no repector of men are they? The real reason is that the Mormon cult is very Racist, I know fist hand, because I was a member and not white, I was not accepted my the white members, but instead I was hated!
@firewings12 Hated? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. In all my years in the church, I've never witnessed even one incident of hate by white members towards a black-skinned member. Perhaps there are isolated incidences, but I've never seen them.
@JediMormon So what are you trying, only whites and blacks make up that mormon cult?? You're totally off the topic of what I was talking about, look in all the years that this cult have been around why has all the so called "prophets" only been white rich male members are selected to become your "prophets"! So is the Mormon cult is saying that no other race R pure enough to be so called to the position of our prophets?
@firewings12 You know not of what you speak. God chooses who becomes an apostle, not men. Leaving the church was your business, and you obviously do not understand what is involved with becoming a general authority of the church. It's not a matter of just deciding "hey, here's this guy who belongs to a certain ethnic race...let's make him an apostle...". Doesn't work that way in the church and never has. Best for you to leave the decision up to those who know what's going on.
@chadro85 Mormonism is not Christianity at all! I give credit to those Mormon, they do put up a good front acting like they are Christian that they really care for their members, but like I said it's all a front. Just do a search on google or yahoo or bing on the name Joseph Smith, You will find that Mormonism is not in any form or part of Christianity but they are a Cult! God DAM Mormons Ruined the my Faith In Christ Jesus!
@firewings12 um i'm not trying to offended you really but. i was'nt trying to say mormons are the same as christians. i'm just saying mormons are'nt racist (or they should'nt be anyways)
MORMONTHINK.COMhhu. And it's not Jesus Christ's church. It's joseph smith's church. I have attended with mormon friends on several occasions and have seen first hand the worship of "the man" and the exalting of the book of mormon over THE BIBLE and the blatant misrepresentation of the church history. FACTS ARE FACTS
@GlowingMpd ... Ahhh..."The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". Were you sleeping during the meetings? In our Sunday School, we spent just as much time studying the Old and New Testaments as we did the Book of Mormon. "worship of 'the man'"? Now, that's one accusation I'd like proof of! We honor Joseph Smith as a prophet, just as we honor those prophets who came after him. Worship also implies that we prayed to them, which would be totally false. You need to clarify that statement.
Marie Osmond blocked someone on Twitter when they asked if she had any Girlfriends other than white ones. What kinda crap is that? Can we say "RACIST"?
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." - Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
One of the fastest growing with the worst retention. The membership on paper is much different than those who attend. Don't be fooled.
Racist?
"And if any man mingle his seed with the seed of Cain the only way he could get rid of it or have Salvation would be to come forward and have his head cut off and spill his blood upon the ground- it would also take the life of his children."
@Kryteris................retention....the requirements to be a Mormon are strict, because we live to be worthy of entering in to one of our many Temples.......dont contend with Mormon facts and figures etc....use your time wisely, you may not have much time on earth, and would be ashame to waste it trying to prove things wrong...
The following accounts are bots a 1 man army with many accounts llegalPlayer, TommyHarbuckle, DefendinMormomism, theywant2hideitfromu and many many more. This one person is the sloppiest person I have seen on YouTube. My hunch is user IExposeMormonism. We will see very soon.
check the video "Blacks Called NIGGERS By Mormon Joseph Smith" to show what was really said. You can but try to rationalise and justify this...but its all written down!
Guess you left out the part where Brigham Young DEFENDED slavery. Also you left out the little caveat was the possibility of loosing tax exempt status. (see Bob Jones vs IRS) for practicing segregation. So you don't think that describing native Americans as "savage, lazy" to the point where it wasn't THEY who built the temples in the Americas, but white "Jews" isn't racist?
Native Americans were NOT described as being savage, lazy etc. And who said anything about pyramids? LOL! It was one individual (thousands of years ago) describing how others had changed after they'd stopped living "in the ways of their fathers". Try reading the text yourself. Also, racial segregation was never practiced in Utah. There were no "whites only" meeting houses or drinking fountains or schools. Incidently, women still can't hold the priesthood nor can men have kids.
@deboradec3160 Maybe YOU should try reading it 2 Nephi 5:23 "And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey." And I guess you didn't know that Utah until 1963, had a a law preventing whites from marrying blacks- even one quarter, not content with that they through in "Mongolian: (Asian) or Malay (Philipino) (Utah Code, 40-1-2, C. L. 17, §2967)
Both government and atheism have slaughtered MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people throughout history making them more dangerous than any religious cult in the history of this earth. However, I do not hear you calling for the abolition of either of those just the abolition of people who actually do provide the world with food, hospitals, amnesty, tolerance, abolition of slavery and the root of philanthropy. You are intolerant!
@ChristianVoice08 If I save one man, but kill three, that does not make me good. Also if I save one man but with the condition that he acknowledge my faith, than it is done out of selfishness, not good. And you don't need religion to acomplish good deeds, one does not need to be religious in order to be MORAL. We could go back to the conquest of Canaan where the Israelites were commanded to slaughter entire populations (but keep the little virgins for themsleves!) and throughout history.
FALSE. You start out true then make non-sequitirs! It don't follow & you're all over the place. Make an argument with numbered premises, please.
You are not arguing my position but a strawman. I never made those claims. I don't even know to what you are posting. Be clear, number your premises and state a valid conclusion, please.
@ChristianVoice08 How clearer can I be? You argue that religion does good, I counter by saying just because I save one does not excuse the five I kill. I start with the beginning- the Israelite conquest of Canaan in which Moses commanded the men to kill everybody but keep the virgin girls for themselves. Slavery was not abolished by religion, rather excused by religion- Brigham Young was FOR slavery. Religion destroyed the scientific works of the ancients as heresy, keeping us in the Dark Ages.
I did not claim RELIGION was good. I stated a fact, Christian theism HAS BEEN GOOD to the world! The Canaanites were executed BY GOD BY HIS JUDGMENT! According to your false argument, the executioner of your state is a murderer and not simply the person charged with executing the judgment of the people against evil! And I will not answer the false claim that God authorized rape. Anyone who reads the Bible can see the truth for themselves. God did not ordain slavery.
@ChristianVoice08 Did Moses not speak for God? Did he not set down rules selling YOUR OWN DAUGHTER into slavery? Did he not say, "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (wonder what for?)" Numbers 31:17-18
So those women and children deserved death because "GOD" said it was okay? Hitler said the same thing about Jews.
God gave life, God can take it back! HE OWNS EVERYTHING! You are the one with the contradiction comparing a creature, Hitler, who had NO ownership of life to God Who owns it. Ergo, he STOLE life while God cannot murder. He can judge anyone at any time and punish them ANYWAY HE SEES FIT WITHOUT CONTRADICTION OR SIN! I don't know what your problem is. But, pick a subject, make an argument WITH NUMBERED PREMISES and start making sense. Otherwise, you sound like a madman!
@ChristianVoice08 God didn't take the lives of those women and children- men did. A man said it was god's will. If God wanted them dead, he has shown through the plaques, Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood that he's capable of doing it himself. HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THE RAPE OF LITTLE GIRLS AND THE MURDER OF LITTLE BOYS BY SAYING IT WAS "GOD'S WILL"?!!! That is repugnant! What sin did a two year old boy commit? What did a two year old girl do to deserve being raped by an Israelite?
Again, are you STUPID? I showed the ensample of the executioner. MOSES SPOKE FOR GOD (YOUR WORDS) AND GOD NOT MOSES commanded the execution. If you had actually read the whole Old Testament you would have know the truth and not misrepresented the Word.
God used the Israelites to give TIME FOR REPENTANCE. You know nothing of history. I WILL EXPLAIN!
City states were all that existed at that time in history. Each had their own god such as dagon. Each fought against other states with the claim that the victor's god was the stronger of the gods. As testified by Rahab the hooker, Israel's God had so destroyed city states that word had spread ahead of their coming. They knew that YaHWeH was the True God. He was demonstrating intolerance of idolatry (jealous God). THEY HAD TIME TO REPENT, BUT THEY CHOSE TO FIGHT HIM!
@ChristianVoice08 Rahab was Joshua, the Midianites were during Moses time. Too bad I'm so stupid and know nothing about the bible. So you are saying that a people who knew NOTHING of Yahweh, were to be slaughtered, even children, except for the little girls which the men were allowed to keep for themselves, this is fine with you. Meanwhile the chosen of god can erect idols in Solomon's temple and even use it as living quarters for male prostitutes! Yup sounds like a just and loving god to me.
Didn't say that. Do you put words in all the mouths of those who refute you or just me? They spent 40 years in the wilderness on top of the travel time to arrive there. Your claims are vapid and false. You don't want to debate things honestly. You only want to rant. Maybe one day you will desire to be set free of your god. But, I have no more time for luciferian vitriol! Fare well.
@ChristianVoice08 Debate what? You stated the people I quoted about in Numbers were warned- you gave a name. However you were mistaken, Rahab was during Joshua's time, not Moses. You excuse rape of children and infanticide as god's will yet it is I WHO IS EVIL? I quoted scripture, you go off on tangents, when cornered you say it's "god's will" so I countered by saying why would god punish a people who couldn't know him, yet not punish those who set idols and male prostitutes in the temple?
Fighting the Hebrews at that point was fighting YHWH HIMSELF! So all who refused to make peace and worship their God were ANTI-CHRIST and God judged them each time and ordered them executed.
I ask you this, would you complain this much if God just slew you with a bolt of lightning and did not permit you this opportunity of repentance? Are you so arrogant that you tempt God when He gives you this opportunity and extra time for repentance? Do you want MERCY OR JUSTICE???
@ChristianVoice08 God didn't slay them with lightning bolts. Men killed babes just born, raped small girls. Women killed clutching their children. THIS IS JUSTICE? All for not worshipping a god they KNEW NOTHING ABOUT!!? You don't see a PROBLEM WITH THIS? AGAIN what is the difference between Hitler and Moses? Both massacred people and both said it was in the name of god. Maybe god WAS on Hitler's side- why did he not come to the aid of six million Jews?
The Jews rejected Jesus, YHWH come in flesh. Nevertheless, for every Jew slain, about 1.5 Christians were slaughtered too. God warned this was coming and people ignored Him. His goal is not for us to live here permanently in sin. Once He destroys sin, then, we get a permanent dwelling without death, corruption or sin.
