In all this game, the devil is losing and at the end will be accused of everything because GOD don’t want any rivals. Conclusion: live at the full in the freedom of GOD (praying in a right form, following the INSTRUCTIONS in the Bible - keeping the 10 commandments - including keeping the Saturday as the 7th day etc.) instead of in the incapacity and limited power of devil because he is just a temporary puppet. Jesus Christ is the savior and hope.
As near as 1 month ago people still posting that Allen was the Z?....
No wonder he'll never be caught, people dont even try.
Allen was nowhere near the intelligence level of Z. I cant even force fit those pegs and cant believe anyone else can. Its a clue to how gullible and easily manipulated some people are, shows like this are pure crap.
@CARLPHILLIPS408 Fun stuff huh! Too bad he wasnt the Zodiac, nor was he even smart enough. The police wasted the preponderance of their time chasing a pathetic child molester instead of looking for someone who could communicate in code nad build impossible ciphers.
Even genius cryptologists have Z as a mad genius which ALA most certainly was not. They should remove these erroneous references to Allen being Z because he has been fully excluded with hard evidence now.
@guitarplayer4real Did i mention fun?No!Just interesting.It was said that Arthur could not have been the killer as the killer showed no sadistic tendencies which brings us to the "blow up a school bus & pop the kids off as they jump from the bus" threat.This would have been the worse crime a child molester could commit.Although Arthur was not the Zodiac killer the Zodiac killer sure knew Arthur.
why wasnt any dna found, forensic scientist probably made a mistake dealing with the dna test. i was convinced it was allen because mike mageau said it was allen that shot him.
True but he was not a good person. I don't think its enough to blame her for murders he MIGHT not have done. But he was indeed a sick person...Sorry for replying to your 3 month comment I just felt to speak what was on my mind :)
i believe cheney and panazarella and this guy....someone please pay a psychic , a real one. one that has already helped solve cases...let them touch the paul stien shirt
Well according to some information I came across GARETH PENN is the Zodiac, OPORD seems to have solved all the ciphers and with the solutions gathered concluded that PENN is Zodiac.
if you look at the cartoons drawn by Graysmith and compare them to the cartoons the zodiac killer sent is his correspondence (eg. Halloween card) you will see an errie resemblance. the more I delve into this case, the more clearly it becomes: Robert Graysmith is the Zodiac
Well, anyway, the DNA evidence ruled him out after they tested the stamps from the letters right? But there could have been at least one other person. Mabey two folks worked together as a team. The circumstantial evidence points strongly to Allen.
what if he paid a hobo a couple of bucks to spit in a cup. There could be a 1000 different ways to collect someones saliva. A serial killer of this caliber surely would have planned this. Same with the fingerprints. Police should have done 24/7 surveillance on him, bug his home, tracked his purchases, task an undercover agent to become friends with him.
Moral of the story, to many egos got in the way to stop a killer.
I find it amazing how many people post here suggesting 'common sense' ought to be enough to convict ALA. My goodness... if the prosecution had to establish only common sense grounds, then our prisons would be full of innocent people. I'm grateful smarter people than those who post here designed our justice system.
It's very easy to see ALA as the Zodiac, circumstantially, but it's also easy to see how the physical evidence points elsewhere, and that HAS to be the standard.
@wolfwilliams I agree w/ you but isnt there a remote possibility he was somehow connected or at the very least somehow drew attn to himself and liked it ?
@plasticaholic He might have drawn attention to himself after reading the papers, but to imply he was 'connected' and maybe not the killer means you believe this was a conspiracy. I doubt that it was, and Allen would not have just stopped killing as Zodiac seemed to do. Zodiac was compelled to do what he did. Serial killers almost never just give up the game; they get caught or they die. Allen sat around the Bay Area another 20 years and there were no more Zodiac killings. It wasn't Allen...
@0megaM00 I disagree... Look at the half dozen suspects in the Jack the Ripper slayings. Various coincidences surround all of them. Can they all be the killer....?
@wolfwilliams True. But there wasn't nearly as much connecting them to Jack the Ripper as there is connecting Allen to the zodiac. Like th other guy said, theres just too much for it to all be a coincidence.
Yeah, and if common sense was applied like it should have been in the O.J. Simpson case, O.J. would have been convicted because he like ALA was guilty murder. C'mon man! Get real!
@guyzsly The evidence in O.J. Simpson case points strongly toward guilty and in Allen's case it doesn't. Simpson was acquitted because of jury misconduct. Allen was known to the police for 20 years and was never even arrested for any of the murders. You obviously are believing what Greysmith wrote in his books, mainly Zodiac Unmasked is true and it isn't.
There is no mountain of circumstantial evidence against Arthur Leigh Allen although there have been a number of lies written about him by Graysmith. Among Graysmith's fabrications are that Allen wore Wing Walker Air Force boots (These boots were probably worn by the killer at Lake Berryessa), Allen was arrested for speeding on the day of the Lake Berryessa murders and Allen's own family said he deliberately mispelled Christmas with two s.
The SFPD & FBI dismissed Allen as a suspect because his fingerprints didn't match those of the killer of taxi cab driver Stine. These 3 prints from the Stine murder are still the best evidence in this case. Other evidence exonerating Allen are the often-mentioned DNA from the stamp and the most recent evidence found was two palm prints from 2 different Zodiac letters.
The circumstantial evidence against ALA is overwhelming. Law enforcement officials in Vallejo, and most notably Detective Dave Toschi of the SFPD still considers him the #1 suspect. The physical evidence did not prove ALA was Zodiac, BUT, it also did not rule him out which is a KEY factor in the case. If the Zodiak case happened today, he would have been convicted, PERIOD, end of story! Even ALA's own brother believes he is guilty. Go ask him!
Like I said, there is no mountain of circumstantial evidence. The physical evidence does rule him out -- fingerprints, palm prints, handwriting, and the DNA. The Vallejo police department has egg on their face regarding Allen as a suspect because they cut a lenient sentencing deal with an armed robber who supposedly had major information proving Allen was Zodiac. Suffice to say, he didn't.
@guyzsly You've smoked so much dope that you hardly have a brain but I guess you could acquire some falsehoods from the movie. Graysmith, Cheny and others have fabricated stories about how Allen's brother & sister-in-law thinking he was the Zodiac. Neither ever believed at any time that Allen was the Zodiac. That's what's actually in the police reports not the lies told in the movie which has Allen's sister-in-law contacting police and urging them to continue their investigation.
The Zodiac Killer likely did the Tate-Labianca killings. The style and weapons used were the same. He shot them from close range and also stabbed some people.
He seemed to have help from members of the administration. He seemed to aquire maps and know how to shut off electricity to the Cielo Drive house where Tate lived. Tate was a known Wiccan who practiced witchcraft, but wanted out. She was killed along with Voy who raped a man. Voy's murder was vengeance,he was the most viciously attacked.
The zodiac killa will neva let uno who t fuk it is unless ur a schitzphrenic, cauz u will neva digest the meaning of what he means..... feel free 2 contact me on gubrom@optusnet.com.au, but dnt expect a reply!!!!
