Naomi Klein China new disaster-capitalism trough

[MillionthUsername]

Anything Naomi doesn't like is "disaster capitalism". Hate to break it to you, lady, but even workers' paradises buy and sell. And all states do the same evil things.

You talk about transferring "public money" to "private interests," but you seem to forget that the "public sector" has no money that it hasn't stolen through violence or the threat of violence from peaceful private producers - what we used to call "society."

Next book: Disaster Statism.

[akinkhoo]

lady, you make one mistake, the chinese doesn't want to be ahead in just security system, they want to be ahead in EVERYTHING. this is a country that spend most of it's history as the top 3 powers in the past 40 centuries, averaging 25% of the world's GDP, what Chinese want is to again be engine of science and technology, as the country that develop blast funnel, printing and magnetism, china is no stranger to being state of the art.

[WPGSTOPBILLC51]

She is just giving US ALL another reason to step onto the trains.

That is all that she is doing!

The same result but with a different tone (strapping the bad boys on the hands but...doing nothing from keeping the trains from going camp-bound).

I detest population control programs. Agents like the Kleinster that fight for the "right to have no right" are fraudsters and a big part of the problem.

[vwguyaz87]

Im so tired of all the left wing, ignorant, socialist, mental midgets in this world.

[rickbar123]

social control in China--AK 47

SHUT THE DOOR ON IMPORTS

[gunthaarz]

If China does not loan their money from and pay interest to, a private central bank, then they have a much better economy than the entire western world...

for the US it means that all money in circulation is borrowed and gets called in plus interest. in other words more money than exists since all money in the US (the dollar) is created by loans ( proven fact) This was the essence of Jefferson and countless other intellectuals opposition to central or private banking. Congress should mint.

[botchalism]

Chilling......To think that they'd go farther then London, tracking people and documenting wherever they go and whatever they do, horrifying..."Those who would sacrifice liberty for the sake of security will gain neither and lose both" Benjamin Franklin.

[zombiesoiree]

I don't think Klein really knows what she's talking about when it comes to China. She's far more convincing on Iraq and Chile. The socio-economic structure in China is very different than what we would recognize as capitalism. You still don't have any effective property rights in China, so it's a bit odd for her to take this model she's developed by studying the Chicago School and ham-fistedly push China into it.

[eap8317]

If in your opinion China is not capitalist, why is the reason that most of the products we consume in the whole world come from China? Lok at everything you buy and you will find that 6 or 7 out of 10 products come from China. Many Corporations (mostly from the US) have now factories in China, and still we have the notion from the government that China is today communist but the truth is completely different...

[jingfengchen24]

...."but we're going to do it better, because we're Chinese and we do everything better......."

lol, Who the hell was she talking to? lol

[SavageJim01]

Yes, wealth has gone up in the 3rd world, but at what price? Human rights as former peasants are thrown into sweat shops instead of being given an education. The environment suffers because 3rd world does not have environmental laws. and of course, the prime consumers, Americans, lose their jobs to th 3rd world.

Chinese mercantilism has played a MAJOR part in destroying the world economy. Nit just China, even other 3rd world mercantilism too!

[GaryPansey]

Recommended: 9 Commentaries on The Chinese Communist Party

[jambon57]

I guess my ancestors were migrant workers when they arrived in the US from Wales all those years ago. Worked out ok though. I'm sure the Chinese migrant workers of today will be the resident workers of tomorrow. It's a fact that most of the younger women migrants only work in the factories for a few years then go home and start a family, taking a fat pay packet full of savings with them. I have no worries for the Chinese, they'll work it out.

[rsaswest]

Of interest...a recent NY Times report states most factory workers in China make less than 50 dollars a week.

However, since the implementation of market privatization, a poorer working class and hordes of wandering poor aren't the only story. There are now a handful of new billionaires.

Beware of anyone using "average per capita income" as a statistic to describe China post Tianenman, for precisely the above reasons.