Again, He has given 2000+ years for repentance and you hate Him for His mercy. It doesn't escape me that you avoided the real questions I posed! John 3:17-22
@ChristianVoice08 You didn't post any "questions". I don't hate Yahweh, son of El and Ashtera, one of the Elohim or gods of southern Canann anymore than I hate Zeus or Osiris. Yes god warned, and people keep going. Just as they have for 100,000 years. Who slaughtered Christians to the tune of 9,000,000BTW? Are you saying Adolph Hitler was a tool of God? yea, and I'm the one you hates. You've justified genocide, infanticide, rape and the holocaust- and have the gall to say I'm the one who's evil!
BTW, I am sorry you got screwed by the LDS. But, MOSES HAD AN ETHIOPIAN WIFE! And when Miriam and Aaron spoke against him for it, God struck them with leprosy. GOD NEVER SUPPORTED HATRED! He says that hatred is MURDER (as He knows it ALWAYS leads to murder). That is why He, Jesus, said, "Love thy neighbor as thy self", NOT as they should. He knew man would lie & justify his mistreatment of others. God has always demonstrate mercy, patience & love even in judgment.
@ChristianVoice08 God never supported hatred? What do you call genocide? You ought to CAREFULLy read you're Old Testament (or Tanakh) and tell me again. "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:27. Yea I really feel the love here.
False! I have not known any Mormons to mistreat people in my lifetime because of the color of their skin! My Mormon friends and school mates never complained of any mistreatment for being girls either! Further even the Christian Church DOES NOT have a bad track record with discrimination against women or blacks. To say otherwise is a boldfaced lie. Lastly, your claim against religion is biased and intolerant. We cannot be blamed for those who do evil in the name of good!
@ChristianVoice08 I was raised Mormon, went to seminary, I remember when a black family left because their children couldn't go to Scouts.
I would think being FOR SLAVERY is a BAD track record. I would think making it ILLEGAL to marry a black person, or Chinese or Philipino is a BAD TRACK RECORD (only corrected in 1963). If Yahweh speaks through the prophet, why would he say such things?
THERE'S the rub- "It's not OUR fault, GOD commanded it" NO you SAID God commanded it. BIG DIFFERENCE!!
Christianity was NOT the endorser of slavery. Now you are resorting to slander in order to avoid admitting that prophets of the Mormon church WERE WRONG in the past. Just because they confused the curse of Cain with the Curse of Ham and tried to make it about black skin, it says nothing of Christians. it means they made the same mistake many slavers did by demeaning them based on a false claim using misinterpretation & misapplication of the Bible to cover the racist propaganda.
@ChristianVoice08 It is not slander, you admit it was a mistake to confuse it. The difference is the PROPHET Brigham Young stated it as a fact from God, slavers did it for a profit. Also the Mormon church REFUSED to acknowledge their mistake until the possibility their tax exempt status would come under review. I am not resorting to propaganda, it is all true and easily backed up.
@ChristianVoice08 Is it slander to say it was illegal in Utah until 1963 to marry a black or Asian? I ask you YES or NO...IS THAT SLANDER? ooh let me guess... it was God's will. God does not make the laws in Utah, otherwise they would be perfect from the start. MAN does.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I'M NOT MORMON! Polygamy was tolerated for a while in ancient times to keep blood lines going. It was not God's will or intent. Brigham capitulated when Washington said, no polygamy or no statehood. But, they did not care whether they violated people's right to marry whomever they please. Further, government has NO authority to regulate marriage as it is a religious institution not a civil one.
@ChristianVoice08 Never said you were, I am not talking about polygamy, I am talking about the State of Utah making it illegal for a caucasian to marry an African or Asian. This was in affect until 1963. That doesn't strike you as racist? And polygamy had nothing to do with "blood lines" but a taste for young women. When a newspaper printed some interesting facts about the women (more like girls) that the Mormon leaders were marrying (some adulterous) the paper was burnt to the ground.
@ConstantSurprises Mormons are Christians... We are The Church of Jesus Christ of Later-Day Saint, we believe in Christ, we rejoyce in Christ, and we trust in Christ. Our actual denomination doesn't matter at this time, Christ is each of our Savior and loves each of us, so why are we fighting over this? God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are real and love us, why can't we love each other? There's only one way to eternity in His arms. Maybe each of us need to correct the mote in our own eye first.
And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him declared in the presence of all the people for what cause she touched him, and how she was healed immediately. And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Oh please this is bull crap. Did any of the OT prophets have to deny former words because of limited understanding? A PROPHETS WORDS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GODS SO IF YOU ARE SAYING THAT PROPHETS OF GOD HAD LIMITED UNDERSTANDING WHEN THEY SPOKE, YOU ARE MALIGNING THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE. HE DOES NOT CHANGE HIS MIND.
@ficklestyx Maligning the God of the Universe? I think not. Mormons simply have a correct understanding of Prophets. They are not perfect. Read the OT and you'll quickly discover that truth. Remember Moses walking around in the desert for 40 years? Remember Jonah and the whale? They got into those situations because they were very IMPERFECT and unfortunately did not always do as God commanded them. You appear to be looking for a reason to criticize Mormons, so your reaction is not surprising.
NO! NONE of the OT PROPHETS EVER GOT A PROPHECY WRONG!!! The OT says that if a prophet prophesies something and it does not come to pass, they are not YaHWeH God's prophet and are to be stoned. Unlike LDS prophets, we Christians do not move from lesser light to lesser light. We have the inerrant and perfect Word of God where every Biblical prophet has been SPOT ON even over thousands of years. It's not hard to defend our forebears. But, better to stand for God than men.
@ChristianVoice08 First of all, so-called Bible "inerrancy" is a modern day Christian belief -- a corrupt one at that -- and to assume that every single prophecy of every single prophet to ever exist is in fact included in our modern-day version of the compiled library of scriptures (the Bible) passed down from generation to generation is naive. Yes, it is a popular belief among many Christians, but most definitely a false doctrine. God's words continue to be revealed through living Prophets.
1 FALSE - God Himself said that his word would not pass away (not one jot or tittle) until ALL WAS FULFILLED! That's inerrancy since He claimed it was God-breathed, perfect and true as He cannot lie.
2 FALSE - As Joseph Smith continued from the beginning to claim a restoration and continuation of the original Gospel of God, then, his prophecy must align perfectly with the Bible. You cannot move from error to error, darkeness to light.
CONT Ergo if the Bible has errors, Mormonism is FALSE given a false set of premises as its foundation. No prophet in the Bible was ever shown to be false in prophecy. God explicitly said that a prophet who was false in his prophetic utterance WAS NOT OF GOD & was to be executed!
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Also in Deuteronomy 28 YaHWeH says that you are not to follow other gods. He says in Isaiah that He IS THE ONLY GOD and He knows of NO OTHER GOD! So, if the Bible in its oldest books are wrong, then, Joseph Smith is wrong as he claimed it his foundation. You either have a true Bible or you have nothing. All of Joseph's claims rest upon the inerrancy of the Bible! It's an all or nothing deal. You can't have a true conclusion from a false premise.
@DefendingMormonism Hello there who ever you are. I hope you are aware that a clone account of your same name is on YouTube as we speak that is giving your faith a bad name. Allowing such behavior might make me believe you might have somthing to do with it. If not I would get on this right away.
Is this video a joke? We don't know why the ban existed? It's not a mystery. Try looking for 5 minutes. The early church leaders explained in GREAT DETAIL all the WHYs. Are you stupid? Cain killed abel, etc., etc.
@JohnAColtharp The childish name-calling is self-serving and only makes you look foolish. Early church leaders had a lot of SPECULATION about the priesthood ban. There were a myriad of reasons created for it, though we know now that they were wrong, and unfortunately the church's image suffers because of their faulty opinions. Learning how to not emotionalize your comments will help you make your case. Thanks.
@DefendingMormonism Mr. Coltharp is actually correct in his assertions. There is no mystery as to why these things happened and, if one would "delve into this topic" without a preconceived conclusion, the references are easy to find. To openly portray that the priesthood ban as a "mystery" or that the reasons for it are "only known to God", is irresponsible to the highest degree and displays a true lack of research and understanding.
@mattbeachum The only preconceived conclusion about this topic is that Mormons are "racist." Many ex-Mormons, anti-Mormons and Christians (ironically) use the "racism" card as a pretense for bashing Mormonism. An extremely superficial study focused on non-authoritative sources (including the Journal of Discourses) would obviously bring up allegedly incriminating statements. The whole point is that these statements were SPECULATION to justify the ban. Rid yourself of biased assumptions.
@DefendingMormonism You label it speculation, but they sounded very sure of themselves, and spoke as if it were truth revealed from heaven. Your statement that "we know now that they were wrong" is completely false. I don't know any such thing, and neither do you. You choose modern "speculation" in preference to earlier viewpoints. There isn't absolute proof in favor of either. According to my own research, the evidence strongly leans in favor of the earlier brethren.
@DefendingMormonism You label it speculation, but they sounded very sure of themselves, and spoke as if it were truth revealed from heaven. Your statement that "we know now that they were wrong" is completely false. I don't know any such thing, and neither do you. You choose modern "speculation" in preference to earlier viewpoints. There isn't absolute proof in favor of either. According to my own research, the evidence strongly leans in favor of the earlier brethren.
@JohnAColtharp It doesn't matter HOW sure of themselves they sounded, it was still speculation. "spoke as if it were truth revealed from heaven"? Did any of them make that claim? Or are you merely tacking that on to add some weight to your argument? Your problem is that you are falling into the same trap a lot of anti-Mormonism folk fall into: presuming to dictate to us Mormons what we should, and should not, be believing.
@JediMormon Actually, Brigham Young said, "thus saith the Eternal I am" when speaking of the blacks not holding the Priesthood. That sounds pretty authoritative. In fact, I can't think of more authoritative language that could have been used. In the same discourse, he also said "I will say it now, in the name of Jesus Christ, I know it is true." (See The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, vol. 1, ed. by Richard S. Van Wagoner [Salt Lake City: The Smith-Pettit Foundation, 2009], pp. 468–47.)
@JohnAColtharp "thus saith the Eternal I am"..."I will say it now, in the name of Jesus Christ, I know it is true." If you are claiming that BY made those statements in reference to blacks not being able to hold the priesthood, all LDS knew that. As to WHY blacks could not hold the priesthood, any answer other than "we don't know other than the Lord forbid it", is nothing more than speculation; a best guess; a shot in the dark--or whatever.