"I will make this very clear. My one reason I am killing. If I don't kill I am likely too abandon my chance to collect my slaves for the afterlife. Even when I know you can't find me I am not safe walking if I am collect my slaves. When slaves you found saved dead in a car. He changed his mind and road form me. He walked by without hiding from me. Nothing was safe. He was hiding a knife. You even listened too my slave was calling for help." 340 cipher
This case is insane. True, the samples taken from the stamps on the zodiac letters did not match allen, but it couldn't be determined if it was acutually DNA taken from the letters. Allen had a very high IQ, so I believe he planned 10 steps ahead, obviously put a lot of thought into the crimes years before he commited them. The circumstantional evidence against him is staggering, and he knew that, but they couldn't prove it, so he relished fucking with them.
The beliefs that Allen knew DNA 30yrs before it was developed is absurd. Its a one million percent quantum leap. No forensic evidence has ever linked Allen to the crimes so quit trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
It's not to say that people believe, but what if the killer was smart enough to know that most people would think "Well of course he's going to say that! But he's lying!" and he used that to actually look the opposite while everyone believes he would look the same? I don't solidly believe the killer was telling the truth, but they most certainly could have been telling the truth.
If Don Cheney was telling the truth, then Leigh is the killer, If Leigh's family is telling the truth about him misspelling 'christmass' on purpose, then Leigh is the killer. He wore a zodiac watch everywhere, making him feel superior as he walked around as people worried about the zodiac, not knowing that he was right next to them. Leigh loved attention, proving so by the letters he sent, (both as the zodiac and as himself) and the numerous TV interviews he granted. Its more than obviously him.
all that evidence is sercom stantial and would never get a guilty verdict in court. You need hard evidence like fingerprints...dna... somthin that can PROVE he was the killer. and so far the hard evidence says no, but theres always the chance someone else licked the envelope he mailed the letters in. But his finger prints did NOT match those in blood on the taxi! I say its not Leigh!
@GiratinaOriginAwakes Why not share what you allegedly know about the case if you know so much? One sentence without a period doesn't impress anyone here with your handle of the case.
But the only person to REALLY get a good look at him and live was that guy who got stabbed numerous times (his friend/girlfriend or whatever died), but at the time Z was wearing that four-cornered hood. Authorities wondered why he did that instead of wearinga a ski mask, did they not ever consider the fact that the box shape hides the shape of his head and facial structure? Ski mask or other mask like that shape to fit the head. So significant details would still be managable to conceive.
i agree... ive also read before that a good disguise method is to put regular lenses in glasses so it would appear that u wear glasses.... i belive Z had the intelligence to do such a thing since he was smart enough to use glue to hide his finger prints... but the officer who saw him said he was wearing glasses, if u were going to use them as a disguise u would put them on just before the crime...
Exactly. You know... It seems that some people either fail or just refuse to believe that many people are basically too smart for police and their scientific/forensic tools and connections because they're scared of people like Z who use it to their criminal advantage, thereby giving them a reason to be fearful and doubting of what protection (or lack of) police can truly provide.
The Zodiac said in one of his letters that his disguise when he kills is the very opposite of what he looks like every other day. And many of the "solid" descriptions gathered during the weren't proven to be very reliable. And people can simpley restate what even one person has said which makes that one statement seem like a solid piece of evidence or information, when really it could just be someone pretending they know information directly linked when they really don't.
But realy if you think about it Z confirmed that Donald Foukes the officer who was answering to Paul Stines murder saw him in one of his letters. So judging on the composite he gave at that time, Z would have looked exactly like that same body same everything except the glasses and clothes.
It depends on when Z was telling the truth. Obviously he has lied at some instances, but when he was telling the truth and when he was lieing, can't really be absolutely determined.
Many profiles where actually given, including that he was black. And apart from the guy i mention below who saw the killer in the four-cornered hood, the only other person to get a really good like at Z was some woman who escaped after being abducted, but she is unreliable because even her retelling of the event changes, she has told numerous versions of what happened. So I really don't think she should be relied upon.
There were no profiles of him being black . The 911 dispacher reported Paul Stines murderer as a "black male" but then was later corrected to being caucasian.
C'mon people! Get serious! Anybody with half a brain knows Arthur Leigh Allen was the Zodiac. The DNA from stamps means nothing. Many people use liquid to moisten stamps because they hate the taste. One of his victims identified him as Allen. Open and shut case!
yea because there has NEVER been a case of mistaken identity... and they got partial dna from the letter so he obviously didn't use a "liquid" they also got a partial palm print from the letters that didn't match Allen's and not to mention the bloody finger print from the cab also not Allen's...hows your open and shut case sounding now?
The cops think he did it. The FBI thinks he did it, and Graysmith thinks he did it as does the guy he stabbed who identified him in a photo. People get convicted all the time based on circumstantial evidence. O.J. got off, but he murdered two people. The circumstantial evidence against ALA is overwhelming, but you keep on wasting time with your conspiracy theories. Good luck to you, and let me know how that works out for you!
how is it a conspiracy theory? just because i don't agree with you? and the circumstantial evidence may be strong but the physical evidence contradicts it and any defense would show this evidence..
The DNA evidence was partial at best and didn't prove anything, but it doesn't mean he didn't commit the crime. People have been convicted on less evidence than what they have on ALA including an eyewitness identification. Let me put it to you this way. I once dated an FBI agent named Laurie who told me in the eyes of the FBI, the case is closed because ALA committed the crimes, and he is dead. Take that for wahtever it's worth.
your forgetting other physical evidence which contradicts your "evidence", and its worth dick you act like the FBI has never fucked up.. this case wold be thrown out if he had a decent defense..
He would be convicted just on the eyewitness testimony of the guy who was stabbed by him who identified him by a photograph. Many defendants have been convicted by circusmstantial evidence without phyisical evidence. The zodiak watch in and of itself speaks volumes about his potential for guilt. There's a point where common sense has to prevail, and there are simply way too many "coinicidences" that logic dictates guilt or innocence. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one!
The physical evidence does not "prove" guilt or innocence, but the circumstantial evidence clearly supports guilt. This includes eyewitness identification by Michael Mageau one of his victims. To this day, ALA remains the #1 suspect, and if I were on a jury based on the evidence I have seen regardless of DNA or lack thereof, I would vote guilty. At some point, common sense and logic needs to supercede emotion, and as I mentioned before, many have been rightly convicted w/o physical evidence.
thats the dumbest thing you have said yet physical evidence doesn't prove guilt or innocence lol wtf are you talking about have you ever been to a court room?
I meant in this particular case, the physical evidence "DNA" doesn't prove ALA did or didn't do it. Just because they didn't find ALA's finger prints in the blood or DNA in the stamp saliva does not mean he didn't commit the crime. But, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming and as I previously mentioned to you, criminal minds smarter than you and I although I have a very high IQ have all gone on record to say that ALA is the #1 suspect, including Vallejo and SFPD and the FBI. Get real!
I served on a jury in 2003 for a murder trial. The defendant was found guilty on circumstantial evidence. It took 1.5 days to reach a verdict. At the end of the day, we used common sense and logic. Like I stated previously, the FBI, SFPD and Vallejo police department all believe ALA is the culprit as do I. Good luck!
@tbmang12 If the judge instructed you that it was correct in rendering a guilty verdict solely on the basis of circumstantial evidence you can be sure that your verdict will be soundly overturned on appeal. You were wasting your time.