[jambon57]

Look at any modern photograph of a Chinese city and tell me who is working in all those high rise office towers? You view of China is bizarre. After quoting GDP per capita for decades to support their point of view the "new' left has suddenly decided it's a lousy indicator now that wealth has in fact gone up in third world countries. Keep trying.

[rsaswest]

Like a typical right-winger you've missed the point entirely and ignored the troubling facts, tjose stubborn facts that don't support your conclusion.

[EvilDave1309]

what the hell?

all these stupid shit never happens in China. I bet these "journalists" have never been to china and don't know anything about the country. I've lived in China for 8 years and I say life there is happier than here in Canada...and much better food too!

[cool70200]

All these surveillance technologies in America, England and China and still high levels of theft(blackmarket movies), random violence and or crime as well as slow/nonproductive responses by the "authorities" in certain areas.

Only oil refineries and the upper classes or "important ones" seems to be treated with quick high regard.

Are only "some" of us in our cities/neighborhoods, in any country, any safer?

Or are "all" of us just more watched by our "big brothers"(governments)?

[keilyngodson26]

The police in Amkerikkka are a repressive force bitch! All you homos leave China alone, because if China is a rogue Gov't, then guess who financed them. Hint: "Made in China" Stupid fucks. Blaming our mishaps on the victims. Fuck capitalism.

[mastior]

BOYCOTT CHINA. China brought up the price of Steel to build their stadium. Tourism is DOWN

from last year,

[Corporations8MyBaby]

This is excellent. This is some of the best "Real News" I have viewed yet. It's so refreshing to hear sane thoughts, and clear analysis instead of all the spin in the Paleo-Media. This growing fascism is becoming the norm around the world and we the people have to start thinking about it and facing it.

[bg24955]

i think she learn china online.

[8421128]

Its the Golden Rule who has the Gold Rules!

[terencelaoshi]

PART 5

Paul, you have allowed the fine reputation of Real News to be damaged by airing this nonsense unchallenged.

Her 'analysis' is uncritical propoganda and media story-telling that panders to preconceived western notions of China.

I expected better from Real News.

[wdednam]

I don't care that you are an economics professor, but you've just got to have the logo of the WTO on your profile, don't you? Interesting... I hope you enjoyed the FAILURE of the last round of talks. I was absolutely ecstatic! I want the WTO, World Bank, IMF and associated faith-based science institutions to get the f*ck out of my country which they are helping in a big way to ruin! South Africa has seen a 22.2% decline in GDP per cap over the past 3 years. (cia world fact book) ...

[wdednam]

And don't chalk it up to AIDS either, the birthrate is only -0.5% at the moment and is decreasing at about -0.01% a year which could never cause such a collapse in GDP per cap. It hasn't in the European countries with bigger negative birthrates! The intellectual drab these institutions spout forth have consistently brought failure and ruin to countries who sought to follow their prescriptions. Russia in the 90s, the south east Asia financial crisis, Argentina 2001, now in the good 'ol US of A.

[terencelaoshi]

I hope you're feeling better.

[prayfertrey]

Preconceived? They must be using some awfully big words on the cartoon network these days!

[terencelaoshi]

PART 4

China is seeking the "latest technology and best toys" for security monitoring. Mind-blowing revelation, Naomi!

And America?

Your flagrant double standards are astounding.

China has acquired the latest finger-print technology after America banned exports? Shock, horror! Who do you think you're audience is ... impressionable teenagers?

Hi-tech monitoring ... only in China? Who are you trying to kid?

Disappointing to see this pap go unchallenged on Real News.

[HashyBee]

Ok, Number one, she is *Canadian!

And in CANADA have some of the best privacy standards in the world. Along with Germany. And in China? How about human rights for example?, Or free speech?

health care? freedom of assembly and religion?

security of the person? Should I go on?

What WOULD you like to defend other then the right of the Chinese people to live peaceful reasonably comfortable lives?

Because I can't think of a single thing about modern day China that's encouraging.

-CriticaloftheWest2

[prayfertrey]

Translation: It's so cute when girls comment on men's business.

[terencelaoshi]

PART 3

Re: Government monitoring women's periods.