@JediMormon Why is everything except actual revelations nothing but speculation? I don't recall "Thus Saith the Lord" when Joseph Smith taught that God was once a man, or that he had the first vision. Is the First Vision speculation? Is it speculation that God was once a man? In drawing the line that you have between speculation and revelation, if you truly stick to it, you'll eliminate a pretty significant portion of Mormonism's doctrines. You're kind of ridiculous.
@JohnAColtharp No slam against you, but most anti-Mormonism types, you included, have no idea what constitutes LDS doctrine or what it takes for a writing, speech, talk, etc., to become official LDS doctrine. Basically, there are only 5 sources of doctrine in the church: the four standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price), and when the first presidency--as a first presidency--publishes a statement on something. First presidency messages in the Ensign are a good example.
@cont...) Why blacks couldn't hold the priesthood is a good example of the type of speculation (or personal opinion, or whatever) I'm referring to. What that all boiled down to was that no mortal on earth knew why the Lord forbid it until 1978--not even the current or previous prophets of the church. I was working for my bishop on his dairy farm when the revelation was received. Growing up, I heard much speculation as to why blacks were being denied the priesthood, but that's all it was.
@JediMormon I'm not dictating to anyone what they should believe. Many people are not aware of the fact that these Prophets spoke upon this subject with such a level of authority. I'm simply trying to point that out. They clearly weren't just giving what they thought were their opinions.It's your choice whether or not you reject their words, and accuse them of giving false revelations and lying in the name of the Lord.
@DefendingMormonism I hope your only reason for taking the position you have isn't because it's what is currently believed by the general authorities. Just because something is spoken more recently doesn't mean it's more true. The chronological order of the expressions of opposing viewpoints should never be used to determine which side is right. Falsehood can just as easily follow revelation, as revelation can follow falsehood.
@JohnAColtharp, I think you totally misunderstood the video. In the case of the why's and wherefore's of blacks not being able to hold the priesthood, revelation from God always trumps the earlier speculation of man--and believe me, there was a LOT of speculation from members and leadership alike as to why this was so. You have never been LDS, so I don't expect you to understand, but that's the way it is.
@ConstantSurprises I think your misinterpreting "for reasons which we believe are known to God." That is NOT saying that the priesthood ban was instituted by God; it is merely saying that God knows why -- which very well could be because of the fault of the people in the church! If you are Christian, then you have no leg to stand on considering the horrid history of slavery justified by Christians! If you are also LDS, then you should delve into this topic more before jumping to conclusions.
Mormons are Christians... We are The Church of Jesus Christ of Later-Day Saint, we believe in Christ, we rejoyce in Christ, and we trust in Christ. Our actual denomination doesn't matter at this time, Christ is each of our Savior and loves each of us, so why are we fighting over this? God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are real and love us, why can't we love each other? There's only one way to eternity in His arms. Maybe each of us need to correct the mote in our own eye first.
Christians by definition believe and assert that Jesus, the Christ, is the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD Who created the universe and everything in it. We assert that He is YaHWeH (Elohim) come in the flesh and Who know lives in us with as the Holy Spirit Who is the One True God in Spirit.
Therefore, Mormons, if they truly believe the teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young cannot be Christians by any sense of the definition. I can claim to be black but that is obviously a false claim.
@ChristianVoice08 This of course depends on your own particular brand of Christianity -- of which there are thousands! Trying to push Mormons out of the "true" Christian circle only serves as more evidence that we espouse Jesus Christ's gospel as it was meant to be. Jesus Christ was never mainstream and he was never popular!!
FALSE! There is only one true doctrine of Christianity. There are thousands of congregations. Christianity as given by the Christ Himself is that He is God Incarnate, God is ONE GOD ALONE. There was no counsel of the gods & satan is a cherub cast down from heaven for blasphemy. He tempted Adam who sinned. God cursed creation. Jesus the Christ born of a virgin without sex died for our sins to pay the debt of justice. The Bible is His holy Word. THAT is Christianity!
Lastly, Jesus the Christ has been very popular among those of us who seek Him, who love God, who are the called according to His purpose. You deny the singular deity of Christ as the ONE TRUE GOD. You claim that you being a man can become like the Most High God and be a god. Therefore, you are teaching blasphemy that came from satan himself as the first temptation of man that led to sin. THIS IS ANTI-CHRIST by definition. You are not Christians.
We love you. But Paul told us to have NO ecumenical fellowship with any that claim the name of Jesus but teach another gospel. You do. That is heresy. You deny yourselves membership in the circle of Christianity. All you have to do is believe on the name of Jesus that HE IS THE ONE TRUE GOD and He will save you. Then you are a Christian. You will keep His commandments (His definition of your being a Christian) & you will have joy unspeakable.
Why let anyone shut up the gate of heaven to you by burdening you with ordinances and laws that god Himself said were the "commandments of men". Jesus said "my yoke is easy and my burden light". He loves us and made it simple, the free gift from Him to us without works on our part as we are not worthy of the love of God. We have sinned against Him. Were it not for giving His own blood, we would be unredeemable. His mercy endures forever. Praise Jesus my Love & my God.
I think you would be well served to review the Christian doctrines laid out by Christian churches before asserting to be one of us. Smith taught that the LDS were a "restored" church and that we Christian ministers are the hirelings of satan. But, if the original doctrines of Christianity are different than Smith's teachings, then, Mormons cannot be Christians even if their doctrines are true.
Christians are those monotheists called by the name of their God - Christ.
@GlowingMpd Care to expound on your blanket statement? Most people similarly decried Jesus as a "false" prophet and an "evil" person "possessed" by the Devil himself. Why would attack's against Jesus Christ's church and his followers in our day be any different?
@dorisfenella Any attempted answers to that question would be speculation at best. However, it is a fact that God is no respector of persons and loves all his children regardless of race. After all, he created the races! Besides, when it comes to skin, there are only shades of pigments -- all this talk of black vs white is man-made and divisive. We are all God's children and Mormons understand that doctrine better than most. Yes, our history is complicated, but we've come a long, long way.
"I believe we are in a golden age of Mormon history," Richard Bushman said, rattling off the sponsors for the symposium: Church History Department, Mormon Historic Sites Foundation, Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, Religious Studies Center, Springville Art Museum and Mormon Scholars Foundation.
Whats the first fastest growing church? Racism...well lets see it started with Jo Smith. How convient that the 'Ban' was lefted in the 70's when America was in a stewing pot on the subject and rascism was becoming taboo.Oh thats right it was a REVELATION! "Never mind what GOD told me a second ago..he changed his mind..now says this" Really?God is not as fickle as men.And the Bible never mentions denying any one do to their race. Therefore LDS and their changing views are probably not Christians.
@777Luluseven Most members today do not believe that the Priesthood ban was instituted by God -- in fact there is not documentation to shot that. It was likely a policy put in place by Brigham Young, for reasons we know not, but obviously during those times America was a completely different place, and most Christians in the South supported slavery! Mormons always welcomed blacks into their congregations. And blacks were never taught that they couldn't reach the highest heaven.
@DefendingMormonism Well unforunately for the LDS their history does not go back far enough where you can explain away doctrine brought about by views of men at the time. It just so happens that the very founders of your religion felt this way. Your religion wasn't corrupted by rasicts men over time...it was created by them. LDS no longer holding to that principle is not the point. You follow a religion that was born not of Gods will but of mens. The fact you have changed it...proves that.
@DefendingMormonism, I'm so tired of people like you saying "for reasons we know not." Really? I can find about 200 talks from the 1800s, where the brethren explain in great detail exactly why. Everyone today, including this video, and including you, keeps lying to the public, pretending we don't know why, to make it sound like it must have been nothing but a random racist policy without any justified reason.
@DefendingMormonism, I'm so tired of people like you saying "for reasons we know not." Really? I can find about 200 talks from the 1800s, where the brethren explain in great detail exactly why. Everyone today, including this video, and including you, keeps lying to the public, pretending we don't know why, to make it sound like it must have been nothing but a random racist policy without any justified reason.
If you look back at history and the political social norms of the 1700-1960 's there were a lot of biased attitudes , thoughts and treatment of people based on ones color of skin . If the LDS faith had been allowed to give blacks the priesthood they would have been more heavily persecuted then they all ready were . it wasn't until the civil rights movement that the social and political climates would be right for people to be able to accept blacks and other minorities as they should have been.
Once again, you've brought the Holy Spirit into the answers, and only the arrogant, the hateful and the liars will argue against this. Thanks again for all your work.
I can go on but I'm sure by now anyone reading is sick of me. Point is while other Christians were struggling and splitting just over the idea of worshiping with Black people the LDS church was embracing them and ordaining them. there was confusion regarding where the ban even came from and if was personal and not revelation. That's were we have the problem of mortals doing an immortals work. Regardless the LDS did a much better job of accepting blacks during a time that it wasn't popular. Amen
Confusion regarding the Priesthood ban: 1879: Abraham Smoot and Zebedee Coltrin Claim Joseph Smith Instituted the Priesthood Ban - highly doubtful as blacks were ordained priests while Joseph was alive. 1883: Elijah Abel Still Has the Priesthood. 1885: B.H. Roberts Speculates on the Origin of the Priesthood Ban (because of the POGP scriptures - controversial as well) 1900 Pres Snow not sure if Ban was revelation or personal which is understandable with all the LDS suffered through.
1846: William McCary Baptized and Ordained by Apostle Orson Hyde. 1851: Orson Hyde Makes Statement about Slavery. - This is where things start to take a turn! “The laws of the land recognize slavery, we do not wish to oppose the laws of the country.” So it's the non LDS law interfering with spiritual growth in the church. 1852: Slavery Made Legal in Utah. Civil war starts, 1866: First Ku Klux Klan formed (Some claim to be Christian) never brought up by critics. TBC..
To be fair to the Methodists 1843 there was a split in the church (over slavery). So basically some realized that slavery was wrong and formed a splinter group. Point is Mormons never had that problem - with Slavery - polygamy maybe (whole other issue) but not with worshiping with Blacks. 1844: Samuel Chambers Baptized by Preston Thomas - had to be done in secret because he was a slave - the Mormons had enough persecution. 1844: Walker Lewis Ordained an Elder.