Michael Mageau "identified" Allen from looking at 6 driver's license photos over 20 years after the shooting. During those 20 years, he spent the majority of the time on drugs. He was shot in the head during the night attack and his identification was considered of such little value that Allen wasn't even arrested.
You are lying when you write that the SFPD and FBI have Allen as their no. 1 suspect. These two agencies are the ones that dismissed him (Continued)
The SFPD & FBI dismissed Allen as a suspect because his fingerprints didn't match those of the killer of taxi cab driver Stine. These 3 prints from the Stine murder are still the best evidence in this case. Other evidence exonerating Stine is the often-mentioned DNA from the stamp and the most recent evidence found was two palm prints from 2 different Zodiac letters.
My theory is that, Arthur Leigh Allen was the "Hitman" wearing a disguise of the so called glasses and etc. And we also had someone else writing the letters, in other words Allen is telling the other guy to write down what he is saying. Or he could of just fooled everyone at the handwriting test. I mean its either that Marshall guy, Jack Tarrance, or Allen in my opinion. But we will never know. It could have been Ferrin's Husband. A jealous husband kills wife then gets to like the feeling.
It's easy to say Arthur is or is not the zodiac, its difficult for anyone who read into the evidence to suck it up and say the truth. There isn't any good evidence to convict or accuse anyone.
its ALA they proved it in 2000 or somethin like that from DNA on one of the envelopes sent to the chronicle... only reason they say the killer could still be out there is the case is still open in a few countys, only reason they say that, is because there isnt enough evidence to be legaly sure it is ALA
ala is not the zodiac it is proven too. beacause the zodiac was supposed to be both left and right handed. ala was that but the handwriting didnt match up. but ala was the biggest suspect ever in the case. i beleve its actually jack turrance. i saw this thing on the news one day there was so much info connected between the zodaic and him. it has to be jack turrance.
Source? Marshall was already cleared on handwriting and his prints did not match those on the letters or at the crime scene. In fact, Marshall has now been officially cleared.
By default, we can assume one killer. At least one person had to commit the Z crimes.
What evidence is there of two killers?
None.
Game, set, match.
Matching fingerprints on the letters and at the crime scenes, only one person. That's pretty solid evidence that the person who wrote the letters was the killer.
Evidence that only one person was involved? Matching prints for one person on the letters and the crime scene. Witnesses of three Z crimes indicated only one perpetrator. Furthermore an extra person was not needed and anyone in LE will tell you that the more people that know about a crime, the greater the chances are of getting caught.
Once again the question THAT YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY REFUSED TO ANSWER: What evidence is there that more than one person was involved? It's a simple question!
Repeatedly ? You have to ask it more than once for me to become guilty of 'repeatedly' failing to answer your question. Anyway, how petty ! I really couldn't give a FLYING FUCK whether it really was one person or two or more, but I'd like to know why you - in your 'wisdom' - have decided that it can only possibly be one person ? What you need here is a rationale. It's still an unsolved case after more than 40 years and you shouldn't discount any possibility. Give an explanation and don't be rude
'Matching prints for one person on the letters and the crime scene.'
Could you be ANY MORE VAGUE ?
Matching prints of one person (taken from the crime scene) and (taken from) a letter ?? Is that what you meant ?? In how many of the supposed Zodiac murders were the fingerprints the same ? And - if there were any such cases, were there any letters which yielded the same fingerprints ?
There's no conclusive evidence that either more than one OR only one person was involved. It isn't even clear which murders were committed by the same killer / killers. The Zodiac claimed to have 37 victims in one letter. The official, accepted figure is only 5 or (if you include Bates) 6. Witness descriptions vary wildly in many respects : height, colour and style of hair etc. The evidence is confusing. The idea that there was only one killer has been pursued vigorously - and yielded nothing.
Based on the assumption of a single killer, Graysmith et al came up with Arthur Leigh Allen as their prime suspect. But DNA tests proved at least that it wasn't HIS DNA on the 'genuine' Zodiac letters. He still may have been the killer though. He never licked his own stamps. He was a weird bloke but he was also clever : it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he either got someone else to write the letters or that he used someone else's handwriting. Have you got any better ideas ?
The police made a botch job of this case. I can hardly think of a case which was pursued more incompetently. Using the media to publicise the case was self-defeating : how many hoaxers did it bring out of the woodwork ? In England police were thrown off the scent of The Yorkshire Ripper when a man from Sunderland sent them tape recordings of him claiming to be the killer. That wouldn't have happened if the media hadn't been involved. In the Zodiac case it spawned copycat murders. Keystone cops !
@zarakhast You are absolutely correct about the police mismanagement of this case. There was a clear lack of coordination between the various agencies involved and this worked entirely in the murderer's favor resulting in a permanent "cold case."
I answered your question several times. Are you blind ? There's no conclusive evidence EITHER for ONE killer OR for MORE THAN ONE. Is that clear to you ? The question I asked you (which you didn't answer either) is : why do you start from the assumption of a single killer ? This is standard procedure because there usually IS only one killer. But this case is unsolved after more than 40 years. There isn't a watertight case against any individual suspect after all this time.
Which killer then ? The evidence that exists could only be said to point to one killer if he had been positively identified. He hasn't. Therefore you can't assume that there was necessarily one killer.
Arthur Leigh Allen's DNA did not match that discovered on the authenticated Zodiac letters, nor did his handwriting match that in the letters. The amassed evidence does not point conclusively to ANY of the suspects. Therefore you cannot assume that only one person was involved.
If you can show how and why the evidence all points to one killer please do so. Not everyone makes the same assumption as you do - because an assumption is all it is.
The police should offer apologies not only to those whom they wrongfully convict, but also to those whom they wrongfully accuse. Mud sticks - people don't forget. They think to themselves : 'This guy was accused of murder. Even if he didn't commit the murder he must have been bad to have been accused of it'. Allen may have been the Zodiac but if he wasn't then the police were guilty of making his life a misery and possibly shortening it.
As far as 'hating authority' is concerned - how common is that ? I hate authority, because half the time they don't deserve to be in authority. Some of the supposed 'evidence' against Allen is ludicrous.
Allen's 'grey box' - did anyone ever find it ? Even if they did, he might have got rid of what used to be contained in it. He served time at Atascadero and the idea I've heard is that inside that box there was code and handwriting - the handwriting possibly belonging to another Atascadero inmate (who was in with Allen at the same time). Did the police ever bother to check this ? If it wasn't Allen then I feel sorry for him : he was very talented, although a bit weird, but mud sticks ...
Has it ever been ruled out that there may have been more than one person involved in the crimes? Not the killings obviously but the overall plots. It seems that way to me.
I can say there isn't any evidence establishing that more than one person was involved. It's far from unbelievable that Zodiac could kill 5 five people, wound two more and then write taunting letters to the police. I see no reason why Z would need another person. It would increase his chances of getting caught and stop his collection of slaves for the afterlife. He gloated in the fact he was never caught. To him, it proved that he was too clever and smart for LE.