Naomi, you are a disgrace. What highly-specific circumstance are you selectively recounting in order to make such a exciting claim?

You deserve China's approbation, women's disgust and viewer's condemnation for suggesting that this is a widespread or official practice.

You are nothing more than a scurrilous rumour-monger willing to denegrate anyone or anything in order to sustain your dubiously-achieved fame.

(cont)

[tokotokotoko3]

Why do you twist her words? She repeatedly says that Europe and the US is using those technologies.

The same about your claim that people choose to leave their villages. It's just a word game you're playing: do they leave because the city life is better, or because the village life in China is horrible and they face starvation?

It sounds as if you have some specific agenda/gain from your comments.

[terencelaoshi]

No ... not twisting her words at all. You are misunderstanding mine. Why does she rail against China having and using the same technologies. THAT is the essence of her ongoing and facile double standard.

The woman is not worthy of contribution to Real News.

[prayfertrey]

Because dictators aren't known for using tools for the common good?

[HashyBee]

You're an idiot.

[terencelaoshi]

... and your response speaks for itself. Congratulations!

[prayfertrey]

She deserves China's praise? I ask because "approbation" means, commendation or praise. You talk like a movie reviewer played by Sir John Gielgud.

[terencelaoshi]

PART 2

20 million people move to the cities each year ... not forced ... simply taking the opportunities that present themselves. Good for them!

As for displacement by progress .... never happens in the west? Get real!

And you might check the circumstances! The deal (in most cases) is very reasonable. In extreme cases, greedy officials have been put to death for what they have done to the peasants (but, of course, that's evil too, isn't it?) China can't win with the Naomis.

(cont)

[terencelaoshi]

Part 1

Reportage such as this really MUST be answered.

Klein's portrayal of migrant workers "roaming China looking for work" is a preposterous characterisation.

Here is a different take: China's incredible growth is providing opportunities for almost everyone who is able-bodied and capable. Many people are choosing (Note: CHOOSING) to leave their unproductive situation in rural areas and take gainful employment in the cities

(cont)

[GrownupPhan]

Sigh. She wasn't making a value judgment about migration to pursue economic opportunity. Obviously, that's something that has or is happening all over the world. She was focused on what that did to prior means of social monitoring and control and what the government is doing in response.

[terencelaoshi]

Gi back ... listen again ... and you can't miss the innuendo and mischaracterisation. She's a master class.

[magiorey]

Has Ms. Klein noticed that the chinese actually have the know-how to independently develop these technologies?, not selling it to them would not stop them from developing it.

[adventurenox]

That doesn't morally justify profiting off of the suppression of people's rights.

[magiorey]

of course not!!! I was merely pointing out that not selling it to them doesn't help stop them suppresing those rights, also, corporations aren't going to respect the prohibition if it stops them from making a profit, at the expense of people's rights...

[TheGoodnessIsGood]

Wow, it makes you realise how those women on most mass media channels (and the men actually) are just so damn stupid. You see plenty of guys on the web speaking out, but this is an intelligent aware women - cool - it's nice to feel that two sexes are on the same team. Kind of makes you think the honourability of the feminism movement was hijacked

[MooseOfReason]

Is she married?

[ThemowofChow]

Another great vid, thankyou so much

[ferrozm]

free markets CAN work and all those econ. students who simply repeat the keynesian mantra of free markets not possible have not read any austrian economists. All the people who have studied austrian econ predicted the bailouts predicted the break down of the bretton-woods agreement.The austrian have been right the keynesians have been wrong!!

[Eopyk]

Well.. to tell you the truth in human development ranking it is the mixed economic welfare states at the top like Norway and Iceland at the top. Total capitalism fails because it does not know that human beings are pack animals.. just as marxism-leneinism denied the individual those who want complete free market denies the pack. In a radical capitalist society cooperation and money becomes the dictator... where it control all from politics to peoples private lives. Mixed economy is the way

[ferrozm]

Only reason we are not at the top anymore is because we have drifted to corporatism. You do not describe capitalism accurately you buy into the simplistic propaganda. Capitalism is not a zero sum game, with capitalism the competition drives prices down. And people do cooperate in capitalist societies. Businesses fund scholarships they negotiate with farmers to make things more efficient. Voluntary contracts between two parties to make the most profit benefit society the most not a nanny state.