1842: Smith Writes His Famous Letter about Slavery. 1843: Blacks have souls - sounds silly right? However this was an item that others didn’t necessarily believe. short quote by Joseph "Given an equal environment they would be on the same level as whites." So people of other sects saying Blacks didn't even have a soul but Mormons are racists because of a priesthood ban? How about the Methodists - the ministers had 1,500 slaves, and 25,000 members owned 208,000. - never mentioned by critics.
@Dalessiokiller Any Christian who accuses Mormons of "racism" is simply ignoring modern Christian history or using the accusation as an excuse for attacking Mormons because of an unhealthy and misguided hate.
@Dalessiokiller not true, read the other Christian writings. They preached all men had souls, The very words of Paul to the Romans were that neither king or slave would be rejected from the kingdom of heaven. Slavery was in the old testament ,but as a part of daily life. The slaves were just the lower class of people, their was no color hierarchy .
Mormons believe that blacks are descendents of Cain and that is why God turned their skin black. Changing history doesn't make it true.
@snowwolf7777 I didn't say all Christian sects believed it but there were some who did. I'd have to go through a lot of documentation because non Mormon racism is not as popular for some reason. That was the reason for my rant. So it is true, non Mormon Christians did much worse than the controversial seed of Cain doctrine and the so called priesthood ban. I did not change history. In fact I got the info from a black lds site. Peace to u and yours.
@Dalessiokiller I am faltered with your praises, but I can not find a christian sect that believes blacks don't have souls. except the FLDS. which i agree isn't apart of your beliefs. I don't like to uses bias sources in my research. Groups like the black lds are not going to admit the history of their church. no offense, but it will discredit the primary sources and real research.
@snowwolf7777 Fair enough but if I'm wrong on one - and I'm human so it's very possible - am I wrong on the rest? Kind of like 9 out of 10 isn't bad sort of thing. Ha ha. Please keep in mind that once again my rant was not to erase any wrong LDS leaders may have done but to put a stop to double standards. Good talking to you.
1836: Joseph Smith Slavery Editorial - read it. 1836: Elijah Abel Listed in the Messenger and Advocate. 1836: Elijah Abel Ordained a Seventy - so far so good right? To be fair - 1839: Catholic Church Opposes Slavery (FINALLY!) 1841: Baptists Argue that Slavery is Biblical! (there's evidence of all beliefs but how come the critic never mentions this!?) 1842: Joseph Smith Writes in His Personal Journal that Slaves Should be Set Free - he's said other dumb things too - we all have get over it.
Controversial 1833: Free People of Color Editorial Published by LDS church. "Free People of Color" was it's title. Pretty bold move while in Missouri. That was one of the leading factors in the expulsion of the Mormons. Because Missouri was a slave state. 1836: Elijah Abel Ordained an Elder - still not much happening in the other "Christian" branches as far as a unity goes. Don't get me wrong now - I'm not on some "Christian racism" crusade - Just showing both sides of the story.
Meanwhile in 1832: Elijah Abel was Baptized by Ezekiel Roberts. Elijah goes on to become the first black man to be given the priesthood in the LDS Church. This is all while these so called "non cult/ real Christians" can't even manage to worship with Blacks in the same building without problems (I'm sure I'll get threats for that one). So no persecution yet from "real Christians" and/ or Government - and no priesthood ban - anyone see where I'm going with this? I got more......
1816: American Colonization Society formed - Presbyterian - set up to help Blacks but they were so "openly racist" stating that Blacks couldn't adapt to a white society. Not directly related = 1831: Nat Turner’s Rebellion - You can do your own homework on this but in the end 15,000 whites put an end to a 60 man rebellion killing many innocent blacks along the way. I wonder what congragation those 15000 men belonged to - we'll never know because they weren't "Mormon"
It is pitiful that Mormons are trying to deny human rights to other Americans. In the past, it was blacks; now, it is gays. This is not just evil and wrong; it is foolhardy. As a non-Christian religion--Mormons have the Book of Mormon, as Muslims have the Koran--they would be one of the groups that would be subjected to discrimination if America were to be a Christian theocracy.
RCSVirginia 1 month ago in playlist More videos from DefendingMormonism
The Mormon church, also, strongly urges its members to contribute money to hate campaigns against gay Americans in order to deny them their full human rights and strip them of the ones that they currently have. This does not just involve donating to the loathsome Proposition 8 in California and other such referenda and legislation around the country. In addition, Mormons, at the behest of their church, wage an e-mail propaganda campaign designed to stir up hatred against gays.
RCSVirginia 1 month ago in playlist More videos from DefendingMormonism
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To learn about a movie on the group that Mormons are now persecuting, watch the YouTube video:
"Have Mormons Learned? — ReThink Interview: Linda Stay & Fred Karger from 8: THE MORMON PROPOSITION" by jsjkim
Everyone concerned about human rights and freedom in America should watch "8: The Mormon Proposition." You can find the DVD on-line at Amazon, TLA Video and Deep Discount DVD. Buy it and watch it. To do even more good, after you watch it, donate it to your local library.
RCSVirginia 1 month ago in playlist More videos from DefendingMormonism
@DefendingMormonism - Don't feed the trolls my friend! Your videos are fantastic - keep them coming. :)
MrMarklemore 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
I would not be surprised that some of the mormons are kkk
MrBigbear6718 1 month ago
I just left the church after being an always active, life long, mission serving, member for 30 years +. I wanted to believe it was true also. The problem is, you can prove it false 10 different ways now that I opened my eyes. You can see some of those ways if you watch the video my family made after leaving. it is posted at the top of PerfectTheSaints org Or you can search for it on YouTube. It is called "Why Our Family Left the Mormon Church"
ptyler3 1 month ago in playlist More videos from DefendingMormonism
@ptyler3 Interesting because the reason I am still an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is because I opened my eyes and saw how much I would miss out on outside the gospel of Jesus Christ. People have been trying to "prove it false" ever since the beginning of time, and especially when Jesus Christ walked the earth. People thought by crucifying Christ, killing the Prophet Joseph Smith, they could get rid of the God's kingdom. Not so. It moves forward.
DefendingMormonism 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@DefendingMormonism I completely uderstand where you're coming from as I was in your situation all my life. It's very hard and sometimes impossible to even consider that your most sacred beliefs are not true. The sources I point out in the video are Church sources and are verifiable 100%. I hope you will muster the courage to watch the video our family made, as it is done very respectfully. The active membership of the church has declined all but one year since 2002.
ptyler3 1 month ago
@ptyler3 If you want to you can probably "prove" anything false. However, you cannot deny the Spirit.
LDStothecore 1 month ago
Brigham Young was most definitely a racist. He admits as much is his own words. This is not hearsay, not the words so someone else ascribed to Young, these are his own words. The man was a racist.
However, I'm not entirely sure Joseph Smith Jr was a racist, in fact I have strong reason to believe otherwise. So for any racism to exist in the Moromon Church, it would have to be the work of heretics.
Synth3t1cs 2 months ago
This video seeks to justify its stand of Mormons intermingling with other races by stating the Ammonites and Moabites were forbidden from entering the temple. Every biblical reference used in this video to justify Mormons seperating from other races is misconstrued. The only reason Israelites were forbidden to mingle or marry those from other nations was because their belief in false gods. Not because of their race. Any intelligent person can discern the hypocrisy of the Mormon Church.
fhall1106 2 months ago
First of all, there is much untruth in this video.Much of this video contradicts the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon declares that people of darker complexions were not as righteous as those with lighter skins.The Book of Mormon is obsessed with the whiteness of people. Which it considers "a delightsome people." While this same book declares darker skin people as "loathsome." Though it has many scriptures from the Holy Bible, it is a false book written by a false prophet!
fhall1106 2 months ago
@fhall1106 "In spite of its frank documentation of racist feeling, the Book of Mormon is not in itself a racist document. In fact, it advocates and even idealizes the exact opposite: rather than promoting concepts of racial inferiority, the events and teachings within it clearly suggest that people of different ethnic backgrounds and traditions can truly overcome old hatreds and misconceptions and attain peace, happiness, and unity through the gospel of Jesus Christ." -- John A. Tvedtnes
DefendingMormonism 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@DefendingMormonism "In reply to the book of Mormon (frank documentation of racist feeling), the truth of the matter is the book of Mormon is a racist documentation (PERIOD).It teaches that darker skin is a curse. This is a false statement which is never recorded in the Holy Bible. The Bible teaches that God is no respecter of persons unlike the book of Mormon. Anyone who adheres to this book has to be racist or spiritually blind. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch!
fhall1106 1 month ago
@DefendingMormonism Racist feelings? Obviously the racist feelings of Joseph Smith. Why are the racist doctrines taught by Joseph Smith still in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine & Covenants? Why were African Americans not allowed into the priesthood until 1970? Why do your leaders teach that the skin of American Indians will become white when they convert to Mormonism? Research it for yourself and find out what Mormonism really teaches.
bubingajv 1 month ago
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JohnAColtharp 3 months ago
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true mormons are NOT racist
chadro85 4 months ago
The founder of LDS taught that the moon was inhabited by beings that dressed something like the quaker style and live to about 1000 years of age. This teaching can be found in a LDS early publication, "The Young Woman's Journal Vol3 pg263-264.
squashpianoman 5 months ago
@squashpianoman left out part of the quote. If you read the entire thing (hint-hint), you discover that Brigham Young was poking fun at the scientists of the day, charging that they didn't know as much as they claimed to know. He went on to speculate that there could be Quaker's on the moon...etc., for all the scientists knew. Typical anti-Mormon tactic of pruning a quote to give it an entirely different meaning.
JediMormon 4 months ago
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JediMormon 3 months ago
whites dont like blacks so what? no need to be a mormon to realize that ...just read the comments in porn sites about interracial sex..very interesting and very,very funny lol.
satyrisisxxx 5 months ago
Racism is a really big issue in this cult, I just wish people would open their eyes and see thie Fake Church for what it is really for!
firewings12 5 months ago
@firewings12 The LDS church IS NOT racist, we don't believe that black skin is a curse, we believe, as the BofM teaches that blacks and whites are equal, the Book of Mormon condemns slavery.