I don't see your logic. Why would he be more likely to be caught if he had planned these murders with one or more others ? If the whole thing had been well planned a collaboration of two or more individuals would have REDUCED the chances of anyone being caught - not increased them. I'm not convinced that did happen - but I don't understand your certainty that it didn't. Nothing at all fits together in this case. Either the real murderer was never a suspect or his strategy hasn't been understood
No, speculation isn't evidence - but in this case that's all there is ! All the standard procedures have been applied to this case and have yielded a bit fat NOTHING ! As I said - either there was one killer and he never became a suspect for some reason, OR there was indeed more than one person involved (not necessarily more than one killer though), OR there was one killer and he made himself seem to be more than one person. The police were hopeless in this case.
Also, just because there is no evidence that more than one person was involved you can't assume that it was only one person. This case is especially baffling and seems to require lateral thinking. The Lake Berryessa murder is especially interesting to me : on the car door was the same handwriting as was in several of the letters. If the letters were from a different person then he must have been up there with the killer that day - which SEEMS unlikely, though it's not impossible.
But why is it your hypothesis that there was only one person involved ? Because that's usually the case ? But this isn't a a normal case - it's unsolved after more than 40 years. I'm not saying that more than one person WAS involved - but you can't discount the possibility, and the many discrepancies in the case at least suggest it as a possibility. And I could also counter : show me anything indicating that only ONE person was involved. You wouldn't be able to produce anything convincing either
@zarakhast The FBI profiles serial killers as usually being "loner" types. Bundy, Gacy, and Dalhmer all worked alone. In their way of "thinking" too many killers spoil the broth, so to speak.
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In all this game, the devil is losing and at the end will be accused of everything because GOD don’t want any rivals. Conclusion: live at the full in the freedom of GOD (praying in a right form, following the INSTRUCTIONS in the Bible - keeping the 10 commandments - including keeping the Saturday as the 7th day etc.) instead of in the incapacity and limited power of devil because he is just a temporary puppet. Jesus Christ is the savior and hope.
diptdipt 1 month ago
As near as 1 month ago people still posting that Allen was the Z?....
No wonder he'll never be caught, people dont even try.
Allen was nowhere near the intelligence level of Z. I cant even force fit those pegs and cant believe anyone else can. Its a clue to how gullible and easily manipulated some people are, shows like this are pure crap.
guitarplayer4real 2 months ago
His Name Was Arthur Leigh Allen is one of the best documentaries i have watched.
CARLPHILLIPS408 3 months ago
@CARLPHILLIPS408 Fun stuff huh! Too bad he wasnt the Zodiac, nor was he even smart enough. The police wasted the preponderance of their time chasing a pathetic child molester instead of looking for someone who could communicate in code nad build impossible ciphers.
Even genius cryptologists have Z as a mad genius which ALA most certainly was not. They should remove these erroneous references to Allen being Z because he has been fully excluded with hard evidence now.
guitarplayer4real 2 months ago
@guitarplayer4real Did i mention fun?No!Just interesting.It was said that Arthur could not have been the killer as the killer showed no sadistic tendencies which brings us to the "blow up a school bus & pop the kids off as they jump from the bus" threat.This would have been the worse crime a child molester could commit.Although Arthur was not the Zodiac killer the Zodiac killer sure knew Arthur.
CARLPHILLIPS408 2 months ago
allen was the zodiac but he dies when mageu identified him
andunusblick 4 months ago
@andunusblick
Mike Mageau subsequently identified someone else as the person who shot him.
locked6 4 months ago
why wasnt any dna found, forensic scientist probably made a mistake dealing with the dna test. i was convinced it was allen because mike mageau said it was allen that shot him.
jessetrend19 7 months ago
Not the Zodiac's M.O.
faffaflunkie 8 months ago
I Don't Know Why So Many People Think Arthur Leigh Allen Was The Zodiac! There Is No Evidence At All. Its Laughable.
renues 10 months ago
@renues
True but he was not a good person. I don't think its enough to blame her for murders he MIGHT not have done. But he was indeed a sick person...Sorry for replying to your 3 month comment I just felt to speak what was on my mind :)
-R
SalamaJaUkkonen 7 months ago
@renues THERE IS NOW look it up
just found
poosaypirate 4 months ago
4:59 What a sicko.
027220 11 months ago
At 3:02 that man was drunk as a monkey....
hydromorph1965 11 months ago
dna taken from allen's corpse after he passed did not match any of the blood from the zodiac.
brh044 11 months ago
@brh044 There was no blood evidence from the Zodiac. They took the DNA from saliva on the letters to the press.
DickLodge68 10 months ago
@brh044 strange , they just found his signature on one of the ciphers he wrote- RECENTLY!
poosaypirate 4 months ago
i believe cheney and panazarella and this guy....someone please pay a psychic , a real one. one that has already helped solve cases...let them touch the paul stien shirt
ElnaCopper 11 months ago
no wait someone tell me what happened after arthur allen burst through the guys door?
TheMarkc 1 year ago
this is fucking sick , i had to fast forward it.
southcarolinarocks 1 year ago
Well according to some information I came across GARETH PENN is the Zodiac, OPORD seems to have solved all the ciphers and with the solutions gathered concluded that PENN is Zodiac.
uborrowmycar 1 year ago
if you look at the cartoons drawn by Graysmith and compare them to the cartoons the zodiac killer sent is his correspondence (eg. Halloween card) you will see an errie resemblance. the more I delve into this case, the more clearly it becomes: Robert Graysmith is the Zodiac
freestylefunk 1 year ago
Well, anyway, the DNA evidence ruled him out after they tested the stamps from the letters right? But there could have been at least one other person. Mabey two folks worked together as a team. The circumstantial evidence points strongly to Allen.
bwd81977 1 year ago
@bwd81977
what if he paid a hobo a couple of bucks to spit in a cup. There could be a 1000 different ways to collect someones saliva. A serial killer of this caliber surely would have planned this. Same with the fingerprints. Police should have done 24/7 surveillance on him, bug his home, tracked his purchases, task an undercover agent to become friends with him.
Moral of the story, to many egos got in the way to stop a killer.
blotto85 1 year ago
I find it amazing how many people post here suggesting 'common sense' ought to be enough to convict ALA. My goodness... if the prosecution had to establish only common sense grounds, then our prisons would be full of innocent people. I'm grateful smarter people than those who post here designed our justice system.
It's very easy to see ALA as the Zodiac, circumstantially, but it's also easy to see how the physical evidence points elsewhere, and that HAS to be the standard.
It wasn't ALA.
wolfwilliams 1 year ago
@wolfwilliams I agree w/ you but isnt there a remote possibility he was somehow connected or at the very least somehow drew attn to himself and liked it ?
plasticaholic 1 year ago
@plasticaholic He might have drawn attention to himself after reading the papers, but to imply he was 'connected' and maybe not the killer means you believe this was a conspiracy. I doubt that it was, and Allen would not have just stopped killing as Zodiac seemed to do. Zodiac was compelled to do what he did. Serial killers almost never just give up the game; they get caught or they die. Allen sat around the Bay Area another 20 years and there were no more Zodiac killings. It wasn't Allen...
wolfwilliams 1 year ago
@wolfwilliams
Theres too many coincidences with Allen. He was most likely the killer.