[wdednam]

Free markets will never work because they require perfect information, i.e. a perfect market, to work properly. Since nothing in this universe can ever be perfect, Information Assymmetries will ensure that they fail. It is a pipe dream just like communism was. Stiglitz won the Nobel prize for economics in 2001 for proving this mathematically. The Austrian theory lacks mathematical rigour, (see Wikipedia).

[jambon57]

Where did anyone say markets require "perfect" information? Markets provide extremely IMPORTANT information which is completely lacking in a planned economy which is why they fail. They can't get ANY prices right. Lacking prices which reflect actual demands planned economies piss away their resources because someone somewhere sitting at a desk "thinks" factory X should get more copper regardless of the fact that factory Y requires it more because they're producing goods people actually want.

[wdednam]

(1/2) For markets to allocate resources to their most efficient uses and produce fair and equitable outcomes as their proponents contend, you need perfect information and therefore markets that function like clockwork. Given that this is impossible you get the concentration of wealth and unequal outcomes seen today throughout the world as a result of thirty years of a failed market "ideology".

[wdednam]

(2/2) So, yes markets provide very IMPORTANT information to those clever enough to tweak them to suit their needs. So, if you don't mind living in a world with political instability and inequitable outcomes, and you are clever and privileged enough to successfully manipulate market information, then the imperfect market is for you.

[jambon57]

Free markets provide correct prices to virtually everyone involved. From mothers buying milk to industrialists purchasing commodities for manufacturing processes. It's called "getting the prices right" and it's impossible to conduct business of ANY kind without meaningful prices. Note that Canadian banks are in perfect shape because they are very conservatively managed. Royal Canadian Bank is up a billion dollars this quarter.

[zombiesoiree]

"Free markets provide correct prices to virtually everyone involved."

Why was oil so expensive in 2008? :) I think your faith in the accuracy of prices in real world capitalism is amazingly Pollyanna-ish.

[dakusahab]

no, its because of the resource boom due to rising oil prices and oil sands, the banks just made a great portion of that profit. Oil price has been less volatile in Canadian dollar terms. People are still driving and world still needs copper. Canada will continue to grow while U.S continues to decline. No conservative or liberal can save the American empire, its finished. China will takes its place as the new world dictator.

[vwguyaz87]

@dakusahab the fact that you call the US an empire shows how ignorant you are

[LogicalFlawDetector]

@wdednam

Information asymmetries are differences in amount of knowledge possessed by the parties to a transaction about that transaction. These asymmetries are eroding with improved technologies like the internet, satellite television and radio. People are now more knowledgeable and can take control of problems arising from asymmetries. You don't need perfect symmetry of information. I bet you wouldn't question the success of Hong Kong, the freest market, which beat UK in living standards.

[wdednam]

@LogicalFlawDetector "These asymmetries are eroding with improved technologies like the internet, satellite television and radio. People are now more knowledgeable and can take control of problems arising from asymmetries." That didn't seem to stop the ratings agencies from giving AAA ratings to the toxic mortgages that lead to the recession we are currently still in. They had all the information, or as much as they could possibly get. No, the problem isn't the amount of information...

[wdednam]

@LogicalFlawDetector part 2: Rather it is our severly limited "bounded rationality" according to nobel prize winning economist Herbert Simon, and which is actually pretty obvious, otherwise we would have already solved all the problems in the world. He and many other economists of the behaviouralist school (including many cognitive psychologists) have convincingly documented that we try to be rational, but our ability to be so is severely limited...

[wdednam]

@LogicalFlawDetector Part 3: See P. Ubel, Free market madness: Why human nature is at odds with economics - and why it matters (Harvard Business School press, Boston, 2009). Simon argues that the world is too complex for our limited intelligence to understand. So, very often the main problem in decision making is not the lack of info, but our limited ability to process it. The world is full of uncertainty, which is a basic tenet of quantum mechanics, by the way...