But as for the OT,
(Exodus 21:20-21): "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property"
TheSkepticChristian 5 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian If you google "letter from first presidency lds july 17 1947" and go to first link you will see a letter stating "...that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel. " This is a letter from one of your leaders!
squashpianoman 5 months ago
@TheSkepticChristian Furthermore, the 1958 edition of your doctrine was removed from publication in 2010 due to racism and its erroneous stance against the RC Church. I quote, "Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them...Negroes are not equal with other races where receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..."
squashpianoman 5 months ago
@firewings12 Holy Smokes, Firewings! What rock have you been living under? There is no race issue in the LDS church. Blacks are serving in leadership positions in the church and have been doing so for years now. Several years ago, I had an Elders Quorum president who was black, and a good man, too. The church has black bishops, black Relief Society presidents, etc. You, m'man, need to do your homework before posting things on these sites that simply are not true. (Just a suggestion.)
JediMormon 4 months ago
@JediMormon Yes there are many and if you don't see it, you are truely blind! Why did it take so long before other races were deem worthy to hold the Mormon's version of the Priesthood? How long have U been a Member? I should do my homework, you don't even know the names of the people to whom you are making reference to. U obviously don't know much of the history of the church and that is the sad thing about most LDS Members, U should do some research.
firewings12 4 months ago
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@firewings12 mormons are NOT racist
chadro85 4 months ago
I only have one question, why isn't there any other race in the 12 nor in the the first presidency? Just a quesion, I mean your mormon gods are no repector of men are they? The real reason is that the Mormon cult is very Racist, I know fist hand, because I was a member and not white, I was not accepted my the white members, but instead I was hated!
firewings12 5 months ago
@firewings12 Hated? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. In all my years in the church, I've never witnessed even one incident of hate by white members towards a black-skinned member. Perhaps there are isolated incidences, but I've never seen them.
JediMormon 4 months ago
@JediMormon So what are you trying, only whites and blacks make up that mormon cult?? You're totally off the topic of what I was talking about, look in all the years that this cult have been around why has all the so called "prophets" only been white rich male members are selected to become your "prophets"! So is the Mormon cult is saying that no other race R pure enough to be so called to the position of our prophets?
firewings12 4 months ago
@firewings12 You know not of what you speak. God chooses who becomes an apostle, not men. Leaving the church was your business, and you obviously do not understand what is involved with becoming a general authority of the church. It's not a matter of just deciding "hey, here's this guy who belongs to a certain ethnic race...let's make him an apostle...". Doesn't work that way in the church and never has. Best for you to leave the decision up to those who know what's going on.
JediMormon 4 months ago
@firewings12 well you just had a bad church then (or F lds) mormons should'nt be racist
chadro85 4 months ago
@chadro85 Mormonism is not Christianity at all! I give credit to those Mormon, they do put up a good front acting like they are Christian that they really care for their members, but like I said it's all a front. Just do a search on google or yahoo or bing on the name Joseph Smith, You will find that Mormonism is not in any form or part of Christianity but they are a Cult! God DAM Mormons Ruined the my Faith In Christ Jesus!
firewings12 4 months ago
@firewings12 um i'm not trying to offended you really but. i was'nt trying to say mormons are the same as christians. i'm just saying mormons are'nt racist (or they should'nt be anyways)
chadro85 4 months ago
So you guys who disliked this vide. What was wrong with it?
chrstilen5 5 months ago
@defendingmormomism
Yes.
MORMONTHINK.COMhhu. And it's not Jesus Christ's church. It's joseph smith's church. I have attended with mormon friends on several occasions and have seen first hand the worship of "the man" and the exalting of the book of mormon over THE BIBLE and the blatant misrepresentation of the church history. FACTS ARE FACTS
GlowingMpd 5 months ago
@GlowingMpd ... Ahhh..."The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". Were you sleeping during the meetings? In our Sunday School, we spent just as much time studying the Old and New Testaments as we did the Book of Mormon. "worship of 'the man'"? Now, that's one accusation I'd like proof of! We honor Joseph Smith as a prophet, just as we honor those prophets who came after him. Worship also implies that we prayed to them, which would be totally false. You need to clarify that statement.
JediMormon 4 months ago
Marie Osmond blocked someone on Twitter when they asked if she had any Girlfriends other than white ones. What kinda crap is that? Can we say "RACIST"?
Sulizon 6 months ago
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"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." - Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
yield269 6 months ago
This video was very well done.
love1another777 6 months ago
One of the fastest growing with the worst retention. The membership on paper is much different than those who attend. Don't be fooled.
Racist?
"And if any man mingle his seed with the seed of Cain the only way he could get rid of it or have Salvation would be to come forward and have his head cut off and spill his blood upon the ground- it would also take the life of his children."
(Wilford Woodruff Journal)
@mormonthinkDOTcom/blackweb.htm#racistcomments
Kryteris 7 months ago
@Kryteris................retention....the requirements to be a Mormon are strict, because we live to be worthy of entering in to one of our many Temples.......dont contend with Mormon facts and figures etc....use your time wisely, you may not have much time on earth, and would be ashame to waste it trying to prove things wrong...
PETSH0PB0YS1 6 months ago
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@Kryteris mormons are NOT racist
chadro85 4 months ago
The following accounts are bots a 1 man army with many accounts llegalPlayer, TommyHarbuckle, DefendinMormomism, theywant2hideitfromu and many many more. This one person is the sloppiest person I have seen on YouTube. My hunch is user IExposeMormonism. We will see very soon.
CleveRiot 7 months ago
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What about racism against OTHER people of color, like the Native Americans? What about that, Mormons?
xanablue 7 months ago
WOW they waited until 1978 to accept black people??? weird
dreammepr74 7 months ago
@dreammepr74
They were already accepted. They were never banned from the church itself. They weren't allowed to have the priesthood until the ban was lifted.
deboradec3160 7 months ago
check the video "Blacks Called NIGGERS By Mormon Joseph Smith" to show what was really said. You can but try to rationalise and justify this...but its all written down!
bongo46 7 months ago
Comment removed
dreammepr74 7 months ago
Guess you left out the part where Brigham Young DEFENDED slavery. Also you left out the little caveat was the possibility of loosing tax exempt status. (see Bob Jones vs IRS) for practicing segregation. So you don't think that describing native Americans as "savage, lazy" to the point where it wasn't THEY who built the temples in the Americas, but white "Jews" isn't racist?
michardav 7 months ago
@michardav
Native Americans were NOT described as being savage, lazy etc. And who said anything about pyramids? LOL! It was one individual (thousands of years ago) describing how others had changed after they'd stopped living "in the ways of their fathers". Try reading the text yourself. Also, racial segregation was never practiced in Utah. There were no "whites only" meeting houses or drinking fountains or schools. Incidently, women still can't hold the priesthood nor can men have kids.
deboradec3160 7 months ago
@deboradec3160 Maybe YOU should try reading it 2 Nephi 5:23 "And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey." And I guess you didn't know that Utah until 1963, had a a law preventing whites from marrying blacks- even one quarter, not content with that they through in "Mongolian: (Asian) or Malay (Philipino) (Utah Code, 40-1-2, C. L. 17, §2967)
michardav 7 months ago
Just a bunch of quotes that proves nothing.
DrinkElectrolytes 7 months ago
@ConstantSurprises
Both government and atheism have slaughtered MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people throughout history making them more dangerous than any religious cult in the history of this earth. However, I do not hear you calling for the abolition of either of those just the abolition of people who actually do provide the world with food, hospitals, amnesty, tolerance, abolition of slavery and the root of philanthropy. You are intolerant!
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 If I save one man, but kill three, that does not make me good. Also if I save one man but with the condition that he acknowledge my faith, than it is done out of selfishness, not good. And you don't need religion to acomplish good deeds, one does not need to be religious in order to be MORAL. We could go back to the conquest of Canaan where the Israelites were commanded to slaughter entire populations (but keep the little virgins for themsleves!) and throughout history.
michardav 7 months ago
@michardav
FALSE. You start out true then make non-sequitirs! It don't follow & you're all over the place. Make an argument with numbered premises, please.
You are not arguing my position but a strawman. I never made those claims. I don't even know to what you are posting. Be clear, number your premises and state a valid conclusion, please.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 How clearer can I be? You argue that religion does good, I counter by saying just because I save one does not excuse the five I kill. I start with the beginning- the Israelite conquest of Canaan in which Moses commanded the men to kill everybody but keep the virgin girls for themselves. Slavery was not abolished by religion, rather excused by religion- Brigham Young was FOR slavery. Religion destroyed the scientific works of the ancients as heresy, keeping us in the Dark Ages.
michardav 7 months ago
@michardav FALSE!
I did not claim RELIGION was good. I stated a fact, Christian theism HAS BEEN GOOD to the world! The Canaanites were executed BY GOD BY HIS JUDGMENT! According to your false argument, the executioner of your state is a murderer and not simply the person charged with executing the judgment of the people against evil! And I will not answer the false claim that God authorized rape. Anyone who reads the Bible can see the truth for themselves. God did not ordain slavery.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 Did Moses not speak for God? Did he not set down rules selling YOUR OWN DAUGHTER into slavery? Did he not say, "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (wonder what for?)" Numbers 31:17-18
So those women and children deserved death because "GOD" said it was okay? Hitler said the same thing about Jews.
michardav 7 months ago
@michardav
God gave life, God can take it back! HE OWNS EVERYTHING! You are the one with the contradiction comparing a creature, Hitler, who had NO ownership of life to God Who owns it. Ergo, he STOLE life while God cannot murder. He can judge anyone at any time and punish them ANYWAY HE SEES FIT WITHOUT CONTRADICTION OR SIN! I don't know what your problem is. But, pick a subject, make an argument WITH NUMBERED PREMISES and start making sense. Otherwise, you sound like a madman!
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 God didn't take the lives of those women and children- men did. A man said it was god's will. If God wanted them dead, he has shown through the plaques, Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood that he's capable of doing it himself. HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THE RAPE OF LITTLE GIRLS AND THE MURDER OF LITTLE BOYS BY SAYING IT WAS "GOD'S WILL"?!!! That is repugnant! What sin did a two year old boy commit? What did a two year old girl do to deserve being raped by an Israelite?
michardav 7 months ago
@michardav
Again, are you STUPID? I showed the ensample of the executioner. MOSES SPOKE FOR GOD (YOUR WORDS) AND GOD NOT MOSES commanded the execution. If you had actually read the whole Old Testament you would have know the truth and not misrepresented the Word.