0megaM00 1 year ago
@0megaM00 I disagree... Look at the half dozen suspects in the Jack the Ripper slayings. Various coincidences surround all of them. Can they all be the killer....?
wolfwilliams 1 year ago
@wolfwilliams True. But there wasn't nearly as much connecting them to Jack the Ripper as there is connecting Allen to the zodiac. Like th other guy said, theres just too much for it to all be a coincidence.
MCK141 1 year ago
@MCK141 The overwhelming majority of the so-called "evidence" said to implicate him has been proven to be exaggerated, distorted, or fabricated.
locked6 1 year ago
@wolfwilliams
Yeah, and if common sense was applied like it should have been in the O.J. Simpson case, O.J. would have been convicted because he like ALA was guilty murder. C'mon man! Get real!
guyzsly 1 year ago
@guyzsly The evidence in O.J. Simpson case points strongly toward guilty and in Allen's case it doesn't. Simpson was acquitted because of jury misconduct. Allen was known to the police for 20 years and was never even arrested for any of the murders. You obviously are believing what Greysmith wrote in his books, mainly Zodiac Unmasked is true and it isn't.
locked6 1 year ago
@granger456 Agree..thumbs up..
breetin 1 year ago
@ZAGREB77 No proof at all that Allen is/was the Zodiac!!!
breetin 1 year ago
these old guys are funny lol ratfucking lol.
jimpurdie 1 year ago
There is no mountain of circumstantial evidence against Arthur Leigh Allen although there have been a number of lies written about him by Graysmith. Among Graysmith's fabrications are that Allen wore Wing Walker Air Force boots (These boots were probably worn by the killer at Lake Berryessa), Allen was arrested for speeding on the day of the Lake Berryessa murders and Allen's own family said he deliberately mispelled Christmas with two s.
locked6 1 year ago 5
@locked6 tha fuck that meant ? but now some one decoded one of his Ciphers , the results yielded his signature . you can find the article on line
poosaypirate 4 months ago
@poosaypirate
No one has decoded any of the Zodiac cyphers except the first one. Regardless of what Graysmith or Gareth Penn are claiming.
locked6 4 months ago
Continued
The SFPD & FBI dismissed Allen as a suspect because his fingerprints didn't match those of the killer of taxi cab driver Stine. These 3 prints from the Stine murder are still the best evidence in this case. Other evidence exonerating Allen are the often-mentioned DNA from the stamp and the most recent evidence found was two palm prints from 2 different Zodiac letters.
locked6 1 year ago
@locked6
The circumstantial evidence against ALA is overwhelming. Law enforcement officials in Vallejo, and most notably Detective Dave Toschi of the SFPD still considers him the #1 suspect. The physical evidence did not prove ALA was Zodiac, BUT, it also did not rule him out which is a KEY factor in the case. If the Zodiak case happened today, he would have been convicted, PERIOD, end of story! Even ALA's own brother believes he is guilty. Go ask him!
tbmang12 1 year ago
@tbmang12
Like I said, there is no mountain of circumstantial evidence. The physical evidence does rule him out -- fingerprints, palm prints, handwriting, and the DNA. The Vallejo police department has egg on their face regarding Allen as a suspect because they cut a lenient sentencing deal with an armed robber who supposedly had major information proving Allen was Zodiac. Suffice to say, he didn't.
locked6 1 year ago
@locked6
Are you high on crack cocaine? Anybody with HALF a brain knows that fat slob ALA was the the Zodiac. Just ask his family!
guyzsly 1 year ago
@guyzsly You've smoked so much dope that you hardly have a brain but I guess you could acquire some falsehoods from the movie. Graysmith, Cheny and others have fabricated stories about how Allen's brother & sister-in-law thinking he was the Zodiac. Neither ever believed at any time that Allen was the Zodiac. That's what's actually in the police reports not the lies told in the movie which has Allen's sister-in-law contacting police and urging them to continue their investigation.
locked6 1 year ago
He is not the zodiac killer. No way.
bobywade517 1 year ago
The Zodiac Killer likely did the Tate-Labianca killings. The style and weapons used were the same. He shot them from close range and also stabbed some people.
He seemed to have help from members of the administration. He seemed to aquire maps and know how to shut off electricity to the Cielo Drive house where Tate lived. Tate was a known Wiccan who practiced witchcraft, but wanted out. She was killed along with Voy who raped a man. Voy's murder was vengeance,he was the most viciously attacked.
ExoticGawdess 1 year ago
Don Cheney - Oil - Dick Cheney
?
ExoticGawdess 1 year ago 5
hahahahaha i dont believe that zodiac would beat up people and threat them in his real life, bullshit. You can rarely see that happen.
smoku46 1 year ago
you all need 2 enter the world of insanity 2 understand the real and now!!!!
1970GR 1 year ago
The zodiac killa will neva let uno who t fuk it is unless ur a schitzphrenic, cauz u will neva digest the meaning of what he means..... feel free 2 contact me on gubrom@optusnet.com.au, but dnt expect a reply!!!!
1970GR 1 year ago
This dude is in no way the zodiac killer! gubrom@optusnet.com.au, ur time is short and now would b a good time to 2 be lettn me no!
1970GR 1 year ago
"I will make this very clear. My one reason I am killing. If I don't kill I am likely too abandon my chance to collect my slaves for the afterlife. Even when I know you can't find me I am not safe walking if I am collect my slaves. When slaves you found saved dead in a car. He changed his mind and road form me. He walked by without hiding from me. Nothing was safe. He was hiding a knife. You even listened too my slave was calling for help." 340 cipher
jlw4503 1 year ago
@jlw4503 Did you decode this cipher, or did you find it somewhere else, in a book, internet? Anyway, kinda interesting..thanks!
breetin 1 year ago
@mryomomma the zodiac is dead you stupid fuck...now stfu
787jeffro 2 years ago
This case is insane. True, the samples taken from the stamps on the zodiac letters did not match allen, but it couldn't be determined if it was acutually DNA taken from the letters. Allen had a very high IQ, so I believe he planned 10 steps ahead, obviously put a lot of thought into the crimes years before he commited them. The circumstantional evidence against him is staggering, and he knew that, but they couldn't prove it, so he relished fucking with them.
StonedAristotle 2 years ago 3
The beliefs that Allen knew DNA 30yrs before it was developed is absurd. Its a one million percent quantum leap. No forensic evidence has ever linked Allen to the crimes so quit trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
ruedydude 1 year ago
@ruedydude Agree!
breetin 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I'm the Zodiac, bitches! Bow before me!
MrYOmamma866 2 years ago
allen isn't the zodiac. The DNA samples did not match those recieved in the letter nor did the palm prints
StL33T 2 years ago 3
but there is no proof that the DNA belongs to Zodiak. cops have only assumed that. i think its pretty clear that arthur lee allen is the zodiak
finnfisu 2 years ago
this is a great video... ive never seen it anywhere else... A+
jebus419 2 years ago
That video was just aqwqard with all of the Crotch talk.
Ashenfly 2 years ago
Comment removed
jebus419 2 years ago
Then get better speakers, not the posters fault you have crappy speakers or are deaf. I have mine at 20% and I hear it fine.
pittresident 2 years ago
Your def. mine are only half up.