[wdednam]

@LogicalFlawDetector Part 4: Basically, we are not smart enough to leave the market to itself. See Ha Joon Chang's 23 things they don't tell you about capitalism, thing 16. In physics, the system, it is undefinable, that would constitute the world economy is an absolutely intractable many-body problem. It is not even possible to solve most problems involving simple molecules, and physics usually relies on simplifications in certain limits to describe systems in those limits...

[wdednam]

@LogicalFlawDetector Part 5: E.g., thermal properties of real gases at very low and very high temperatures, but which are impossible to characterize theoretically at ordinary temperatures. These are very simple systems that can be studied under strict laboratory conditions, which is definitely not the case for the global economy. So, just as we use empirical evidence to study real gases at ordinary temperatures, we need to use empirical evidence to study economies, and not simplified theories.

[andrepp1701]

Norway is top because of its vast natural resources, Iceland is a tiny highly educated state. The top performing states in relation to GDP per cap are Luxembourg, Ireland, Singapore and Switzerland; all highly capitalistic with low taxes.

[dustynbones]

She's describing the modern day REPIGZ. Snitches, Thugs, Thieves and Backstabbers.

[odin422]

I Boycott the Olympics

[Mennion3]

I have family in China, I'm Chinese myself. I lived in Hong Kong for a few years and what you describe, this kind of big brother society is completely foreign to me. There's heavy security because of terrorist threats, no different from the heavy security at all previous Olympic games but more so because of the larger population in China. Very strange things you're saying Ms. Klein

[toeg1]

Oh,

I'm not worried. The writing's on the wall. No US president EVER visited the Olympics being held in another country. NOT ONCE. Yet, this president says it would be "an insult" not to attend the ones in Beijing.

How did we get from "NEVER ATTEND IN OTHER COUNTRIES" to "BETTER ATTEND OR IT'S AN INSULT."

Just who would we be insulting???

Things that make ya go hmmmmmm.......................­.

[toeg1]

This shows how China OWNS the US. The first time in history that a sitting president has attending the games held in a foreign country. Often they didn't even bother with the games held in the US.

I sure hope Bush can kiss butt well. I don't want our new masters to think that we don't know how to grovel correctly. I wonder how long he has to kiss abs before they let him go home. Since he does nothing in the White House, it's not like he's being missed.

[danthemango]

not yet, just wait

[patient0Studios]

Infundad you basically just explained the entire Marxist Theory of Capitalist Crisis and Revolution. :) be proud,

[vryheid88]

Naomi Klein, your nemesis Milton Friedman was AGAINST the Iraq war, as is Russian and China. These facts destroys your shock doctrine theory! You do make a few important and valuable points. Here is something to chew on: differentiate between corporatism or soft fascism and true capitalism a la Ron Paul: big difference between the two! 100% with you on critique on corporatism.

[lordblazer]

there will never be truly free markets because it'll never work. How do I know? I'm an economics student.

[jakewayd]

I think you're right. I'm studying a lot of history, and it seems to always be the case that there is an autocratic family or individual controlling the civilized world. Today's patriarchs are the Rockefellers and Rothschilds whose power is absolute. Florence had the Medicis of the 15th century. The best we can hope for is that the autocracy is wise leading to prosperity for humanity, much like in the Renaissance after the collapse of the Black Guelph monopoly.

[lastnymleft]

"there will never be truly free markets because it'll never work."

It doesn't *have* to be *fully* free to work. We can make great strides towards true capitalism, and have things work *MUCH* better just by eschewing obvious corporatist pillars:

* No corporate bailouts!

* No corporate welfare/subsidies!

* No managed "free" trade agreements, like NAFTA

* No biz/gov revolving door

* Etc

"How do I know? I'm an economics student"

I hope you are reading the Austrians. Von Mises, Hayek, Rothbard.

[charlessmyth]

And don't forget George Reisman: Capitalism, A Treatise on Economics.