God used the Israelites to give TIME FOR REPENTANCE. You know nothing of history. I WILL EXPLAIN!
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@michardav
City states were all that existed at that time in history. Each had their own god such as dagon. Each fought against other states with the claim that the victor's god was the stronger of the gods. As testified by Rahab the hooker, Israel's God had so destroyed city states that word had spread ahead of their coming. They knew that YaHWeH was the True God. He was demonstrating intolerance of idolatry (jealous God). THEY HAD TIME TO REPENT, BUT THEY CHOSE TO FIGHT HIM!
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 Rahab was Joshua, the Midianites were during Moses time. Too bad I'm so stupid and know nothing about the bible. So you are saying that a people who knew NOTHING of Yahweh, were to be slaughtered, even children, except for the little girls which the men were allowed to keep for themselves, this is fine with you. Meanwhile the chosen of god can erect idols in Solomon's temple and even use it as living quarters for male prostitutes! Yup sounds like a just and loving god to me.
michardav 7 months ago
@michardav
Didn't say that. Do you put words in all the mouths of those who refute you or just me? They spent 40 years in the wilderness on top of the travel time to arrive there. Your claims are vapid and false. You don't want to debate things honestly. You only want to rant. Maybe one day you will desire to be set free of your god. But, I have no more time for luciferian vitriol! Fare well.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 Debate what? You stated the people I quoted about in Numbers were warned- you gave a name. However you were mistaken, Rahab was during Joshua's time, not Moses. You excuse rape of children and infanticide as god's will yet it is I WHO IS EVIL? I quoted scripture, you go off on tangents, when cornered you say it's "god's will" so I countered by saying why would god punish a people who couldn't know him, yet not punish those who set idols and male prostitutes in the temple?
michardav 7 months ago
@michardav
Fighting the Hebrews at that point was fighting YHWH HIMSELF! So all who refused to make peace and worship their God were ANTI-CHRIST and God judged them each time and ordered them executed.
I ask you this, would you complain this much if God just slew you with a bolt of lightning and did not permit you this opportunity of repentance? Are you so arrogant that you tempt God when He gives you this opportunity and extra time for repentance? Do you want MERCY OR JUSTICE???
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 God didn't slay them with lightning bolts. Men killed babes just born, raped small girls. Women killed clutching their children. THIS IS JUSTICE? All for not worshipping a god they KNEW NOTHING ABOUT!!? You don't see a PROBLEM WITH THIS? AGAIN what is the difference between Hitler and Moses? Both massacred people and both said it was in the name of god. Maybe god WAS on Hitler's side- why did he not come to the aid of six million Jews?
michardav 7 months ago
@michardav
The Jews rejected Jesus, YHWH come in flesh. Nevertheless, for every Jew slain, about 1.5 Christians were slaughtered too. God warned this was coming and people ignored Him. His goal is not for us to live here permanently in sin. Once He destroys sin, then, we get a permanent dwelling without death, corruption or sin.
Again, He has given 2000+ years for repentance and you hate Him for His mercy. It doesn't escape me that you avoided the real questions I posed! John 3:17-22
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 You didn't post any "questions". I don't hate Yahweh, son of El and Ashtera, one of the Elohim or gods of southern Canann anymore than I hate Zeus or Osiris. Yes god warned, and people keep going. Just as they have for 100,000 years. Who slaughtered Christians to the tune of 9,000,000BTW? Are you saying Adolph Hitler was a tool of God? yea, and I'm the one you hates. You've justified genocide, infanticide, rape and the holocaust- and have the gall to say I'm the one who's evil!
michardav 7 months ago
@michardav
BTW, I am sorry you got screwed by the LDS. But, MOSES HAD AN ETHIOPIAN WIFE! And when Miriam and Aaron spoke against him for it, God struck them with leprosy. GOD NEVER SUPPORTED HATRED! He says that hatred is MURDER (as He knows it ALWAYS leads to murder). That is why He, Jesus, said, "Love thy neighbor as thy self", NOT as they should. He knew man would lie & justify his mistreatment of others. God has always demonstrate mercy, patience & love even in judgment.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 God never supported hatred? What do you call genocide? You ought to CAREFULLy read you're Old Testament (or Tanakh) and tell me again. "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:27. Yea I really feel the love here.
michardav 7 months ago
@ConstantSurprises
False! I have not known any Mormons to mistreat people in my lifetime because of the color of their skin! My Mormon friends and school mates never complained of any mistreatment for being girls either! Further even the Christian Church DOES NOT have a bad track record with discrimination against women or blacks. To say otherwise is a boldfaced lie. Lastly, your claim against religion is biased and intolerant. We cannot be blamed for those who do evil in the name of good!
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 I was raised Mormon, went to seminary, I remember when a black family left because their children couldn't go to Scouts.
I would think being FOR SLAVERY is a BAD track record. I would think making it ILLEGAL to marry a black person, or Chinese or Philipino is a BAD TRACK RECORD (only corrected in 1963). If Yahweh speaks through the prophet, why would he say such things?
THERE'S the rub- "It's not OUR fault, GOD commanded it" NO you SAID God commanded it. BIG DIFFERENCE!!
michardav 7 months ago
@michardav
Christianity was NOT the endorser of slavery. Now you are resorting to slander in order to avoid admitting that prophets of the Mormon church WERE WRONG in the past. Just because they confused the curse of Cain with the Curse of Ham and tried to make it about black skin, it says nothing of Christians. it means they made the same mistake many slavers did by demeaning them based on a false claim using misinterpretation & misapplication of the Bible to cover the racist propaganda.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 It is not slander, you admit it was a mistake to confuse it. The difference is the PROPHET Brigham Young stated it as a fact from God, slavers did it for a profit. Also the Mormon church REFUSED to acknowledge their mistake until the possibility their tax exempt status would come under review. I am not resorting to propaganda, it is all true and easily backed up.
michardav 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 Is it slander to say it was illegal in Utah until 1963 to marry a black or Asian? I ask you YES or NO...IS THAT SLANDER? ooh let me guess... it was God's will. God does not make the laws in Utah, otherwise they would be perfect from the start. MAN does.
michardav 7 months ago
@michardav
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I'M NOT MORMON! Polygamy was tolerated for a while in ancient times to keep blood lines going. It was not God's will or intent. Brigham capitulated when Washington said, no polygamy or no statehood. But, they did not care whether they violated people's right to marry whomever they please. Further, government has NO authority to regulate marriage as it is a religious institution not a civil one.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 Never said you were, I am not talking about polygamy, I am talking about the State of Utah making it illegal for a caucasian to marry an African or Asian. This was in affect until 1963. That doesn't strike you as racist? And polygamy had nothing to do with "blood lines" but a taste for young women. When a newspaper printed some interesting facts about the women (more like girls) that the Mormon leaders were marrying (some adulterous) the paper was burnt to the ground.
michardav 7 months ago
@ConstantSurprises Mormons are Christians... We are The Church of Jesus Christ of Later-Day Saint, we believe in Christ, we rejoyce in Christ, and we trust in Christ. Our actual denomination doesn't matter at this time, Christ is each of our Savior and loves each of us, so why are we fighting over this? God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are real and love us, why can't we love each other? There's only one way to eternity in His arms. Maybe each of us need to correct the mote in our own eye first.
mamyjene11 7 months ago
try
GlowingMpd 7 months ago
Great music and video-I wish I could get this medley
urflofit2010 7 months ago
Lies
GlowingMpd 7 months ago
And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him declared in the presence of all the people for what cause she touched him, and how she was healed immediately. And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
GlowingMpd 7 months ago
Oh please this is bull crap. Did any of the OT prophets have to deny former words because of limited understanding? A PROPHETS WORDS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GODS SO IF YOU ARE SAYING THAT PROPHETS OF GOD HAD LIMITED UNDERSTANDING WHEN THEY SPOKE, YOU ARE MALIGNING THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE. HE DOES NOT CHANGE HIS MIND.
ficklestyx 7 months ago 2
@ficklestyx Maligning the God of the Universe? I think not. Mormons simply have a correct understanding of Prophets. They are not perfect. Read the OT and you'll quickly discover that truth. Remember Moses walking around in the desert for 40 years? Remember Jonah and the whale? They got into those situations because they were very IMPERFECT and unfortunately did not always do as God commanded them. You appear to be looking for a reason to criticize Mormons, so your reaction is not surprising.
DefendingMormonism 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism
NO! NONE of the OT PROPHETS EVER GOT A PROPHECY WRONG!!! The OT says that if a prophet prophesies something and it does not come to pass, they are not YaHWeH God's prophet and are to be stoned. Unlike LDS prophets, we Christians do not move from lesser light to lesser light. We have the inerrant and perfect Word of God where every Biblical prophet has been SPOT ON even over thousands of years. It's not hard to defend our forebears. But, better to stand for God than men.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 First of all, so-called Bible "inerrancy" is a modern day Christian belief -- a corrupt one at that -- and to assume that every single prophecy of every single prophet to ever exist is in fact included in our modern-day version of the compiled library of scriptures (the Bible) passed down from generation to generation is naive. Yes, it is a popular belief among many Christians, but most definitely a false doctrine. God's words continue to be revealed through living Prophets.
DefendingMormonism 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism
1 FALSE - God Himself said that his word would not pass away (not one jot or tittle) until ALL WAS FULFILLED! That's inerrancy since He claimed it was God-breathed, perfect and true as He cannot lie.
2 FALSE - As Joseph Smith continued from the beginning to claim a restoration and continuation of the original Gospel of God, then, his prophecy must align perfectly with the Bible. You cannot move from error to error, darkeness to light.
CONT
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism
CONT Ergo if the Bible has errors, Mormonism is FALSE given a false set of premises as its foundation. No prophet in the Bible was ever shown to be false in prophecy. God explicitly said that a prophet who was false in his prophetic utterance WAS NOT OF GOD & was to be executed!
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism
Also in Deuteronomy 28 YaHWeH says that you are not to follow other gods. He says in Isaiah that He IS THE ONLY GOD and He knows of NO OTHER GOD! So, if the Bible in its oldest books are wrong, then, Joseph Smith is wrong as he claimed it his foundation. You either have a true Bible or you have nothing. All of Joseph's claims rest upon the inerrancy of the Bible! It's an all or nothing deal. You can't have a true conclusion from a false premise.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism Hello there who ever you are. I hope you are aware that a clone account of your same name is on YouTube as we speak that is giving your faith a bad name. Allowing such behavior might make me believe you might have somthing to do with it. If not I would get on this right away.