Ashenfly 2 years ago
Does anyone know where Arthur Leigh Allen was buried? It seems to be another mystery.
schuey999 2 years ago
Who cares? Do you want to go dig him up or something? I'm not sure why it matters.
pittresident 2 years ago
how did this tomato-man learn to speak english?
shamrock118 2 years ago 10
lol
SmokenxKush 2 years ago
i bet he's not dead he moved to canada to grow up he's son or dotter to continue the zodiac case ;)
NarowAR07 2 years ago
It's not to say that people believe, but what if the killer was smart enough to know that most people would think "Well of course he's going to say that! But he's lying!" and he used that to actually look the opposite while everyone believes he would look the same? I don't solidly believe the killer was telling the truth, but they most certainly could have been telling the truth.
PanicMusicFan 2 years ago
The Prime suspect was Rick Marshal not Allen like i said i know more about the case than almost any cop or president
GiratinaOriginAwakes 2 years ago
If Don Cheney was telling the truth, then Leigh is the killer, If Leigh's family is telling the truth about him misspelling 'christmass' on purpose, then Leigh is the killer. He wore a zodiac watch everywhere, making him feel superior as he walked around as people worried about the zodiac, not knowing that he was right next to them. Leigh loved attention, proving so by the letters he sent, (both as the zodiac and as himself) and the numerous TV interviews he granted. Its more than obviously him.
onetimerrr 2 years ago
all that evidence is sercom stantial and would never get a guilty verdict in court. You need hard evidence like fingerprints...dna... somthin that can PROVE he was the killer. and so far the hard evidence says no, but theres always the chance someone else licked the envelope he mailed the letters in. But his finger prints did NOT match those in blood on the taxi! I say its not Leigh!
blazed24sevn 2 years ago
one of don chaneys kids was said to of been molested by allen. Makes allen a sick fuck, but not the zodiac.
blazed24sevn 2 years ago
@GiratinaOriginAwakes Why not share what you allegedly know about the case if you know so much? One sentence without a period doesn't impress anyone here with your handle of the case.
RockDoctorLV 1 year ago
hand righting didn't match my father worked at the case..
GiratinaOriginAwakes 2 years ago
That doesnt negate the fact that his face is very round nothing like the composite looks like.
BoBtheparrot7 2 years ago
But the only person to REALLY get a good look at him and live was that guy who got stabbed numerous times (his friend/girlfriend or whatever died), but at the time Z was wearing that four-cornered hood. Authorities wondered why he did that instead of wearinga a ski mask, did they not ever consider the fact that the box shape hides the shape of his head and facial structure? Ski mask or other mask like that shape to fit the head. So significant details would still be managable to conceive.
PanicMusicFan 2 years ago
i agree... ive also read before that a good disguise method is to put regular lenses in glasses so it would appear that u wear glasses.... i belive Z had the intelligence to do such a thing since he was smart enough to use glue to hide his finger prints... but the officer who saw him said he was wearing glasses, if u were going to use them as a disguise u would put them on just before the crime...
jebus419 2 years ago
Exactly. You know... It seems that some people either fail or just refuse to believe that many people are basically too smart for police and their scientific/forensic tools and connections because they're scared of people like Z who use it to their criminal advantage, thereby giving them a reason to be fearful and doubting of what protection (or lack of) police can truly provide.
PanicMusicFan 2 years ago
But why does the Zodiac profiles look like the exact opposite of what ALA looks like???
BoBtheparrot7 2 years ago
Lol that doesn't make sense does it?
blazers6346 2 years ago
The Zodiac said in one of his letters that his disguise when he kills is the very opposite of what he looks like every other day. And many of the "solid" descriptions gathered during the weren't proven to be very reliable. And people can simpley restate what even one person has said which makes that one statement seem like a solid piece of evidence or information, when really it could just be someone pretending they know information directly linked when they really don't.
PanicMusicFan 2 years ago
But realy if you think about it Z confirmed that Donald Foukes the officer who was answering to Paul Stines murder saw him in one of his letters. So judging on the composite he gave at that time, Z would have looked exactly like that same body same everything except the glasses and clothes.
BoBtheparrot7 2 years ago
It depends on when Z was telling the truth. Obviously he has lied at some instances, but when he was telling the truth and when he was lieing, can't really be absolutely determined.
PanicMusicFan 2 years ago
I think he was telling the truth because after he said that Donald saw him he said "Hey pig I bet it hurts to get your boo-boos rubbed."
BoBtheparrot7 2 years ago
Many profiles where actually given, including that he was black. And apart from the guy i mention below who saw the killer in the four-cornered hood, the only other person to get a really good like at Z was some woman who escaped after being abducted, but she is unreliable because even her retelling of the event changes, she has told numerous versions of what happened. So I really don't think she should be relied upon.
PanicMusicFan 2 years ago
There were no profiles of him being black . The 911 dispacher reported Paul Stines murderer as a "black male" but then was later corrected to being caucasian.
BoBtheparrot7 2 years ago 3
I can't get enough of this Zodiac case. I'm going to move to SF and solve it once and for all!
schuey999 2 years ago 33
my father worked at the case and the prime suspect was Rick Marshal good luck with that
GiratinaOriginAwakes 2 years ago
@schuey999 You are going to need a lot more than just "Good Luck" to put this case to permanent rest.
RockDoctorLV 1 year ago
@schuey999 Okay, it's been a year since you've posted this.. have you yet solved the case?
pittresident 1 year ago
@pittresident Haha. Not yet, but still trying...
schuey999 1 year ago
@schuey999 good luck bro! can i come with?
slfandoz 1 year ago
@schuey999 good luck
thoostorm4 1 year ago
It was Jack Tarrance, what the hell is everyone talking about.
LordSkulleh 2 years ago
Comment removed
blotchy67 2 years ago
C'mon people! Get serious! Anybody with half a brain knows Arthur Leigh Allen was the Zodiac. The DNA from stamps means nothing. Many people use liquid to moisten stamps because they hate the taste. One of his victims identified him as Allen. Open and shut case!
tbmang12 2 years ago
yea because there has NEVER been a case of mistaken identity... and they got partial dna from the letter so he obviously didn't use a "liquid" they also got a partial palm print from the letters that didn't match Allen's and not to mention the bloody finger print from the cab also not Allen's...hows your open and shut case sounding now?
broy8371 2 years ago
The cops think he did it. The FBI thinks he did it, and Graysmith thinks he did it as does the guy he stabbed who identified him in a photo. People get convicted all the time based on circumstantial evidence. O.J. got off, but he murdered two people. The circumstantial evidence against ALA is overwhelming, but you keep on wasting time with your conspiracy theories. Good luck to you, and let me know how that works out for you!
tbmang12 2 years ago
how is it a conspiracy theory? just because i don't agree with you? and the circumstantial evidence may be strong but the physical evidence contradicts it and any defense would show this evidence..
broy8371 2 years ago
The DNA evidence was partial at best and didn't prove anything, but it doesn't mean he didn't commit the crime. People have been convicted on less evidence than what they have on ALA including an eyewitness identification. Let me put it to you this way. I once dated an FBI agent named Laurie who told me in the eyes of the FBI, the case is closed because ALA committed the crimes, and he is dead. Take that for wahtever it's worth.