[wdednam]

I personally prefer Jospeph Stiglitz to some ancient Economic philosophers like the "Austrians". Didn't Stiglitz win the Nobel prize for economics in 2001 for mathematically proving that free markets could never work because markets can never be perfect and information assymmetries would always make it fail. No wonder economics students wouldn't believe that free markets could work.

[wdednam]

@lastnymleft "It does not have to be fully free to work". How can you make such a non-sensical claim, it is not a verifiable scientific hypothesis. How can you determine what the optimum level of "freeness" is, when it is undefined scientifically? Unfortunately, that is just the reason why there can never be a free market, or one that can be defined scientifically as being free. It is just political decisions, and therefore claims that the "free" market "works" amount to political rhetoric.

[senorfish4]

That's something to think about but sadly, the possibility of a true capitalism existing in our life time seems very unlikely. We, as Americans, messed up bad. The Fed, IMF, WTO, own us and the world. Maybe in the next life.

[vryheid88]

Nope, the security state, whether capitalistic or socialistic or communistic, is out of fear that the social order may be overhauled. China is a mixed economy, not capitalistic. They will have more freedom over time. Harmony is important in Asia, so they do not want a radical, overnight transformation, rather step by step. There are much more civil liberties suppression in socialistic than in capitalistic societies.

[ubuibiok]

And the beat goes on...83 to 84% of the USA Voting public think the NWO is a "Crack Pot" Idea.

They, as a whole, almost always dismiss Conspiracy Theories as Dreams spouted by nut jobs. Less then 99% of them have ever read the

USA PATRIOT Act and believe it is aimed at foreigners. It was written to enhance the ability of domestic security services inside America and basically abolished the Bill of Rights...

[infundadiform]

the america voting public is so inform that 75% cannot to this day find iraq on a world map.look who is the republican nominee? mc cian in the 90's had every view on foriegn policy as obama. its all bullshit. when people have it good they do very little in politics but when you push them to much or times are too difficult they explode and no amount of government control will stop them. china will explode eventually.

[ubuibiok]

LOL...you see were McCain made a gaffe were said terrorist were entering Iraq from Pakistan ?

[Spade0007]

The Source save us all in the World of greeed and corruption--May The Protection of the Source be upon me ----

[bbburton]

Let's not kid ourselves. Gov will always tell us that they know what's in our best interest, and that spying on us is the only way to keep us safe. This is the lie that steals freedom and liberty. People are safer with their freedom and liberty than without them. It's time to stop believing the gov, and time to reclaim that which is ours by divine right, not gov privilege.

[Transitiving]

This is a good story but it doesn't have anything to do with capitalism. I wish these people that hate on capitalism would consider what the people in the countries they claim to be looking out for think. Are people in china unhappy with the advances toward capitalism that the country has made? Klein has made up her mind and doesn't care what they think or if their lives have changed for the better

[tamilanblog]

I agree

[HashyBee]

So this is part 2?

Are you guys releasing one part per day?

I wish you would have just answered when I messaged you. :P

Seriously though, I love what you're doing. But would it hurt to give a quick this will be uploaded at X time.

Or is this part 2 of what's in brackets.

China Buys Tools of War on Terror?

Anyway, it's great to see Noami Klein at all.

[jakewayd]

Anarcho-Fascism is as oxymoronic as Democratic-Republican today. The marriage of corporations and government, definitional fascism, is the prime cause of corrupt and evil in our world. Without corporate influence on the violence monopoly (the definition of government), the free market is free to kill off irrational business activity. Naomi, you are a twit, and it's become very obvious that you're using the Real News as your own propaganda outlet. Go to Hell.

[screwuguysgoinghome]

judging from what ive seen in the video, i dont think klein would disagree with anything youve said, so im not sure why youre angry with her. maybe im missing something.

[abilityoflove]

Anarcho-Fascism is an oxymoron, but the anarcho-fascist capitalism is not, because the present capitalism contains this dichotomy.

[greenbean1984]

good interview.

noami is a clever chick

[abilityoflove]

In the anarcho-fascist capitalism money is spent on security, control and wars, rather than dealing with the cause of the problem, which is the lack of humanity.