CleveRiot 7 months ago
Comment removed
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
Is this video a joke? We don't know why the ban existed? It's not a mystery. Try looking for 5 minutes. The early church leaders explained in GREAT DETAIL all the WHYs. Are you stupid? Cain killed abel, etc., etc.
JohnAColtharp 7 months ago
@JohnAColtharp The childish name-calling is self-serving and only makes you look foolish. Early church leaders had a lot of SPECULATION about the priesthood ban. There were a myriad of reasons created for it, though we know now that they were wrong, and unfortunately the church's image suffers because of their faulty opinions. Learning how to not emotionalize your comments will help you make your case. Thanks.
DefendingMormonism 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism Mr. Coltharp is actually correct in his assertions. There is no mystery as to why these things happened and, if one would "delve into this topic" without a preconceived conclusion, the references are easy to find. To openly portray that the priesthood ban as a "mystery" or that the reasons for it are "only known to God", is irresponsible to the highest degree and displays a true lack of research and understanding.
mattbeachum 7 months ago
@mattbeachum The only preconceived conclusion about this topic is that Mormons are "racist." Many ex-Mormons, anti-Mormons and Christians (ironically) use the "racism" card as a pretense for bashing Mormonism. An extremely superficial study focused on non-authoritative sources (including the Journal of Discourses) would obviously bring up allegedly incriminating statements. The whole point is that these statements were SPECULATION to justify the ban. Rid yourself of biased assumptions.
DefendingMormonism 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism You label it speculation, but they sounded very sure of themselves, and spoke as if it were truth revealed from heaven. Your statement that "we know now that they were wrong" is completely false. I don't know any such thing, and neither do you. You choose modern "speculation" in preference to earlier viewpoints. There isn't absolute proof in favor of either. According to my own research, the evidence strongly leans in favor of the earlier brethren.
JohnAColtharp 5 months ago
@DefendingMormonism You label it speculation, but they sounded very sure of themselves, and spoke as if it were truth revealed from heaven. Your statement that "we know now that they were wrong" is completely false. I don't know any such thing, and neither do you. You choose modern "speculation" in preference to earlier viewpoints. There isn't absolute proof in favor of either. According to my own research, the evidence strongly leans in favor of the earlier brethren.
JohnAColtharp 5 months ago
@JohnAColtharp It doesn't matter HOW sure of themselves they sounded, it was still speculation. "spoke as if it were truth revealed from heaven"? Did any of them make that claim? Or are you merely tacking that on to add some weight to your argument? Your problem is that you are falling into the same trap a lot of anti-Mormonism folk fall into: presuming to dictate to us Mormons what we should, and should not, be believing.
JediMormon 4 months ago
@JediMormon Actually, Brigham Young said, "thus saith the Eternal I am" when speaking of the blacks not holding the Priesthood. That sounds pretty authoritative. In fact, I can't think of more authoritative language that could have been used. In the same discourse, he also said "I will say it now, in the name of Jesus Christ, I know it is true." (See The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, vol. 1, ed. by Richard S. Van Wagoner [Salt Lake City: The Smith-Pettit Foundation, 2009], pp. 468–47.)
JohnAColtharp 3 months ago
@JohnAColtharp "thus saith the Eternal I am"..."I will say it now, in the name of Jesus Christ, I know it is true." If you are claiming that BY made those statements in reference to blacks not being able to hold the priesthood, all LDS knew that. As to WHY blacks could not hold the priesthood, any answer other than "we don't know other than the Lord forbid it", is nothing more than speculation; a best guess; a shot in the dark--or whatever.
JediMormon 3 months ago
@JediMormon Why is everything except actual revelations nothing but speculation? I don't recall "Thus Saith the Lord" when Joseph Smith taught that God was once a man, or that he had the first vision. Is the First Vision speculation? Is it speculation that God was once a man? In drawing the line that you have between speculation and revelation, if you truly stick to it, you'll eliminate a pretty significant portion of Mormonism's doctrines. You're kind of ridiculous.
JohnAColtharp 3 months ago
@JohnAColtharp No slam against you, but most anti-Mormonism types, you included, have no idea what constitutes LDS doctrine or what it takes for a writing, speech, talk, etc., to become official LDS doctrine. Basically, there are only 5 sources of doctrine in the church: the four standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price), and when the first presidency--as a first presidency--publishes a statement on something. First presidency messages in the Ensign are a good example.
JediMormon 3 months ago
@cont...) Why blacks couldn't hold the priesthood is a good example of the type of speculation (or personal opinion, or whatever) I'm referring to. What that all boiled down to was that no mortal on earth knew why the Lord forbid it until 1978--not even the current or previous prophets of the church. I was working for my bishop on his dairy farm when the revelation was received. Growing up, I heard much speculation as to why blacks were being denied the priesthood, but that's all it was.
JediMormon 3 months ago
Comment removed
JohnAColtharp 3 months ago
@JediMormon I'm not dictating to anyone what they should believe. Many people are not aware of the fact that these Prophets spoke upon this subject with such a level of authority. I'm simply trying to point that out. They clearly weren't just giving what they thought were their opinions.It's your choice whether or not you reject their words, and accuse them of giving false revelations and lying in the name of the Lord.
JohnAColtharp 3 months ago
@DefendingMormonism I hope your only reason for taking the position you have isn't because it's what is currently believed by the general authorities. Just because something is spoken more recently doesn't mean it's more true. The chronological order of the expressions of opposing viewpoints should never be used to determine which side is right. Falsehood can just as easily follow revelation, as revelation can follow falsehood.
JohnAColtharp 5 months ago
@JohnAColtharp, I think you totally misunderstood the video. In the case of the why's and wherefore's of blacks not being able to hold the priesthood, revelation from God always trumps the earlier speculation of man--and believe me, there was a LOT of speculation from members and leadership alike as to why this was so. You have never been LDS, so I don't expect you to understand, but that's the way it is.
JediMormon 4 months ago
@cato2849 If you want to know the truth I think you should read what is below.
dorisfenella 7 months ago
Comment removed
ConstantSurprises 7 months ago
@ConstantSurprises I think your misinterpreting "for reasons which we believe are known to God." That is NOT saying that the priesthood ban was instituted by God; it is merely saying that God knows why -- which very well could be because of the fault of the people in the church! If you are Christian, then you have no leg to stand on considering the horrid history of slavery justified by Christians! If you are also LDS, then you should delve into this topic more before jumping to conclusions.
DefendingMormonism 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism O BTW that comment wasn't directed to you, your name just happend to be the one that I clicked comment by.
mamyjene11 7 months ago
Mormons are Christians... We are The Church of Jesus Christ of Later-Day Saint, we believe in Christ, we rejoyce in Christ, and we trust in Christ. Our actual denomination doesn't matter at this time, Christ is each of our Savior and loves each of us, so why are we fighting over this? God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are real and love us, why can't we love each other? There's only one way to eternity in His arms. Maybe each of us need to correct the mote in our own eye first.
mamyjene11 7 months ago
@mamyjene11
Christians by definition believe and assert that Jesus, the Christ, is the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD Who created the universe and everything in it. We assert that He is YaHWeH (Elohim) come in the flesh and Who know lives in us with as the Holy Spirit Who is the One True God in Spirit.
Therefore, Mormons, if they truly believe the teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young cannot be Christians by any sense of the definition. I can claim to be black but that is obviously a false claim.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@ChristianVoice08 This of course depends on your own particular brand of Christianity -- of which there are thousands! Trying to push Mormons out of the "true" Christian circle only serves as more evidence that we espouse Jesus Christ's gospel as it was meant to be. Jesus Christ was never mainstream and he was never popular!!
DefendingMormonism 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism
FALSE! There is only one true doctrine of Christianity. There are thousands of congregations. Christianity as given by the Christ Himself is that He is God Incarnate, God is ONE GOD ALONE. There was no counsel of the gods & satan is a cherub cast down from heaven for blasphemy. He tempted Adam who sinned. God cursed creation. Jesus the Christ born of a virgin without sex died for our sins to pay the debt of justice. The Bible is His holy Word. THAT is Christianity!
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism
Lastly, Jesus the Christ has been very popular among those of us who seek Him, who love God, who are the called according to His purpose. You deny the singular deity of Christ as the ONE TRUE GOD. You claim that you being a man can become like the Most High God and be a god. Therefore, you are teaching blasphemy that came from satan himself as the first temptation of man that led to sin. THIS IS ANTI-CHRIST by definition. You are not Christians.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism
We love you. But Paul told us to have NO ecumenical fellowship with any that claim the name of Jesus but teach another gospel. You do. That is heresy. You deny yourselves membership in the circle of Christianity. All you have to do is believe on the name of Jesus that HE IS THE ONE TRUE GOD and He will save you. Then you are a Christian. You will keep His commandments (His definition of your being a Christian) & you will have joy unspeakable.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism
Why let anyone shut up the gate of heaven to you by burdening you with ordinances and laws that god Himself said were the "commandments of men". Jesus said "my yoke is easy and my burden light". He loves us and made it simple, the free gift from Him to us without works on our part as we are not worthy of the love of God. We have sinned against Him. Were it not for giving His own blood, we would be unredeemable. His mercy endures forever. Praise Jesus my Love & my God.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@mamyjene11
I think you would be well served to review the Christian doctrines laid out by Christian churches before asserting to be one of us. Smith taught that the LDS were a "restored" church and that we Christian ministers are the hirelings of satan. But, if the original doctrines of Christianity are different than Smith's teachings, then, Mormons cannot be Christians even if their doctrines are true.
Christians are those monotheists called by the name of their God - Christ.
ChristianVoice08 7 months ago
@mamyjene11 Well said.
DefendingMormonism 7 months ago
Doesn't matter. Black, white, racist or not.
IT'S FALSE
GlowingMpd 7 months ago
@GlowingMpd Care to expound on your blanket statement? Most people similarly decried Jesus as a "false" prophet and an "evil" person "possessed" by the Devil himself. Why would attack's against Jesus Christ's church and his followers in our day be any different?