tbmang12 2 years ago
your forgetting other physical evidence which contradicts your "evidence", and its worth dick you act like the FBI has never fucked up.. this case wold be thrown out if he had a decent defense..
broy8371 2 years ago
He would be convicted just on the eyewitness testimony of the guy who was stabbed by him who identified him by a photograph. Many defendants have been convicted by circusmstantial evidence without phyisical evidence. The zodiak watch in and of itself speaks volumes about his potential for guilt. There's a point where common sense has to prevail, and there are simply way too many "coinicidences" that logic dictates guilt or innocence. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one!
tbmang12 2 years ago
but there is physical evidence but it doesn't go against him, it helps him therefor its not simply a circumstantial case
broy8371 2 years ago
The physical evidence does not "prove" guilt or innocence, but the circumstantial evidence clearly supports guilt. This includes eyewitness identification by Michael Mageau one of his victims. To this day, ALA remains the #1 suspect, and if I were on a jury based on the evidence I have seen regardless of DNA or lack thereof, I would vote guilty. At some point, common sense and logic needs to supercede emotion, and as I mentioned before, many have been rightly convicted w/o physical evidence.
tbmang12 2 years ago
thats the dumbest thing you have said yet physical evidence doesn't prove guilt or innocence lol wtf are you talking about have you ever been to a court room?
broy8371 2 years ago
I meant in this particular case, the physical evidence "DNA" doesn't prove ALA did or didn't do it. Just because they didn't find ALA's finger prints in the blood or DNA in the stamp saliva does not mean he didn't commit the crime. But, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming and as I previously mentioned to you, criminal minds smarter than you and I although I have a very high IQ have all gone on record to say that ALA is the #1 suspect, including Vallejo and SFPD and the FBI. Get real!
tbmang12 2 years ago
there is more physical evidence than that, you obviously have never been in a court room...it would have been a very weak case
broy8371 2 years ago
I served on a jury in 2003 for a murder trial. The defendant was found guilty on circumstantial evidence. It took 1.5 days to reach a verdict. At the end of the day, we used common sense and logic. Like I stated previously, the FBI, SFPD and Vallejo police department all believe ALA is the culprit as do I. Good luck!
tbmang12 2 years ago
because they failed and hes dead why not blame him
broy8371 2 years ago
The problem with your assertion is that he was also the #1 suspect when he was alive, but if it makes you feel better, you run with it.
tbmang12 2 years ago
it does...pure speculation
broy8371 2 years ago
I have to agree with tbmang12. I mean Michael Magaeu identified him...
oib4696 2 years ago
@tbmang12 If the judge instructed you that it was correct in rendering a guilty verdict solely on the basis of circumstantial evidence you can be sure that your verdict will be soundly overturned on appeal. You were wasting your time.
RockDoctorLV 1 year ago
Comment removed
locked6 1 year ago
Comment removed
locked6 1 year ago
@tbmang12
Michael Mageau "identified" Allen from looking at 6 driver's license photos over 20 years after the shooting. During those 20 years, he spent the majority of the time on drugs. He was shot in the head during the night attack and his identification was considered of such little value that Allen wasn't even arrested.
You are lying when you write that the SFPD and FBI have Allen as their no. 1 suspect. These two agencies are the ones that dismissed him (Continued)
locked6 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@tbmang12
The SFPD & FBI dismissed Allen as a suspect because his fingerprints didn't match those of the killer of taxi cab driver Stine. These 3 prints from the Stine murder are still the best evidence in this case. Other evidence exonerating Stine is the often-mentioned DNA from the stamp and the most recent evidence found was two palm prints from 2 different Zodiac letters.
locked6 1 year ago
and dont read robert graysmiths book either. its full of so many inaccurate info.
yogaman1919 2 years ago
Richard Joseph Gaikowski is the zodiac people...
che4911 2 years ago
My theory is that, Arthur Leigh Allen was the "Hitman" wearing a disguise of the so called glasses and etc. And we also had someone else writing the letters, in other words Allen is telling the other guy to write down what he is saying. Or he could of just fooled everyone at the handwriting test. I mean its either that Marshall guy, Jack Tarrance, or Allen in my opinion. But we will never know. It could have been Ferrin's Husband. A jealous husband kills wife then gets to like the feeling.
RadOne83 2 years ago
I can't help but notice that George Bawari? looks a lot like the Zodiac drawing!
jackpilots 2 years ago
Allen has been ruled out. There is no forensic link between Allen and the Zodiac.
hyroglyphx 2 years ago
He hasn't been ruled out!
kingtiger88 3 years ago
there is no more evidence leading to anyone else.
It's easy to say Arthur is or is not the zodiac, its difficult for anyone who read into the evidence to suck it up and say the truth. There isn't any good evidence to convict or accuse anyone.
ahegele 3 years ago
Jack Tarrance was the Zodiac in my opinion so much more evidence points to him than ALA
i mean they even proved ALA's DNA didnt match zodiacs
ITW731 3 years ago
its ALA they proved it in 2000 or somethin like that from DNA on one of the envelopes sent to the chronicle... only reason they say the killer could still be out there is the case is still open in a few countys, only reason they say that, is because there isnt enough evidence to be legaly sure it is ALA
frackx3pack 3 years ago
i think that Mike Mageau was the Zodiac
lexyy02 3 years ago
ALA was obviously the Zodiac
sebastian577 3 years ago
i like turtles
keistyle 3 years ago 2
ala is not the zodiac it is proven too. beacause the zodiac was supposed to be both left and right handed. ala was that but the handwriting didnt match up. but ala was the biggest suspect ever in the case. i beleve its actually jack turrance. i saw this thing on the news one day there was so much info connected between the zodaic and him. it has to be jack turrance.
luckyjessepeaches1 3 years ago
dna was negative
shinute 3 years ago
could have wet the stamp with one of those sponges.
murphyluke 3 years ago
They never had the Zodiac's dna. Anyone can be touching stamps, cars, letters etc.
Skindoggiedog 2 years ago
A.L.A WAS The Zodiac.
generalzod4life 3 years ago 2
Source? Marshall was already cleared on handwriting and his prints did not match those on the letters or at the crime scene. In fact, Marshall has now been officially cleared.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
By default, we can assume one killer. At least one person had to commit the Z crimes.
What evidence is there of two killers?
None.
Game, set, match.
Matching fingerprints on the letters and at the crime scenes, only one person. That's pretty solid evidence that the person who wrote the letters was the killer.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
nowayjose470, zarakhast, I have bad news for both of you. I am the ZODIAC.
o*E^^No+Ao>Ko
lovehatefilms 3 years ago
Evidence that only one person was involved? Matching prints for one person on the letters and the crime scene. Witnesses of three Z crimes indicated only one perpetrator. Furthermore an extra person was not needed and anyone in LE will tell you that the more people that know about a crime, the greater the chances are of getting caught.
Once again the question THAT YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY REFUSED TO ANSWER: What evidence is there that more than one person was involved? It's a simple question!
nowayjose470 3 years ago
Furthermore descriptions of the perpatrator were consistent.
Now answer my question instead of avoiding it, throwing out Red Herrings or kicking Straw Man.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
Repeatedly ? You have to ask it more than once for me to become guilty of 'repeatedly' failing to answer your question. Anyway, how petty ! I really couldn't give a FLYING FUCK whether it really was one person or two or more, but I'd like to know why you - in your 'wisdom' - have decided that it can only possibly be one person ? What you need here is a rationale. It's still an unsolved case after more than 40 years and you shouldn't discount any possibility. Give an explanation and don't be rude
zarakhast 3 years ago
'Matching prints for one person on the letters and the crime scene.'
Could you be ANY MORE VAGUE ?
Matching prints of one person (taken from the crime scene) and (taken from) a letter ?? Is that what you meant ?? In how many of the supposed Zodiac murders were the fingerprints the same ? And - if there were any such cases, were there any letters which yielded the same fingerprints ?
zarakhast 3 years ago
The question typed slowly for you:
What evidence is there that more than one person was involved?
nowayjose470 3 years ago
There's no conclusive evidence that either more than one OR only one person was involved. It isn't even clear which murders were committed by the same killer / killers. The Zodiac claimed to have 37 victims in one letter. The official, accepted figure is only 5 or (if you include Bates) 6. Witness descriptions vary wildly in many respects : height, colour and style of hair etc. The evidence is confusing. The idea that there was only one killer has been pursued vigorously - and yielded nothing.
zarakhast 3 years ago
Based on the assumption of a single killer, Graysmith et al came up with Arthur Leigh Allen as their prime suspect. But DNA tests proved at least that it wasn't HIS DNA on the 'genuine' Zodiac letters. He still may have been the killer though. He never licked his own stamps. He was a weird bloke but he was also clever : it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he either got someone else to write the letters or that he used someone else's handwriting. Have you got any better ideas ?
zarakhast 3 years ago
The police made a botch job of this case. I can hardly think of a case which was pursued more incompetently. Using the media to publicise the case was self-defeating : how many hoaxers did it bring out of the woodwork ? In England police were thrown off the scent of The Yorkshire Ripper when a man from Sunderland sent them tape recordings of him claiming to be the killer. That wouldn't have happened if the media hadn't been involved. In the Zodiac case it spawned copycat murders. Keystone cops !
zarakhast 3 years ago
@zarakhast You are absolutely correct about the police mismanagement of this case. There was a clear lack of coordination between the various agencies involved and this worked entirely in the murderer's favor resulting in a permanent "cold case."
RockDoctorLV 1 year ago
I answered your question several times. Are you blind ? There's no conclusive evidence EITHER for ONE killer OR for MORE THAN ONE. Is that clear to you ? The question I asked you (which you didn't answer either) is : why do you start from the assumption of a single killer ? This is standard procedure because there usually IS only one killer. But this case is unsolved after more than 40 years. There isn't a watertight case against any individual suspect after all this time.
zarakhast 3 years ago
Try this: There is NO EVIDENCE AT ALL of more than one killer.
There IS evidence of one killer.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
Which killer then ? The evidence that exists could only be said to point to one killer if he had been positively identified. He hasn't. Therefore you can't assume that there was necessarily one killer.
Arthur Leigh Allen's DNA did not match that discovered on the authenticated Zodiac letters, nor did his handwriting match that in the letters. The amassed evidence does not point conclusively to ANY of the suspects. Therefore you cannot assume that only one person was involved.
zarakhast 3 years ago
If you can show how and why the evidence all points to one killer please do so. Not everyone makes the same assumption as you do - because an assumption is all it is.
zarakhast 3 years ago
I didn't ask you for conclusive evidence. I asked you for ANY evidence of two killers. Do you have prints, DNA, witnesses, anything???
nowayjose470 3 years ago
The police should offer apologies not only to those whom they wrongfully convict, but also to those whom they wrongfully accuse. Mud sticks - people don't forget. They think to themselves : 'This guy was accused of murder. Even if he didn't commit the murder he must have been bad to have been accused of it'. Allen may have been the Zodiac but if he wasn't then the police were guilty of making his life a misery and possibly shortening it.
zarakhast 3 years ago
As far as 'hating authority' is concerned - how common is that ? I hate authority, because half the time they don't deserve to be in authority. Some of the supposed 'evidence' against Allen is ludicrous.
zarakhast 3 years ago
Allen's 'grey box' - did anyone ever find it ? Even if they did, he might have got rid of what used to be contained in it. He served time at Atascadero and the idea I've heard is that inside that box there was code and handwriting - the handwriting possibly belonging to another Atascadero inmate (who was in with Allen at the same time). Did the police ever bother to check this ? If it wasn't Allen then I feel sorry for him : he was very talented, although a bit weird, but mud sticks ...
zarakhast 3 years ago
Has it ever been ruled out that there may have been more than one person involved in the crimes? Not the killings obviously but the overall plots. It seems that way to me.
GreenyMcFleetwood 3 years ago 3
I can say there isn't any evidence establishing that more than one person was involved. It's far from unbelievable that Zodiac could kill 5 five people, wound two more and then write taunting letters to the police. I see no reason why Z would need another person. It would increase his chances of getting caught and stop his collection of slaves for the afterlife. He gloated in the fact he was never caught. To him, it proved that he was too clever and smart for LE.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
I don't see your logic. Why would he be more likely to be caught if he had planned these murders with one or more others ? If the whole thing had been well planned a collaboration of two or more individuals would have REDUCED the chances of anyone being caught - not increased them. I'm not convinced that did happen - but I don't understand your certainty that it didn't. Nothing at all fits together in this case. Either the real murderer was never a suspect or his strategy hasn't been understood
zarakhast 3 years ago
I have indicated no certainty. I want to see EVIDENCE that there were two people involved.
Speculation isn't evidence.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
No, speculation isn't evidence - but in this case that's all there is ! All the standard procedures have been applied to this case and have yielded a bit fat NOTHING ! As I said - either there was one killer and he never became a suspect for some reason, OR there was indeed more than one person involved (not necessarily more than one killer though), OR there was one killer and he made himself seem to be more than one person. The police were hopeless in this case.
zarakhast 3 years ago
Also, just because there is no evidence that more than one person was involved you can't assume that it was only one person. This case is especially baffling and seems to require lateral thinking. The Lake Berryessa murder is especially interesting to me : on the car door was the same handwriting as was in several of the letters. If the letters were from a different person then he must have been up there with the killer that day - which SEEMS unlikely, though it's not impossible.
zarakhast 3 years ago
Lateral thinking doesn't mean follow a hypothesis that has no evidence supporting it. Show me anything indicating more than one person was invovled.
nowayjose470 3 years ago
But why is it your hypothesis that there was only one person involved ? Because that's usually the case ? But this isn't a a normal case - it's unsolved after more than 40 years. I'm not saying that more than one person WAS involved - but you can't discount the possibility, and the many discrepancies in the case at least suggest it as a possibility. And I could also counter : show me anything indicating that only ONE person was involved. You wouldn't be able to produce anything convincing either
zarakhast 3 years ago
@zarakhast The FBI profiles serial killers as usually being "loner" types. Bundy, Gacy, and Dalhmer all worked alone. In their way of "thinking" too many killers spoil the broth, so to speak.
RockDoctorLV 1 year ago
torrence is the zodiac check it out
zoocandy09890 3 years ago
it was allen. no doubt.
trrippyy 3 years ago