DefendingMormonism 7 months ago
Is it possible that the curse of the mark of the lamanites had changed their DNA?
dorisfenella 7 months ago
@dorisfenella Any attempted answers to that question would be speculation at best. However, it is a fact that God is no respector of persons and loves all his children regardless of race. After all, he created the races! Besides, when it comes to skin, there are only shades of pigments -- all this talk of black vs white is man-made and divisive. We are all God's children and Mormons understand that doctrine better than most. Yes, our history is complicated, but we've come a long, long way.
DefendingMormonism 7 months ago
@dorisfenella How about the dna of the Nephis?
cato2849 7 months ago
"I believe we are in a golden age of Mormon history," Richard Bushman said, rattling off the sponsors for the symposium: Church History Department, Mormon Historic Sites Foundation, Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, Religious Studies Center, Springville Art Museum and Mormon Scholars Foundation.
omiolo 8 months ago
At symposium honoring birthday, Bushman says now is 'golden age' of Mormon historical scholarship
Mormon Times
omiolo 8 months ago
Whats the first fastest growing church? Racism...well lets see it started with Jo Smith. How convient that the 'Ban' was lefted in the 70's when America was in a stewing pot on the subject and rascism was becoming taboo.Oh thats right it was a REVELATION! "Never mind what GOD told me a second ago..he changed his mind..now says this" Really?God is not as fickle as men.And the Bible never mentions denying any one do to their race. Therefore LDS and their changing views are probably not Christians.
777Luluseven 8 months ago
@777Luluseven Most members today do not believe that the Priesthood ban was instituted by God -- in fact there is not documentation to shot that. It was likely a policy put in place by Brigham Young, for reasons we know not, but obviously during those times America was a completely different place, and most Christians in the South supported slavery! Mormons always welcomed blacks into their congregations. And blacks were never taught that they couldn't reach the highest heaven.
DefendingMormonism 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism Well unforunately for the LDS their history does not go back far enough where you can explain away doctrine brought about by views of men at the time. It just so happens that the very founders of your religion felt this way. Your religion wasn't corrupted by rasicts men over time...it was created by them. LDS no longer holding to that principle is not the point. You follow a religion that was born not of Gods will but of mens. The fact you have changed it...proves that.
777Luluseven 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism, I'm so tired of people like you saying "for reasons we know not." Really? I can find about 200 talks from the 1800s, where the brethren explain in great detail exactly why. Everyone today, including this video, and including you, keeps lying to the public, pretending we don't know why, to make it sound like it must have been nothing but a random racist policy without any justified reason.
JohnAColtharp 7 months ago
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@DefendingMormonism, I'm so tired of people like you saying "for reasons we know not." Really? I can find about 200 talks from the 1800s, where the brethren explain in great detail exactly why. Everyone today, including this video, and including you, keeps lying to the public, pretending we don't know why, to make it sound like it must have been nothing but a random racist policy without any justified reason.
JohnAColtharp 7 months ago
@DefendingMormonism The only way Blacks could get ino heaven in the old day was as a SERVANT OF MAN1
cato2849 7 months ago
@cato2849 As per mormon teaching
cato2849 7 months ago
Mormon Christians try to live the gospel of Jesus Christ in both word and deed.
MormonsLoveFamilies 8 months ago
mormons are devil's
MrJuxtapoz2010 9 months ago
If you look back at history and the political social norms of the 1700-1960 's there were a lot of biased attitudes , thoughts and treatment of people based on ones color of skin . If the LDS faith had been allowed to give blacks the priesthood they would have been more heavily persecuted then they all ready were . it wasn't until the civil rights movement that the social and political climates would be right for people to be able to accept blacks and other minorities as they should have been.
awchan8907 10 months ago
@awchan8907 Wonderfully said!
Dalessiokiller 10 months ago
@Dalessiokiller ,thank you . ,those who do not pay attention to history are bound to repeat it .
awchan8907 6 months ago
@awchan8907 I can only imagine what I said at this point in time but in any event - you're welcome!
Dalessiokiller 6 months ago
Once again, you've brought the Holy Spirit into the answers, and only the arrogant, the hateful and the liars will argue against this. Thanks again for all your work.
Sid
scubawrestler 10 months ago
Now a days, the best way to hide the racism in your own past is to either fabricate or blow out of proportion the supposed racism in others.
I think Jesus warned something about that.
omiolo2 10 months ago 2
I can go on but I'm sure by now anyone reading is sick of me. Point is while other Christians were struggling and splitting just over the idea of worshiping with Black people the LDS church was embracing them and ordaining them. there was confusion regarding where the ban even came from and if was personal and not revelation. That's were we have the problem of mortals doing an immortals work. Regardless the LDS did a much better job of accepting blacks during a time that it wasn't popular. Amen
Dalessiokiller 10 months ago
Confusion regarding the Priesthood ban: 1879: Abraham Smoot and Zebedee Coltrin Claim Joseph Smith Instituted the Priesthood Ban - highly doubtful as blacks were ordained priests while Joseph was alive. 1883: Elijah Abel Still Has the Priesthood. 1885: B.H. Roberts Speculates on the Origin of the Priesthood Ban (because of the POGP scriptures - controversial as well) 1900 Pres Snow not sure if Ban was revelation or personal which is understandable with all the LDS suffered through.
Dalessiokiller 10 months ago
1846: William McCary Baptized and Ordained by Apostle Orson Hyde. 1851: Orson Hyde Makes Statement about Slavery. - This is where things start to take a turn! “The laws of the land recognize slavery, we do not wish to oppose the laws of the country.” So it's the non LDS law interfering with spiritual growth in the church. 1852: Slavery Made Legal in Utah. Civil war starts, 1866: First Ku Klux Klan formed (Some claim to be Christian) never brought up by critics. TBC..
Dalessiokiller 10 months ago
To be fair to the Methodists 1843 there was a split in the church (over slavery). So basically some realized that slavery was wrong and formed a splinter group. Point is Mormons never had that problem - with Slavery - polygamy maybe (whole other issue) but not with worshiping with Blacks. 1844: Samuel Chambers Baptized by Preston Thomas - had to be done in secret because he was a slave - the Mormons had enough persecution. 1844: Walker Lewis Ordained an Elder.
Dalessiokiller 10 months ago
1842: Smith Writes His Famous Letter about Slavery. 1843: Blacks have souls - sounds silly right? However this was an item that others didn’t necessarily believe. short quote by Joseph "Given an equal environment they would be on the same level as whites." So people of other sects saying Blacks didn't even have a soul but Mormons are racists because of a priesthood ban? How about the Methodists - the ministers had 1,500 slaves, and 25,000 members owned 208,000. - never mentioned by critics.
Dalessiokiller 10 months ago
@Dalessiokiller Any Christian who accuses Mormons of "racism" is simply ignoring modern Christian history or using the accusation as an excuse for attacking Mormons because of an unhealthy and misguided hate.
DefendingMormonism 10 months ago
@Dalessiokiller not true, read the other Christian writings. They preached all men had souls, The very words of Paul to the Romans were that neither king or slave would be rejected from the kingdom of heaven. Slavery was in the old testament ,but as a part of daily life. The slaves were just the lower class of people, their was no color hierarchy .
Mormons believe that blacks are descendents of Cain and that is why God turned their skin black. Changing history doesn't make it true.
snowwolf7777 8 months ago
@snowwolf7777 I didn't say all Christian sects believed it but there were some who did. I'd have to go through a lot of documentation because non Mormon racism is not as popular for some reason. That was the reason for my rant. So it is true, non Mormon Christians did much worse than the controversial seed of Cain doctrine and the so called priesthood ban. I did not change history. In fact I got the info from a black lds site. Peace to u and yours.
Dalessiokiller 8 months ago
@Dalessiokiller I am faltered with your praises, but I can not find a christian sect that believes blacks don't have souls. except the FLDS. which i agree isn't apart of your beliefs. I don't like to uses bias sources in my research. Groups like the black lds are not going to admit the history of their church. no offense, but it will discredit the primary sources and real research.
sprites guild you.
snowwolf7777 8 months ago
@snowwolf7777 Fair enough but if I'm wrong on one - and I'm human so it's very possible - am I wrong on the rest? Kind of like 9 out of 10 isn't bad sort of thing. Ha ha. Please keep in mind that once again my rant was not to erase any wrong LDS leaders may have done but to put a stop to double standards. Good talking to you.
Dalessiokiller 8 months ago
1836: Joseph Smith Slavery Editorial - read it. 1836: Elijah Abel Listed in the Messenger and Advocate. 1836: Elijah Abel Ordained a Seventy - so far so good right? To be fair - 1839: Catholic Church Opposes Slavery (FINALLY!) 1841: Baptists Argue that Slavery is Biblical! (there's evidence of all beliefs but how come the critic never mentions this!?) 1842: Joseph Smith Writes in His Personal Journal that Slaves Should be Set Free - he's said other dumb things too - we all have get over it.
Dalessiokiller 10 months ago
Controversial 1833: Free People of Color Editorial Published by LDS church. "Free People of Color" was it's title. Pretty bold move while in Missouri. That was one of the leading factors in the expulsion of the Mormons. Because Missouri was a slave state. 1836: Elijah Abel Ordained an Elder - still not much happening in the other "Christian" branches as far as a unity goes. Don't get me wrong now - I'm not on some "Christian racism" crusade - Just showing both sides of the story.
Dalessiokiller 10 months ago
Meanwhile in 1832: Elijah Abel was Baptized by Ezekiel Roberts. Elijah goes on to become the first black man to be given the priesthood in the LDS Church. This is all while these so called "non cult/ real Christians" can't even manage to worship with Blacks in the same building without problems (I'm sure I'll get threats for that one). So no persecution yet from "real Christians" and/ or Government - and no priesthood ban - anyone see where I'm going with this? I got more......
Dalessiokiller 10 months ago
1816: American Colonization Society formed - Presbyterian - set up to help Blacks but they were so "openly racist" stating that Blacks couldn't adapt to a white society. Not directly related = 1831: Nat Turner’s Rebellion - You can do your own homework on this but in the end 15,000 whites put an end to a 60 man rebellion killing many innocent blacks along the way. I wonder what congragation those 15000 men belonged to - we'll never know because they weren't "Mormon"
Dalessiokiller 10 months ago